Your Body Language Is Telling You You're Not Safe | Amy Cuddy

Amy Cuddy, social psychologist, Harvard Business School lecturer, and former Kellogg School of Management faculty, discusses power posing, postural feedback, self-affirmation theory, and 4-7-8 breathing. Topics include her TED Talk research, meta-analyses of power posing studies, Alison Wood Brooks’s anxiety-reframing research, and her friendship with Alex Wubbels. References include What Every Body is Saying, 12 Rules For Life, and imposter syndrome data from Harvard Business School students.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Lewis Howes?

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• 0:46Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, what have you learned in the last year and a half about getting back to like, just being a confident human being in the world? Not even like performing well, you know, in a sport or business, but just like, how do you just walk around with confidence?

• 1:00Speaker 01

  People study combat soldiers and find that like during battles, they perform really well because they're on the same page. That's the threat. This is what we're doing. Teams work well. Good leaders are great leaders. But so that's how people were for the first couple of months. They're like, I can do this. And then you deplete what psychologists call surge capacity, which is this sort of network that keeps us going during acute threats.

• 1:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  And so we depleted that. And then we all sort of went into this regression phase or, you know, I mean, at different times. But it had a lot to do with the depleted nervous system, but also just the lack of control. We just, we lost control of our lives. I mean, there were external forces that we couldn't control. And that lack of real power, I think, translated into a lack of the feeling of power, of this more internal sense of agency and power. And so people, you know, really started kind of shutting down. So for me, I think as we kind of reemerge, and it's not going to be like, this is the end day, let's go celebrate in the streets.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  We know it's not gonna, it's this, we're in this constant flux right now, which is also draining.

• 2:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  But as, the only way we're going to reemerge is if we regain that sense of personal power. I mean, people have to feel that they have the ability to make change in their lives, to do things. I know it seems so simple, but you know, we talk a lot about well-being and we're usually talking about happiness and, you know, good physical health, health and lack of stress. That's, that's like high well-being. But I think another component that's really important is this feeling of power. And I don't mean power over others, personal power, right? Not power over others, not zero sum power, but just personal power.

• 2:55Lewis Howes?

  How do we get to, what does that even look like? What is, what is personal power? And how do we start to build it?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  I think, you know, it is the feeling that you are entitled to bring your, you know, your best self to challenging situations. But that also involves knowing who your best self is. And that's difficult too. But it's like, so it's, it's, I think often we don't even feel that we sort of deserve to, to be there. And so we can't fully show up. So personal power is, is the feeling of sort of being in control of our internal resources, to bring our skills and abilities forward, to be the most sort of generous, open-minded version of ourselves. That's, that's personal power.

• 3:45Lewis Howes?

  But if we don't have, if we don't believe that we are deserving to have power,

• 3:51Lewis Howes?

  how do we get there? How do we change the belief to deserve it? And then start to have that?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I mean, and let me say first, I don't think, personal power is not a substitute for skills and knowledge. And I think that sometimes people mis-hear me when I talk about this topic and think that I'm saying you can just, you know, you can just fake it. You can't. Like for me, personal power is, is about, it is about revealing the skills that you already have. But it also gives you, it gives you more bandwidth to build more skills. Right? So it's self-reinforcing as well.

• 4:32Lewis Howes?

  Because there's a lot of people that already have developed skills, but they don't believe that they're deserving or they don't know how to effectively communicate those skills. Interesting.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 4:42Lewis Howes?

  There's so many people that I've heard from that say, they've had a dream for five, 10, 20 years and they have the skills to do it, but they don't have the courage to put it out there.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:54Lewis Howes?

  So is personal power connected to courage as well?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  I think it absolutely is. And it's, it's, you know, sometimes I say sometimes we have to get out of the way of ourselves so that we can be ourselves, like we get in our own way. But, you know, I'm now writing about social bravery, right? Not physical bravery, but social bravery, like standing up for people who are, who are being abused, who are being mistreated or, you know, and it is hard. And it's harder in many ways than physical bravery. There's, there's not a lot of glory that comes with it. You're risking, you know, being kicked out of the tribe. But think about it in terms of like bystander intervention, like the studies of, you know, when do bystanders intervene in an emergency?

• 5:37Speaker 01

  The best predictor of, of adults intervening when another adult is being bullied online is sense of power, right? So yes, so when people feel powerful, they also feel more courageous.

• 5:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  And so I think, you know, that's, that, that, yes, I think these things are very, very similar. And I think that we are in a collective sense of powerlessness right now. And so I, I just think it's, it's everywhere. And people seem like agitated at each other. They turn on each other. We are turning on each other. I mean, you, you see it at the sort of group level, but also at the individual level. And, and that's what happens when people feel powerless.

• 6:23Lewis Howes?

  What is the thing that we should be thinking of first? Is it, let's focus on healing the wounds of our past that have made us feel powerless? Let's work on developing new skills to make us feel more confident and competent? Let's focus on knowledge?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  It's hard to say like what's first for, for, it's idiosyncratic to the person. So certainly for many people, you know, powerlessness comes from trauma. And obviously, you know, there are different parts of the dealing with trauma process. But part, part of it obviously is understanding what happened and where that came from and that that's not who you were born as, right? And that you are allowed to undo this, right? So there, there is, there is that. And I don't want to neglect that, that people who are suffering from, you know, post-traumatic stress, they have to be able to deal with that.

• 7:18Lewis Howes?

  What, what happens if we never undo or heal the traumas of the past? Whether it be, you know, little micro traumas that just continue to build or bigger traumas, abuse, you know, accidents, you know, big breakups, things like loss?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  I mean, they just, they, they build on each other. It's sort of that simple. Like, you know, it's, you know, traumatic events, the idea of triggers, right? Is that when, when something reminds you of that traumatic event, that sort of neural pathway gets activated and all of the feelings that went with that trauma that happened when you were 12 are now being activated when you're 40.

• 7:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  And they're not helpful to you now, right?

• 7:59Lewis Howes?

  They make you more powerless.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Right. They might have helped you to kind of survive when you were 12, but not now. So, you know, I think that we, I'm, I'm sensitive about this because people have just endured enormous trauma.

• 8:20Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  And so I don't, some of it you just never get rid of. But, but not addressing it, I think, only shuts us down more and, and probably makes it harder for us to know ourselves in many other, like we become afraid of ourselves. And that, that makes it, I think, harder for us to be, you know, a good partner in a relationship, a good member of society, you know, to be somebody who's helping others.

• 8:49Lewis Howes?

  What do you think we can do to reveal ourselves to ourself better? So that we can fully accept who we are or what we've been through or had done to us or done to others or whatever it is, the shame and guilt we're holding on to? So that we can have more personal power and an authentic? Way moving forward in those relationships.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Well, I think one, I mean, this is just a simple exercise. So there's, there's this research on what we call self-affirmation. And I don't mean, like, in, I don't know if you remember the old Stuart Smalley skits on Saturday Night Live. He was like a motivational speaker and he'd say like, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, I'm doggone it, people like me. It was daily affirmations with Stuart Smalley and by the end he'd be in a shame spiral. So he'd be trying to talk himself out of it by saying, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great.

• 9:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  That doesn't really work.

• 9:41Lewis Howes?

  If you don't believe it.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. In fact, then you're just lying to yourself and now you trust yourself even less. So saying I'm great, when you feel self-doubting, in a way is the worst thing you can do.

• 9:53Lewis Howes?

  What's the best thing you can do?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Well, here's one of my favorite tasks. So actual, like, the, the theory of self-affirmation in psychology is not about saying, I'm great. Or, you know, I'm gonna win this event, whatever.

• 10:06Lewis Howes?

  I'm the best.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  It is about affirming to yourself what your values are, who you really are, like, what do you, what makes you you. So the task is so simple and there's so much research on this, that doing the simple task helps people perform better in totally unrelated tasks. So the task is to first list the, maybe the top three things that you care most about, that really, that, that, if I took them away, you would just no longer be yourself, right?

• 10:40Lewis Howes?

  What would those be for you? Couple of things?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  I have a kind of pathological optimism. Like, I think, I am upset when somebody does something that hurts someone else in a way that some people might think is naive, but I'm glad I feel that way. Like, I'm, like, I, I am so hurt that people behave badly. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm troubled by it. And I'm glad that I'm troubled by it, because I'm gonna keep on trying to change that. I think it's a kind of earnestness that people find it irritating, but I'm totally okay with earnestness. And actually, this is one of the things that Amy Purdy and I have in common. Like, she is like this too. You know, she's just like sad when people are mean.

• 11:24Lewis Howes?

  She's got such a great heart.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Totally, but, but she does stuff. She's not just sitting there being sad. Anyway, I would say that that is one of the things that makes me who I am. And if somebody said, you're just, you know, you're, you're naive and, and you really can't move forward in life if you hold on to this belief that people can be good, I'd be like, well, then I'm no longer who I am. Right? So the task of self-affirmation is you list like three of these things and then you rank them. And, and, you know, and you may, may, maybe only ranking them based on how you feel today. But then you take the top one, you write a paragraph about why it matters to you. And then you write another paragraph about a time when you were able to express that value, that, that belief and what it felt like to do that.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  That's, that's it. That's self-affirmation. And so, you know, some people might say, you know, being, you know, being creative, like, art is important to me. Or, you know, helping people in my community, whatever it is. When people do that, they then are less anxious in stressful situations and they perform better. So for example, college students who do self-affirmation at the beginning of the semester perform better on their midterm exams and, you know, have a lower, lower levels of, of epinephrine.

• 12:44Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Than, than students who don't do that task. So self-affirmation is basically you shoring yourself up. And what happens is that when you go in to take like, say, this calculus exam, you, you know that no matter what happens during that exam, you will still be you when you leave. Like, no one's gonna, this, how you do in that calculus exam is not gonna change who you are.

• 13:06Lewis Howes?

  Your value of who you are.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. I'm still gonna be this person who wants people to be nice to each other.

• 13:11Lewis Howes?

  So whether you win, or get an A, or get an F, or you lose. Either way, you still have that value.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 13:19Lewis Howes?

  You're affirming the value that you love about yourself.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:23Lewis Howes?

  Not related to the result or the outcome.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. But if you said like, oh, I'm, I'm going to say that I love calculus. And then you, that would never work, right?

• 13:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  So it's about knowing who you are. You're not, you can't be great at everything, sorry. You can't be perfect at everything.

• 13:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  And that's okay.

• 13:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Right? You, you will still be, you, you are allowed to be you.

• 13:46Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. Interesting. It reminded me of a, I had Kobe Bryant on the show and he mentioned that earlier in his kind of basketball years, when he was a teenager, he, one summer, he was like playing at a basketball camp and he didn't score one point. And he was like 13 or 14, I can't remember exactly. But, and then four years later, he's in the NBA, right? So he was like 12 or 13 and he didn't score one point. And his dad, before he went to this kind of basketball camp, said, you know, whether you do well or not, I'm gonna love you. Like, your results are not determined based on like my love for you. So, like, I want you to do well, but just have fun and get better.

• 14:31Lewis Howes?

  Just improve every day and work hard and your, your value is not based on the result.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:37Lewis Howes?

  And he scored zero, but he felt like, okay, I just wanna go back and keep playing 'cause I love the game and I wanna improve. Not because I'm looking for approval from my father.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 14:46Lewis Howes?

  And I think it's, as friends, partners, parents, if we can continue to instill that value of the person, not their results, then I think that it's gonna help people wanna get better results. So without feeling like they're never good enough.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Right. What is, what do you think, like, what would you list?

• 15:08Lewis Howes?

  So the thing of my values or the thing that I wanna, wanna get rid of, or what do you?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  No, sorry, no, your values. Like, if you were doing self-affirmation, I mean, what would you feel? Like, what's the thing that, you know, makes you who you are?

• 15:19Lewis Howes?

  I think that I really care about people, like, having a big heart. I really care about people. I want people to feel good about themselves. I want people to have the confidence and the courage to go after what they were uniquely built and designed for. And having, you know, the curiosity to explore what it could be.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:38Lewis Howes?

  For me, it's, you know, we were talking about this beforehand, that it's, I wasn't the biggest, fastest, strongest, but I had dreams and I pursued them to as far as I could in sports. And I have no regrets. Where there's a lot of guys that I knew, that I played with, were way more talented than me, that didn't have the courage. And I felt like, man, but you kind of wasted this potential, just like, to see what could have happened. Whether you failed or not, or succeeded, doesn't matter for me. But it's, what was I able to create in that process? And I want the world to be able to do that for whatever it is for them. Whatever that dream is for them, it can be, it doesn't have to be some grandiose dream of being some top athlete, but whatever that is, you're unique in this world. Can you go and have the courage to figure out what that is?

• 16:22Lewis Howes?

  And it's scary.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:24Lewis Howes?

  So I care deeply about people overcoming those challenges.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  I love that. And, and so, but imagine how it would feel if somebody was like, I'm taking that characteristic away from you, like, you no longer have that.

• 16:35Lewis Howes?

  I would just be like, I don't know. Egotistical, I don't.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  But you know that, like, you would just, you would be a shell, right?

• 16:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it'd be tough.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  And so, you know that. So this, the, the great thing about self-affirmation is it's kind of the flip side. Well, I'm telling you that that's not, never gonna be taken away from you.

• 16:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Right? You can always be that person.

• 16:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  You will always have that value. And so that helps you then to be more present and less anxious and to perform better in other situations.

• 17:02Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think people are so afraid of the, the pressure of not performing well? Or failing, or getting made fun of, or embarrassed, or laughed at, or being told, said, I told you so, you, you shouldn't do this, you're not good?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  There's a lot of, like, you kind of answered the question in the question, because they are afraid of being told. They're afraid of not doing well because they're afraid of being ashamed, like, of, of being ridiculed, of being, I think, like, it's mostly about how others perceive them. Like, the fear of being rejected, the fear of being kicked out of the tribe, which is a terrible feeling, right? Like, I mean, that, that, people are more afraid of that than they are of, you know, physical injury. And it's, you know, it's sort of related to what we were talking about before the camera started rolling, which is that, you know, this idea of bumblers and pointers,

• 17:54Speaker 01

  which a psychologist named Dan Gilbert just casually talked about once on Twitter. He said, there are two kinds of people, bumblers and pointers. The bumblers are the ones just trying, even if they don't do it well, they're trying. And the pointers are the ones making fun of the people who are trying. And so, and he said, I would rather be a bumbler. I would definitely rather be a bumbler than a pointer. But people are afraid of the pointers, right?

• 18:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, the critics that aren't actually bumbling. Not only fumbling around in the world.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  They're not bumbling because they're not doing anything.

• 18:24Lewis Howes?

  Right. Except for critiquing.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I, I think that it doesn't divide quite as easily as that, but, but, you know.

• 18:31Lewis Howes?

  But why are we so afraid of pointers? People pointing at us when it's like a lie in general, or people so afraid of, like, it's two people or one person that's holding them back from a dream they've had for years.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  It's, I mean, you know, I, I mean, I can make an evolutionary argument that we're attuned to that kind of rejection because it, it, it would indicate that you're at risk of being kicked out of the tribe. And if you're kicked out of the tribe, then you can't, you can't support yourself. Right, exactly.

• 19:02Lewis Howes?

  But that's not true anymore in this world, right?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  No, right. So we still have like, you know, some sort of primitive responses that are no longer adaptive. And, you know, we're not, like, for example, and I'm sort of moving away from the shame a bit to fear. You know, when we go into that fight, flee, or faint mode, that is adaptive if you're being chased by a tiger, but usually we're not being chased by a tiger.

• 19:29Lewis Howes?

  Getting pointed at by someone on the internet is not, that's scary. I mean, psychologically it is.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Well, it is.

• 19:35Lewis Howes?

  Physically it's not.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  At the same time, I, I don't wanna dismiss the emotional damage of, of actual abuse and bullying.

• 19:42Lewis Howes?

  Yes. But criticism.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Criticism.

• 19:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Right? Is, is not actually deadly. But it's, our bodies, our, our nervous systems feel like it's deadly.

• 19:53Lewis Howes?

  So what, is there a, a psychological strategy that you've seen? Or, or, or research that's shown how to actually practically overcome this?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  I mean, there are little. I'm very much about like the micro, like one of the little things that you can do. I mean, I'm not a clinical psychologist, I'm a social psychologist, so I can't, I can't speak to therapy.

• 20:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  But I do think it's about the way we carry ourselves, like realizing that how we carry ourselves, you know, physically, how we move, how do we interact with people, like how do we carry ourselves? That, that shapes who we are.

• 20:36Lewis Howes?

  Physical body language.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Physical body language and even just, you know, how we choose to interact with, say, you know, someone who's, who's serving us a drink at a restaurant. You know, do we choose to look them in the eye and say thank you and recognize them as human? Or do we not have the time for that? Carrying ourselves in a, in a way that is, you know, sort of both kind of powerful and also, you know, with grace, I think makes us more powerful.

• 21:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  And, and makes us kinder people.

• 21:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  Talking about the micro, micro instances.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:19Lewis Howes?

  On how to overcome this, if we're, if we're feeling like we've got something we want to put out in the world, but we're afraid of one or two pointers, critics.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:28Lewis Howes?

  That aren't going to physically beat us up or kick us out of their lives, but how do we, what's something we can do?

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Like if we, like, let's take an actual, you know, I often ask people, what is your biggest challenge? Like, what is the situation that you approach with dread? And that you execute with anxiety and that you leave with a sense of regret?

• 21:48Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  And so if you look at all, so dread, that is you projecting yourself into a future that's not gone well. So you're borrowing trouble, basically. You know, the anxiety in the moment is you thinking more about what the other person thinks of you than what they're actually just thinking. You know, you're worried about what you said a minute ago or what's going to happen afterwards. You're not able to be in the present. And then regret is, or what we call post-event processing. You're going over it, wanting a do-over, going, I didn't show, I wasn't seen, they didn't see who I am. You know that feeling like, oh, they didn't see who I am? And you want to go back in and like, in a rom-com, you get to have a do-over.

• 22:34Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  But in life, you don't. So that sense of regret becomes like a piece of baggage that you carry into the next similar situation. And then you're worried because you don't want to, you don't want to do the same thing.

• 22:45Lewis Howes?

  So you put more pressure on yourself.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  What if we could, you know, approach with a sense of, you know, composure? And execute it with a kind of calm and grounded confidence?

• 22:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  And leave feeling satisfied, even if we don't get the outcome that we want. We know that we did everything we could to show up. They saw who, who I was and it wasn't the right fit or whatever.

• 23:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  And I can accept that outcome. So you can both accept the outcome and not have that extra piece of baggage.

• 23:15Lewis Howes?

  I was watching a TikTok recently about a mom like asking her daughter to go and, I can't remember, do something by herself in a store. And this was like an 18 or 20-year-old. I think she was going to like rent a car or buy a car or something like that. She was an older, you know, teen or early twenties. And she was franticing, she was like, I cannot go in there alone. Will you come in there and do this for me? Will you come help me? I can't do this alone. The sense of like social, social interactions online, but the inability to actually be in front of someone and be rejected or looked at funny or learning how to navigate in-person social interactions.

• 23:56Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like people are going to be struggling with overcoming these fears more because of the internet and social media? Or how can they continue to navigate that, that fear of like the tribe in person, not just online?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  I don't even know where to begin. It's because there are also, first of all, like if I make any statement about where I stand on that, there will be a million people telling me I'm absolutely wrong.

• 24:25Lewis Howes?

  Got it.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  But that's like, and, and the truth is, is complicated, right? Like, and, and in some ways, social media, like, so, you know, my son's on TikTok. And I can't believe the, the courage he has now to just put a video out there. And, you know, sometimes it goes and sometimes it doesn't. And he's not, he's fine if it doesn't, if it doesn't go, if it doesn't move. So I think that that's actually been really good for him. It's, he doesn't feel rejected, he just feels like, well, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I'm never going to know if I don't put myself out there.

• 24:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  So I think in some ways, young people have become more courageous at trying things. I mean, you know, yes, I would like them to spend less time on it. And I like that he's doing music, you know, he's, he's like putting out, my kid's doing quality content.

• 25:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly, yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  No, but, but I think that in some ways, it's actually given young people an opportunity to, to be braver.

• 25:24Lewis Howes?

  To express themselves in certain ways.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And to sort of, to be rejected and see that they've survived, right? But rejection, the rejection that I'm talking about is a video, a TikTok video not going viral. It's not that it's, which is not the same as nasty comments, like being rejected and trolled. That's a different kind of rejection, right? And that's not good.

• 25:46Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely, yeah, yeah. What about the, just the anxiety of putting yourself out there? Whether it be going into a store and just interacting with people, whether it be going, giving a speech online, putting up, you know, something, human interaction in person and feeling embarrassed or rejected or made fun of?

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:04Lewis Howes?

  How do we learn to overcome that anxiety or stress about it? Is it, is it as simple as just you got to practice it and just know that you're alive?

• 26:14Speaker 01

  I hate to say something so simple, but yes, like I am, I, I am just not afraid to embarrass myself.

• 26:23Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  And I, I have to sometimes like hold on to that, like, because I think it's, I think it was really important for my son to see that. Like, to me, modeling that was really important.

• 26:39Lewis Howes?

  Not being embarrassed.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, being like, you know, making mistakes, being goofy, like doing something goofy in the grocery store.

• 26:47Lewis Howes?

  And being okay with it.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, another one is, is, it's being okay with like chatting with a stranger. And maybe they don't want to chat and that's fine, then you move on, but like, why not try? Those, I think doing those things, first of all, I think it's great to model that for kids. But I also think it's good to do it just to see the, oh, you've survived, you're fine.

• 27:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  No one cares. Exactly, no one even cares.

• 27:15Lewis Howes?

  And not remembering this for the rest of their life.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  You might have made somebody smile.

• 27:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Right, so.

• 27:21Lewis Howes?

  I'm all about social, like creating social challenges for yourself. Like if you're terrified.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's a good one. I mean, like chat with someone on, on the train or, and I know it's hard right now.

• 27:32Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Do something consistently.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, or like ask someone, ask, you know, if you're, if you're, I don't know why grocery stores seem like places where lots of silly things can happen. You know, if, if someone's like checking out, checking you, what do you?

• 27:50Lewis Howes?

  Checking you out.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Checking you out, but that sounds funny, checking you out, you know what I mean? Checking out your groceries. And they, they are looking down and they, they seem, you know, grumpy. Instead of deciding they're not friendly, consider the possibility that they're having a bad day. And, and literally like pause and say, how are you? You know, or like try to connect with them without being intrusive. Make eye contact with them, thank them, you know, make eye contact. Maybe they'll just be annoyed and not make eye contact back. But I feel like that kind of thing is really important to try. And those are things that are, create sort of social benefits for others as well.

• 28:31Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. This is something you've been studying for, I guess, decades now, which is just mastering confidence, body language, overcoming these challenges. What's been the biggest challenge for you in the last 10 years that you've had to overcome? Knowing the research and practicing these things and talking about these things yourself, what's been the challenge for you, whether career or personal or?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  I think the challenge for me has been adjusting to, you know,

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Being more well-known than the average academic, right?

• 29:05Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  And, and actually, you know, leaving academia, you know, I still teach, but I'm not, you know, I'm not a-

• 29:11Lewis Howes?

  Full-time?

• 29:12Speaker 01

  No. You know, I teach in executive education at Harvard, but I'm not, I'm not a professor. You know, I'm a lecturer when I lecture. That, leaving was hard.

• 29:22Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  So, I mean, it was a big, it was a big leap to say, to leave that security. But it wasn't, it just was not the right world for me. But I, I think the biggest challenge really has been dealing with becoming higher, sort of having, becoming higher profile and the kind of backlash that I endured as a result of that.

• 29:42Lewis Howes?

  Criticism.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Which is not, yes, and, well, yeah, I mean, criticism's fine, but bullying is not, you know?

• 29:48Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  And I know that this is common, like, this happens to, in fact, it happens to a lot of junior professors who give TED Talks.

• 29:56Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's funny, somebody just wrote to me yesterday, she has a popular TED Talk, and she, you know, she said that at her university, people started calling her TED Girl, and like, sort of talking down to her.

• 30:09Lewis Howes?

  Even though it was a popular, well-respected TED Talk?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Well, because it was popular, right? Like, it's, it's like if it had been, if it had not really hit the radar, it would have been okay.

• 30:19Lewis Howes?

  Really? But because she had some success?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so people had to sort of diminish her, in a way, you know? And, and I experienced a lot of the same stuff. So, what became hard for me was talking to colleagues, right? Like, standing up for myself. And you, you know, the truth is, we need to stand up for each other, right? When people are in an acute bullying situation, they really can't stand up for themselves. But I'm still figuring out how to engage with other people in academia who weren't necessarily bullies, but might have been bystanders, who didn't do anything, and, but, but to be able to, to say, "I still deserve to be having this conversation, I, I deserve to

• 31:03Speaker 01

  have the beliefs that I have, I deserve to defend, you know, this massive area of research on body-mind feedback, of which, you know, like, I, like, I contribute a tiny bit to."

• 31:15Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Just because these people don't like it, doesn't mean I can't, you know, say, "Well, here's why I do believe it." Here's, that's really hard for me.

• 31:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  That is the thing that I, I would approach with the most dread, I think.

• 31:28Lewis Howes?

  Were you able to implement and integrate some of your own practices and teachings when those things happened to you? When you were getting, whether it be criticism or bullying, or, you know, any of the stuff you were facing, were you able to actually integrate the-

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:42Lewis Howes?

  The body language for yourself?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  I mean, for me, the thing that works the best is, I mean, certainly, I, you know, I do, like, I walk expansively, like, I, you know, like, long strides before this kind of stressful thing. I do, I won't sit, sit down with my hands in my lap.

• 32:00Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Like, even putting your hands behind your chair, like, this is-

• 32:04Lewis Howes?

  Kind of opens you up a little bit, yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  But it forces you to open up, just doing that. But the thing that works the best for me is, is breathing. And I know there is so much on breath work now, and I don't want to, you know, I'm not an expert, but the relaxation response that's triggered by, by certain breathing patterns is incredibly effective for me. And, you know, so basically, it sends your nervous system into this rest and digest state, which is the opposite of fight, flee, or faint. And, and so the one that I like best is called four, seven, eight breathing, and we can do it right now.

• 32:38Lewis Howes?

  Yes, do it.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  So, I'll, I'll, so basically, for four counts, you inhale, for seven, you hold your breath, and for eight, you exhale.

• 32:45Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  So, I'm gonna count, and you do it.

• 32:47Lewis Howes?

  Okay, four inhale.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Seven, hold it, eight, exhale.

• 32:51Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  All right. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

• 33:04Lewis Howes?

  And you repeat that a few times?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Three times. Like, one time, you feel it.

• 33:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  It, it will put me to sleep at night. You know, if I'm relaxed, it makes me sleepy, but if I'm anxious, it calms me down. So, that just, I, I mean, there's just so much research on, on the relaxation response and breathing. And, but what I think is interesting about it is that, that, that kind of breathing is expansive, just like what I talk about, you know, like, expansive posture, that's expansive, you're breathing deeply and slowly, you're taking up more temporal space, you're expanding your, you know, like, your physical body more. And when we expand, we tend to feel more confident, more powerful, more calm.

• 33:48Lewis Howes?

  Should we always, not always, should we be, frequently be in an expansive postural state?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Well-

• 33:54Lewis Howes?

  When we're, you know, kind of nine-to-five-ish, out in the world, doing our activities?

• 33:58Speaker 01

  What we should be in is, is, is having good neutral posture. So, it's, before stressful events, you know, that's when I say, "Find a private space." I, I think I said in the TED Talk, "Find a bathroom stall."

• 34:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Which I, I honestly think, just, like, I thought of at the moment, but I can't tell you how many emails I get from people, like, "I was in another room." You know, or, or like, people who see somebody in a bathroom with their arms up in the air, like, "Are you power posing in that?"

• 34:25Lewis Howes?

  I think Ted Lasso was saying, she goes to the bathroom and does that, right?

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I know, I loved it so much.

• 34:30Lewis Howes?

  That's all good.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  You can't imagine, like, I love that show, and I had no idea-

• 34:34Lewis Howes?

  You had no idea it was coming.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  I just, I was like sobbing, I was like, "Oh my god."

• 34:37Lewis Howes?

  Well, it's so cool that you, Brene Brown, and Esther Perel-

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:42Lewis Howes?

  Who I've had both of them on as well, were all featured in there, and I'm just like, "That's amazing."

• 34:46Speaker 01

  I know. I, and I think all of us were absolutely beyond thrilled, right?

• 34:50Lewis Howes?

  Like, yeah, yeah.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  I mean, to have that, and I, I know, I, I was telling Brene this, but the first time I saw that show, I, I, at the end of the first episode, I turned to my husband and I said, "I love Ted Lasso."

• 35:02Lewis Howes?

  It's so good.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  And he goes, "That's because you are Ted Lasso."

• 35:04Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  And I was like, "Well, I guess I had good self-esteem," but, but I, I am Ted Lasso, and so are you.

• 35:10Lewis Howes?

  Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  It's funny, because Brene says that she's Roy Kent.

• 35:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I guess-

• 35:14Speaker 01

  She's more Roy Kent.

• 35:16Lewis Howes?

  You can see a little bit.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  But, uh, but anyway, yeah, the, the, so before these stressful situations, the ones that you approach with dread, that's when you find some space and really make yourself big.

• 35:27Lewis Howes?

  Expansive.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Like, whatever feels comfortable to you, expand, you know? In front of other people, it comes across as really aggressive and domineering and off-putting. But if you're in, you know, the privacy of your own bathroom stall, or office, or whatever, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to worry about cultural norms, or, or, you know, putting people off. In your, our everyday lives, we spend so much time like this, you know, like, with our phones.

• 35:55Lewis Howes?

  Swung over, yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  And that is really bad. At first, it's bad for us, just our posture, and it's creating this sort of fixed thoracic stoop.

• 36:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  But people, you know, physiotherapists used to only see in, like, elderly people, and now they're seeing it in, like, 15-year-old boys, um, from, you know, gaming, things like that. And that's something, like, you can't just be like, "Oh, I'm gonna sit up straight," you have to, like, work that out.

• 36:19Lewis Howes?

  For years, working it out, yeah, aligning your body, yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Totally. But, so, it's, it's, it's not only hurting our posture, but I, it, I, I believe that it is affecting our mood. And so, you know, find, you know, even just set up your workspace so that you can be more expansive.

• 36:35Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Um, but you, we neglect our body language when it's, when we're alone, because it's language. And if we're alone, we're not talking to anyone.

• 36:45Lewis Howes?

  We're talking to ourselves, though.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  But we're talking to ourselves, right? So, it's really important, I think, for us to be minding our posture. Also, the, there have been a couple of meta-analyses recently, which basically are just, you know, studies that look at, at all of the studies on a topic, and, and come up with a sort of, an average effect size. Like, they say, "Yes, this is effective, this is a real effect, um, and this is how big the effect is," right? So, studies that have looked at power, meta-analyses of power-posing studies show really clearly that it, it affects the way we feel. Like, so, so, you know, expansive-

• 37:23Lewis Howes?

  By shrinking our body.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  It's shrinking versus expanding.

• 37:26Lewis Howes?

  Affects the way, whether in a positive or-

• 37:28Speaker 01

  More expansive, more confident and power, more powerful psychologically, you know, shrinking, less powerful, less confident. But what's interesting is that there, there are two meta-analyses. One of them shows that, that more of the effect is driven by the difference between neutral and expansive. The other one shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between, you know, contractive and neutral. So, I'm not, I, we still-

• 38:00Speaker 01

  In short, there's evidence that that both of those things matter. But certainly, neutral is better than contracted.

• 38:06Lewis Howes?

  Shrinking, yeah, contracting.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 38:09Lewis Howes?

  And it's probably, you know, even if you were doing a meditative breathing technique, if you're closing your body off and breathing, you're still probably limiting yourself.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:18Lewis Howes?

  So you can be breathing and trying to relax the nervous system, but you're closing your body off, it's hard to feel like more alive and confident and calm, I'm assuming.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 38:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  It's funny, I once, this woman wrote to me, she said, um, I teach people public speaking, and I had this student who was really stressed out, this man, and so I got into power pose for a minute, and he said it made him feel worse.

• 38:42Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  And she said, but then, then I watched, we watched the video, she, I, she said, I videotaped him, and we watched the video, and I was like, were you breathing? He said, no, I didn't breathe, I held my breath the whole time.

• 38:54Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  He's like, well, that's all, not gonna work.

• 38:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're gonna pass out, you're gonna faint.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. So he had been like completely still in this power pose, and she, I mean, she was laughing about it, but yeah.

• 39:06Lewis Howes?

  How long, how long should we be in an expansive postural states for?

• 39:09Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, I, I really emphasized two minutes in the TED Talk, because that's what we had done in the, in those first studies. Um, I, I think actually, less is more. Like, we've gone out to five minutes. I think that, I think that it just gets awkward. It's, it's, it's that silly, like, you feel weird, but also, like, your body, you get sort of stiff, so I, you know, I just think it's, I don't even think you have to be still. I think you can be moving in an expansive way.

• 39:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  You know, I think there's, it's the whole, I, I, I sometimes wish that I hadn't called this power posing, because it was so, it's such a sticky idea, right? It's got alliteration, it's like, you know, exactly, exactly. Exactly, but, but at the same time, people got fixed on, on like, standing like Wonder Woman, or in the victory pose, and it's not, it's, being expansive is more expansive than, than this.

• 40:06Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's, in whatever way works for you.

• 40:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, the tighter you are, the probably less likely that you'll perform relaxed.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:14Lewis Howes?

  And, and football, training before games and in practices, they would always tell us to be loose, you know, to move our body, to be flexible, to be expansive, but in a loose state of mind, and a loose body, not like rigid, or you can't catch the ball, if you're like too tight. So it's how can you be expansive, confident, and relaxed at the same time?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:34Lewis Howes?

  Practicing that in life with the power poses, I think is great.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:38Lewis Howes?

  And tell us, she did a great, she was like, ah, right, it was like a monster pose or something.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  I think she was like.

• 40:44Lewis Howes?

  It's amazing, yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  This facial expression that I thought was great.

• 40:46Lewis Howes?

  She's a great actor as well.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  She said, I wonder if that was like, so, like, if they were like, just do a power pose, and she made it up.

• 40:53Lewis Howes?

  She probably did.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  I just feel like.

• 40:55Lewis Howes?

  She was great. She was great. When, um, was there ever a time where you didn't implement this strategy, and you realized, oh, I had, I couldn't, I should have done, I could have done better, had I done this, but I just thought I'd had it figured out?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Um, only, you know, it's, so I really love public speaking, and I, it doesn't, it's like my favorite professional thing to do.

• 41:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  It doesn't make me nervous.

• 41:20Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  So, for me, I think a lot of people assume that speaking is the thing that makes everyone nervous. So for me, it's not, it's not that.

• 41:29Lewis Howes?

  What makes you nervous?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Um, you know, interpersonal conflict, like, one-on-one, or, um, I get nervous in like smaller groups. I, I don't.

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  Isn't it interesting, like, five or 10 people, I feel the same way.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Talking to three people, I find much more stressful.

• 41:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Than talking to, you know, 3,000 people. Um, so, I don't like to sit in a room for a long time before I'm gonna get up and talk to people. I don't wanna sit there in a cold room, these rooms are often cold, and, you know, you're going like this, and you're totally sort of stiff, and then you get up and you're like, ooh. So I've, I had that experience enough times to learn, I need to be moving around, I need to be warm, not cold, and, uh, and come in sort of, you know, right before I get up to present, or to discuss. So yes, I've had the experience of being still, and kind of, you know, hunched up for too long.

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  We've, we've got the affirmations, we talked about self-affirmation, uh, affirming who you are, not just making up lies about yourself.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:36Lewis Howes?

  We've got, what's the actual technical term now, not power posing, it's?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  I don't, I mean, I call it. Postural. Postural feedback.

• 42:42Lewis Howes?

  Postural feedback.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  And I think the idea is just to keep in mind, your posture is, is sent, like, there is feedback.

• 42:48Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Um, to your nervous system, telling you, either you're, you know, I'm safe, or I'm not safe. That's, it's kind of that simple, like, you're safe or you're not safe.

• 42:58Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting, I learned a technique 11, 12 years ago, about 2009, when I got into the business world, and I started going to events and conferences and networking events. I remember feeling like, I'm a nobody, I'm this young kid who was just playing football, I still didn't have a college degree, I was 24, uh, and going into a room with all these professionals and executives, I was like, why would anyone talk to me? Kind of had this feeling early on.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:23Lewis Howes?

  And I learned from someone, he said, every time you walk into a door, just act like you're trying to connect the top of your head to the door, and just walk in.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:32Lewis Howes?

  And stand, like, every time you see a door, at any time in your life, just practice you're walking, you're entering a room, just with your, you don't have to put your chest all the way out like crazy, but.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:41Lewis Howes?

  Shoulders back just a little bit, your head just a little bit taller, like you're trying to touch the top.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 43:45Lewis Howes?

  And just, and he said, walk in with a smile.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Lewis Howes?

  And every time I do that, I practice it just all the time now, it's like, it just makes you feel a little bit better, more courageous to actually say hi to someone. A smile, a little taller, your shoulders back, just a little bit.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:00Lewis Howes?

  It really helps with that. Um, so it's something that I learned early on that helped me kind of just gain courage.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Well, it's, you know, in, in ballet, it's, you know, it's very much like imagining that you.

• 44:10Lewis Howes?

  Like a string, right?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  But, and, but, another technique that I think works really well for me, that I learned in ballet, is, you're looking at the people in the balcony.

• 44:22Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  And, and that opens you up, right? And it also makes you more aware of, of this interaction, and there's also kind of magic and chemistry in the interaction, right? You're not alone.

• 44:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  And that, that, that's a whole other, not a whole other thing, but it's, you know, that, that, that ability to be present with people.

• 44:42Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Is, is like, um, it feeds on itself, right? Like, you become, the energy level picks up more and more, the more you can build that intimacy with the audience, and so by opening up to them, you're much more likely to create that intimacy.

• 44:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And so, okay, so we've got the self-affirmation, the self, we've got the postural feedback, if we can start implementing these strategies.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got another one.

• 45:05Lewis Howes?

  Give me another one.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  All right. Um, I love this one. So this was, uh, research done by, um, a woman named Alison Woodbrooks, who's at Harvard Business School, she's a professor, and she was like a wedding singer before she went to grad school.

• 45:20Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  And she just didn't get nervous, and she was really interested in stage fright, like, she was like, why, I know, it's kind of funny, she's like, this isn't hard for me, why is it hard for you, you know, but she's, she's very confident, but she was really interested in stage fright, and she realized.

• 45:35Lewis Howes?

  And learning why people have stage fright.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Right, and she's a very positive person, and I think that what happened, and I, I don't wanna like tell her story for her, but my understanding is basically that she realized that for her, the nerves, the, the, so basically, emotions have two dimensions, arousal level, like, is a higher arousal or a low arousal?

• 45:59Lewis Howes?

  And the fear, right?

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. And positive, negative.

• 46:02Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  I mean, there's more than that, but like, think of it, those are the two dimensions, and emotions can be clustered around those. So she realized that she was having the same high arousal, um, feeling in her body before she sang, but for her, she interpreted it as excitement, not anxiety.

• 46:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  And so, she realized that it's not that she really was having a totally different experience, it's just that she was like, I must be excited to do this.

• 46:30Lewis Howes?

  It's the interpretation.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Exactly, so she did experiments, um, she had people do singing contests using like, uh, what was the video game, Rockstar, was it Rockstar?

• 46:40Lewis Howes?

  Might have been Rockstar, yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  She had them do like debate competitions, I think they did a math test, maybe different studies, but she, she assigned them to say to themselves, before they did the, the thing, I am anxious, or I am excited. And the people who said I am excited, just said, I am excited, to myself, they did much better.

• 47:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  So she calls that reinterpreting anxiety as excitement. So reframe it, like, so before you go on, her name is Alison Woodbrooks, hyphenated.

• 47:12Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  And, yeah, so anxiety is, reframe anxiety as excitement, and this is definitely one of my favorites, and I think, um, I think that that, that helps a lot of people. The other one is.

• 47:28Lewis Howes?

  I love that, yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Kind of related a bit, is, is that a lot of times when we go into these stressful interpersonal situations, where we know we're being evaluated, and where the stakes feel high, so like a job interview, or, or giving a talk, or speaking in class, or teaching, whatever.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  It get the dread leads us also to interpret other people to see them as potential predators, as people who don't want us to do well.

• 47:59Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  And the thing is, mostly in life, people actually want other people to do well. Yes, there's schadenfreude. We sometimes like to see somebody fail, right?

• 48:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  But for the most part, people are there because they they want to learn something. They want they want you to do well. And so, you know, it's not comfortable to watch people not doing well. And so when I started teaching at Harvard, I'd been, you know, I taught at Kellogg for a couple of years. And that's an intense place. It's a great school. But there's something about Harvard Business School that has this reputation, you know, that the and so I got there and I was like, I don't know, 32 or something. And anyway, I was like mid 30s.

• 48:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Not that much older than the students, right?

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right. You're still like

• 48:49Speaker 01

  And

• 48:49Lewis Howes?

  You could look like you could be a student.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  You know, I'm not big and, you know, blonde, I'm a girl, all that stuff. So people were like, you cannot show weakness.

• 48:57Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Like, you cannot, a drop of blood in the water, the sharks will come in for the kill.

• 49:02Lewis Howes?

  That's bad, huh?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  So that was sort of, that's what I was told, right? And so I prepared like crazy for that first class.

• 49:08Lewis Howes?

  For these 18 year olds, you mean?

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Well, no, no, they're like 20, this is HBS, so they're like, they're like 28.

• 49:13Lewis Howes?

  Okay, got you.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  They're pretty smart. They're pretty accomplished.

• 49:16Lewis Howes?

  They've already accomplished stuff in their life and their, yeah.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I really prepared like crazy, but I realized that I was approaching it with this like as a warrior. And like, first of all, that's not who I am.

• 49:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  And second

• 49:30Lewis Howes?

  The roller skating warrior.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. The roller skating deadhead warrior, right? I I like people, you know? So like, why, why would I assume that they are looking for me to fail? That they're like sniffing blood? That doesn't make sense. They paid a lot of money to go here. They worked like crazy to get in here. They want to have a good experience, not a bad experience. So I decided to go in with blind trust, like blindly trusting them. And not try to sort of fake this, you know, badass, you know, personality that isn't who I am. Instead, to go in and be who I am, assume they want me to do well.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  And so I went in the first day and I said to them, here's what I've done. Here's what I love doing. You know, I've not done this before. And I'm a little nervous about this, but I think that we are all in this together. And I think we want to have a good experience. So just kind of letting you know where I am. And I feel, I'm I'm in touch with so many of the students from that year, that that first year, I think.

• 50:36Lewis Howes?

  Was this pre-TED Talk?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like a year or two before, a couple, three years maybe before my TED Talk. And that really taught me that if I trust them, they give it back to me, right? You build trust. So I go in with blind trust. I mean, if you think about like in life, you can either in these situations, trust or not trust. Like which which mistake would you rather be make? Would you rather trust and be and be wrong or not trust and be wrong? Like, I'd rather trust and be wrong.

• 51:09Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Usually it's not that dangerous. I mean, there are some situations where you probably shouldn't trust. But I'm talking about just like average situations. Why not just trust and occasionally you'll be wrong and somebody actually is

• 51:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Right?

• 51:22Lewis Howes?

  They humiliate you or they are

• 51:24Speaker 01

  But it's

• 51:25Lewis Howes?

  But you move on.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Totally. But if you go in and you don't trust anybody, nothing good comes of that. If they're if they're trustworthy, you're not going to build a relationship with them. If they're untrustworthy, you're not going to build a relationship with them anyway. I would just rather make the that the error of over trusting than under trusting.

• 51:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now let's get back to the conversation. What did you learn from that first year of teaching at the Crazy Shark?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  First of all, they're not, they're they're people just like everybody else. Like they've got insecurities too. And and, you know, like 75 to 85% of HBS students at some time feel imposter syndrome. Like they're insecure as well. Like, I mean, I don't, they're no more insecure, but they've got the same stuff that they're dealing with. And, you know, there are a lot of like really wonderful people in there. And the more they, the more you give them trust and get it back, the more they're building trust with each other. So I I I just learned to go into every audience and assume that they want me to do well.

• 52:51Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  And that of all the things, it's funny because my my son, you know, he gets performance anxiety, like probably every musician. And it's funny because people aren't like, are always like, can't you, like, this is your thing. I mean, to me, they're like, how does your son have any performance? Like, well, he's human, but also I'm his mom, right?

• 53:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  So it's not easy to learn this stuff from your mom.

• 53:15Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Um, but that's the one that works the best for him. I said, why, why would you go in to a performance situation, a musical performance situation, and assume they want you to fail? They don't want you to fail. They want to see you do well.

• 53:28Lewis Howes?

  They want to be there. They want to be there.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  They really want to be there, right? Exactly. So he says that's the one that helps him the most.

• 53:33Lewis Howes?

  And just having that thought in your mind before you enter that, they want the best for me. They want to have a good time.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:38Lewis Howes?

  Something I was nervous for a long time with public speaking. And I did, I did a social challenge for myself where every week I went to Toastmasters.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:46Lewis Howes?

  And the first week I wrote out word for word my five minute speech, which is called an icebreaker. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Toastmasters or if you've been before. And I remember saying to myself, I prepared for two weeks for a five minute speech. It was so terrified.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:01Lewis Howes?

  Again, I was 24, going in to a room of really great speakers who were all much older than me, executives, you know, professional speakers. And I chose that one. I went to five different Toastmasters clubs in Columbus, Ohio. And I chose that one because it was the scariest for me.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Ah, that's

• 54:21Lewis Howes?

  And I was like, I don't want to go to the easy place. I want to go to a place that's going to really like challenge me. And it terrified me. I remember I wrote it out word for word and I practiced it for a couple of weeks. And I could not look up the first time. I had to stay here, like looking here word for word and dripping sweat, just humiliated and embarrassed. But luckily, they're there to give you positive feedback. There's not a bad crowd.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Right, they are. That's true.

• 54:44Lewis Howes?

  It's not like I'm putting myself in front of, you know, critics that are really going to make me feel bad. They're there to say, you know, here's what you did well. Here's what you can do better next time. But I did that for a year until I felt like I had the confidence and I could go out and get paid to do it. And for years, I would go speak in front of big audiences and get paid well, but I still had a little bit of nerves. And I was like, why have I not gotten rid of this? And I called one of my coaches, this was probably like five years ago. I called one of my coaches and I said, I don't know why I'm still nervous before these events. I've been doing this for so long, I shouldn't be, now I'm beating myself up. I shouldn't be nervous now. And he said, the reason you're nervous is because you're still worried about what people think about you. You're still thinking of you, like making sure you remember that joke

• 55:28Lewis Howes?

  or make sure you're funny here or you don't mess up. Or what if I forget this thing? You're thinking about

• 55:33Speaker 01

  That's that's the the distraction, right?

• 55:35Lewis Howes?

  And he was like, if you just put your attentions, attention on how can I be of service, knowing I'm not going to be perfect? How can I help and add value and entertain or educate, knowing I'm going to forget a joke? Or knowing that the pause isn't going to be there, or knowing that I'm going to stutter? Just let it go and just be of be of service. And when I came from that place, I was like, I'm just going to serve. And I know I'm not going to be perfect.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 55:58Lewis Howes?

  And that has helped me let go of those nerves. I still feel like, you know, the excitement feeling.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:05Lewis Howes?

  But it's more like, okay, every time I feel like I'm nervous or anxious, this is all about service.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:10Lewis Howes?

  And my friend Rory Vaden says it's hard to be nervous when your heart's on service.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  That's so true. I love that.

• 56:16Lewis Howes?

  Give your heart to the audience, you know?

• 56:18Speaker 01

  That's the sort of, I mean, it's very related to this trust piece, right? Like they they want to get something out of this.

• 56:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  That made me think of two things. What, uh, one was that I I once asked the the person at HBS, who I thought was like the best teacher. I said to her, when did she, when did you realize that you, um, like that you were it's clear that she knows she's really good at this, right? Like, how, when did you realize that? And she said, I went from being a good teacher to a great teacher. The moment that I stopped thinking about what they were thinking of me and started just thinking about what they were thinking.

• 56:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Right? So I cared about what they, what, what, like, I I started watching their faces. Were they confused about something that I said? Like, like, so it wasn't about me, it was about the content.

• 57:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  And helping them to learn.

• 57:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  And I thought that was really good. You know, stop thinking about what they're thinking of you and start thinking about what they're thinking.

• 57:17Lewis Howes?

  Why is that so hard for us to do in general?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it's back to that social rejection piece. Like, because we're environmentally like, sorry, evolutionarily attuned to looking for signals that we're going to get kicked out.

• 57:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  And I I don't know why we're still like that, you know? And I don't know of a culture where people aren't like that, you know? It's not like I can think of a society where people aren't, don't have that happening.

• 57:41Lewis Howes?

  So that was one thing you said you were going to say. Do you remember the second?

• 57:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:45Lewis Howes?

  That was a great example.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I did remember, actually. It's that people love, okay, so the best performances are performances that have never happened before and will never happen again. So in front of a live audience, like when you go see a show, part of why I love the Dead, the Grateful Dead, the Dead and Company, is because they have never played the same show twice. Like every single show, thousands of shows, is completely different. They've never played the same setlist for the entire setlist twice.

• 58:17Lewis Howes?

  They always change it.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Never, yes.

• 58:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And Might be one song different and replaced, but they're always

• 58:23Speaker 01

  No, no, it's really mixed up. Like it's really changed. And there are all these jams in between. So I mean, there are just no two shows that are even close to being identical.

• 58:30Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  And that's part of what people love about it. They don't, yes, sometimes, sometimes they forget the lyrics. For them, because they've got like, you know, 500 songs in their catalog, right? So, but nobody cares. In fact, like last year, I mean, sorry, last night at Chula Vista, Bob Weir forgot the lyrics.

• 58:48Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  It just like for a minute, and people loved it. The crowd like roared. They love that.

• 58:54Lewis Howes?

  They're cheering him on to remember it again.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's just like, you're real, you're here with us, you are being here with us. So I always say, give people an experience that has never happened before and that will never happen again. That doesn't mean you have to rewrite a completely new speech, but know that audience, know who they are. And don't be overscripted, you know? People want it to be a bit raw.

• 59:16Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  And, you know, they remember the performance where somebody, you know, dropped their Katari pick and had to pick and didn't have another one, or that's, it's like, I got to see that thing.

• 59:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, the mic went out and you had to scream or whatever.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 59:29Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  So I think that making mistakes actually is, is not only not bad, but it's, it makes you more human and relatable.

• 59:37Lewis Howes?

  More interesting.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  More interesting, right, and more memorable, for sure, more memorable.

• 59:43Lewis Howes?

  Identity came to my mind just now, and I'm curious about your research or just your personal findings on shaping our own identity with ourselves, shaping our identity, having an identity, and how that helps us, how that either helps us or hurts us with our confidence and our personal power.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there's so many different kinds of identities that we can have. I, I think that when we get, I mean, there's

• 1:00:10Lewis Howes?

  Like, is it important to have a specific type of identity? Is it important to have a wide range of identities, the things that we're into?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Tell me what kind of identity you're talking about.

• 1:00:19Lewis Howes?

  Like, an identity is, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a man from Ohio, I grew up in Ohio, I, you know, I love football, I, you know, I love park, you know, all these different things that are likes, interests, and that we identify as.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Well, I think that we, like, the self-affirmation stuff is all about values, and so your identity, like, your identity is your values, and that, I think, is, is great. Being true to your values is, is great. The values I'm talking about are not values that need to be flexible, they can be wide, right? But I think that when we get really identified with a certain group or interest, it can get dangerous. I mean, I think first we stop thinking for ourselves, and we start becoming much more, much more concerned about remaining part of the group than about

• 1:01:10Lewis Howes?

  Our values, our personal values.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Exactly, and so we compromise ourselves to be in the group. And, and I think that that can be really dangerous. Like, we're losing our sense of agency, for sure, but also, you know, might be doing things that are, are not, are not good.

• 1:01:26Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Like, not healthy for us or for other people. So that, that, I think, can be, I think we need to stay in check around, around identity in that way. Just because it's what most people in the group are doing, doesn't mean it's what I need to be doing.

• 1:01:40Lewis Howes?

  What is something we can do, I guess, to reflect on or give ourselves feedback on, on a, you know, yearly or monthly or daily basis that's, that supports that?

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  I think, I, I, and this is not empirical, I'm just, this is kind of off the cuff, but I've been thinking about this a little bit lately, like, you know, thinking about what are my identity groups that I chose? Like, what are the, what are my chosen identity groups? And, you know, are there things that have happened in those identity groups that I don't agree with, but I, where I didn't do anything to correct it, or I, I kind of let it slide? Like, how can I keep myself, how can I keep myself honest about these identity groups?

• 1:02:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  You know, so, so

• 1:02:24Lewis Howes?

  Because you may like, you may like the, you know, the Grateful Dead.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:28Lewis Howes?

  But there may be things that happen at the concerts that you don't acknowledge, you don't like, but

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:02:33Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to be, well, I'm never going to watch or support the Grateful Dead again because this happened.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:02:37Lewis Howes?

  But how can I make sure, yeah, I can enjoy a hobby and an interest, but not the, the identity of that thing.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  That's right, and, and, yeah, and so, so I think that, yeah, there are things that happen at, at, at shows that I, you know, haven't been liking lately. Like, you know, we talked about this a bit, like, people being very territorial in the front space, which is called the pit, you know, about their space, and being really nasty to each other, that kind of goes against, to me, the, the whole sort of essence of that community. And I get angry about it, like, you know, and I, part of it feels like righteous anger, like, I, I want you to not be that way, but I also need to check myself, like, I don't want to contribute to the anger either. But it also doesn't, like, because it's imperfect, doesn't mean that I have to leave it.

• 1:03:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Right? Because I get into the, I, I get into that trap sometimes. I, I sort of get into the like, oh, oh, there's something wrong, I probably shouldn't do this anymore. And I, I need to accept that nothing's perfect, and, and I'm still allowed to love imperfect things, as long as I'm checking myself.

• 1:03:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Does that make sense?

• 1:03:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it makes sense. No, it makes sense, yeah, yeah, for sure. There's the, we talked about this a little bit earlier, about the kind of fake it till you make it thing, but it's more of like facing it till you make it, I think is what, how you reframe it, right?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  I say fake it till you become it.

• 1:03:58Lewis Howes?

  Fake it till you become it?

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, because it's hard to, well, it's, what, you know, why is fake it till you make it harmful? If it's like, I'm gonna just keep faking and hopefully that'll happen.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  I think the problem, and it depends on how people interpret it, I realize, but the way I interpret fake it till you make it is kind of like, you know, sort of, you know, the, the slick salesperson who, like, really does not buy what they're selling, but they're gonna sell hard.

• 1:04:31Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  And, and never, and they're going to be faking, that they will, yeah, that making it might be, you know, being promoted or making a lot of money, but they're, they're, they're still faking it, right? You, you don't really ever, faking it till you make it means faking it, getting the promotion and continuing to fake it.

• 1:04:52Lewis Howes?

  Fake it, yeah.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Fake it till you become it, and it's, it's also about what you're conveying to other people. Faking it till you become it, the way that I think of this, is you're, you're tricking yourself into believing in yourself, right? You're tricking yourself into, you know, like, incrementally, be a little bit more courageous.

• 1:05:14Lewis Howes?

  Every time, yeah.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  And eventually you become the person that you are in your mind's eyes as your best self, right? So you're not becoming, you're basically, it's like, I kind of think of it visually, like, you know, you're this, you know, we're, we're not just shells, but think of yourself as a shell, and you're sort of half-full, you know, faking it till you become it is sort of filling that, filling that shell more and more and more.

• 1:05:42Lewis Howes?

  You're partially, you're partially, but you're not fully yet.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  You're getting there.

• 1:05:45Lewis Howes?

  Because imposter syndrome is, is a term that's been thrown around a lot in the last couple of years.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Lewis Howes?

  I'm hearing it all the time, everyone's saying, not everyone, but a lot of people are saying, I feel a sense of imposter syndrome, like I don't belong, or I'm not ready, or I don't have the, whatever.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:59Lewis Howes?

  For me, I have, I felt like I had nothing at the beginning, and I was just like, I'm just gonna throw myself in, and if it works, great, and if it doesn't, I have, I have nothing to embarrass myself because I had nothing. I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half, I had no money, I didn't have a college degree, so I was like, there's nowhere else I can go that's worse than where I'm at.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Lewis Howes?

  I didn't have anything to lose.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Lewis Howes?

  I was just like, I have nothing to lose, so I'm gonna throw myself in there and hopefully certain things happen. So I didn't feel like an imposter. I felt like, I'm an experience and I need to figure out how to gain experience, by learning skills, by finding mentors, by reading, by consuming content, and, and developing more confidence. But why has imposter syndrome been, become such a popular phrase? And is there a way to actually overcome it? Or are we always going to kind of feel like imposters if we're constantly growing? Because

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:54Lewis Howes?

  There's a new thing that next year I've never done and I'm going to try to do, that I am an imposter because I've never done it. So I'm going to feel a sense of, oh, well, I've never done this, so here we go, if I'm growing as an individual, right?

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Well, it's

• 1:07:04Lewis Howes?

  We should always feel it in a sense.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Definitely, so, I think, okay, to the, the question about, well, I don't know why it became, it, it's again, it's a catchy, it's a sticky, it's a sticky term to describe, and it experiences pretty, pretty universal. And so it, it became, it's funny, because it's, it's, to social psychologists, it's like a thing that's, we've talked about since the 1970s, not that I was talking much in the 1970s, but, but, you know, that it was coined in the 1970s, and it's so, in, in academia, it's something we talk about, but it really got sticky in the last, like, you know, I, I do think that, like, I, that I talk about in the TED Talk, I think that was part of it, I think there were some other books that came out that were talking about

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  it, and, and it, it just captures the experience so well, of feeling like an imposter in your own life, right? But the interesting thing is that, is, well, first, the woman who coined the term, Pauline Clance, who was teaching at Oberlin at the time, in the 70s.

• 1:08:03Lewis Howes?

  Really, in Ohio?

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ohio.

• 1:08:05Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, I'm feeling like it's your identity.

• 1:08:09Lewis Howes?

  My identity.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. She, well, first of all, she said She says that she wishes she had not called it a syndrome. Because a syndrome implies that it's pathological and rare, like it's unusual. And it's actually so not unusual.

• 1:08:29Lewis Howes?

  It's common.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  You know, there are different estimates, like 75 to 85% of people feel imposter syndrome. Also, women do not experience it more than men. Men are just less likely to openly talk about it. So when it's anonymous, which is a burden, I think.

• 1:08:45Lewis Howes?

  And then they hold on to it.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Because they think they're the only ones feeling it.

• 1:08:48Lewis Howes?

  Yes, they feel alone.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  And then women get the burden of being like, oh, you always feel like imposters, right? So it cuts both ways, in bad ways. But I don't think many people stop feeling it if they keep on trying new challenges. So in my book, I interviewed Neil Gaiman, the amazing author of, you know, many, many, many, many bestsellers and, you know, super award winner. And anyway, Neil really had that in mind. Part of why I interviewed Neil, he's a lovely human, but he's one of the only men who talked openly about having imposter syndrome. And so I wanted to talk to him for that reason.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Also, he has a way with words. But he said that in the beginning, when he first started writing and was successful, he kept being afraid that somebody was gonna come and tap him on the shoulder and be like, are you Neil Gaiman? And he'd say, yes, I am. Say, oh, sorry, you know, we made a mistake.

• 1:09:49Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  We're taking all this back. And then he said, he finally got to the point, he'd written American Gods, which was like his big novel, he said, like that was the big, grand novel. And he said, he thought he'd finally conquered imposter syndrome. And he spoke to one of his mentors and said, I think I finally conquered this. And he said, you never, I finally conquered writing a novel. And he said, you never conquer writing a novel, you just conquer writing the novel that you're writing. And so next time, so now a lot of his books have been turned into really wonderful television series. And he's a showrunner, right? And that was a whole new thing for him. So he said, it's just, it just pops up.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  You see it on your desk, you're like, oh, there's the imposter. And he'll go away. And so you keep, you experience it every time you start something new. It just goes away faster. You don't, you don't get hung up on it. You don't become anxious about the imposter feeling.

• 1:10:53Lewis Howes?

  And I think the more you're living your life and creating and building, if you can start to reflect on like, look at all the times I was feeling imposter syndrome and look what I was able to create.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:04Lewis Howes?

  And the results I got and the success or the impact that I had from making this thing or creating this thing, I can do it again.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:11:11Lewis Howes?

  It's like looking backwards to see the results.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Right, so you have this transferable sense of agency.

• 1:11:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Like self-efficacy is, I mean, the way it's defined in psychology is like, it's your feel, you know, it's your belief that you're able to do this certain thing. Agency is wider than that. And this feeling of being agentic, like, and I think that when you conquer imposter syndrome again and again, that feeling does become transferable.

• 1:11:38Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Right, and you're like, this is a totally new thing, but like, I've never been part of this rodeo, but I think I'm gonna be okay.

• 1:11:46Lewis Howes?

  Right, yeah, exactly. You just know, okay, I've done this before many times, I can do it again.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  And if not, I'll be okay.

• 1:11:52Lewis Howes?

  I'll be all right.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  I'll survive. Right, exactly.

• 1:11:57Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, I'm a big believer that self-doubt is the killer of dreams. I think when we doubt ourselves, we're not breathing correctly, we're shrinking, we're not taking any actions, we don't have the courage because we're just constantly in self-doubt. Do you think we can ever have too much self-belief?

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, geez, that's a tricky question. First, I think what you call self-doubt, I think of as personal powerlessness.

• 1:12:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  And what happens is that it activates what we call the behavioral inhibition system. So it leads us to, you know, be more pessimistic, to be more fearful, to think more narrowly, less creatively, to not take risks, to see people as predators, right? It inhibits us in every way. Even physically, like we can tolerate less pain when the inhibition system is activated.

• 1:12:52Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, really.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Feeling personally powerful activates the behavioral approach system, which does all of the opposites. It's like, instead of seeing a challenge as a threat, we see it as an opportunity.

• 1:13:02Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Instead of seeing other people as potential predators, we see them as potential allies and collaborators. You know, we feel optimistic instead of pessimistic. Now, you could, you can get to the point of feeling too powerful.

• 1:13:16Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, in that case, I think that one of the things that, what we know, that one of the things that happens is that people, they're not as good at taking other people's perspectives. So they're not as good at perspective-taking when they become really, like, and this is a lot about social power. So when people have both social power and personal power, they're not as good at taking other people's perspectives because they're...

• 1:13:44Lewis Howes?

  I mean, their feedback or their information or their ideas or...

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Just understanding what other people are like.

• 1:13:48Lewis Howes?

  Or feeling.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Honestly, it's really more about social power.

• 1:13:52Lewis Howes?

  Got it.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  As people gain social power, they're less dependent on others. And so that, when you're, when you have not much social power, when you're at the bottom of the hierarchy, you really need to be able to read other people's minds. Like, you really need to understand what they're thinking because you're dependent on them. And as you gain more power, you're less dependent. And so you're more likely to stereotype people. You're more, you're less likely to be able to take their perspective. You just kind of forget what it feels like to be where they are.

• 1:14:22Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  And so I think that's, that's a problem.

• 1:14:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  You know, I think, you know, there's a lot of research on overconfidence versus confidence. And overconfidence is, I don't even really fully understand like where it comes from. And I don't, I, to me, I don't think it is overconfidence. I think it's a different thing altogether.

• 1:14:47Lewis Howes?

  It's like ego.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Yes, or like arrogance, you know? And overconfidence, or arrogance, is often coming from a place of feeling threatened and defensive. And it's a smokescreen for insecurity, right? So yeah, I say it's a smokescreen for insecurity. And it's a, it's a way of deflecting. It's a way of preventing people from challenging you. Because, because honestly, they don't find you pleasant. They don't challenge you because they don't like you, not because they believe you, right? So, you know, I always say confidence, not arrogance. Confidence allows, allows room to be wrong. So you can, you can hear people.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  When you're confident, self-affirmed, you know who you are, you're able to hear feedback. You know, you don't feel like you have to steal the microphone all the time.

• 1:15:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, confidence plus curiosity. It's like being willing to be, okay, I feel confident, but also I might have a beginner's mind.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  Totally, and if you're confident and you're excited about an idea, you should want that to be as good as it can be. And so, you know, if you're around people who are offering you good feedback, confidence allows you to hear the feedback, which I think is really interesting. Like, so I love watching Shark Tank.

• 1:16:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  I love reading the body language. Jonah, my son and I used to watch this, like, when he was younger. He loves reading the body language and guessing who's gonna do well. And, and I know you've talked to people about like the body language of lying. It is so fascinating. I think like this body language of arrogance is, is really...

• 1:16:22Lewis Howes?

  You can read it, you can feel it.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's also, you know, body language is also non-verbal vocal cues, like a certain way of speaking and, but it's like, it's when they don't buy what they're selling. If you don't buy what you're selling, nobody's gonna buy what you're selling. You know, if you don't believe your story, nobody's gonna believe your story. Not at least in the long run.

• 1:16:43Lewis Howes?

  How do you learn to buy what you're selling?

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, when people say, well, how do I, how do I sell something that I don't believe in? I say, don't.

• 1:16:51Lewis Howes?

  Don't sell it.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  You shouldn't be doing it.

• 1:16:53Lewis Howes?

  Go find a different vision, yeah.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  I mean, you can try, but I don't think you should. You, you need to check in with yourself about that. Like, you know, the whole, like, for, okay, there are different reasons why we don't buy what we're selling. You could not buy what you're selling because you're actually self-doubt. You doubt your ability to sell anything.

• 1:17:12Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Right, and that's different.

• 1:17:14Lewis Howes?

  Than the product or the vision you have.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Right, or you, you're, it's just not interesting to you. It's not something that you would use. But it's not that you think there's anything wrong with it. So there are a number of reasons that you can fix, right? You can, you can learn to understand, well, this product, you know, really is helpful and valuable to these other people. And I, I need to understand their perspective, right? That's, that, that makes you a more effective, you know, salesperson.

• 1:17:42Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  But there are also reasons that should lead you to go, I shouldn't be selling it.

• 1:17:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  So you need to figure out, like, is it because I don't, I don't relate to it? Or I don't believe in myself? Or is it because there's something wrong with this thing?

• 1:17:56Lewis Howes?

  Who are the people on Shark Tank that you see after their one or two minute pitch where you're like, they're gonna get someone interested? You know, if the numbers line up and everything works out, just based on their body language, their belief, what do they have in common where you're like, yes, I would invest in them?

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  There is, well-

• 1:18:13Lewis Howes?

  Or I like them, you know?

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  Okay, there, there are three kind of characteristics. The one, the first is that they believe, they just, you feel that they believe their story. That they just so deeply buy what they're selling. They really care about this.

• 1:18:27Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  And it's with their body language. Sometimes they say it, and I'm not sure that helps. When they like say like, I mean, and I, I don't think they're necessarily lying when they say it. Saying it isn't, it's, you can just feel it. They convey it with their body language.

• 1:18:43Lewis Howes?

  Their energy, their postural feedback, everything.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Right. There, there's also, they're confident and not arrogant.

• 1:18:49Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  And so they are open to feedback.

• 1:18:52Lewis Howes?

  They're not like, this is the greatest thing in the world.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Completely, like, the arrogance is just, it, it just kills the, it kills the whole, the, all the energy. No, why would a shark want to invest if you're clearly not open to feedback? If you think you have all the answers-

• 1:19:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  And if you start conveying that right away, you're out.

• 1:19:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, why are you here in the first place?

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Right. So you have to buy what you're selling and convey that. You, you have to, you have to be confident and not arrogant.

• 1:19:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  And, and that is, like I said, you, you show your confidence through your openness, your willingness to be open. It's not insecurity. It's not like, oh, I mean, if you don't, if you don't know the numbers, you're out. You do need to know the numbers. You need to know certain things. But you can't know everything. That's why you're there.

• 1:19:36Lewis Howes?

  Right, because you need support.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Totally. And the last thing is that their, their, their verbal and nonverbal language is synchronized. So what they're conveying with their words, the feelings they're conveying with their words, match the feelings they're conveying with their body language. And, you know, if you see somebody like, trying to, you know, demonstrate like, deep care in an issue, but their body language just doesn't line up with it.

• 1:20:05Lewis Howes?

  They're crossing their arms, they're turned aside, or whatever, yeah.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, or, or, or if they're trying to convey, I don't know, like, you know, confidence, but they're showing fear. That when we, when we are, you know, fully present and just, you know, in, in it, that stuff becomes synchronized. We're not scripting our body language. We're bad at scripting our body language. We're best at scripting our words, second best at scripting our facial expressions-ish. But below the neck, we forget about it all. Like, you know, like, people don't know what to do with their hands, for example, right? There's like, I don't know what- There used, there was a 30 Rock episode about this.

• 1:20:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  About not knowing what to do.

• 1:20:48Lewis Howes?

  Will Ferrell is just like, he's like in the-

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  I can't remember, I just remember there were so many, yeah, there was a whole episode about not being able, not knowing what to do with your hands. But, and people really don't pay attention to what they're doing with their feet and their legs. Like, I don't know if you-

• 1:21:01Lewis Howes?

  How important is body language with the feet and the hands when building trust and confidence with others?

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  It's funny, have, have you ever had Joe Navarro on?

• 1:21:09Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  Do you know who he is? Former FBI agent?

• 1:21:12Lewis Howes?

  I want to have him on, yes.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  You should, he's great, he's such a character. I love Joe, he's a great guy also. But he, he has many body language books, but one of them is called What Everybody Is Saying. Which I love, it's clever. And, you know, he really gets into the nitty gritty. But he says one of the things as an FBI agent, I think he did like counterintelligence, was, was to pay attention to people's feet. Like, so if they, if you're questioning, and I'm not saying that this is, and I, I don't know what the, what the-

• 1:21:46Lewis Howes?

  Actual stats and fact, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  But that, like, if somebody looks like, if their feet are turned away from you, and they, like, they want to run, he's paying attention to that. So he, like, if they're, but it's more if their feet are turned toward you, and they don't seem afraid, he's more likely to believe them. Right, like, if they, if they-

• 1:22:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Right, if, but if their feet, that's the asynchrony.

• 1:22:10Lewis Howes?

  Hey, I'm here, open body position, yeah.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  Exactly, and their feet are, so yeah, he thinks the feet are really important.

• 1:22:17Lewis Howes?

  More than the hands?

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Um, well, only because, only because people are so unaware of what they're doing with their feet. So it's not that necessarily-

• 1:22:25Lewis Howes?

  You can hide your hands, you can put them in your pocket, yeah.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. They're just not thinking at all that my feet are gonna give me away. Just kind of interesting. But yeah, but also I think there's really a, a lot of evidence that, that, you know, that feet, you, being grounded is, is really important to how you feel, right? So like, you know, walking around, if you're speaking or something, I know this is, like, I'm kind of switching a bit here, but feet can really help you feel better. You know, not, like, sometimes people will stand with their ankles crossed, or not totally balanced. Like, make sure that your feet, you feel that you're grounded, and you feel that string, right?

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  I have a friend named Rachel Kossar, who used to be a professional ballet dancer, and a rhythmic gymnast, and she does body language training now. And she's really into the, that feeling of being grounded, and how much that helps you. Like, yes, you're connected to the ceiling, but you're also safe. You're, you're connected to the floor.

• 1:23:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Like, you're not gonna fall through it. There's no trapdoor. You know, allow yourself to find energy in that feeling grounded.

• 1:23:36Lewis Howes?

  It's fascinating how, how many psychologists talk about body language, and the power of body language to just improve the quality of your life. I know Jordan Peterson, I think in his book, 12 Rules for Life, I think one of the first rules is-

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Sit up straight.

• 1:23:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, put your back straight.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've heard, yeah.

• 1:23:50Lewis Howes?

  Put your back up straight. It's like, the rule of life.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  That's the whole just-

• 1:23:53Lewis Howes?

  Put your shoulders back.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Neutral posture, right?

• 1:23:55Lewis Howes?

  Right? It's just like-

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  The funny thing about that is-

• 1:23:57Lewis Howes?

  You'll have more confidence, you'll, you'll get more opportunities, people will like you more, it's like-

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I think that, like, the, the, the funny thing about sit up straight is that, you know, a lot of us heard it as kids, from grandparents.

• 1:24:10Lewis Howes?

  We resented it, right?

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  But also, I think part of it was because we were told to do it out of, to show respect to others. And, and the thing is, it's actually more about showing respect to yourself. Like, be selfish, you like that one?

• 1:24:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's good.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sit up straight to respect yourself. And if you respect yourself, you're more likely to be able to respect others. You know, it's, it's, you have to feel good about yourself to be able to treat others with sort of generosity and respect.

• 1:24:41Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  So I think if we tell kids, well, you know, if you sit up straight, you know, you're gonna feel better about yourself, they're more likely to be open to that.

• 1:24:51Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna feel more confident, you're gonna love yourself more, you're gonna feel happier. You're gonna have more to offer others as well.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:57Lewis Howes?

  When you respect yourself, like you said, you're gonna have more generosity, hopefully.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:25:01Lewis Howes?

  Or more, more full.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  So the whole, like, sit up straight, you're being rude. If you don't sit up straight, you know, kids are like, well, then I'm just gonna be rude.

• 1:25:08Lewis Howes?

  It's so funny because, you know, the, the, our parents' story of make your bed in the morning, you know, was something that I-

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:16Lewis Howes?

  I never did, until I actually went to a, a boarding school that was kind of similar. They, they graded you every morning in the dorm.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Oh, geez.

• 1:25:25Lewis Howes?

  To make the bed at 6:30. It wasn't military, but it was like, just a strict kind of boarding school with rules and, you know, dress code and all that stuff. And I remember just like, after that, when I went to college, I was like, I'm just gonna, you know, wake up and let the bed be messy.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:40Lewis Howes?

  And then when I got to, I think it was like in my late twenties, I was like, I just don't feel good when I come back and look at a messy space. Let me try this out. Let me just start making my bed every morning and just spending two minutes, even though it's kind of a hassle, like, let me do this, so I can come back and just feel at peace in my, my resting space.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Lewis Howes?

  Not messy.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Lewis Howes?

  And I'm like, I wish I would've wrote the book Make Your Bed, because that came out like five years later, and became like this massive speech and phenomenon. And I was like-

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:26:07Lewis Howes?

  What our moms told us growing up, you know, for me, I was like, this has gotta be a routine. Every time I don't make the bed, I feel like I have a sloppier day.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:15Lewis Howes?

  I feel less productive, I feel less proud, because I disrespected my sleeping space.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Yes, there's little routines like that really help. I mean, I mean, that's the, the whole thing about being sort of neat, is, is that it's self-respecting, right? And I mean, it also, I know there's, yes, it clears your mind, right? To not have to worry about clutter. But I think the self-respect piece is a big part of it. Although for me, I was like a, I was like, uh, an OCD bedmaker as a kid.

• 1:26:45Lewis Howes?

  Oh, so you were like.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  It wasn't good. Like, people couldn't, if somebody sat on it, I'd be like.

• 1:26:50Lewis Howes?

  Cleaning it?

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was weird. I had, you know, a lot of kids have, can go through OCD periods and not have it as an adult, but I definitely had some weird.

• 1:26:59Lewis Howes?

  You still have it as an adult?

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:00Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:01Lewis Howes?

  You can hug people, you can be messy.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Sadly, I don't with the bedmaking.

• 1:27:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, now you're messy bed, yeah, but.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's funny, because to me, you know, being a grown up is about having freedom, you know.

• 1:27:14Lewis Howes?

  You know, I want to do what I want to do now.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's like, I have a lot of flexibility right now.

• 1:27:18Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  And my son, like, called me the other day, it's like 10 o'clock, and he's like, are you still in bed? And he's, I'm like, yep, and he's like, why? And I'm like, because I'm a grown up.

• 1:27:27Lewis Howes?

  Do I do what I want?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Lewis Howes?

  I can do what I want.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:27:30Lewis Howes?

  So funny. Yeah, I love that. I mean, it's more of like, just what are the routines that are going to help you be the optimized for that day? And that season of life.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:40Lewis Howes?

  There's certainly months where I'm like.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:27:42Lewis Howes?

  Okay, I'm just going to sleep in and I'm not going to do what I want to, you know, what I know I could do to be optimal performance. That's the season where I need right now, rest recovery season.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:27:51Lewis Howes?

  So it's, it's being okay with that as well, and not being so militant like every moment. I should think that's not helpful either.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Lewis Howes?

  You're too obsessed.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  No, for sure. Absolutely.

• 1:28:00Lewis Howes?

  Got to hit every routine all the time and every minute.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:28:03Lewis Howes?

  Wake up in the same, you know, that's a lot.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  They have to be your routines that work for you.

• 1:28:07Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  I was talking to a, a friend of mine who was a, an Olympic, an Olympic skier, and a national, national champion in, in women's downhill.

• 1:28:17Lewis Howes?

  Lindsey Vonn?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  No, but her name is Alex Wubbels, and she's a fascinating person, because she also, she had a second wave of fame. Um, I mean, she was pre downhill skiing, getting a lot of attention, right? So that was like 98 to 2002 was like her era.

• 1:28:37Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Um, her maiden name was Schaefer, so, anyway, but her married name is Alex Wubbels. She became famous, again, about five years ago, because she, she's now an emergency room nurse. And she was working at a hospital in Utah, the University of Utah. And a, there was a, there was a, an accident, a car accident, there was a patient, she specialized in burn victims. He was badly burned, he was unconscious, and a, a police officer wanted a blood sample from him to see if he was, he had alcohol in his system. By the way, it turned out he did not, and it was, the other person was drunk, but really not the point.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  The point was that you cannot take a blood sample unless you have, um, a, a warrant, or verbal permission.

• 1:29:31Lewis Howes?

  Got you.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  And he, he.

• 1:29:32Lewis Howes?

  He was unconscious.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Right, so he couldn't give verbal permission, and they did not have the authority to do it. And she was defending this man, and, and, um, it, nobody else really was. I mean, they, they weren't, they were, they were kind of being bystanders, and she was doing exactly by the books what she was supposed to be doing. Her voice is shaking, she's clearly really scared and not getting support.

• 1:29:59Lewis Howes?

  On video or something?

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, it's all on video. And this police officer, eventually, um, he's just, this is, this is not a statement about police officers. This is just an agitated guy, okay?

• 1:30:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  And who was just like, I'm gonna get this blood sample.

• 1:30:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  He throws her against the wall and handcuffs her.

• 1:30:17Lewis Howes?

  Oh my god.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  And throws her into his cruiser, and arrests her. And she's screaming, it's like 90 degrees outside the, it's, it's a, it's a really upsetting scene.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  And she absolutely did the right thing. So she became, you know, known as, people, as a super brave person, and who, what she is. And I knew I wanted to interview her for my next book. And, but I didn't know her. I'm giving a talk at the Association of Critical Care Nurses. It's like 10,000 people, it was, it happened to be in Boston, and I did, I think, the longest book signing line of my life. Um, nurses really relate to this material, I think.

• 1:30:59Lewis Howes?

  Grey's Anatomy has been on there five times, so they watch this.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  I think that, like, there's a lot of power stuff going on in healthcare, it's, it's tough. And they're exhausted, and anyway, I did the signing line, and there's one, and I, I was really tired. I, I love signing lines, I love talking to people, but I was like exhausted.

• 1:31:17Lewis Howes?

  After five hours, you're like, okay.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  It was, it was a few hours, and I, I, um, there was one last person, and, and she was with a man. And the man walks over, and as she approaches, I see who it is. And he says, um, I don't know if you know who this is, and I just like.

• 1:31:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow, you're already tired, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  She's crying, like, I knew exactly who it was, we embraced, I mean, we just like, held on to each other. And she's like, you mean so much to me, like, you've helped, your work has helped me so much. And I'm like, I am such, you know, I'm such a fan of, of you, and I wanted to reach out to you. Anyway, it was Alex Wubbels. I did not know at the time that she is, she was a, an incredibly good skier, you know, and national champion many times. And I, I love skiing.

• 1:32:08Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 1:32:09Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  What's interesting is that she's a physically brave and socially brave person. Like, to ski like that, also, she's like the nicest person on earth. Like, she gave us, she would give us ski lessons and be like, well, what do you want to achieve today? Like, just for fun, you know, and, like, my husband wanted to get, be able to get his hips on the ground, you know? And she's like, we're gonna make that happen. And by the end of the day, and, but she, like, she cheers, you know, she's cheering for you, she's a great person. But I said, what is, like, what are the similarities? Um, you know, physically, like, you know, going down the mountain, you know, 70 miles per hour, and being brave in that situation? And she said, for her, it's about like following her own kind of rulebook.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  She said, the best skiers are not skiers who, who have like a one size, like, take a one size fits all approach. Like, you know, um, you know, Lindsey Vonn, you know, she, she likes fashion, she likes style, like. And people were really critical of that.

• 1:33:07Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  And, and it's like, she's got to be able to be who she is to be the best at what she does. Like, why are you bothered that she likes to wear makeup and, and, you know, have nice clothing? Why, why does that bother people? The more she was able to be who she was, the better a skier she was. And Alex said it was the same for her. The more she was able to do it her way, and, and she had a coach who recognized that, like, she could not, she needed an off day before, before, um, races. And he, he was like, okay, I'm not gonna force you to race, like, I realize that for you, you're gonna perform better if you can do it that way.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  The bravery thing, but there is, there's this, this, she said, for me in that moment, I knew that, like, I could not live with myself if I did not. Like, this was just the right thing to do.

• 1:33:58Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  And, and I had no, she said, there was no question that I was gonna do this. And, and she said, I was following my rulebook. She said, to me, that's what's important. I knew that, that justice was important, justice in this sense of, you know, protecting this man's, you know, sort of freedom. And his rights. And she said, I, um, I, I just knew that, and I knew when I was skiing that I had to do it my way. And that allowed me to be, you know, brave and perform at my best. So I think that, that's really important, you got to figure out, like, what are your, again, it's back to, like, what are your values? Like, and how can you be true to them? But she's just, yeah, she's pretty.

• 1:34:38Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  Wonderful.

• 1:34:41Lewis Howes?

  I feel like I could talk to you for another few hours.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:34:43Lewis Howes?

  But I want to, I want to bring us home here, and I'm going to have you back on when the book comes out.

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:34:48Lewis Howes?

  And have you on for another long session, where we're both recovered from surgery and, yes.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  Gone, for sure.

• 1:34:56Lewis Howes?

  Um, but I feel like, actually, the pain has been going away throughout this.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:35:02Lewis Howes?

  I feel like, early in the day, the pain was heightening, but with you, I feel like, I've just been so excited about learning this. That this, this information's been so powerful, I've got so many notes here.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 1:35:12Lewis Howes?

  Uh, so I'm just excited to go back through all this stuff. This is a, before I ask the final couple of questions, again, I want to thank you, Amy, for being here, this is.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 1:35:21Lewis Howes?

  Really inspiring.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Thanks for making this work.

• 1:35:23Lewis Howes?

  Heard so many great things about you from all mutual friends over the years.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Likewise, yes.

• 1:35:26Lewis Howes?

  I'm glad we were going to make this work. How can we, before I ask the final questions, how can we be of support to you right now? What's the thing that we could do to?

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:35:36Lewis Howes?

  Is there somewhere we can go on your? What social media are you most active on? Your website? Can we opt in for your newsletter? Can we get your books? Is there speaking to what you're doing? What can we do?

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Follow me on social media. I'm on LinkedIn for sure.

• 1:35:49Lewis Howes?

  Is that your main place?

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  It's funny, I have the most followers on LinkedIn. And I don't post that often because I want to post like really good, like sort of longer, high-quality content on there. Twitter, Instagram, you know? Keep up with me on social media.

• 1:36:05Lewis Howes?

  Amy Cuddy, everywhere, right?

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  And, yeah. And, you know, for me, it's just like sort of be brave. That would make me really happy. And it's okay if you say like, you know,

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  you tag me when you do it. Like, I want to see it happening. But, you know, when you see, for example, somebody being bullied on social media, the way to handle that is not to attack the person attacking them. It's say something nice about them in the comments. Like, support them. It could be totally unrelated. Just say, you know, say you see something, somebody being, you know, trolled or whatever, and there's a pile on because that looks like the norm. So more and more people are doing it. Change the norm by being nice. Say, "Hey, so-and-so, you know, I really liked that thing you shared last week, and this is how it helped me." And it's amazing. What you'll see is more and more people will start being positive.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  That's a way of being brave. Like, be the one to make the first positive comment to turn things around.

• 1:37:10Lewis Howes?

  I love that.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  That would make me feel supported.

• 1:37:12Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool. Yeah, so if you're on Instagram, make sure to share this and tag Amy. Again, Amy Cuddy over on Instagram. Tag her that you're watching this or listening to this over on YouTube. Leave a comment below. Leave something positive about this. The thing that you enjoyed the most about this over on YouTube as well.

• 1:37:32Lewis Howes?

  Okay, there's a question that I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three truths question.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:37:38Lewis Howes?

  So it's a hypothetical question.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:37:41Lewis Howes?

  Imagine many years away, it's your last day on this earth. You've lived as long as you want to live, and you've accomplished all the dreams, and you have the life you want. But for whatever reason, everything you've ever created, your written word, this video content, has to go somewhere else. It's not on this earth anymore.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:37:58Lewis Howes?

  So it goes when you go.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:38:01Lewis Howes?

  Hypothetical. And the only thing you get to leave behind are three truths. Three lessons that you learned that you would share with the world. What would you say would be those three truths for you?

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:38:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes, off the cuff.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, this is really hard. The whole haters gonna hate philosophy, like the idea that people are just, they're just bad people, and people are just gonna be bad. Don't buy into that. Just keep trying. The only thing that makes that absolutely true is if we believe it's absolutely true. You know, so keep trying to be a better person, to model better behavior, to be optimistic about people, to have grace.

• 1:38:47Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  That's the, I think that's the most important one.

• 1:38:49Lewis Howes?

  Okay, that's number one.

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  The second is, you know, you know, I'm gonna quote Maya Angelou. Stand up straight and realize who you are, that you tower over your circumstances. So that is, again, Maya Angelou, not me, but I love what it captures, which is carry yourself with a sense of pride and, you know, and self-respect. And you will become more self-respecting, and you will treat others better.

• 1:39:19Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  That's the second.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  The third, I think, is like we just leave room for people to be weird. Like, you know what? Let people let their freak flags fly. Like, don't put people in a box. Let people be different, like appreciate it. Just stop judging. Like, do your thing. Let your freak flag fly and let other people do the same thing. Like, if they're not hurting other people, you know, I just, like, give people space to be themselves.

• 1:39:52Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:39:53Lewis Howes?

  Those are powerful. I love those truths. Before I ask the final question, Amy, I want to acknowledge you for all that you've done. All the research, all the work, all the giving back to serve people and helping them gain confidence.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:07Lewis Howes?

  And improve the quality of their life. That's what my mission is with the School of Greatness, is to help people improve the quality of their life. And it's to bring people on like yourself that I've been inspired by for a long time to teach what you know. You have this information, this knowledge from deep research, practical experience, and teaching it to so many people that this audience could really use. So I'm grateful for your consistent dedication. I'm grateful for you being weird and starting to express that more on social media in the world and accepting that socially by posting the stuff that is unique to you, the things that you love, and reminding us that we need to continue to be unique to ourselves as well and be willing to share that.

• 1:40:51Lewis Howes?

  And acknowledge you for the generosity you have with so many people. Again, I have so many mutual friends that say you're an incredible giver, incredible, kind human being.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:41:02Lewis Howes?

  So I really acknowledge you for the impact you've made on my friends.

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:41:06Lewis Howes?

  And the person you've become. So hopefully, we can be friends after this and have you back on many times. And I want to see you continue to spread this message far and wide.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. What a pleasure.

• 1:41:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course. Final question is what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  I think greatness is,

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  it is a, I think people might think of it as sort of about being the most, sort of the best, the most competent. I think it's a combination of being, yes, your most sort of effective self, but also your most generous self. So greatness has to combine those two qualities, right? It's about, it's about being both generous and, you know, capable.

• 1:41:50Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you, and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally,

• 1:42:35Lewis Howes?

  as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.