Why AI Is Making Us Lonelier and How to Truly Connect | Vanessa Van Edwards

Vanessa Van Edwards, behavioral researcher and founder of Science of People, is the author of Cues and Conversation. Conversation is a learnable skill, and moving past small talk through deeper levels of intimacy builds the connection that technology cannot supply. Topics include Dr. Dan McAdams' Three Levels of Connection, the Nine Power Questions, Dream Building versus Dream Killing, Conversational Confetti, the Candor corpus, and charisma as warmth plus competence.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

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• 0:42Lewis Howes?

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• 1:24Lewis Howes?

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• 2:08Lewis Howes?

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• 2:35Lewis Howes?

  Everywhere I go, airports, events, walking down the street, people stop me and say, Louis, this show got me through one of the hardest seasons of my life. And it's one of the coolest things when people come up to me. So if you see me, please come up and say hi and let me know how this show, The School of Greatness, has impacted you. It lights me up because our mission at Greatness Media is to impact 100 million lives every single week. So if today's conversation hits home for you, do me a favor and push the follow button right now. It means that the next conversation will be delivered to you and will find you exactly when you need it. Again, thank you so much for being here and listening to The School of Greatness. Make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest.

• 3:20Lewis Howes?

  Our guest today told me that if you're lonely, you're not alone. It's not a prescription, it's a state. It can be fixed. Now let me ask you something. When's the last time someone told you good news out loud? Not a LinkedIn post, not an Instagram story, not a, did you see? When's the last time you felt like someone actually understood you in a conversation? Instead of just waiting for their turn to talk. If you've been feeling disconnected lately, even surrounded by people, you are not broken, you are not alone. We are living through a loneliness epidemic. And it's not because we don't have people around us, it's because we've forgotten how to actually talk to each other. In this episode, Vanessa

• 4:05Lewis Howes?

  Van Edwards is going to give you the exact blueprint for turning small talk into real connection. You'll learn the two worst questions you can ask anyone, the three words that instantly make you more interesting in any room, the difference between people who are entertainers and appreciators, and why knowing which one you are changes everything about how you connect with others. You'll also learn her nine power questions for building relationships that actually matter, and a challenge that could change one relationship in your life starting tonight. Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral investigator and founder of Science of People, where she's spent over two decades studying the patterns

• 4:46Lewis Howes?

  of master conversationalists. She's the bestselling author of Captivate and Cues. And her new book, Conversation, teaches readers how to connect with anyone and make every interaction count. Welcome to The School of Greatness, and let's dive in with Vanessa Van Edwards. With AI right now is something that so many people are using, myself including, with sharpening communication, with making sure you're saying the right thing, with all these different things, whether it be in personal or business context. And I only assume AI is going to be more used in the future by more people. What is the biggest thing human beings are lacking that will create more abundance for them and their

• 5:30Lewis Howes?

  relationships as they continue to use AI more?

• 5:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I've spent the last two decades studying master conversationalists. You are one of them, sir. These are people who are able to have a conversation and elevate it to connection. They're able to avoid small talk traps. They're able to create chemistry in a way that people feel heard and understood. So when we're talking about the age of AI, we are having, for the first time in history, more conversation with technology than ever before. Not just through technology. We've been having conversation through technology for many decades. But for the first time in history, we are now talking to it. And that is shaping our conversational muscles. Think about this, right? I was sitting next to my husband and he was talking to

• 6:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  AI. And I was, we were both working, he was talking to AI. And he goes, do better.

• 6:23Lewis Howes?

  To AI.

• 6:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  To AI. Do better. No, no, that's wrong. Do a better job. Do your research. No, verify yourself. And he's talking to AI. And then he turns to me and I was like, you better not tell me to do better, right? And he was like, oh, no, no. And he had to like shift gears. I could see it in his face that when we're talking to AI, we are using a kind of conversational muscle, very directive, very assertive, not polite, not about connection, not about reciprocity. And then we have to switch to talk to our colleagues, our partners, our friends. Friends, it's the same muscle.

• 7:01Lewis Howes?

  You know, when you say that, I can relate to that from sports into life. Because when I was playing football, it was like three hours in the afternoon was like, go and kill someone. It was literally like, put as much pain into the person across me as possible so they feel it and they don't get up. That's kind of what you're taught. You know, hit them so hard they can't breathe. And then you're supposed to shift out of it, take the helmet off and shower and then be like, I love everyone. You know, it's like, it's a switch that you have to learn to navigate and I guess compartmentalize or what is the process?

• 7:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So here's how I would love to invite people to think about is, we think about going to the gym, we think about exercising our body, we lift weights to help our biceps or our quads. It is the same thing with conversation. The muscles that we use in our brain, I know we don't have muscles in our brain, but the way that we use our brain to talk is listening, right? So you're nodding at me, I'm making eye contact, I'm also thinking about a story or research. That is also like going to a social gym. And what we don't realize is we are flexing our social muscles now more than ever to technology, not to each other. And this has all kinds of interesting ripple effects. So for example, most of my best friends are across the country. I just recently moved, as you know, and we're sending each

• 8:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  other nine-minute voice notes. Now that is not conversation, but it feels like conversation, right? I'm actually talking to my phone, right? I'm talking and talking, which you'll, you know, I love to talk. So I'm a nine-minute voice note. I have no feedback. I have no eye contact. I have no, even they're called vocalizations. Oh, uh huh, wow. None of those. And I have no person back to me who loves me and cares about me to say, you know, I don't know if that's the right line of thinking. Or, you know, can I double click on that for just a second? Or pushback, or feedback, or hard news? And then I get one back and then it's over. That's the conversation.

• 8:58Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 8:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're changing the way that we're doing our reps to speak longer, to have less input. And you know what? And this is like why I'm here today and I'm so grateful. Thank you for having me. We are in a loneliness epidemic. You know, one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness. And that number is getting worse, not better. Why? We think we're having conversation, but we're not getting the connection that we need. So we're having conversation to AI. We're having conversation via voice note. We're on social media, looking at all of our friends. We feel like we see them. We feel like we know them. I am now finding out my friends are pregnant, getting married and get a promotion over LinkedIn and Instagram. Really, I can't remember the last time someone's out with

• 9:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  me and said, I have good news. No, they go, did you see my good news?

• 9:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's true.

• 9:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then we have lost, and this is the chemistry, the reason I wrote this book is there's a blueprint under our conversation that is happening that is so critical, that when we're having, even, I'll even say even a video conversation, right? So or over the phone, that still counts. When we're talking not asynchronously, so synchronously to another human being, not voice note, not AI, our body is first producing oxytocin. Oxytocin, the chemical of love and connection.

• 10:11Lewis Howes?

  Real-time communication means. So phone call and FaceTime is okay?

• 10:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. And we actually do still produce oxytocin over video and over the phone. So we still have it. What does oxytocin do for us? Yes, it makes us feel connected, but it actually gives us a feeling of belonging. So when I'm with you and I say, you know, man, I'm feeling so lonely. Like I'm so busy and I'm so tired and I'm lonely. I'm a new mom and I'm lonely. My friend can go, whoa, tell me everything. And I get this feeling of being understood and loved. So that oxytocin is happening. You know what oxytocin also does? And I found this in the research to this book. The untalked about benefit of good conversation is oxytocin improves our social cognition.

• 10:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Meaning if we are having synchronous conversation, we both become better at reading people.

• 11:05Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 11:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We become better at reading faces.

• 11:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We have become better at hearing the nuance in the voice. Ooh, your voice just cracked there. Are you okay? We get better at, was that a lie? Was that true? So also, we're better with people, which makes us feel better, which makes us more confident. The second thing that it's doing is chemically, it's creating dopamine. Now, dopamine does a lot of things in our body, but it's the chemical of pleasure. It's the chemical.

• 11:29Lewis Howes?

  Feel good.

• 11:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, it feels so good. It feels good, but it also gives us energy. Like that feeling of, tell me more. I wanna know more. I wanna do that with you. I wanna help you. Let's go see that movie. That is actually dopamine. And right now, we are directly competing. Our conversations are directly competing with our phones. You have a choice when you walk into a waiting room. You can scan your feed, or you can talk to the person next to you. I'll have a lot of students, you know, you, when you go into a classroom, you have a choice. Have your AirPods in and be on your phone?

• 12:00Lewis Howes?

  Or have a small conversation and connect.

• 12:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And we always choose the feed, or almost always choose the feed because it's more dopamine. So now.

• 12:08Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 12:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think our conversations have to compete with the feed. Our questions have to be so good, our stories have to be so good, that we actually pull you off of your phone. And that is a tremendous.

• 12:21Lewis Howes?

  And that's hard to do, though.

• 12:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Pressure. I wrote a whole book about it. It's a tremendous amount of pressure.

• 12:25Lewis Howes?

  How are you gonna be more funny, dramatic, interesting than a hundred videos in ten minutes?

• 12:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'll tell you how. I'll tell you how. So, yes, your feed is the funniest thing on the internet that day. It's, your feed is the best thing in the world for you at that moment. It's very hard to compete with that. But the one thing that AI cannot do is it cannot give you the feeling of being understood, because technology doesn't understand it that way. And it can also not help you feel chosen.

• 12:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think in all conversation, what we are deeply searching for is three things. Do you understand me? Do you choose me? And do you love me?

• 13:06Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And technology cannot do any of those three things.

• 13:10Lewis Howes?

  It can make me feel like, oh, there's a person talking about my challenge that is relatable. So I can relate to this person's idea, or their message, or their video, or tweet, or whatever it is.

• 13:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 13:20Lewis Howes?

  But you're not speaking to them.

• 13:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No. And, and you're not understood in that feeling of, I am being seen for who I am.

• 13:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 13:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, I offer these, what I call, power questions. And I, over the last two decades, so my research started with just studying patterns of conversation. Like, looking at very good conversationalists and analyzing what makes for a good conversation. Like, are there patterns?

• 13:43Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 13:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm a social over thinker. Which means, um, it's a fancy nice way of saying that I just rethink everything that I said, and always worry that I said the wrong thing.

• 13:52Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 13:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Um, and that was really hard, because I was like, what did I miss? What did I miss? So I just started just studying, what are the patterns? What are the people who say the right things? Like, are there right things? Are they doing something differently? Are they asking different questions? And what very quickly emerged, and this led to the second part of my research, is they are asking very highly specific questions. They are asking first questions that break autopilot. So they're not asking, how are you? What do you do? Where are you from? They're not asking those types of questions, because they, I think intuitively know it's gonna snap on autopilot. It's gonna be a boring conversation. No dopamine, right? The other thing that they're doing is they're asking questions, the way that, the only pattern I could see with all these questions, I was cataloging them, is they are looking for stories, not facts.

• 14:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  People who look for facts, I mean, technology can do that, right? We Google fact-check someone, we Google someone, you know, we're like, okay, married, lives in LA, right? Like, podcaster, right, author. Facts are dead ends, conversationally, right? Where are you from? LA. Where do you live in LA? Uh huh. How many kids you got? And, like, there, there's nowhere to go with that. And it creates a lot of conversational burden. So for us over thinkers, we're like, huh.

• 15:01Lewis Howes?

  Then you have to think of the next thing to ask, because there's, there's an ending. Okay, now I have to think of something next.

• 15:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then, like, what happens when you're like, what do I say next? It's very selfish. I'm listening less, because I know that in one word, it's gonna be a dead end. It's gonna be my turn again. Right? So it creates a lot of conversational obsession.

• 15:18Lewis Howes?

  I've learned that there's three words that you can say to make yourself one of the most interesting people in any room. The three words are, tell me more. That's it. Tell me more.

• 15:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Tell me more.

• 15:28Lewis Howes?

  And when you create a question that doesn't have, like, a conclusion, but it's a story, you can say, wow, that's fascinating. Tell me more.

• 15:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Tell me more.

• 15:34Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 15:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Okay, so tell me more is one of my favorite likeable phrases. I, I love it. And you're a good conversationalist, so you use it because, but if you were to ask a bad question at first, right, like, how many kids do you have? Tell me more. It'd be weird. Right, so you have to, in a way, set yourself up for success by asking for stories. You're asking for stories, you're also asking for emotions. So if you can.

• 15:53Lewis Howes?

  What are you most excited about is a great opener.

• 15:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, exactly.

• 15:57Lewis Howes?

  What are you most grateful for today? What are you most excited about? What's the biggest challenge in your life right now?

• 16:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Um, another, if I could add one more, those are like, chef's kiss.

• 16:05Lewis Howes?

  You've got, you've got.

• 16:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, no, those are beautiful. And those are also, you did something important there is, those are safe, level one questions.

• 16:12Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, oh.

• 16:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now.

• 16:13Lewis Howes?

  It's a level five. S tier.

• 16:17Lewis Howes?

  I want the S tier. I want the S tier.

• 16:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I love an S tier. I love an S tier. So, a mistake that extroverts make. You're an extrovert? Ever.

• 16:25Lewis Howes?

  I think so.

• 16:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think so. I don't wanna presume, you know, you don't wanna assume someone's status. So I think you're an extrovert. Now, my extroverts, I love you, extroverts. I love you. I love you.

• 16:34Lewis Howes?

  But you're all flawed.

• 16:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But.

• 16:36Lewis Howes?

  But you suck at this.

• 16:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But you suck at, no. But you so wanna connect, and you're so comfortable connecting, that you will sometimes skip level one and go too deep, too fast.

• 16:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, that's probably me.

• 16:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 16:48Lewis Howes?

  Lots of times, yeah. I've learned to read the room more now, but it's, you know, I used to do that a lot. It's like, go deep right away, where you kinda need some, you don't need small talk, but you need some.

• 16:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Level one.

• 16:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, level one.

• 16:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 16:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, so extroverts, we, you need to have, learn to have really great level one conversation. Not how are you, what to do, but like swapping out, what you did was expert, because you were swapping, how are you for what's been good?

• 17:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, what are you grateful for?

• 17:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What's exciting? What are you grateful for? Those are swaps. If you say, what is your greatest dream right now?

• 17:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, when you just meet someone.

• 17:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, like, no. So, the second part of my research was, I stumbled upon this study by Dr. Dan McAdams, and he found that there are three levels of connection, that we have to pass through, these three levels to connect with someone.

• 17:33Lewis Howes?

  What are those?

• 17:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so level one is called general traits. We have to start here, as humans. General traits are the basic facts about someone. Hometown, family status, job. Here's what's really hard, which I found shocking, is the social brain has to process social information in a hierarchy. Meaning, I cannot know your why and how before I know your what. I actually can't really connect with your dream and your goals and your learning unless I know the basics about you.

• 18:04Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I have to kinda know those basics. So extroverts, well, very, very well-meaning extroverts, they really wanna connect so bad, they skip it. Like, I don't need, I need to know that. I'm gonna skip right to level three. But it's, the brain literally cannot process that way. So level one is about finding out the facts through story. So asking, have any fun plans coming up? Do anything fun this past weekend? So it's the holidays, what, you know, what, what big plans, got any trips, spending time with the kids? So, if you have a wife and kids, you're gonna find a way to tell me. But I didn't ask you, do you have a wife and kids?

• 18:36Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 18:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? I, what do you do is another, like, I have a problem with that question.

• 18:41Lewis Howes?

  What is the worst question anyone should ask someone just meeting for the first time?

• 18:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The single worst question in any conversation is, been busy?

• 18:49Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 18:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Been busy? You are literally asking the other person's brain to search for negativity. You're literally reminding them of all the reasons why they shouldn't be in conversation with you.

• 18:58Lewis Howes?

  Because they're too busy.

• 18:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If you ask the brain, been busy? The brain goes, busy, busy, busy, busy, until it gets an example of being busy. Yes, I am busy.

• 19:05Lewis Howes?

  I'm exhausted, I'm doing this, and this, and this.

• 19:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or if they're not busy, well, then they, then they sound like a loser. No, no, I'm, I'm not busy.

• 19:12Lewis Howes?

  I got nothing going on in my life.

• 19:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No win.

• 19:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So been busy is the single worst question. The second worst question is, what do you do? And here's why. What do you do is socially scripted? Right? We've been asked and answered it so many times that the brain is gonna click, click, in the social script. It is impossible to create really genuine connection when someone is social scripted. This is why that boring small talk happens. What do you do? What do you do?

• 19:36Lewis Howes?

  Well, let's go to your kids' goddamn.

• 19:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  How'd you guys start in? Oh, wait, do you know? And it has that, like, tone, because the brain is not awake. It's like staying in that autopilot.

• 19:45Lewis Howes?

  What's the best response for someone to break the pattern? If someone asks you, what do you do?

• 19:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, yes, I have a formula. So, please, please, let's not ask these anymore. Okay, so like, we can all agree, let's all make a pact, small talk diet, no more, what do you do? How are you? Okay? But what we can do is people are gonna ask you boring questions.

• 20:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And that is an opportunity. Every single time somebody asks you, what do you do? You have an opportunity to break their autopilot, to wake them up so their brain goes, whoa. What you wanna do here is you wanna create small hooks that give somebody a very easy follow-up. Remember.

• 20:25Lewis Howes?

  What do you do? Whatever it takes.

• 20:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What do you do?

• 20:28Lewis Howes?

  Whatever.

• 20:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Surviving, drinking coffee, just today. Okay, so you have two choices. Actually, you did the first one. First, first one, you could be funny, right? So like, you.

• 20:36Lewis Howes?

  Whatever it takes.

• 20:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, I, I love it.

• 20:38Lewis Howes?

  For what?

• 20:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. I like, I like funny for how are you? Like, when someone asks, how are you? You don't have to say, good, busy, thanks. Or, but, good, fine, thanks.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  Funny.

• 20:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  How are you? Um, I, on a seven, on a scale of seven to 10, seven out of 10. Right? How are you? Um, I am here today. Right, like, you can break those with just funny. That's option number one. Um, if you're socially courageous, it takes a little bit of courage to be funny. Option two is you give them the story. So, what do you do should be, a basic formula that I have, is give them a label first. We, we do need a label. I do blank. I am a teacher, I am an author, I am in marketing. For who? We also like to know who you do it for, especially if that's me. Why?

• 21:21Lewis Howes?

  Well.

• 21:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I do for who, by what's your why? And in that answer, and again, everyone's answer is a little different here is you're trying to be easy to talk to.

• 21:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I, I think that the, the mistake that I made for many years in, in, in conversation. And I joke, I'm a recovering awkward person, as you know. My awkwardness came because I was, it's embarrassing, I was trying to be impressive. Like I was going into conversation, trying to like razzle dazzle and be impressive. No, actually, the best way to be in conversation is to be easy to talk to, is to put the other person at ease. The best way we can do that is if we have an answer that's extremely clear, my label, it gives my, my who and my what. Great. You know exactly what I do. And then I give you a very easy response or ask back. That puts the other person at ease and the entire conversation is better. It's also, I think, less selfish.

• 22:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Conversational selfishness comes from being so into your answers that you have to show something that you are, be performative. I think the best thing is to try to like toss it back. Tell me more or also like, here's a story for you. Do you like it?

• 22:29Lewis Howes?

  What if you're just both like, you tell me more, now you tell me more, now you tell me, yes, now you tell me.

• 22:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, okay. This is a really.

• 22:35Lewis Howes?

  This is still part of general, this is still part of general.

• 22:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're still level one, we're still level one. Okay. So by the way, you can't make it to level two unless you make it to level one. Right? So these are really good questions because.

• 22:44Lewis Howes?

  I just like skipping levels though.

• 22:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, no, no, no, no, skip levels, no skip levels. No, no, we have to do level one. So it's a great question. Sometimes introverts, like I have an entire chapter on introverts because introverts often want to listen first. And I believe this is a big, you're, you can argue with me on this if you don't, if you don't agree. I think there are two types of people in the world. There are entertainers and there are appreciators. Entertainers love to tell story. They want you to laugh at their jokes. They want you to, they want to share their opinion. They're happy to drive the conversation both with question and with story. They like sharing. It makes them feel alive and heard. Appreciators love to listen. They love to ask the good questions and they want to be entertained. They want to hear your good story.

• 23:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They want to laugh at your jokes. They actually get a lot of joy from laughing at other people's stories and conversations and jokes. The problem is if you have two appreciators in a conversation, it's going to be hard. Right? So when you're.

• 23:43Lewis Howes?

  You can't be both.

• 23:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We default to one. Of course we can dial up into, like, I, I'm actually an appreciator, but I interview. Like I, I'm in interviews, right? I don't have a podcast, so I have to.

• 23:53Lewis Howes?

  Turn it on.

• 23:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I have to turn it on, right? Like, but I'm on, but like this is, I'm turning it on, right? Because I know that I have to step into that role. In a conversation, if you can be conversationally flexible, it's a gift.

• 24:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, both hands.

• 24:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Both hands. So if your boss, this is a mistake people make with bosses. Bosses are often, not always, appreciators. So a mistake that people will make is they'll go to their boss and they'll ask questions. Tell me about your weekend or, you know, what'd you think of the game? Or, and the boss is like, you know, you entertain me. I talk all day.

• 24:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So in this way, and this takes a little bit of preparation, but I think it's worth it. In level one, can you prepare for boring questions? Can you prepare for the things you're asked the most often? And so I would make a list of the questions you are asked the most often. What are gifts you can give? Either stories that are longer, if you have an, a, a, a appreciator. Um, or, um, stories that are, stories that are longer, if you have an entertainer or stories that are shorter, if you have an appreciator. You guys prepare for both.

• 24:52Lewis Howes?

  That's general traits.

• 24:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  General traits, okay.

• 24:54Lewis Howes?

  Step two.

• 24:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. So you've, you've mastered someone's general traits and level one is all about putting someone at ease. And then you feel like, you know, I think we can level up. So level two is called personal concerns. Personal concerns are goals, motivations, values, personality traits. When you're on level two with someone, you know two things about them. This is kind of self-check. You know what gets them up in the morning. You know what like pulls them through the day. You know what like they're driving towards, what motivates them. But you also know what keeps them up at night. You know what worries them. You know what?

• 25:30Lewis Howes?

  What keeps you up at night?

• 25:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This book launch.

• 25:34Lewis Howes?

  I'm feeling.

• 25:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I mean, I just feel so.

• 25:36Lewis Howes?

  It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work.

• 25:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And also I, like, I so strongly.

• 25:42Lewis Howes?

  You're always like, why am I doing this again?

• 25:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so I, yeah, this book launch. Keep me up at night. Um, and you know, book, book launches are hard because reading is a commitment.

• 25:54Lewis Howes?

  It is.

• 25:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I know, asking someone to buy a book, it's a big expense. I know. And then you're asking, can I have eight hours of your life?

• 26:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Can I have eight hours of your life?

• 26:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What a huge ask. So, um, that's what's keeping me up at night. And I think asking that is also a gift to me because I can ask for your help and you already are helping by having me here.

• 26:15Lewis Howes?

  Got your back.

• 26:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right?

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 26:20Lewis Howes?

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• 27:03Lewis Howes?

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• 27:27Lewis Howes?

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• 28:10Lewis Howes?

  Hiring now, then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 28:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So level two, here's the key for level two is, it's a couple of questions. One is asking about goals and being more comfortable in your relationships, asking about goals. You know, yes, I'm talking about social interactions, but I'm also talking about work interactions.

• 28:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, do you know what all of your colleagues are working on? What's their professional goal? What's their health goal? What's their social goal? Being more comfortable, if you're on level two with them, talking about like, what are you working on? Like what, you know, if it's KPIs, sure, like if it's quantifiable, that's great, but also just like, you know, how can I support you? Right? And so goals, I call it dream building. Are you dream building with the people in your life? Or are you accidentally dream killing? Dream killers destroy connection in level two.

• 28:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm assuming we've all probably been there as well as also experienced it from others, whether it be, I don't know what you're going to say here, but it's probably like, if you're just speaking negatively or gossiping or doing things that are like pulling down versus speaking about possibilities.

• 29:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  So if you're entering into conversations, like, I don't know, that are just negative, then it's, okay, maybe there is some common connection about something we don't like or we didn't approve of, or Sally said this, whatever. But is it empowering us to move forward?

• 29:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. Negative is the first aspect of dream killing, but it's not the only aspect. And I also don't think that you have to be positive to dream build. Like there is such a thing as toxic positivity, right? Like we also don't want that. What dream killing, the way that I think about it, and when I observed dream builders and dream killers as leaders, right? This is a lot of my corporate talks are seeing how these two folks manage and lead. Dream builders are additive. They are constantly adding, so they are asking, tell me more. They are adding questions. They are adding curiosity. They are adding to whatever it is, the fire that is being stoked. Dream killers are subtractive. They are taking away. They're poking holes in balloons. They also do this thing, and I think this is most of your viewers, I think.

• 30:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Very smart people have the tendency to accidentally dream kill with trying to be helpful.

• 30:21Lewis Howes?

  How so?

• 30:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Dream killers often, not always, have a very good intention. They want to help you with their goal, but did you know? But did you know? Well, you know, the, the market is really, that's already been done before.

• 30:32Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I, I don't think that's going to work.

• 30:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's gonna be too hard.

• 30:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like, you know, have you thought about this? I don't know if you've thought about that. And so a lot of the times the smartest people in the room are dream killing because they're actually trying to be helpful.

• 30:46Lewis Howes?

  It's a good thing I'm always the dumbest person in the room, you know? Lifting others up. Hey.

• 30:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a bonus of being additive. Oh, so I think I just share this because one, if you've been accidentally dream killed. I, I wouldn't, maybe it was, maybe there was good intention there, maybe, not always. And if you're an accidental dream killer, I just, like a lot of my students, I'll, I share this lesson, you know, I teach it and then they're like.

• 31:09Lewis Howes?

  I do this, or I've done this.

• 31:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I've done this.

• 31:11Lewis Howes?

  Or I do this now.

• 31:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. Or like accuracy dream killing. Like I was with a couple recently and the, the, my friend was, I don't want to name them. My friend was like, oh, you know, last weekend, the craziest thing happened. We went on this road trip. We were on the 101. Her husband goes, no, no, it wasn't the 101, it was a 405. Right? We were on the 405 and it was so hot. Well, it actually wasn't that hot. It was, it was hot on the highway, but it wasn't hot outside. Right? So it wasn't hot. We were on the, and like he wouldn't let her get to the story. Now, the point of the story was something totally different, but he was trying to be accurate, which came from a good intention. But it dream killed the momentum of what she was trying to say. So I think that this is.

• 31:45Lewis Howes?

  Fact check later, you know, not interrupting constantly.

• 31:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Gut check, not fact check.

• 31:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like one of my big bold quotes is like, we have to gut check before we fact check.

• 31:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, maybe it was not a hundred percent accurate, but let's hear the rest of the story.

• 31:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or like, is this the time for that?

• 31:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Is this the time to fact check? I always want to fact check, but their timing is issue and this is where level two is more nuanced. Right? Level two is nuanced. You're in work relationships with people you, it's very important. You get along with them at work. It's your partner sharing their big side hustle idea. There is nuance here of the timing of when we are additive and how we are additive.

• 32:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. And that's level number two.

• 32:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Level two.

• 32:20Lewis Howes?

  Personal, personal concerns.

• 32:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Concerns. So.

• 32:23Lewis Howes?

  Dream killing or dream building?

• 32:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Got to dream build, not dream kill. And then the last little aspects. S, well, we're not, well, yeah, I mean.

• 32:31Lewis Howes?

  They're level.

• 32:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Dreams are, dreams are S tier. Okay, dreams are really high. Okay. So a couple of notes before we get to level three here is level two also does some very nuanced things psychologically. If I could talk a little bit of psychology, okay. So, um.

• 32:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I studied master conversationalist and one of those was Howard Stern.

• 32:49Lewis Howes?

  He's incredible at what he does.

• 32:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I mean, he, he has these incredible conversations with people where he asks questions that have never been asked before. He can get people to open up. And now however you feel about Howard Stern, right? Like, we can still learn from how he has conversations. So I studied thousands of hours of his transcripts, looking for patterns. Like, how does he do it?

• 33:09Lewis Howes?

  Stern, what are the biggest things that Howard Stern does?

• 33:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So the biggest thing that he does, the name, the only name I could think of is like, there's a pattern here. I call it conversational confetti. Howard Stern has the unique ability to make conversation very exciting, especially in level two, by sprinkling in phrases like, what's the weirdest thing that ever happened to you? You're never gonna believe yesterday, the most embarrassing thing. I couldn't believe it. The worst thing I've ever seen was the worst piece of advice, the best piece of advice, the most embarrassing thing, the weirdest thing. And what he's doing, I was like, oh, my goodness, he is creating what are called information gaps. So the brain wants to know everything. It does not like having any gaps in any information.

• 33:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So when the brain hears the worst piece of advice I've ever been given, the brain's like, well, what is it? Right? It creates an information gap and the brain will do anything to hear it. So we lean in, we listen better, we get excited, it creates an, and then he always answers with something really on par. Like, he would never say, you know, the craziest thing happened to me yesterday, I got a coffee. He would never say that. So it's always authentic, right?

• 34:15Lewis Howes?

  I was running around naked in New York City or, you know, whatever it is.

• 34:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 34:19Lewis Howes?

  Crazy thing.

• 34:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It was actually crazy.

• 34:20Lewis Howes?

  Tell me more.

• 34:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So like, it is, one is, we ne- never use these inauthentically. In fact, what I actually want to think of is, you actually have some very exciting, interesting, worst, best things. We just have to preface it.

• 34:32Lewis Howes?

  One of the things that we do here when we have a new team member, and they're kind of like in their first team call.

• 34:40Lewis Howes?

  We try not to be like Howard Stern, fully on, but we ask people, you know, what's your most embarrassing story?

• 34:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, I love.

• 34:46Lewis Howes?

  You know, and it's kind of like breaking the ice in that way of like,

• 34:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Love.

• 34:49Lewis Howes?

  Reveal a little bit more about you.

• 34:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I mean, that's level two, dude.

• 34:52Lewis Howes?

  You can make it PG, you know, it doesn't have to be like some crazy thing here.

• 34:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Do you share yours?

• 34:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 34:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, great, okay, good. But that's level two.

• 34:59Lewis Howes?

  No, we, and I always make, and I always make my COO share his, which he crapped his pants one time. So as an adult, you know, so I was like, okay. You know, as long as he leaves with that, then anything else is free game.

• 35:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then you set a vulnerability bar.

• 35:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 35:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like, you set the stage of like, we all make mistakes, we all have embarrassing things. So one is just to take a step back from your stories and your conversation and just think about like, what cool stuff do I have to share? Like, what is a weird thing that happened? What's a surprising that I learned? What is the best advice? What's the worst piece of advice? It's weird to think about yourself in that way, but it actually is more fun. It's more engaging for you. So I think, A, he's having more fun in conversation because he's thinking that way. But we can too. We can do it authentically. I would never do it inauthentically. But as I began to think about it, I was like, you know, actually, there are some really funny, embarrassing moments or stories. And so now, when I'm living, like, just living my life, if something weird and crazy happens, I'm like, bringing this up in story tomorrow. So in a weird way, it also like adds more depth to even my day to day.

• 35:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So sprinkling in these kinds of conversations in creates information gaps, which we want. And the other thing I will suggest, this is a really brave one, this is really brave, but I'm, I think people are brave who are watching, okay, ready? You could also play guessing games in conversation.

• 36:13Lewis Howes?

  Give me an example.

• 36:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, this works really well with introverts too. So, um, Louis, how many kids do you have? Oh, wait, let me guess.

• 36:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, don't let me answer.

• 36:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Don't let you guess.

• 36:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because I, I just, this happens, I actually, this, I created this tip accidentally because I kept accidentally asking fact questions.

• 36:31Lewis Howes?

  Answering and then answer, yeah, yeah.

• 36:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, so, um,

• 36:34Lewis Howes?

  Where do you live? Oh, let me guess.

• 36:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, no, yes, yes. So like, if I'm at like a conference and it comes up, or I accidentally ask, you know, where are you from? Wait, let me guess. You look like a Cape Cod kind of person, right?

• 36:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then you just like, you can play, right? Or like, my favorite is like, um, so what are your kids' names? Let me guess. Or I'll guess birth order, you know, I'll guess where they're from.

• 36:56Lewis Howes?

  That's fun.

• 36:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Just like, it, I know this takes a little bit of courage.

• 37:00Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 37:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But it's, it's playful. And I think like, what are we doing if we're not having a little fun in conversation?

• 37:07Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent.

• 37:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, like, yes, some of it is very serious. And we're about to get to level three, and that's where it gets more serious. But like, can we play in level two?

• 37:14Lewis Howes?

  A lot of it should be play.

• 37:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A lot of it should be play. Like, I, I love coming on here because we are playful in conversation, like, right? We could play guessing game, we could whatever we want. Um, I think that having the courage to bring that element of play into your conversations at work, at home.

• 37:31Lewis Howes?

  Are there certain questions you should never ask women if you're a man? And are there certain questions you should never ask men if you're a woman?

• 37:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Why are you single?

• 37:42Lewis Howes?

  People do that a lot, though, right?

• 37:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Never agree.

• 37:44Lewis Howes?

  Don't they do that sometimes?

• 37:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I know. Let's not.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  You seem amazing, but why are you single?

• 37:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, no. Any question for both men or women that puts someone on the defensive or sets them up to fail. I think it been busy is like a set up to fail question, right? Because you either have to be busy and talk about how busy you are, which by the way, the research shows, talking about how busy you are makes you look less competent. So you're actually setting someone up to look and sound more incompetent.

• 38:10Lewis Howes?

  You look stressed. You don't like, look like you're in control of your life or responsible, you're just overwhelmed.

• 38:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. So like, why, why would you have them do that? Or they're gonna have to disagree with you. So like, why are you single? One, are they really gonna like feel comfortable sharing that? No. Um, I also don't love the questions like, what is your greatest weakness? You know, I work with a lot of companies and we talk about hiring practices and, you know, what, interviews should be conversations, in my opinions, right? Like, in my opinion, interviews are a way for you to connect with the, the interviewee to the manager and the manager to the interviewee. And so approaching every single work conversation as a conversation, even a performance review, even an interview, in that we're trying to set someone up for success. And so any questions that puts someone on the defensive, I don't love.

• 38:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Um, so, why are you single? What's your greatest weakness? And there's one other question that I'm a little bit careful of for both men and women, which is,

• 39:06Lewis Howes?

  How much do you weigh?

• 39:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, I don't even care about that one.

• 39:10Lewis Howes?

  How old are you?

• 39:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I mean,

• 39:12Lewis Howes?

  Who cares?

• 39:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Who cares?

• 39:13Lewis Howes?

  Maybe not, but yeah.

• 39:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's also fact based. It's like, it's like straight to level one, right? Right? It's like, it's one way, yes, one word answer. Um, you can't be like, tell me more. How much do you weigh? Tell me more. The last question I do not like, that I have problems with is, uh, what's your story?

• 39:30Lewis Howes?

  So hard. Where do you want to start?

• 39:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you.

• 39:33Lewis Howes?

  It's like Esther Perel, where should we begin?

• 39:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 39:35Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's like,

• 39:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's too much.

• 39:37Lewis Howes?

  It's a lot. Well, you must start with five. You must start last year. You must start like,

• 39:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. And the extrovert's gonna be like, well, you know, starting the child, I don't know, college years, like, it's, it's, it's too much pressure.

• 39:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And, you know, just mechanically speaking, I was looking at the mechanics of conversation for this, and the candor corpus is the biggest database on conversation. And they found that turn-taking, just so we are clear, is fifteen to thirty seconds. So you speak fifteen to thirty seconds, I speak fifteen to thirty seconds. That's helpful, right? Like, and by the way, if you think you overtalk or you undertalk, I would recommend listening to a pre- previously recorded call or time yourself. If you're speaking for thirty seconds and it feels too long, you might be under talking. If you're speaking for thirty seconds and you're like, wow, that went so fast, you might be over talking. Once we get to forty-five seconds, it actually begins to feel like conversational narcissism. Like, it's like, whoa, like, this person's like taking up a lot of air.

• 40:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If you ask someone, what's your story, you're setting them up to be a conversational narcissist.

• 40:35Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 40:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's too much. It's too much for them to say. And it's level three. Level three is self-narrative. That's the story you tell yourself about yourself. Actually, you know, your book, when you were talking about like the masks we wear.

• 40:52Lewis Howes?

  Mask and masculinity?

• 40:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yep. I, when I read that book, I was like, wow, this is such a great take on narrative, on self-narrative. And I was actually doing my research on self-narrative then, but it wasn't ready yet. It's kind of like the mask we wear, but it's the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. It's how we make sense of our journey and purpose in life. It's how we answer the question, how did you get to where you are today? So when somebody asks you in an Uber, what's your story? It's like trying to jump to level three and you're making me be a conversational narcissist. Any version of that question, right? Like,

• 41:28Lewis Howes?

  So what's a better question to ask someone instead of what's your story?

• 41:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so now we have a choice, right? Like, I'm like, okay, let's get ready.

• 41:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If you are at level three with them, I can teach you some questions. But are you?

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, before I teach us level three, and I will, I will. But like, usually, level three is reserved for your most intimate, closest people.

• 41:51Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 41:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I don't, I think maybe two or three people in your life might really truly be here.

• 41:58Lewis Howes?

  So we shouldn't go there with most people?

• 42:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think a mistake that we make in work conversation, right? Like, work conversation is a really important aspect of culture and engagement. Like, if, if companies are not thinking about work conversation, they are missing the opportunity. Work conversations are, are career insurance against AI. If you can have great conversations at work, you have career insurance against this technology. But if you go too deep, too fast.

• 42:19Lewis Howes?

  Then what?

• 42:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  People are like, whoa. Right? If you are trying to talk self-narrative in the five minutes before your collaboration team call.

• 42:26Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 42:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're setting yourselves up for failure.

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  But I guess the level two, personal kind of goals, dreams is still.

• 42:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Still level two, it's okay.

• 42:33Lewis Howes?

  It's still great, yeah, yeah.

• 42:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, because you can.

• 42:35Lewis Howes?

  So you're not surface level, you're still going deeper.

• 42:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But safely deeper, right?

• 42:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I see what you're saying.

• 42:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or like, for example, you know, I notice a lot of my, my team is virtual. And so we have a team call every Tuesday. Actually, I had the team call on the way here today.

• 42:46Lewis Howes?

  Nice.

• 42:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Um, and we start, I noticed the beginning of our meetings were sort of, I would say, wasted small talk. Like the weather.

• 42:54Lewis Howes?

  It was the weather, what'd you do this weekend?

• 42:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Lunch is coming up, you know, it was like, it was like, it was accidentally negative.

• 43:01Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 43:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it was just, no connection was happening at all. So I changed this a couple of years ago where I said, right when we log in, we're doing, tell me something good. We're going around really quickly, you share one really quick, good thing.

• 43:13Lewis Howes?

  I liked it. Every, you know, I like having you on because you just reaffirm that I'm hopefully doing some things well. You know what I mean?

• 43:21Lewis Howes?

  Cause I'm like, everything you said here, I'm like, I like that because most of it, I feel like we are doing a lot of it in some way. And there's a lot of the things we can improve on.

• 43:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There's a reason why this is so successful.

• 43:31Lewis Howes?

  But I talked to Matt, my, you know, person who runs the business.

• 43:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Lewis Howes?

  And often, I'm like, what's the good news today? Like, tell me some good news.

• 43:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 43:40Lewis Howes?

  Instead of like, what's the problem we need to fix? Because business is all about fixing problems automatically. It's like, there's always going to be some type of challenge that you're overcoming. It's never, I sold millions of copies today, everyone, you know, it's always something you've got to overcome.

• 43:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 43:55Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 43:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 43:56Lewis Howes?

  That's just business in general.

• 43:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 43:58Lewis Howes?

  But if we can frame it with, what's the good news today? Or tell me something good today.

• 44:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Something good.

• 44:01Lewis Howes?

  Or, especially when you feel overwhelmed, or overworked, or.

• 44:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a lifeline.

• 44:08Lewis Howes?

  Like, challenge after challenge just keeps hitting you.

• 44:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 44:11Lewis Howes?

  Tell me something good, it helps you go back into the, the dream building rather than dream killing.

• 44:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it's, it's a casual way to do it, and it's a gift for your introverts.

• 44:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And introverts often, they're like, when do I share? Right? So like, I'm an ambivert, I'm somewhere in between, but for what I noticed, pattern wise, introverts will, will not share because they don't, they don't want to interrupt, they don't want to feel, they don't have the right time. So if you have a, a norm setting in your work culture of tell me something good, it allows introverts, one, they can prep for it. They know it's coming.

• 44:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Two, it gives them a very box time, they can take 20 seconds, oh, I have a great cup of coffee today. It can be super casual, or it could be like, my daughter went to college. Right? It could be like, small or big. It's norm building so that I kind of have a pulse check of my team. Right? Like, I don't always have time for one on ones every week, or my team is too big. But if it's something good and I can be like, oh, you know, someone says, oh, my, my, my parents are in town this week. I can know, cool, okay, like, maybe I, I'll try to email after hours, try to text after hours, because her parents are in town. Right? So it allows me as a manager to just really quickly see like, what's going on for you? And, and this is the best part. So, uh, two years ago, my team member came to me and she said, you know, Monday is my do-good day. So I have something good to share in the meeting on Tuesday.

• 45:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I thought, if you ask, if you're known for asking good questions, you set people up for goodness.

• 45:31Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 45:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like, if you're, if people are know you and like, be known for asking what's good. Be known for asking, have anything fun and exciting coming up? Because then people save that stuff for you.

• 45:41Lewis Howes?

  Yes, they're excited to tell you when they see you.

• 45:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They, they're so excited. Now, I need to mention here, what if it's not good? Right? Like, what if they don't have anything fun and exciting? It's a really hard and challenging time. Great, that is an opportunity. Right? I would much rather have the kind of level two relationships where I say, have anything fun and exciting? And you say, you know, I've been really going through it. And I go, oh, my gosh, tell me more.

• 46:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Tell me everything. So it's also an opportunity for if something is going badly, instead of how are you? There is no permission there.

• 46:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? If I ask my team member, how are you? I don't want to hear, right? Like, that's like.

• 46:20Lewis Howes?

  Now you're in California, you can speak like that.

• 46:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. My California accent's coming back, I know. Um, so like, if I ask, how are you, it's not really asking, how are you? It's not really. And so if I ask, like, anything fun and exciting, it gives you permission, we've broken the script to say, it's either good or it's not good. So if it's not good, or something's not fun and exciting, that is also good. In that it is level two.

• 46:42Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 46:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I, I think that dream building piece works. Now, level three, let's talk about self-narrative for a second. So, the research shows the story you tell yourself about yourself is self-creating. Meaning, if you tell yourself that you attract good things and you are very lucky, you are more likely to see the world through a luck frame.

• 47:05Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 47:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And what I really have been thinking about a lot with this research was, this is not about the facts of your life, it's about the frames of your life. How do you see the facts of your life?

• 47:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 47:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  When you begin to think about, how am I interpreting the facts of my life? How is my partner? How is my kid? How is my parent? How is my colleague? You begin to see patterns. And this is, the whole reason I wrote it, is if we can truly see people for the patterns that they are repeating over and over again, we are truly understanding them. We are truly seeing them for who they are. And if they want to change it, the only way to change your self-narrative, really the only way, is your conversation.

• 47:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 47:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  First of all, I've done this, so, okay, we, the, the, these three levels exist, right? I read the research, I was like, great. I take it out in the world and I'm like, so what's your self-narrative? People are like, what? So it's a very weird level, because you often cannot self-diagnose. And so, how weird is that? That I can give you all the facts about self-narratives, I can tell you about frames, I can tell you about redemption versus contamination narratives, there's different types of narratives. And we can do some soul searching, we can do some journaling. But you can only get so far. It is really hard to see it without asking your best friend.

• 48:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And your partner.

• 48:23Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now, and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops, because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Support for this episode comes from Ring. Whatever shows up around home this holiday season, with Ring, you're protected. The holidays get busy fast. You're running errands, gifts are showing up at the house, maybe you're traveling and that's a lot happening at once.

• 49:08Lewis Howes?

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• 49:52Lewis Howes?

  That's what I look for, especially when I find something that works in a lot of different situations. And one of those pieces for me right now is Quince's 100% organic cotton mesh stitch sweater polo. It's an easy staple to work into my wardrobe. And that's exactly what Quince does well. They focus on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials in timeless, versatile styles. So you're getting pieces you can keep reaching for. And it's not just clothing. Quince brings the same approach to hotel-quality bedding and bath, kitchen essentials, and thoughtful-designed furniture. Find your next fall favorites at Quince.

• 50:33Lewis Howes?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers and go to quince.com/lewis. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK. Two, that's Q U I N C E dot com slash Lewis. I'm curious then Vanessa, what's the thing that you feel you struggle with the most internally or externally?

• 50:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh my gosh, yes.

• 50:58Lewis Howes?

  That all of your friends or colleagues say you're crazy because you're so good at this or you do this so well. What's the thing that you self reflect on and feel like you're not where you want to be?

• 51:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Charging for anything.

• 51:12Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 51:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Lewis Howes?

  You struggle with wanting to charge?

• 51:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I really struggle with wanting to charge.

• 51:17Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 51:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  People are like, you're like, what do you mean? Like it's like, they're like, it's worth it or the course is worth it. Or like you're speaking, you've seen me speak, right? Like this speaking is, but I fundamentally, this is part of my narrative is I feel like whatever I'm going to say is not worthwhile. Or like it's not worthy of payment. Like I just want to give it to you for free.

• 51:36Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 51:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so like, I really, it's the hardest part of my business is that I have to sell anything. If I could, I would turn my whole business into a nonprofit. I would give away all my curriculum to schools and organizations. I think this curriculum should be in every school, but I literally have to pay my bills. I, I have a great team. I have a very high function, high performance team.

• 51:57Lewis Howes?

  You gotta pay them. Yeah.

• 51:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I want to pay them well. So I have to charge because to, to run this business, we do need a team. It's really hard to run this business. You know, I know it doesn't look complicated, but boy, it's very hard. Social media is hard.

• 52:09Lewis Howes?

  Now let me, let me role play this then.

• 52:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 52:12Lewis Howes?

  For a second.

• 52:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. No, don't fix me. What's happening? Okay.

• 52:15Lewis Howes?

  I'm not fixing you.

• 52:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 52:17Lewis Howes?

  But.

• 52:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Are you going to fix myself narrative? What's going on?

• 52:19Lewis Howes?

  Well, if we're talking about self narrative.

• 52:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

• 52:22Lewis Howes?

  And this is part of your self-reflection. Um, that's hard for you to charge.

• 52:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 52:28Lewis Howes?

  Based on our relationship.

• 52:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 52:30Lewis Howes?

  Would it be taboo for me to say, what age did that belief start? Is that too self narrative-y of a conversation?

• 52:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, that's perfect. No, that's perfect.

• 52:42Lewis Howes?

  Or should I bring it back to level two?

• 52:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, that's level three.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  You know what? How's that hurting your dreams?

• 52:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. Right. No, that's perfect. Cause like you're doing a harvesting question, right? Like we're, we're trying to.

• 52:51Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, like what age did that belief or story begin in you?

• 52:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I love it.

• 52:55Lewis Howes?

  Not to say like, let's go into therapy for the next 60 minutes, but as a self-reflection question for you to then say, I don't know what you're going to say, but for you to respond, think about it and say, how does this empower me and build my dream?

• 53:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. And was there a moment?

• 53:08Lewis Howes?

  Does this, does this belief or idea serve me or?

• 53:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Lewis Howes?

  Suppress me?

• 53:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think that that's, that is exactly the right kind of conversation. I think it, it had to have been in my early twenties, which is my most like awkward stage, which is like the start of my career, right? Like, uh, feeling like I don't know enough. So how could I charge anything? Like, right? I was like really good at being a free intern. Right? Like I was really good at that.

• 53:35Lewis Howes?

  Twenty hours a day for free.

• 53:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it. I was so good at that. I also think for someone at home too, it's interesting that you would ask that question because you actually tapped into something you do naturally. One harvesting question you can ask in level three with people, because they won't know. If you ask most yourself narrative, they won't know. But if you say, what would the title of your memoir be? And then what are your life chapters? So kind of that was like, oh, I wonder if that's my 20 something life chapter. Like there was a moment in there where I had to start negotiating for like my salary. What would it would be? Um, and I'm in my forties now, so it's still there, but like I could fit it in.

• 54:10Lewis Howes?

  I didn't ask her her age, by the way, you know.

• 54:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I, I, so asking what's, or thinking, what's the title of your memoir? What are your life chapters? Could you plot where the frames came in, right? Like that, I think that's tremendously helpful. And like we could, if we were at lunch and not in an interview, we would talk about that for a long time.

• 54:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right?

• 54:29Lewis Howes?

  But for me, I mean, and maybe this is a downfall of mine because I like to, you know, and usually it's people that I know somewhat well, I guess, maybe not like we're best friends, but people that I've known for a while. I like to ask those types of questions.

• 54:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 54:41Lewis Howes?

  And I also like people asking me those questions as well.

• 54:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 54:44Lewis Howes?

  But not everyone does. Not everyone feels ready for that. Not everyone feels like comfortable in someone asking them a question like, what age were you when this belief began that is holding you back now from actually being free of this money conversation and feeling like you can't charge for your worth?

• 54:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 54:59Lewis Howes?

  So.

• 55:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But, but that's good. That is good. Not everyone is your people.

• 55:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I, I think you ask that question to someone and they're like, oh wow, they think about it. You're like, great. They're my people. We can go there.

• 55:11Lewis Howes?

  And I wouldn't ask that if I'm just meeting you probably. Maybe I would, but you mean after like an hour, maybe I would ask.

• 55:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. If you had, if you had hit levels, you can do it in one conversation, right? You can go up in one conversation. But the person who jokes with you and, and, and brushes it off and doesn't want that question, that's not your person.

• 55:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Let's stay back on level one then.

• 55:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. So like, when you ask, for example, and I've asked this question to many people, like what's the title of your memoir? Some people are jokey and then I go, ah, they're not ready.

• 55:36Lewis Howes?

  They're not ready. Yeah. Yeah.

• 55:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But good to know. Either they're not ready or they're not my person. Cause I like level three, right? Like I like to go to level two and level three with people as quickly as possible.

• 55:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I know I'm going to get along with a new friend. Like right now I'm literally, I moved to a new city. I'm making new, brand new friends right where I am. Um, and I want to get to level two and level three as quickly as possible.

• 55:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And maybe like the, I don't know why the book title, what's the title of the book? I think it's called, I'm glad my mom died.

• 56:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Jenna, Jenna McCurdy.

• 56:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 56:05Lewis Howes?

  And maybe if like you're tied, if you were originally starting with like, I'm glad my mom died, ha, ha, ha. But then there's a, but then there's a subtitle of like, and how I learned to heal my inner child and the process of, you know, the relationship with my mom.

• 56:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 56:17Lewis Howes?

  Then you're like, okay, they can bring a little humor, but there also some depth there.

• 56:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 56:21Lewis Howes?

  Tell me more.

• 56:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. Tell me more about that. And you just learned so much about her in one sentence.

• 56:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 56:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so I think like.

• 56:28Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 56:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There, there's two things here that I would just incur, invite people to think about, encourage people to think about, which is listening for narrative hints. People are actually leaking their narrative to you all the time in conversation, if you know what to listen for. So one, you can ask those beautiful questions, right? Like that is a beautiful question of like, when did that belief start? But even if you're not asking level three questions yet, you can hear when someone says superlatives, always and never. Oh, that always happens to me. I just never find that. Oh, think, good things always come my way. Isn't there always something? Those are actual leaks.

• 57:05Lewis Howes?

  There's never enough time, you know, whatever it is. Yeah.

• 57:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There's never enough time. And so that brings me to work narratives. So sometimes your entire life self narrative is a lot, right? Like it's, it's very deep. You might get it with your best friends, your partner. But work narratives are, are safe. A work narrative is a story that someone tells themselves about their success or a task. So for example, a work narrative, you just brought one up, is I had a team member. Every single time I had to check in with him, oh, so busy. There's never enough time. It's just never enough time. And I, this was true at the beginning and then like we were on boarded and, and then we had a launch and then we were done with our launch. And I was like, you know, I've noticed that I have it in my notes. Every single time we've met, you've always said there's never enough time. Is there ever enough time?

• 57:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And he was like, well, isn't there, there's never, it's always the case. And I was like, but why is that always the case? And we were able to have a conversation about that idea that he was actually setting himself up to always be overwhelmed and busy because he truly didn't believe there was another way. I said, actually, I think there is another way. I don't want you to always be in go, go, go, go, go, go. You're going to burn out. I don't want you to feel like you're always in hustle mode. Let's create time pockets for you where you actually don't feel like that is the case. And then we are going to build them into our schedule. Cause when you feel like there's not enough time, I also feel like there's not enough time.

• 58:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That is a very scarcity mindset.

• 58:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That conversation was a game changer for us. Like we were able to get more on the same page. It unearthed all these other things that want time management and task management. That's a work narrative. So also beginning to talk about how we think about our success is extremely helpful with people we work with.

• 58:44Lewis Howes?

  I mean, you're, you're a scientist, right? You study.

• 58:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Behavioral researcher.

• 58:47Lewis Howes?

  Beings.

• 58:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I study behavior. Yeah.

• 58:49Lewis Howes?

  You study like social behavior, conversations, body language, all these things around human dynamics.

• 58:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 58:56Lewis Howes?

  And if our goal is to have,

• 58:59Lewis Howes?

  I mean, maybe it's not our goal, but I, I feel like our goal is to have beautiful relationships with human beings in our lives. Right? It's part of the reason why we're here is you said in the beginning, one out of six people in the world feel lonely or are lonely.

• 59:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Affected by loneliness.

• 59:13Lewis Howes?

  Or identify or affected by loneliness. And therefore there is some level of suffering that they're experiencing because of that. Maybe it's tied to something else, but if they're not feeling connected,

• 59:25Lewis Howes?

  they're going to have a worse experience in life than a better one, in my opinion. And what you said in the beginning as well is like, one of the main things that we all want as human beings is to be heard, seen, understood, which essentially means we want to feel we are loved and chosen by other people.

• 59:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 59:40Lewis Howes?

  And so if everything we do in conversation should be finding ways to make people feel less lonely or make people feel more connected. And really find ways to make sure people feel heard, seen and understood. So they are experiencing love and the feeling of being chosen.

• 59:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:00:00Lewis Howes?

  Then shouldn't we always be asking these types of questions that lead into that feeling of life experience with the people we're closest with? Maybe not work team in a certain level, maybe there's a level there, obviously of like, how deep you want to go, but shouldn't we be asking the questions around psychological blocks that hold us back from being our best selves? Just like the one I did with you, which is like, when did that belief begin?

• 1:00:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:27Lewis Howes?

  If that's something you're struggling with.

• 1:00:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Lewis Howes?

  Shouldn't we be focusing on not maybe like how to overcome that more than anything else, but wouldn't that set our relationship to whole new levels? If we ask those types of questions and allow ourselves to figure them out together? Again, not fix each other.

• 1:00:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 1:00:45Lewis Howes?

  But find ways to build our dream life together.

• 1:00:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think that that is the thing that we are searching for every moment of every day. But we don't realize it.

• 1:00:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So we don't realize we are deeply searching and seeking for someone to understand my story, to someone foresee me who I am. So we approach conversation, we don't know, we don't really realize that's what we're going for. So we get trapped in awkward small talk because we're like, how do I get there?

• 1:01:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What do you do?

• 1:01:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Where are you from? And so, yes, but.

• 1:01:13Lewis Howes?

  And people may not be ready to answer those questions or like.

• 1:01:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We go to craft.

• 1:01:17Lewis Howes?

  Help you.

• 1:01:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 1:01:18Lewis Howes?

  Navigate what to do because they're not an expert or I get it.

• 1:01:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. But I do want to say, but yes, we are, if we could enter every conversation with the intention of truly seeing, truly seeking to understand and being honest and authentic enough to be understood, we all win.

• 1:01:36Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:01:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But there is something called vulnerability regret.

• 1:01:40Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it can happen where you share something vulnerable, but it's not actually safe.

• 1:01:47Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, you're like a vulnerability hangover.

• 1:01:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly.

• 1:01:51Lewis Howes?

  It's like, oh, what did I just do?

• 1:01:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What?

• 1:01:52Lewis Howes?

  What did I say? What did I reveal?

• 1:01:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 1:01:55Lewis Howes?

  I don't feel safe.

• 1:01:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Why did I say, oh, oh, my gosh, I was met with toxic positivity. I was dismissed. Someone tried to convince me I'm not who I am.

• 1:02:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so I, I share that because we also need to be protective. There's a very fine line between being courageous.

• 1:02:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:02:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, like going and asking the questions and, and breaking scripts, but also making sure that we are protecting our core self and our core values. And so I would say like, there's no rush.

• 1:02:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I see what you're saying.

• 1:02:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, like, yes, I want to approach every conversation that way, but we also need to like.

• 1:02:25Lewis Howes?

  Time and a place.

• 1:02:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Time and a place. And there are some days, especially at work, like the, the biggest myth that I am always talking to leaders about is that conversation takes away from productivity. Conversation takes away from work.

• 1:02:37Lewis Howes?

  No, but it creates connection.

• 1:02:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It creates connection and connection, connected collaborative, connected people work better. They work faster.

• 1:02:42Lewis Howes?

  Let's go.

• 1:02:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But there are days where you have to get it done. There ain't no time for tell me something good.

• 1:02:47Lewis Howes?

  No, no, no.

• 1:02:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There ain't no time for the discussion of how and why. So we also have to know as dynamic nuanced human beings, listen, I want to hear all about how that went last weekend. We got to get it done today. We are in go zone.

• 1:02:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And like, we understand that too. We understand both.

• 1:03:01Lewis Howes?

  Something you talk about as well in the book, Conversation, how to be instantly likable in any interaction. I want everyone to get the book.

• 1:03:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, thank you. Kind.

• 1:03:09Lewis Howes?

  This is the type of.

• 1:03:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Louis is like endlessly, endlessly supportive.

• 1:03:12Lewis Howes?

  You know, well, this is the type of conversations I love having because I'm just fascinated by human behavior and human beings in general, because this is what I like to do. One of the scariest things is going to be how you can communicate with another person in real time or in person or face time.

• 1:03:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Lewis Howes?

  Yes, yeah. Because we're going to be like you talk about, we're going to be just using AI or social media for a majority of our conversations rather than learning how to do this. This is one of the scariest things in the world in my mind.

• 1:03:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It is.

• 1:03:37Lewis Howes?

  Sitting across from another human being.

• 1:03:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:03:39Lewis Howes?

  And speaking to them.

• 1:03:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And being willing to be awkward.

• 1:03:41Lewis Howes?

  It's one of the scariest things.

• 1:03:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It is so scary.

• 1:03:43Lewis Howes?

  It was my whole childhood, probably yours too, right? It's probably why we got into our line of work is to heal our own traumas from being awkward in front of people or being not liked or seen, right?

• 1:03:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Lewis Howes?

  It's why I went to public speaking class. It's why I put myself in social experiments over and over again to fail and embarrass myself so that I could overcome the feeling of humiliation. And it's why you do what you do to study it, right?

• 1:04:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it's being willing to learn through friction.

• 1:04:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:04:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Awkward conversation, bad conversation is like, it's like sticky. There's a lot of friction there. Like I ask you a question, you answer with one word. You ask me a question, I, I don't know the answer. Like, we have to learn that way. But the problem is, I think this is the last generation of humans that will learn to talk to each other by talking to each other.

• 1:04:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:04:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think that more and more, we have to apologize. What do we do? We go to AI and ask, how do I apologize? We have to write a, a goodbye letter. We have AI write it for us. We want to ask someone out, we practice with AI.

• 1:04:41Lewis Howes?

  Gosh.

• 1:04:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so I.

• 1:04:43Lewis Howes?

  So true.

• 1:04:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Lewis Howes?

  AI is like the new calculator.

• 1:04:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Lewis Howes?

  You know, I, I.

• 1:04:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, we're no longer be able to do addition in our brain.

• 1:04:52Lewis Howes?

  It's true.

• 1:04:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's true.

• 1:04:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. You know, I stopped, you know, I, I struggled in math. I struggled in every subject, but math was one where I was like.

• 1:04:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Me too.

• 1:05:00Lewis Howes?

  Once I got to, what was it, like fractions? Something in my brain like just broke and I didn't understand it.

• 1:05:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And you want to homeschool? No.

• 1:05:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, right. No, I'm not going to be the one teaching them. I'm going to teach them life skills, not like.

• 1:05:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, I was just teaching you. But they bring home homework. Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:15Lewis Howes?

  I know, right? Yeah. But fractions, like something broke my brain where I was like, I don't get this. I'm working really hard to try to understand this. I'm not, and I'm not going to get it. That was the age and the belief that I built this around, right? No matter how much I studied, it was like, I can't break through. And so I just never learned math after like third grade.

• 1:05:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, you're like fractions too hard, done.

• 1:05:34Lewis Howes?

  I'm just going to use a calculator, right? And it's kind of like, AI is like a calculator for.

• 1:05:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hard math, hard conversation.

• 1:05:39Lewis Howes?

  Conversations, for communication, for human dynamics.

• 1:05:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yep, yeah. The moment it gets hard, we go to AI.

• 1:05:44Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy, right?

• 1:05:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The moment it gets, like I, one of my friends is single, she's dating and she said to me.

• 1:05:49Lewis Howes?

  Ask AI, right?

• 1:05:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  She said to me, all of a sudden, the text, as I started getting deeper in their texting, his texts started to become very clearly AI.

• 1:05:58Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:05:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  She's like, we could do the banter like the back and forth in the beginning, but now she's like, I know he's using AI to reply to me.

• 1:06:04Lewis Howes?

  Gosh, isn't that crazy? You could have a whole AI like analysis of just saying, let me, you could almost connect it to your phone and just say, reply for me.

• 1:06:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's what he was doing.

• 1:06:13Lewis Howes?

  Instead of copy and paste, it's more like, just do it for me. And here's the result that I want. Here's the outcome.

• 1:06:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I want her to think that I'm funny and smart.

• 1:06:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:06:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And, and so we're not even learning it. There's no friction to practice it. Like we learn conversation through a little bit of friction, right? Like some of these things that you're going to try and it's going to go great. And some of them you're going to try and you're going to be like, ooh, that doesn't go so great. But that's how we learn.

• 1:06:34Lewis Howes?

  Gosh.

• 1:06:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, like confidence is not the absence of awkwardness. Confidence is feeling a little awkward and doing it anyway.

• 1:06:39Lewis Howes?

  Amen.

• 1:06:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? So in really good conversation, if we're sending all of our hard math, all of our hard conversations via the AI filter.

• 1:06:46Lewis Howes?

  Algebra.

• 1:06:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. Then we get in person and someone says something to our face and we're like, how do I sound assertive?

• 1:06:51Lewis Howes?

  Am I a robot?

• 1:06:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  How do I sound smart? No, we're like, huh, huh.

• 1:06:55Lewis Howes?

  No confidence. It's like, let me check.

• 1:06:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I think like this is a real.

• 1:06:59Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 1:07:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're, we're up against new forces, I would say. Like we can do it, but we're up against a very new conversational challenge and it's going to happen in every area of our life. Like, for example, it's going to happen in dating where you're not sure, am I talking to the person or am I not? Where you're practicing via AI and then you get in person, you realize you haven't had enough friction and then you're not yourself. Like, right, the friction comes from finding out who you are, like being like, oh, I'm uncomfortable with that. Um, I don't like that question or I'm going to be assertive. Like that's where you find out your boundaries, your lines. So that's going to start to be harder. You also have work conversations where you say to someone, hey, send me a strategy report. And it's really easy to ask AI to do the strategy report.

• 1:07:36Lewis Howes?

  Here it is.

• 1:07:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then you wonder.

• 1:07:38Lewis Howes?

  Did they actually strategize? Yeah. Gosh.

• 1:07:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then you need to write a reply back about, is it a strategy report? But you have AI write it?

• 1:07:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Do you know what I, so we're.

• 1:07:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're, it's all doable. We can, we can do it, but it's going to take like going to the gym. Like we're going to have to do some social reps. We're going to have to think of our conversation, our connection like a longevity hack.

• 1:07:58Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:07:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? We often think about our self-care routine and getting to the gym and going in the sauna and our skincare routine. We need to do the same thing for our social reps. Like how many social reps are you putting in? How many conversational reps are you putting in? Have you flexed to level three today? Are you getting to level two with your people? Make a list of the 10 people you interact with most and place them on the three levels. Are they all level one? You've got some flexing to do.

• 1:08:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:08:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? So we have to, I, I think about like going to the gym and I, and it makes us healthier. It makes us happier.

• 1:08:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:08:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It is a longevity hack, hack. Like the best thing we can do for our, our social wellness and our mental wellness is to have deep connective friendships and relationships to actually like the people we work with as much as we can, to actually meet with a friend. And this happened to me, I, I, I speak to myself too here, where I'd go to dinners and we weren't talking about anything. You know, you'd go to dinner and be like, and you, you spend an hour and a half and you're like, I just want to go watch Netflix.

• 1:08:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, I just want to go home. And you wonder, I had this where I was like, I am talking a lot and I don't feel connected. And so this is a thing that we're going to have to work at. I think it's so worth it, but I think it's going to be work.

• 1:09:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

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• 1:09:48Lewis Howes?

  This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. World Mental Health Day matters because it gets people talking about something that can be easy to push aside. But your mental health doesn't only matter one day a year. It matters on the random Tuesday when work feels heavy, when a relationship is weighing on you, or when it just doesn't feel like you're being yourself. For some people, therapy can be one way to support their mental well-being, and it doesn't have to be about some huge life decision. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp is one of the leading online therapy platforms, serving millions of people globally. Their therapists have at least three years and 1,000 hours of hands-on experience,

• 1:10:30Lewis Howes?

  with flexible ways to connect that can fit different schedules. Your mental health doesn't need a special occasion or anyone else's permission to matter. BetterHelp can connect you with a therapist who gets you, so you can make space for what matters to you. Visit betterhelp.com/greatness to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com slash greatness. Now, I'm curious about, you know, your whole premise of your book is how to be instantly likable in any interaction. And a lot of people think about likability as having like charisma or magnetic energy. Do you have to be charismatic or magnetic in order to be likable?

• 1:11:12Lewis Howes?

  And also, are you born with charisma, or is charisma a skill that you can develop?

• 1:11:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, well, the good news is charisma is absolutely a skill we can develop. Yes, there are people who are born charismatic, but it's a skill we can develop. And the funny thing is, the reason why your question is, you don't get mad at me.

• 1:11:29Lewis Howes?

  It's a bad question.

• 1:11:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, no, don't get mad at me. We changed the subtitle.

• 1:11:34Lewis Howes?

  You changed it? Oh, man, just the galley. Okay.

• 1:11:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is, but like, it's a good, it's really worthwhile talking about, because...

• 1:11:40Lewis Howes?

  What's the new subtitle? But I want to hear the answer to this, but also what is...

• 1:11:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's why I'm like, let's dig in, because this is a whole thing. You know how subtitles are a thing. So the new subtitle is how to connect with anyone and how to make every interaction count. Why? Because I was worried about this subtitle, because it assumes that you have to be likable in an interaction, and sometimes that's not the goal.

• 1:12:04Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:12:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I think, like, to your question, that likability is important, and I have a whole chapter about five likable phrases, and we talk about telling more. Yes, but it's not the only goal. The goal is to actually make every interaction count. That's the actual goal. The actual goal is to connect.

• 1:12:22Lewis Howes?

  But if you're unlikable, does it count?

• 1:12:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But if you're connecting, is it good?

• 1:12:30Lewis Howes?

  But then you have to be likable if you're connecting.

• 1:12:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Do you? I don't know. I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's the one...

• 1:12:34Lewis Howes?

  Well, I guess there's levels of connection.

• 1:12:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 1:12:37Lewis Howes?

  If you're at a F level, you're kind of connected, but not really. There's a depth of connection, right?

• 1:12:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But at least you are talking deeply and maybe feeling understood or having them feel understood. Like, for example, you could get to level three, learn someone's self-narrative and not like it.

• 1:12:52Lewis Howes?

  True.

• 1:12:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You could be with, let's just say, a coworker that you don't particularly like. You could be with a coworker and not like them, not that that ever happens.

• 1:13:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You don't like them, but you do need to understand them, and you do want to make interactions with them count, and you do want to better predict their behavior.

• 1:13:10Lewis Howes?

  Yes, true.

• 1:13:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So if you can still get to level three with them, even though you're not like, yay, we really like each other, and so I took it away.

• 1:13:17Lewis Howes?

  That makes sense.

• 1:13:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So the subtitle is different.

• 1:13:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, maybe it's not like love someone, but it's more of like, do you maybe appreciate but respect their ability to communicate?

• 1:13:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:13:25Lewis Howes?

  Even if you don't like their preferences.

• 1:13:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or you're willing to put in the work, right? Like, if you're willing to put in the work to be like, where are we? Right? Like, and this happens a lot with, with, you know, there's two types of narratives. There's actually five archetypes. There's two narratives, a contamination narrative and a redemptive narrative. A redemption narrative is someone who feels that no matter what they do, through their hard work and their grit and their resilience, they'll overcome.

• 1:13:45Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:13:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Contamination narrative, you know, right? It's someone who, no matter what they do, life is always throwing them bad circumstances. They're unlucky, they can't do anything to get out of it. Those folks can be very unlikable. They also don't like themselves, right? So likability actually is less important than them feeling understood, and for you to ask, when did that start?

• 1:14:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  When did that start that you thought that the world was against you?

• 1:14:11Lewis Howes?

  And how is that supporting you?

• 1:14:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And how is that...

• 1:14:13Lewis Howes?

  How is it supporting your dreams?

• 1:14:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And do you want it to keep supporting you?

• 1:14:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't have to necessarily like that about you or like you for that, but I think that...

• 1:14:22Lewis Howes?

  Huh.

• 1:14:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I love likability, and look, I like, I do talk about it in level one, especially because level one, it's great. If you like someone, wow, it's great. It's like lubricant, right? If you like something, someone, everything's smoother. You laugh easier. So I love likability, but it's not the, it's not the subtitle, because it's not the only goal.

• 1:14:37Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha. Okay, let's talk about charisma for a second, then.

• 1:14:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:41Lewis Howes?

  Does, does a person have to develop a skill of charisma in order to be more likable and create better connection, as long as it's authentic? Because charisma can also come off as like, ah, it's like they're fake, or they're like putting on a performance, or they're showy, or they're all about themselves.

• 1:14:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. If you define charisma in a research-backed way, I define charisma as a perfect blend of warmth and competence.

• 1:15:08Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:15:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That if someone shows up and they are open, trustworthy, good-intentioned, warm, but also competent, productive, effective, can get it done, that is essential for someone to get along with you, work with you. That way, you're answering the two basic questions about human beings. Can I trust you and can I rely on you? Right? If you can answer those two questions, then that person is going to be charismatic. So if you define charisma in that way, if you are authentically warm and authentically competent, you cannot fake competence for very long. You can do it for a little bit, right? Anyone can fake sounding smart, but not for very long. You can fake warmth for a little bit, but not for very long. So if you have authentic warmth and competence, it's actually a signaling issue. Like, the research gave me the chills when I read this research,

• 1:15:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  because you can be the warmest, most competent person in the room, but if you are not signaling that warmth and competence, people do not believe it.

• 1:16:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow, so you have to signal warmth and competence.

• 1:16:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  At the same time.

• 1:16:06Lewis Howes?

  Otherwise, people won't believe it.

• 1:16:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it.

• 1:16:09Lewis Howes?

  How do you signal it?

• 1:16:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so charisma, really charismatic people, they're just signaling more.

• 1:16:15Lewis Howes?

  They're good at signaling.

• 1:16:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:16:16Lewis Howes?

  So it's more of like learning the game of signaling.

• 1:16:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's really...

• 1:16:19Lewis Howes?

  Rather than just being yourself, which just kind of feels a little inauthentic, right?

• 1:16:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But like, don't you know that person who is super, super smart and super trustworthy, but no one believes them? Because they don't show it?

• 1:16:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, because they don't have like the courage to like, put yourself out there, like, hey, you're amazing, like...

• 1:16:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's really about courage.

• 1:16:35Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:16:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's less, yes, authenticity, but it's actually about courage. It's like, most of my students, most of my students are super smart, super warm, but they undersignal.

• 1:16:44Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:16:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They're the danger zone. I call it the danger zone. The danger zone is all my really smart, high-achieving students who just, they just aren't signaling their smarts and their warmth, and so they hold back, and they're underestimated, and they're overlooked.

• 1:16:56Lewis Howes?

  I, it's, it's the starving artist, in my mind, who's like, in their, in their basement or whatever, just like masters at their craft.

• 1:17:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So good.

• 1:17:05Lewis Howes?

  So talented, but they're like, but I'm waiting for someone to discover me. I'm not going to put myself out there and like...

• 1:17:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because they don't have the courage.

• 1:17:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So it's starving artists, and the other big one, the other big one right now, so it's starving artists and brilliant entrepreneurs.

• 1:17:17Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 1:17:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I have so many students who are like the tinkerers, the entrepreneurs, they have this great side hustle, great idea, and they have the best business.

• 1:17:23Lewis Howes?

  Put it out there?

• 1:17:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But they're afraid to talk about it.

• 1:17:25Lewis Howes?

  Why? Because they're afraid to fail, afraid to be criticized, afraid to be judged?

• 1:17:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, it feels uncomfortable to clearly signal warmth and competence if you don't have a lot of belief in yourself. So entrepreneurs, they'll have a belief in their idea, but not themselves. And that kills me, because I'm like, you, I watch Shark Tank, right? I love Shark Tank, because you see some entrepreneurs, they believe in their ideas and they believe in themselves. Their pitches go great.

• 1:17:50Lewis Howes?

  And they get invested.

• 1:17:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, because we like people who believe in themselves. We like people who believe in their own warmth and competence. So these starving artists or brilliant entrepreneurs, they are so, they know their numbers, they have their pitch deck, they have this great business idea, but they don't believe in themselves. And so they get in the room, they get to investors, they go to networking events, and they can't get buy-in, because they're just undersignaling, and I hate this, but I hate this. But you can have the best idea in the world, if you don't know how to show it or share it, it will not get heard.

• 1:18:23Lewis Howes?

  So what is the best way to signal that you have competence and confidence, I guess?

• 1:18:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Well, it's enough confidence to show your warmth and competence.

• 1:18:31Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:18:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If we're going to play with the words.

• 1:18:33Lewis Howes?

  Competence and confidence.

• 1:18:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Confidence and warmth.

• 1:18:35Lewis Howes?

  So what are the, what are the signals when you're in person or in a group or on a stage or in a board meeting or around colleagues or any of these things? Without bragging about yourself, like, oh, I can do this and I can do that.

• 1:18:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's the worst, right? Like, that's the worst. Okay, so the first thing is to understand that there are different channels that we use to communicate. There are four different channels. It's actually my, my last book, Cues. So verbal, the words you use. Nonverbal, your body language, your gestures, your facial expressions. Vocal, how I say my words, my pace, my volume, my cadence, and my ornaments. The colors I wear, the ornaments, what I'm holding in my profile picture, what's on your set. Those are all actually showing warmth and competence. Think about, if you pop on a video with someone and they have credentials behind them, competent.

• 1:19:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They have family pictures, warm. Both of those might be true. Right, right, right. Both of those might be true, but it's just signaling. You chose what you're gonna have behind you. Either your credentials or family photos, but both are true. That's why it's like, this is less about authenticity in the traditional sense and more about what do you want to signal? You have choice. All four of those channels, you have choice. And there are things-

• 1:19:39Lewis Howes?

  Kind of like your personal brand.

• 1:19:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's your charisma flavor. Exactly.

• 1:19:42Lewis Howes?

  How you present yourself.

• 1:19:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it. So you're, I believe you can kind of create a recipe for your brand. You can create a recipe for your charisma flavor. For example, look at Oprah and Steve Jobs. Both of those people are charismatic, but they signal totally differently. They have their own blend of cues. And this is really important because sometimes I'm like clipped on social media of like, always do blah. Or never do blah. Cause I know that they go crazy. But really, I want you to create your recipe. Right, like some cues will work for some people and some won't work for others. Like, for example, like this is a steeple. This is a high competence cue. So when we touch the tips of our fingers together, for anyone who's just listening, you touch the tips of your fingers together to make like a little steeple. This is rated, research wise, as the most competent gesture a leader can make.

• 1:20:28Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 1:20:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Rated, yes. As the most competent gesture a leader can make. It's kind of like a power pose for the hands. It makes you look sort of wise and bodied out. Now, don't drum, that's very evil. Right, like that's very- But that little difference- I'm going to take over the nuclear power plant. Right, so just like that, just even that is different, right? Like, so this poise versus like drumming. So you can choose to do a steeple to look competent, if you feel competent, if you want to. But some people are like, ugh.

• 1:20:57Lewis Howes?

  It feels weird.

• 1:20:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It feels weird. Great.

• 1:20:59Lewis Howes?

  It's like a power move or something.

• 1:21:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Great. So that's why like Kevin O'Leary on Shark Tank-

• 1:21:03Lewis Howes?

  He's always doing this.

• 1:21:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He's always doing it. And that is natural to him.

• 1:21:06Lewis Howes?

  And he kind of taps like this.

• 1:21:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, he tap, he's thinking, and you know when he's tapping, he's really processing the math? That is on brand for him. He is thinking about something highly competent and he is signaling it. We love it, right? Like, it is that clarity of signal and that alignment with his brand fits. I would never want you to do the steeple if you're like, feel silly. I feel silly. Right, then I'm gonna give you other competent ideas, other competent cues. There are ninety-seven cues to choose from. So you can choose, pick and choose. So another competent one, if you don't like the steeple-

• 1:21:35Lewis Howes?

  What a three that you do a lot.

• 1:21:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so my favorite, my favorite three, in my recipe, right? This is not gonna work for everyone, but in my recipe is I'm working pretty hard to stay in the lowest end of my natural tone.

• 1:21:45Lewis Howes?

  Not up high.

• 1:21:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So like when I'm talking to my girls or my kids, I'm usually talking up here. And if I'm talking up here for the whole interview, you'd be like, what is she doing? She sounds like really crazy. You know? But that's still, those are both natural to me, but I like using the lower end of my voice, like the basement of my voice. It helps me feel more grounded. I know when I am going a little higher, I need to take a deep breath. I'm gonna lower my shoulders. So it's, it's my own internal signal, but I also know it's clearly signaling to you that I feel good. So a lower tone is one of my favorite cues. That's also could be called a power tone. I also would recommend at the end of your sentence, hitting it at the end. So not going up, but going down. So instead of, my name is Vanessa.

• 1:22:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Instead, my name's Vanessa. Right, that is going to give a totally different vocal first impression.

• 1:22:38Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:22:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So going down at the end of your sentences, thinking about using the lowest tone of your voice, that's one of my favorite cues. I do use a steeple on the cover of cues, so I do, I do like that cue occasionally, but I know it can run people the wrong way. And then, and that was so hard to pick favorite cues. The other one that I really like would be a lower lid flex. So a lower lid flex is when I harden my lower lids. Universally, human beings do this when they're trying to see better or hear better or scrutinize or listen. It is a cue of intensity. I'm a pretty intense person. I don't know. Like, when you're talking to me, right, like, I'm like with you. So I kind of, it fits my brand. And so if I'm gonna do a little lower lid flex, it shows you like, I am so deeply listening to you that I wanna like see everything.

• 1:23:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's what, that works for me, not everyone.

• 1:23:23Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful. So what is the new subtitle of the book?

• 1:23:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, the new subtitle, how to connect with anyone and make every interaction count.

• 1:23:31Lewis Howes?

  It's beautiful.

• 1:23:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm like really happy that you brought up the likability thing, cause I haven't been able to talk about why and that nuance. And I, I think that really that what we need to be doing right now is connecting.

• 1:23:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's more than, more important than being likable.

• 1:23:45Lewis Howes?

  And it's, you know, my thing is having the courage to put yourself out there and knowing it's not gonna be perfect in every interaction, you know? And the more you do those social experiments with yourself, just the more human you're gonna be.

• 1:23:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Lewis Howes?

  And the more likable you're gonna be, and you're gonna make these conversations count.

• 1:24:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, wait, I have two challenges. If you wanna be brave, okay? Challenge number one, the safer one, but so good. Sit down with someone and invite them for a cornerstone conversation. A cornerstone conversation are these foundational conversations with people who matter to you. Could be a partner, could be a colleague, could be a best friend, could be a parent, could be a sibling.

• 1:24:21Lewis Howes?

  Do you tell them this is a cornerstone?

• 1:24:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You tell them, you send them this interview and say, Louis and Vanessa told me that we should have a cornerstone conversation and I love you so much, or I care about you so much, I picked you. Then I want you to do all the questions we talked about in this interview, or the nine power questions in here. I have three questions per level. You start with level one and you work your way up to level nine, but level three, right? The ninth one is the hardest, right? So you work your way up. That experience of going through those questions together is transformative. It will level up the relationship or not. Depending on who it is you're talking to. Okay, so like you wanna pick carefully. That's challenge number one, that's, that's interpersonal. My intrapersonal challenge, like my, just for your own growth, if you're willing, is to do a yap challenge.

• 1:25:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So a yap challenge is practicing the feeling of sharing your idea with authority, even if you're uncomfortable. I want you to very briefly prepare for something that you believe in, a piece of advice or a tip. I want you to turn on your camera, press record and film yourself for sixty seconds, talking about that idea. And then stop, don't edit it, post it.

• 1:25:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, one time.

• 1:25:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  One time.

• 1:25:27Lewis Howes?

  Don't take twenty takes.

• 1:25:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No re-records, no.

• 1:25:29Lewis Howes?

  Just go.

• 1:25:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because you'll feel what it feels like, it doesn't work in front of the mirror, it just doesn't work as well. To feel what it's like in your body, to feel uncomfortable and to do it and to push.

• 1:25:39Lewis Howes?

  You need stakes. Because if you just say, I'm gonna record this twenty times till I feel like it's ready. And that's tricky, because when you've never done it before, you're like, ah, I don't sound good.

• 1:25:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Whoa, I, oh my gosh, my voice wavers.

• 1:25:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh my gosh, I don't use any hand gestures.

• 1:25:52Lewis Howes?

  I'm like an idiot.

• 1:25:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh my gosh, but like, tell them it's for me, like, send it to me, that's fine. Like, if you have one piece of advice for me, your favorite conversational tip, send it to me just as practice. I think that we're flexing, we're flexing.

• 1:26:06Lewis Howes?

  This is powerful, Vanessa. I wanna, I want people to get the book, make sure you guys grab it, Conversation, uh, How to Make Every Conversation Count.

• 1:26:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There you go.

• 1:26:14Lewis Howes?

  And be likable, hopefully a lot of the-

• 1:26:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I also do, yeah.

• 1:26:17Lewis Howes?

  Cause likability is one of the, I think it's seven levels of influence by Robert Taldini. I think likability is one of them, liking is what it's called. So there is something to being likable as well.

• 1:26:29Lewis Howes?

  They can follow you anywhere online, V Van Edwards on social media, your YouTube, your Instagram, all these places. Your website is also-

• 1:26:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  ScienceOfPeople.com.

• 1:26:40Lewis Howes?

  ScienceOfPeople.com.

• 1:26:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I do a, a social strategy every Monday and an icebreaker. So you can use them in your team meetings or your conversations.

• 1:26:46Lewis Howes?

  You have an amazing newsletter, if you wanna understand all these things better too. They can get the book right now. And a couple of final questions for you. What is the question you, cause you're, we're not gonna say your true age, but you know, early, early forties, right? You said it.

• 1:27:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Forty-one.

• 1:27:03Lewis Howes?

  Okay, forty-one. What's the question your fifty-year-old self would love to ask you right now, that will support you in having the best decade of your forties? If your fifty-year-old was in front of you right now and said, Vanessa, here's one question I want you to think about. That's gonna change everything from your relationships to business, to kids growing up, to you, uh, becoming this, you know, empowered version of yourself. What's the question your fifty or fifty-one-year-old self would be asking you?

• 1:27:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Maybe just because you've been doing it one way, does it mean you can't do it another? Like, I think I've been in this business for so long. You know, I posted my first YouTube video in two thousand and seven. Right, I've been, I've been posting a tip a week for twenty years. Right?

• 1:27:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I've been doing it the same way. And I, I think it's time to maybe think of a different way. I think it's maybe time. And so the question is like, could you do it a different way? So I'm thinking about some different ways to do it.

• 1:28:07Lewis Howes?

  It's beautiful, it's beautiful. I've asked you this question before, but I'm gonna ask you from the, a new chapter. You know, I guess the last time you were on was four years ago.

• 1:28:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, four years ago.

• 1:28:16Lewis Howes?

  So imagine you get to live as long as you want.

• 1:28:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 1:28:18Lewis Howes?

  But it's the last day on earth. And you get to create and reimagine or reinvent your life in any way you want to from this moment till then.

• 1:28:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Lewis Howes?

  You get to live as long as you want, um, but for whatever reason, you gotta take all of your work with you. So this new book is gone, this conversation's gone, all your content gone, on the internet forever. But you get to leave behind three final lessons to the world, three truths for you. What would those three truths be?

• 1:28:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Funny, cause I've done this with you before, so it's, it's cool to see, you know, how my own work has changed.

• 1:28:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ask for stories, not facts. Like, if you, just that will get you so far. Connection is better than going to the gym.

• 1:28:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or just as good as going to the gym.

• 1:29:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And if you're lonely, you're not alone.

• 1:29:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, I think like, I've had moments of being lonely in very crowded places. You know, I was lonely in Austin, even though I was surrounded by friends. And that was like, hmm, what's going-

• 1:29:16Lewis Howes?

  Something's off, yeah. Interesting.

• 1:29:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And if anyone's like that, I would just say like, you're not alone and it, it's not a prescription, like it's, it's a state, it can be fixed.

• 1:29:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. Bottom question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:29:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, like, do I stick with my original answer? Always questioning. Yourself, others, always questioning, always learning.

• 1:29:41Lewis Howes?

  Vanessa, thanks for being, appreciate it.

• 1:29:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thanks for having me again.

• 1:29:44Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now, because we are on a mission to impact a hundred million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

• 1:30:24Lewis Howes?

  And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

• 1:31:09Lewis Howes?

  It's time to level up your education and Columbia Southern University makes it easy. Earn an accredited degree one hundred percent online with twenty-four seven course access, zero dollar textbooks and monthly start dates. So you can truly earn your degree on your schedule. Plus, you can compare their costs to more than one thousand five hundred online degree programs. It's free and only takes a few seconds. Visit ColumbiaSouthern.edu/schoolofgreatness to learn more.

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