Raise Resilient Kids Without Punishment | Dr. Becky Kennedy

Clinical psychologist Dr. Becky Kennedy, founder of Good Inside and author of Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want To Be, presents frameworks including Same Team, Sturdy leadership, and the three lines, alongside the Good Inside app and membership community. Discussion contrasts timeout- and sticker-chart-based discipline with identity-based, connection-first parenting and boundary-setting; Time Magazine has called Kennedy “the millennial parenting whisperer.”

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Lewis Howes?

  Everywhere I go, airports, events, walking down the street, people stop me and say, Louis, this show got me through one of the hardest seasons of my life. And it's one of the coolest things when people come up to me. So if you see me, please come up and say hi and let me know how this show, The School of Greatness, has impacted you. It lights me up because our mission at Greatness Media is to impact 100 million lives every single week. So if today's conversation hits home for you, do me a favor and push the follow button right now. It means that the next conversation will be delivered to you and we'll find you exactly when you need it. Again, thank you so much for being here and listening to The School of Greatness. Make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest.

• 0:49Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to The School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Dr. Becky in the house. Good to see you. Welcome.

• 0:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Thanks for having me.

• 0:58Lewis Howes?

  Very excited. I feel like I had a struggling childhood and I love my parents, but I also know that they could have done some things differently. And I think there's probably a lot of us in the world who are thinking, I love and appreciate a lot about my parents, but they might have also done some messed up things. And if we can start to do our own healing journey and start to reflect that, okay, maybe they just didn't have the tools, they didn't know any better. Hopefully they had the best intentions and we can try to have some compassion for our parents as adults. Then there's some more integration and healing that I think allows us for us as we grow up, right?

• 1:37Lewis Howes?

  However, how do we learn to make sure we raise good human beings without messing them up? When we haven't been taught how to be good parents? And to add to that question, is it possible to raise a child that is not traumatized in some way? No matter how good we try to raise them?

• 2:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm gonna try to answer all that. You'll let me know which parts of the question I lose as we go.

• 2:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So what you started with just resonates with me so strongly. And I think it really is the reason I like get out of bed every morning, right? Parenting is the most important job in the world and it is the hardest job. And it's probably the job we'll have for the longest number of years. Cause everyone knows it's more than 18 years, right? So, and someone said to me, I'll never forget, it's the only job you care about on your deathbed. Which I was like, okay, that's heavy, but I think that's, I mean, I wouldn't know yet hopefully, but I think that's true. And it's also like the only job that falls under like very difficult, very impactful, very ongoing, that we literally get no training for, right?

• 2:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And like if my friend was a surgeon and called me and said, I'm not doing surgery, right? And I'm messing everything up and I messed up this person forever and I'm so bad. And then I started poking around and it turned out she never went to med school or never went to residency. I'm pretty sure I would say to her, hey, like this is not that you're a bad surgeon. Like that's not what this is. You weren't adequately prepared and it's probably time to invest in resources. And I just want to say too, because I think it's important that if she said, don't worry, I got my, I got, I got all my tips on Instagram. I'd say, okay, I mean, like you might, I want to do a little more in depth than that. You know, like I think you deserve a little better, you know, than that.

• 3:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And yet this is what parents are set up for. When I've asked parents, the number one reason why they don't get the support they even think they need? The number one reason I get, the number one reason I hear is I should be able to do this on my own.

• 3:53Lewis Howes?

  It's like a shame underneath?

• 3:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. And there's, and there's a shame. And I think there's a really strong societal message. As a woman, I can say the maternal instinct is like a real thing that people think we should have, which really is a way of saying parenting has kind of traditionally been a woman's job. I think they're shifting around that. That's great.

• 4:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And it should just be something women have an instinct to do, which is a really great setup for any parent when they're struggling to say, I guess it's me. And I think when we're struggling, I mean, I think when we're struggling with anything, we have two paths. And this is where I think we'll be talking about parenting, but you don't have kids. I'm sure some of your listeners don't have kids. This is in some ways about kids, in some ways 0% about kids and parenting. Like when we're struggling, we can either say, what is wrong with me and it's my fault? Or when we're struggling, we can say, what resources and support do I need? And they're two completely different paths. One is activating and has hope and has a likelihood of change. And one is actually spiraling into an abyss and a freeze state, right? Of shame, which makes it impossible to change.

• 4:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think parents have typically said to themselves, what's wrong with me?

• 5:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  This should be easier. You kind of also see on Instagram, it looks like everyone else got their kid to smile for a holiday card. And you're like, that's not what happened to my kids, you know? And you feel like it's your fault and then you don't talk about it. And then you fake good and then the next person's like, well, that person seems to be having a hard time. And then, then honestly we feel small, you know? We don't get those resources. We don't feel empowered and kind of happens generation after generation. Until, until, this is not supposed to be depressing. This is so hopeful. You know, what we see at Good Inside and we, we hear all the time from our members is, I came here for my kid. Like, that is not why I'm here now. Like I now ask for a raise. I now can stand up to my partner when they're mad at me.

• 5:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I now know that it's okay for me to go away for a weekend with my college friends, even when my partner and my kids are upset, like have their feelings, like I can have empathy. And I can still do the things I need to do for myself. And in that way, I feel like what we're talking about is a lot of stuff you talk about is actually just, I call it sturdy leadership. And what's interesting to me is I feel like we have a lot of models for sturdy leadership in the workplace. Like there's a lot of thoughts now, like you can't really just yell at people and expect them to get better at work. And I even think that's like been modernized on the sports field. Like the best coaches like kind of know you gotta connect before you correct. And what's kind of amazing and sad, and yet we're there, I think hopefully now is like parenting young kids is kind of the last place

• 6:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  to modernize where sturdy leadership kind of gets applied and what it really looks like and how it benefits everyone. But that's really what Good Inside is.

• 6:35Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's interesting because I don't think I've ever heard that connect before you correct. And I, I just had a flashback to all the coaches that used to scream at me when I would drop a football or miss a basketball shot or just mess something up or I wasn't paying attention or whatever happened. And just screaming at me, belittling me, you know, making me feel less than in front of my peers, my teammates, and shaming me to try to get better. And I remember just feeling like resentful and angry all the time, right? And afraid. Now I would still work hard, but I didn't come from an emotionally good place. So I didn't want that to happen again out of fear of shame.

• 7:14Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to someone actually sitting down and connecting with me, where I did have great coaches also, who took the time to connect with me and asked me questions and, why are you so angry? Why are you reacting like this? What's going on? Why are you so frustrated? Why did you foul that person that way?

• 7:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  You know, what is going on?

• 7:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I use sports analogies all the time and connect before you correct. I, there's a lot of phrases I'll take credit for. That one's not mine. I actually can find, I don't know who said it first, but it's beautiful and it gives you an order of operations, right? Where I think about this all the time, like my kid is hitting their brother or my kid lied to my face about something that, you know, was important. Like, I don't know whether they studied for a test, whatever the behavior is, right? And I find out and I see them hitting and I just kind of send them to their room or I like take away their iPad or something, which I always say is like the worst thing. Cause when you're a parent, it really is like, now I have to deal with taking away their iPad. I don't even want to do that. I like when they have iPad time.

• 8:07Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 8:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Nobody wins. Like, why did I do that? You know? But I think about a basketball coach and I think about a kid who is missing layups all the time. And I think about watching my kid's basketball coach, if that's my kid.

• 8:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And the coach is like, you go to your room and you come back here when you can make a layup. And I feel like all the parents would be like, why, like, why would that even, what's the theory of why that would be effective? Forget like, what is my, you think my kid is now going to their room and Googling how to make a better shot? Like,

• 8:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes, you might have to pull the kid out of the game. But you probably want to say, hey, like, this is not your game right now. I believe in you. And like, we're gonna get in the gym tomorrow and get to the bottom of this and figure this out. And if that was my kid's coach, I just don't know if the parents would say, "That coach is really condoning that behavior. They're really encouraging. That coach is making it seem like it's okay to miss layups." Like, it doesn't make any sense, but we actually have a system of doing that to our kids over and over. And then we wonder why so many teens and adults feel so awful about themselves. Well, when you reflect back to a kid, that they're a bad kid, during the stage they're forming their identity, that will stick with them for a while.

• 9:24Lewis Howes?

  And it's hard for them to kind of unwire that, I guess, right? And believe that they're actually good.

• 9:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And totally possible. Like, to me, it's like, there's one thing I ever want someone to take from anything I say is, "It's never too late." It is never too late. Repair is amazing. It is never too late. The parent who's listening now is like, "Oh, no, I guess I messed up my kid forever." You did not. By the way, I sometimes say bad things to my kids, too. We're human. But to me, it's the starting point of, right, like, my kid is good inside. That's why, like, everything we do is called that. And to me, that idea isn't just like a phrase that sounds nice. To me, it's actually a core principle that is very different from a punishment or fear-based approach, which is, if I believe my kid is good inside, and I always find visuals helpful, so I look at one hand, I'm like, "This is my kid. This is who they are. That's their identity, and they are good inside." And then I look at my other hand, very far away,

• 10:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  and say, like, "This is their behavior. This is what they did." And I would agree with a lot of parents telling me, like, "Oh, they lied to your face?" I would agree, like, "Not great behavior." "They hit their sister?" Definitely not great behavior. But those things are different, and it's really important with your hands to keep them separate, because you could then look at one hand and say, "I have a good kid who hit their sister." And the only reason we want to punish and come down so harshly on our kids is because those hands collapsed. It's because I see the bad behavior, and I don't even realize it so fast in my brain, but immediately I assume I have a bad kid.

• 10:47Lewis Howes?

  That is my kid.

• 10:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That is my kid. It's collapsed. And to me, I mean, good inside is more things, but everything else flows from the foundation of, like, actually separating behavior from identity, which I think you get this, but not everyone does, so it's important to name, that doesn't mean condoning the behavior. Like, trying to understand behavior, we think means approving of behavior. But trying to understand why my kid is missing a layup, I don't think anyone thinks means that I think it's cool that my kid can't make a layup. They're different, but that separation is the foundation for everything.

• 11:25Lewis Howes?

  What would you say are the three biggest mistakes of modern parenting today?

• 11:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is it okay? For some reason, the reason mistakes that when I think about feels very, like, shame-inducing. So, and it feels like final. So, like, what are the three things that I want, like, myths or things I'd shift?

• 11:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, what are the three things that you think parents could do differently today to have a better connection with their children?

• 11:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think that would be number one. Number one is that trying to understand your kid's bad behavior is the foundation for effectively changing their behavior.

• 11:57Lewis Howes?

  So, understanding it first.

• 11:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You can only change what you understand.

• 12:02Lewis Howes?

  What if you don't understand it?

• 12:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's a great thing to acknowledge.

• 12:05Lewis Howes?

  I don't understand why you're doing this.

• 12:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's exactly right.

• 12:07Lewis Howes?

  Stop doing it, right?

• 12:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And if a parent said, "I mean, I've been like, really," I'd be like, "Louis, that is so beautiful. We know exactly where to start." And this goes back to not having the skills. Like, why would you understand a kid's behavior? It's very complicated. And so, it would be like a surgeon saying, "I don't understand how to do this surgery." And I'd be like, "Yeah, of course. Well, you didn't go to medical school. Like, let's get you into medical school." Like, there are places where you can do that, like, really. So, we have to understand before we intervene.

• 12:33Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 12:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? I think that's like a principle of everything.

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  So, we might have to learn, research, ask questions, you know, feedback from other people, whatever it might be, right?

• 12:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hundred percent. There might be experts. It might be the right community. There's courses we can take. There's so many resources.

• 12:45Lewis Howes?

  Good inside, you know?

• 12:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  There's the book. We do a million workshops, right? Like, the reason I do workshops is because I was like, I I have this private practice where I see a very limited group of people, and I was like, honestly, at the end of the day, I kind of have some version of the same, like, 10 to 15 sessions all day long. They're always about the same topics, right? Slightly different story, but same core things. I was like, I would like to democratize access to that. So, that's what my workshops are. They're just things that would come up in private practice, but to more people. So, there's so many resources. That's number one.

• 13:14Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 13:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Number two is that our job is not to make our kid happy. That is so important and so counter-cultural.

• 13:22Lewis Howes?

  Why is our job not to make our kids happy?

• 13:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Because when we focus on making our kids happy, we actually start to make them fearful and less tolerant of all of the other emotions that will inevitably be part of their life into adulthood. And so, when our kid says, let me make this up, like, "I'm the only one in my class who can't read." It's like, the most painful moment as a parent. Oh, I feel my kid's pain, right? And maybe, let's just say it's true. They really might be. We have the urge to say, "Everyone reads at their own pace," or, "But you're amazing at soccer. But you're so good at math." I want to make them happy.

• 14:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All that does for my kid is, because during childhood, kids are not just learning about a situation with a parent. They're taking interactions, and they're making generalizations. Not for one moment, but patterns about what emotions are safe? What emotions can I deal with? What can I tolerate? And what emotions, as soon as I feel them, do I need to, like, turn off right away? And so, when a kid says, "I'm the only one who can't read," the truth is, when our kid is adult, they probably won't say that. But they'll probably say, "I'm the only one who," whatever it is, "didn't get a job yet." "I'm the only one of my friends who didn't buy their own house," right? Whatever it is, like, we're always gonna feel that way. And so, when we make our kid happy,

• 14:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  what we actually say to them is, "I am just as scared of this emotion you're feeling as you are."

• 15:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And so, then what they do-

• 15:04Lewis Howes?

  "I don't want to deal with this emotion."

• 15:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  "I'm terrified. I want to run away from it. I want to do anything but this." And so, what a kid's circuit is, I feel, let's say it's this, "I feel less than," or could be, "I feel jealous. I feel sad. I feel disappointed." And what gets layered next to that in the circuit is my parents' fear. My parents' avoidance. Those things get put together. The irony is, when you make happiness a goal of childhood, you actually set a kid up for an adulthood of anxiety, because they have a range of emotions that they've encoded as wrong and fearful. And to me, anxiety actually isn't a feeling. It's the experience of wanting to run away from a feeling. And if you-

• 15:43Lewis Howes?

  Avoiding it, yeah.

• 15:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It is, and you can't really run away from a feeling inside your body. That's what anxiety is. You're like, "Wait, this is not gonna win." And so, to me, the idea of, we want to help kids become resilient. Resilience over happiness. And resilience comes from being able to tolerate and sit with the widest range of emotions, not constrict ourselves.

• 16:06Lewis Howes?

  I interviewed a brain surgeon out here, who's also a neuroscientist, a PhD in neuroscience, but also had done a thousand brain surgeries. And I said, "What's the number one skill you wish every human being could learn to be better humans?" And he said, "Emotional regulation." Like, from doing a thousand brain surgeries and studying neuroscience, the mind, he was like, "Emotional regulation will support us in being healthier, happier human beings." And it goes back to what you're saying, which is, learning how to navigate all of the emotions and be with them and feel uncomfortable and sad and know how to manage them, not avoid, run away, be distracted by them, right?

• 16:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right. Because like, when I, you know, I always joke, when I was in private practice, I saw a lot of, you know, 20-year-olds, 30-year-olds, 40-year-olds, and not one of them came to my practice saying, "Dr. Becky, like, I had the best parents," and, you know, those emotions other people feel, like jealous and sad and like those hard things, I got rid of them. My parents got rid of them. I've never felt them again. Like, that's never, that obviously has never happened. But what happened over and over, even though no one said it, but their stories and behavior really exemplified it, was, I am now 23, I'm now 45, and I'm literally no better able to regulate frustration and disappointment and sadness than I was when I was a toddler.

• 17:25Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 17:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And, but the stakes are higher.

• 17:28Lewis Howes?

  Way higher as an adult.

• 17:29Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Way higher. So, emotion regulation, that is the goal of childhood. I mean, that's the goal of adulthood, too, by the way. It's still the goal. We're all working on it.

• 17:38Lewis Howes?

  You've been called like the millennial parenting whisperer, is that right?

• 17:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think Time Magazine wrote that one.

• 17:43Lewis Howes?

  Time Magazine called you the millennial parenting whisperer. I've had Cesar Millan, who's the dog whisperer on, and, you know, people come in to say, "Hey, how do you fix my dog?" And he fixes humans, essentially. He teaches humans how to lead themselves better. And it sounds like parents come to you and say, "How do I fix my kid?" And you're coming to them and saying, "Well, you need to learn how to be a better leader and heal and reprogram yourself and learn how to regulate your emotions so you can manage these situations." Would that be accurate?

• 18:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That is completely accurate. And I think, you know, I'd double down on that and say, "I think when we have kids, we have this unconscious wish that they're gonna heal us."

• 18:21Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 18:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And they trigger us.

• 18:23Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 18:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's what happens when you have kids.

• 18:25Lewis Howes?

  So, I say it again?

• 18:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We have an unconscious wish that our kids will heal us. And in reality, our kids trigger us.

• 18:30Lewis Howes?

  Why do we think our kids will heal us?

• 18:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Because I think in general, we all have the wish that something-

• 18:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  In the external world, something we can gaze out at. Will finally give us the comfort and the sense of safety and security that we've always been yearning for. And part of adulthood, I think, involves learning to gaze in, not from a place of it's my fault, but from a place of actually like, I have the power, and it's hard, but I have the power to do that myself.

• 18:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so.

• 19:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Want to get to the third thing?

• 19:03Lewis Howes?

  Yes, because let's get to the third thing.

• 19:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  The third thing I want parents to know, and like to me, this is, I should have said it's the first thing. I messed up my order. So I saved the best for last. Start over.

• 19:13Lewis Howes?

  But the second thing was.

• 19:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Resilience over happiness. Yes.

• 19:18Lewis Howes?

  And I want to ask you, before you get to the third thing, how do we raise resilient children?

• 19:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, then this is, I can't, I'm excited. I'm excited. We can put the third thing out there. We'll leave everyone with a cliffhanger. What's the third thing? If this one's important, that one's even more important. Okay, so I think first of all, again, and we have to understand before we intervene. So how do we build resilience? Well, what is resilience, right? And we have to really understand that. And I think that resilience really is our ability to tolerate hard things. And the word tolerate is important because we all think it's the ability to like get through it. The getting through happens when it happens. And the truth is, the longer you can tolerate something, not something toxic, that is so not what I'm talking about, or abusive, but the longer you can tolerate something hard, the success is going to find itself

• 20:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  and it's going to be more likely because you were able to stay in the hard place.

• 20:09Lewis Howes?

  Can you give an example of what this would be like for a parent and a child?

• 20:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Sure, I can give you two different examples, very concretely, right? So this is something I teach to a lot of parents in one of my favorite, my frustration tolerance workshop, which is relevant for school, for everything. So let's say, and I'll say my three-year-old is doing a puzzle. Like, I can't do it. You do it for me. You do it for me. This is a good example, right? And as a parent, I get it. You got home, you're like, this is like the last thing I want to do.

• 20:34Lewis Howes?

  Tired, I want to relax.

• 20:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I was going to have a nice night with like, you know, my kid. I get it. But I'm really driven by impact. And so like, I actually get this like sick joy when my kid is on the verge of a meltdown.

• 20:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 20:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes, especially when I've been working a lot because I'm like, if I'm going to spend 20 minutes for my, with my kid, like, I'm going to make it count. And like, it's nice if I'm there for a pleasant 20 minutes, of course, but if I want to have impact, I like literally can picture my impact on him.

• 21:04Lewis Howes?

  So you're like hoping when you come home that having a breakdown or a temperature. Because that's when it's going to be a big breakthrough, right?

• 21:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But in a way, I think that's a really important reframe. It's like, especially if you're a parent who travels a lot or you're not around a lot, to be like, wait, like, I can have impact. It's not easy. It's certainly not convenient. That's the one word parents need to know. Having kids is not fun or convenient in most situations. It's not at all. And this is like your, it's like your Super Bowl right now. I guess this is your opportunity. You know, because my kid and how I respond to the puzzle, is not going to remember anything about the puzzle. Their body, not from that one time, but from patterns.

• 21:42Lewis Howes?

  Their nervous system.

• 21:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is going to be developing expectations around what can I do when things get hard?

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  What can I get away with, right?

• 21:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Or, yeah, and what should I expect? What is my self-talk? A parent's words become a child's self-talk.

• 22:02Lewis Howes?

  A parent's words become a child's self-talk. Wow.

• 22:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 22:05Lewis Howes?

  So what your parents say to you over and over again is what you say to yourself.

• 22:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Especially when paired with an emotional situation. So when I'm frustrated, did I have someone come? And I always say like frustration is now like super bright. Do I expect someone to come and turn off the light? No frustration.

• 22:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Or do I expect someone to come and like, by the way, they're present with me, they dim, they dim the light. So it's just not so blinding.

• 22:31Lewis Howes?

  Not throwing tans.

• 22:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's emotion regulation.

• 22:33Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 22:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like, that's the best it gets. There are drugs that will do that better for you, but they have, you know, that's not what we recommend for people long-term. Like, when we're talking about true emotion regulation, we're talking about a dimmer because it's impossible to deal with something when it's a 10 out of 10. Even nine out of 10 is really hard. Once you have to an eight or a seven, it's not pleasant, it's not convenient, but you, you start to be able to tolerate it. And from there, you can, you know, get maybe to a six or a five. That's the goal for our kids. So I'll model this. My kid is freaking out about the puzzle. Now, to be clear, are there some times that I'd be like, I'm giving myself permission to do the puzzle because I can't deal with this? Of course, I'm a normal human. Everybody has to give that permission to themselves.

• 23:12Lewis Howes?

  So Dr. Becky, you're not a perfect parent?

• 23:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like, zero. No, no, no. Everyone listening to what I'm saying, don't think like, I actually do this all the time.

• 23:18Lewis Howes?

  You're not, every day you come home at night after a long day, and you're just like, okay, what do you need right now? And you're stressed out. Okay, I'm going to do this puzzle with you. Yeah.

• 23:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And that will eventually get to point three. And I wouldn't wish Dr. Becky as the real parent on any kid. It's just like, you learn the most, I'm sure you too in life, you learn the most from people who struggle and repair.

• 23:34Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 23:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? So, but here's this like moment, and there's, and I can go through an older kid example too, because it's not as obvious. But like, my kid is frustrated. My kid's going to be frustrated for the rest of their life in higher-stakes situations. They're going to be given something from a boss, be like, I don't know how to do this. And like, I actually don't, first of all, I definitely don't want my kid, when they're 25, to call me and be like, can you do my project for me? I definitely don't want that. I don't want them to be indignant. How could this person have, I want them to have some type of weight. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I have a feeling I can just think this through or get a little further. So that's what I want there. That is not unrelated to the pattern of how I interact now.

• 24:13Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So I could say, here's the piece. Once in a while, I do that. Not great for long-term resilience. So here's what I might do, okay? And I'm going to, my kid is starting to have a tantrum. And even he's saying, do the piece. I can't do it. I'm going to say, sweetie, sweetie,

• 24:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  this is, this is so hard. This is so hard. And I know, I have real kids. It's not like they are going to say to me, oh, that's so helpful to hear. No, it's not going to happen. They're going to still freaking out. But their reaction is different than the power of my intervention. Also two separate things. I might say this. I might say, oh, so many pieces. I don't know where it goes. Does it go here? Does it go here? Does it go here? And if my kid is like, do it for me, I really, and I've said this to my kid, I said, listen, sweetie, I'm not going to do it for you. Here's why.

• 24:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I know you're capable of figuring this out. And the best feeling in the world is the feeling you get when you think you can do something. And then you wait a little bit and you see that you can do a little bit more. And I'm not going to take that feeling away from you. And so I'll take a deep breath with you. We can take a break, but like, I know you can do this. Okay? And when I hear people be like, does that work? Yes. I mean, doesn't that work for adults? Imagine you're having a hard time at your job and you're saying to your manager, like, you do this one. If they're like, listen, I'm not, because I know you're capable. And like, it's okay if it takes some time. It's okay if you take a break. I can be here to like, kind of think about where could that piece go?

• 25:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Ooh, is that an edge? Ooh, edge is in the middle. Probably not in the puzzle. Where do, oh, you're right. Edges go on the outside. Look at you. My kid experiences the win. And what their body learns is when I get frustrated, I don't look for the answer for someone to take that away from me and give me immediate success. By the way, if we really want to get into it, if you want to know what entitlement is, entitlement is the accumulated experience of feeling frustrated and then having someone else give you immediate success.

• 26:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's what it is.

• 26:11Lewis Howes?

  Without you having to do it.

• 26:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I'll never forget seeing this family of 16-year-olds who was like horrified. Their kid had a full-on tantrum at 16 because they weren't flying first class. And they were like, every parent's nightmare. And they're like, how do we get an entitled kid? The most well-meaning parents, but this was a kid, every time something didn't go his way. And I think money makes this more complicated because you can buy kind of your way out of kids frustration. You can. So it's almost hard to resist that if that's an option. But every time, it was like frustration, success. Frustration, a new option. Frustration, I figured it out because someone else did something for me. Well, when you finally get to the point at 16, if that's your circuit, and then you're frustrated because something's surprising, it's not really about first class. Your body actually is like WTF. Like, I literally was not built to tolerate this.

• 26:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And then it ends up looking awful, but really, it's really vulnerable, right?

• 27:02Lewis Howes?

  Super vulnerable.

• 27:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Super vulnerable. So I want to give you one more example of resilience. There's three lines I think every parent needs to know.

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 27:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I honestly have, can almost reframe that thing. I think every person in a relationship needs to know. Whether you're in a romantic relationship, a work relationship, it's the same stuff. Because another resilience-building moment, I can imagine, is kind of like what I said to you earlier. Let's say your kid's a little older. I'm the only, I'm the only kid who doesn't know how to read chapter books. Or I'm the only, one of my friends who didn't get into honors math.

• 27:27Lewis Howes?

  So teenagers.

• 27:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, I'll say that. I'm the only kid who didn't get into honors math. Or I tried out for lacrosse team. All my kids, my friends made it.

• 27:33Lewis Howes?

  And I didn't make it, yeah.

• 27:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Everyone, me included, okay, my first instinct is to quote, "Make my kid feel better." "Oh, you're gonna make it next year," or "You made varsity soccer and none of them made soccer," right, whatever, whatever the thing is. Or we say, "You're gonna see it's not a big deal." Okay, so here's the image, I'm big on images.

• 27:53Lewis Howes?

  No, this is gonna matter in 20 years, or whatever your, yeah.

• 27:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We say, right? The truth is, we kinda say it because we're uncomfortable, and we're just kinda making a kid a pawn in our game. But like, if you picture your kid on a bench, if you picture like them kind of in a garden, that's what I like to see, that's like the parable for life, the garden, and there's a bench. And essentially, when your kid says, "I'm the only one who didn't make the lacrosse team." Let's say they're sitting on the bench of, what is it, disappointment, or maybe it's embarrassment, or both, or feeling surprised and let down, I don't know, it's something like that, that's the bench. And as parents, we tend to have two instincts when our kid is on the bench, kind of of some type of distress. We either wanna tell them that their bench isn't their bench, like, "That's not a big deal." You know, they're like, "But I'm..."

• 28:37Lewis Howes?

  But that's how I feel.

• 28:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But I'm on it, like, I'm... Or we kind of see a sunnier bench, and we're like, "Just come with me," right? But like, "You're the best at, you know, at soccer," and so we're like, right? And both of those reduce resilience. Because resilience is kind of like your ability in that garden of life to like, whatever bench you find yourself on, you're able to sit in it, not drown in it, but sit in it. Like, because when you're there, you inevitably will be, like, you're not terrified it, you're not spending all your energy like, running away from a bench. Like, if you saw that, you'd be like, "Dude, like, what, just a bench," you know, just... And so, how do we help our kid feel like, essentially like, it's okay to be them,

• 29:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  no matter what bench they're on, or it's really, it's okay to be you even when you don't make the lacrosse team? Because that's really the essence, that's the core thing that resilience is about.

• 29:28Lewis Howes?

  So how long should they sit on that bench of emotion?

• 29:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Great, so to me, these three lines will play that out. So to me, as soon as your kid says something distressing to you, we have those two urges, we have to recognize them, we're not bad people, just, I always say, "Say hi to them," "Hello," urge to make it better, and here's to me is the first line every parent needs in their toolbox. "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this."

• 29:48Lewis Howes?

  To the child, say that to the child right away. When they're stressed out, when they're angry, upset, shameful, any unsettling emotion that you don't enjoy yourself, say back to them, "I'm so glad you're telling me this right now."

• 30:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, "I'm so glad we're talking about this." That because, and again, if you think about it in an adult context, if I was like, "I'm so mad at my husband, he never," whatever, whatever it is, "He never is home for bedtime, and he forgot the one thing I said." And if I was like, "Hey, like, you're never, you're never doing anything around the house," and I, I'm really frustrated, if he said to me, "You know what, Becky, well, you're upset, but like, I'm so glad you're telling me about this." Like, you know relationships, I'd be like, "I think we're good now." Like, I don't, I don't even know what was I upset about, like... Because what someone's really saying to you when they say that is, this feeling in you that you're feeling is real, and I still wanna be in a relationship with you when you're feeling that way.

• 30:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I still love and accept you.

• 30:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, and so, our kids need to absorb from us, from a resilience perspective, my parent can tolerate this part of me before I learn to tolerate this part of me. So that's line one. Line two, "I believe you." I always say, like, if there's one line that would be probably the most healing in people's childhoods, and the most confidence building from childhood, it's that, and it's so simple. Like, because when you say to someone...

• 31:14Lewis Howes?

  What if you really don't believe them, though?

• 31:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, there's always something you should believe, so, so, right? Because, like, they're like, "I didn't make the lacrosse team," and, um, "Oh, and like, I'm never gonna be able to go to school again," or something like, it's so embarrassing, right? I'm not saying, "I guess you can never go to school again," that's not what I'm believing.

• 31:32Lewis Howes?

  I believe that's how you feel.

• 31:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, and you don't have to say that, because underneath our kids' extreme verbalizations, we get very caught up in their words.

• 31:40Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 31:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  They represent a world, we believe the world. And so, even though, like, "I'm never going to school again," I would say, like, "I believe it feels that bad." And because I do, it does, I mean, and it's like, it just, it is, like, he's on that bench, like, right?

• 31:55Lewis Howes?

  Especially if you have someone at that age who doesn't have the skills of emotional resilience, or they're building it still, and they haven't figured out how to manage those emotions, it seems horrifying.

• 32:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right.

• 32:06Lewis Howes?

  It seems terrifying.

• 32:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, and if my kid says, "I'm the only one who didn't get a chapter book," you know, "I got this picture book, and everyone else is reading chapter books," it's so easy to say, "Oh, you can't be the only one." We actually say to our kids all the time, which terrifies me, "I don't believe you." And if we wonder why people don't trust their emotions, it's because when they felt emotions that were strong, they received, not one time, over and over, a message of, "I know your feelings better than you know your feelings."

• 32:37Lewis Howes?

  Or just suck it up, or it's not that big a deal, or just kind of undermining their emotions.

• 32:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, and so, when I think about, "I believe you," I do, like, I have a daughter, I have three kids, I have a daughter, and like, I don't know why, I always picture like, she's at some like, college party, and some like, kind of uncomfortable situation, let's just say.

• 32:54Lewis Howes?

  How old is she now?

• 32:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  How old is she now? She's nine, but let's just say she's now, she's 20, and someone's like, "I don't know, come back with me," unless, if she wants to, great, but let's say she doesn't.

• 33:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, in those situations, you'd be like, "It's not a big deal," you know? Do I want her self-talk to be, "I do have a history of other people knowing what I'm feeling better than I know what I'm feeling," or do I want her to be like, like, "I know I don't wanna go home, I, like, I wanna cry, like, I believe myself, and I, this person is telling me I want something else, but like, how could this person know because I know what I'm feeling?" And those things are completely related, and so, that's the second line. And then the third line is equally simple, it's just, "Tell me more." "Tell me more," oh, and then, "Oh, so they posted the list on the pin," but wait, so everyone was, oh my goodness,

• 33:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  everyone was there, and let's say I knew my son had a crush on someone, "Oh, that person, oh, that person was there too, and you were like, so excited, you were gonna like, be on the lacrosse team, and that person saw..."

• 33:56Lewis Howes?

  Saw that you failed, and...

• 33:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Exactly, so I'm just like, fleshing out the story, and now, at all these moments that my kid was in pain, which, by the way, part of the pain is probably that they were alone, kind of infusing myself in every moment, I'm adding connection, I'm adding believing, and here's the thing about the bench. In my experience, when you kind of go through this, your kid gets off the bench before you do, every time.

• 34:17Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 34:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And then you're like, "Oh, I guess where are they going next?" And when they need you...

• 34:21Lewis Howes?

  But come back.

• 34:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, or you find them on that next bench.

• 34:24Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So they'll get off this bench faster of emotions if you go through in one or all three of these questions, or these, these phrases, right?

• 34:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  They really do, and look, we can't just like, say them, like, if I'm sitting with my kid, I'm like, "I believe you, tell me more," like, they're gonna be like, "What are you doing, like, did you hear that on some podcast," you know? So, um, that won't help, right? We've, we've, we process intention and tone before language, so that has to be there. And like, I don't wanna say it's some magic, and to me, when do kids get off it? Like, I don't know, we all feel feelings for whatever amount of time, you know? But if, like, I get it, like, parents are sometimes worried, like, "Am I gonna stick them there?" Like, feelings don't give us problems as much as feeling alone in our feelings give us problems.

• 35:06Lewis Howes?

  Feeling alone in our feelings give us problems?

• 35:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's what makes us stuck.

• 35:09Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 35:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We're literally stuck because we're alone, like, humans are, we're beings of connection and attachment, attachment's what's driving us, so we're always attachment-seeking, and when we're not getting the attachment we need, we will get stuck and frozen, like you were kind of referring to, you're frozen. And so, it's interesting, we have such a fear of, "If I connect, I'll keep them there longer." It's actually aloneness that keeps them in there longer, and actually makes them intensify things, because when we don't get our emotions taken seriously by someone, everyone, forget being a kid, adult too, you escalate the expression because you're that much more desperate to be taken seriously, which usually makes people be like, "I can't, you're so dramatic," okay, you know, now they have to escalate.

• 35:48Lewis Howes?

  Even more, until you pay attention to me.

• 35:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Exactly, which is why the "I believe you," and it can be healing too, and repair, like, hey, you know, like, "You're still stuck on this lacrosse thing," because I get it from a parent, they're like, "They didn't make lacrosse four months ago, Dr. Becky, he's still..." Right, but if you just assume, and it's not right, but it's, it might be effective, right? Like, there's a million ways to interpret things, I always say, like, you can be right, or you can be effective, like, I urge the effective, you know? So just say, like, "You know what, like, I don't feel like I ever fully understand how awful that day was. I'm just gonna sit in your bed," and the idea of sitting on a bench, like, I think that's usual, it's like, "Sit on the bed with your teen," or, you know, "And I'm just gonna listen." And I would say to your kid, not listen to judge or give you an idea, because actually, that's not listening, listen to understand, and that just means, "I wanna hear you, I may have things to clarify,

• 36:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  but what I've never said to you, and I should have said, is..." I believe you that that day felt as bad as you said it did. And like, not like, normal bad, not like, I went to my favorite ice cream store and got an ice cream and it dropped off my cone, not like, a billion times worse than that. And I just, how parent, I feel like, a parent's be like, my kid really, like, my kid started crying, or my kid, like, something released and they softened, like, and you know this, like, at our core, we are desperate to be believed. That's like, our most core need.

• 37:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes, it's true.

• 37:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Just believed and seen, and like, so, so many of these times when a parent feels like, my kid is stuck in that, the thing that we need to shift is actually taking the opposite approach. We usually like, you don't need to feel like that anymore, that was four months. It's actually sticking them more, it's just like, wait.

• 37:27Lewis Howes?

  Staying in the emotion more.

• 37:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 37:29Lewis Howes?

  Saying, let's talk about it more, tell me more about this.

• 37:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, just tell me more, I must not have understood something. And then, of course, it's helpful to have language, look, this was super, super helpful, like, kind of, I wouldn't say this to my kid, but, we're gonna time box this, you know, like, things that, you know, and, you know.

• 37:43Lewis Howes?

  Talk about it for what, 30 minutes?

• 37:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Sure, I always like, talk about, when I used to work with adults, like, who are really kind of looping in their anxiety, like, whenever worry window, for like, the top of an hour, for 10 minutes, you're gonna literally just focus on everything you're worried about. And like, if you ever have a productive, hopeful thought, you're actually not, you're gonna say, sorry, no, worry time, no, no, I'm only negative.

• 38:01Lewis Howes?

  Stress only right now.

• 38:01Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm gonna write it all down, and then during the other 15 minutes, you're gonna say, hi worries, and, don't worry, like, it's kind of like when you have multiple kids, like, you, you don't even want my attention now, you don't have my full attention. Like, you're gonna get my full attention at, at 2, or 15 minutes away, and, and, and, our, our feelings actually, they kind of do respect that, and I think kids would too. So, I wanna talk to you about lacrosse, and, I wanna be honest, I wanna talk about it, I haven't been the best listener, I really haven't, I'm gonna do that differently, you're gonna see, I'm not gonna be perfect, but you'll see a difference. At 110, that's what I'm gonna call it, not because you're not allowed to have feelings after that, but feelings are tricky, like, it's super helpful to know them, and it's helpful for feelings to know they even have a boundary. And so at that point, you know, like, we're, we're gonna do something else, or at least I'm gonna do something else. Yeah, we can do that.

• 38:45Lewis Howes?

  Now, everything you say here makes a lot of sense to me. And I fully believe and understand that this is a great approach to building relationship with anyone, right, a partner, a child, anyone. But I think about, you know, our grandparents' generation, or our great-grandparents' generation, that didn't have the conveniences, the ease, the speed of things that we do, the flexibility, the, just pay for something and you have a solution done in seconds, the distractions. And I could see them saying, you know, what are you guys talking about? This just, what do you mean, have all these loving conversations and really sit down for 30 minutes

• 39:28Lewis Howes?

  and let them talk about nonsense, or whatever, you know, I could just think about our grandparents' generation, some of them, thinking, what is this even mean? Because we don't have that luxury to do that.

• 39:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Lewis Howes?

  We've gotta work hard, you know, there's wars happening, we've got child, we're, all this stuff we're dealing with, than trying to deal with a simple little emotion.

• 39:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Uh huh.

• 39:52Lewis Howes?

  I'm all for not being, being that way, I'm all for having loving, vulnerable conversations, but, again, it, what's, what I'm hearing you say is, learning how to prepare individuals to be resilient is gonna be one of the greatest skills that they can learn. But it seems like it's really tough these days to build resilient children into young adults and adults, with all the ease, flexibility, and distractions we have.

• 40:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean, I think you're absolutely right, it is really hard, and I think it doubles down on the reason why, parents like, okay, where's my school, where's my resources, cuz like, this is a hard world. So, there's a couple of things I say, like, if someone ever said to me, like, Becky, this does not make sense, like, this is like, it's like, oh, you're talking about lacrosse feelings forever, like, I really mean this, like, if they were in the room saying that to me, 0% of me would even wanna be like, here's my argument back, I, I really, like, I'm a deeply curious person, like, I really am, I'd be like, oh, like, well, and what would that lead to, like, what would you be worried would happen? Like, what would we be missing there, oh, that's a good point, let's, or, oh, I see it this way, like, I would actually, I, there's nothing I love more than engaging in people who have very different opinions. For me, not because I see it as a match, like, I actually learn a ton.

• 40:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So I have deep respect for people who don't think that way, and would say, that's the way the conversation would go. One thing I'll say, though, is, we had this idea, and it's been passed on to us, generation after generation, that like, feelings are soft, it's just like bananas to me, like, no part of me, like, when I think about my style, my approach, like, the word soft, or, people actually say to me often, cuz there's a whole field of gentle parenting, like, tell me about gentle parenting, I don't even know exactly how you define gentle parenting. Gentle is like, one of the, is lowest on the list of adjectives I'd use to describe myself. That doesn't mean mean, there's a lot between, but, gentle, soft, like, that is so not me, right? That's just not my style, it's not my approach.

• 41:37Lewis Howes?

  What is your style of parenting?

• 41:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I call, I mean, if I had to put a name to it, and I hate boxing myself in, but it would be like, the word sturdy, is it? And to me, sturdiness is your ability to both be connected to someone else and stay connected to yourself at the same time. And the irony, and this is what I think is so interesting, we feel before we think. Our feelings are what give us basic information about survival, about danger, and about what we need. That's what our feeling is, like, anger is a feeling, most of us haven't learned to manage it, that's a different topic, but, anger is a feeling that tells you what you need. That's useful information to live a life in line with your values.

• 42:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like, feelings being soft, like, I feel like someone said that thousands of years ago, and for some reason, like, it, it doesn't, like, it just doesn't make any sense to me, it's the first thing. What first thing in a circuit is soft, it's primary, it's literally primary. Now, most of us were not raised to manage our emotions. But the way I see it from the start is, kids are born with all of the emotions, and none of the skills to manage emotions.

• 42:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And for generations, we've said, the emotions are the problem.

• 42:52Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 42:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  The lack of skills are the problem.

• 42:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 42:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Because the emotions, they're gonna beat us every day, they're inside of us, you can't get rid of them.

• 43:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:01Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  If you can't beat them, join them, like, that's soft, it's like, it's like something we justify to ourselves, so we don't feel weak, like.

• 43:07Lewis Howes?

  Well, the funny thing is, parents, they don't like the emotions of the child, but they can't manage their own emotions a lot of times.

• 43:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, that's actually what it is, like, when we say, let's say my kid is melting down because, classic, let's say, toddler, I cut their grilled cheese in half.

• 43:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, where I cut it in a triangle, instead of the rectangle.

• 43:24Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna cut the, the edges off.

• 43:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Crust, exactly, that's easier, at least I can now do that, or I did cut the crust off, and I'm trying to like, tape it back together or something, you know? Right, so my kid's having a tantrum, and we say to ourselves, and it sounds convincing, my kid is so difficult. We're not reacting to our kid's tantrum, we are reacting to what happens inside of us when our kid has a tantrum, and the only reason we wanna shut down the tantrum is because we want to shut down this feeling we don't have the skill to manage.

• 43:52Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 43:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And so again.

• 43:54Lewis Howes?

  That we're inferior.

• 43:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, like, we actually, like, we're like, you have to stop, because our body actually is like, I don't know how to tolerate the feeling in me.

• 44:03Lewis Howes?

  My goodness.

• 44:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  In me, which kind of why it all goes back to our, not our fault, but our, our skill building.

• 44:10Lewis Howes?

  And our ability to heal.

• 44:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Our ability to heal, and kind of this reframing, like, I would love someone to come out, and someone like, more, you know, stereotypically masculine, be like, maybe emotions aren't soft, maybe they're pretty, pretty tough, those things, you know? Maybe that's like, our core, it is our core, you know, like, and the other thing about being soft, and I just, I always have to say this, like, I think about the situation where we like, dole out random punishments to our kids, like, my kid is having this tantrum, and I'm like, go to your room, or, no iPad for the week, or, no dessert.

• 44:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That is, that is friggin' soft to me.

• 44:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 44:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like, that is desperate, no parent is doing that from a place of groundedness, like, I'm the CEO of my company, like, if one of my employees was like, acting out in some way, and I was like, go to your room and no lunch for a week, do you think everyone around me would be like, Becky is kicking ass? Like, what an amazing, they'd be like, wow.

• 45:06Lewis Howes?

  She's breaking down in front of us, yeah.

• 45:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Breaking down, literally.

• 45:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Literally, she's desperate.

• 45:13Lewis Howes?

  Wow, is that what they said to you last week, or?

• 45:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  No, but like, when people ask me about that, it's like, guess what I lead with? The same principles, like, my job as a leader in that situation is I might have to set a boundary, which is something we could talk about, cuz I love talking about boundaries, and I think most people get them wrong. And I might have to connect with that employee after, maybe the employee's always interrupting me or something, but, like, sending someone away, or like, taking away something random, like, it's just, I don't know why that's a sign of like, awesome leadership, it's a sign of desperation, and in that way, I think that way of parenting is super soft.

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now, and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops, because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now, let's get back to the conversation. So what's the best way to, to, I don't know if I wanna call it punish your children, but what is the best way to create a lesson within them through either punishment or something else?

• 46:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right, and, and I wanna ask your first question, cuz it's what I get. So my kid did this thing, what's a good punishment, or how do I give a good punishment? Or I don't do punishments, but I do do consequences, whatever they say, right?

• 46:38Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right, boundaries, whatever.

• 46:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, and to me, this actually gets to the core of why I started writing, right? Because I was trained in a very different way of working with parents. It was all punishments, timeouts, rewards, sticker charts, ignoring, praise, it's kind of like, praise the good to get more of the good, punish or ignore the bad to get less of the bad. And when I went through this very esteemed program, like, to me, that was my first reaction, I was like, this is amazing.

• 47:05Lewis Howes?

  The program taught you these strategies.

• 47:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes, this is like, probably still the gold standard out there, to teach psychologists, for how to work with parents who work with kids, 100%. And, and what happens, if you're, is it lights up the left part of your brain, cuz it's so linear, and it's so seemingly logical, I don't think it's logical when you break it down, but you're like, that's right, like, I'm gonna get more of the good behavior, I'm gonna get less of the bad behavior, and, and, and so it all kind of like, made sense at the time.

• 47:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But then I think what happened in my private practice is like I would be I would I was like teaching parents that these ways you know they'd come to me my kid is you know doing something that would deserve a punishment I say okay I'm gonna teach you I'm gonna give a timeout here's exactly doing there's a protocol and here's the sticker chart program you're gonna put them on and when they do this I want to give them praise in this way and when they do this I just want you to kind of ignore them like they're not there like it's this whole like behave it's like raising kids through behavioral control like people don't say that but it's kind of what it is but I taught this and while I was teaching it so having my own kids

• 48:08Lewis Howes?

  It sounds like it's kind of like training animals

• 48:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Except it's what's really interesting is I've started to I said that a couple times and actually some of the more modern people who do animal training are like please don't say that we actually don't I mean like we don't train dogs that way anymore and I was like wow we we've elevated

• 48:25Lewis Howes?

  Dogs dogs are beyond that now

• 48:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah Yes

• 48:29Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that crazy they're like that's beneath our dogs

• 48:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah because our kids are our most like least respected citizens right we don't realize that they actually have the same needs as us I guess dogs do too but so I was in session one day and honestly for probably the last six months like the way I would say is like I was saying this and my brain was like yes timeouts yes makes so much sense I'm helping these people and it's so clear it's just so clear and when kids do something bad I'm just gonna say it it feels it does feel good to give a punishment or timeout because you're like I just did something and you kind of get to like vomit your frustration onto them like that's all it really is you're like now I don't have to feel bad I'm just gonna put it on you so I get it and I was teaching it and this feeling I just can't describe it's like my body was just like rising like it was first like I

• 49:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  don't know about this and I was like okay like I really don't know about this and but I was like well what else is there and I remember having I was like I don't know I don't know what else is there so I kept having these sessions and then one day these parents came and I was teaching them how to give a timeout and like it truly was one of those I would say out of body but it was a massively in body experience that like that feeling got so loud in me that's the only way I can describe what actually happened that I couldn't finish the teaching and I just said to them this is gonna sound really weird but I don't believe what I'm telling you literally I'll never forget their look and they were just like seriously like you came very highly recommended

• 49:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah we paid you a lot of money for this session

• 50:01Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  A lot of money and I was like I will give you back your money and they're like yes you will and I was like of course and I was like and come back in like a couple weeks I just have to figure something out and they were like we will not be coming back I was like and I do not blame you like this is a very weird experience I'm sorry it's actually funny like with everything I've done now I keep being like I think they're gonna reach out to me one day

• 50:20Lewis Howes?

  They never have

• 50:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Not yet I don't know yeah um but it just was like I didn't feel right and and there's all of this evidence for it I'm a believer in evidence and I love science but it's always interesting like it works like works and what does work mean and I think this gets to the core of your question like does work mean my kid has an intense reaction does work mean that if I happen to have a people pleasing kid who's very attentive to my gaze and hates to disappoint me that they'll change their behavior for that reason by the way they will have a whole host of other problems by the time they're adults

• 50:55Lewis Howes?

  Really

• 50:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean

• 50:56Lewis Howes?

  What would those problems be for kids like that who just want to please their parents constantly

• 51:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That that's the form of an attachment they formed and so they end up going to adulthood not only being with but actually seeking out and being attracted to people who are like tell me I'm good tell me I'm good for you and what I want what's going on for me doesn't matter my safety comes from making sure you are pleased with me

• 51:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow

• 51:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't have to tell you the type of relationships and right but that and it's not so like and that's what's gonna happen never too late but like that that's not something I think every I'm gonna say especially like mom I know and woman I know is trying to like undo a lot of that so you know and I'll never forget a clinical supervisor saying like you know what else would work for kids because I remember he earlier than me was skeptical about all these like timeouts he's like every time my kid did something bad I made them sleep on the New York City street like but I don't know if I had evidence to show that that worked if that's evidence to brag about I'll never forget and I'm like that's a good point like what do we mean why do we have to like be a little more critical right of and I just remember in this session being like I know there's evidence and I don't discount all of it and it's not like all so bad I'm not a rigid thinker but

• 52:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  this is gonna sound so cheesy but like what about the evidence in my body that this is wrong I don't know I don't say it's superior evidence it's not but like what what about that and what about the evidence I have for my private practice with adults where I watch them change their lives based on an approach I use with them that is a 180 degree difference from what I've been telling parents to do with their kids like what about that and like and then what ended up happening is I was like I'm gonna take this very like first principles approach to parenting like right we strip back every assumption anything that could be assumption you're like no no and what are you left with and I was left with one thing one because there's all these assumptions if you don't punish a behavior it's like you're saying it's okay

• 52:50Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna continue yeah

• 52:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Exactly when kids do bad things you have to punish like and I was like I think that's an assumption like that's an assumption again because like if I wasn't my nicest my husband and he's like I have to punish you I'd be like I don't think anyone would be like

• 53:03Lewis Howes?

  I'm not gonna speak to you for a week

• 53:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah I don't think I'd be like you have a wonderful husband like no one would say that they'd be concerned for me and so I was left with one thing and it was just like kids are good inside and there is a difference between good inside identity and bad behavior and I've always been very attracted to gaps that don't make sense because it's where you can like think and wonder and I just started asking questions why would good kids do bad things why would good people why do good people do bad things and then I came up with this phrase like well what would be my most generous interpretation and to me this is like a massive skill an adult would do like what is my most generous interpretation of why my employee is coming in late what is my most generous interpretation of why my kid is jumping on the couch even though I looked at them and I said please stop jumping on the couch and they looked at me and they smiled and then they kept

• 53:49Lewis Howes?

  jumping on the couch

• 53:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like I know my least generous interpretation because we come up with that fast because we're like well my kid's a sociopath and we it's like so fast and every parent's like I think that all the time because we go there and then we of course interact with our kid based on that interpretation which of course you then send your kid to their room so what is my most generous interpretation everyone came back to the same thing I have a good kid who doesn't have the skills they don't have the skills they're struggling I have a kid who's having a hard time not giving me a hard time and the pathway you take from having a hard time versus giving me a hard time could not be more different and you ask different questions so when parents say to me what's the punishment it's like to me a question is like a road you're asking someone to walk down with

• 54:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  you in life that's how I think about questions and like for me when parents ask me that question I'm like I just that's not a road I'm gonna walk down it's not gonna lead us to a productive place right like and there's a different road I can walk down with you whether it's like I wonder why we think punishment you know is the right thing but even more practically let's say it's the jumping on the couch like well what's the most generous interpretation here and I'm not a softie again I'm very practical I want change for kids behavior like I've like very like I have like a little window that I can be tolerant I get it like and I'm all for these wins that last but then I would just ask a different question not what punishment but what skill literally would

• 55:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  my kid need so that the next time this happens they actually have a new skill to use as opposed to being punished for not having had that skill same thing with a football player like your quarterback is like I don't know constantly throwing interceptions like I guess you could punish the quarterback

• 55:34Lewis Howes?

  Or teach them new skills

• 55:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But like why then would the quarterback do anything differently the next time they were under that condition like why it doesn't even make that's where the logic breaks down or I can in practice be like every time I don't know whatever it is this happens that we've noticed your pattern and so actually in practice we're gonna practice that we're gonna pause you and we're gonna have you notice what you're about to do and I'm gonna teach you something else

• 55:56Lewis Howes?

  You just triggered something in me it's like when I would get screamed at by the coaches that I felt like were less effective um when I would drop the ball if they were like why did you do that catch the ball it's like you think I'm trying to drop the I'm not trying to drop the ball but now I'm gonna go out there the next time and don't drop the ball this time it's like now I'm anxious now I'm nervous now everyone's watching now there's higher states there's pressure and I'm gonna try to do my best and if I drop it again it's just like now I'm a failure it's not empowering me to be better it's not teaching me a skill it's not saying okay the goal is for you to catch the ball Let's talk about what might have happened for you. What were you thinking? What were you feeling? Do you need more? Whatever skills you need.

• 56:41Lewis Howes?

  So I like this approach to

• 56:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right.

• 56:43Lewis Howes?

  addressing the skill or the lesson or something to be taught as opposed to blaming, shaming, or punishing.

• 56:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, and again, like, to me, like, it's just 0% soft. It's just like how people change. Like, and to me, the phrase same

• 56:57Lewis Howes?

  It's also called leadership.

• 56:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It's leadership. And I think same team is a helpful phrase to get in that mindset. Like, I feel like if a coach said to you, like, Louis, we're on the same team. And Louis, like, I know you know you're supposed to catch the ball. You do not need me to tell you that. Like, we don't say, like, our kids know that they shouldn't be hitting. Like, they know. So, but if you think about that, that can anger parents. They know better. And frankly, I know better than to scroll on my phone before bed.

• 57:22Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 57:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Still do it, right? So if you approach them, like, hey, Louis, we're on the same team. And I know you know this. And I mean, this is like a helpful phrase even to think. There's something that's getting in your way, this game. I don't really know what it is, but I do know we're gonna break it down together and figure it out. How are you gonna feel?

• 57:37Lewis Howes?

  I feel a lot better. Oh, he's on my side, or she's on my side. They see what I'm up to, you know? They're with me in the pain, whatever it might be.

• 57:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right. And I don't think you think, I think my coach thinks it's fine if I drop the next ball. Like, and no one thinks that. You're just like, now you have an opportunity to change. So if we get this jumping on the couch example, because I think it's like a

• 57:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's a good one.

• 57:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It's a good one. And it actually brings us to boundaries, which is like one of my favorite life topics. Okay? Because as much as I like feelings, I like boundaries. Because this is where we've gone a little too far, some people. People are like, okay, I'm not punishing my kid. Their feelings matter. But then it's like kids' feelings, like, drive decision making.

• 58:14Lewis Howes?

  It drives decisions for parents and the whole family, right?

• 58:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Equally as bad for kids as sending them to their room. So validating feelings is an incomplete parenting strategy. I will go on the record and say that.

• 58:24Lewis Howes?

  Say it again?

• 58:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Validating feelings is an incomplete parenting strategy.

• 58:29Lewis Howes?

  It's part of the strategy.

• 58:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes. But it cannot be the whole thing.

• 58:32Lewis Howes?

  And also to pause there, because I want to hear the final there. But when parents allow the children to dictate how the family is run, what happens then?

• 58:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Terrifying for kids. So, like, to me, this is how I describe it, okay? So imagine you're on a plane, and you're a passenger, okay? Are you actually a pilot? Are you probably trained to be a pilot? Okay, wouldn't you surprise me? Wow, then I'm like, I'm gonna have to pick a different metaphor. Okay, so you're a passenger, and I'm the pilot, and it's very turbulent. And you're looking around, like, all the passengers are, like, freaking out, right? So pilot one would be like classic punishment parent. And they'd get on, it's not called a loudspeaker.

• 59:09Lewis Howes?

  The intercom?

• 59:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  The intercom, thank you. And they'd say, like, everyone back there, stop. You're so dramatic. You're making a big deal of nothing, and you're ruining my flight. Something like that, right? This is what we say to kids, like, you're ruining my dinner out, whatever we say. Meanwhile, if I'm thinking about you, passenger, you're like, first of all, like, does this person know it's pretty turbulent? Like, they didn't even mention that, because it is. Second, like, all it takes is passengers being upset to kind of make my pilot, like, go off the deep end, like

• 59:37Lewis Howes?

  That's scary.

• 59:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're more scared. Okay. But pilot two is the opposite extreme. Everyone back there is scared, and, and you know what? It is scary, and I'm just gonna open the cockpit door. If anyone wants to come in here and take over, be my guest. Terrifying.

• 59:57Lewis Howes?

  Terrifying.

• 59:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Where we're like, your feelings were just contagious. And that's what happens, right? Where someone's like, I don't want, I don't want, I don't, I wanna watch one more show. I wanna watch one more show. Now, if as a parent, you think, you know what? I don't care about having them watch another show. I thought about it. I am changing my decision because I made that shift. Kids can smell, and they know, whether it's that or everything, they're like, oh, okay, I guess, I guess you can go to bed late because tomorrow we'll go, oh, okay, fine. And a kid feels like you open the cockpit door.

• 1:00:33Lewis Howes?

  You influence, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And now they can make big decisions. That is actually terrifying for a kid, because they feel like they don't have a leader. They don't have a pilot.

• 1:00:42Lewis Howes?

  Kids love boundaries, don't they?

• 1:00:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  They love boundaries. It would be like if your pilot was like, we have to make an emergency landing. And everyone's like, no, I don't wanna land in Denver. And if I was like, okay, forget it.

• 1:00:52Lewis Howes?

  We'll just crash.

• 1:00:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Exactly. You're like, just, right? So the third pilot to me is the essence of sturdy leadership, which to me are those pillars. Validating other people's feelings and staying connected to your own role through your boundaries. And to me, the pilot you wanna hear there is, I hear that everyone's freaking out. You're right, I hear you, it's very turbulent.

• 1:01:11Lewis Howes?

  Stay calm.

• 1:01:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And even if it's a pilot, you don't think it's that turbulent? You can still say, I recognize it's turbulent. Everyone's upset, you know, you guys do your thing. If you need to scream, it's fine. I'm about to get off and go do my job. I've done this a million times, and I'm gonna land us in Los Angeles. I'll see you on the ground.

• 1:01:28Lewis Howes?

  Let's go.

• 1:01:29Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Let's friggin' go, right? And you're like, why am I calm? Nothing around me changed.

• 1:01:34Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:01:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But I am calm. And to me, like, you want a leader who sees that your feelings are real and is not infected by them. And the only thing that stops that infection or contagion is a boundary.

• 1:01:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:01:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And the ability to know, I am not my kid. Those are their feelings. And empathy for feelings requires boundaries. Because if you're not having up a boundary, you're not empathizing with your kid, you're actually kind of what we're talking about. You're kind of responding to the way that feeling came into your body. That's not empathy.

• 1:02:13Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 1:02:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? Boundaries are actually what allow you to say to a kid who's upset about the cook grilled cheese, even though, by the way, you're not making a new one. Or say to the kid when the TV time is over, I know you really wish you could watch another show. It's so hard to stop. And when they say, so I can, you say, oh, sweetie, no. No, no, no, my number one job is to keep you safe. Part of keeping you safe is making key decisions, like bedtime. Bedtime is absolutely now. You can tell me the show you wanna watch tomorrow, I'll write it down. I get it, this isn't what you wanted. Do you see, there's like this bounty, I'm validating. But like, I would say, my kid's feelings don't dictate my boundaries. And my boundaries don't dictate my kid's feelings. They just kind of, they coexist.

• 1:02:54Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Why is it so hard for parents to create boundaries with their kids?

• 1:02:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So first of all, we don't define what boundaries are. And we get it wrong. So boundaries are what we tell someone we will do. And they require the other person to do nothing. This is true in adulthood too, all the time. So like, with my kid in the couch, this is a good example. And I have a kid like this, because my three kids are totally different. And one of them is 0% people pleasing. And he's just like, he's, I delight in him because he's my third. He's like, he likes to test things out. He's gonna be a leader one day, I get it, you know? But I would look at him, and I'd be like, hey, stop jumping, let's say it is stopped. At my house, people jump on the couch, I don't really care. But let's say it was that, or it was dangerous, there was a glass table. Sweetie, I need you to jump, stop jumping on the couch, you can jump on the floor. And then he looks at me, and he starts jumping.

• 1:03:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I say, you violated my boundaries. He doesn't, he doesn't respect my, he doesn't respect me. We always like center ourselves, right? Now, if I have a kid who I know is kind of like a pushing the limit kid, not because they're bad, because that's how they're learning about their world, their temperament.

• 1:03:59Lewis Howes?

  Their temperament, yeah, their personality.

• 1:04:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  This is not a boundary. It's not a boundary. That's a request. Because the success of what I said is dependent on someone else. When we make a request of someone, which we have to do, we can't always set a boundary. Right? We have to be in a relationship with them. We have to understand they have the right coping abilities. We have to like know that they might

• 1:04:19Lewis Howes?

  Decline, they might decline.

• 1:04:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  They might decline, probably not because they don't respect me, you know? Like, it's just for other reasons. This is a boundary. And again, this is where good insight is anything but soft. After he doesn't listen, hey, sweetie, it looks like you're having a hard time getting down off the couch. I'm gonna walk over to you. And if by the time I get there, you're not off, I'm gonna put my hands around you. I'm gonna pick you up, and I'm gonna put you on the floor, and you can, you can jump over there. That is a boundary, because, and I can even test it. Did I tell my kid what I will do? I did. Does it require my kid to do nothing? It does. And just to get real, like, when I do that with my son, he does not say to me, like, thank you for your sturdy leadership. Like, he does not

• 1:04:58Lewis Howes?

  You get no praise, no

• 1:05:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Zero, I get a tantrum.

• 1:05:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And on some level, I think, again, we wish as parents that when we like have these amazing interventions, our kids are gonna like clap it up.

• 1:05:07Lewis Howes?

  I love you, mommy, thank you so much.

• 1:05:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right. They're not. We have to validate ourselves. Hard for people, definitely hard for women. I know I'm doing my role.

• 1:05:15Lewis Howes?

  Why is it hard for women to validate themselves and not want validation from their children?

• 1:05:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, we do want validation. Why is it

• 1:05:22Lewis Howes?

  Why is it hard for them to, to, I mean, validate themselves when they don't ever get validation from their kids?

• 1:05:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right. So I think women and many people, so it's not just women, but let's just say especially little girls. We are taught in families, we're taught by society, to gaze out before we gaze in. To me, the essence of confidence is like your ability to gaze in before you gaze out. Like, what is going on for me? At least, what do I need? Right? But we are taught to gaze out, and we are

• 1:05:49Lewis Howes?

  Seek validation from the outside.

• 1:05:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  To say, like, I can fill myself up outside. Who am I? How do you look at me? Are you happy with me? Are you telling me I'm doing a good job? Am I making you happy? Even just like classic and like, I always think about people, I used to see teens in my practice. And be like, does he like me? I want him to like me. I hope he likes me. And they, and I was like, what do you like about this dude? Like, by the way, he sounds like a douchebag. Like, what? And they were like, and literally, I remember one being like, what? Do I like? It was

• 1:06:21Lewis Howes?

  They didn't know.

• 1:06:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  A foreign question.

• 1:06:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:06:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Especially now, I'm brought up, like, what do I like? I mean, I guess I like the things on Instagram that got the most likes, because they told me those were, that's not what you like. That's not what you liked about the picture. The gazing out culture is just massive now, but especially women. And we don't realize that by the time we become parents. No one says, I need my kid's approval. Everyone's like, of course I don't. But we get sucked back into the same circuits. So when we set a boundary and our kid protests, unconsciously, what happens in our body is, see, I've done it wrong. And then

• 1:06:57Lewis Howes?

  Because I don't get the result.

• 1:06:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We look for our kid's approval. We look for, right? And we say things like that. Don't you think it's time to go to bed? Come on, you've been up so late.

• 1:07:07Lewis Howes?

  It's like asking for, you know, permission or approval from them.

• 1:07:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It's like the pilot saying, like, don't you think we should make an emergency landing? Like, right? And you're like, oh my Right, that's and then that's of course, it actually leads to kind of quote worse behavior in kids, not because kids are trying to manipulate us at all. Imagine being on the plane and hearing that from your pilot, there'd be worse behavior from pastors because they feel so much more unsafe.

• 1:07:32Lewis Howes?

  They feel out of control, they want to try to control some situation.

• 1:07:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 1:07:37Lewis Howes?

  Wow. I'm like, I have so many extra questions I want to ask you, but I'm.

• 1:07:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We didn't get to number three.

• 1:07:43Lewis Howes?

  Okay, let's get to three, because.

• 1:07:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We don't have to ever get there.

• 1:07:47Lewis Howes?

  So we shouldn't, so we shouldn't, we shouldn't punish.

• 1:07:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So, yes, to me.

• 1:07:51Lewis Howes?

  And is there ever a time to punish?

• 1:07:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean, I really am not so rigid, I try not to be so rigid, so is there, but to me, it's like, the question of should we punish, to me, brings you back for another key framework, the same team framework, and to me, again, same thing at work, same thing in romantic relationships, when you're mad at someone, or when you're in a conflict, or when you feel like someone did something to you, assuming it's a person that you want to be in a relationship with, if it's not, this doesn't apply, if they're toxic, but if it's someone you're like, in general, we have a good relationship, there's two ways approaching it, one is, and it's kind of like how we're sitting, it's me against you, and Louis is the problem. So let's say like, I arrived to your podcast studio, and you were like 30 minutes late, I'm like so pissed, and I want to tell you, like, how could you be late, I flew in for this podcast, by the way, it didn't happen for everyone, all right, but let's say it

• 1:08:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  did.

• 1:08:39Lewis Howes?

  You did fly in.

• 1:08:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, no, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm simulating, the same thing, like, so I could either talk to you, like I'm looking at you, like you are the problem, and you know what that would sound like, that was so rude, you know, and it can't happen again, or, we can talk to someone, like, me and that person are sitting on the same side of the table, and together, we are looking at a problem, and then we'd say, hey, what, what went on there, and by the way, I know I'm coming back next week, and I just, I'm sure together, like, neither of us want this to happen, did I not understand the time, let's just figure this out. So when you say, when I hear parents say, when is time to punish, to me, punishment is a me against you framework, I never want to punish someone I like, I just don't like them in that moment, like, I've never had the thought, I never want to quote, give someone a consequence, now, that doesn't mean there aren't boundaries I'm going to

• 1:09:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  set, but when I hear that question, it makes me think about the mindset they're in, and so, to me, the answer is, that mindset isn't going to be effective for the goal I think you're trying to achieve, which is change, so we, we only pull interventions from the mindset bucket we're in, and so when I notice parents speaking in a way that I really feel like is in an unhelpful, ineffective mindset bucket, I don't think, what can we do in that bucket, I think we're in, we're in the wrong bucket, let's, let's get you to do a different one.

• 1:09:52Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:09:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm happy to walk through what we do instead, because it's not just like kumbaya, so, let's say it's like my kid jumping on the couch, or let's say something more egregious, like.

• 1:10:01Lewis Howes?

  Let's say they punched someone, or they, they bullied someone, or they, whatever, something.

• 1:10:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right, let's say they bullied someone, and I was like, I really had evidence that my kid was like, going up to this kid, and they're like, you're a loser, and nobody likes you, I don't know, something like that.

• 1:10:13Lewis Howes?

  Someone filmed it, who knows, yeah.

• 1:10:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Exactly, sure, I guess this happened, okay, first, I have to be like, how could this even be me and my kid against a problem, and some, I think the best way I do that, if I'm realistic with myself, is just like, we're all capable of all the things, and I'll be like, what would make me say something so mean to someone, and I'll say, what, and I might be like, well, maybe I felt really insecure, maybe I felt slighted by them, maybe I've developed this role in a group, or I feel like I have to be this like tough guy, I don't know, but like, I guess that could happen.

• 1:10:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And if I punish my kid, and I'm like, I can't believe you did that, it's not within the values of our family, and like, here's your punishment, first of all, our kids respond to the version of themselves, we reflect back, so I'm mirroring back to my kid, like, you're a bad kid.

• 1:10:54Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:10:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And then I'm asking them to have behavior that would come from feeling like a good kid, like, you have to feel good inside before you act good on the outside.

• 1:11:01Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 1:11:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Come on.

• 1:11:03Lewis Howes?

  Come on now.

• 1:11:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right, you do, so, again, just counterproductive.

• 1:11:05Lewis Howes?

  You have to feel good inside.

• 1:11:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Before you can act good on the outside, I know act good isn't like good English, but it just like.

• 1:11:11Lewis Howes?

  No, it is, that's great.

• 1:11:16Lewis Howes?

  So if we feel bad inside, it's really hard to act good on the outside.

• 1:11:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, like, think about your boss, always being like, you're late, and you're the worst, and you don't do good presentations, you come to work the next being like, I'm going to crush it, like, you're, you're paralyzed by, because, by the way they're reflecting back who you are, if they're an important person in your life, right? So, what would I say to my kid, let me just be clear, I'm not saying, I would never say, oh, that probably was a hard day, and there were reasons why you did that.

• 1:11:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you wouldn't validate the behavior.

• 1:11:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I, I, I wouldn't end there and say, now, let's go out to dinner, okay, I wouldn't, like, I wouldn't be like, you know, cool, here's what I'd probably say, I heard about what happened at school, let me just start there, because, something happened at school today, never ask a question to any human being that you know the answer to, because they know it's not a question, it's a criticism veiled with a question mark, and that is infuriating, so, a question is only a question when you don't know the answer, so I would never start that, I mean, I would try not to, I'd say, I heard what happened at school, and I heard this thing, I saw this video, and like, look, before you go further, and I would say this, you might push back, you're a good kid, I, like, if I can't hold that

• 1:12:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I have a good kid who did a bad thing, why in heck would my kid be able to do that?

• 1:12:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:12:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Because in order to reflect about bad behavior, and understand it and change, you have to hold on to good identity, if those two things are collapsed, there's no good centered self to do the reflecting about the behavior, the bad behavior became of a bad person, you literally can't learn.

• 1:12:51Lewis Howes?

  If someone doesn't believe they're a good person, how do you build a good identity?

• 1:12:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, I think you have to start by noticing all the ways you use your behavior to define who you are, it's what you did, and it's very important data, to be like, what's going on for me, what am I seeking, what am I missing, but if you can't separate good identity, which does not justify bad behavior, it just creates a framework to understand and change bad behavior, you can't change, so I would, I know you're a good kid, and like, I know, like, that's not, at least in theory, the way you want to talk to other kids, like, I know that, which lets me know also, like, there's a whole situation going on, I don't know if it's anything about that kid, I don't know if you've had a bad week, I don't know if, I'm just making this up, I don't know if you've noticed, um, I've

• 1:13:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  been saying some nasty words to your dads in our arguments, and you've maybe, you know, been kind of stressed about that and picked up on that, right, like, let's be honest, they pick up on everything, or, you know, I don't know, but I know there's a reason, and let me be clear, that doesn't mean it's okay, and I don't even think I have to say to you, because I know you know it's not okay, but we're going to work together to actually figure this out, because I know you're capable of being in a tricky situation with a kid, and acting in a way you're proud of.

• 1:14:07Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:14:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, that's what I would say, and then I would actually do it, and then I would, what we miss out is, I would simulate it, why would a kid say that, maybe this kid is a new kid, and let's say my son was always best kid in basketball, and kind of head of the group, and all of a sudden, this kid came in, and.

• 1:14:21Lewis Howes?

  He's a star.

• 1:14:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  There are reasons why we do the things we do, it doesn't make them okay, but there are reasons, so, I might say, look, we're going to do something, and then I would get a little like, not harsh, but firm, and if my son's like, I don't know, can I just play Fortnite, I don't want to do this, I'd, right, I'd be like, I'm just going to say this one time, you literally have to go through this with me, before you play Fortnite, like, that's not a threat, my most important job is helping you in life, and I know this is going to help, and so even if you roll your eyes, we will do this, that's your decision, it's firm, but it's not mean, it's from a place of help, and then I'd say, we're going to do something, this is going to sound really weird, sweetie, um, we're going to go to the basketball court, and I'm going to heckle you, and say some mean.

• 1:15:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow, put them through the experience.

• 1:15:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Sure, isn't that what we do?

• 1:15:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you need to.

• 1:15:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Sports, like, right, right, and so I'm going to go.

• 1:15:10Lewis Howes?

  You need to prepare for these challenges.

• 1:15:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right, and what I'd say to him is, I don't expect you, in that situation, to go like this, we get these most unrealistic.

• 1:15:18Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I'm happy.

• 1:15:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Um, yeah, exactly, like, and I want you to say to this kid, no, but we might, I would prompt him, and, and what I want you to do, and I would get up, is instead of moving toward me, when I say that, you're going to turn your body, and you're going to walk away, because if you teach kids when they're mad to give space, they're going to make, they're going to literally have more time to make better decisions.

• 1:15:41Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:15:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay?

• 1:15:43Lewis Howes?

  And they can react as quickly.

• 1:15:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And then if we want to get to the heart of why kids say mean things to bullies or something, they're having a hard time regulating something themselves, so I might give my kid a mantra, too, when they're walking away, maybe, and I always give mantras that get to the core.

• 1:15:55Lewis Howes?

  Stay calm, or, yeah, I got this, or whatever.

• 1:15:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Maybe even like, write that, or, I'm valuable even when I'm not the best basketball player.

• 1:16:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow, yeah, that's good.

• 1:16:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Get to the core, and we're going to practice that, and I'm making him practice it with me.

• 1:16:07Lewis Howes?

  I'm, I'm so glad you're saying this, Dr. Becky, because I truly believe life is beautiful, and wonderful, and there's so much magic and awe, and so much to be grateful for, there's so much beauty in the world, and I think life is an incredible gift, but I also know life is so tough, and there's a lot of tough moments, tough situations, tough seasons that we all go through, from childhood, adolescence, to adulthood, and it can feel daunting, it can feel so heavy, so, so much pressure, so much, so much confusion

• 1:16:46Lewis Howes?

  at times, that I truly believe what you just said is the key to living a beautiful life, is putting ourselves in the most uncomfortable, challenging scenarios and situations, and preparing for tough moments, so that when tough moments come, they're not so tough, I truly believe that, and I think a lot of people, if parents heard what you just said right now, and actually did that. They would raise incredible human beings who are prepared for the sadness and the suffering that happens in the world frequently, so that they can see things as a gift and beautiful

• 1:17:25Lewis Howes?

  and not suffer in the sadness. And I think sports gave me that opportunity, that gift. You know, you hear about Navy SEALs, like they, they have a game plan, but they prepare for all the worst scenarios. They don't just say, we're going to prepare for the best. They think the best outcome is going to happen. This is exactly what we're going to plan for, and it's going to happen. They got a plan for, what if I lose my weapon? What if I'm trapped? What if this? What if I'm upside down, hanging, and I can't, I'm unconscious? How do I get out of a situation calmly?

• 1:17:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:57Lewis Howes?

  Or with enough where I cannot freak out, but I can make a decision and act. And I think we've lost the ability, most people have lost the ability on how to handle challenging situations and play more of a victim, unfortunately, than a victor in their own life. And the way you just said right there, I hope parents listen to that and try it with their kid. It's probably the worst thing to hear, like, I'm going to take you to the basketball court and heckle you. But coaches would create scenarios where they would put loudspeakers on the fields and be like, we're going to go into a tough road game, and these fans are not going to be cheering you on. They're going to be screaming at you, booing at you,

• 1:18:38Lewis Howes?

  throwing stuff on the field, calling you names, trying to get under your skin. They're going to punch you in bad places. They're going to do bad things to you. And you can play victim and say, ref, and all these people, why are they doing this to me? Or you can rise above it and be prepared for it. And it's doing it in a loving context, I think, is what we need to do. Not like just putting them down and diminishing kids, but like saying, this is what we're going to create. I love you, but I want to create this scenario for you.

• 1:19:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, and I wouldn't like, to me, the heckling, like, it's going to be humorous, because my son's going to be like, my mom's like saying random stuff, just so you know how to, you know. But, you know, someone, and we, someone said this to me, it's not, you know, and I think it's so powerful, and I talk about a lot of pilot metaphors, and you were talking about the Navy SEALs, that in moments of challenge, we don't rise to the occasion, we fall to the level of our training.

• 1:19:26Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:19:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And this goes back to parents needing resources, so that in those moments of challenge, their level of training has, you know, risen.

• 1:19:36Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. Well, you talked about in the beginning, having the resources and the tools is the first step for parents, developing certain skills. And that might mean you have to, you know, get your book and read it 10 times until you start to pick up one or two skills that you've never learned before. So I'm just really grateful that you're here, and I'm grateful that you decided to put your content online and bring this message to the masses, because I think parents are scared to raise bad kids. And I think parents feel insecure, they don't feel well-equipped, especially with social media and, you know, drugs in schools and shootings in schools and just insecurity, all the different stuff

• 1:20:17Lewis Howes?

  that's happening in schools, that we don't have time to get into today. But I want people to get your book, Good Inside, A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. And I think a lot of people in general never felt like they're a good person, growing up. I'd speak for myself, but I feel like there's so many people that are craving to feel good. And so, again, I know that you're a teacher for parents to help their kids, but really you're a teacher for humans to heal and become better leaders in their life. So I want to acknowledge you for the gift you bring, the consistency you bring to add value to people with your content, with your book. I know you have an app that also helps parents learn

• 1:21:00Lewis Howes?

  these skills and tools with a lot of different AI and all these different things you guys are bringing into it. So I want people to follow you on social media. Your Instagram is amazing. I love it, because I feel like it's relevant for becoming a better human being and a better leader in your life. I want people to get your book, Good Inside. I think it's required reading for every parent or want-to-be parent, so get Good Inside. And how else can we be of support to you besides going to goodinside.com, getting a book, and checking out your app?

• 1:21:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean, to me, conversations like this are just fantastic. I appreciate, I appreciate this. Thank you for helping, you know, ideas get spread, because other people also help spread them. So I love, like, the excitement you bring to these ideas, and this has been amazing. So I have no, I have no asks.

• 1:21:45Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it. I feel like we're going to have to have you back on at some point, because I have so many other questions I wanted to ask you. But this has been really powerful, even just those three things you talked about. I'm so glad we're talking about this. I believe you. Tell me more. It's really powerful. And that's also something you could do in an intimate relationship. You know, when you don't want to have challenging conversations, if you actually did that with your partner, man, you're going to feel a sense of peace and relief on the other side, because you went through the challenging conversation together, as opposed to avoiding it, or being distracted, or whatever it might be. And that's hard when your attachment style is insecure or avoidant. So you've got to learn to heal, so you can have a more secure attachment style in all your relationships with intimacy

• 1:22:28Lewis Howes?

  and with your kids. So much to always learn. But again, we'll have to have you back on to talk about more. Couple final questions for you to finish the conversation. This is our rapid fire. No, just kidding. Just kidding.

• 1:22:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Should I do push-ups? Get ready.

• 1:22:45Lewis Howes?

  There's a question I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want to live, Dr. Becky, but it's your last day on earth, many years away. And for whatever reason, in this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your content with you, all of your Instagram content, whatever content you create in the future, your books, this interview is done. So no one has access to anything you've ever put out in the world. But on the last day, you get to leave three things behind, three things you know to be true, that you would leave behind for us to have access to. What would be those three truths, or three lessons that you would share?

• 1:23:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, I have two. So let's see how we get to the third. One is that we are good inside, and our good identity is separate from any bad behavior. Number two is, it is never too late. And the single most important relationship strategy in the world is repair. And three is that the only real strategy you have with your kid is connection.

• 1:23:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we didn't even get into how to repair, which you talk about in your book. So that's another reason for people to get your book and to have you back on to really dive into.

• 1:24:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And listen to my TED Talks, that's what it's about.

• 1:24:05Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. It's about really how to repair.

• 1:24:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 1:24:08Lewis Howes?

  When there's a breakdown, or when there's an upset, when there's, when you scream at your kid, when you yell at them. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:24:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think it's a combination of internal accomplishment and external impact. So if I think about greatness, I think a lot about this concept or feeling of being lit up inside. It's how I feel talking to you and talking about these ideas, putting them out there. But I think greatness is when you feel so lit up inside by something, that it drives you, and so much that you can't contain it. And so it kind of explodes out of you with joy and authenticity and belief, so much that it ends up igniting something that is in someone else and lights them up. And it has this kind of generative movement to it.

• 1:25:00Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful. Dr. Becky, thanks so much. Appreciate you.

• 1:25:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:25:05Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now, because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you, and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening,

• 1:25:50Lewis Howes?

  then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.