Carl Rinsch: Lights, Camera, Fraud | 232

Carl Rinsch had everything Hollywood loves in an up-and-coming director: talent, charisma, and the ability to make people believe. His obsessive perfectionism was written off as the mark of a visionary. But when Netflix handed him millions for a TV series and the pandemic kept everyone at a distance, Carl went on a spree – cars, crypto, luxury mattresses – torching the money and every relationship he’d ever built. By the end, no one was buying what Carl was selling. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scaachi Koul?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:08Sarah Hagi?

  A heads up to our listeners. This episode contains descriptions of domestic abuse. Please listen with care.

• 0:21Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, we've both worked in television at some point, or know people who do. And one thing everyone can agree on is that it's impossible to get anything made. Oh, yeah.

• 0:32Scaachi Koul?

  People love to not make anything in these industries. They are addicted to not making stuff.

• 0:38Sarah Hagi?

  And I think most people think it's just lesser-known filmmakers who have it hard. But even really popular, highly-regarded directors can't get funding for anything sometimes.

• 0:49Scaachi Koul?

  Don't forget, Sarah, Zach Braff had to crowdfund for one of his movies.

• 0:53Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, let's not forget that. Today, I'm going to tell you about an ambitious filmmaker who had the type of unearned goodwill most aspiring artists could only dream of. As in, he basically had a blank check to do whatever he wanted. And like so many auteurs before him, nothing was enough. But instead of reevaluating his failures, he doubled down and scammed.

• 1:22Sarah Hagi?

  It's late 2019, and Gabriela Rosies is pacing the living room of her Los Angeles home. A two-bedroom on Mulholland Drive that costs $14,000 a month in rent. Gabriela is in her early 30s, a former model from Uruguay with long, brown hair that cascades over her shoulders. She seems to be living a dream life. But right now, she's worried about the man she's sharing it with. Her husband, Carl, is a director, born and raised in Los Angeles and almost a decade older than her. Gabriela and Carl just wrapped filming on a sci-fi series called White Horse that they sold to Netflix for $61 million.

• 2:05Sarah Hagi?

  Carl directed while Gabriela was an executive producer and costume designer. The project has been their main focus since they got married five years ago. But lately, Carl's been off, acting strange and erratic, and it's putting everything they've worked for at risk. That's why Gabriela's not alone in her living room today. She's joined by one of Carl's brothers, several members of their film crew, and a behavioral health consultant. And Keanu Reeves.

• 2:39Scaachi Koul?

  Thank God. I have to say, I feel immediately safer. Narratively and physically.

• 2:46Sarah Hagi?

  Keanu acted in Carl's first film and has been close with the couple ever since. And today, they're all gathered here to stage an intervention. When Carl walks in, Gabriela and his loved ones explain their concerns. First, there's the drug abuse. They suspect Carl is misusing his Vyvanse prescription. He says he uses it to treat his ADHD. But some of his friends believe he's exhibiting all the signs of overuse: mania, delirium, even psychosis. Then, there was his behavior on set. He was irritable and aggressive, screaming at crew members and cursing people out. He was even accused of harassment and abuse during filming.

• 3:30Sarah Hagi?

  And then, there's the way he treats Gabriela. Carl has screamed at her, thrown things at her, and punched walls next to her. At one point, he was so paranoid, he allegedly accused her of plotting to have him assassinated. Carl's brother and Keanu say they're worried he's losing his grip on reality. And Carl appears to listen. According to witnesses, he agrees to let a sober companion stay with him. Gabriela exhales. Maybe this intervention will work. Or, hear me out. She gives up on this guy and marries Keanu. Huh? Ugh, Sachi, if only this was that kind of episode. Also, Carl's cooperation is fleeting.

• 4:14Sarah Hagi?

  He allegedly kicks the sober companion out of the house after just a few days. Gabriela is left wondering if the man she married will ever return. And unfortunately, he won't. Carl is about to descend into a state of pure delusion, where aliens speak to him, where Netflix funds become his personal piggy bank, and where the line between his sci-fi fantasy world and reality starts to disappear.

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• 5:14Speaker 07

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• 6:03Sarah Hagi?

  From Audible Originals, I'm Sarah Haggie. And I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 6:17Sarah Hagi?

  Carl Rinsch had everything Hollywood loves in an up-and-coming director: talent, charisma, and the ability to make people believe in the stories he told. He was also an obsessive perfectionist with an uncompromising vision. And for a while, his behavior was excused as that of a demanding auteur. In the peak TV gold rush of the 2010s, streamers were throwing millions at creatives. It often didn't matter how creatives like Carl behaved as long as there was a chance they'd deliver a hit. But the pandemic brought the streaming industry back to earth, while Carl ascended into full-fledged fantasy. He blew millions from Netflix on cars, cryptocurrency, and luxury mattresses, and in the process,

• 6:59Sarah Hagi?

  alienated everyone who'd ever believed in him. Carl wanted to make the next big-screen epic, but what he got was an all-time epic fail. This is Carl Rinsch: Lights, Camera, Fraud.

• 7:19Sarah Hagi?

  It's the early 90s in California's San Fernando Valley. Summer here means temperatures surging up to 100 degrees. Teenage Carl and his best friend Tim are sweating through their shirts as they trudge up the driveway of yet another home. They're going door-to-door, selling plumbing supplies. They're not in it for the love of waste management. They're raising money for their actual passion: making short films. Even as a teenager, Carl takes his craft very seriously. He sees filmmaking as a calling and wants to make films like Fellini or Kurosawa, real art that people remember after they watch it. He's all about artistic merit, not fame and fortune.

• 8:04Sarah Hagi?

  But that might also be because Carl is, by all accounts, pretty privileged. He's working hard to help fund his short films, but he's also the son of a very successful insurance executive. And that gives Carl the freedom to dream big. Luckily, Carl also has genuine talent. When he's only 14, his first short film gets accepted into both the New York and Telluride Film Festivals. By the time he starts college at Brown University, he has a reputation as a quirky but dedicated artist. He's so passionate and intense that he often holes up for weeks at a time to finish his projects with zero distractions.

• 8:48Sarah Hagi?

  That's probably how he completes his thesis: a series of fake commercials for real corporations like Tampax, Pepsi, and Calvin Klein. His goal is to explore the marriage between consumerism and art. But he also might be doing something a little more strategic. Because in 2000, after graduating, Carl sends a reel of those fake ads to Ridley Scott's production company. Ridley Scott is the big-deal director of movies like Alien, Thelma and Louise, and Gladiator. But he got his start directing commercials, and Carl hopes to do the same, by learning from him and making industry connections. Ridley must have been impressed because he hires Carl without ever meeting him in person.

• 9:32Sarah Hagi?

  And so, at 22, Carl moves back to Los Angeles and starts doing legit commercial work for companies like Heineken, BMW, and Mercedes.

• 9:43Scaachi Koul?

  Hey, that's a pretty cool way to get a job and a cool job to have. At 22. Yeah.

• 9:50Sarah Hagi?

  Carl quickly becomes known for his innovative storytelling and cutting-edge visual effects. His ads are cinematic, like mini-movies. But his perfectionism is intensifying. Left to his own devices, he'll spend hours obsessing over a single frame. Ridley ends up taking Carl under his wing and becomes a mentor to him. And their bond grows even stronger when Carl starts dating Ridley's daughter. Carl has a mentor, a pedigree, and he's about to get an opportunity that could be a major step toward directing feature films. He's on the doorstep of Hollywood's success, as long as he can stay out of his own way.

• 10:35Sarah Hagi?

  It's 2010, and Carl is in his early 30s now. His hair is slicked back into a man bun, and he seems to have a permanent furrowed brow. He's been making commercials for about a decade, and it's paying off. With Ridley Scott's backing, Carl's name has been circulating in Hollywood, and he's in the running to direct several high-profile genre movies. Warner Brothers is considering him for a remake of Logan's Run. There are talks of him directing X-Men Origins: First Class for 20th Century Fox. Ridley thinks Carl should direct a prequel to Alien, his own 1979 sci-fi classic. And Universal needs a director for a big-budget movie called 47: Ronin.

• 11:19Sarah Hagi?

  It's based on a true story about a group of rogue samurai in 18th-century Japan with fantastical elements added in, like dragons and magic. Keanu Reeves is attached, along with an ensemble of Japanese stars.

• 11:35Sarah Hagi?

  Universal wants to hear Carl's take. He's thrilled and determined to get this job. He arrives at the meeting super-prepared. He brings detailed storyboards and a thorough schedule. If they give him the green light, he's ready to get started today. Carl's great in the room, charming, persuasive, confident. And most importantly, he understands the studio's vision for their next big blockbuster. Universal wants this to be their version of The Last Samurai, the hugely-successful Tom Cruise film, and Carl says he can deliver. After all, his entire career has been about proving that good art and commercial appeal

• 12:20Sarah Hagi?

  can coexist. The execs love his energy. Universal offers him the directing job. They slate the movie for a holiday release in 2012 and give him a budget of $175 million.

• 12:37Scaachi Koul?

  Ooh, that is too much money. That's too much money. Because now you have to make a movie that makes at least that much money. That is really setting yourself up for a rough time.

• 12:48Sarah Hagi?

  As a debut. Yeah, it is, like, impossible to imagine that happening today. The buzz is real. But then, one by one, the other projects he'd been circling fail to materialize. They either go to more experienced directors or get dropped altogether. In the end, Carl is left with one shot to prove himself: 47: Ronin. Carl has to translate his slick commercial style into a major motion picture. But with hundreds of millions of dollars riding on his ideas, the pressure will be unlike anything he's ever experienced. And how he handles it will shape the rest of his career and his life.

• 13:34Sarah Hagi?

  It's January 2012 at Universal Studios in Los Angeles. Executives are watching a cut of 47: Ronin, and they are not happy. When Universal hired Carl, they believed his training under Ridley Scott would prepare him for the big leagues. Instead, the second Carl got into the director's chair, it seemed like the power went straight to his head. The movie is a mess, and Carl can't rein in his creative impulses. He's trying to balance the true Japanese history with CGI effects and fantasy elements, but it's all too muddled. Carl later describes it as "Kurosawa on meth."

• 14:14Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I don't know that you're gonna make $175 million back on Kurosawa on meth. Although, it does sound interesting. It sounds interesting in the right circumstance, but does it sound like a blockbuster?

• 14:26Sarah Hagi?

  No, no, no. No. Reports emerge that the production has turned into a nightmare and that Carl has crumbled under the weight of the shoot. By the time editing begins back in Los Angeles, Donna Langley, the chairman of Universal Pictures, has reportedly lost all patience with Carl. His perfectionism and indecision have cost the studio more than they wanted to spend. The film's budget has reportedly swelled from $175 to $225 million, and the release date has been pushed back twice. At this point, they just need to finish the movie. It's rumored that Donna kicks Carl out of the editing room and works with the editor herself.

• 15:10Sarah Hagi?

  But Universal must know they have a flop on their hands, so they decide to take a write-down, a move where, for tax purposes, a studio publicly acknowledges a movie isn't going to make as much as initially projected. It's embarrassing for everyone involved, Carl most of all. Before the public has seen a single frame, the studio is telling the world that his big debut is a disaster.

• 15:36Scaachi Koul?

  This is so embarrassing. Can you imagine being humiliated like this on a tax level, a public tax level?

• 15:44Sarah Hagi?

  It really does sound like the worst type of stress dream. And, as expected, 47: Ronin has an abysmal opening at the box office. In its first five days, it barely makes $20 million. One reviewer for the LA Times said it was, quote, "an overlong, underwhelming movie

• 16:04Scaachi Koul?

  that certainly wasn't worth the wait."

• 16:07Sarah Hagi?

  On Rotten Tomatoes, it has a score of 16%. Carl's first big shot has gone about as bad as it possibly could. If Carl has any hopes of repairing his reputation, he's gonna have to come up with something so original that Hollywood will be willing to overlook this massive failure.

• 16:31Sarah Hagi?

  It's January 2014, a month after 47: Ronin's release, in a church in Montevideo, Uruguay. Lilies and candles are everywhere. An organ plays, and wedding guests stand as Gabriela Rossi's betancor walks down the aisle. She's 28, with her dark hair and an updo and a veil trailing behind her. At the altar, Carl is waiting. Gabriela met Carl four years earlier when he was shooting a commercial in Mexico. She was a model on the set. Eventually, he asked her to join him in London while he shot 47: Ronin. After filming wrapped, Gabriela followed him to Los Angeles.

• 17:14Sarah Hagi?

  After about a year, she decided to give up her modeling career to support Carl. So far, all the sacrifice has been worth it, and it means the world to her that they're back in Uruguay getting married. Some of their friends from the States even made the trip, including Keanu Reeves. Gabriela's friends with Keanu now as well, but that's about the only good thing that came out of 47: Ronin. Fortunately, Carl has a safety net. When his father passed about a decade earlier, he left Carl a $4.8 million inheritance. So Carl can still bankroll their lifestyle, which will eventually include first-class flights, five-star resorts, a housekeeper who comes six days a week, and a personal

• 17:58Sarah Hagi?

  assistant and personal trainer for Gabriela. Carl is persona non grata in Hollywood right now, but he's determined to prove he's worth a second chance. And he seems to be taking a lesson from his teenage days: come up with a great, original idea, fund it yourself, and try to get people on board based on artistic merit. He wants to make a TV show with 13 short episodes, each between four and 14 minutes long, so about two hours of content total. It's like a film, just in tiny chunks that are way easier to fund piecemeal. After the wedding, Gabriela and Carl fully commit to working on the project.

• 18:40Sarah Hagi?

  It's called White Horse, and it's about the battle between humans and artificial humans. Sachi, can you read this quote from Carl explaining the origin of the idea? Oh, brother. Yeah.

• 18:53Scaachi Koul?

  He said, quote, "I thought, would it be possible for us to ever communicate with God? And if so, could we do it through technology? So is AI in the future going to allow us to communicate with God? And that was sort of the big idea, that we would need somebody in between us and the highest powers." Hey, this is stupid. This is psychosis. It's total nonsense.

• 19:17Sarah Hagi?

  But also, this is before people were talking about AI the way they are now. So I feel like he thinks it's probably the most original idea in the world. And Carl plans to direct while Gabriela takes on multiple roles, including executive producer, bookkeeper, and costume designer. They can only afford a couple of other crew members because they're self-funding the whole thing, presumably so they have complete creative control. But that means stretching their money. So they decide to film in Europe and Africa, where unions are less powerful, casting/crew rates are lower, and working hours can be longer. But without strict guidelines, Gabriela has trouble reining Carl in.

• 20:00Sarah Hagi?

  He doesn't always follow things like outlines and schedules. Sometimes, he just says, "Fuck it," and films whatever's in his head without much of a plan. Not only is this unprofessional, it's also dangerous. At one point, while filming in Kenya, Carl insists the cast and crew shoot for 24 hours straight. Later, in Romania, he has a lead actress shoot a scene bare-legged in the snow. It's so cold, she catches hypothermia and has to be rushed to the hospital.

• 20:32Scaachi Koul?

  I'm really tired of the difficult male auteur because it seems like the person he hurts is always like some nice lady he works with. He's never hurting himself.

• 20:43Sarah Hagi?

  It's all about sacrifice and he has to sacrifice the least amount, right? Hmm. As a project's bookkeeper, Gabriella is the first to notice they're running out of money. If they want to keep working on White Horse, they're going to need outside help. And Carl's just gonna have to deal with the compromise and accountability that comes with it. Gabriella and Carl start looking for investors. They line up a big time producer, a billionaire entrepreneur, Carl's agent, and of course, their good friend, Keanu Reeves. All of them see potential in White Horse, especially because the entertainment landscape has shifted. This is the height of Hollywood's streaming frenzy.

• 21:25Sarah Hagi?

  Netflix, Amazon, and HBO are all throwing millions of dollars at fresh new voices, hoping to find the next Game of Thrones or House of Cards. With their new influx of cash, Gabriella and Carl finish the first six episodes. Then, they decide to pitch the project so they can get a big studio or streamer to fund the remaining episodes. Gabriella hopes all the effort has been worth it. She knows this might be their last shot at resurrecting Carl's career. You'd think they'd have trouble convincing a major studio to greenlight this project after the 47 Ronin disaster. But these new streaming services are willing to take risks the traditional Hollywood guard wouldn't.

• 22:08Sarah Hagi?

  And Gabriella and Carl plan to use that to their advantage. But in the process of helping her husband fulfill his dreams, Gabriella is about to watch him become a complete and total nightmare.

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• 23:56Sarah Hagi?

  It's February 2018, and Cindy Holland is sitting in Keanu Reeves's living room reading a draft of the White Horse script, which he's attached to produce. Cindy is the head of original content at Netflix. She has dirty blonde hair and an ever-present pantsuit. She's been at Netflix for 16 years and has overseen big hits like Orange is the New Black, House of Cards, and Stranger Things. And she's always hunting for the next big thing. Cindy already saw a trailer of the first six episodes of the show, which piqued her interest. But now, reading the full season's script, she is genuinely impressed.

• 24:36Sarah Hagi?

  It's well-written, compelling, and most importantly, she can see its franchise potential. Multiple seasons, spinoffs, prequels. This could be her next Stranger Things. Even the short-episode format is intriguing. It's basically Quibi before Quibi was even a thing. Cindy leaves Keanu's house that day, wanting the project for Netflix. But she's not the only one who's interested. Amazon, HBO, Hulu, Apple, and YouTube all put in eight-figure bids on White Horse. Amazon's offer is the highest, and it seems like they've clinched it. But Cindy has one last trick up her sleeve. On a Sunday night, she calls Carl directly.

• 25:20Sarah Hagi?

  She tells him she's willing to pay him millions more than Amazon for White Horse. But more importantly, he can have full control over the final cut of the series. Final cut isn't something studios grant lightly, especially not to a director with Carl's track record. But Cindy's thinking big, and it works. Carl says yes.

• 25:45Scaachi Koul?

  Uh, yeah, I bet he did. That is the sweetest deal I've ever heard in my life, for Carl.

• 25:51Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and let's just say, there's a reason why people aren't doing that. With her eagerness for the next big thing, Cindy overlooks some major red flags. First, Carl is on the outs with one of his investors over missed deadlines. Netflix is gonna have to pay $14 million just to get that investor off the project. But in Hollywood, investors get bought out all the time. The second flag is that while Carl has an idea of the season's plot, the script Cindy read is just a draft. It's not actually done. But Netflix buys shows off pitches without a script all the time. The last flag is Carl's reputation.

• 26:34Sarah Hagi?

  One of the executives who clashed with Carl on 47 Ronin now works at Netflix in the movie division. But Cindy must not have consulted with him before buying White Horse. If she had, he might have given her a big heads up.

• 26:51Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, but you know what? This was probably some sort of an open secret. And maybe she thought, like, I can wrangle him, I can get him under control.

• 26:59Sarah Hagi?

  Classic, I can fix him, right?

• 27:02Scaachi Koul?

  Hmm.

• 27:03Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Cindy finalizes a deal in November 2018 for $61 million. The money will be doled out as Carl hits various production milestones on the remaining seven episodes. Cindy is excited to see what Carl makes, and hopes it'll be another massive hit to add to her resume. But while she might see this as a creative risk, it's really a bet on Carl. And that bet is about to become the gamble of a lifetime.

• 27:36Sarah Hagi?

  It's February 2019 in Los Angeles, just three months after Netflix shells out tens of millions for White Horse. Gabriella is sleeping peacefully in her LA home when Carl suddenly startles her awake. He's angry with her, and she has no idea why. She glances at the clock. It's 5:00 AM. He must have stayed up all night writing again. Carl is manic, ranting and not making sense. Gabriella's been trying to be supportive of her husband, but lately, he's been scaring her. In recent weeks, he screamed at her in public and thrown things at her in private. He even punched holes in the wall of their home in fits of rage.

• 28:21Sarah Hagi?

  To treat these episodes, Carl was referred to a psychiatrist who prescribed medication, including Vyvanse for his ADHD. It was supposed to help with the mood swings, but they seemed to be getting worse.

• 28:35Scaachi Koul?

  Wow, this is not somebody that I would trust to be in a managerial position anywhere, never mind on a movie set for something that's very high-pressure and very high-budget.

• 28:47Sarah Hagi?

  Yes, and has a lot of people working on it who rely on sanity. Yeah. Despite Carl's deteriorating mental state, production on the remaining episodes of White Horse officially begins that summer in Brazil. At this point, the show has become Gabriella's project as much as Carl's. She believes in it and wants it to be great. She also feels a deep responsibility to the cast and crew. So even though she doesn't feel safe being alone with Carl, she flies to the set in Brazil and makes sure to request separate hotel rooms. One day, filming gets behind schedule, likely because of Carl.

• 29:28Sarah Hagi?

  His vision for White Horse keeps expanding, and it's clashing with the reality of production. He seems to have no concept of what anything actually costs or requires. It falls to Gabriella to tell Carl they have to wrap for the day. Now that they're filming for Netflix, they're supposed to abide by union rules, which includes ending at reasonable times. But Carl refuses to stop. He grabs her by both arms, picks her up, and physically moves her out of the way, telling her to, quote, "get out of my fucking set."

• 30:05Sarah Hagi?

  Gross. Gross and scary. Yeah, and Gabriella is not the only one feeling the brunt of Carl's aggression. He screams and swears at the crew, too. It gets so bad that a local film union representative warns Netflix that Carl is mistreating the team. Reportedly, Netflix addresses the issues directly with Carl. But it doesn't seem to fix anything. Gabriella is getting more and more worried, but she doesn't voice her concerns to the studio. She's still trying to protect her husband and salvage the project. But soon, she won't be able to hide his behavior. And Netflix executives will no longer be able to sit back and chill.

• 30:54Sarah Hagi?

  It's September at Netflix's Los Angeles headquarters, and Peter Friedlander is in his office answering emails. Peter is the VP of Original Series, reporting to Cindy Holland. He's bald, with perfectly manicured stubble, and kind eyes behind his hipster glasses. Then, a new email hits his inbox. It's from Carl. "Sachi, can you read what Carl wrote?" Yeah, he wrote, quote,

• 31:22Scaachi Koul?

  "Despite our best efforts and meticulous planning of schedule, budget, pre-pro, once we have landed abroad, the budgets have exploded on us. There is no reason to believe that this pattern will change moving forward or that we will be able to hold the line financially." Hey, this is the worst email to write and receive. It is Bad News Bears for everybody.

• 31:47Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and it's written in such weird passive language.

• 31:51Scaachi Koul?

  It's like, "The budgets have exploded," and not, "I put TNT in the budget and exploded it." Exactly.

• 31:57Sarah Hagi?

  And Carl goes on to say that they now have two options. Either he only delivers the first half of episodes, or Netflix increases the budget to get everything they agreed to. Peter reads over the email again, just to make sure he's getting this right. He's genuinely confused about where all the money has gone and why Carl thinks he's in any position to make these kinds of demands. Peter asks to see the footage of Carl's shot so far, plus storyboards for future shoots. But Carl refuses to share them. Since he has final cut, he doesn't think he should have to show his work until he says it's ready. He believes Netflix should just agree to all of his creative decisions, including his budgetary demands.

• 32:41Sarah Hagi?

  If Peter had hair, he'd want to rip it out. That's just not how final cut rights work. Netflix still has to be involved in any decisions that affect the production and budget. Peter tries to stay calm. One of his colleagues suggests places to trim in the script to cut costs, but Carl refuses to listen. He says he's, quote, "Not interested in that kind of relationship that Netflix was proposing."

• 33:09Scaachi Koul?

  The next time someone charges me for anything, like, the next time I get billed like a late fee because I didn't cancel a workout that I slept through, as is my want, I am gonna write back, "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship that you are proposing, one where I give you money."

• 33:28Sarah Hagi?

  It is beyond comprehension that someone could send that email to someone who's funding their work. Peter gets tired of the back and forth over email, so he gets on a plane and flies to Budapest, where the production is now filming. When he arrives, he finally sees some footage. But when he tries to sit down with Carl to go over the budget, Carl refuses to engage. He literally walks out of the meeting. Peter doesn't understand this erratic behavior. He's flown halfway around the globe, and Carl won't even talk to him. It's ridiculous. Ultimately, Netflix agrees to a compromise and transfers $5.3 million to Carl to keep filming.

• 34:12Sarah Hagi?

  But they make it clear this isn't extra money. It's a chunk of the $61 million they already agreed to, just advanced early. Peter hears from Business Affairs that Carl is not happy about that. He wanted more money on top of the original $61 million. Filming finally wraps up in Budapest in late 2019. Peter hopes the chaos is now behind them, and they can finish the project. But Carl's demands are about to get even more out of hand. It's February 2020, and Carl is meeting with Cindy at the Netflix offices.

• 34:54Sarah Hagi?

  She's expecting to see footage from the season he's just shot. Instead, Carl presents her with some Star Wars coffee table books. It's his way of reminding her that White Horse could be just as big for Netflix. She should be envisioning a multi-season franchise and basically give him a blank check to make it happen. He's been incessantly emailing her about a season two. He wants Netflix to fund it without even seeing the first one. Does he think everyone's an idiot? He must. He must think everyone's an idiot. And that everyone should just believe in him no matter what. A few weeks later, Cindy tells Carl that Netflix will take five weeks to decide whether they want a second season.

• 35:39Sarah Hagi?

  In the meantime, they'll wire him $11 million to continue production. He can use some of it on pre-production for an expanded script. But if Netflix passes on another season, Carl needs to put his head down and finish the first. He agrees. In March 2020, Netflix sends Carl an email laying out this new agreement. But later, Carl will claim he thought the entire $11 million was his to use however he wanted. So Carl transfers almost all of it into his personal accounts and starts investing in the stock market.

• 36:18Scaachi Koul?

  In what world? You know what, actually, that's not fair. It's not fair for me to say, "In what world would that ever be the way that a movie production works?" Except, he's never made anything before. So to his credit, how would he know? How would he know that you can't use the network's funds to gamble on the stock market?

• 36:37Sarah Hagi?

  He's creating his own world, both on-screen and off, I guess. Also, this is right around the same time COVID-19 shuts down the US, and the pandemic hits Carl hard. His already fragile mental state continues to deteriorate, fueled by widespread conspiracy theories. Carl becomes convinced that a company called Gilead Sciences is going to make the COVID cure and obsessively researches them for weeks. He puts huge, seven-figure option bets on Gilead's stock going up, while also betting that the S&P 500 will keep falling. According to court documents, Carl believes he's hedging the market, saying, quote,

• 37:19Sarah Hagi?

  "In the instance that we had a total calamity where millions of people died, we would be able to continue working on this show."

• 37:29Scaachi Koul?

  Okay, so he's forecasting, "What if this plague really does wipe out enough of society where millions of people die?" Which is what happened, to be clear. That is exactly what happened. But his number one concern is, "Can we finish making this stupid show that I don't know how to make?"

• 37:47Sarah Hagi?

  Uh, yeah, that's exactly it. And unfortunately for Carl, he loses $5.9 million on those bets. He seems to think he can make it all back by making more investments. It doesn't work. He's making such terrible decisions that his Wells Fargo broker, who's making a commission off him, actually tries to stop Carl from continuing. But Carl just tells him, quote, "I can afford to lose the money."

• 38:16Scaachi Koul?

  No greater bottom than a broker telling you to get a grip.

• 38:19Sarah Hagi?

  I can't fathom. At this point, the five weeks are up, and Netflix still hasn't made a decision about a second season. He does keep working on storyboards and visuals for the future season, things that can be done remotely. He emails Cindy, saying that the work on White Horse is, quote, "Awesome, other level, and game-changing good." Carl may not be letting on to his employers that he's starting to unravel. But one person knows him better than anyone, and she's growing more and more concerned. It's now June 2020 in Los Angeles, three months into the pandemic. Gabriela's been quarantining with her family in Uruguay,

• 39:04Sarah Hagi?

  but she's back stateside because Carl's brother reached out, saying Carl needed help. He said the changes in Carl were unlike anything he'd seen in him before. Gabriela's tried her best to help Carl. About six months earlier, she staged the intervention from the beginning of this episode, but it didn't work. Then, in February, she and Carl went to couples therapy, which also didn't work. But Gabriela still loves Carl and worries about him. She wants to help him get better. Today, when Gabriela checks on Carl, he insists on taking her to a scenic lookout in the Hollywood Hills. Once they get there, he points to the planes streaking through the sky above.

• 39:49Sarah Hagi?

  He tells Gabriela, "They aren't actually planes. They're organic, intelligent forces that have come to say hi to him."

• 39:58Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, okay, so he has really started to lose the plot here. Now it's sad.

• 40:03Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, it sounds an awful lot like the plot of White Horse. And that's when Gabriela realizes she's completely lost Carl. It's one thing to create a sci-fi TV show. It's another thing to believe you're living it. For the rest of the month, Gabriela witnesses the extent of Carl's delusions. He sends her texts claiming he can predict lightning strikes and volcanic eruptions. One day, she catches him staring directly into the sun. Another time, when she tries to talk to him, he shushes her and says, quote, "Mama's talking," which Gabriela believes is his new nickname for God.

• 40:47Scaachi Koul?

  Uh, very tragic. Unfortunately, the best comeback I've ever heard, and I will be using it immediately.

• 40:55Sarah Hagi?

  It all finally becomes too much for Gabriela. That summer, she separates from Carl. And as their marriage ends, so does her time working on White Horse. Shortly after they split, Gabriela tells Netflix executives Cindy and Peter about Carl's true mental state. Turns out, this explains a lot. Carl has been sending Cindy strange texts and emails. Some were incomprehensible doodles and annotations. Others were wild, rambling claims about Trump and China. Two days after she speaks with Cindy and Peter, Gabriela officially files for divorce.

• 41:38Sarah Hagi?

  A few months later, Netflix goes through a reorg. Cindy leaves the company and Peter is left scrambling. He and another executive try to get updates from Carl, but when he's uncooperative, they reach out to Gabriella, who's technically still a producer on the project. They ask if she can get access to the show's footage. Gabriella wishes she could help, but she's worried that if she goes behind Carl's back, he'll fly off the handle. Gabriella's reaction concerns Netflix execs, who are now worried that Carl might be unstable, even violent. They allegedly reach out to the LAPD's Threat Management Unit for help.

• 42:20Sarah Hagi?

  But after reviewing Carl's texts and emails, the department's psychologist determines that Carl isn't a danger to himself or others. By November of 2020, Netflix officially decides they don't want a second season of White Horse. Gabriella understands why, but she's still heartbroken. The show was her baby, too, and she sacrificed so much for it. She left her family, gave up her modeling career, moved to a foreign country, all because she believed in Carl and his vision. Now she has nothing in her own name. It's all tied to him. She'll have to fight for her peace.

• 43:02Sarah Hagi?

  But if she knows anything about Carl, it's that he's not gonna let her go easily.

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• 45:22Sarah Hagi?

  It's March 2021, a full year since Netflix sent Carl $11 million. While he waited for their decision on White Horse, he spent that money as if it were his own, because, as he later claims, he genuinely believed it was. But today, he finally gets an email from Netflix's Business Affairs team, and it's a death sentence. They say that not only do they not want a second season, now they don't even want the first. Carl is pissed. He immediately writes back, addressing the email, quote, "Dear coward," and insisting they can't do this. When he doesn't get the response he wants, Carl goes back to spending money.

• 46:06Sarah Hagi?

  While he claims he always thought the money was his, it sure seems like he's blowing through it out of revenge. Around this time, Carl also unilaterally closes all of his and Gabriella's joint bank accounts and cancels all their credit cards. He claims it's because of an identity theft issue. Whatever the reason, Gabriella is now completely cut off. Over the summer, Carl's emails to Gabriella and her attorneys get more aggressive and erratic. He tells her lawyers he wants to book long calls with them, just so they'll have to charge Gabriella for their time. He asks if Gabriella is bankrupt yet or has fled the country.

• 46:47Sarah Hagi?

  He also suggests she's been unfaithful and asks her to identify which STDs he should be tested for. Meanwhile, Carl's spending money like he's purposefully trying to drain his accounts. Sachi, will you read this text he sent to his personal assistant?

• 47:04Scaachi Koul?

  He wrote, "Get all that Hermes stuff now. This is your job. We have to do this, or else the money goes bye-bye. Get it?" You know, what's interesting about this, other than the fact that Carl is being demonstrably evil, is that he's been saying this whole time that he thought it was his money, he thought it was his money. If that's true, why would he be spending it so furiously right now? And being very explicit in print, in text, to his assistant, "If you don't do this, money goes bye-bye." He's yelling the quiet part loud.

• 47:36Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it doesn't really make sense at all, based on anything he's claiming. And then Carl buys a Ferrari as a birthday present to himself. He also spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on jewelry and art. He pays off $1.8 million in credit card bills, including nearly 500 Postmates and Uber Eats orders over a six-month period. He also buys a fleet of five Rolls Royces. But his wildest spending is in the bedroom. His next impulse buy is luxury mattresses. Specifically, the Heston's Grand Vividus mattress in the black shadow colorway.

• 48:18Sarah Hagi?

  It costs almost $440,000, making it the most expensive mattress in the world. It comes with a base and leather headboard, plus a bed doctor who visits your house to massage the mattress. And of course, Carl doesn't stop there. He ends up buying a second one in a different color. Can you read what Carl said in a later deposition, when he was asked why he needed these mattresses?

• 48:47Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, he said, quote, "Because it retains value. And a mattress that you spend $30,000 on is worth zilch, but a mattress that you spend $450,000 on, guess what? It's worth 100 grand more now. So hey, what are you gonna do? As ever, I am bad at math, but I do not think this math is mathing in any capacity. Also, the second you sleep on it, I think it's kind of like a car, where it just will

• 49:13Sarah Hagi?

  decrease in value, right? Immediately. I think it's like a toothbrush. Honestly, I do want to try this mattress badly, though. I do want to know what it's like." There's obviously a lot going on with Carl. He's experiencing extreme mental instability, but he's also just being a dick. In May 2021, Carl receives discovery requests from Gabriella's legal team, but refuses to cooperate. And, mind-bogglingly, he sues Netflix for further payments he believes he still owed. Carl thinks he's the victim here, but he's the one screwing himself. He's alienating and hurting the one person who's always advocated for him, and he's

• 49:56Sarah Hagi?

  antagonizing the company that gave him a chance to resuscitate his career. He's become his own worst enemy, and the consequences of his actions are finally about to catch up.

• 50:10Sarah Hagi?

  It's May 2023, a little more than two years since Netflix pulled the plug on White Horse, and Carl is fighting two legal battles. The first is with Netflix, the second is his divorce from Gabriella. The judge in his divorce case orders him to pay $275,000 to cover Gabriella's legal fees and to pay her forensic accountant so they can uncover where all the money went. Carl tells the court he doesn't have that kind of cash, saying, quote, "I'm trying to survive here."

• 50:45Scaachi Koul?

  He's got a real mother bluth, "it's a banana, how much could it cost?" kind of energy with this.

• 50:51Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, that's exactly the energy, because in reality, Carl has about $500,000 left in his checking account. But as the proceedings continue, he claims he's in severe financial distress. He claims all the assets he has left are some kitchen appliances and about $5,000. And it turns out, he put a bunch of money back into the crypto market, which crashed. So the $27 million he once had is now only worth $68,000. But Gabriella and her team point out Carl is paying more than $16,000 a month to live in an ultra-luxury apartment building in West Hollywood.

• 51:34Sarah Hagi?

  He's also spending $3,500 every month eating out at restaurants.

• 51:39Scaachi Koul?

  That's kind of amazing. He has an appetite, considering all the financial duress that he's under.

• 51:45Sarah Hagi?

  I know. I'm like, how are you going out to restaurants? Like, how are you not so stressed out? Mm-hmm. While Carl's divorce proceedings continue through the courts, he's also facing arbitration with Netflix. And unfortunately for Carl, that case isn't settled in his favor. An arbitrator finds that Carl owes Netflix the $11 million. Following that decision, Carl finally gets professional help for his mental health struggles and medication problems. Friends and family say he eventually returns back to his normal self. Unfortunately, that doesn't erase everything Carl's done. And now, the federal government wants a piece of him, too.

• 52:28Sarah Hagi?

  In March 2025, the Justice Department files an indictment against Carl, claiming his dealings with Netflix constituted fraud. Despite the mountains of evidence against him, Carl's so confident he'll be exonerated that he refused to even consider a plea deal.

• 52:46Scaachi Koul?

  It's really hard to know what his motivations are with this, with, you know, refusing to even consider the plea deal. You can only guess that this is like him in his right state. This is him mentally well, and so he's making that decision of some mind. But then is he doing this because like, he can't admit that he did something wrong? Because then he definitely will never work in this town again. But, you know, maybe if he just like, was a scam artist, he'll get another job. That's what's known to happen. Yeah, I think he's just got too much pride.

• 53:17Sarah Hagi?

  The two-week trial kicks off in December 2025. Several Netflix executives testify, including Cindy and Peter. The prosecution argues that Carl knowingly and purposefully committed fraud. Carl's defense lawyer paints him as an artist who is just in over his head. They also blame executive group think and the pandemic for exacerbating the issue. Eventually, it's Carl's turn to address the jury. He's in a suit and tie, his long hair slicked back with lots of product. Unfortunately for Carl, this time, he's not so good in the room. The jury doesn't buy what he's selling. They find him guilty.

• 54:00Sarah Hagi?

  At his sentencing, his good friend Keanu Reeves sends a letter to the court. Will you read it for us?

• 54:07Scaachi Koul?

  He wrote, quote, "In my opinion, Carl can self-sabotage by amplifying the scale, scope, and landscape of what had been negotiated. I have seen Carl bring exceptional joy and warmth to the people around him. I have seen him bring creative inspiration to others through his creativity and vision. I have seen and been a part of wonderful artistic environments where exceptional work was done with him. I hope you are able to find leniency for this man." I mean, this is disappointing, Keanu. You know, I would say it's mostly a victimless crime because he just ripped off some big company, but what about his ex-wife? Yeah, and all the people who worked on it.

• 54:46Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. Honestly, Keanu's sweet for that, but I'm questioning his judgment big time. Bad judgment. Nice letter. Between his conviction and sentencing, a judge grants Gabriella her divorce and orders Carl to pay all of the spousal support and legal fees he had refused to pay, a total of about $1 million. As of today, Gabriella seems to have moved past any hope of reconciliation. She's a creative director for her own company, and she's with a new partner. In June 2026, Carl is sentenced to two and a half years in prison. As of this recording, he's due to report to prison this month.

• 55:28Sarah Hagi?

  Apparently, this time, not even his good friend Keanu Reeves can save him from his fate. Sachi, isn't it so awesome how things work? Yeah, I love infrastructure. It makes me feel safe. I think for a lot of creative work, like, obviously, you have to be skilled, there's luck, but there was something about Carl's ascent where like, everything was at the exact right time in the culture and filmmaking and funding. He did this at a time when it was easier to get recognized for your short film. And then it's like, oh, he did this when streamers were throwing money at everyone.

• 56:09Sarah Hagi?

  It just baffles me that he fumbled so badly when like, everything lined up entirely for his success.

• 56:15Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, as usual, we have an artistic scammer who like, probably could have just kept things moving if they didn't go full evil guy. If he'd been a little more nice on his sets, if he had been a little nicer to his ex-wife, if he had been a little more careful about him like, taking studio money and spinning it out into the stock market, he probably would have gotten some stuff made.

• 56:40Sarah Hagi?

  I think it was also his extreme entitlement. It really bothers me when people think having an opportunity guarantees their success and that they deserve to be somewhere and keep doing the work they want to do, when it's like, if you mess up and they don't want you to make something again, there's no law saying that you have to do filmmaking. The entitlement makes my head want to explode. This idea that everything has to work out because it's your dream. Yeah, just because you like something doesn't mean that you get to have it. There's also this pervasive idea that in order to create something worth watching or worth understanding, or that has a deeper meaning, there has to be like, a lot of suffering attached. Yeah.

• 57:24Sarah Hagi?

  And that people will have to suffer and work their asses off, and it'll all be worth it because in the end, you've made something. And I just, I reject that so much. I hate that people think you have to be tortured in order to make something work. And they even torture people in order to make something work. So many people got fucked over because of him.

• 57:44Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah. I think you can be a tortured artist, but you don't get to torture other people. So if you want to be a tortured artist, you can punish yourself. That's your business. Seems like a lousy time, but unfortunately, Carl did nothing but like, spew that energy outwards and make it everybody else's problem.

• 58:05Sarah Hagi?

  Well, oftentimes, that is what happens when people want to be tortured. It does not ever end with them. And again, all for what? White Horse? Yeah, I mean, the real crime here is that the show itself sounded bad. The way Hollywood works is really random, and a lot of it is based on like, precedent and taking chances. And I think these people who invested in him really bet on the wrong horse. But if it were to work out and this turned into the next Stranger Things or whatever, their lives would have been made. So there was like, very little incentive to actually stop him and stop giving him chances and giving him money.

• 58:46Sarah Hagi?

  And I think as much as it is Carl's fault this happened, it kind of also isn't. Like, he just was asking and they were saying yes. So in my mind, I'm like, your fault too, Netflix?

• 58:59Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, there were 1,000 points where they probably could have stopped him, but the reality is, is that like, if it makes a little money, it's all worth it. Like, down to him being cruel to the people that he works with and giving a woman hypothermia. As long as it gets done and they all turn a profit, it's worth it. So I think at that point, they're just playing with sunk cost fallacy, which is something that we talk about a lot on our show in a lot of ways, that all these execs were just following sunk cost fallacy. Yeah.

• 59:29Sarah Hagi?

  I think the real scam is believing in yourself.

• 59:34Scaachi Koul?

  I keep saying that. Don't believe in yourself and don't expect me to do it either.

• 59:39Sarah Hagi?

  I think a huge thing of believing in yourself is knowing when to stop. To stop believing. Yeah. You know, it's like, that's what being self-aware is in art.

• 59:49Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, that's really beautiful advice. I love that. Quit. Quit it. Quit. All that for a guy named Carl. Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 1:00:09Sarah Hagi?

  For Audible Originals, this is Carl Rinsch, Netflix and Swill for Scamfluencers. I'm Sarah Haggie.

• 1:00:16Scaachi Koul?

  And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected]. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were Jacob Shamsian and Laura Italiano's reporting for Business Insider, The New York Times's The Strange $55 Million Saga of a Netflix Series You'll Never See by John Carreyu, and extensive court documents from Carl Rinsch's trial in the Southern District of New York.

• 1:00:41Sarah Hagi?

  Alex Burns wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggie. Olivia Bryle is our story editor. Our senior producers are Sarah Enni and Ginny Bloom. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Fact checking by Gabrielle Drolle. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Fries on Sync. The executive producer for Audible is Jenny Lauer Beckman. The head of creative development at Audible is Kate Maven. The head of Audible Originals North America is Marshall Louis. The chief content officer is Rachel Giatza. Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC.

• 1:01:23Sarah Hagi?

  Sound recording copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC.

• 1:01:33Speaker 08

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari early and ad-free on Audible.