Pod Insights Rosebud with Gyles Brandreth More Rosebud - Jodie Harsh About this episode Our guest today is the DJ, music producer and drag artiste Jay Clarke AKA Jodie Harsh. In this conversation, Jay/Jodie talks to Gyles about their childhood in Canterbury, growing up as a young gay man in a close-knit family with a father who struggled to accept his son's sexuality. Gyles hears about escaping from the family home down the bathroom drainpipe and going up to London, secretly, to go underage clubbing at the Astoria. And thus Jay/Jodie burst onto London's gay scene - and the rest is history. Jodie Harsh was born, went on to become one of London's best known drag artistes, friends with stars such as Amy Winehouse and Kylie, and DJ for celebrity parties and Madonna.
Perhaps not what you'd usually expect from Rosebud - this is a fascinating story of excess, club culture and the search for identity. It does contain mention of drink and drugs and some sexual references.
Jodie's book, You Had To Be There is out now and available here https://www.waterstones.com/book/you-had-to-be-there/jodie-harsh/9780571392421.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript 12,347 words · 4 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 Harriet, what's your middle name?
0:02 Speaker 01 Anne.
0:03 Speaker 00 So you're Harriet Anne Jane?
0:05 Speaker 01 Yes.
0:05 Speaker 00 Can you ask me what my middle name is?
0:07 Speaker 01 What's your middle name Giles?
0:09 Speaker 00 Dorbny. Can you believe it? I'm Giles Dorbny Brandreth. So this proves that sometimes more is too much. You don't need to be Anne in the middle.
0:20 Speaker 01 No.
0:20 Speaker 00 I certainly don't need to be Dorbny in the middle. Sometimes more is excessive. But not on a Tuesday when it comes to Rosebud. The more, the merrier, as far as we're concerned. Welcome to More Rosebud. Now you're set.
0:34 Speaker 01 Cue the music.
0:54 Speaker 00 This is Rosebud. In fact, this is more than Rosebud. It's more Rosebud. We appear twice a week. Every Friday we are here with an interview. It's just me talking to somebody of interest. Well, today it's me talking to somebody of great interest. But I'm not doing it alone. Because always on a Tuesday, which is the day when this particular More Rosebud drops, I'm joined by my friend and producer, Harriet Jane.
1:20 Speaker 01 I thought you were saying that I was the person of great interest. Because you're talking to me.
1:26 Speaker 00 You are.
1:26 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:27 Speaker 00 Of huge interest.
1:29 Speaker 01 But I'm not actually.
1:30 Speaker 00 I tell you what I want to talk to you about. And it's dressing up in the clothes of the opposite sex. I'm thinking about that because they're doing another reprint of my autobiography. Well, it's a childhood memoir really called Odd Boy Out. Published by Penguin while we're plugging things. And they sent me proofs to have a look at. Including the illustrations. Lots of illustrations. And I see that one of the spreads has pictures of me in, well, fishnet tights. Dressed as Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz. Dressed as Lady Bracknell. Dressed as a pantomime dame.
2:15 Speaker 00 Another page seems to have me dressed as Rosalind in As You Like It. And the picture editor was going through these pictures and he said, oh, is there a theme developing here? I said, no, these just happen to be pictures in the book. They said, oh, you seem to do quite a lot of that. And it suddenly occurred to me, did you ever want to dress up as a boy? Harriet.
2:36 Speaker 01 Um, I don't think I have actually, no.
2:39 Speaker 00 It was quite a big thing in Victorian times.
2:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:44 Speaker 00 For girls to dress as boys. The origin of the principal boy in pantomime goes back to, well, early Victorian times. There was a famous actress called Madame Vestris, who would often appear en travestis, as it was described to make it seem respectable, using the French. And she appeared in sort of tight leggings, looking like a, well, like a principal boy from a pantomime, because it was an opportunity for people to go to the theatre and see women's legs, which in early Victorian days you couldn't really do. But it became very fashionable.
3:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:15 Speaker 00 And there were all sorts of women who dressed as principal boys. But then there became a fashion for women entertainers to dress as men. White tie, top hat, tails, elegant men.
3:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
3:29 Speaker 00 Uh, famously, there was somebody called Vesta Tilly. And there was, oh, I'm trying to remember the lady I saw, Hetty King.
3:38 Speaker 01 Hmm.
3:38 Speaker 00 She was quite old by the time I saw her, appearing at a music hall in London called the Players Theatre, underneath the arches at Cheltenham Cross Station. And she was, I suppose, in her eighties by the time I saw her. She looked very stylish. And she came on as a sailor.
3:54 Speaker 01 Oh.
3:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, in a sailor's outfit. And it was rather fun.
3:59 Speaker 01 Hmm.
3:59 Speaker 00 So, there's been a vogue for girls dressing as boys, as there has been over the years for men dressing as women.
4:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it's, I suppose nowadays, you know, in Victorian times, women wore long skirts and crinolines and things, so dressing as a boy was more difficult. Whereas now, you can just wear trousers whenever you like.
4:22 Speaker 00 Indeed, what are you wearing today? You are wearing a sort of...
4:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, I'm not dressed as a man, but I'm wearing trousers. So... I suppose the urgency for women of, or the frisson of wearing men's clothes, inverted commas, has slightly gone. I mean, I can imagine what I could wear to look more blokeish. So when you see a woman in a tie, for example, I saw a woman the other day in a tie and a waistcoat and a shirt, and I thought, that looks cool. It was a kind of, yeah, men's outfit. She looked great. But I think it's less clear now when a woman dresses a man, because women wear clothes that the Victorians would have considered to be men's clothes.
5:03 Speaker 00 Whereas men dress as a woman is still a novelty. When we talked to Grayson Perry, obviously he told us that dressing as a girl was for him a fetish. There was a kind of sexual frisson. And I don't think when the kind of people I'm talking about dressed as boys, the girls who dressed as boys, I don't think it was a fetish. I think it was more style.
5:26 Speaker 01 But wasn't it associated with lesbianism?
5:30 Speaker 00 Oh, that's a different thing.
5:33 Speaker 01 I mean, I don't know about these performers you're talking about. That sounds like a performing thing.
5:37 Speaker 00 That was a performing thing.
5:38 Speaker 01 Which it is for many drag artists now.
5:40 Speaker 00 And they were doing it as a performance, and it was rather stylish. They came on in a sailor suit, in a white tie, top app and tails, and they did a number, you know, I'm Burlington Bertie, I rise at ten thirty, they did a song.
5:50 Speaker 01 And that's their act. But there definitely was a, you know, there definitely were women in the Bloomsbury set, for example, who dressed boyishly or blokeishly, and they were gay, and that was partly...
6:03 Speaker 00 Yes, you're right. It may have been partly, there may have been a frisson. May also been sending out a signal.
6:09 Speaker 01 Or just a rejection of the norms of femininity. I think it was more about that.
6:15 Speaker 00 Now, the reason we're chatting about this is because I have got a book in my hands, which I'm reading and finding completely fascinating, called You Had To Be There by Jodie Harsh.
6:26 Speaker 00 Now Jodie Harsh is a drag performer, a DJ, described to me by one of my colleagues at this morning as the queen of Soho. You've got Jodie Harsh. We have got Jodie Harsh.
6:39 Speaker 01 Yes, in full drag.
6:41 Speaker 00 In full drag. So this is, this is our first Rosebud with someone in full drag.
6:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:46 Speaker 00 But curiously, we're looking at one person, but there will be two people there. And the other person is Jay Clark, because Jodie Harsh was born Jay Clark. And how the two, how one becomes the other and their journey is what our conversation's going to be about.
7:04 Speaker 01 Hmm.
7:05 Speaker 00 We have a boy, born in Canterbury, brought up, realises he's different, gradually realises he's gay or queer, and then eventually doesn't just come out, he's outed, creates tensions within his family, particularly with his father, and then he gets on to the scene in London. It's an amazing story. It's a rollercoaster, and I think people will very much enjoy it.
7:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, it involves escaping from the house by the bathroom window, which I know is a bit you enjoy, Giles, because I think you've done that in your time, haven't you? Shinny down a drainpipe or whatever you had to do.
7:41 Speaker 00 That's for another episode.
7:42 Speaker 01 Ah, yeah, no, it's fun, it's fun.
7:45 Speaker 00 This is a fun one.
7:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:47 Speaker 00 And it's very interesting. And it's actually, what I love about Rosebud in a way, is it's a kind of social commentary, it's a time capsule.
7:56 Speaker 01 Hmm.
7:57 Speaker 00 Somebody was saying to me, the account by Dame Sharn Phillips of the wartime in South Wales was so evocative.
8:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:06 Speaker 00 So on Rosebud, you can get literally the war in South Wales from someone like Dame Sharn Phillips, and you can get somebody like Jodie Harsh telling us about the scene in Soho.
8:20 Speaker 01 The club scene in noughties London.
8:22 Speaker 00 Exactly.
8:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:23 Speaker 00 That's what Rosebud is here for.
8:24 Speaker 01 Which obviously Giles was a big, big part of as well. So Giles and Jodie really reminisce together about that.
8:32 Speaker 00 Stay tuned, Ariat. You may find that I know more about all this than you realise.
8:37 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
8:38 Speaker 00 I've been to places, even before you were born, I was doing fun things.
8:43 Speaker 01 Right, Giles, say, say it.
8:46 Speaker 00 Cue the music.
8:59 Speaker 00 Well, I'm with Jodie Harsh and Jodie, how have you been? How are you?
9:02 Speaker 02 I've been great. Been a busy few weeks. I'm sort of coming down off a wild couple of weeks, really.
9:08 Speaker 00 DJing?
9:09 Speaker 02 DJed for Madonna.
9:10 Speaker 00 For Madonna?
9:12 Speaker 02 For Madonna. The one and only.
9:14 Speaker 00 The one and only. Where was this? What was this about?
9:16 Speaker 02 She got me in to open for her in her confessions to album launch. She'd sort of threw this massive warehouse party in East London on the eve of the album coming out, so.
9:29 Speaker 00 So is that the essence of how you earn your living now? You are a DJ.
9:32 Speaker 02 DJ, exactly.
9:33 Speaker 00 DJ to the stars.
9:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:35 Speaker 00 And you've worked with the stars because you've also been a songwriter, song producer?
9:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, I've worked with Charli XCX and people like that.
9:43 Speaker 00 And Kylie mentioned your name to me.
9:44 Speaker 02 Kylie, yep. Absolutely love her. Another person I grew up with, posters of her on my wall and I opened for her concert tour last summer.
9:53 Speaker 00 Yes.
9:53 Speaker 02 So I love Kylie. I mean, she's impossible not to love.
9:57 Speaker 00 Well, can I tell you, Kylie loves you.
9:59 Speaker 02 Oh, that's very sweet.
10:00 Speaker 00 It's a two-way street.
10:01 Speaker 02 I love her.
10:02 Speaker 00 So that's what you're doing now, but I want to take you right back to the beginning because you are Jodie Harsh here with me today, but you were born Jay Clark on the 21st of February 1985.
10:18 Speaker 02 That's absolutely correct.
10:20 Speaker 00 And at home, if we met at home, I'd be calling you Jay.
10:23 Speaker 02 Jay, yeah. Jay day-to-day and then obviously the presentation of the performance.
10:28 Speaker 00 Well, I'm glad you've come in performance mode.
10:31 Speaker 02 Of course, always.
10:32 Speaker 00 And ready for action.
10:33 Speaker 02 Gotta turn it on.
10:34 Speaker 00 And can I say, not just turning it on, but we hope turning us on.
10:37 Speaker 02 Yes.
10:38 Speaker 00 But we'll come to that later.
10:39 Speaker 02 Okay.
10:40 Speaker 00 Jay Clark, 21st of February 1985. What, Jodie, Jay, what is your very first memory?
10:48 Speaker 02 My first memory is London. The first time I ever remember being alive, sat on a gorilla at London Zoo. Not an alive gorilla, but there's a statue of a gorilla in London Zoo. And I remember it being a special day because we travelled, I was with my grandparents. We travelled on a coach tour up into London. We went to London Zoo and I remember it being an extraordinary day because I was away from Canterbury, where I was born and grew up. And I remember being far away from home and that being an exciting experience.
11:23 Speaker 00 Well, London is central to your life. When I told people, friends of mine at the television programme this morning, they said, oh my god, Jodie Harsh, queen of Soho. You are London for many people. But take us back to Canterbury, that's where you were born?
11:39 Speaker 02 It's where I was born, yeah.
11:40 Speaker 00 And who were your parents? Your mother gave birth to you, who is or was your mother?
11:44 Speaker 02 My mother is, she's still around and she's thriving and she's recently divorced and she's absolutely loving life. She's a very, she's a very close friend, I would say to me as well.
11:53 Speaker 00 What's her name?
11:54 Speaker 02 Linda.
11:55 Speaker 00 Linda Clark? Linda Clark?
11:57 Speaker 02 Yes, yes.
11:58 Speaker 00 And what sort of person was she when she was young and met your father?
12:03 Speaker 02 My mum's a lot more quiet than I am. My dad was a little more outgoing. I think I get my performance side from my father. My mum, my mum's always been a little more timid, probably the wrong word, but reserved. She's, I had very, very loving parents growing up. My dad not so much when I hit my mid teens. But my, but my family, we were a very close knit family and lots of love, lots of love.
12:29 Speaker 00 And who was your father?
12:30 Speaker 02 My father was Alan. He passed away a few years ago. He really, he really helped evolve my, and encourage my creative flair.
12:40 Speaker 00 What did he do for a living?
12:41 Speaker 02 He was a colour artist, so he'd get sent prints from places in London and watercolour them in, but like really like amazing war prints and things.
12:50 Speaker 00 And he did that at home, did he?
12:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, he did. We converted the loft into his studio space and there was always lots of music playing in there and I'd go up and. Hang out in the loft and we listen to David Bowie and Prince and Madonna.
13:02 Speaker 00 So you saw a lot of your parents when you were a child.
13:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, all the, all the time.
13:06 Speaker 00 Did they get on well then, your parents?
13:08 Speaker 02 They did up until they divorced when I was about sixteen. I, I believe I was probably the catalyst of their divorce. Um, I, I kind of threw a cat amongst the pigeons and it was probably a long time coming anyway by that point.
13:21 Speaker 00 The divorce you mentioned of your mother just now is her second divorce.
13:24 Speaker 02 Yes, yes.
13:25 Speaker 00 Yes. Okay, I say good, it happened.
13:28 Speaker 02 Single and thriving and living her best life.
13:30 Speaker 00 So going back to you as a little boy born in Canterbury, the eldest child, there's a sibling?
13:35 Speaker 02 One, one sister, a couple of years younger, yeah.
13:37 Speaker 00 And what were the games you played as a little boy?
13:42 Speaker 02 I would perform for my family a lot. I would do sort of Michael Jackson renditions and performances with my pants outside my trousers and, and do make up silly characters. I think when I was younger, I think I thought I was famous.
13:58 Speaker 00 And were they performers themselves, moving shape?
14:00 Speaker 02 My dad was in a band. He was in a, um, I'm definitely not a nepo baby. It was just a, it was a, a pub to pub touring band. I think he was probably a frustrated rock star. Um, he got sober when my sister was born. Yeah, really, really encouraged my, my musical knowledge and, and, and my artistic streak.
14:21 Speaker 00 And who was your first friend outside of home?
14:24 Speaker 02 Samuel, um, who like me was interested in the performing arts. And I remember Samuel, we fell out because there was a touring production of Julius Caesar, which came to the Marlow Theatre and we both went to an audition to play a minor role in it. And Samuel got the part and I didn't. And Samuel for a week had to go on stage, on a real stage in front of real people and perform for five minutes every night. And I remember being so resentful and so jealous that it really terminated our friendship. Yeah, it really ate me up.
15:04 Speaker 00 Has that been a characteristic of your life?
15:07 Speaker 02 It's something I worked on quite early on in my sobriety. As I started going through the steps and also started therapy, traditional therapy, I worked on on jealousies and resentments.
15:16 Speaker 00 Gosh, we're jumping ahead. I mean, when did you come to grips with becoming sober? I know it was about, yes, it was about sixteen years ago?
15:23 Speaker 02 Sixteen years ago, exactly. Twenty five years old and I woke up one morning and realised with the with the probably the worst hangover I'd I'd experienced thus far, I realised I can't drink or take drugs anymore.
15:36 Speaker 00 Good. And that's when you began to get to grips with everything, including the jealousy?
15:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:41 Speaker 00 You knew had been there since you were, how old were you when you met your friend?
15:44 Speaker 02 Oh, we were probably five, six, that sort of thing. We we were friends, I think, from about four. And I think Julius Caesar was probably around eight or nine. Yeah, I just remember it completely ate me up because he was getting an opportunity to perform and I was rejected. So rejection was was has been a theme of my life as well.
16:09 Speaker 00 So the contented years, when you were a little boy, are good years?
16:13 Speaker 02 Oh, definitely.
16:14 Speaker 00 Do you have your own room, you and your sister?
16:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
16:16 Speaker 00 And describe the room to me.
16:18 Speaker 02 Covered all to all in posters, pop music, Kylie Minogue, Madonna, you know, boy bands. At one point I collected butterflies and they were in sort of ornate cages, sort of cages.
16:33 Speaker 00 I mean, live butterflies?
16:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, live butterflies, yeah. There was a place that you could order the pupae from. I think a place in East Sussex and they'd sort of ship them in and you'd have them on cotton wool in the in the in the base of this sort of cage and they'd eventually.
16:51 Speaker 00 It's probably isn't encouraged nowadays, I don't know.
16:53 Speaker 02 No, I think it's probably quite cruel.
16:56 Speaker 00 But you love the idea.
16:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I used to open the gates and of this cage and let them sort of fly around the room and then kind of cup them and put them back into their cages and they'd live for, you know, two weeks or however however long the life of a butterfly is. Moths, lots of moths, moon moths, atlas moths.
17:14 Speaker 00 We've had some interesting memories of childhood. This is the first one that's included butterflies and moths.
17:20 Speaker 02 So rogue.
17:20 Speaker 00 Flying around the bedroom.
17:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:23 Speaker 00 And did you in them, did you see yourself in them? What did you love about the butterflies?
17:27 Speaker 02 There's a nice vision, isn't it? Sort of releasing them and having them fly around.
17:31 Speaker 00 And could you get them back though into the cage?
17:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'd cup them in my hands and sort of gently place them back in and place them on their flower.
17:38 Speaker 00 And did you name them?
17:39 Speaker 02 No, I don't think so. I don't think they lasted long enough to to name. I also had gerbils and Russian dwarf hamsters. And they bred like crazy. And I remember waking up one morning and there were about a hundred hamsters in this sort of cage system that I had and I, you know, I was an early entrepreneur and I had this wild dream of selling them to pet shops and no pet shops were taking them. So I think I just donated them to one pet shop.
18:05 Speaker 00 And your first school?
18:06 Speaker 02 My first school was in a village outside Canterbury, a very lovely place where creativity was also encouraged.
18:13 Speaker 00 Do you have a favourite teacher from that first school?
18:15 Speaker 02 Mrs Marsden, who encouraged also my performing. She cast me as the scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz, you know, which is the lead boy role. And I was determined to get that role. And I was in the same year as Samuel Kelleher and I think he was like the cowardly lion, which as you know, is too too down on the on the on the credits. And so that was that was a small win. I loved it. I loved performing and shortly after I moved to secondary school, Mrs Marsden died. She swerved, I think to avoid a pheasant or something in the street and and died in a car crash.
18:52 Speaker 00 And how did that affect you?
18:53 Speaker 02 I was very upset by that. Yeah. She was like a second mother.
18:57 Speaker 00 So she was the significant other grown up in your life?
19:00 Speaker 02 Definitely.
19:01 Speaker 00 But you felt really comfortable with both your parents?
19:03 Speaker 02 Yes.
19:03 Speaker 00 And did you sense they were comfortable with each other in those days?
19:07 Speaker 02 Uh, yes, I do, yeah.
19:08 Speaker 00 There was no, yeah. Uh, then you go to secondary school.
19:11 Speaker 02 Yes.
19:11 Speaker 00 And this is aged eleven?
19:14 Speaker 02 Age eleven, secondary school, hated it.
19:16 Speaker 00 Straight away?
19:17 Speaker 02 Yes, um, immediately felt very different to everyone else in my class. I guess it's everyone sort of coming from other places and having to forge new friendships.
19:26 Speaker 00 New people.
19:27 Speaker 02 New people, yeah.
19:28 Speaker 00 And what was the school?
19:29 Speaker 02 Um, it was called Barton Court and it was in Canterbury.
19:32 Speaker 00 And it was a regular state school?
19:34 Speaker 02 Regular grammar school, yeah. I I came from a place where being different was probably encouraged in my primary school to sort of kids having opinions on other kids and things in in in the secondary school.
19:45 Speaker 00 So how obviously different were you?
19:48 Speaker 02 Immensely.
19:49 Speaker 00 So describe yourself aged eleven, twelve, compared with the other boys in the school. Was it a coed school, were there boys and girls?
19:55 Speaker 02 Coed, yeah, I was definitely more more feminine. I hated sports. I got on very well with the girls, the naughty girls, the pretty slash naughty girls, you know, the ones that started smoking at thirteen and we'd all sort of hang out and, you know, they were covered in gold rings and just kind of probably sleeping with boys and things like that and I just thought, oh, so cool. And so I gravitated towards the naughty girls. But I and I wasn't particularly bullied, but I was certainly noticed and called out and perhaps teased for being different.
20:28 Speaker 00 Did you look girly? Did you want to look girly?
20:30 Speaker 02 Not especially, not especially, but I was quite camp in my mannerisms for sure. Like, it it was, it was, it was completely apparent that I was different. The queer was shining out of me from a young age.
20:42 Speaker 00 Yes, but were you conscious that the queer was shining out of you or was you just thought, I am as I am?
20:47 Speaker 02 Um, a combination of, I was conscious and I was never, um, I was never scared of it and I've always been quite comfortable in my own skin in that regard.
20:58 Speaker 00 When did you become aware of the concept of gay, or whatever it was then called? Because it's changed the words over the years. Was it gay in those days?
21:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, um, probably my dad using the word puff around the house, not directed towards me at first, but perhaps people in the newspapers, George Michael being dragged out of the closet, Stephen Gately being dragged out of the closet.
21:19 Speaker 00 And do you think that your father was using a word like puff and talking about this other people? Because he was anxious or about you and aware, do you think he was deliberately doing this?
21:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:31 Speaker 00 In the margins because he couldn't quite confront you?
21:34 Speaker 02 A hundred percent, that's exactly, and I've I've got to the bottom of that in therapy as well. I've I've kind of decided that that's probably what was happening. I've also wondered whether my dad may have had some sort of suppressed homosexuality with him as well. He's not here to defend himself, but I have always, that's been at the back of my mind as well.
21:52 Speaker 00 So how did that manifest itself at home? Because if he had anxieties about it, did he eventually share those with you?
22:00 Speaker 02 Um, lots of tutting and eye rolling if I was, if I had, if my if my hand was limp, he'd knock it back into place. And it's these sort of microaggressions that can really get to a child. There was never um shouting and there was certainly never physical violence in my home, but he's just kind of like mi- micro taps.
22:17 Speaker 00 And did this worry you? I mean, did it make you closer to your mum than him? Yes, obviously.
22:21 Speaker 02 Definitely made me closer to my mum.
22:22 Speaker 00 And did she, was she noticing this in you or?
22:25 Speaker 02 I don't think as much as my dad. And I think she thought it would be something that I might grow out of, or my parents didn't have gay friends and my, they grew, they grew up in a different time around different people. And so I can't blame them for any.
22:36 Speaker 00 So you never discussed it with with them at the, certainly at the time, you never discussed it with them?
22:40 Speaker 02 Not until I, until I came out. I think my, I think the sort of worry about like AIDS and things like that was still very prevalent in the media. And I think, I think.
22:48 Speaker 00 Of course, because you were born in the middle of it, nineteen eighty five.
22:50 Speaker 02 Right, in the middle of it, yeah. And so I think, you know, gay AIDS was a concern as well.
22:56 Speaker 00 So we have a worried father.
22:58 Speaker 02 Hmm.
22:59 Speaker 00 A suppressed, maybe worried mother, we don't know. Uh, and you said that the the tension between them about this may have.
23:07 Speaker 02 Slightly later was when they, was when they.
23:10 Speaker 00 When did you decide in your head, I am gay and I'm going to tell people?
23:15 Speaker 02 When I was, I I knew by thirteen or fourteen and I acted on it around fifteen.
23:20 Speaker 00 And then when did you, were, had you begun having crushes on?
23:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, um, definitely. People in boy bands and on TV and characters in Biker Grove and all that kind of stuff. And I, and I acted quite young on this as well, fifteen years old.
23:35 Speaker 00 Yeah. How did you act upon it? What does that mean?
23:37 Speaker 02 I went to London.
23:39 Speaker 00 Oh, you went to that? Oh, so it wasn't another boy at school?
23:41 Speaker 02 No, no, I didn't do anything like that at school.
23:44 Speaker 00 Were there any teachers that took an interest in you at school?
23:46 Speaker 02 Later on, around the, uh, yeah, actually around the same time that I went to London, there was, there was a headmaster. Yeah.
23:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, you write about him in your book.
23:56 Speaker 02 Yeah. He was a headmaster who doubled up as, as an English teacher.
24:00 Speaker 00 Ah, and as I recall, and you can explain this, he is genuinely interested in you and is rather a good teacher initially.
24:07 Speaker 02 Amazing teacher, yeah.
24:09 Speaker 00 So tell us the story.
24:10 Speaker 02 Um, we were, what were we studying? It was a Dickens. It was, uh, it was Hard Times. It was one of the, one of the Dickens books. Um, and there was lots of private tuition and lots of.
24:23 Speaker 00 Which he volunteered to give.
24:24 Speaker 02 Yes, yeah.
24:25 Speaker 00 And you were about fifteen at the time?
24:26 Speaker 02 I'm fifteen, yeah. Lots of getting close, lots of pulling the wool over my, um, family's eyes grooming, essentially.
24:36 Speaker 00 You didn't sense it was that at the time? I mean, or maybe you did.
24:39 Speaker 02 An element of me, I think, probably did. And there were lots of presents being bought and things like that. And as a fifty, I have to think back to being a fifteen year old child and how great I'm getting a bottle of CK one for doing nothing. So, um, I'm not going to say no to that. As a fifteen year old child, I'm not going to say no to that. I didn't see anything wrong with it.
24:59 Speaker 00 And he came round to your house to do this, to do the extra teaching?
25:01 Speaker 02 Yes, and I'd go to his as well. Yeah, yeah.
25:04 Speaker 00 But nothing inappropriate happened? It was just?
25:06 Speaker 02 Never, never. But it was, but, but looking back in retrospect, it was absolutely inappropriate. And I, you know, I'm, I'm so lucky that nothing further happened.
25:16 Speaker 00 Did you blow the whistle eventually?
25:18 Speaker 02 Um.
25:19 Speaker 00 Cause I know he moved from that school and eventually ended up, I think, in Austria.
25:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:23 Speaker 00 And he is now dead.
25:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, he, he died. And, and my, my parents really had no, my, my dad was quite distant by this point. And my, my mum wasn't really, um.
25:32 Speaker 00 Your dad had become distant from the family or from you particularly?
25:36 Speaker 02 From me particularly, yeah, and that situation.
25:38 Speaker 00 Did that make you sad at the time? Or you just carried on?
25:41 Speaker 02 No, I just, I just carried on by this point. I've always sort of had the, um, feeling that it's just his problem. I'm, I'm comfortable in myself and, and this is more his problem than mine. If, if he can't deal with me, then. F him, basically.
25:54 Speaker 00 And you coped with the grooming headmaster?
25:57 Speaker 02 I did, yeah.
25:58 Speaker 00 Let it happen and nothing actually happened.
25:59 Speaker 02 Exactly. It gradually just dissipated.
26:03 Speaker 00 It faded.
26:03 Speaker 02 Exactly, yeah.
26:04 Speaker 00 He probably rose, he wasn't getting anywhere.
26:05 Speaker 02 Exactly, yeah.
26:06 Speaker 00 And you were growing up and you thought, I don't need this anyway?
26:08 Speaker 02 Absolutely, yeah.
26:16 Speaker 00 So you realise that you want to do something with your newfound awareness of your sexuality? I'm now fifteen, come on!
26:23 Speaker 02 I'm a, I'm a man, as far as I was concerned, yeah, I was an adult.
26:27 Speaker 00 And so you go to London?
26:28 Speaker 02 I get the train to London.
26:29 Speaker 00 I mean, is it unbeknownst to your parents?
26:32 Speaker 02 They were asleep.
26:33 Speaker 00 Oh, you mean by night you go?
26:34 Speaker 02 Absolutely, out the bathroom window.
26:36 Speaker 00 Now, oh please.
26:37 Speaker 02 This sounds like a movie, I know.
26:38 Speaker 00 I hope it will be a movie. Give me the time of year, the date, the, how the window opened? Was it, do you open that way or did you have to pull it up?
26:46 Speaker 02 Pull, climb down a ledge, um.
26:48 Speaker 00 What floor are you on, the first floor?
26:50 Speaker 02 First floor, yeah.
26:50 Speaker 00 So you climb out of your bedroom window?
26:53 Speaker 02 Bathroom window.
26:53 Speaker 00 Bathroom window.
26:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
26:55 Speaker 00 Quite a small window then.
26:56 Speaker 02 Yep, yep, got to Canterbury East Station.
26:58 Speaker 00 Hold on.
26:59 Speaker 02 Okay.
26:59 Speaker 00 What are you wearing?
27:01 Speaker 02 Um, I'm wearing civvy clothes and then in my, in my bag, I have a crop top that says Soho in diamantes that I'd shoplifted from New Look.
27:14 Speaker 00 Okay, I'm asking for the detail here.
27:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
27:17 Speaker 00 So you've got, do you have a little bag with you?
27:19 Speaker 02 I do have a backpack, yeah.
27:21 Speaker 00 And you throw that to the ground first?
27:22 Speaker 02 Um, I, I think so, yeah, yeah.
27:25 Speaker 00 That's essential, can I say, when you're escaping?
27:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
27:28 Speaker 00 Because if you don't do that, you don't jump.
27:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
27:30 Speaker 00 Once you've thrown that down, it's got the keys to get back in.
27:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, it was, we were very close to the ground there on the first floor, it was a very small shop.
27:36 Speaker 00 So you jumped from the first floor bathroom window, what time of night is it?
27:40 Speaker 02 This is probably about ten thirty at night, yeah.
27:43 Speaker 00 And your parents have gone to bed?
27:44 Speaker 02 My parents are at bed, my parents are none the wiser.
27:46 Speaker 00 God.
27:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
27:47 Speaker 00 And you wore, how fast is it to get to the station?
27:49 Speaker 02 A ten minute walk, yeah. And then by this point as well, fifteen, I was staying with friends' houses a lot, there was lots of movement, you know?
27:56 Speaker 00 So they might have expected you to be aware of that, it wasn't the end of the world.
27:59 Speaker 02 Hundred percent, yeah, and I was a great liar.
28:01 Speaker 00 And you get onto the last train to London?
28:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, from Canterbury East, through the Medway Towns, through Bromley South into London.
28:10 Speaker 00 What's going through your head, see if you can remember, sense of excitement?
28:12 Speaker 02 Panic.
28:13 Speaker 00 Panic.
28:14 Speaker 02 What have I done? Where am I going? What am I doing? But I was attracted to London, um, like a flight of flypaper.
28:22 Speaker 02 It was like a.
28:23 Speaker 00 Did you know where, did you know where to go in London?
28:26 Speaker 02 I did, yeah, yeah, to right into Soho and to the particularly the London Astoria.
28:31 Speaker 00 And you had read about this?
28:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
28:33 Speaker 00 You've never been before?
28:34 Speaker 02 No, no.
28:35 Speaker 00 So London Astoria is right by Tottenham Court Road.
28:38 Speaker 02 It was, yeah, yeah.
28:39 Speaker 00 You came out of the tube station, you turned right and then right again.
28:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:43 Speaker 00 Began walking down and forgive me.
28:46 Speaker 02 You've been to the, you must have been to the Astoria.
28:48 Speaker 00 Indeed, I have been, I may have, who knows if I could have met you.
28:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:53 Speaker 00 In nineteen ninety, which is what the year was.
28:55 Speaker 02 Oh, no, two thou-, this would have been two thousand, yeah.
28:58 Speaker 00 Eighty-five, ninety-five, yes, two thousand, forgive me.
29:00 Speaker 02 Two, this may have been two thousand, almost two thousand and one.
29:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, probably on the.
29:06 Speaker 00 So you're coming up for sixteen.
29:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, still way too young to be doing all this.
29:10 Speaker 00 Of course.
29:11 Speaker 02 Here we are.
29:12 Speaker 00 But there you are, you get out of the tube.
29:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:14 Speaker 00 And you walk down the street.
29:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:16 Speaker 00 And you buy a ticket, what happens?
29:18 Speaker 02 I line up outside the London Astoria, full of nerves, tummy full of nerves, um.
29:23 Speaker 00 Have you put on your top by then?
29:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, oh yeah, I'm absolutely ready, there's gel, there's probably glitter gel in my hair.
29:28 Speaker 00 In the train?
29:29 Speaker 02 On the, in the rancid toilet on the train, yeah, yeah, somewhere probably between Gillingham and Chatham.
29:35 Speaker 00 Good, that's where it was. And you put your nice little outfit, your suit and things back in the, in the.
29:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:42 Speaker 00 And how much money have you got on you?
29:44 Speaker 02 I've probably got about forty quid, including train ticket, mi- minimal.
29:49 Speaker 00 So how much would it cost to get in to.
29:51 Speaker 02 Ten, ten pounds, yeah.
29:53 Speaker 00 Did you have courage from drinking or taking anything at that time?
29:57 Speaker 02 I definitely drank, I think I probably drank on the train, I'd tasted alcohol by this point many times, I was drinking with friends at the weekend and I remember the first time I ever had a drink, it was by myself at home, I bought a big bottle of was it White Lightning?
30:15 Speaker 00 Hmm, yeah.
30:16 Speaker 02 Strong stuff that, and I drunk a lot of it, I remember I was watching Graham Norton on TV and Graham was like spinning round in circles, it was like the early So Graham Norton show. And I went out into the garden, I was probably fourteen at this stage, and I, everything came up.
30:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:34 Speaker 00 But by the time you were sixteen, you were handling it better.
30:37 Speaker 02 Oh.
30:37 Speaker 00 But nonetheless, there you are. You go into the London Astoria.
30:41 Speaker 02 I get in.
30:42 Speaker 00 And do you think, yes, because they obviously let you get in because you were too young.
30:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think I just kind of dipped my head down. They might have flashed. I had a fake ID.
30:50 Speaker 00 Oh, which you had made, your own fake ID.
30:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, I bought it from a store and and you could just get like fake N U S cards and I think just they were just very slack there. And I just sort of flashed my ID and there was a very young crowd at the Astoria.
31:05 Speaker 00 Did you feel when you went in?
31:08 Speaker 02 Nerves, excitement, anticipation.
31:12 Speaker 00 Happy or just?
31:13 Speaker 02 Elated.
31:14 Speaker 00 Elated.
31:14 Speaker 02 Elated. I remember the double doors swinging open and looking out into the vast main room of the Astoria and seeing thousands and thousands of people and thinking, oh, my God, I'm not alone anymore. I remember the relief of that, of seeing thousands of gay people, literally. Tops off, kissing, sweaty room, smelling of poppers and, you know, and I just thought, oh, I'm home.
31:41 Speaker 00 Is that when you had your first boy on boy kiss?
31:44 Speaker 02 Many, that first night.
31:46 Speaker 00 The first night?
31:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, oh, yeah, for sure.
31:48 Speaker 00 If you're there, go for it.
31:49 Speaker 02 Absolutely. Immediate sexual liberation. I I think that is the first time I ever kissed someone. I'm pretty sure it is. Yeah. Yeah.
31:58 Speaker 00 And that was the beginning of really what was ten years of.
32:02 Speaker 02 Excess.
32:03 Speaker 00 Of excess.
32:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
32:05 Speaker 00 Tell me the best of the ten years and then the worst.
32:09 Speaker 02 The best of the ten years would be hanging out with people from every walk of life and just mixing with the most fabulous friends in high places, friends in low places.
32:20 Speaker 00 Give me a specific example. Give me the best night that you can remember.
32:23 Speaker 02 Oh, my Lord.
32:24 Speaker 00 Who was there? What happened?
32:26 Speaker 02 Getting invited to award shows and I remember being invited to the Brit Awards and then being at some afters with Rihanna and Mark Ronson and Amy Winehouse, who I was friends with at the time, and just thinking, oh, my God.
32:42 Speaker 00 You say we're friends with Amy Winehouse. Did you feel you were real friends?
32:46 Speaker 02 Definitely, yeah.
32:47 Speaker 00 So what do you share with us of Amy and your friendship?
32:52 Speaker 02 She was living in the middle of Camden, up the road from where my my flat was at the time. We'd hang out together with lots in the day. Um. She'd go for days without sleeping, obviously, you know, for for obvious reasons. And so sometimes you'd get her in all different states, but she was um fundamentally a lovely human being. Very caring, very nurturing. She'd always have friends around her. Um. You would go around. She had a sunbed in her house. I'd go around and have a sunbed. Um. And there was obviously lots of madness around as well, but I was in a I was in an absolute mad stage of my life as well, so.
33:28 Speaker 00 Because you were going up all night, some nights and being crazy.
33:33 Speaker 02 Mo- mo- most nights.
33:35 Speaker 00 Most nights.
33:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:36 Speaker 00 When then did you leave home?
33:39 Speaker 02 I left home at eighteen to go to London College of Fashion. Yeah.
33:43 Speaker 00 So at the moment, in these early years of going to London, you're just going for the day. You're going for the day or the night. You're staying away a few nights. You're sleeping on other people's floors, et cetera.
33:51 Speaker 02 Exactly. Day trips, just like that. First day at the zoo.
33:55 Speaker 00 Tell me about the worst. If our night with Amy Winehouse and others is the best, what's the worst in that ten years between sixteen and twenty five?
34:03 Speaker 02 So many bleak kind of late mornings, still being up, and lots of drink and drugs. Um.
34:10 Speaker 00 What is late morning? I mean, it's when you've not been asleep at all.
34:13 Speaker 02 I mean, sometimes it's forty eight hours.
34:15 Speaker 00 Forty eight hours a week, sustained by drink and drugs.
34:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:19 Speaker 00 And what are the drugs that one takes to keep you going?
34:21 Speaker 02 Took a lot of cocaine and um drunk lots of alcohol. They were my two main things.
34:25 Speaker 00 And how could you afford this?
34:27 Speaker 02 Oh, at the time I was DJing and I was throwing parties and I was, I think, at my absolute worst, I was probably twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, twenty four. So at this stage, I was I was sort of in the workforce of London club land.
34:40 Speaker 00 And during those nine, ten years.
34:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:43 Speaker 00 Were you being very promiscuous?
34:46 Speaker 02 Um. I've always been quite a sexually open person, and so promiscuous, I don't know if that's the.
34:52 Speaker 00 No, you're correcting me quite rightly. You wouldn't see it as promiscuous.
34:55 Speaker 02 I don't think so.
34:56 Speaker 00 Some people, out people outside, and that's probably why I automatically use the word.
35:00 Speaker 02 Would call me a slag.
35:01 Speaker 00 No, no, not necessarily. They might call some people a slag, but they would think that in the gay world, there is a.
35:11 Speaker 00 More casual approach to physical contact between gay people than you might find among hetero people. I don't know whether that is true or not, but that would be the perception.
35:23 Speaker 02 Definitely would be a perception, and I think that isn't always the case, and I think sometimes it is the case. And I know heterosexual people who are more promiscuous than some of the queer people I know, and vice versa.
35:37 Speaker 00 But in the open, the openness that you had, did you, how quickly did you work out the difference? And is there a difference between love, a loving relationship and an exciting sexual relationship?
35:52 Speaker 02 Encounter.
35:53 Speaker 00 And what is the difference and can both be kept in parallel?
35:58 Speaker 02 I think both could be kept in parallel. I think intimacy and conversation and a deeper connection with love. And sometimes you just wanna scratch an itch. And if there's two consenting parties or three consenting parties, then why not? We're here once.
36:18 Speaker 00 Good.
36:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:19 Speaker 00 So you're going to London.
36:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:22 Speaker 00 You ran away in the middle of the night.
36:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:24 Speaker 00 When did your parents discover that you've been to London?
36:27 Speaker 02 Quite soon into my nocturnal adventures.
36:30 Speaker 00 And did you go out of that window more than once?
36:33 Speaker 02 Oh, definitely, yeah.
36:34 Speaker 00 That was your means of exit?
36:36 Speaker 02 Absolutely, yeah, several times, over several successive weekends. And then I was very open with friends at school about it and I, about, you know, I was telling them, I was, I was slept with this guy. And I, he took three pills and I, and we went here, we went there. And out of concern, they told my teacher, Mr. Bailey, and he.
37:03 Speaker 00 Mr. Bailey, the headmaster?
37:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:06 Speaker 00 The person who had a complicated interest in you?
37:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
37:09 Speaker 00 Wow, they innocently went to him because they were worried about you?
37:13 Speaker 02 Exactly, yeah.
37:14 Speaker 00 And was this boys in your class or probably girls?
37:17 Speaker 02 This was girls. It was a mixed group, but it was mainly girls.
37:21 Speaker 00 And it was well intentioned, you think?
37:22 Speaker 02 I think it was. I actually, as I was writing the book, I got in touch with, with one of them on Instagram and had a chat with them about it. I got their number and I had a chat with them about it. It was quite therapeutic. And they said it was well intentioned, yeah.
37:38 Speaker 00 So what did he do, Mr. Bailey?
37:40 Speaker 02 He told my parents.
37:42 Speaker 00 Well, probably as the headmaster, that was the right thing to do because.
37:46 Speaker 02 Without telling me first, so there was no conversation with me.
37:49 Speaker 00 He didn't bring you in and say, look, we've got a problem here.
37:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think the ethics in the situation are quite grey.
37:58 Speaker 00 So you went to see your parents?
38:00 Speaker 02 He called them up.
38:01 Speaker 00 Called them up?
38:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:02 Speaker 00 Because he knew them, because he'd been around the house.
38:04 Speaker 02 Exactly.
38:04 Speaker 00 Trying to ingratiate himself with them.
38:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:07 Speaker 00 While he was grooming you.
38:08 Speaker 02 And so this could also have been part of a, some kind of very strange.
38:12 Speaker 00 Controlling, yeah, I now know this about your boy.
38:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And subsequently ruined my life as I saw it in that stage.
38:22 Speaker 00 So what happened?
38:23 Speaker 02 My trips to London were cut.
38:25 Speaker 00 Tell me, forgive me, sorry. The day this happens, Mr. Bailey reports to your parents, and then what happens? Literally, the detail.
38:31 Speaker 02 I get home from school, um, my sister is dropped off um to my grandmother's house.
38:38 Speaker 02 And I'm sat opposite my parents, they're sat on a two-seater sofa, and I'm opposite them. And they challenged me on what they've heard, asked me if it's true.
38:49 Speaker 00 Does your father lead this?
38:50 Speaker 02 Yes, mum's crying. Um, dad is um
38:57 Speaker 02 angry slash confused slash wanting to get to the bottom of this slash disappointed. I think everyone's worried, including me, about what this situation means.
39:08 Speaker 00 And how old are you?
39:09 Speaker 02 I'm fifteen, about to turn sixteen. It's so many emotions and it was so traumatic um to be dragged out of the closet, to have the power of of coming out to my parents taken away from me by someone else. Um, I just felt like it was, it was obviously a complete betrayal. Um, I was worried about my, the the new London life that I'd started forming and the new friends that I'd started grouping around myself. Um, who I was comfortable with, who I was having fun with, who I was going out with, and the clubs themselves that I was going to, all that was suddenly ripped away from me.
39:46 Speaker 00 Because your father said you cannot go to London anymore?
39:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'd been found out and.
39:52 Speaker 00 And you felt you had to obey?
39:54 Speaker 02 Um, I was trying to work out ways around it and I couldn't see a way out of this because I still wanted to carry on and go out and I was, I've always been such a, like I said, I was so cocky. I was like, how do I still go to London?
40:06 Speaker 00 How did that day end? Your mothers and tears, was there any hugging? Was there, there was no reconciliation at the end of the day?
40:13 Speaker 02 No, no.
40:13 Speaker 00 Did you cry?
40:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, definitely. In my room.
40:17 Speaker 00 Afterwards?
40:18 Speaker 02 Yeah. I'm in my room, I'm crying, I'm worried, I'm, I did, the, the suicidal thoughts were rolling around in my head. I think that's the only, only time in my life I've ever thought, what's the point in being alive? That definitely rattled around in my head.
40:35 Speaker 00 And was there anyone you could talk to? Did one have phones in those days? Yes.
40:38 Speaker 02 We started to have mobile phones in those days. So, and I, I did text a few people saying, I can't see you anymore, this has happened. That there was, there was a bit of that, like, don't contact me, don't.
40:47 Speaker 00 So how did the next phase go?
40:51 Speaker 02 Um.
40:52 Speaker 00 With your parents and being at home and?
40:54 Speaker 02 My dad stopped talking to me entirely. My dad, um, wouldn't say anything to me. He'd eat his dinner in a different room. Yeah, yeah, there was, he completely cut me off, living under the same roof.
41:07 Speaker 00 And if your dad was in the house when you left it, did you slam the door a bit more loudly than you did?
41:12 Speaker 02 Definitely. Lots of that. To be honest, I got queerer. I probably blasted Kylie louder. The Avita soundtrack, louder. Yeah. I, and I got quite into female rap. Lil Kim, Missy Elliott, lots of expletives and I'd just turn it up to full volume. Yeah.
41:35 Speaker 00 But at school, you went back to school and you went, got on with your work?
41:38 Speaker 02 I did.
41:45 Speaker 00 Can you remember the moment you first dressed up as a girl?
41:47 Speaker 02 Hmm. I, well, eighteen years old, early, early London days, I'd already been hanging, I was back on the club scene at this point, um, and I'd found my, my ways.
42:00 Speaker 00 Yes, because you were eighteen by then and you were going to.
42:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, and even at seven, exactly, and even at seventeen, I think my parents just thought, we can't control.
42:07 Speaker 00 Your father had given up on you.
42:09 Speaker 02 My father had given up.
42:09 Speaker 00 And your mother still loved you and did her best.
42:12 Speaker 02 They, they, exactly, and I think they just gave up on, um, handcuffing me.
42:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
42:18 Speaker 02 To cancer.
42:19 Speaker 00 So fundamentally disagreed about you and it was the tension in the house that they began to move apart as well.
42:23 Speaker 02 Definitely, yeah.
42:24 Speaker 00 Once you began eating meals in a different room.
42:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, the marriage was over, really, and I'm sure, pretty sure I was the catalyst. Yeah, there were obviously underlying problems as there would be, but.
42:36 Speaker 00 It's always complicated, isn't it?
42:37 Speaker 02 I imagine it kind of came to, their marriage came to blows at the same time as my dad's disowning of me.
42:43 Speaker 00 Back to the, at a club, and this is your first time thinking, I'm going to dress as a girl.
42:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, I, I'm hanging out with drag queens at this point, I've kind of found my way into some groups of friends that included some drag queens, I've always hung out with people that are older than me and they're getting me into clubs for free at this stage, and I just thought, this is so glamorous, we're at Heaven, we're in the departure lounge at Heaven and they've got drinks, tickets in their handbag and I don't have to buy my own drink at the bar.
43:10 Speaker 00 And you say Heaven, you mean literally the club Heaven at the Giant Cross?
43:12 Speaker 02 Literally Heaven under the, which you've probably been to.
43:16 Speaker 00 I've been to, I have to tell you, rather lovingly, I first went to Heaven before you were born.
43:21 Speaker 00 I was taken to Heaven by my friend Noel Davis.
43:23 Speaker 02 Okay, yeah.
43:23 Speaker 00 Who thought we'd had a, quite a merry evening, it was an extraordinary evening, actually, which another time I'll tell you all about. But it can, the first part of the evening concluded with a pair of us on our knees.
43:35 Speaker 02 Oh.
43:35 Speaker 00 Doing a salam.
43:36 Speaker 02 Oh.
43:37 Speaker 00 To someone who got out of a car in the West End of London, and the person who got out of the car was Yul Brynner.
43:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:43 Speaker 00 An actor who'd played the King of Siam, the King and I.
43:46 Speaker 02 Right.
43:47 Speaker 00 And Noel got me down on my knees and we bowed and we said, welcome to England, oh King of Siam. And that got Noel going, and he said, we're going to heaven.
43:54 Speaker 02 Okay.
43:55 Speaker 00 And he said literally, and he took me down to heaven, and it certainly was extraordinary. In those days, the waiters were on roller skates.
44:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:04 Speaker 00 With little white silk shorts.
44:06 Speaker 02 Wow.
44:06 Speaker 00 And it was quite fun.
44:08 Speaker 02 Was the fish tank in the departure lounge?
44:09 Speaker 00 Certainly was.
44:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, dead fish floating on the top.
44:13 Speaker 00 It was, anyway, so you were a regular at heaven.
44:15 Speaker 02 I was also down on my knees at heaven.
44:19 Speaker 02 I was a regular, um, I was hanging out with these drag queens and I, and they were just sort of celebrities to me, you know, they were like actual club land superstars. And I thought, I want to do drag. And the, I think dressing as a girl is not how I described my early days in drag. There was lots of experimentation with club kid looks and blue face paint and flower pots on my head and different kind of.
44:44 Speaker 00 Well, I remember in the early days of me being interested in this field, being told by a drag artist, you're not dressing as a girl, you're dressing as a woman. And that was made very clear to me. Interesting difference.
44:56 Speaker 02 Okay.
44:56 Speaker 00 We are women.
44:57 Speaker 02 Okay.
44:58 Speaker 00 We're not girls.
44:59 Speaker 02 I think I, at some point I was just dressing like an alien, I think. Just anything that would make me as different as possible and stand out.
45:06 Speaker 00 Remember it, and this is about first memories.
45:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:10 Speaker 00 The first moment of dressing up.
45:14 Speaker 02 In drag.
45:15 Speaker 00 In drag, and the bit that was the most exciting bit for you, how it felt, how you looked.
45:22 Speaker 02 I had gone to the MAC cosmetics store on Carnaby Street and had my eye makeup done. The girl had asked me, um, you know, what, what do you want, any specifications? I said, just really simple, just some flicks and just some blue eyeshadow and just some, just want to look like a gorgeous girl. And I then put sunglasses on and went to heaven. And I did the rest of my face myself in the dressing room at the side of the stage. And it was hot as hell. This would have been the summer of two thousand and three. It was boiling hot and everything I was putting on my face was melting off.
46:02 Speaker 00 So you're eighteen?
46:03 Speaker 02 Yes.
46:04 Speaker 00 What about the hair?
46:05 Speaker 02 A red, um, there was, there was a fringe. It was a sort of a red, long, just very girly hairdo. The first time I ever did drag actually was quite girly. I'd shaved my legs. I was covered in cuts from shaving on my legs. Um, bath full of blood, um, you know, it was just, it's very slapdash. I was just trying, I was just trying to get by.
46:26 Speaker 00 Were you pleased with the look at the end of it?
46:27 Speaker 02 I thought I looked like a million bucks. Yeah. I looked at myself in the mirror and I just thought, oh yeah.
46:33 Speaker 00 Did you later, when you came to do therapy, when you decided to go sober?
46:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:38 Speaker 00 Uh, did you discuss with your therapist? Have you thought through why? Being this attractive boy Jay, wanting also to be this phenomenon that is now Jodie.
46:51 Speaker 02 Yeah. I don't know that I've ever gone into detail in therapy about it because I've always been so comfortable with it and I've always found it so exciting and so creative. And it's the body as, it's the body as a canvas and it's the performance and it's the, I've just never,
47:12 Speaker 02 it's just never been something I've.
47:13 Speaker 00 When did you come up with the name Jodie?
47:15 Speaker 02 Um, it was, the name was given to me early on, um, early on in the.
47:18 Speaker 00 You mean somebody thought of it or, or one of the managers who was actually employing you said, you, we need a good name?
47:23 Speaker 02 One of the queens. Yeah. One of the other queens.
47:25 Speaker 00 And the harsh?
47:27 Speaker 02 Just given, the whole name was just given to me.
47:28 Speaker 00 Just Jodie Harsh? And you thought, yeah, why not?
47:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:30 Speaker 00 I'll go with that.
47:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, fab. Yeah.
47:32 Speaker 00 And are you more comfortable as Jodie or more comfortable as Jay? Or doesn't it really, you're just different?
47:38 Speaker 02 Um, I think it depends on the spatial context. I wouldn't get into drag at home to hang out because it's so incredibly uncomfortable.
47:50 Speaker 02 It's itchy and it's painful and it's, and it's the way you sit and position yourself. It's just, there's a lot to think about and the, the lashes are itchy and it's not a comfortable thing. No one ever said that doing drag was comfortable.
48:03 Speaker 02 Um, I feel in a, in a public space, I'll only go out in drag because that's my public um presentation and I feel it just gives me that extra, it's like armour. Bit of a cliche, but you know, it's, it's that layer of armour and that layer of, it's my, it's my kind of like, if I, if I worked in the city, I'd be wearing a suit and I'd act a bit differently and I would have some more confidence because I'm in, I'm in my work clothes, you know, and I'm ready to work and that's how I feel when I'm, when I'm in drag, yeah.
48:39 Speaker 00 But when you go to sleep, you are J.
48:41 Speaker 02 Absolutely. As soon as I get through the front door, the lashes are off in the cab and I get through the front door and it's being scrubbed off and that's a whole process in itself.
48:50 Speaker 00 Yes, and you are fundamentally a bloke.
48:52 Speaker 02 I am indeed, yeah.
48:54 Speaker 00 That's what Dan LaRue, who I was lucky enough to know for many years, when Dan was very young, in the nineteen sixties when I first saw him, he was the most beautiful girl you've ever seen, he looked so brilliant.
49:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, he looked more matronly as the years went back.
49:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:09 Speaker 00 But he always, I mean, he would come on and say, watch your coat.
49:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
49:12 Speaker 00 Come on and say, watch your mate.
49:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:14 Speaker 00 You know, you make it clear that this is a bloke dressed as a girl.
49:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:17 Speaker 00 And he always was.
49:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:18 Speaker 00 A, a, a bloke.
49:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I'm so over the top that I don't, I don't, you know, the hair's so big and then I just, and I don't think I'm.
49:24 Speaker 00 You're a character.
49:25 Speaker 02 I'm, I'm a character.
49:26 Speaker 00 You're a phenomenon.
49:26 Speaker 02 Exactly. I don't think I'm, I'm fooling anyone. And I've also, I never went through um any kind of deliberation in my head on my personal gender. I've never felt like perhaps, perhaps I was born in the wrong body, ne- never anything like that. So many of my friends are trans and, and non-binary and I mean, I've, you know, some, one of my best friends is um a trans man and they do um, but they do drag. And so, you know, the, there were so, there were so many layers and so many different, uh, different.
49:58 Speaker 00 I mean, I get the impression you're totally easy with yourself.
50:00 Speaker 02 Totally easy, yeah.
50:02 Speaker 00 Happy to be J when you're J and you're happy to perform as J because that's how you earn a very good living.
50:07 Speaker 02 A good living.
50:08 Speaker 00 And well done you.
50:08 Speaker 02 And I love to pop my hand into that, that pot of gender expression. And I feel lucky to be able to do that. Um, and it's performance and and I, you know, I'm so inspired by really over the top women and and and I love to sort of channel that in what I do.
50:24 Speaker 00 Let's get to the end of these crazy years because you have nine years, which includes this rift, total rift from your father.
50:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
50:32 Speaker 00 Who you never speak to again, basically.
50:34 Speaker 02 We begin to patch.
50:36 Speaker 00 Oh, good.
50:36 Speaker 02 Our relationship a little bit um when I'm in my early twenties and I'm living in London, we.
50:43 Speaker 00 You see him occasionally and by then has he left your mother, they've split up.
50:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, they've divorced at this point and we see each other now and again and we have a coffee and it's very forced.
50:53 Speaker 00 Does he ever see you performing as?
50:54 Speaker 02 No, he didn't know. I do drag.
50:57 Speaker 00 Oh.
50:58 Speaker 02 Yes.
50:59 Speaker 00 And you didn't tell him because you wanted to make him feel uncomfortable.
51:01 Speaker 02 He did find out and I knew that he wouldn't understand it. I knew he wouldn't like it or appreciate it. The irony here is I was listening to David Bowie with him when I was a kid and Grace Jones and all these sort of gender queer artists. Um, he did find out I do drag. My family kept it from him. My mom um never told him. My sister never. We were kind of sworn to secrecy um because we knew that it would explode again, there'd be um.
51:30 Speaker 00 And did he explode again? Was it distressing to him again?
51:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, he was watching, he was watching TV with his new wife and I appear on screen. His wife knew that I do drag. Um, and he was the only person really that didn't didn't know. And I appear on screen and he recognizes my voice. He recognizes my facial features and he turns to his wife and he says, is that my son? And she says, yes. And from that day onwards, we never spoke again, ever, not once.
51:59 Speaker 00 And he died?
52:00 Speaker 02 He died a couple of years ago.
52:02 Speaker 00 Did you go to his funeral?
52:03 Speaker 02 I did, yeah, yeah. And from the.
52:06 Speaker 00 Was that difficult for you? How did you feel on that day?
52:09 Speaker 02 I felt that it was such a shame that we never connected and we never found that place where we could um where he could accept me. I was also always aware that it was his responsibility to, if he was, if there was going to be any contact, it would have been his responsibility as a parent. Um. My sister always says, you know, don't, don't worry about reaching out. Don't worry about writing a letter. Don't, don't. It's just, just, just leave it. You let it go. Absolutely. And I've always believed that it was, um. Really his, his problems.
52:42 Speaker 00 But you stayed close to your mother?
52:43 Speaker 02 Very, very close. Yeah.
52:45 Speaker 00 And she's seen you performing?
52:46 Speaker 02 Oh, my God. She's been on so many nights out and, oh, yeah, tons. She loves it.
52:51 Speaker 00 That's great. So what brought you to decide I've got to stop the drinking and the drugs and the crazy life I'm leading?
53:00 Speaker 02 It was all very normal to me because everyone around me was, was doing it pretty much. I was just in that party scene. There was lots of drink, lots of drugs. It was, it was on offer on a, on a mirror or a plate or a corner of a credit card everywhere I went. And it just felt very normalized. I had a few friends that got sober. They seemed like little beacons of light when I, as I was going into my lowest depths of, of addiction. And I woke up one day, um, twenty five years old, twenty fifth of June, two thousand and ten. And the worst hangover of my life, as I said, and I realized that that can't go on. That behavior can't go on because I, I, I think I realized that I would end up dead.
53:45 Speaker 00 So what was the specific action you took?
53:48 Speaker 02 I went to a recovery meeting two days later.
53:51 Speaker 00 With A A or N A?
53:53 Speaker 02 Yes, yeah, it was N A. Yeah.
53:56 Speaker 00 And one of your friends who was a regular said, come with me.
53:59 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
53:59 Speaker 00 You went together?
54:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. And I've another, another place that I put myself in where I'd never been so nervous in my life. It was similar to going to a club for the first time, doing drugs for the first time. I kind of threw myself into this physical space that made me feel very uncomfortable, but I knew I wanted to and had to do it. Um, I recognized some faces in the room, people that I'd known and had sort of dropped out of my life. The, the, the hour went by in a complete blur, there was a lot to take in. And at the end, I was told to keep coming back, and I did. And then I found myself with a ninety day key ring and being so proud about being clean
54:41 Speaker 02 as ever for ninety days and having forced myself into this world of recovery.
54:47 Speaker 00 And what of all the, the, the steps, what for you was the most helpful?
54:53 Speaker 02 Step one.
54:54 Speaker 00 Which is?
54:55 Speaker 02 Powerlessness, accepting powerlessness.
54:58 Speaker 00 And what does that mean? That you have no control, that you are?
55:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:02 Speaker 00 I mean, do people explain to you what that is?
55:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Step one, i- i- it's all about, um, kind of really acknowledging that you have a problem, which was plain to see to myself and everyone around me. Um, and I, and I, I, I think when I, when I got a sponsor and I, and I worked the steps, I was kept on step one for a really, really long time, months and months and months. And I just wanted to, you know, I was just wanted to progress through the steps and, and get to step twelve so I can get my own sponsees. And, um, I was told not to rush and I was kept on step one for a really, really long time. And I think that that base step is what's kept me sober for such a long time.
55:47 Speaker 00 For some elements of AA, I know there's a faith aspect to it.
55:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:52 Speaker 00 Is there for you, has faith been part of it?
55:54 Speaker 02 No, the word God is used and I, and I don't, um, apply it in any religious sense.
55:59 Speaker 00 But it can be used more broadly, it can be, you can make of it what you wish to make.
56:03 Speaker 02 It's the universe, exactly, yeah. Um, and I, I, I definitely wouldn't say that I'm in the middle of the program right now, but I am still clean.
56:10 Speaker 00 But you still go to meetings?
56:11 Speaker 02 Very, very occasionally, yeah.
56:13 Speaker 00 How interesting, because most of my friends were in AA, the meeting is everything still.
56:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. It was for a long time.
56:19 Speaker 00 Because you become almost addicted to the meetings.
56:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, a hundred percent.
56:22 Speaker 00 In the way that you were addicted to other things.
56:24 Speaker 02 Because they can be really fun.
56:25 Speaker 00 Yeah.
56:26 Speaker 02 I mean, they can, you hear, you hear lots of stories, there's lots of comedy in those rooms as well as tragedy, you know, you can really, you can learn so much about humankind in those, in, you know, the back of a hospital or a church.
56:38 Speaker 00 And can you remember the first day that you felt really good after you joined AA?
56:45 Speaker 02 I think the first time I went out and DJed sober, yeah, and the day after realising that I can be in a club environment and I can continue.
56:52 Speaker 00 And did it work even better because you were more in control of yourself?
56:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, it felt like a hurdle that I had to get over, just because being in that environment, obviously where there's alcohol and these places are kept open via the sale and consumption of alcohol. I was worried about continuing my career and my passions for nightlife and club culture as a sober person. But when I realised, the first time I ever DJed sober, I realised I could do it. I was elated the day after. I thought, okay, right, we're in. I'm a couple, you know, I'm a month sober. I've been to a club sober. I can do it. I can do that again.
57:31 Speaker 00 Yay. And you have been and you are.
57:33 Speaker 02 Oh, I'd still think that every time.
57:34 Speaker 00 What did you learn about yourself when you did go into therapy? When you had, as it were, the breakdown, breakout moment of saying, I'm going to go clean. You join NA, you take the steps, we're moving there, but you also chose to have therapy?
57:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, I did.
57:47 Speaker 00 On the NHS or you paid for it yourself?
57:48 Speaker 02 I paid for it. I didn't do it for very long, but it was a really useful thing to coincide with the recovery programme that I was in.
57:55 Speaker 00 What did you most learn about yourself?
57:56 Speaker 02 That I'm a good person. I'm not a bad person. I think towards the end of my using, I just thought I was kind of trash, trashy. And so I think self-worth and value. Some bad things have happened to me in life, but a lot worse things have happened to other people. And brilliant things happen to me constantly.
58:18 Speaker 00 Speaking of brilliant things, your career as a DJ, you've been hugely successful. People love what you do. But you've also worked with some extraordinary people. You've already mentioned Madonna and Kylie.
58:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's wildest dreams type thing.
58:32 Speaker 00 Who's the most exciting performer you've been in the presence of? I was in the presence of Frank Sinatra.
58:38 Speaker 02 Wow.
58:39 Speaker 00 And I noticed complete control.
58:42 Speaker 02 Let's use Kylie as an example because I spent a lot of time last year on the tour with her. I think the amount of hard work that goes into, I think people might, fans might think that, you know, you have all these managers and teams and they all do all these things. The artist themselves does more work than anyone and there are decisions to be made constantly all day and there are rehearsals and there's physical stuff and there's, there's body recovery and there's performance and there's nerves thrown in every night and there's performance expectations and there's, this is all before getting on stage and performing and remembering lyrics, dance steps, where you've got to be, where you're getting picked up and carried across the stage.
59:23 Speaker 02 I mean, so much must go through Kylie Minogue's head in a day. So many decisions and so many things to remember. It's, it's incredible. And there are just business decisions and there's, you know, hundreds of thousands of tickets being sold and people to entertain and Kylie Wine to sell and videos to make and the next album to record. It's just, it's completely amazing.
59:47 Speaker 00 And you're going to go on in drag forever?
59:50 Speaker 02 I don't know.
59:51 Speaker 00 It's a challenge, but as I say, as you know, I worked with Hinge and Brackett.
59:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
59:56 Speaker 00 And they made a feature. Eventually they, they grew to be as old as the characters they were playing.
59:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:00 Speaker 00 So it can work in maturity. Dan Aru went on.
1:00:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:04 Speaker 00 But he actually had to keep coming back. He kept saying, I'm, I'm giving up the bra and then he had to put it on again.
1:00:08 Speaker 02 A farewell tour like Cher that just keeps happening every few years. I love it.
1:00:16 Speaker 02 I'll always make music. I'll always DJ for sure. I love to make and then to perform music in front of people. I love the energy exchange.
1:00:22 Speaker 00 What's the best music you have made? What's the, because you had things turned into records.
1:00:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've put stuff out. There was a track that I put out called My House, which came out towards the end of the pandemic and that's sort of my biggest, my biggest tune. I'm very proud of that. Um, and when I play that at the end of my sets and everyone goes, ah, and everyone's sort of seeing and seeing thousands of people singing lyrics along with me, I just think, oh my god. I'm just that kid from Canterbury that sort of used to bunk out the bedroom window and get the train to London. And this is all so cool.
1:00:53 Speaker 00 I'm so glad I've met that kid from Canterbury. Well, no, because I feel I've met that kid from Canterbury and I've met, uh, Jodie Harsch, who are living very comfortably inside the same body.
1:01:03 Speaker 02 We can coincide.
1:01:04 Speaker 00 You are.
1:01:05 Speaker 02 We're best friends.
1:01:06 Speaker 00 I think you're more than best friends. I, I think you're lovers in the, in the best sense of the word. I don't think you need necessarily have a partner because you bred your own. But do you protect yourself?
1:01:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, I definitely. And I have my shortcomings as everyone does.
1:01:20 Speaker 00 I'm, I'm pondering why you haven't had a long lasting. Relationship. I mean, is it partly because you?
1:01:27 Speaker 02 I don't think I've looked hard enough for one.
1:01:29 Speaker 00 And also maybe you've been protecting yourself too much. I don't know.
1:01:32 Speaker 02 Maybe I, I definitely think a guard is always raised with me. Yeah, definitely.
1:01:38 Speaker 00 And have you ever been on the brink of it and thought, no, I'm not, I don't want to fall in love?
1:01:42 Speaker 02 Oh, many times. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've definitely had partners that have lasted several months and then I've thought.
1:01:48 Speaker 00 Several months.
1:01:49 Speaker 02 I'll find something to.
1:01:50 Speaker 00 Too much.
1:01:51 Speaker 02 I'll find something to.
1:01:52 Speaker 00 So you are the person who usually spoils it.
1:01:54 Speaker 02 Some, sometimes it's, it's happened, yeah.
1:01:57 Speaker 00 So it goes away.
1:01:57 Speaker 02 Yeah. Sabotage.
1:02:00 Speaker 00 Do you feel you, you're missing something?
1:02:02 Speaker 02 No.
1:02:03 Speaker 00 No.
1:02:03 Speaker 02 I really don't.
1:02:05 Speaker 00 And you don't feel I'm missing something? You don't have children at the moment?
1:02:07 Speaker 02 I don't have children. I think my, um, my, I think my career is like my child. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing that I really nurture and, and constantly therefore.
1:02:18 Speaker 00 You're hugely self-sufficient, Jay.
1:02:21 Speaker 02 I think so.
1:02:22 Speaker 00 You bred your own wife. Here she is, Jodie. You have a career which is your child.
1:02:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:02:29 Speaker 00 Absolutely. And you have no regrets, really.
1:02:31 Speaker 02 No regrets. That's another thing that, that therapy taught me as well. I've been naughty in my life, but I think to go through life with regrets is, is a very sad thing. Um, and so, um. No regrets.
1:02:46 Speaker 00 Fine. Well, I'm recommending to everybody, you had to be there, uh, and you really did have to be there. And I think you've taken us there. Um, I've, I've loved it. People will love it because it's now out in paperback. What's your life lesson? What has life taught you, Jay?
1:03:03 Speaker 02 That things can get better. Stay positive. Keep going. Be nice to people. Work hard. People aren't necessarily going to do any favors for you. Um. Keep going.
1:03:23 Speaker 00 Keep going. Well, I'm glad you stopped by here while I'm keeping going. Jodie Harsh, Jay Clark. I'd like to thank both of you and your offspring for being with us today on Rosebud.
1:03:33 Speaker 02 Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you.
1:03:36 Speaker 00 Oh, my thanks there to Jodie Harsh and also to Jay Clark. I find both of them interesting. And, oh, look, Jodie has signed my book. The book, by the way, is called You Had To Be There: An Odyssey Through Noughties London Clubland. Giles, thank you for the fabulous chat. It was so much fun. That's how I felt about it too, Jodie. And that's published by Faber, and I do recommend it. Yeah. Somebody says about it, "The gutter and the stars. It's all in here." We do get amazing guests on Rosebud. We are very much blessed. Don't know who it is going to be this Friday, but whoever it is, I think it's going to be interesting. Do join us then. Cue the goodbye music.
1:04:21 Speaker 01 It's Elaine Page.
1:04:22 Speaker 00 Oh, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, that's so exciting. Who's it going to be on Friday? Oh, I know. Oh, Jodie will amazing guests on Rosebud. We are very much blessed. Don't know who it is going to be this Friday, but whoever it is, I think it's going to be interesting. Do join us then. Cue the goodbye music.
1:04:43 Speaker 01 It's Elaine Page.
1:04:44 Speaker 00 Oh, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, that's so exciting. Who's it going to be on Friday? Oh, I know. Oh, Jodie will go berserk with this guest for Friday. My goodness. Jodie adored Cher, adores Madonna, has the hots for Kylie. But when I said the name of our guest on Friday, there was melting in the room. Dame Elaine Page is on Rosebud this Friday. Don't say we don't spoil you. Cue the music.
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