Why Grit Isn’t Enough to Get What You Want | Angela Duckworth

Psychologist Angela Duckworth, former McKinsey Consulting analyst and Duckworth Lab founder, is author of Grit, which has sold over 5 million copies, and Situated: Find the People and Places that Bring Out Your Best. The episode references The Person and the Situation, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, the fundamental attribution error research of Dick Nisbett and Lee Ross, and Bob Rosenthal's Pygmalion effect study.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:46Speaker 01

  Effort isn't enough, grit's not enough. If you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to really like frustration and burnout.

• 1:02Lewis Howes?

  A psychologist, a professor, and a bestselling author. It's sold over 5 million copies of her book called Grit, the one and only Dr. Angela Duckworth.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  If you are trying, and then you're trying harder, and then you're trying harder still, and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, I think that is the time you should stop, ask yourself, is it the situation? Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing in try harder, but that, I think, is a signal. And I think I missed that signal.

• 1:39Lewis Howes?

  When does someone know that they should change their environment?

• 1:42Speaker 01

  There's this research that I didn't do, but I think is like elemental to everything that I say.

• 1:51Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious to ask you first, if you could have all the grit in the world, but not have proximity to the right environment, do you believe we could still accomplish our big goals and dreams?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  I don't. I think the answer to that is, is no. Grit is great. I haven't given up on grit. In fact, I think the final common path to greatness is always going to be a path of consistent effort. But effort isn't enough, grit's not enough. I think if you don't have, if you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, even something as mundane as like the physical environment that you need. I mean, if you're a swimmer, like, how long is the pool, right? Like, and how heated is the pool? These seemingly trivial, sometimes, I guess, like, things that are outside of you, I think they make all the difference.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to really like frustration and burnout.

• 2:51Lewis Howes?

  When does someone know that they should change their environment?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  I don't think we know as soon as is optimal, to be honest. You know, there's, there's this research that I didn't do, but I think is like elemental to everything that I say in this book. I, I want to credit Dick Nisbett and Lee Ross, these two psychologists, who studied what's called the fundamental attribution error. And in particular, this guy, Lee Ross, had a personal experience that led him to discover that when we think of ourselves and others, we often ignore the situation. So you asked this question, like, when do we know it's time to change our situation? I'll tell you about what he found, which is that we are so oblivious to our situation that, you know, it can kind of, you know, be like the water of a fish.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  It's like, I think you should be, yeah, I think you should be swimming over here, but like, you're so habituated to it, you're.

• 3:45Lewis Howes?

  You're so used to it.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  You're so used to it that you're blind to it. His personal experience was, he's getting his PhD, and he's at a round table. And of course, he knows his research well, like, it's all he's been doing. But the, you know, inquisitors, right, these professors who are like basically there, like, asking him like incredibly random and like, sort of like abstruse questions, like, what was the wavelength of light used in this experiment? And, you know, honestly, instead of feeling smart, he felt stupid. And instead of feeling like an expert, he felt like a total rookie. And he passed, right? But that wasn't the end of the story. So then he becomes a professor at Stanford, and now he's on the, literally on the other side of the table, right? So now there's a PhD student, and they're defending their thesis,

• 4:31Speaker 01

  and he's the one, like, asking all the clever questions. And, you know, you can go through anything and be like, on page 168, you say, like, what did you mean by that? And suddenly, he's like.

• 4:40Lewis Howes?

  They're like, I don't know.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Right, the students like, you know.

• 4:43Lewis Howes?

  They felt stupid, yeah, yeah.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, they're, they're falling apart. And yeah, the student felt stupid, and then he felt smart. And I think from that personal experience, and then like a whole lifetime of research, he found that, you know, so often we'll be like, oh, this person doesn't know anything. I don't know anything. Oh, this person knows a lot. I know a lot. We think it's the person, it's really the situation. So he later wrote a book called The Person and the Situation, was not a bestseller. It dramatically influenced the work of people like Malcolm Gladwell, Michael Lewis. It's an academic book, and the book says, the situation is incredibly powerful, but like gravity, it's invisible and ignorable.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  And so I think your question is a great place to start, which is like, how do you know? And I think oftentimes, like, not soon enough, like, not soon enough. Like, maybe I should have, maybe I should be like on a different team, maybe, maybe a different coach, like, maybe a different zip code, right? Like, maybe my kitchen isn't set up the way my kitchen should set up, be set up. Maybe my office isn't set up the way, maybe my nightstand isn't set. Like, we are ignoring a situation that I think we shouldn't ignore.

• 5:54Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting you're saying this because I had a, a guy who just graduated, who came to my office yesterday to ask me some questions from one of the schools that I went to in college. And he was asking me, like, if you could go back to my age, 22, and if there's anything you would change, is there anything? And I'm like, well, you know, everything happens for a reason. But I'm like, listen, I wish I would have married the right person sooner. I wish I would have been, because I was in multiple long-term relationships.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:20Lewis Howes?

  And it took a lot of energy being with the wrong people. And I don't make, I don't, I don't put any blame on the women that I was with and dating. Like, it's not their fault.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:30Lewis Howes?

  I chose to be with them. I chose to stay with them longer than I knew I should have.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:35Lewis Howes?

  I go, the only thing is, like, you're going to be tempted. You're a good-looking guy, you're fit, you're this, you've got passion, you're smart, you've already got a great, like, a job opportunity. And like, just make sure you date the right girl. And date with the intention to marry. Don't just fool around because it might be fun in the moment, but it might drain your energy from actually going after what you want. So I'm curious, how, in your research or in your perspective, if you have the right proximity and the right situation and the right environment and grit, but you're with the wrong person intimately, how much does that impact your ability to succeed or fail?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  You know, I'm married.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  I wouldn't be in this chair right now if I weren't married to Jason Duckworth.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  And it's not because, and it's not, it doesn't have anything to do with grit, right? So like, I will tell you, and I also wish I had married him earlier, but.

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  How long you been married?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  I've been married, I don't know, I always lose track, definitely over 25 years.

• 7:34Lewis Howes?

  Okay, that's fun, yeah.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Like, 25 plus, right? So, like, that's what, silver anniversary, I think, or like post-silver anniversary.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I did try, though, by the way, I've always dated according to your philosophy, which is like, are we not getting married?

• 7:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, like, next. I think the average amount of time that I dated a guy was like four weeks, and there were a lot of them. But I did meet Jason Duckworth. But let me, let me say that I think when you talk about your situation, like, yeah, it's like, you know, what's in your cup? It's like, you know, do you have food on your counter? It is also, and obviously, most importantly, I think, like, the person that you're with. I cannot tell you how, how, like, I think Angela Duckworth is great. Angela Duckworth and Jason Duckworth, like, like, so much greater.

• 8:25Lewis Howes?

  Really? So this wasn't all you?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  When I did finish this book, which was. A very long, hard road, which we could talk about or not, but I, it was like, I think I had never been so humbled as in the five-year journey of writing this book, you know, not just the most intellectually challenging work, like honestly, the most personally and emotionally challenging work. When it finally was done, I could only use we, not I. I was like, we have a book. Like, like, like now we're going to get published. One of the reasons, and you, you tell me, I'd love to hear more about your marriage. I, I feel like I no longer conceive of my journey in life as being like me trying to do things.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I really do think of like, you know, I have to write an op-ed with Jason.

• 9:16Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, at, like, he was not a psychologist, he's a real estate developer, by the way. Residential real estate.

• 9:23Lewis Howes?

  But he's your psychologist because you're married to you in a sense. Like, he understands you.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:28Lewis Howes?

  Psychologically, emotionally.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  He understands me, he, you know, he's my intellectual sparring partner. I think that the, the, the idea that like I am just myself and then like occasionally I get feedback doesn't do justice to like how important he is. And again, like going back to like you and your situation, I will go all eastern on you because I have Chinese descent. So I have a little bit of the right. Born in Philadelphia, but my parents came from China and they, they, my dad in particular would talk about how different it was to come from the east and the west. And so I will tell you what I think my father was saying to me when he said, like, when you are in the west, it's like you're an individual and you know, you have a resume and a career.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  And yes, you have relationships with a, you know, romantic partner, with friends, with society.

• 10:19Lewis Howes?

  But it's your dream.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  But it's your dream, you know, like you're the silhouette, you're the, he was like, in the east, speaking personally, he was like, that's not how we think of it, like you're part of a whole. You're part of a society, you know, your relationships are not like separate from you. So, so yeah, like, yeah, my husband, the real estate developer, I think in this, in the most profound way, I'm struggling to find the words for it, is so much part of, of anything that I could call success. And by the way, not just this book, like the last one, so I.

• 10:51Lewis Howes?

  That's what I mean, your whole career, like your success as a professor and all the awards you've achieved and the books and the sales, like everything.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Like everything.

• 10:59Lewis Howes?

  Would you be where you are without having the right marriage partner?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  I would not be where I am if I didn't have this, this marriage.

• 11:07Lewis Howes?

  But you had the talent, you had the smarts, the skills, the other relation, the network, you know, would you, like, why wouldn't you be where you are without the right intimate partner?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  I'm going to answer, and I also just want to add, I know a very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist who off the record said, I mean, he came to me and he was like, I always look for grit. And I said, great, so do I. I asked him, what else do you look for? He said, do you want to really know? I was like, I was like, he's like, off the record, I look for somebody who's in a very stable, strong. You call a romantic relationship, right? Like marriage would be the most common form of such a relationship. And I was like, oh, that is so interesting. So let me just say that I'm not alone in like believing that, you know, the two of you are like a unit, you know, like it's, it's not even possible to really conceive of. I mean, I will answer you, but I'd love to hear what, like what you would say to the same question.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  I, you know, do feel like at some point during the day when we like part ways, we have breakfast and then like I go off to work as a psychologist, you know, and I'm on conference calls, he's not on. And I like sit and stare at a blank page and he's not standing next to me. I mean, obviously I'm also independent. I don't, I don't, I don't think any of this like diminishes, like, oh, you know, I don't feel like I take credit. But, but everything I do, I think of us like trying to embark on this challenge. Like, I didn't know how to open this book, honestly. I was like, how do I explain to people the power of the situation? Cause the situation is so abstract. It's like, how do I explain to them that it's everything and everyone around them?

• 12:47Lewis Howes?

  It's your environment, it's your room, it's your, the mentors around you, the school.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  And maybe I could have called you, Louis, right? But you weren't around and I'm not married to you, right? So I'm like sitting there struggling and, and Jason said, why don't you write about our marriage? And I was like, okay.

• 13:03Lewis Howes?

  He just wanted you to brag about him, you know?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  He did ask actually just the other days, like, have you been telling people that?

• 13:08Lewis Howes?

  How amazing I am?

• 13:10Speaker 01

  In so many words, I was like, I was like, I don't know that I'm mentioning that enough. But it was such a generous act and the reason is that he didn't want me, or wasn't suggesting that I write about like all the good parts. He was suggesting that I write about a crisis that we had in our marriage. And this is like the most courageous act, something that we hadn't publicly talked about at all.

• 13:29Lewis Howes?

  What happened?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  And yeah, so I'll, I'll tell you the story. And again, I think like, it's just so indicative of like how we are doing this like in the deepest way together. So I met Jason Duckworth, I was in my twenties. I, you know, had this dating philosophy. It was like, we're not getting married next, not getting, but when I met him, I was like, let's do it. Like, let's go.

• 13:51Lewis Howes?

  Like first couple of days or first couple of weeks, you're like, hey?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  A couple of hours. I had a dream the first night. And I wrote down in my journal, so I have like written evidence that this is true, I'm not making this up. I had the dream that we were getting married. I was walking down the aisle and I couldn't see the room. And then he turned around and it was this guy I'd just met named Jason. And so I, I told him about it the second time I saw him and I think he thought it was.

• 14:18Lewis Howes?

  Crazy?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Crazy. Yeah. I guess that's a.

• 14:21Lewis Howes?

  You what, twenty-three, twenty-five?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I was twenty-six, I think. I think I had just turned twenty-six. I had just turned twenty-six. I was like twenty-six and two days. And so we had a head over heels romance. Like there were some ups and downs, but like, oh my God, I was in love. So that's not what I wrote about. I didn't write about like, oh, and then chapter or whatever, like it ended up being chapter five, not chapter one. But he wanted me to write about my marriage crisis. He thought it would be a great way to like explain the power of the situation. I will tell you what happened. Everything was going great. You know, he's like you and he's like me, like, like try to outwork us, right? It's like, you know, like.

• 14:58Lewis Howes?

  Let's go.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Right? Like, let's go. It's like, you know, maybe I don't have the highest IQ score in the room, like, you know, but like, watch me work, right? Like, so that is Jason Duckworth. And that is Angela Duckworth. And I, you know, and you've, you've shared with me that that's your personal story. So when we saw each other, it was like looking in the mirror. It was like, oh my God, let's go. And, and it was working, like trying harder was our life philosophy. And it worked until it didn't.

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  Until exhausted and burnout and overwhelmed, yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So let's see. So, and maybe there's a scenario where it could have worked forever, but I don't think that happens for those people. So we get married and he's starting his real estate career. And you know more about business than I do, despite my being a business school professor. So you'll know that, you know, I'm, I'm a professor, I'm on tenure track. He's a real estate developer, two thousand eight financial crisis. I, I know so little about like finance and economics that like, I, like I, I gave him the copy for this chapter. And he was like, I think you got the, sweetie, I think you got the date wrong for the financial crisis that like, you know, sent the United States and the rest of the world into like a global recession. It was like the worst housing market in, you know, recent American history.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  So here he is, like starting out as a very ambitious, I'll outwork you real estate developer in the worst time in history to be a real estate developer. What happened to our marriage in this time is, and this like, I'm glad I mentioned to you that I'm of Chinese heritage because it is relevant. So he's working harder and harder because the philosophy of somebody who's like, I will try harder and that is my superpower. I will work my way out of every problem, has an incredible vulnerability, which is like you go from sixty-hour work weeks.

• 16:45Lewis Howes?

  To eighty, to, yeah, yeah, to a hundred.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  A hundred, right? And I counted. So right, I know people are like, oh, you know, if you really added up, I'm like, oh yeah, trust me, I added them up. So he's working like crazy and, and honestly, like becoming incredibly unhappy, like miserable would not be the right, no, miserable would exactly the right adjective for it. I'm, you know, trying to be what my mother, who was raised in China, like raised me to be, which is the perfect wife, like.

• 17:14Lewis Howes?

  That's impossible.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  I know. Well, I had a lot of therapy since this all happened and now you also, but at the time, right? Like, you know, twenty-something Angela, head over heels in love and raised to be like a perfect wife. So I'm working harder. So I'm trying to get tenure, but also we had these two girls and like, you know, I need to serve them organic fruit. And like keep up my Pilates routine, but also I've got this husband. And when you are raised as I was raised, like Louis, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders at college graduation. And she with a tear in her eye said, I'm so proud of you, you're ready to be a wife. And so for me, my husband's unhappiness was my failure. So then I just worked harder. I was like, I'll dust bus, you know, at five in the morning.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  So I will make everything right and my husband will be happy. But then, so we were both just digging ourselves into, into like, I guess kind of a foxhole, because that's what it felt like. We were just like, you know, we're just like soldiers in a foxhole trying to make things work. And all the happiness, I mean, the joy, like I was so in love with Jason Duckworth when we met, but I couldn't even remember that at this point. And so the crisis that I write about is how. Each of us had spent our lives being gritty, try harder people. And we had to reckon with the reality that trying harder in a losing situation doesn't make you into a winner. It didn't work for us and we had to change the situation

• 18:42Speaker 01

  in fundamental ways to to rescue our marriage and to rescue our careers. I mean, to rescue ourselves. And so, yeah, I I belatedly in a way like came to understand that working harder in a losing situation is just a recipe for, you know, exhaustion, burnout and misery.

• 19:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Now, there's a couple of things I relate to there. One, you know, I was, I told you before that I was in multiple long term relationships, not married, but just in long term dating relationships, committed relationships. And there'd be seasons where I know like, oh, this was not, we're not supposed to continue. But for whatever in me, the athlete or the person that says, don't give up.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Don't want to quit.

• 19:26Lewis Howes?

  I was like, I'm gonna figure this out. We'll do whatever it takes. I'll do more. I'll change. We'll go to therapy, whatever it was. And I repeated that in like four or five different relationships.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:34Lewis Howes?

  And not most people, but I'd say some people, after five, 10 years of a marriage, until they get to that point, they would say, you know what, we've lost the love, we've lost this, like we've we've burned ourselves to the ground.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  We tried everything.

• 19:47Lewis Howes?

  Let's break up. Let's divorce. Let's break up, even if we have kids. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong for people to to make their decisions, but why did you feel like that? Ending the relationship and removing yourself from what was not the situation?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:01Lewis Howes?

  Was not the right thing to do at that time for you?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  So there's some subtlety here, right? Because it's like, okay, so I hear you saying is that like this had become an unsustainable situation, Angela. Like, why isn't breaking up like the right thing to do? And like you, I'm like, far be it from me to pass judgment on anyone's marriage or life because I don't know anything about it, but I can speak personally. And there is some nuance here because divorce was a way to change the situation, right? And I thought like I would be a happy, you know, single mom. And then, you know, he happier, right?

• 20:32Lewis Howes?

  So you thought about this, you thought about like, what would that look like if we were?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  I took him out for a walk and I was like, and out of the blue, I was, you know, like all in one moment. I was like, okay, no, you think everything is perfect. I've been crying my eyes out every night and I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. So it was not, uh,

• 20:49Lewis Howes?

  How did he take that?

• 20:50Speaker 01

  It was not a great night. You know, I wrote about this, but I won't, don't know that I did it justice. Like, I don't think there's anything more devastating. He's like a child of divorce, like I really don't think there is anything I could have said that was more wounding than that. I think it was terrifying. I mean, I think it was like every negative adjective you can think of. It was terrifying. It was like crushing. It was devastating. And and I won't lie, part of the reason why we're still married is grit. Because he was a little bit like, oh, no, I'm not done. Like, you know, like,

• 21:23Lewis Howes?

  What do you need from me?

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, like, you know, we'll do it. So there was a little bit of grit, but I will tell you, um, I'll tell you, you know, what happened and why it is that like getting situated, I guess, you know, there were other ways to do it, but I'm glad that we went the path we did. So there were calibrations to our situation as opposed to like a radical like change, you know, like just splitting up. So I was also raised not to have therapy. Like I was raised, I remember my father and my mother were, you know, I have siblings. And there was a moment in time in my childhood.

• 21:59Lewis Howes?

  No one talked about emotions or feelings or?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Like, like verboten. And there was a moment in time where like, I think the school, somebody reached out and was like, your family needs to go to therapy. And by that, I mean the family. And so I remember this one episode, you know, it's like a sepia colored photograph. It's a little fuzzy, but I remember being on this couch with my family and

• 22:21Lewis Howes?

  When you were a kid.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  With my, yeah, and my parents were there. And my dad like stormed out and said like, uh, you know, very like unrepeatable things about like the therapist. So like, I did not, I did not grow up thinking like, therapy is great. Like, therapy should be part of your situation. So at this marriage crisis, Jason, you know, said, whatever pleaded, said, like, therapy, like, you need therapy, I need therapy, and we need therapy.

• 22:50Lewis Howes?

  And how did you respond?

• 22:51Speaker 01

  I I was like incredibly resistant to the idea, you know, like also like when you've, when you feel like you've already gone to the place where you're like, oh, by the way, I thought through this. Like I've thrown it all out and like, there's no, there's no solution here.

• 23:03Lewis Howes?

  There's no coming back.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  There's no coming back, but maybe there was enough of a Chinese wife in me that was like, oh, but my husband wants me to go to therapy. So I'll still, like, we went. And that was a profound change in my situation. I think like you trying to figure out your problems alone is a different situation than you trying to figure it out with somebody whose whole job is to like help people like you and who has seen has like pattern recognition. So I, you know, found this therapist, her name is Dee, she's still my therapist. Jason found a therapist, we went through another.

• 23:32Lewis Howes?

  So you did it individually and then together?

• 23:34Speaker 01

  We did, like, we had the biggest therapy bills like in, well, maybe not in history, but there were three therapists for two of us in one marriage. And that wasn't a great ratio for me. And we were, you know, just, it was a huge amount of our annual income. Time, energy, you know, these like two little girls who are raising like, you know, grandparents, like taking shifts so that we can each go to therapy, that we could both go to therapy. I think that that was only one change, but like you in a marriage, trying to figure things out on your own by just trying harder is like a whole different world from like you together, like vulnerable enough to be like, I guess it's time for therapy. Like, I can't figure this out on my own. I can't talk about it with you, except for if there's this third person in the room.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Like it did, it wasn't, and it wasn't the only thing we did, but it was like part of the turning point, right? You know, asking for help, I think, is a big part of getting situated.

• 24:29Lewis Howes?

  It is.

• 24:33Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like you'd still be married and as successful as you are in your career if you didn't go through therapy with him at that season?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  I know that I wouldn't be as successful as I am because you know what? I've also found in my research, Lewis, people aren't gritty when they're not happy. So if you want to be gritty and successful, you have to be happy and

• 24:54Lewis Howes?

  But maybe getting a divorce and getting out of the situation, maybe you'd have felt a sense of freedom and peace. You know, it's like, oh, maybe I don't have anything, I'll have to go to therapy for a year and deal with stress and bills and like, oh, changing myself. Like, maybe it'd just been, I can be who I want and find someone else.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  So I have like nearly memorized The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost, you know, like, you know, two roads diverged in yellow wood. And there I, the weary traveler stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth, right? I haven't memorized the whole thing. That's the first stanza. And you get to the end, it's like, you know, basically the reason why that poem gets repeated all the time is like, who hasn't thought about like, but what if I hadn't stayed with you? Or like, what if I had got like, or what if I had stayed in Ireland or whatever it is, you know? You just have these like, what if I'd stayed in football? Like, you have these other roads and they're not taken. I don't know what the other roads are. I haven't taken them. I I'm trying not to swear, but I love this road and I so so love my husband.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Like, I I don't know, but I will say this, the thoughts that I had in my head, like, this is ruined. Like, it's no longer a fairy tale. Like, I can't make you happy, therefore I'm a failure as a wife. Like, we are not meant to be. Those thoughts are not true. And it was only by changing my situation that I could change my thoughts to, well, you are miserable and I am miserable. Facts. It doesn't have to be that way. It also doesn't mean that you're a congenitally miserable person or that I am congenitally unable to be a good wife. Like, there were so many assumptions that I had in my head that hadn't I changed my situation? That that it wouldn't have changed my thoughts, right?

• 26:31Speaker 01

  And I think one of the, one of the things I would really do, like, we've had a conversation before this where I said, I'm slightly uncomfortable, like, you know, being on book tour, like, you know, I don't. But there is something I feel incredibly passionate about. In psychology, and that is my job, right? I am not a real estate developer, I'm a psychologist. Like, in psychology, there is this very simple way of understanding human behavior that I learned about halfway through my career and I think is important to deliver to the world. And it gets back to like, well, how does this all fit together? There's just three boxes, if you want to draw them on a piece of paper. And the third box is like how you respond, how you feel, are you miserable? Are you happy? Are you confident?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Are you working 10 hours that day or two hours that day? What did you eat? What did you drink? Like, any behavior you can think of, any feeling you can think of is in box three.

• 27:23Lewis Howes?

  And that's how you respond to what happens?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  That's how you're responding, right?

• 27:26Lewis Howes?

  Your response.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  And people can be different, right? You're like, oh, you know, Ryan, you know, John, like Sally, like they stayed later and you know, Sue didn't like, okay, that's the response, right? Then what happens in box two? What box two are your thoughts? So one of the reasons why many therapists today will identify themselves as cognitive therapists, like cognitive therapists work on

• 27:48Lewis Howes?

  Thinking therapists?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Your thoughts, like, what are the thoughts that are making you underconfident? Like, you're feeling like an imposter? Let's think about the thoughts that go through your head together. And like, let's try to under, you know, you don't think this marriage is going to work. You feel whatever you feel like, it's the thoughts of cognitive therapy, like you go and a therapist helps you interrogate and challenge maybe maladaptive and inaccurate thoughts, right? So I think that's a lot of, that's a lot of growth. You talk about greatness, like, I think a lot of that is becoming aware of your self-talk and your thoughts. But I want to say, and I'm not saying that therapists are not saying this too, but I want to say that there's another box. It's like, what, okay, that's box two and box three. You know what box one is? Box one is your situation. Like, who are you with?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Like, are you with a therapist or you're not with a therapist? I mean, I also came clean to my friends who I had not really been sharing this with on the whole. There were also professional changes we make. We changed box one, we changed our situation. When you change your situation, you automatically change your thoughts. When you change your thoughts, you automatically change your behavior. So I feel Unapologetic and unequivocal that like people should understand that everything you do comes from what you think and everything you think is influenced by your situation.

• 29:07Lewis Howes?

  I believe that for sure. And this, you know, this guy, this younger guy who came yesterday to me.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  The one who asked you for advice?

• 29:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  I love this question, by the way. I already love this guy. I've never met him.

• 29:17Lewis Howes?

  Nice guy. I was telling him like, listen, you know, everything I went through, all the challenges, they've all taught me who I am today and this and that, you know? And I'm grateful for all the experiences, but I know that my energy was drained so many times and for so long in certain relationships, and I don't blame anyone else, I take full responsibility.

• 29:38Lewis Howes?

  And I wish I would have learned that skill on how to navigate those situations better sooner. Because now being married for, you know, and with Martha for the last five years, it has brought me so much greater energy in my life, more joy, that has allowed me to expand my energy in positive ways. I feel like better, right? It's given me more and more energy, given me more confidence, all these things and less stress.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:04Lewis Howes?

  And I think whenever I'm stressed, I make worse decisions in life and I, and I make, you know, and I don't respond, like you said in the third box as well.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Right. You're not your best self.

• 30:15Lewis Howes?

  Not your best self. You're like a six out of a 10 every day or like a four out of 10.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Are you like a different Lewis? Because like it's Lewis and Martha?

• 30:22Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And this is the interesting thing. You mentioned therapy because when I met Martha, I was so clear that I was not going to allow chemical emotions to cloud my thinking, to just act, oh, we're in love and this is amazing and it feels good and let's just not ask the deep questions and this, it feels good being around each other. So early on when we were dating, um, in the first couple of months, I was like, listen, we're having an amazing time and it seems like it feels, so many things are lining up. We're like, this is amazing, right? But I said, for whatever reason, I'm not willing to get into a committed relationship unless we start in therapy.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 31:03Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  At the beginning of your relationship?

• 31:06Lewis Howes?

  Beginning of the relationship, because every other relationship ended in therapy and it never worked out.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  You're like, wait, we have the tail and we're like, yeah.

• 31:14Lewis Howes?

  And I was like, I don't want to go over the next year of everything's going to be great. And then we move in in a year, a year and a half, or whatever it is. And then we start finding out things about each other that don't work. We're trying to go back to that feeling you had with uh, Jason, right?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:27Lewis Howes?

  In the beginning, you try to remember that fantasy of the beginning.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:30Lewis Howes?

  And you can't find it because you're stressed out, you're overwhelmed, you're hating each other, whatever it is. And I was like, I don't want to get to that point.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:36Lewis Howes?

  I want to know that we have shared values, shared vision and shared lifestyle in the beginning, and we're really honest with each other.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:44Lewis Howes?

  And maybe quickly we find out it doesn't work out.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:46Lewis Howes?

  But at least.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Which is great, right?

• 31:48Lewis Howes?

  I'd rather do that in three to six months than three to six years.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  God, I've never heard of this before. This is awesome.

• 31:54Lewis Howes?

  It was the best thing that we have ever done because right away she said, absolutely, let's do it, which I thought she was.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Also a good sign.

• 32:00Lewis Howes?

  Great sign.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Such a good sign. Yeah.

• 32:01Lewis Howes?

  And we were able to just navigate little misunderstandings, little potential disagreements that could have blown up into something bigger so quickly. And it wasn't always comfortable and there were some moments that were vulnerable and it was like, oh, this doesn't feel good, but we were able to work through it with a mentor, a third party.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:20Lewis Howes?

  That's all they do.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:21Lewis Howes?

  Instead of us figuring out when we're emotional. It was the greatest gift we gave ourselves and our relationship.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  To this, um.

• 32:29Lewis Howes?

  Probably about a year.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 32:31Lewis Howes?

  And the first year, and it, it was just like, we appreciated each other.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Genius.

• 32:35Lewis Howes?

  Cause I know we're in this together and we've done this work early and we're willing to keep figuring things out together when we need to. And it's been the most beautiful five year experience with someone ever.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:49Lewis Howes?

  And again, we've faced challenges, we have adversity we're going through and different stuff. Like we just had twin girls 10 months ago, challenges at hospital, all these different things are happening.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:59Lewis Howes?

  But the fact that we created a, almost a framework of connection, of vulnerability, of we're in this together in the beginning has created a better relationship now. Again, it doesn't guarantee we're going to have this perfect relationship forever. I'm just saying it's created a much more peace within us. And I just think it's a valuable thing to explore.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  So I have never met anybody who was like, oh, and then when we first started dating, I was like,

• 33:25Lewis Howes?

  But I went through so much pain Angela for 20 years of multiple relationships that were just heart wrenching for me. That didn't work out. That I was like, my ability to have grit and pursue and create was diminished because of one situation. Talk about in your book.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:43Lewis Howes?

  And the people that we surround ourselves with, the mentors, the friends, the coaches, the teachers.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:50Lewis Howes?

  Those are the environments, my, in my mind, that are more important than making sure your space is clean and you're in the right city and things like that. Yes, those are, yes, those.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  There are also elements.

• 34:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes, those environments are crucial. But if you are in an emotionally trapped environment with a coach, a mentor, a, a friend who's holding you hostage, who's gaslighting you, that you're pouring into and you feel like it is exhausting and it will suck the life out of you. So I feel like the people's situations that you're in.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Those are the most important.

• 34:24Lewis Howes?

  Are the most emotionally important and everything else as well, like stack everything you can, like you talk about in your book, but it's the people that hold you back. And so many people I've interviewed, they're like, make sure you choose the person you marry wisely.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Really? Has that come up as a theme?

• 34:39Lewis Howes?

  Because it impacts everything.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  It's not just venture capitalists?

• 34:41Lewis Howes?

  And I asked my, I asked my therapist this, who works with a lot of like, very financially successful kind of older men, right? Who are maybe in their like 50s, 60s and 70s, right?

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:52Lewis Howes?

  And she has a lot of like high profile clients and things like that. And I'm asking her, you know, after like a year and a half or a couple of years of doing this, and I was doing individual therapy and then hers, uh, with a couples therapy as well. When I did at this session at one point, she was like, so what do you want to talk about? I was like, man, I just feel so good. Like, and it was just happening every time. I was like, I don't really know anything to talk about.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:12Lewis Howes?

  But I go, how about this? Let's go into the future. Future Lewis, say, you know, everything works out for me, everything I want. And, you know, I accomplished everything and all my dreams come true and I'm healthy, I'm happy, all these things. What's going to be my biggest challenge in 10, 20 years? Based on the pattern recognition you see with all your clients?

• 35:31Speaker 01

  You asked her this question and you asked your therapist this question.

• 35:33Lewis Howes?

  And so what are, what are your clients coming to you and what is their biggest challenge? And you say, all these men who are very successful that come to her, they have fallen out of grace. They have allowed the temptations of the world to take them out of essentially their situation, their marriage. They've cheated with someone, they've, they've, they've strayed from the family, they've allowed their power, their money, their success.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Their ego, whatever.

• 36:00Lewis Howes?

  To get to them, whatever. And they made mistakes that ruined their, their life. So they ruined their situation. That's a good thing for something else may be more tempting. And then they spend years trying to regain respect from their kids or their, they, they try to eventually try to get back with the wife or whatever it might be, and it's too late. And so she was like, just be thinking of that because you're going to continue to grow, you're going to continue to succeed.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Right. And you're going to be more successful and the temptations are going to be greater.

• 36:26Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. So make sure you continue to have a bond where you're staying connected, you're staying present and you're working on things together.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:34Lewis Howes?

  And I think that is the thing where most people fail is like they, they get too successful and then they forget, I guess they forget about who they are, you know? So.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  So look, you know, you could be like, what's more important? Like the people, places or things? I'm like, and you want to argue people, right? Your relationships, like first and foremost, like it's right, because they're dragging you down or they're bringing you up. They're like helping you remember who you are or they're distracting you from like your, so I think I'll agree with you on that. Like I hadn't thought about like a rank ordering, but like if there's one.

• 37:08Lewis Howes?

  And imagine if your husband was not supportive of your career, was just kind of put doubt inside of you like.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  We worked in the same company. This is how we met. So we were both in graduate school, but we were about to go to McKinsey Consulting and he's a very proactive, like, like, you know, boy scout, class president type. And so he's like, I'm going to organize a dinner for all the people. We're going to go work at McKinsey Consulting in New York City. Um, I'm a little less like, yeah, straight and very, you know, that's why you need people to like organize your high school reunion. Like he, he, he's your guy. Um, so he organizes this dinner. And I meet him, yeah, fall in love. But the point is that we both went to McKinsey. And so we were, you know, like in the same track and, and I wasn't more successful than him. But I will say

• 37:51Lewis Howes?

  Just smarter than him.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Better looking, more charming. I, I wore shorter skirts. I will say that. I got that feedback at a performance of you. They're like, yeah, you know,

• 38:01Lewis Howes?

  He liked that, but now you

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Apparently not my engagement manager, but um, so, so here's the thing. Being a successful person, I think is hard. Being a successful woman in a marriage, I think can be hard for the husband.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  He frequently reminds me that he is the son of a, like his parents divorced. And so he was raised by both his father and his mother, but like not at the same time. And his mother Sharon is incredibly strong woman, very ambitious. She became a school superintendent. And he frequently reminds me that like, I should be more articulate about this, Lewis. But maybe is it because it's emotional or is it because it's hard to describe? The support that this man gives me, like, like, it's not that he tolerates my success. It's not that he is capable of like managing his own ego. And by the way, he is successful too, but I think he would point to my success. Like it is true love, right?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  When it's like, I assume that like the greater that Lewis is like, the more fulfilled Martha herself is like, it is that way on my, you know, on my side of this marriage. Like, I feel like, you know, like, like he might enjoy my success more than I do. I, I, I think that

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  Does he speak good words into you on a consistent basis around your project that you're working on?

• 39:20Speaker 01

  I think he is, A, a lot more, like he has ballast, you know? I mean, I get like very excited about things like, and he has a steadiness. There's like a, you know, there's like a salutiny to Jason Duckworth. I think he also is like ethically and morally, like, I don't know a lot of people. I don't know a lot of people who did what you did at the very beginning of your relationship. But I also can say, I don't know a lot of people like, like Jason is actively trying to be a better person. Like he actively prays to be a better person. Like he asked the question, like, is this the most ethical way? You know, like we're now in our 50s, like, is this the ethical way to be like using our money, using our time?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  So I have this person in my life who has like unconditional.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  It's not like in any marriage, like, you know, you're always happy with the other person. But like this unconditional commitment and unconditional support. But then also he's this like, you know, paragon of like integrity. Like I am not an immoral person, but I don't think on like, you know, like, I don't wake up in the morning and pray like, oh, I wonder if I could be a better person today. I mean, I try to be nice, but I think he's another level. And yeah, think about the, okay, so like, let's assume that Robert Frost is right. And our life is a road and we, and you know, sometimes we come to like a fork in the road and we could be with this person or that person. We could go to therapy or not go to therapy. We could stay in our job or not stay in our job. We could move or not move. We'll never know the road's not taken.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  There's not only one road not taken, there are uncountable roads not taken. I don't know what the roads are like with a different husband. I don't know what, what Angela Duckworth with another relationship would be. But this road that I'm on, I just look back at the road and I'm like, I could not have come this far. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't even, you know, I, I shared with you this, you know, my mom, by the way, I think would be okay with, you know, my relaying this anecdote because now she's 91 and I think she looks back and she was like, what was I talking about? When you were at college graduation, like

• 41:27Lewis Howes?

  Rubbing your shoulder

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Probably not the thing to say, like, you know, I'm glad you're happy, you know, you could be a wife. But I know this road that I've been on and I know that there's no way I would get this far. And one reason I know is that being raised in that, you know, be a good wife, be a good wife, you know, like make him happy. Like literally I was told at the beginning of my marriage, like my mom, again, not the 91 year old I have now. But back then she was like, when he comes home, play some soft music. And like, as if he were a lion or something. He's like, play some soft music and like, you know, rub his feet and like, you know, always have the food ready. So I don't think the ambitious Angela that I am today, who's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just go. Like I'm gonna be as great a psychologist I can be. I want to like, I want to do everything I can.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I don't think I would have given myself that permission if I hadn't gotten his support. So like, I don't know what the other roads are, but I'm so far down this road. And this road has taken me to places that I would never have dreamed of even like allowing myself to want to go. Right? Because yeah, like, and we're so happily married and you know, this ring. So this is the ring I, you know, I got engaged with this ring, right? Then we got married, we got this ring and I have a third ring. And after our marriage crisis, where a little bit of grit and a lot better situation, like, you know, here we are.

• 42:44Lewis Howes?

  And therapy.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  So much therapy, right? Well, I was part of a better situation, right?

• 42:48Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. You reimagined a new situation.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Exactly. And like many situational improvements, like it leads to an even better situation. Cause like now you're, you know, now you're making better decisions across the board. This third ring is like, you know, the ring to celebrate our second marriage. Like the sort of, you know, like we are not just gonna try harder individually or even together to like, we will when we're stuck. I mean, here's a way to know, like you asked me at the very beginning, like, do we know like on schedule? And I said, I think we often know too late, but here's a way to know. If you are trying and then you're trying harder and then you're trying harder still. And you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, in your health, in anything. You're like, more effort is not producing more results.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  I think that is the time you should stop. Ask yourself, is it the situation, like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like then, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing in try harder, but that I think is the signal. And I think I missed that signal. I was just like, oh, just like keep going.

• 43:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  I mean, that's the problem with a superpower, right? Like it, like it's a kryptonite. You don't realize.

• 44:02Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the school of greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops. Because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now let's get back to the conversation. Let's hypothetically go back and say, you know, you, you stayed in the relationship and it wasn't, maybe it got a little bit better, but it wasn't really transforming after therapy and you guys just cut it. We're just gonna stick this out for the kids or whatever, like, we're just gonna stay in this.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  You're asking me to like, think through this counterfactual, right?

• 44:46Lewis Howes?

  Go back, go back in time.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Go back in time, but also imagine that like, yeah.

• 44:49Lewis Howes?

  And let's just say the marriage got maybe a little bit better, but it's kind of just like running its course and you're just staying together. And let's say he wasn't encouraging. Maybe he wasn't negative, but he wasn't like positively encouraging you and supporting you in projects and books and speeches and, you know, championing you as a partner. Do you think him being neutral or even him putting doubt inside of you with negative words or negative thoughts? Would that have hurt your, your experience in life and, and hurt you from accomplishing what you've accomplished? Do you think you would have been able to overcome that with that type of situation?

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Like you, like literally just described my mother's marriage to my father, right? So I know what that looks like because that was her. So, you know, my parents also fell head over heels in love. They were actually fabulously good looking. Like I, I watched these like old movies of them and I was like, holy, my mother was like a female, you know, like, like, like she was a goddess. I mean, she looked like a Chinese Sophia Loren. And my dad actually, to my shock and awe, was like, actually pretty good looking too. And, you know, he had a big white convertible. I mean, they had this like very head over heels romance, much like Jason and I. But you just described really, I think what, what their marriage was like.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  So my mother immigrated to this country, like knowing no one, first in her family. She spoke hardly any English. She, she wanted to be an artist and she thought she could do it, you know, make her dream come true in America, right?

• 46:22Lewis Howes?

  So she changed her situation, moved countries.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Changed her situation, which I think is good. Step one, yeah, she has situational agency. My mother is a paragon of situational agency. But her, but her situation wasn't perfect. So she moved from, you know, Taiwan to the United States. That was a better situation because like, as a woman, you can go to art school in the United States. Like she went to great art schools here.

• 46:43Lewis Howes?

  But there was challenges because she didn't know the language and other challenges.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  And she overcame them because she's also gritty. Okay. So, um, okay. But in marrying my dad, who went by Y K, because he's like a very unpronounceable tonal Chinese name. Let's call him Y K. Cause that's what everyone did. In marrying Y K, Teresa married into a very traditional marriage, like a very traditional Chinese marriage. Because though they were in the United States, they were both raised in China in the nineteen thirties. So not only was she raised to be a good wife, he was raised to marry a good wife. And he married her because she was beautiful, but not because she was smart and creative and awesome. Well, awesome, maybe, but mostly because she was beautiful and kind, but not because she was like a great artist and like ambitious and and smart.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Because like my mom was every bit as, you know, is as every bit as smart as my dad was. My dad's now passed. So when you describe this marriage, like Angela, go back in time. Imagine, imagine greatness and the ceiling that, you know, how high would it be? If you had a different supporter at home, if you had somebody who was giving you like, you know, doubts and so forth and was like actually resentful. I was like, I don't have to imagine it, Lewis, because that is the marriage my mother had. So what happened to this like, and my mom, by the way, was maybe more talented than you and I were like, she was a prodigy. Like I saw the paintings, she still has them that she made when she was a teenager. And I really think she had a gift.

• 48:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  So she had a gift and she had grit and she was in America, like what's, you know, what's wrong? What's wrong is like, well, the trifecta, but I guess there are four things. Because like she didn't have, she didn't have the marriage.

• 48:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  So, so my dad was not mean and not a bad person.

• 48:26Lewis Howes?

  Kind of dismissive or kind of just like.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Not supportive, right? Like, like, um.

• 48:30Lewis Howes?

  Don't do that stuff. You should be doing this.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Well, like, uh, you know what, like, let's start a wholesale needlepoint company, um, because it will make money. And do you, do you know what needlepoint is?

• 48:41Lewis Howes?

  Needlepoint, meaning, what is that?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Okay, it's a handicraft.

• 48:45Lewis Howes?

  I thought it was like sewing, like.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  It's a version of sewing.

• 48:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  You get this canvas.

• 48:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  It's like.

• 48:51Lewis Howes?

  It's like artwork needlepoint. Is that what you mean?

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the canvas is usually like painted with like, I don't know, like a unicorn or like your dog or something, right? Or it can have like a saying like, you know, like home is where the heart is and like it's painted. So you get this white canvas and it's painted and needlepoint is this.

• 49:05Lewis Howes?

  Big string in there like a.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is like, you know, by the way, this is partly why their like business idea didn't take off. But anyway, like, nobody does needlepoint. So like you, you like, if it's green, you stitch green and if it's yellow, you stitch yellow. So my dad's idea like was not necessarily a bad, it's like not evil. But when you're married to somebody, your job is not to make them happy, but your job is to help them realize their dreams. And my dad did not do that. So he wanted my mom to run this business. Do you want to, like, they became small business owners. I mean, he had a career, he was a chemist, but he gave her this assignment, which is like.

• 49:43Lewis Howes?

  Side hustle.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, full time side hustle.

• 49:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  So she ran this business, this like needlepoint business, where she was like painting dogs on canvas and like, you know, you know, like whatever, you know, home is where the heart is. Like whatever it is, like unicorns, and then, you know, getting other people to paint them and then selling them to stores. And not doing what she came to this country to do, which is to be a painter herself, like a real painter. And that was their whole marriage until he died. And then he did die and that is when my mom started painting again.

• 50:12Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  No, yeah, like.

• 50:13Lewis Howes?

  So how many years were they together until he died?

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Over fifty, gosh, I must not have like a mind for numbers. I'm like, how many years is my? Definitely over fifty.

• 50:21Lewis Howes?

  So for fifty years.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Fifty plus.

• 50:23Lewis Howes?

  Fifty plus years.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  I've been married twenty five plus.

• 50:27Lewis Howes?

  She did all the hard work to get to this country to like start pursuing it, but then not in a negative way or bad way, she was trying to be a great wife and she was trying to show up for what your father wanted, I guess.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  And that situation, if you want to contend that the most important part of getting situated is like being with the right partner.

• 50:45Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Uh, he was many things, but supportive about art. He was not curious. Like, I grew up in that house. We never went to the art museum. Like, there is a beautiful art museum in Philadelphia. It looks like it should be in Greece. It's like, you know, uh, one of the greatest art museums in the world. We never went to the art museum. Like, uh, you know, my mom, you know, like had one painting that I used to like, it had like cherry blossoms. And there was another painting that had boats. There's only two paintings in my house. Now that we've talked about this and, you know, life is long and you learn a lot. And now my ninety one year old mother looks back and says like, I should have said something, I should have done something. I asked her why there weren't more paintings, like when we were growing up and she was like, well, you know, I was taking care of your father.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  He was like my fourth child. And she said, you know, sometimes I would paint something like, because I would find like a stolen hour on the side, you know, between lunch and dinner. And, uh, and I would put it up on the wall and nobody would say anything. And especially your father, like he would walk by a new painting for months. And not say anything because he didn't notice, like he didn't notice. So like, I don't know, Martha, but I already love like, like that's changed her life, you know? I, I think that's, Jason's changed my life. And I think, you know, obviously there are a lot of people who are like, sounds great. How do I get one? But even knowing that like who you are in a certain relationship is like a different you.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Like I'm not the same Angela. So it's not only a poem about like the road not taken, like, okay, I'm on this road. It's not only like, I mean, like this traveler is not the same traveler because I did take that road, like, right? And it's changed me.

• 52:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but you've had an encouraging, supportive partner throughout this whole time and.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, not a perfect person, but like, uh.

• 52:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but he's been encouraging. He hasn't put doubt in your mind, maybe once in a while, but it sounds like consistently he puts, he reinforces positive encouragement.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  In your mind with supportive energy and cheering you on instead of doubting you or neglecting you, right?

• 52:50Speaker 01

  And, and research shows, right? And this is not like Angela and her marriage and so forth. Um, but Angela, the professor and psychologist who can tell you what. So one of the really surprising things about confidence, and I think, you know, what thousands of podcast episodes, right? Like the theme of confidence of belief, like I believed I could do it, right? Believing you can do something always proceeds doing it. You don't do things you don't believe you can do. Human beings cannot go against the grain of their own confidence.

• 53:21Lewis Howes?

  Your partner is telling you, you can't do this.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Okay, so, so.

• 53:24Lewis Howes?

  Exhausting.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  So I don't know in the marriage context, I'm sure this is true, but, uh, but in other contexts, it's like been shown in research. So much of your belief comes from other people's belief.

• 53:36Lewis Howes?

  Just saying, I believe in you.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Borrowed.

• 53:38Lewis Howes?

  Just saying, hey, I believe you can do it.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then like acting that way and so forth. So like, how important is it to have a partner who believes in you, a coach who believes in you, a boss who believes in you, a best friend who believes in you? It's the nature of human nature that our self-confidence comes from other people. So there's, there's this experiment that's called the Pygmalion Effect. It's actually appropriately, since we ended up talking about love and marriage and Martha and Jason. So it's not a true story and it's not a research study, but the Pygmalion myth from Greek mythology is that there is a sculptor whose name is Pygmalion. And he carves a statue out of ivory that is so beautiful that he falls in love with it.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  And he so believes that, um, this statue is real, that the goddess of love Aphrodite, like sort of looks down on this mortal and takes some pity on him and, and basically brings the statue to life. And the reason why this research study is called the Pygmalion Effect is because the idea is that if you truly believe in somebody else, like it will transform them, it will bring them to life. So the study is that there are these little kids at an elementary school in California. And they're just going through elementary school and before the beginning of the school year, this Harvard psychologist, um, named Bob Rosenthal, who came to this hypothesis that belief is borrowed, that self-confidence comes from other people, that you need to be in these relationships.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Because who has the belief that they can do something until someone else says they can do it and acts like they can do it? So he randomly assigns these kids to either be labeled as gifted or not, right? And for the gifted group, he goes and he tells their teachers, he's like, oh, by the way, here's the list of kids before the school year starts. I gave them the like Harvard test of inflected reasoning. I mean, he made this up, he made up the test, he made up the title, but it sounded very fancy and he was a Harvard professor. And he said, and these are your, um, these are your bloomers. And, um, it might not be obvious on day one of school and it may not be obvious on day ten, but like before the end of the school year, you will see that they're, they bloom because they are gifted. So he gave the teachers the belief in the kids, right, experimentally.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  We just waited to see what happened and sure enough, it was a self fulfilling prophecy. The teachers believed that these kids would be great. That gave the kids the confidence that they were great. And even on IQ tests, especially the youngest kids, like they literally did better.

• 56:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  By a lot by the end of the year. And so the Pygmalion Effect is the, is the reality that our belief, Angela Duckworth's belief in Angela Duckworth is not just because of Angela Duckworth, it's because of Jason Duckworth. And, you know, like another like set of people, but, but it's just evidence that your relationships matter to not only like what your opportunities are, but like how you think about yourself as a person.

• 56:35Lewis Howes?

  Yes. And that's why I think your book is so powerful situated because it's about finding the people and places that bring out your best. And you said people first in the title.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  I guess I could have said places and it was, yeah, it takes primacy, right? It's pole position.

• 56:48Lewis Howes?

  Because, and you talk about mentorship and relationships. The relationships we choose to create. Now, obviously, when you're a kid, you can't choose your parents and siblings, but.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:58Lewis Howes?

  At some point, hopefully your parents can choose your friends for you early on and start putting you in those relationships and putting you in the right school environment, whatever it might be, to set you up for that success. But when we're adults, if we have the opportunity to choose people specifically, that pour into you positive re encouragement, positive self belief. It is going to give you so much a greater advantage than being in, you know, the perfect school, the perfect place, without those people giving that to you.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Like you like the people part, I, I, I, I couldn't agree more and. Liz, it's it's really like not like, oh, you'll be 5% more productive. Like, um, you'll be 7% more efficient. Like, if like, it is. I think to me, the transformative element is that you don't know who you could become like.

• 57:49Lewis Howes?

  That's the thing.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Right? Like.

• 57:50Lewis Howes?

  And your mom, like, who could she have become? Not that she was.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  My mom.

• 57:53Lewis Howes?

  Not that she's not great right now, and she raised great kids and she had a great marriage, but.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Who could my mother have become?

• 57:59Lewis Howes?

  Who could she become?

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Who could my, like, what?

• 58:00Lewis Howes?

  And it doesn't mean that she was could have been a famous, maybe she could have been famous, but maybe she could have just enjoyed her life more, creating the art she had inside of her.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, like, like, she will tell you herself that, uh, she asked that question, right? And again, you know, is she sorry that she raised her family?

• 58:18Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Like, did she, did she feel like she had infinite freedom? Like, no. But yeah, no, and, and, um, you'll be happy to know at age 91. I mean, she paints every day, like.

• 58:27Lewis Howes?

  And how does it make her feel or look or what's her energy like?

• 58:30Speaker 01

  She texted me once and she said, um, in this text message, like, when I paint, I have no age. Like, I forget that I am old.

• 58:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Right? Um, and she says, like, every day I'm good to work to, like, make these dreams come true. Yeah, like, God bless. She's very healthy 91 year old. But I think it's just, um, I mean, it really is. It's like, okay, now she's in a situation where like, there are people, I asked her about her art, like, growing up, I was not part of a situation that was supportive. I never asked mom, like, do you want to go to the art museum? Like, what are you working on? Like, do you like this painting? Like, now, now I ask her better, I ask her to send pictures or I go to her art studio. Like, I, like, I'm only a tiny part of that situation. But, but yeah, and I think the, the point that I'm, you know, inadequately expressing is like, again, it's not about 5% or 7% gains, it's a transformation in like, in who you are, like, you're, you are a different person.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  You are a different person when you're in a different situation.

• 59:27Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, so true. I've got a couple of final questions for you. This has been powerful. I didn't even ask you any questions.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  I can't believe you talked about my marriage the whole time.

• 59:35Lewis Howes?

  Fascinating.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  It's okay.

• 59:37Lewis Howes?

  But I think.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  It's an important part of my life.

• 59:38Lewis Howes?

  I think you learn so much about a human being based on the people they're with. And I just don't think you would be as happy and healthy and, you know, successful in your career without a great partner supporting you and encouraging you. We talked about off camera about, you know, early on in your career, you thought you might want to study the placebo. I'm a big fan of the placebo of like, even if it's not true, if you believe something to be true, it gives you that, that belief, that energy, that.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  And that's a self fulfilling prophecy, right?

• 1:00:10Lewis Howes?

  It is. And it's like, and it makes you more gritty and all these things.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  And by the way, the Pygmalion effect and the placebo effect are highly related. They're both about belief and they're both about the belief preceding the reality, but then creating the reality, right?

• 1:00:23Lewis Howes?

  There's a book out, uh, by Mir Iyal. Do you know him? He wrote a book called Beyond Belief.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Lewis Howes?

  Really interesting.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Who is Mir Iyal? He's a psychologist or something, right?

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Like Israeli, am I guessing?

• 1:00:32Lewis Howes?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:00:33Lewis Howes?

  It's called Beyond Belief.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  I haven't read it, but I think I read his previous book.

• 1:00:36Lewis Howes?

  Book is powerful.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Lewis Howes?

  I think the previous book was called Hooked, I think it was.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Yes, that is the one, yeah, yeah, about distractions.

• 1:00:41Lewis Howes?

  The new one is about belief. You should check it out.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:43Lewis Howes?

  It's called Beyond Belief and.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Good title.

• 1:00:46Lewis Howes?

  I believe he was also atheist, I believe, before from what he was talking about. And he said, in all my research of studying beliefs and the benefits of belief, I now pray to God, even though I don't necessarily, I didn't grow up thinking about this, but I, and I never prayed before. But prayer makes you happier and healthier and helps you accomplish your goals more.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  So I'm going to believe.

• 1:01:08Lewis Howes?

  So I believe it, even if I don't know really 100% there's a, there's a God.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I choose to believe.

• 1:01:14Lewis Howes?

  I've chosen to believe based on the psychological, emotional and health benefits in my life.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Lewis Howes?

  Prayer.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:19Lewis Howes?

  And so I pray every day.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  So interesting, yeah.

• 1:01:22Lewis Howes?

  I believe it's going to make me better.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Lewis Howes?

  And whether, and then when you're talking about your, your husband, Jason, how he prays every day.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Lewis Howes?

  To be better and how can I have more integrity and make better choices?

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  You know what? There are lots of books about believing and I am not saying that, like, you shouldn't read that one. But I will say mindset, you know, like, you know, like, you, you're like, there, there are lots of things about what you do in your mind. You pray, you meditate, you set goals. I think, I believe in all of it, by the way, like, I, I, I think there should be a thousand books, a million books, right? Because that is a lot of, of changing, like, your behavior to be better than you were yesterday. But I would tell you this, many people, let's take prayer as an example. Like, why are there churches and mosques and synagogues, right? Like, why are there sacred spaces, right? Like, well, the same reason why there are libraries and restaurants.

• 1:02:15Lewis Howes?

  And art museums are.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  And art museums and art studios, right? Like, uh, and I know we've talked a lot about relationships as being the most important part of your situation. But just on the side of the, like, the physical.

• 1:02:26Lewis Howes?

  Spaces are important also, yes, of course.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Right? I think prayer is easier in certain places, like, you could pray at Starbucks.

• 1:02:33Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  You know, and maybe some people are really good at praying in Starbucks, but when I go to church, which I do, you know, like, that's a different space, right?

• 1:02:42Lewis Howes?

  More present to it. You're more.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  You know, at least for me, right? So, so again, like, it's a late understanding of mine in a way. Cause I think I was like, if you just try hard, everything will work out. It's like, no, no, you should just try hard in a great situation. I think that situation should have the people who bring out your best.

• 1:03:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  First and foremost, I think we agree.

• 1:03:04Lewis Howes?

  And the environment.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  And the physical environment.

• 1:03:07Lewis Howes?

  Well, you put people first, so you know, that's.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, and I'm, I'm with you, like, I'm speaking from the same hymnal. But, um, but I think the, I think the physical matter, I mean, when I walked into this place, I was like, oh, I love it, right? Like, and I, I think it was.

• 1:03:20Lewis Howes?

  We try to create, create these spirits.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Great vibe, right? Like, details matter. So like, do all the details matter the same? No, but I think like, once you just open your eyes, like, just look around, right? Like, look around, who are you with? Where are you? What is within reach? Like, what do you see? You know, do you like the billboards in the city that you live in? Or do you look at those billboards and you say, like, what am I doing here? I will tell you, the billboards are different in LA than they are in Philadelphia.

• 1:03:47Lewis Howes?

  They're not as, they're probably not as, they don't make you feel as good, probably.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Well, have you been to Philadelphia?

• 1:03:52Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I haven't been there a long time, so maybe. I know the weather is better here.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  I think our billboards are 90% about like.

• 1:03:59Lewis Howes?

  We can see the billboards. You can't see in the rain there, the clouds will.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Okay, that's true. Well, that's the other problem. But, um, but in Philadelphia, our billboards are more mostly like, um, you know, like, how to, you know, sue people, like, you know, like.

• 1:04:10Lewis Howes?

  Political or government or like legal.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Like the legal thing where like, you know, the guy.

• 1:04:15Lewis Howes?

  There's a lot of those here too, though, and the highway, they're everywhere, yeah.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Okay, well, maybe that'll make me feel better. I just like passed a lot of entertainment ones, so I just thought like very different thing. But, um, but yeah, you should just be, I think, be aware of it before you change your situation, right? Cause absolutely should, but I think just being aware, that's probably step one, just like notice.

• 1:04:32Lewis Howes?

  Step one.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33Lewis Howes?

  That's it. Angela, this has been powerful. I got a couple of final questions. This question is, uh, something I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish and create everything you want on this road that you're on. But for whatever reason, in the hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book is gone, great is gone, all of your speeches, content, video, all gone.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  It's in this podcast, everything's gone, everything before this moment.

• 1:05:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes, but you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons that you've learned from your experience that you would share with the world. And we get to keep that. What would those three truths be for you?

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Number one, effort is the final common path to greatness. Number two, effort pays off more in certain situations than others. Number three, you can change your situation for the better.

• 1:05:31Lewis Howes?

  Another hypothetical scenario, if you could go back to the day you graduated, where your mom put her hands on your shoulders and said, now you can be a wife.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Now you're ready to be a wife.

• 1:05:39Lewis Howes?

  Now you're ready to be a wife.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Lewis Howes?

  If you could go back and just, you know, hypothetically, time travel, you are who you are now. And you see that girl then on graduation day. And if you were able to send a message to her and speak to her for 30 to 60 seconds. And you were able to look in the camera and speak to her, what would that message be to her? Of everything that she's about to go through and what advice would you give her?

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  I'd say, Angie, you think of life as a watercolor. And you think that when you brush a stroke of pigment, you can't undo it. But that's not the right metaphor, because life is not a watercolor painting, where the job is to be perfect, make no mistakes, and that things get ruined unless they don't get ruined. It's an oil painting. In an oil painting, you can just like throw on a whole nother layer, the things, you know, it, it's, it's a work in progress.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  When I was 22, I thought I would just try harder and harder, live as perfect a life as I could in every dimension. And when things did go south, um, in any endeavor, um, I did try harder. But in that one crucial decision where I chose the road I chose, the chose, you know, I chose the road with Jason. It was a shift from the watercolor metaphor, like this marriage must be ruined, to like, it's an oil painting, and if we can put ourselves in the right situation, then we're going to be more than okay.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  And if I hadn't shifted metaphors, I would not have been able to make those adjustments that put us on the road I'm glad I'm on.

• 1:07:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's beautiful.

• 1:07:40Lewis Howes?

  Well, Angie, I want to acknowledge you for the book you created, Situated. Find the People in Places That Bring Out Your Best.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  People First.

• 1:07:47Lewis Howes?

  People First. For me, this is the book everyone should be reading right now because I'm just a big believer proximity is power. And this gives you more tools and more wisdom on how to make sure you're in proximity to the right people and places to support your goals, support your dreams, and ultimately live a better life, live a happier, more fulfilled life in a world where a lot of people are struggling and stressing. And that's what we try to do here on the School of Greatness is give people those tools. So I want to acknowledge you for this. I want to acknowledge you for opening up and talking about your marriage. I don't know if you thought you'd be doing that here today.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  I did not think so. But you know what? I was happy to do it. Can I ask you a question? I know that you often ask your interviewees, your guests, like what their definition of greatness is.

• 1:08:32Lewis Howes?

  Well, that's my next question for you.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  But can you answer it for me?

• 1:08:35Lewis Howes?

  For me, it's discovering your unique talents and gifts that God gave you to pursue your dreams. And in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. And earlier in my life, I would have thought greatness is about being the best, being number one and winning. And that's kind of what I thought it was when I was like a teenager or twenties, you know, something. And I realized that that definition or that belief in my mind got me those results, but left me feeling unhappy because I was making it all about me and what I wanted rather about, you know, we and service. And so then I, as I started to start the School of Greatness,

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Lewis Howes?

  I went through a healing journey and a journey of more self-discovery and wondering why I was feeling this anger and frustration inside of me, even though I was accomplishing everything that I wanted.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Right, you were winning.

• 1:09:30Lewis Howes?

  But why am I unhappy? Why am I, why am I in breakdown relationship? Why, what's going on?

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Lewis Howes?

  And I realized I was just like, oh, that's not the secret to a fulfilling life. It's about we. It's about everyone needs to win. It should be about win-win, not win-lose.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:46Lewis Howes?

  And in sports, you know, you're just conditioned like win, give your best, like get better and improve. And if you're not a winner,

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Win-lose.

• 1:09:54Lewis Howes?

  And if you're not a winner, you're a loser.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:56Lewis Howes?

  So that framework of sports is a win-lose unless you look at sports differently and say, even if I lose, how can I win? Even if I lose, where's the lesson? Where was the growth? Where was the good? What about that moment we had as teammates? Like, what did I learn from my coach? What about that sportsmanship that we created here? Or what about the other team was really negative and nasty and I responded with my integrity? You know, whatever it might be, where's the win in the loss? And I just never thought of that when I was growing up. I thought like, if we don't win, that I'm a loser. I am a loser.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:31Lewis Howes?

  And I cannot deal with feeling like I am, not I experienced a loss.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:36Lewis Howes?

  It was an identity of I am, instead of we experienced this loss in this game, but I'm not a loser. And it was like, no, any loss, I am not enough. And so it was more of a, oh, this is unsustainable way of living life.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Lewis Howes?

  And I believe like your mom, she had an incredible talent and gift that God, someone gave her, that she was curious about. She wanted to paint. And she pursued that for a while, and then she had to diminish it for a while. And now she's doing it again. And she says she feels ageless. And it doesn't mean she has to be some famous world-class painter that is recognized in the Philadelphia Museum and makes millions of dollars. But she feels the most alive she's ever felt, it sounds like, pursuing her gift and talent.

• 1:11:29Lewis Howes?

  And I believe it shouldn't be with only ourselves. It should be shared, our gift and talent, whether that's with a small community, friends, family, the world, whatever it might be. But if we don't share it, then I don't think it's greatness. So it's finding ways to discover our talents and gifts, sharing with others and making an impact on those people around us with our talents. That's for me what it is. But what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  I think greatness is being part of and in service to something larger than yourself. And that is also the definition I would give for meaning. And the longer explanation is this. I think the psychologist who has influenced me at least as much as any other is Viktor Frankl.

• 1:12:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Man's Search for Meaning.

• 1:12:14Lewis Howes?

  So great. Stimulus and Response.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  And I think Viktor Frankl is not understood. I think there's a mistake we make when we think of Viktor Frankl. People are like, oh, right, the psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  That's true. Stimulus and Response, right? Between stimulus and response, there's a space. In that space, we find our freedom. He often quoted Nietzsche, and he would say things about how you cannot always change your situation, but you can change how you respond to the situation. And I think that's the lesson that people take from Man's Search for Meaning and then his own triumph in adversity. Because when you are in a concentration camp, there's very little you can do to change your situation. But if you read Man's Search for Meaning carefully, he says two things that I think are not always understood about Viktor Frankl. One is, he says emphatically, when you can change your situation, you should because not to do so would be foolish and masochistic.

• 1:13:12Lewis Howes?

  Don't stay in a horrible situation.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  I mean, maybe you are in a concentration camp. You have zero degrees of freedom. You can't change like where this cup is. You can't change what's in the cup. You can't change where your phone is. You can't change whether, you know, you hang out with this person or that person. You have zero freedom. I think Viktor Frankl, when he escaped, when he was released from the concentration camps, and he came especially to lecture in America, he said, you know, emphatically that you do have freedoms and so you should consider them responsibly. So that's one mistake we make that like Viktor Frankl did not want us to only think about how we respond to our situation. Viktor Frankl wanted us to be in better situations and make those better for others. And the second thing I was saying...

• 1:13:52Lewis Howes?

  Maybe him, he would have put places first over the people.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  I don't know. Viktor Frankl, I wish I'm not going to put words in Viktor Frankl. He probably would say, oh, it's both. He probably put people first. But Viktor Frankl had a debate, like when you talk about what, what you are trying to accomplish in the short time you have on this planet, Louis, and I think our definitions of greatness overlap, right? It's about pointing towards something that's not you, right? Like greatness isn't self-actualization. It is what Frankl called self-transcendence. So again, I don't know that people like got into the nitty-gritty of what Viktor Frankl wrote about for the rest of his life because he wrote over 30 books, right? Man's Search for Meaning was the first. He had a debate with Abraham Maslow. Abraham Maslow's higher, yes.

• 1:14:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  They were contemporaries. Both Jewish. Abraham Maslow, born in the Bronx or something or Brooklyn. So like did not survive the concentration camps, but they sparred, right? They're both great psychologists. The reason why they debated each other is they had a disagreement over what was the highest expression of human existence. In other words, what is greatness?

• 1:14:59Lewis Howes?

  Self-actualization, right?

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And in 1943, Maslow wrote a paper with a hierarchy of needs. On the bottom is like, you know, food and that's safety, exactly, all the survival needs. And then it's like, and then there's to love and be loved. And then there's a Steve. But the top, right? So that, you know, the top, he never drew a pyramid. But the top of this hierarchy was self-actualization, realizing your potential, realizing your gifts and your ambitions. But that was not what you gave. You said in service to others, right? So the debate was that Viktor Frankl thought Abraham Maslow had missed the final layer. He, he called it self-transcendence. He said, it's not self-actualization. It's to be pointed outward to something greater than yourself, to other people. So I will just say that

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  I think a lesson that I would hope people would take from a careful reading of Man's Search for Meaning and Viktor Frankl is that greatness is not self-actualization. It is self-actualization in service of self-transcendence.

• 1:15:58Lewis Howes?

  I like it.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  And you can either take that lesson or the fact that like, you know, Viktor Frankl doesn't want you to be a masochist and like suffer in a, in a losing, he doesn't want you to be in a bad marriage. He just wants you to have a toxic, you know, work environment. But, but I do think that there's so much wisdom there. And I do believe that there is a space between stimulus and response. And in there, there lies freedom. And I also believe that you can change the stimulus itself. Yeah, like Mary Martha or Jason, like find your Martha, like find your Jason, like be with the people who bring out your best. It will change your life. It will change you.

• 1:16:32Lewis Howes?

  Amen. Amen. Angela, I appreciate you being here. I want to make sure people get the book Situated. It's out right now. And also hopefully we see you more on Instagram because I saw some sparse content on there. But hopefully you're on there more frequently in the future.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  We're working on it. I changed that situation. You're gonna see me.

• 1:16:49Lewis Howes?

  Angela Duckworth on Instagram, Duckworth Lab on YouTube as well. And Angie, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you very much.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  I enjoyed it.

• 1:16:58Lewis Howes?

  Thank you. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes

• 1:17:42Lewis Howes?

  with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.