Simon Sinek: Is A.I. a Threat to Human Connection? EP 1478

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.com – Simon is a spark that ignites passion and ideas. He envisions a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work they do. As an unshakeable optimist, he believes in our ability to build this world together. A trained ethnographer, Simon is fascinated by the people and organizations that make the greatest and longest lasting impact. Over the years, he has discovered some remarkable patterns about how they think, act, and communicate, and also the environments in which people operate at their natural best. In this episode you will learn,How to strike a balance between AI and empathy in relationshipsThe importance of critical thinking in the age of AIHow to use AI responsibly and ethically in your work and personal lifeWhy boundaries are so important for every kind of relationshipHow to avoid in-person isolation in a time where virtual connection is effortlessFor more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1478For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More relationship building advice from some of our favorite relationship experts:Esther Perel: https://link.chtbl.com/1291-podFaith Jenkins: https://link.chtbl.com/1221-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection, I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness, this September 7th through 9th, in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio, to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Josprey Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sanchero, and many more. You'll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com/summit2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there.

• 1:01Simon Sinek?

  This whole idea of setting boundaries, you know, it gets a little bit misunderstood. Like, everybody thinks you have to set boundaries, which means, "Keep people away, I refuse to do that, that's beyond my boundary, I'm not doing that." No, no, no, that's not what boundaries mean. What boundaries means are, let me tell you what I imagine and what my limitations are. We have boundaries in relationships, right? You sit down with your partner, you co-create the relationship that you want to have, and if you're a good relationship, you discuss what the boundaries are that you both agree to obey. So I hear what the boundaries are you want, you understand the things that I need, and we come to an agreement and say, "Yes, those are the boundaries."

• 1:43Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 2:07Lewis Howes?

  One of the things I love about you is how intelligent you are and also vulnerable you are. I think that's a rare combination because usually people lean one way or the other, but you're really great at mixing both of them.

• 2:19Simon Sinek?

  Oh, thank you.

• 2:21Lewis Howes?

  And I wanted to ask you a question that I think has been an interesting conversation, specifically in the last three to six months. That includes relationships, work, AI, and leadership.

• 2:35Simon Sinek?

  Okay.

• 2:35Lewis Howes?

  There's been a lot of, in my opinion, distractions over the last few years. Of all the new shiny things that come out that are available for us at work, at home, and in relationships. And I'm curious, with everything that you've seen in the last few years, all the different distractions that have come out in life,

• 2:57Lewis Howes?

  where do you see intimacy in relationships, personally and also professionally, in the workplace as AI starts to evolve in everywhere?

• 3:11Simon Sinek?

  So,

• 3:14Simon Sinek?

  let's just take one step back.

• 3:20Simon Sinek?

  The concept of AI is not new. It's an algorithm, right? And our lives since the early days of the internet have been governed by algorithms.

• 3:31Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 3:32Simon Sinek?

  Right? What's an algorithm? Let's start there.

• 3:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 3:36Simon Sinek?

  Right? We talk about algorithms every day. It's in our vernacular, but what is it? An algorithm is very simply

• 3:45Simon Sinek?

  a set of instructions. Mathematical or computer code, it's a set of instructions. That's all it is, right? So a recipe is an algorithm. Two eggs, cup of milk, some flour. What you get is that. And so, you know, the algorithm, a set of instructions is, you know, Lewis went on Amazon and bought this, show him that. Right? That's all it is. It's a list of instructions to solve a problem or to generate some sort of result.

• 4:17Simon Sinek?

  And so there's been artificial intelligence around us for a long time. You know, if you go back to the early days of, you know, Ask Jeeves, which was pre-Google, right? Didn't work very well. Right. And you had to write in full sentences. And so Google was invented a different algorithm that worked a different way, that you could put in less information and you could get the thing that you're more likely to be looking for. Right? And the goal was always that you'd find what you're looking for in the first page. Remember back in the early days, you'd sometimes have to scroll a few pages. Right? So they're constantly improving these lists and instructions and tell the computer what to do with a certain input. I think the thing that's new is the generative AI. Right? Where the the machine can sort of,

• 5:02Simon Sinek?

  A, it sounds like Star Trek. You know, it's like it speaks in normal language that you don't have to, you don't have to type in Google. You know, it's Google's a language. You know, you type in the keywords you want. You don't have to split in complete sentences. But now you talk to another human being and it tells you what you want. But it's still based on existing information. The thing that scares me about AI is the thing that I think scares everybody about generative AI. And the and this is the speed at which this algorithm can work and the speed at which it can invent things. But is that something to be scared about or more excited about? Both. The answer is both. And I think anybody who comes on one side or the other of the equation is missing the point. You know, there's a cost for everything.

• 5:45Simon Sinek?

  And for all the benefits of anything in our lives, there's always a cost. You want to make a lot of money. That's your drive. You know, you want to get rich and become a millionaire. Okay, there's a cost for the money you make. You're going to sacrifice relationships. You're going to sacrifice sleep. You're going to sacrifice your health. Who knows what it is. Right? But you're going to pay for that in some way, shape or form. It's a balanced equation. Right? So the more fantastic the benefits of any technology, the the balanced equation has to be considered. Interesting. Is it worth all the benefits if it's going to cost this much? Right? And we're looking at climate change now and industrialization. Like, all the benefits industrialization, was it worth the cost? I think some of us would have preferred to maybe scale back some of that and not deal with what we're dealing with now. Right?

• 6:28Simon Sinek?

  So I think we have to do a cost analysis, which is, I want this, but at what cost? Are we, I want this, but at the cost of undermining a democracy? Oh, that seems like a steep cost. For something to write a book for me, you know? Like, I'm not sure. And at least as it exists now, it's useless for original thoughts. So people ask me all the time, are you scared of it? I'm like, absolutely not, not scared of it at all. Because if you ask AI to write a book in the style of Simon Sinek, you know, on any subject, it can only draw from what I've already written, but it can't give them a new thought. Doesn't bring new perspective. There's no new ideas, right?

• 7:09Simon Sinek?

  It will do some things that I think are really interesting. It'll change the balance of jobs. So for example, if you work in public relations or if you're a, you know, even a scriptwriter, whatever it is, you know, there is fear of AI, of course. Again, can't do general, it can't do new ideas. Right. But a lot of ideas are not new, you know? Still like an artist. We package it, yeah. But like, take, take, let's take a PR company, for example, right? It takes a lot of time to write that first draft, right? And you need a good writer to write a first draft. What will happen with AI is AI can write the first draft in instantaneously.

• 7:51Simon Sinek?

  So like in my world and writing, you know this from writing a book, the writer's the hero, the editors like the hired help. Right. Right? That'll switch, which not for new ideas, but for ideas that don't require novelty. Sure. Write a press release that, you know? Has four bullet points, it talks about the benefits. Right. The editors will become the heroes because the AI can write the first draft. Interesting. So I think that balance will change. But to go back to your original question, you know,

• 8:21Simon Sinek?

  to go back to your original question, one of the conversations that's not happening about any of this, we're not talking at all about social ripples. And there are always social ripples, right? And there's a, and there's a blindness. People are blind when it comes to how we talk about new things, right? And, and when I talk about social ripples, what I mean is fear, right? Fear is an emotion. It is sometimes irrational, not always, sometimes irrational. And it can produce behaviors that can be antisocial. If you're afraid enough, you can hurt someone, right? You can hurt them with your words, you can hurt them with your actions based on fear. Right? We've all said things in relationships out of fear, right?

• 9:06Simon Sinek?

  So let's take an analogy. A bunch of do-gooders come into a town in Ohio, coal town, and say, we're getting rid of this coal mine. It's bad for the environment. We're going to replace it with solar and wind. And it's the right thing to do. They're always surprised when the town of coal miners is angrily against it. Right. Now, the reality is they're not anti-winds, nor are they anti-solar. All I know is I'm a coal miner. My father was a coal miner. My father's father was a coal miner. All I know is how to do coal mining. And all I know is, is this mine down the street produces income for me to take care of my family. And you're coming in here and say, we're going to take your income away. Right. We're not getting rid of coal and taking rid of your livelihood.

• 9:50Simon Sinek?

  And you have no discernible skill set. What you get is fear. And when somebody doesn't feel seen or heard, and they feel afraid that you're coming in to take something away from them, they're going to put up a wall and say, you cannot do that, right? That's the same thing going on here, which is, all the discussion is all the job that's going to take away. All the things it's going to destroy, right? And so what it's producing is fear. And when you have fear, you have emotional reactions that have nothing to do with computers, nothing to do with algorithms, nothing to do with generative AI. What it has to do with, at the minimum, is how I vote. But worse, it can get people so afraid

• 10:34Simon Sinek?

  that they start lashing out in antisocial ways, sometimes as individuals and sometimes as groups, right? And we are not talking about the social ripples. We're also living in a world where the haves and the have-nots, the richest people and your frontline worker, the disparity is so great, right? The average, so if you go back, I think. Fifty years or so, forty years or so. On average, a CEO made about thirty-five times what the lowest-paid worker. And now you're talking four hundred, five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred times, eight hundred times lowest-paid workers, right? The disparity is so great. One percent of the population owns eighty percent of the stock, you know? I mean, it's just, it's, it's so great.

• 11:18Simon Sinek?

  And when you have huge gaps between the wealthy and those who work to make the wealthy wealthy, that is a recipe for rebellion. So we already are living in a tinderbox right now, where this is, this is normal, right? And it's, it's, and we've seen the rise of this populist message. I don't care you're Republican or Democrat. We heard it from Trump. We heard it from Bernie Sanders, right? They're pointing out the disparity. And, and the liberals loved Bernie and the conservatives loved Trump, right? Because they're saying, look what, look what, look what's happening. And unfortunately, in both cases, a leveraging fear for a vote.

• 12:00Simon Sinek?

  But we're not talking about the fear that the discussion of AI is producing and the very, the reactions that can have has nothing to do with a computer.

• 12:09Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 12:10Simon Sinek?

  We're not talking about that.

• 12:10Lewis Howes?

  What are the, what are the fear conversations that you're hearing from people? And what are the emotions that are coming out of it at the early stages? And where do you think that's good ahead over the next few years?

• 12:26Simon Sinek?

  Nobody's listening. You know, again, it goes back to that coal miner example, right? Well-intentioned people can come in and say, this is something that's important to the environment, but we understand this is highly disruptive to your life. We're not going to take anything away, but that's, I want to hear how you feel.

• 12:46Lewis Howes?

  They're not, they're not asking those questions.

• 12:48Simon Sinek?

  They're not asking questions. They're not trying to understand the fear. They're not making people feel seen or heard or understood. They're just coming in, you know, they're barreling in. And by the way, this is both sides of the political aisle. Both sides of the political aisle are barreling in with their, their, their desires without listening to the people who it's going to affect, right? And then they're surprised that people are angry and put up a, a roadblock. And so, to answer your question, it's not happening. Those conversations aren't happening. There is a total lack of listening in our nation. There's a total lack of empathy in our nation. You know, we're now living in a world of you're right and I'm right and you're wrong. Rather than than we have a problem and we should be you and me against the problem rather than me against you.

• 13:34Lewis Howes?

  Which is like a healthy, conscious intimate relationship, but they teach you in therapy.

• 13:38Simon Sinek?

  Correct. And you'll find a lot of overlaps in the stuff that we're going to talk about if you want to talk mass population.

• 13:42Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 13:43Simon Sinek?

  And intimate relationships. It's interesting. It's human beings talking to human beings.

• 13:47Lewis Howes?

  Do you think that we will ever, as a nation, at least in this country, be able to say, hey, how do we come together and focus on the problem? Not you're right and you're wrong? Or do you think it's politics create so much of a division that people just, there'll be too much fear for people to actually listen to both sides? Not even talking about politics, but just about AI or relationships or business or wealth or whatever it might be. Do you think we'll ever be able to do that?

• 14:13Simon Sinek?

  Do you know when people come together and put all their political differences aside?

• 14:17Lewis Howes?

  War?

• 14:17Simon Sinek?

  Correct.

• 14:19Lewis Howes?

  That's kind of scary, though.

• 14:21Simon Sinek?

  When we are challenged by an external existential threat.

• 14:25Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 14:26Simon Sinek?

  We come together, right? We saw it happen after September 11th. We saw that, you know, Osama bin Laden believed that by flying planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, that it would fracture America. It did the absolute opposite.

• 14:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 14:42Simon Sinek?

  Right? Because there's one thing greater than my fear of you is the fear of that. And we saw it during the first rendition of the Cold War. The fear of the Soviet Union and the nuclear war at the Soviet Union.

• 14:58Simon Sinek?

  Even though there was politics and there was territoriality and the armed forces and all of the nonsense that still exists today. At the end of the day, we could all agree on one thing. That's worse. So I can put, we can put our differences aside because that's worse. And so the mistake that America made when the Berlin Wall came down and the Soviet Union collapsed is we falsely believed that we had won the war.

• 15:24Simon Sinek?

  There's no such thing as winning global politics. It's like the Roman Empire doesn't exist, but the physical land still exists and the people who were Romans are now Italians. It's like, nobody went away, they just changed forms. It's like the law of conservation of matter, the law of conservation of energy, and there's a law of conservation of people. Right. Right? People don't disappear because the empire is gone. The empire is a, is a, is a political construction. And so, we didn't win anything. The Soviet Union collapsed, but the people are still there and the culture is still there and the land is still there.

• 15:59Simon Sinek?

  And America acted like victors. And what always happens in an infinite game, what always happens in a game that has no end, is new players will emerge. It's like when one company goes bankrupt, it doesn't mean the game of business is over, which means new companies will fill the space. Well, new nations fill the space. And so, the, the threats that challenged America showed up in the form of North Korea, in the form of global terrorism, you know, Al Qaeda and ISIS and all other spinoffs. And I think that global competition is actually a very good thing. It's scary, it creates tension, but the irony is, is we as capitalists, because America

• 16:40Simon Sinek?

  believes in capitalism and democracy, we as capitalists believe that competition is ultimately good for the consumer and we have laws against monopolies. Well, America for 30 years was acting like a monopoly, like the cable company. Everybody hated you, you had no choice. Right. You know, and you can impose your will on the consumer willy nilly, which America imposed its will on the world willy nilly with no reaction. And so, I actually think the rise of a, of a, of a balance of power, a competition, is probably the best thing that can happen to America. Doesn't have to lead, it doesn't have to be war. It doesn't have to be war, but it does have to be

• 17:23Simon Sinek?

  somebody who offers a legitimate challenge to the power structure. Why do you think?

• 17:30Lewis Howes?

  In our personal lives, it takes a near-death experience to us or someone around us, a big health scare, a divorce, a breakup, or a massive breakdown in career or something, for us to see a new path and start improving who we are, becoming better, transforming, overcoming this breakdown. And why does it sound like it takes war or conflict or something extremely scary out there for us to come together and start to transform as well as people?

• 18:04Simon Sinek?

  You know, we're a myopic bunch, you know? Human beings are very dopamine-driven, you know? Find the food, look for shelter, you know? Then do it again. And long-term planning is not really our strength as a species, because long-term planning exists in our imaginations. I better save money for the day that I retire 60 years from now.

• 18:31Simon Sinek?

  You know? It's just like, well, or I could just buy now, because it feels better, right? We're just, we're bad at it. We're bad as governments at it, we're bad as individuals at it, we're just bad at it. We're not engineered for it. And so I think, I think that's a part of it. And what near-death experiences do, or competitive threats do, is they're tangible reminders of what could be. Because we're, again, we're tangibly driven animals, right? We love tangibility metrics, things we can see, you know, you hear a bump in the night, you have to go look for it, you know? And so it makes it real.

• 19:13Simon Sinek?

  So even though global threats have existed since the fall of the Soviet Union, now that you can see one, you know? Now you can give it a name and a flag, you know, and a language, it becomes a real thing. And I think the same goes for near-death experiences. It's like my mortality, which was something that I didn't think about, is now real, which is why I ask, ask old people for advice. They give the best advice, because they don't give a what you think about them. Because they're close because they've accepted their their own mortality.

• 19:46Lewis Howes?

  The end is near.

• 19:46Simon Sinek?

  The end is near. And so I'm not doing anything to please you anymore.

• 19:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I'm not trying to impress you.

• 19:51Simon Sinek?

  You know, talk to a 20 year old and talk to a 70 year old and see what kind of advice you get.

• 19:56Simon Sinek?

  And it's not just experience and wisdom. Of course, that factors in as well. You know, one is much more concerned about what you think about them. The other one really doesn't care.

• 20:06Simon Sinek?

  So I think I think that's what these these shocks do. And I think one of the things that storytelling does, one of the things that you do and I do and others do, is by telling the stories of other people's near death experiences or other people's

• 20:20Simon Sinek?

  losses. Hopefully, hopefully inspires people to take on themselves without having to go through the challenge themselves.

• 20:33Simon Sinek?

  That's the ideal. But, you know, I remember after September 11th, I was in New York on September 11th and lived through it.

• 20:39Lewis Howes?

  You were there?

• 20:40Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, I watched the buildings fall.

• 20:42Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 20:42Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:43Lewis Howes?

  Where? What part is?

• 20:44Simon Sinek?

  I was downtown. I was in Soho.

• 20:46Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 20:46Simon Sinek?

  So just about I was I actually did the calculations. I figured out I was exactly one mile.

• 20:50Lewis Howes?

  You could see the buildings?

• 20:51Simon Sinek?

  From my office. Yeah, I watched. I was I was walking. I took the subway and the subway stopped at 14th Street and I still had to get to Soho. So I walked down 7th Avenue, which the end of 7th Avenue was the World Trade Center.

• 21:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:04Simon Sinek?

  And so I was walking down, watching them burning.

• 21:06Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow.

• 21:06Simon Sinek?

  And then got to work.

• 21:09Simon Sinek?

  And the view from my office was the World Trade Center.

• 21:11Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 21:12Simon Sinek?

  And yeah, I remember. I remember the very strange. Yeah, that's in that's that's in Boston, my brain. I'm not going to forget that image of it.

• 21:20Lewis Howes?

  What was that? I mean, this is a little sidetrack here, but what was that day like? I mean, watching it at your office. What was the scene like? Were people paying attention? Was ever all eyes on the building?

• 21:33Simon Sinek?

  Of course, of course, of course.

• 21:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:37Simon Sinek?

  We were, you know, at this point, we when I woke up in the morning, because the first plane hit shortly after 8 a.m. and I hadn't left the house yet.

• 21:45Lewis Howes?

  Had you already heard about it?

• 21:46Simon Sinek?

  Well, it was on the news. A friend of mine called me and he says, turn on the news. So I turned on the news. And there was a hole in the World Trade Center and it was burning. But the scale of those buildings is so huge that we couldn't tell that it was an airliner. We thought it was a Cessna. So you saw a hole in the building. The building was so big, you literally just thought it was in. And it was a beautiful day. So it's not like there was a storm. It was a perfect day. So we just thought it was an idiot in Assesna, and I went to work. And people started to talk about it on the bus, I was taking the cross town bus, like, you know, did you see what happened? And by the time I got off the subway on 14th Street, because, you know, media disappears under the ground.

• 22:27Simon Sinek?

  Now there were people sitting on the sides of the street, listening to radios in their cars. And at this point now, we started to realize this was terrorism. So we started to recognize what it was pretty quickly, but we didn't know what the implications were. And we also didn't expect the buildings to fall down. You know, it was a weird flaw in how the buildings were made that made them, because, you know, most buildings had internal load-bearing structures. And what made the World Trade Center unique was all the load-bearing structures were on the outside. And so the floors basically floated in the middle.

• 22:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:55Simon Sinek?

  So except for the escal- except for the elevators, though, you could stand on one side of the World Trade Center inside and look clearer over to the side of the building. You know, it was amazing building.

• 23:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 23:04Simon Sinek?

  And so they collapsed on top of each other when it came down, which nobody knew would happen.

• 23:12Simon Sinek?

  And so

• 23:15Simon Sinek?

  I was in constant contact with my sister, who worked also in Soho across town.

• 23:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 23:19Simon Sinek?

  And we were talking constantly, and after the second building fell, I called her up and said, I'm coming to get you, we're gonna go home. And we lived uptown. And so I walked across town to get her. And we were part of the mass exodus, walking four miles uptown. And of all the thousands of images that were captured that day,

• 23:42Simon Sinek?

  one image I, and I went through all the books and everything, you know,

• 23:46Simon Sinek?

  one image that was really never captured was this, it was very quiet. We were all walking in one direction, just imagine thousands of people, no cars on the road, walking north.

• 23:59Lewis Howes?

  No one in the subway. Yeah, everyone's just like.

• 24:01Simon Sinek?

  Everybody's above ground and we're all going, it was very quiet and speckled in between all of this exodus, where people covered head to toe in soot.

• 24:11Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:11Simon Sinek?

  But other than that, everything was normal. They were holding their briefcase and their newspaper, and it was just covered in, in debris. They were covered. I mean, we saw the pictures of people covered, but they were just speckled. And my sister, she had two colleagues, which we dropped them off on the way. And I remember there was all four of us and we were coming up Park Avenue and there's a guy sitting on a stoop frantically calling somebody, I guess to tell them that, that he was alive. Frantically calling. And we walked up to him and we said, give us the number. No words were spoken. We just, I remember, we just walked up and said, give us the number, we'll help call. And he held up his address book. He just pointed. He didn't have words.

• 24:56Simon Sinek?

  We all typed in the number into our phones and we're hitting, you know, send, send, send, send, send. Every single one of us was trying to call. We were all getting busy signals. My sister's phone got through. She hands him the phone. He takes it and he says, "I'm okay, I'm okay," and gives the phone back and walks away.

• 25:16Simon Sinek?

  And we're all crying, obviously. Um, we dropped off two of my sister's friends, colleagues, and it was just my sister and me walking up the rest of the way. And we got to, uh, uh, Grand Central Station, which blocks Park Avenue. So you have to go around it. And as we got there, somebody started screaming, run, run, run. And we saw the cops, because there were fighter jets flying over. So you've heard planes, but you didn't know what they were. So you've heard planes flying over. And, and we looked down, uh, the street and the cops were going like this. And everybody started running and like dropping things and shoes falling off. They thought another plane had hit. We didn't know what it was. So I grabbed my sister and I like,

• 25:59Simon Sinek?

  and I'm thinking to myself, okay, there's gonna be a blast. It's gonna come down like this. And I pulled her off the street and like, put our hands, you know, like, like up against the building. And I look up and it's a huge glass. You know, it's a, it's a shop window. And I'm like, this is not gonna be good. So I grabbed her and we just start running and then eventually just sort of petered out. It was a bomb scare, it turned out later. And then we made our way to the rest of the, we made our way back up town and didn't leave for, you know, two weeks, you know, we just, like everybody just started watching television obsessed.

• 26:29Lewis Howes?

  Nonstop, yeah. Holy cow. Did you guys, did you go back to work or did you ever say like, work was done for weeks?

• 26:35Simon Sinek?

  Work was done for weeks and when it opened up, like nobody really wanted to go. And my, my office was in part of the town, in part of the New York that was shut down. Like you couldn't, you couldn't get there.

• 26:46Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow.

• 26:46Simon Sinek?

  They wouldn't let you down there.

• 26:48Lewis Howes?

  How did that moment of being there, ground zero, really shape you emotionally after that? After experiencing it in person? You know, I was in, I was a freshman in college when I saw it on TV and it was like, it was a big deal in Minnesota when I was in college there. It was like, you know, the whole city came together, it was the whole thing, but you were there. How did that shape you emotionally?

• 27:09Simon Sinek?

  My story is one of literally, you know, a couple million. I mean, there was a lot of people in New York that day.

• 27:16Simon Sinek?

  And they're all pretty unique stories, but they're all deeply touching and deeply personal for all of us. I mean, you said it. I mean, it reminds you of humanity and it reminds you, you know. And I remember that was, it was September 11th was very important to me in my career because I worked in advertising. And I, I struggled to go back to that stupid job and that stupid industry.

• 27:34Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 27:35Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. I really, once I did go back to work, I'm like,

• 27:39Simon Sinek?

  what am I doing with my life? Like, it's like, and a lot of people signed up for the military because they're like, I gotta do something with my life. And I think a lot of people had the realization that the life that I live is stupid and I want to do something that matters. And that's when I started thinking this, this is the stupidest industry in the world. Like I come to work to help people sell they don't need, like what the doing with my life? And my entrepreneurial venture started pretty shortly after that. So I could do things my way.

• 28:05Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 28:06Simon Sinek?

  And do things with purpose and started talking about things in a, in a, in a very different way. So yeah, it was pretty formative.

• 28:12Lewis Howes?

  I mean, and it took unfortunately a big breakdown to happen for you to start seeing, maybe you'd already noticed it, but that was to really be the eye opening, like, okay, I've got to make a change.

• 28:22Simon Sinek?

  But go back to your original question, you know, which is why does it require these things? I think, I think that's not interesting to me. I mean, I think that's sort of like, I get it. Uh huh. I think what is interesting to me is why does it go back? Right, like when you have that life-changing experience and then you've You don't make a change. You do. No, no, you do make a change, but then it runs out. So I saw this happen after after September 11th in New York for for quite a quite a long time. I would say months. Uh, New York was utopia. There was no crime. None. Everyone came together. Everyone came together. There was literally no crime. Everyone loved each other, strangers. What do you need? I'm here for you. Nothing. And like, the total number of racially motivated crimes in New York after September 11th was zero.

• 29:05Simon Sinek?

  So Nukdei like took their anger out on, you know, an Arab population, for example, just didn't just didn't happen. And um. And I remember thinking to myself, this is gonna go away. Like, we're gonna forget. And we're just gonna go back to being New York again. And sure enough, in enough time, we got distracted by the short term. So this COVID was no different. In the middle of COVID, we're all thinking, oh, my God, you know, I have to reevaluate my life, my work-life balance. You know, I don't want to work like a crazy person like I used to anymore. Productivity is not gonna be my my primary, you know, metric of whether I'm having a good day or not. And that went away. You know, we're all working like idiots again and like productivity is like people look down on you now if you're not having a productive day like we forget.

• 29:51Simon Sinek?

  And again, it's this, the biology of the dopamine-driven animal that is more driven by the short term and the visual.

• 29:59Simon Sinek?

  That to me upsets me more. It's not that it not that the that you need some sort of shock to convert, but that the conversion doesn't last. Right. And so, you know. You you were sort of, you were joking about my orange watch and, uh. You know, I I use symbols to remind me. And so I'm I'm surrounded. I'm like an orange belt and like, you know, I I. I keep things around me to remind me that these things matter and I tell the stories. And I tell the story of going to Afghanistan with the Air Force. I tell the story of, you know. My experience is central element that it's not, it's in part to remind others, but it's also in part to remind me. Yeah.

• 30:42Simon Sinek?

  You know, my sister suffered a horrible tragedy many years ago where she lost her fiance. He was killed right in front of her two weeks before her wedding. Oh, my goodness. And during COVID, she came to me and said, I think I want to talk about my experience on the podcast because I know a lot of people are losing loved ones. And perhaps my experience can help them. And, you know, again, it's in part for others, but reliving that horrible day with her

• 31:11Simon Sinek?

  is a reminder to us as well that our relationship matters and our friends matter and our lives matter and long term matters and, you know, and productivity is not the primary metric of a good day.

• 31:27Simon Sinek?

  And the ability to, I think, you know, it talked about the 20 year old versus the 70 year old, you know, it's the ability to shut out the noise, the peer pressure

• 31:40Simon Sinek?

  that judges you based on how much have you accomplished, how much money have you made, how many promotions have you had, what's your salary, you know? Like, we're judging our self-worth based on what other people pay us. And sure, everybody wants to make more money. I got it, you know?

• 31:59Lewis Howes?

  What should we judge our self-worth on?

• 32:02Simon Sinek?

  The life that we live.

• 32:05Simon Sinek?

  I think we should judge our self-worth on the value we have in the lives of others. Do other people think of you as a good friend, a good sibling, a good son or daughter? You know, a good father, a good mother, good colleague, a good teammate, you know? I think that I would rather be, I would rather judge myself

• 32:33Simon Sinek?

  on that. And again, we're dopamine, tangible, driven animals. It's much easier to judge myself based on number in a bank account because I can see it and I can count it. And if there's a lot in there, it must be valuable. And if there's little in there, that must be unvaluable, which is nonsense because I can tell you, I know a lot of rich people who have no value in the world.

• 32:51Simon Sinek?

  And rich people aren't necessarily the hardest working. I know a lot of very rich people who are lazy. And I don't criticize them for that. Just don't think that because someone's rich that they're incredibly hardworking. And please stop calling the homeless lazy. You go be homeless for a day. See how lazy you have to be, you know, to survive with no money, no resources. Good luck. It just, the laziness isn't, that's not it. Like, you actually have to work hard at surviving when you have nothing. And I think we have all of these metrics screwed up and they're all based on what I can count and what I can see, rather than the value I have in the lives of others. And by the way, you don't even get to judge that. Because the only way you know

• 33:35Simon Sinek?

  you have value in the lives of others is if others say you have value in their lives.

• 33:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:40Simon Sinek?

  So that's a thing, right?

• 33:44Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious about your sister's story. That's really heartbreaking, but also fascinating, that she wanted to say, hey, maybe I can help other people through my own tragedy, through my heartbreak, through my loss.

• 33:57Simon Sinek?

  And the person she is.

• 33:59Lewis Howes?

  What was that, what was the lesson that you learned, you not going through it yourself, but witnessing someone that you loved go through a loss like that? What was the lesson for you?

• 34:13Simon Sinek?

  You know, I'm, there's a silver, I talk about balance all the time. There's a silver lining in every cloud. There's a cost for everything we gain in life, but at the same time, there's goodness that comes out of every loss. My sister and I were already pretty close. I mean, it made us even closer. My family and I were, my family and us were also already pretty close. We got even closer. I think tragedy brings families together in a way that nothing else can.

• 34:42Simon Sinek?

  Perspective. You know, the stupid stuff that we got stressed about just isn't that important. You know?

• 34:51Simon Sinek?

  There's something called post-traumatic growth. We love talking about post-traumatic stress, but there's also post-traumatic growth. There's a lot of growth that comes out of loss and tragedy as well.

• 35:08Simon Sinek?

  I think, yeah, I think these things, I mean, you said it right at the top, right? It's the fragility of, of why do we need these reminders? So I think that was a big one.

• 35:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Simon Sinek?

  And, uh, you know, my sister's happily married, got two kids, you know, built a new life and that's super inspiring.

• 35:26Lewis Howes?

  That's right.

• 35:27Simon Sinek?

  That, you know, people go through breakups or divorces and they think that's it. Their life is over. They'll never find love again. I'm like, well, here to tell you.

• 35:34Lewis Howes?

  She created it, yeah.

• 35:35Simon Sinek?

  You, you can find love again, you know? And she has a picture of, of her fiance that she lost in, in her office on her desk. And it's like, I see it there and it's a nice reminder for all of us, you know? His losses is a nice reminder to all of us that live, live, live life, love life.

• 35:57Simon Sinek?

  Easier said than done. I mean, you know, you and I write books about this stuff and it's hard. It is hard work and I get a kick out of that, by the way, you know? It's very easy to be a cat. Cats don't think about being cats. They're just cats. Right? But you have to, you have to actually work really hard to be a human being. Like being a good human being actually requires so much work.

• 36:16Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 36:17Simon Sinek?

  You know, and there's, there's, that's funny to me. You know, like to be the best version of a human being is actually very difficult and requires studying and accurate.

• 36:25Lewis Howes?

  It does.

• 36:26Simon Sinek?

  Discomfort and all those things that, you know, I think this young generation is, tries to avoid.

• 36:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:32Simon Sinek?

  Not the work part, the discomfort part.

• 36:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. You mentioned about, um, you know, we shouldn't be,

• 36:40Lewis Howes?

  I can't remember exactly what you said, but we shouldn't be focusing on our, a good day being on how productive we are.

• 36:46Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 36:46Lewis Howes?

  We should have a different metric of what a good day is. How do we measure what a good day is then if it's not a productive day?

• 36:56Simon Sinek?

  So this is the problem with things that are hard to measure. It doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means they're hard to measure, you know?

• 37:04Simon Sinek?

  You're in love with your girlfriend, you know, show me the metric. Show me the number that proves to me, you know, that that she is the love of your life. Well, you can't. You can show me a bunch of behaviors and I can ask her if she feels secure. She feels safe, she feels seen and heard, if she feels she can be her best self because of the space you provide her. But I got no number. Um, so just because you can't measure something or just because something's difficult to measure doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Right? So that's, that's an important lesson. I learned that in my career too. So I, I had this meeting at the Pentagon. I'm sitting in the foyer, waiting for the general to come in. When he was ready to see me.

• 37:45Simon Sinek?

  And we've all had this experience where you're waiting in a foyer, waiting in a waiting area. And somebody will come and get you. And they take you to the conference room or the office. And because being quiet is uncomfortable, we fill the dead air. Yeah. How's your day? Exactly. What's going on? Exactly, exactly. How was your flight? So hot out here. So hot out. Exactly, exactly right. It's hallway talk. It's, all it is is designed to, to, to fill dead air. That's it. And the minute you walk in the office, it just stops. Nobody actually cared. Right. Well, that's what happened to me. The general came to get me. We start walking to his office and the hallway talk begins. And he says, you know, Simon, I had everybody in my office read your book. And I said, my publisher thanks you.

• 38:28Simon Sinek?

  And he said, uh, tell them not to bother. I had them read my copy. Total book sales? One. Total impact? Huge. Hmm. Compared to, I go to an event and they give away 500 free copies of the book. Total book sales 500, but they use them as doorstops and coasters. Total impact zero. Maybe three or four people read it, right? Right. So it was that experience that I realized that I can't measure. Impact simply based on book sales or dollars or income or anything like that. Now, over the long term, I think you can, you know, the book is sustainable. But in the short term, it's really a useless metric. So I had to get comfortable with the fact that I was doing things that I couldn't measure the impact, but I knew had an impact.

• 39:09Simon Sinek?

  And you've heard me talk about these things before, you know, I talk about exercise where you go to the gym and you come home and you don't see anything. And you go to the gym the next day and you come home and you don't see anything. And so you're like, it's not working. And you're in pain, right?

• 39:23Lewis Howes?

  And you want to eat a cheeseburger, pizza and ice cream.

• 39:26Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. And you keep doing it and you still don't really see anything until you maybe look down and read a scale or and sometimes that's weight isn't even the thing. You're replacing fat with muscle. Your weight might go up, right? Until people started saying to you, you look really good.

• 39:39Lewis Howes?

  You look young.

• 39:40Simon Sinek?

  But you never saw it happen. It's like you never see yourself get older until you look at a picture of you from when you were younger. Right? And, and so you believe we, you know, we know from the science and we know from experience that if I exercise, it's a process and it's good for me, even though I can't measure it in the short term. And if I eat well and I keep doing that, I know it'll keep me healthy for the long term of eat more leafy greens and less sugar. I know I just have to stick to this process. That a hundred percent, a hundred percent of the time it works. How long does it take to get into shape if you start exercising? Nobody knows.

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:18Simon Sinek?

  Neither does any doctor. Sometimes a little less time for some people and sometimes a little more time for others. Like, we don't know. We just know a hundred percent that it works. And so I had to get used to the idea professionally that I'm going to do things that I know work, but I won't be able to measure them. And I just have to be okay with the fact that it works, like exercise, like eating right. And so that's where, you know, learning an infant mindset and letting go of annual goals. So people are like, you know, what's your annual goal? I don't have any because I can't predict what I'm going to achieve based on arbitrary timelines. So I have guidelines, you know, like I run a marathon. I like to know the speed I'm going at. Like I do look at numbers. They matter to me. They help me measure speed and distance.

• 41:03Simon Sinek?

  But I don't get happy or sad if I hit or miss a number.

• 41:08Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think so many people get sad or happy based on if they hit their goals? And sometimes you hit the goals and you're still not happy.

• 41:15Simon Sinek?

  Because we're dopamine driven, short-term visual animals. I mean, it's going to go in a circle. Right? And because we can create, if you create a goal. And you hit it, you get a shot of dopamine. That is what happened. Right? Any kind of beginning, middle and end, if you reach the end, you'll get the dopamine. Like find food, found it. Oh, it feels good. I lost my keys, found them. Oh my God, it feels so good. Right? Um, this is why we often confuse, um, on a first date. We do this like falling in love on the first, you know, on the first date. Not really true. That's not oxytocin and serotonin. That's actually dopamine. Cause you, you think you found the thing you're looking for.

• 41:57Simon Sinek?

  So you have a list of things in your head that you want in your relationship. This person seems to have a bunch of them. And you have, you know, new relationship energy. All you see is the stuff that you want. That's on your. Perfect stuff. The perfect stuff. And you're literally like, I, I think this is the one. Yeah. I think, I think they're the one. I'm like, congratulations. You are getting, you're flooded with dopamine on date one. Right. Or date two, and you are not in love. We've all made the mistake. You are not in love. I've made it too many times. Of course. Go out a bunch more, go out a bunch more. You realize what the hell was I thinking? Right. And they've said that about me.

• 42:32Simon Sinek?

  We can't help ourselves. And I think that if you recognize these things. And, and, and you, and let's go right back to the question where you started, which is you talked about the condition of the human relationship. Right?

• 42:47Simon Sinek?

  And I think when the human relationship declines, when our feelings of love and friendship and closeness and deep, meaningful relationships decline, we become more obsessed with the external validations, the clicks, the likes, the followers, you know?

• 43:09Simon Sinek?

  To the point where it's literally become a career.

• 43:13Simon Sinek?

  I'm an influencer, which means I have more clicks than you, more likes than you, more followers than you. And that makes me an alpha in our society. You know, I went to an event recently and there was this, uh, this pretty girl who was, I was sitting in my seat at this event and she was posing for pictures as her friend took pictures of her. And somebody leans over to me, she goes, she's a very famous influencer. And I said, you mean she's a freelance employee of an algorithm?

• 43:48Simon Sinek?

  Cause that's what an influencer is. They're freelance employees for algorithms. They might make a lot of money. A lot of some freelancers make a lot of money and they work for the algorithm. The algorithm is their boss.

• 43:55Lewis Howes?

  They have to feed the algorithm.

• 43:57Simon Sinek?

  Or they have to feed the algorithm. If the algorithm changes, it could destroy their whole income. And you never get to rest. You never get to rest because the algorithm doesn't rest. You don't get to rest.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  And it could influence their self-worth.

• 44:07Simon Sinek?

  So the the smart influencers, if they're making coin, right? Bank that coin, invest that coin. Because you are gonna burn out or the algorithm will change or somebody else will do it better than you. More likely you're gonna burn out.

• 44:22Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 44:22Simon Sinek?

  Nobody can maintain that pace of recording your life every moment. You know, for content, content, content, because the algorithm never rests. Think of it like CNN. It's a 24 new 24 hour news cycle for your life.

• 44:33Lewis Howes?

  Crazy.

• 44:34Simon Sinek?

  Right? And we saw what happened to the quality of news when we went to a 24 news cycle, 24 hour news cycle. Right? Now think of some of the quality of life when you go to a 24 hour content production schedule.

• 44:45Simon Sinek?

  Your vacations, you have to bring your camera with you.

• 44:47Lewis Howes?

  You're always on.

• 44:48Simon Sinek?

  You're always on your relationships. You're bringing your camera with you. You're gonna burn out. And if you've been saving your money and investing your money, you'll be just fine. But if you're spending that money, it's not gonna be good.

• 45:00Lewis Howes?

  How does someone manage their own life's motivation? While making sure they're being somewhat productive to have a career that pays them an income and can cultivate growth within a career or their own business while also creating the metric of a good day? How can we balance those three of staying motivated, not being lazy? Having a balanced, healthy, beautiful day while also being productive?

• 45:33Simon Sinek?

  What's wrong with being lazy?

• 45:35Lewis Howes?

  Nothing wrong with that.

• 45:36Simon Sinek?

  What does lazy mean? What does it? What does? What does it mean to be lazy?

• 45:39Lewis Howes?

  I think, well, my, I think my definition of I'm being thinking about right now is more of like not caring about anything. Is it would be my definition of lazy, like not caring.

• 45:48Simon Sinek?

  Caring. Okay.

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  That's but I've maybe not.

• 45:51Simon Sinek?

  I think, but I think it's clear that we use that.

• 45:53Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 45:53Simon Sinek?

  Because lazy to some people might be sitting on a couch, watching TV all day.

• 45:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 45:58Simon Sinek?

  Right? Now, if I've been working with crazy person.

• 46:02Lewis Howes?

  That's relaxing. That sounds good to me.

• 46:04Simon Sinek?

  That sounds, that sounds good to me. Or maybe I'm watching documentaries and I'm generating ideas.

• 46:09Lewis Howes?

  Right. Yeah, that's not lazy to me.

• 46:10Simon Sinek?

  To somebody, you know, that I haven't produced something at the end of the day, that's tangible, because this thing, things being produced all the time here, right? Ideas.

• 46:23Simon Sinek?

  Then, so let's be clear that what we mean by is not lazy, but what we mean by is, how do you, how do you live a life where you care, like people who don't care? So I think, I think older generations, and I count myself amongst them, our generation is pretty judgy, because we believe you go to work, you get the promotion, you move, you move you up the ladder, and we kind of understand people who don't have ambition.

• 46:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:46Simon Sinek?

  Like, what do you mean, what do you mean you're not interested in like, moving up the ladder and getting more responsibility and one day achieving a leadership position?

• 46:54Lewis Howes?

  Or they feel entitled to just be a leader.

• 46:56Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 46:56Lewis Howes?

  At 24.

• 46:57Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 46:57Lewis Howes?

  Without putting the work.

• 46:58Simon Sinek?

  Right. Like, we're, but we're pretty judgy, right? And I think we have to recognize that raw ambition is fine for some. And some people want to just come to work, get a paycheck, and have that paycheck pay for their lifestyle. And they're not interested in moving up the ladder. They're interested in fair compensation. They, it's not that they don't care. They do care. They still do good work. They're just not career minded. They, they're lifestyle minded.

• 47:28Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:29Simon Sinek?

  And so, um, we can judge them as unproductive and lazy just because they don't have any aspirations to move up through the ladder. Um, but they can't, uh, get all, if they haven't been giving like massive raises when they're just, you know, like managing. And I know a lot of people who are very happy. They make a decent living. They spend their money and they go on vacations and they save enough. And it's all balanced. And it's, I think they live fantastic lives.

• 48:00Lewis Howes?

  Great.

• 48:00Simon Sinek?

  They care.

• 48:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Simon Sinek?

  They care about the work and they care about the quality of their work. They care about their lives and the quality of their lives. And they, and, and they, and they want the two to coexist. Right? But remember, we said cost. There's a cost for everything. So if you want to be highly, highly ambitious and make all that money and get all that charm, that comes at a cost to your personal life. If all you want is go on vacations, well, that came as a cost sometimes to your income or, or your professional stability. Right? So the goal is to find the balance that you're comfortable with. You know, some may tilt a little more towards ambition and some may tilt a little more towards lifestyle and it's not for us to judge, it's for us to understand. And if I can understand that's how somebody on my team wants to live a life, then, then I'm okay with that.

• 48:44Simon Sinek?

  And I'll, then as long as they do good work and they care, I think that's a very good important, as long as they care, um, I'm not going to overload them with stuff that they can prove to me that they can do it, but I want them to do good work within, within those boundaries. Yes. And I'm cool with it. But, and we talk about like, I think this whole idea of setting boundaries, you know, it gets a little bit misunderstood. Ah. Right? Like, everybody thinks you have to set boundaries, which means keep people away. I refuse to do that. That's beyond my boundary. I'm not doing that. No, no, no, that's not what boundaries mean. What boundaries means are, let me tell you what I imagine and what my limitations are. We have boundaries in relationships, right? You sit down with your partner, you co-create the relationship that you want to have, and

• 49:28Simon Sinek?

  if you're a good relationship, you discuss what the boundaries are that you both agree to obey. And it's not for us to judge the boundaries of other relationships based on the boundaries of our relationships and vice versa, right? We create the boundaries that make us comfortable and we agree to stay within those boundaries. We can do whatever we want inside those boundaries, but we cannot step outside those boundaries. Whatever relationship style you want to have, you gotta have boundaries and that is a discussion. And I think that is the right thing to do in a professional circumstance as well. It was always assumed that there's only one kind of boundary. Right. Which is the one I have. Right, right, right. And if you go to work till 10 o'clock at night and work on a Saturday, you do it.

• 50:13Simon Sinek?

  Make it happen. Right? Yeah. But that's not the reality of a young generation anymore, but we're not having the discussion. What we, what we've confused is boundaries as a conversation versus boundaries as a unilateral wall that says, I'm not doing that and you can't ask me to do that. Right. It should be a conversation, which is, somebody says, look, I'm not interested in moving up the ranks. I want to be treated fairly. I want to be paid fairly. I'm going to do good work, but I don't want to work late at night and I don't want to work on weekends because I want to live lifestyle. And I'll say, okay, like in an early relationship, let's have a negotiation, right? Which is, I'm cool with that.

• 50:52Simon Sinek?

  Every now and then, every now and then, when there's a lot of stress and things have gone haywire, or we have a huge deadline, I may need you to stay late a couple nights, or the occasional Saturday, but I'll give you Monday off. I'll make it up to you. I'm not gonna take away from you without giving you back, and I won't do it a lot, I won't abuse it, but every now and then, Yeah. are you okay with that boundary? The flexible boundary, yes. So I hear what the boundaries are you want, you understand the things that I need, and we come to an agreement, say, yes, those are the boundaries. We're both, we're all cool with that. We're in alignment, yes. We're in alignment. And that becomes more productive, but that's not what's happening. Usually, the discussion of boundaries is me telling you, as opposed to, and by the way, try that in your relationship.

• 51:37Simon Sinek?

  Not gonna go well. Me telling you what my boundaries are in my relationship, as opposed to a discussion, where I can understand where the boundaries are coming from, and maybe your past experiences, or maybe you've had bosses that took advantage of you, or maybe you were underpaid and somebody abused the fact that you were, you know, salary, or whatever it is. It's just a conversation, because we don't know what somebody's previous experiences that makes them create the boundary that they have now. And they're usually based on some sort of preventing something from happening again. That already happened in the past, yeah. Right? It happened to me, I'm never letting that happen to me again. Bingo. My boundary, yeah, yeah. Right? Like everything, this is gonna be a circular conversation for us. It's human beings interacting with human beings. Yeah.

• 52:18Simon Sinek?

  And, like, we have to, we have to do this together. Like, the relationship is ours. My girlfriend and I joke that, you know, when we first showed up in our relationship, you know, I wanted her to fit the blueprint that I expected of her, what I expected of a girlfriend. Which was? I mean, we all have our own. Yeah, yeah, your own definition of it. We all have our own blueprints of what we want. Right, right. And she wanted me to fit the blueprint of what Her definition. Of her definition of what a boyfriend should be, and what my definition of a relationship should look like, and we were both failing miserably to live up to each other's blueprint. Really? Of course. Were you failing, were you failing after it was discussed? Here's what I There was no discussion. Everybody shows up with a blueprint in their head, and you don't, you either fit it or you don't.

• 53:03Simon Sinek?

  Right. Okay? So that's where the conflict started. Of course. And then they're constantly letting you down, or you're picking fights, or whatever it is. It didn't go very well, until we sat down and were like, this is not working. And so we agreed that I have to throw out my blueprint and you have to throw out your blueprint. We like each other a lot. So we know that. It was a good basis. We respect each other. We care about each other. We have the same values. Why don't we agree to write a new blueprint together? And co-creation became our mantra. That's beautiful. Right? That the relationship will not be mine and it'll not be yours. It'll be ours. And I can no longer make a unilateral decision about what I want in this relationship.

• 53:46Simon Sinek?

  Because the relationship doesn't belong to me. It belongs to us. We have joint custody of this relationship. Interesting. Right? And by the way, you can't make unilateral decisions about what happens in the relationship because it doesn't belong to you. I got 50% of this. Right. Right? And the result has been amazing and it requires lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of communication and boundary setting and discussions. And I think professional relationships should be the same, which is I have a blueprint in my head of what an employee should do. An employee has a blueprint in their head of what a company or a boss should do. And the problem is, is hopefully that goes well. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes it completely falls apart. Versus saying, I got this job.

• 54:32Simon Sinek?

  You got this, you know, you're, you got this, you're my boss.

• 54:38Simon Sinek?

  Can we have a discussion about what we want this relationship to be? I'm not going to get everything I want and you're not getting everything you want. It's not, because that's the boundary like I declare, right? That's just not going to work. Right.

• 54:51Simon Sinek?

  But can we, this is why I think it's important for companies to talk about their why and their values. I think it's important for companies to set expectations, what it's like to work here. And don't give me this work hard, play hard bullshit. Like any company that tells you we work hard, play hard, please run in the opposite direction, right? Why not work smart, play always, right? Because working hard sounds unhealthy and playing hard sounds very unhealthy. Right. It's like I worked too hard this week, so now I'm going to get faced this weekend. Very unhealthy at work, very unhealthy on the weekend. Yeah, sounds like burnout recipe. Work hard, play hard is a stupid philosophy, right? Work smart, play always, right?

• 55:33Simon Sinek?

  And the point is, is it should, that's why I think it's important for companies to talk about their why, talk about their values, be honest about them. Um, because you'll attract people who will more likely want to work within the boundaries that you're setting, right? So for example, people often ask me about Amazon. Isn't Amazon a horrible place to work? Right? And I'll say, well, they never lied.

• 56:01Lewis Howes?

  This is the expectation.

• 56:02Simon Sinek?

  They never lied.

• 56:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 56:03Simon Sinek?

  They didn't say, oh, my God, it's a party here every day. Everybody like, it's just like unicorns and rainbows. No, you work three hours and you go home.

• 56:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 56:11Simon Sinek?

  They never lied. They're pretty public about it's a really demanding job with ridiculous hours. And even the people who love it over the last two years, you know, like it's a really hard place to work. But if you like those conditions, then go work there.

• 56:26Lewis Howes?

  And here's some benefits.

• 56:27Simon Sinek?

  And here's some benefits. And there's benefits. Or like people talk about Steve Jobs was an. Yes. But people who worked there, people who worked at Apple under Steve Jobs will all tell you that they were pushed harder than they've ever been pushed in their careers. And the things that they accomplished, they wouldn't have been able to accomplish anywhere else but there.

• 56:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 56:46Simon Sinek?

  Right? So if you're okay with those boundaries, then go work there. But the point is, is these companies tell you what their expectations are and what it's like to work there upfront. And the reason it's important to do that is to attract people who are more likely to want to work within those boundaries.

• 57:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 57:03Simon Sinek?

  But it's still an act of co-creation, right? And if you don't like it, then, then you should leave.

• 57:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 57:10Simon Sinek?

  Right?

• 57:11Lewis Howes?

  Enter a different relationship.

• 57:12Simon Sinek?

  Now, if the company lied to you, that's different.

• 57:14Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 57:15Simon Sinek?

  Right? Then you do actually have the right to complain and point fingers. And sometimes even like at Amazon, it got a little too far.

• 57:21Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 57:22Simon Sinek?

  Reel it back a little bit.

• 57:23Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, sure. Why do you think, I don't want to, I mean, I guess I am generalizing a little bit, but obviously this isn't the case for everyone in the younger generation. But why does it seem like there is a conversation happening about the younger generation?

• 57:39Lewis Howes?

  Where there is a a an entitlement or demand energy towards, okay, this is my first year in this job, you know, out of college, two years out. I don't have all the skills or the experience or the results to show that I'm capable of getting this. But I demand and want all of these things that the younger, the older generation wasn't able to do. And then they constantly not generalize them, but a conversation of them wanting raises within the first month. More, you know, unlimited time off.

• 58:12Simon Sinek?

  Sure.

• 58:13Lewis Howes?

  This kind of lazy mentality and entitlement.

• 58:16Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's multiple factors, of course. Parents is one of them.

• 58:22Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 58:22Simon Sinek?

  You know, it's it's the parenting philosophies of the generation. That was a big part of it, you know? When you and I got in trouble at school, our parents said, what did you do now? If a lot of people get in trouble at school now, their parents say, what's wrong with your teacher?

• 58:37Lewis Howes?

  Right. No, I got suspended.

• 58:38Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 58:38Lewis Howes?

  You know, I was like punished for

• 58:40Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 58:40Lewis Howes?

  Weeks.

• 58:41Simon Sinek?

  Right. Um, and, you know, again, sometimes it is the school and the teacher, but there's bad kids too.

• 58:47Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:47Simon Sinek?

  You know, where kids do stupid things.

• 58:48Lewis Howes?

  Sure. No, I cheated. So I cheated on a test. So I got, I got the consequence.

• 58:53Simon Sinek?

  Quite rightfully so.

• 58:53Lewis Howes?

  But it wasn't like, well, you know, they shouldn't punish you. Let's just, you know, do this or make any excuse for me.

• 59:00Simon Sinek?

  So parents is part of it. Um, social media is part of it because we're constantly comparing. My sister had somebody who worked for her back in a previous job and he walked into her office and said, can you give me a promotion? And my sister's like, you know, work term alone.

• 59:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 59:15Simon Sinek?

  And he's like, well, hold on. No, no, no. I I don't need, you don't have to give me the additional responsibility and I don't even need a salary raise. I just need the new title so I can put it on LinkedIn so my friends can see.

• 59:26Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 59:27Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 59:28Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow. After what? Like a few months of working there? Yeah.

• 59:30Simon Sinek?

  But it was really about the The the display, the display. So it became one of those metrics like followers or likes, which is how many promotions have you had on LinkedIn? You know? And It's a false sense of accomplishment, though. So so and it's really funny because there's a corollary here, which is we know that when there is conspicuous displays of wealth. So name brands, when you wear your your little gooch or, you know, or you got The rivet or Chanel. Chanel bag, there's a reason they put the logos on the outside, right? It's because we like that everybody knows, right? And there's data on this that when you wear your fancy stuff and you put it on and it makes you feel you actually get

• 1:00:13Simon Sinek?

  you get shots of, you get bursts of serotonin because it makes you feel proud and like you're, you know, your higher status in in the community and all of that. That's what conspicuous displays of wealth do. Makes us feel good. We also know that when you wear a fake, everybody may think that you got that Chanel bag, but you actually get no serotonin. Interesting. You know. You actually don't get the the feeling of I'm the right? Because you didn't earn it. Because it's not real. It's not the real thing. So I wonder if it seems like it seems to make sense that when you have a fake promotion for the title to show your friends,

• 1:00:52Simon Sinek?

  that though your friends may be may be impressed because they're looking at the logo, that you actually know that it's fake, so you actually don't get a feeling of self-confidence and I think that this is good. And and then otherwise, there's no growth that comes from it. In fact, it might do the opposite. I might make you insecure. Wow. Right? And we know this from kids who get medals who come in last, right? Which is great, you gave them a medal. They know they didn't deserve it. It actually makes them not feel good. Interesting. Because they didn't deserve it. They know that. Because they and and the kids who did earn it, it's devalued because you gave one to somebody else as well. So parenting is part of it. Social media is part of it.

• 1:01:32Simon Sinek?

  But I think the other part of it, which is not considered by older generations, my business partner talks about this all the time, which is when I entered the work field, when you entered the work field, back, back in the day. We were legit when we came out of college. We were legit idiots. Mm hmm. Right? We had no clue. We thought we knew. We had no skill set whatsoever. No discernible value whatsoever. You know, we all started making photocopies. Right. And we had to look up to the people we worked for because they were going to teach us everything that we needed to know. And we learned a skill set from working in from the people who we worked for. Right?

• 1:02:17Simon Sinek?

  That was how it worked. Yeah. You have a young generation now that's graduating high school and college that enters the workforce with a skill set. And sometimes it's a skill set that the older generation doesn't have. They understand personal branding. They understand social media. They understand how computers work. Photography, video editing. Video editing. They understand the algorithms. They can game the algorithms better than anybody. Right? Look at all the, look at Mr. Beast. He's what, 22, 23? Billions of views. Right? His numbers are better than every top movie. Ever. Ever. Yeah. Right? I went to an event once where there was all these like fancy actors. And Mr. Beast was there and none of them knew who he was.

• 1:02:59Simon Sinek?

  And, and I was looking at, and I was like doing the numbers, which is if you took like one of the A-list celebrities and added up the total number of people that have seen all of his movies ever. It doesn't even come close to like one video from Mr. Beast. Crazy. Right? And yet none of them knew who he was. And, and they all think they're hot and like, no, this kid's the hot. And right. So I think that's another problem. That when it's not a problem, but that's another consideration, which is that 21 year old actually does have a skill set. And they know that that skill set has value. And so they are entering the workforce knowing that they know something that you don't know. And so they're not coming in as total idiots. And they, though there is still the need for them to learn and to, to, to,

• 1:03:45Simon Sinek?

  there's the sense that I already know something and so. You should start giving me more upfront.

• 1:03:51Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:03:51Simon Sinek?

  Right? And so I think it's right for older generations to recognize that they actually know stuff we don't know, and they're actually good at things better than we were when we were their age.

• 1:04:02Simon Sinek?

  And that has value, just not as much value as they may think, because there's still a lot more for them to learn.

• 1:04:08Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:04:09Simon Sinek?

  Or there's the application of that skill set that needs to be honed.

• 1:04:14Simon Sinek?

  Or maybe that skill set has no value in this job.

• 1:04:16Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:04:17Simon Sinek?

  You should get a job to do that. So I it's it's.

• 1:04:19Lewis Howes?

  What is the, I mean, we're generalizing this, but what is the greatest skill that the younger generation has going into the workforce? And the thing that will hold them back the most?

• 1:04:32Simon Sinek?

  Well, that's a good question.

• 1:04:35Simon Sinek?

  I think they're probably one in the same, to be honest. I think it's a complete comfort and facility with technology integrated into their lives, fully integrated, which is a blessing and a curse. It's gonna, they, I'm just, I'm just a repeating record, which is there's a balance and there's a cost for everything. And the cost for that facility and that ease and that comfort with technology is deep, meaningful relationships.

• 1:05:00Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Because they're on the phone 20 hours a day as opposed to connecting in person.

• 1:05:06Simon Sinek?

  Or worse, they think being connected and connecting to the same thing. I had a fight with a 16 year old a couple of years ago that they, her and her friends send voice messages to each other. And I said, why don't you just pick up the phone and call each other? She goes, we are. I'm like, no, you're not. You're sending voice messages to each other. She genuinely believed that that was a conversation. Right? It's not a conversation.

• 1:05:29Lewis Howes?

  It's disjointed.

• 1:05:30Simon Sinek?

  It's listening to my answering machine and then leaving somebody his message on their answering machine. And that's what it is just in real time. It's just quicker. Right?

• 1:05:39Simon Sinek?

  But I think that, and when, when we feel a little lonelier down, because we have such facility with the stuff, we go to the stuff to be a balm.

• 1:05:51Simon Sinek?

  For that feeling of loss or loneliness that we have. It's not that different for any why alcoholics drink. Or, you know, which is alcoholics drink only for a finite number of reasons, which is social stress, career stress and social stress. It's pretty much it.

• 1:06:10Simon Sinek?

  Did I say financial?

• 1:06:12Simon Sinek?

  And, you know, when, when, and we see it all the time, right? You see, you know, Brene Brown talks about this as well, which is we've confused vulnerability in broadcasting, which is making a video by yourself in your room of you crying because you're depressed or you got broken up with or whatever, you know? And, and you just being vulnerable and then you have that expression validated by likes and views.

• 1:06:41Lewis Howes?

  That's not vulnerability.

• 1:06:42Simon Sinek?

  It's not vulnerability. That's simply broadcasting your emotions by yourself. By the way, you're by yourself in your room with your phone. Right? That's literally what's happening. Now I challenge people who do that. Go have that exact conversation, say all the same words to a friend in the same room as them. And you'll find that much more difficult.

• 1:07:04Lewis Howes?

  Is it harder to broadcast to a million people your emotions than it is to one person in person?

• 1:07:11Simon Sinek?

  No, it's easier.

• 1:07:13Lewis Howes?

  It's easier to do to broadcast.

• 1:07:14Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:15Lewis Howes?

  Than it is to have a conversation with a friend, a family member or someone close to you.

• 1:07:19Simon Sinek?

  I, I can go on, I can hit play. I hit record on FaceTime and I can look in my computer and be like, I'm struggling. I'm really having a hard time. Stop, play. I'm gonna do that again. Record.

• 1:07:32Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:07:33Simon Sinek?

  I'm struggling. I'm really having a hard time. Real talk here, just talking in real talk.

• 1:07:41Simon Sinek?

  You know, just speaking my truth here, you know? And I want you guys to know that, you know, I'll get through this.

• 1:07:50Lewis Howes?

  And then analyze it afterwards.

• 1:07:52Simon Sinek?

  And then post it, pick a picture to go on it, you know, versus going to a friend and sitting across a table from somebody and going, I'm struggling and I don't know what's going on. That's excruciating.

• 1:08:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:08:06Simon Sinek?

  That's true vulnerability, because there is no vulnerability doing it by yourself. Like Pete, there's a perception of vulnerability, just the same way I can turn on a movie and watch an actor playing vulnerability, right? And I'm like, oh, my God, so vulnerable. Well, I'm watching the performance of vulnerability. So for me, the viewer, it's real.

• 1:08:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:08:26Simon Sinek?

  And for, and I have no doubt that the person making the video is feeling something. I get it.

• 1:08:31Lewis Howes?

  But they're creating a piece of art.

• 1:08:32Simon Sinek?

  But they're, but they're, but they're not, it's not that they're creating a piece of art. It's that they're not, the thing that that will help them, the thing that will help them get over that feeling and feel safe is not the number of likes that validate the expression. The thing that'll make them feel safe is for them to take the, have the incredibly uncomfortable, awful conversation with somebody where they say the same things and that person sits there and goes, I got you, I got you. Hmm. Right? And like, I remember I have a friend who's, he's, he's an impressive, if he's an impressive dude. And, um, and I love him to death.

• 1:09:14Simon Sinek?

  And I didn't want to show him vulnerability because I'm so impressed by him. I wanted him to be impressed by me. He's so strong, I want him to know that I'm strong. Right? I don't want him, and it's not because I intellectually understand the importance of vulnerability, but it's still, I want to, I want my friend to like me. My amazingly impressive friend that I think is super impressive to think I'm impressive too, and I'm on his level.

• 1:09:40Simon Sinek?

  And I remember I was struggling, I called him up and I go, I'm not in a good place. And he, and he was like, what do you got bud? What do you need? And, um, I remember we were, uh, I were out once and I said to him, you know, you're one of those friends that I would call in a hard time. And he said to me, I'd be mad if you didn't. And we have this magical relationship now where we open up to each other and we open to each other pretty, and it doesn't at all do any damage to what I think about him. In fact, it makes me think more of him.

• 1:10:11Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful. The interesting thing, not to interrupt you there, but the interesting thing that you said.

• 1:10:17Lewis Howes?

  Intellectually, I think all of us think, I don't want to, I want to be on their level.

• 1:10:21Simon Sinek?

  Of course.

• 1:10:21Lewis Howes?

  So I want to be strong or make sure that I'm representing myself in a way that is at their level. And if I'm vulnerable, or showing that I'm struggling, then will I be less than them?

• 1:10:31Simon Sinek?

  Correct.

• 1:10:32Lewis Howes?

  Why is that when actually vulnerability brings us closer together?

• 1:10:37Simon Sinek?

  Well, it's also a story we say in our own heads, right? Because it turns out, he's not all buttoned up. And it turns out, he's not got every answer. And it turns out, everything he touches doesn't turn to gold. And it turns out, he's got insecurities. And it turns out, he's got fears. And it turns out, he's got anger and he's got frustration. And he's got all those things too. It turns out, he's human.

• 1:10:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:11:00Simon Sinek?

  And this is where the relationship became beautiful, which is, he is more impressive than me. He's a much more impressive guy than I am. And I love him to death and he loves me to death. Not because we're comparing our resumes. It's because we trust each other and hold space for each other. And I've seen him at his worst and he's seen me at my worst. And that's fine.

• 1:11:23Simon Sinek?

  And I think that's what social media doesn't allow. And again, forget about the people who they're broadcasting to. I have absolutely, you've helped me, seeing this has helped me. I know that when I broadcast things.

• 1:11:35Lewis Howes?

  It helps.

• 1:11:35Simon Sinek?

  It helps people. I know that.

• 1:11:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:37Simon Sinek?

  And, and, and that has value.

• 1:11:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:11:39Simon Sinek?

  I'm talking about the person who's making the video, who's struggling themselves, how they find safety and salvation. They will not find it in the broadcast. They will at some point have to go to a friend and ask for help.

• 1:11:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:11:54Simon Sinek?

  And they can still make the broadcast to serve others.

• 1:11:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:57Simon Sinek?

  Not anti the broadcast. But that person is kidding themselves if they think that is the way to find peace and calm in a life.

• 1:12:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. There's something that I wanted to go back to. I'm loving all this, by the way. Thank you for sharing so openly.

• 1:12:13Lewis Howes?

  Um, which is about the breakdown in life. And. The breakdown, the scenario, the situation that causes us to either fall apart or come together, or start to look differently about our life, ask what's the point on the direction we're heading?

• 1:12:32Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious in your mind,

• 1:12:35Lewis Howes?

  again, there's been a lot that's happened in the last few years. Pandemic, war, and AI, which is being talked about more. Obviously, it's been around for a long time, but now it's being talked about.

• 1:12:45Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, and it's moving at a pace that's ridiculous, which is very, very scary. I don't mean to diminish it.

• 1:12:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course, it pays fast now.

• 1:12:51Simon Sinek?

  You know, when the internet showed up, the adoption for internet was years.

• 1:12:54Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:12:55Simon Sinek?

  The adoption for most technologies is decades. This thing is increasing its potential and its speed in weeks and months, which is and which is not giving us time to consider that balanced equation. That's the part I find scary, is not the technology, the speed of adoption.

• 1:13:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:11Simon Sinek?

  And

• 1:13:12Lewis Howes?

  The social ripples.

• 1:13:13Simon Sinek?

  And social ripples.

• 1:13:13Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:13:14Simon Sinek?

  And remember, governments have to adopt it. They don't have a choice.

• 1:13:17Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:18Simon Sinek?

  Right? So like nuclear weapons, right? When nuclear weapons showed up, governments had to. Whether they wanted to or not was irrelevant. They had to because if the other one does, we don't have a choice.

• 1:13:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:28Simon Sinek?

  It's the same thing here. Like all of the defensive and offensive weapons and AI, governments have to, they have no choice. But we actually do have the ability to set pace. And we're not. And there is fear of being left out. There's massive FOMO. So one company is investing in it heavily. The other one was like, we have to invest in it heavily because they are, so we have to.

• 1:13:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:46Simon Sinek?

  Right? And so there's FOMO and fear of being left behind. And some of it's true, but not necessarily the pace and blindness, which we're throwing the technology at our companies and our businesses. And I think history will always repeat itself, which is when you do something blindly and too quickly, at some point it's going to break.

• 1:14:06Lewis Howes?

  Right. Right.

• 1:14:09Simon Sinek?

  And so we don't know what or how that looks, what, when it's going to happen, but it's probably going to happen.

• 1:14:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:14:15Simon Sinek?

  I mean, think, you know, nature abhors imbalance and seeks equilibrium at all times. This is why when this is stock market crash, we call it a correction, right? Because there is imbalance and it finds correction. Like, that's how Mother Nature works. She always finds balance at some point. Right?

• 1:14:32Lewis Howes?

  You don't know when, but it's going to happen at some point.

• 1:14:33Simon Sinek?

  But it is gonna happen.

• 1:14:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:35Simon Sinek?

  Right? And I think that the imbalance that we're creating with the speed of the adoption of the technology that we don't fully understand. The balance is gonna happen.

• 1:14:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:44Simon Sinek?

  I don't know how, I don't know what, I don't know what it's gonna look like. No one can predict it. There's a lot of people trying. And there's no way to slow it down because now the genie's out of the bag. No one's gonna be like, you know what? I'll be the one to slow it down.

• 1:14:57Lewis Howes?

  Right, let's stop this, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:58Simon Sinek?

  You know, government can put some guardrails on. Europe is actually attempting to put some guardrails on, which I think is helpful.

• 1:15:03Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, yeah.

• 1:15:04Simon Sinek?

  America, not so much.

• 1:15:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:15:06Simon Sinek?

  You know, we think guardrails are anti-capitalist, which they're not, they're just guardrails.

• 1:15:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:15:13Simon Sinek?

  We can debate where the guardrails are, but guardrails are good.

• 1:15:15Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, sure. You mentioned early on, I like, I like that you talked about the fear that causes a lot of social ripples with these different things that happen, right? Especially around AI or around pandemics or around war, right? You've mentioned a few of these things. With everything we've seen in the last few years, which one do you think will cause more fear and more emotional reactions or social ripples between

• 1:15:48Lewis Howes?

  another virus or pandemic-like experience? War?

• 1:15:54Lewis Howes?

  Or AI and the acceleration of AI?

• 1:15:58Simon Sinek?

  Oh, you think income inequality is bigger than all of them?

• 1:16:02Lewis Howes?

  Which, what is that?

• 1:16:03Simon Sinek?

  Income inequality.

• 1:16:04Lewis Howes?

  Income inequality will create more social ripples and fear than these three.

• 1:16:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, just look at what's been happening over the past thirty, forty years. The rise of populism, the rise of strongman leaders.

• 1:16:14Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:16:15Simon Sinek?

  The cynicism about democracy. And it's not that democracy or capitalism are bad. It's that this version of democracy, this version of capitalism, not democracy, this version of capitalism that we have, that was largely engineered in the eighties and nineties by people like Jack Welch and Republican and Democratic presidents at the time, is woefully imbalanced and it is, it is lopsided. You know, the stock market used to be a place that the average working American could share in the wealth of the nation. And now the stock market has become the bastion for the few.

• 1:16:51Simon Sinek?

  You know, CEOs who are incentivized by the price of inequity work hard to make other people rich. And often don't include the workers, or worse, use the workers to help balance those books. Though the use of mass layoffs, which was a relatively modern phenomenon, didn't exist in the United States prior to the 1980s.

• 1:17:14Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:17:14Simon Sinek?

  Didn't exist. I mean, there were layoffs, but not to balance the books. They were used for existential reasons, like we're going bankrupt, we have to do something drastic.

• 1:17:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:17:21Simon Sinek?

  Versus, oh, we missed our numbers, you lose your job.

• 1:17:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:17:24Simon Sinek?

  That didn't exist. And so we have a very woefully flawed version of capitalism that is not the capitalism that made America great, nor is it capitalism, the kind of capitalism that Thomas Jefferson was enamored by, as written by Adam Smith.

• 1:17:43Simon Sinek?

  And I think that disparity, and we're seeing it play out now in the strikes, the writer's strike and the actor's strike, which is people working hard to make a small group of people very wealthy and being left out. Nobody minds that a CEO is highly paid. The problem is, is that it's the system of how they get paid that you're not including and bringing people with you. That's the problem, that you're making money off of their backs without them, without them letting feel like they're sharing in the spoils that they helped create.

• 1:18:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:18:22Simon Sinek?

  That's the problem. And we know how we got here. It's because, again, this goes back to metrics, right? The way we measured money was very easy, this sort of going off on a tangent, if we really want to talk about it.

• 1:18:35Lewis Howes?

  I like your tangents.

• 1:18:36Simon Sinek?

  You know, which is, I used, it's very easy, right? And this has been talked about, this is not, this is not a new idea.

• 1:18:44Simon Sinek?

  I would broadcast a TV show and I could count how many people viewed it, right? Ratings. And then, and then I could get picked up for syndication and I can count everything and I can give you a percentage of all the things that I can count, right?

• 1:19:01Simon Sinek?

  Whereas when we went to streaming and everybody, when streaming first showed up, they thought it would be minor, so they didn't, it wasn't built into the contract.

• 1:19:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Simon Sinek?

  It was considered an alternative media, don't worry about it.

• 1:19:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Simon Sinek?

  But now when something gets a billion views, there's no direct advertising dollars applied to that show, and there's no syndication applied to that show. And even though that show may...

• 1:19:27Simon Sinek?

  We can't tell that that's what, why somebody subscribe because the subscription made the money, not the show, even though the show is, gets more views than everybody else. And so, and Netflix and none of the streamers tell you the numbers

• 1:19:40Lewis Howes?

  The views, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:41Simon Sinek?

  of the views, which is really a bad idea because it goes back to metrics and numbers, which is if you can count it, you need to share the numbers so that we can establish a value. And if we can establish a value, we can say what it's worth.

• 1:19:54Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 1:19:55Simon Sinek?

  So hiding numbers is never a good thing when it comes to playing with people's income.

• 1:20:01Lewis Howes?

  What do you think capitalism should be, the new definition of capitalism should be then?

• 1:20:07Simon Sinek?

  Well, it's everything that I write about in every single one of my books.

• 1:20:09Lewis Howes?

  The Infinite Game, yeah.

• 1:20:10Simon Sinek?

  The Infinite Game, Leaders Eat Less and Start With Why, all are attempting to chip away that, you know, Start With Why was that companies should be driven by a higher calling and higher purpose, not just, not just making money. It's totally anti Milton Friedman and Jack Welch. I mean, I hope to undo everything Jack Welch ever did, you know? Leaders Eat Less was about taking care of the people in our care, you know? That leadership is not about being in charge, but taking care of those in your charge. And the Infinite Game is recognizing that this game of business cannot be won, so stop playing it like it's a finite game and stop using people as pawns and start being grateful that they're helping you advance something bigger than yourself.

• 1:20:51Simon Sinek?

  And, and I lay it out there, you know, I lay out what the principles of capitalism should be.

• 1:20:59Simon Sinek?

  In the chapter where I wrote on Milton Friedman, I offer an alternative list of hierarchy and priorities. Can't remember what they are.

• 1:21:09Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I'm here, you say, go ahead, yeah, feel free to share.

• 1:21:13Simon Sinek?

  Chapter five, what pages on?

• 1:21:18Simon Sinek?

  Capitalism should advance a cause, protect people and generate profit in that order.

• 1:21:27Lewis Howes?

  One more time.

• 1:21:29Simon Sinek?

  Advance a purpose, protect people, generate profit. So the responsibility of business is to use its will and resources to advance a greater cause than itself, protect the people in places in which it operates and generate more resources so that it can continue doing all those things for as long as possible. An organization can do whatever it likes to build its business so long as it is responsible for the consequences of its actions. That is, for me, what capitalism should be.

• 1:21:59Lewis Howes?

  And we're not seeing that right now.

• 1:22:01Simon Sinek?

  No, it's the opposite order. It's generate profit, you know, advance a purpose on your website. It's called marketing and protect people, you know, when it suits us.

• 1:22:13Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:22:14Simon Sinek?

  No, no, like version of capitalism we have right now is pretty bastardized.

• 1:22:18Lewis Howes?

  So the, I'm hearing you say the income inequality and where that's heading is a greater fear of risk than another pandemic, AI and war.

• 1:22:31Simon Sinek?

  The, whenever you have a huge delta between those that have and those that don't have,

• 1:22:41Simon Sinek?

  you have revolution.

• 1:22:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow, but this is happening all over the world, not just in America, right?

• 1:22:45Simon Sinek?

  Of course.

• 1:22:46Lewis Howes?

  I mean, none of the countries, it's.

• 1:22:47Simon Sinek?

  There's a rise of populism around the world. There's a rejection of democratic values because they've confused democratic values and the version of capitalism we have, they've conflated the two.

• 1:22:58Lewis Howes?

  Right. So what usually happens in a scenario like this and how long does it take for that thing to occur?

• 1:23:07Lewis Howes?

  What has history taught us?

• 1:23:08Simon Sinek?

  There's going to be a revolution.

• 1:23:09Lewis Howes?

  Really? Around the whole world?

• 1:23:11Simon Sinek?

  Come on, no, I mean, come on, I mean, January 6th, these not the science. I mean, listen to the messaging of the populists. It's the haves versus the have nots.

• 1:23:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:22Simon Sinek?

  You know, and the left needs to listen, you know, they're, they're quick to, the left and the right are both quick to criticize the leaders of each other's movements, but they're missing, they're not listening to why people are interested in those messages. They both think, both sides think the other side are sheeple. Both think the other side are blind, deaf and dumb. And yet neither side is paying attention as to why they both have their own rabid followings. And problem is, is most of the country is moderate.

• 1:24:02Lewis Howes?

  Plan.

• 1:24:03Simon Sinek?

  Most of our nation is pretty moderate. Most of our nation is pretty fine.

• 1:24:07Lewis Howes?

  Between somewhere.

• 1:24:08Simon Sinek?

  Willing to find compromises, not really, you know, reasonable. And yet, the angry extremes on both sides have seemed to set the tone.

• 1:24:21Lewis Howes?

  They're playing a finite game.

• 1:24:23Simon Sinek?

  But, but you know, I'm genuinely afraid of, and I don't know how it looks or when it happens, or, but I'm, I think, yeah, I think when we start ripping, when we start accusing each other of being traitors, I mean, the left and the right literally say, call each other traitors or un-American.

• 1:24:44Lewis Howes?

  That's not good.

• 1:24:44Simon Sinek?

  That's not good.

• 1:24:45Lewis Howes?

  That's not good.

• 1:24:46Simon Sinek?

  Not good.

• 1:24:47Lewis Howes?

  I've got a few final questions for you. This has been powerful. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for opening up and sharing. I could go on for hours. This is a question I asked you before that is called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It is that last day on earth for you. And you get to live as long as you want, extend your life as long as you want and create and do all the things you want to do.

• 1:25:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Lewis Howes?

  But for whatever reason, it's the last day. And you've accomplished everything or not, and just lived beautiful days without accomplishments. But you can't take, or excuse me, everything you've created has to go with you. This conversation, gone. Your books, they're gone. It's on to another world or somewhere else. But they're not in this world. Everything you've ever said or done, we don't have access to anymore. But you get to leave behind three lessons. I call it the three truths. Three things that you know from your experiences are true to you that you would want to leave behind as lessons to the world. What would be those three truths for you?

• 1:25:56Simon Sinek?

  Really love the people who love you. Really love them.

• 1:26:03Simon Sinek?

  Learn all the human skills that you need to be a good human being.

• 1:26:11Simon Sinek?

  Who's being human is hard. And

• 1:26:17Simon Sinek?

  and have as much fun as possible. And what I mean by having much fun as possible doesn't mean playing video games and taking vacations every moment. But make jokes, make jokes, have a sense of humor like in in it. You can't, you can't be angry and laugh at the same time. You know, Stephen Colbert talks about this and you can't like. There's something magical in a high stress situation as a joke. And, you know, whether it's gallows humor or whether it's you find the absurdity in something. You know, it's like, just make sure to maintain your sense of humor. Yeah. So love those who love you desperately. Learn the human skills to be a great human being and make sure that you appreciate.

• 1:27:04Simon Sinek?

  That life really is fun.

• 1:27:07Lewis Howes?

  There were a thousand conversations. I don't think I've heard them in that in that way. Those three truths, I've asked it every time and I didn't expect that from you. So it was really beautiful. I appreciate you sharing those three.

• 1:27:19Lewis Howes?

  I would acknowledge you, Simon, for your constant personal growth.

• 1:27:23Simon Sinek?

  No, thank you.

• 1:27:23Lewis Howes?

  Your constant personal growth, you know, I've, I've watched you for years, you know, be a phenom on the internet with Ted Talk and books and all, you know, all the things and accolades. You know, I've been at events with you. I've had you on the show. We know a lot of the same people and, you know.

• 1:27:42Lewis Howes?

  But I really love just watching you personally grow as a human being, speak about these things, loving people desperately. Having as much fun as possible, you know, being someone who's looked at as an intellectual and extremely smart. Talking about humor and fun is awesome for me to hear. And being the best human you can be, knowing that this is a challenging existence or it can be unless you choose to learn skills and overcome it. So I'm really acknowledge you for your personal growth.

• 1:28:12Simon Sinek?

  Thank you.

• 1:28:12Lewis Howes?

  And hope now that we're more neighbors, I'll, I'll run into you more frequently. And get to give you more hugs. So I really acknowledge you for

• 1:28:20Simon Sinek?

  Thank you.

• 1:28:21Lewis Howes?

  everything. And I also acknowledge you for this, which I think is interesting. Asked you before you came on here today.

• 1:28:27Lewis Howes?

  I acknowledge you for not having something to be productive in right now. Of course, you've got, you know, book and your podcast and, you know, content that you're creating, but you're not like, I'm working on this massive project and I've got to do it. I've got this deadline and it's got to be this way. You're like, yeah, I'm allowing ideas to come to me. I'm allowing things to form. I'm building deeper relationships. I'm connecting with my, my girlfriend. I'm doing these things. I acknowledge you for that because I think it's hard at times to allow ourselves to not be overly productive and always creating something and always trying to strive to be on top. So I acknowledge you for being in that space. I think it's a beautiful thing, too.

• 1:29:08Simon Sinek?

  Well, that's very nice of you.

• 1:29:12Simon Sinek?

  I think it's important to know who you work for, right? So I would only have stress to come up to write another book if I believed that I worked for my publisher. But I don't. And I would only have stress about the amount of content creation I have to produce if I believed I worked for the algorithm, but I don't.

• 1:29:34Simon Sinek?

  I work, I work for the people who share this world with me. I work for my friends. I work for my family. I work for the people who see the world the way I see it. And I live, try, I've worked very hard to live a life of service. And, you know, the way I manage my social media is I say something that I think

• 1:29:51Simon Sinek?

  is additive. I never pile on because what the, there's no point. I, I, I'm very prescriptive that I will speak if I have something that I believe is additive. And, um, and if I have nothing to say and I have nothing to write, then I'm going to say nothing and I'm going to write nothing.

• 1:30:10Simon Sinek?

  And I think you have to know who your customer is and then be fiercely customer oriented. And I use the word customer in quotes, like if you're a parent, you know, your kids are your customer, you know? If you're a teacher, your students are your customer, you know? If you're a nurse, your patients are your customer. And I think you have to be fiercely, fiercely customer focused. And, um, um, in my, in my chosen line of work, my customer is the army who chooses to stand shoulder to shoulder with me to build the world that we imagine. A world in which people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are. And then they're filled by the work that they do.

• 1:30:46Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Lewis Howes?

  I love it, man. I want everyone to support you and you've got a number of great books. The Infinite Game is one that I think the themes have been spoken about throughout here over and over again of how we can start reimagining our own personal lives, our career, industries, you know, everything, the world. So I want people to get this. Start with why, obviously, as a phenom that everyone should have as well if they haven't got it. SimonSiney.com has got all your content and information. I love your Instagram and your LinkedIn is massive as well. If you guys are over there.

• 1:31:17Simon Sinek?

  It's all focused on human skills.

• 1:31:19Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. So if you want to develop better human skills, follow wherever you're on social media and

• 1:31:25Simon Sinek?

  Other places, all the things.

• 1:31:26Lewis Howes?

  All the things, the podcast, Bit of Optimism, and check it out there if you want to go deeper as well. But how else can we be of service to you today?

• 1:31:35Simon Sinek?

  Do the things. Like, the being of service to me is to, I'm, I'm, I'm one person who puts out a vision of the world and some tools to help build it. But until leaders lead with those tools, until we, and by leader, I don't mean those in charge, I mean those who choose to take on the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise, which can happen at a level inside an organization or in our society. And what I need people to do is do it. Because I, my work is intangible, and I need people to make it tangible.

• 1:32:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Final question.

• 1:32:09Simon Sinek?

  Yep.

• 1:32:09Lewis Howes?

  What's your definition of greatness?

• 1:32:12Simon Sinek?

  I think it's everything we've talked about. My definition of greatness is, is, is living a life of service. And, you know, the people that I think are great devoted themselves to the lives of others.

• 1:32:23Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you.

• 1:32:55Lewis Howes?

  It helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.