Dame Elaine Paige

We're thrilled to announce that our guest today is Dame Elaine Paige! So many of you have told us you'd love hear Elaine's Rosebud, and this conversation will not disappoint. In it, Elaine tells Gyles about her childhood, growing up in a maisonette on Barnet High Street with loving, talented parents who always gave her the right advice. She talks about her schooldays, and how she went to school for the social life... and she talks about being sent to theatre school and modelling gym slips and swimming costumes for M&S as a teenager. Dame Elaine tells Gyles about being in the film Oliver!, about getting naked in Hair and about being auditioned for Evita. She talks about Edith Piaf and the breakdown she had and how her mother and father helped her to recover. This is a wonderful edition of Rosebud, our thanks to Elaine Paige for her time, energy and infectious laughter. Elaine's album, "Miscellaneous Paige", is out now, and available here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miscellaneous-Paige-Elaine/dp/B0H3PXN9PG. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:32Speaker 01

  Welcome to Rosebud, presented by Gyles Brandreth, produced by Harriet Jane, and listened to by you. Yes, you. Cue the music. It's just for you.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Hello, I'm Gyles Brandreth, and this is another episode of Rosebud. It's an episode I've been looking forward to for quite a while because I'm going to be talking to somebody who is a proper friend of mine. I've known her for many years. I could have known her almost since we were born because we were actually born within three days of one another. And I've known her over the years and I've admired her over the years. She is an extraordinary phenomenon. She's an entertainer. She's an actress. She's a singer. I'm actually just listening to her new album. It's called Miscellaneous Paige, and that gives you the clue. Yes, it's a musical memoir from Dame Elaine Paige.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  They call her the first lady of musical theatre for a reason. She first appeared on the West End, I think, in Hair in 1968. Since then, she's been in Grease, in Billy, in The Boyfriend, in Evita, of course, in Cats, in Chess, in Anything Goes, in Piaf. I think it was a one-woman show. In Sunset Boulevard, in, well, The King and I. So many shows. Sweeney Todd, the demon barber of Fleet Street. You name it, and Elaine Paige has been doing it. Follies, she's there. She is one of the greatest. And I've been listening to her on the radio, on Radio 2, on Sunday afternoons, I think for about 20 years, maybe more than that. Anyway. I think she's fascinating, and you will know her, you'll know her voice, you'll know

• 2:32Speaker 01

  some of the shows she's been in, you probably have seen some of them, but you may not know her story, and it may surprise you. I think this is rather a special episode of Rosebud. At last, it is indeed the first lady of musical theatre, Dame Elaine Paige. Enjoy, and cue the music.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Dame Elaine Paige, that's nice too, isn't it? That's very nice.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  It's amazing. Who would have thought it?

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Who would...

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Who would have... Yes, exactly, who would have thought it?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  It is fantabulous.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  You know, some of...

• 3:17Speaker 01

  When did that come? When did you get that? Last year?

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Uh, yes, I, uh, the investiture was in November.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  And who did you have doing the investiture?

• 3:23Speaker 02

  The King.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  You got the Ki...

• 3:25Speaker 02

  I got the King.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Oh, because they do choose.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  I know, do they?

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  So you are a real famous guy.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  I got the King. And, uh, and when I walked towards him and looked him in the eye, I thought, you know, I became overwhelmed and sort of emotional, and it like it sort of welled up in me, like a, ooh, it's a most odd feeling. And, and then I walked towards him and, and he said, um, "Haven't seen much of you these days," or something. And, uh, and then he said, uh, "Still keeping your hand in, are you?" And, uh, I was so sort of, couldn't believe that I was standing there and this was happening. I blurted out, "Oh, yes, yes," I said. "In fact, I'm, I'm just, um, recording a new album." I said, um, "Um, I'll send you a signed copy if you like when it's finished." And he threw his head back and roared with laughter and thought it was very funny, probably because I can't imagine my

• 4:15Speaker 02

  music he'd be interested in at all.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  You don't know, though, but I, so I shall, when it's finished, I shall definitely send him a copy, signed, whether he likes it.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  It's called Miscellaneous Paige.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  And it's called Miscellaneous Paige.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  He would love to receive that.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Do they?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, uh, A, well, but he loves theatre, he loves musical theatre. He really admires Andrew Lloyd Webber, for example.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Yes, they're quite good friends, I think.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  They are proper friends. He made him a Knight of the Garter.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Well, you're quite good friends with him as well, aren't you?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  I, I, I am privileged to, to know him. Um, but I do know that he would be, I'm sure, thrilled to receive your album.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Well, if you'd like one as well, I'll send one to you as well, Charles.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  You would be grateful. It's all happening. All my Christmases coming at once.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, all at once.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I must take you back to the beginning.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Elaine Paige, born the fifth of March nineteen forty eight. What Elaine is your very first memory?

• 5:11Speaker 02

  I think my very, I don't know how old I was, but I think my very first memory would be of my mum, my mother rocking me in her arms, in her lap. And she would sing these little ditties to me. It was like she cuddled and rocking me. So I guess I was very young, a baby probably, I don't know. And, um, and she would sing me these ditties. There were about four or five of them and she always sang them in the same order. And I can, as I'm telling you now, I can hear her singing them. She, it went la di do di, diddy diddy dum.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Who's the luckiest baby underneath the sun, singing every morning before the day's begun? La di do di, diddy diddy dum. Ha, she comes the dream and off she'd go. And there'd be like sort of five, four or five of these ditties always. And you know, the interesting thing, I was thinking about it was that, um, you know, I can hear, not only hear her voice when I think of it, but, um, I can sort of say to myself, well, I could now sing them all to you straight off like that without, without thought. I, so I must have learned those lyrics through osmosis.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  So who, who was your mother? What was her name?

• 6:35Speaker 02

  My, my mother's name was Irene Edith.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Uh, Johnson.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Irene.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Irene Edith Johnson. But um, nobody called her Irene. I don't ever remember anybody calling her Irene. She was known as Dukka.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Dukka.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Dukka or Duck. And when I asked her how this came about, uh, she said it was when she was a child in a pram or a pushchair, whatever it was, and people go, oh, Dukka, Dukka, Dukka, Dukka, chicken, you know how people go like, well, they don't do it anymore, I expect, but, you know, chucking a child under the chin. And it became a nickname for her, Duck, Dukka, Dukka, Dukka, Dukka. But my dad always called her Duck. But and I, and everybody called her Dukka. Nobody ever called her, uh, she was never referred to as Irene.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  And what was he called, your dad?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Eric Edgar Bickerstaff.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Oh, Eric Edgar Bickerstaff.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Yes, that's my real name, Bickerstaff.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  So he was E E Bickerstaff?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  He was.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  And what was he like?

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Uh, dad was, um, he was about five foot ten and, uh, well, obviously he was tall, dark and handsome, like, which he was. And, um.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  What did he do for a living?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  He was, well, the, when the war came along, he, he was part of the war. When he came out of the war, they, she, my mum and dad got married. They knew each other from childhood because they were both born and brought up in High Barnet. Literally practically one street away from each other. So they knew each other as children.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Were they the same sort of age?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yes, uh, exactly the same age. I mean, a matter of months between, between them. And, uh, so they knew each other through their childhood and, um, dad was, he was an estate agent, but really his love was music. And he was a drummer, an amateur drummer, and he had his own band called The Arcadians. And he and his friend from the war days, from the army days, Joe Passy was the bass player. And I think there were about five of them in this band. And, and every, um, Friday and Saturday night, he would, uh, be out gigging.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  And you the only child?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  No, I have an elder sister, Marion. She's three years older than me. After the war, and we know war, uh, he wanted to become a, a professional musician.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  And obviously mum said, I don't think so, darling. You know, that's too precarious, uh, with a family and, you know, we're gonna have a family, bloody blah. So, so that was that out the way. But, but he, he always, and so all my childhood, um.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  There was music.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  There was music in the house and he was never there on a Friday night or a Saturday night because he was always out gigging, come what may, no matter what the weather, when we used to have those pea supers, you remember those? Fog, where you literally couldn't see your hand in front of your face. Dad would still go out to drive with Joe, Passy. One of them would drive and the other one would walk with a great big fog lamp in front of the car. And they would pootle along, I mean, yeah, to get to the gig.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  With the drum kit and everything in the back.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  And the bass in the back, yes, yes, madness.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  And your mother, did she have a job when she wasn't looking after the children?

• 9:46Speaker 02

  My mother was a milliner.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Oh, does that mean a hat maker?

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yes, that's what a milliner is. Yes, she made hats, yes.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Oh, what sort of hats?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  All kinds of hats, depending on the season. I can remember, I mean, she used to, she was always used to say that she trained in the West End. She was very proud that she had to go to the West End, to Dover Street, I think it was, to.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Well, it's Mayfair, it's very fashionable.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Yes, very, she was very proud of that. And she would tell me that, you know, we led a sort of pretty modest life. There wasn't a lot of money around or anything. And she told me once that sometimes she would get the train back from, I suppose, Bond Street or wherever it was, to Finchley, and then would walk from Finchley, which is some miles, all the way along Finchley, North Finchley, past Totridge, all up there, along, down, up Barnett Hill to Barnett. I mean, it was a lot, miles of walking, but she would do that to save the money on the bus fare. So she was a milliner and she was the most creative woman and always beautifully dressed,

• 10:59Speaker 02

  very stylish, never left the house without a hat, ever. And she used to say to me, you're not properly dressed without a hat.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  And did she and your father get on quite well?

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Oh, it was a wonderful marriage.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Oh, lovely.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  They were married over sixty years and I don't ever remember them having an argument. I don't think I ever, ever heard them row or have an argument, ever. They were happy and it was a wonderful childhood. It was a happy household.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Well, describe the building that you're in, is it a house, was it a flat?

• 11:31Speaker 02

  No, we lived, we lived in a masonette.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  On Barnet High Street, over a rubber shop. It sold everything from um beach balls to raincoats to umbrellas, everything to do with rubber. I wonder if it was actually a sort of a front for um

• 11:52Speaker 02

  some kind of gambling thing going on in the back, but people used to go in and out.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Going through the rubber shop, possibly. Yeah, how interesting.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  But anyway.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  And you were upstairs?

• 12:01Speaker 02

  We were upstairs, we lived in a masonette upstairs, it's still there today. And um two bedroom masonette and um.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  You shared with your sister?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  No central heating, I shared a bedroom with my sister.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  What was she called?

• 12:14Speaker 02

  All my life, for eighteen years, until she left to marry her still husband, Richard, and she's now replicating my parents' happy marriage.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Oh, wonderful.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Isn't that great?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  And did you live in bunks or side by side or?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  No, side by side, single beds.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  And did you get on well? You'd live with one person, three years older than you for eighteen years.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's funny because I was thinking about it, you know, and um you know, I I I kind of feel in a way that I I felt like a uh an only child because Marion and I are very different in nature. Entirely different, um she's more like my dad and in in that she looked more like my father, I looked more like my mum. But um Marion is a very um, she's quite shy. Um and kind of very singular and and um doesn't get excited about anything particularly, doesn't show a great deal of emotion.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  And were.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  She's rather contained.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Were you outgoing from the beginning?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  I think I've always been more outgoing, although I was I was also terribly shy. I mean, I can remember um the first day at school, you know, infant school, my mother taking me to infant school and uh oh, I mean, the trauma and anxiety of being pulled apart from my mother, I hung on to her skirts because I I wept. You know, it was traumatic, most traumatic experience. I didn't want to leave my mother. I was pretty much a mummy's girl. And didn't want to go and be in this strange environment with people I didn't know. It frightened the life out of me. That was awful. I I can remember that as clearly as I can remember being rocked with her in her lap.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Uh but Marion and I, we didn't go to the same school either, because we didn't, we, when I was about ten, we left, or eleven, ten, we left High Barnet, I went to East Barnet, and we moved out of this, this masonet to a house in East Barnet.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  What, had something happened financially to make this possible?

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Yes, I think um my father's parents, who lived in Sussex, West Sussex, in Haywards Heath, near Burgess Hill, where we would be sent to on holidays, summer holidays sometimes. Um, I think they were getting older, and the idea was that they would come and live with us. And so, uh, with, they sold their property, and with that, I think that's how we mum and dad managed to buy this house in East Barnet with a garden, something we'd never had before. And they converted the upstairs to an apartment for my grandparents. And my parents, we lived downstairs, and so we shared this house.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  And was that happy? Was it not your grandparents there?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, perfectly fine, it was lovely. I would come home from school and Nana would be upstairs and a cup of tea and a piece of cake, marvelous. And, you know, and I would, and Grandad, and we'd sit and chatter, you know, and in a way, they were, they, because my, both my parents were working still then, and my mother, well, before we left Barnet, she worked part-time in a hat shop across the road from where we lived. And so, again, when I left school, you know, when I was leaving school at the end of the day, I wouldn't go home to the masonets of the flat, I would go straight to the hat shop and, and there's a storage unit upstairs, storage room upstairs, where all the boxes, these great big

• 15:46Speaker 02

  sort of cardboard boxes with all these different hats, and I would spend hours messing around with these hats, trying various hats on.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Do you have hobbies? What were your enthusiasms as a little girl?

• 15:56Speaker 02

  Oh, well, um.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Your dolls?

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Yes, doll, I had a doll called Pamela, and it was quite a tall doll.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  And and I used to, we had a front room which we never used. It was again kept for best. And and I used to go in there and fantasize and make up these stories and pretend I was the mother of this child and I don't know, be standing at a bus stop, talking to other parents or something, or waiting for the school to finish. You know, I I fantasized a lot. I was a daydreamer at school. I didn't, I floundered a bit academically at school, to be honest. And because I was always daydreaming and making up these fantasies and stories in in my head. And I would do that. And I also was, we went ice skating.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  I learned to ice skate. Mum made me a beautiful royal blue ice skating frock with white fur around the bottom of the cuffs. The whole thing and white boots. But we would do that. I did horse riding until I got thrown rather badly. That was bizarre. Well, that was dodgy. I could have. Well, I was um out hacking one day. And as we were coming back to the stables, we're just all walking along together. And a flock of birds flew out of a cornfield or something and my horse reared and bolted. And I came off the horse, but my left leg got caught in the stirrup.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  So I was doing a very good impression of John Wayne being dragged at great speed along this field. And I can remember now laying on my back, like going dum dum dum dum dum and seeing this hedge getting nearer and higher and nearer and higher. And I kept thinking, if this creature jumps that hedge, I'm dead. Luckily, I'm here to tell the tale that the horse was pulled up and but they ma- made me get back on it. And that and I can remember quite clearly being so out of breath. I couldn't breathe. I just couldn't breathe and I thought I was gonna die because I couldn't breathe. I wa- I was winded, badly winded. That was the end of me and horses. I never got on a horse again.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  They wanted to give you a good childhood, didn't they? The ice skating, the riding.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Yes, they were terribly supportive. I mean, you know, anything, Marion took piano lessons and ballet and tap classes. I didn't do any of that, surprisingly. I don't know why. But but they were, yes, we were always had um. Things to do, you know, after school, there were, there were projects.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  When you were eleven, did you take the eleven plus?

• 18:34Speaker 02

  I did.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  How did you do?

• 18:36Speaker 02

  That's my worst memory of failure. I know you were going to ask me about what.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  I'm afraid so.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Yes, and that was it. Of course I failed.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Did you disappoint yourself? Did you disappoint them? Were you conscious that it was a failure?

• 18:46Speaker 02

  No, I don't think I was even disappointed. I, I probably knew I wouldn't pass. I mean, I, I knew I, who I was and I knew my ability. And, and I knew that I, you know, I treated school as a social activity. It was a means to meet my friends and have some fun during the day. But, um, you know, not everybody can be academic, can they? And, and thank heavens, in secondary modern school, um, I had a wonderful music teacher. And that really, I mean, music was the thing that gave me a, a reason to be good at something.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Tell me about this music teacher, because this is the lady who changes your life. What is she called?

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Anne Hill, who's still alive. She introduced me to music that I wouldn't have heard at home. And I'm talking about the classics, really. So Mozart was her, she loved Mozart, so do I. And we did a, we'd have, we'd do sing end of term concerts, Handel's Messiah. I mean, she used to, we were only little, we were only like fourteen, thirteen or fourteen years old. And, but she would, you know, get these big, serious projects and get us all singing three part harmonies and so on and so forth. And I was always in the middle and love harmon, singing with a choir. And that was my first experience. And then, then she did, um, The Boy Mozart.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  And it was like Mama Mia Mozart, really, it was all his hits. And she gave me a solo to sing. And that was my first ever performance in, in public at school, a solo performance.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  And do you remember the sensation of it in your head? Can you?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  I do. I mean, um, I do clearly. I can remember thinking, oh, I know who this character is. I know what it is I'm singing. I know the scenario surrounding it. I know what I've got to do next. I felt, it felt a wonderful place, a safe place to be in that I felt safe, I, because I knew.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  What was going on um and and I like the idea of hiding in a way behind this character. And and I sang the aria, not really knowing what it was about because it was in Italian. But I thought, well, I'll zip it up a bit and make it emotional. And I sort of, you know, uh, emoted towards the end of this aria. And I always remember that all the parents sort of went gasped. And I think and I think, well, I know, because they my parents afterwards said to me, oh, darling, are you all right? You you forgot what you were doing. You you forgot the words. And I said, no, I got very indignant. I said, no, no, I was acting.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  And my father said, oh, sorry, sorry, beggar.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  But it wasn't long after that that um that he suggested to me. I guess I must have been about fourteen or fifteen by now, I expect. It wasn't long after that, he suggested to me, would I like to go to drama school? And it was dad who suggested. I would never have thought of this in a million years on my own.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  He was a performer. He'd love to have been a professional performer.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  He really did. In his heart of hearts, he was a a true musician and would love to have been. Yes, on the stage in some way or other, either as a musician.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  So you fulfilled.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  A comedian as well. I mean, when we went on holidays, sometimes to holiday camp. Down in Middleton-on-Sea or somewhere and you know, they always get people up to do things, don't they?

• 22:31Speaker 02

  My mother was furious. Um, he put on a pair of. He was very had very slim legs, my dad, like birds' legs, and she never allowed him to wear shorts. And he always had to wear trousers and but he he put on a pair of shorts to the knees, you know, khaki.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  I can picture them.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Yes, and and a silly hat and and he sang a song called I'm Not All There. Which was a comic song.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Um, and I think this all came from his parents. I mean, my grandparents on on dad's side used to write um. Monologues and so on and so forth for the Royal British Legion, you know, for the concert party during the war, I suppose. And so that was very much, so I, I think I've got this from him, uh, if I, if I'm creative in any way, it's probably come from that side of the family, although, as I said, my mum did have a lovely singing voice.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  But you may have fulfilled his ambition, which is lovely for him.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Yes, and do you know what was wonderful, though, is that they lived to see it all, you know, and I was able to share it all with them and of course, so proud.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  So, so what drama school did you go to?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  I went to Ada Foster.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Now, that was a school specialising in young performance in children, no?

• 23:46Speaker 02

  Well, it was a, yes, it was a children's school as well as a, a dra-, a student's, I went on a student's drama course of three years, but there was a school, an actual school attached to it. And it was a bit of a shock when I got there because, um, you know, a, a, a regular state school, I was always the, the joker and, you know, out there doing it and having fun, socialising at school. When I went to, um, Ada Foster, they were all, you know, one, would be actors and rather, um, confident young people, which I wasn't at all. So it sort of had a.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Were there boys as well as girls?

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Yes, it was mixed. But it was kind of a bit of a shock because suddenly I thought, oh my gosh, I can't, you know, and it made me, um, I, I, it was the reverse of being confident. I kind of went into my shell and thought, oh, I can't handle this. I don't, these people.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  But you stuck it out, did you?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Well, that's where my father again comes in and says to me, oh, well, darling, you know, you've only been there a term, you know, uh, give it a, give it a chance, you know, anything new. They were always so sensible and fair-minded and thoughtful, you know, and wonderful guidance. And he said, you know, give it, give it a chance and, uh, just give it another term, see how you go, perseverance, persevere. And so I thought, well, you know, and of course, they would have had to have given up a a great deal financially to send me there because you had to pay to go, it wasn't free. So I stuck it up for another term. Well, of course, by the end of the second term, I was, I was in there, I'd made friends and it was all right, you know, and I loved it.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Did you have a crush there? Did you have a boyfriend there?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Oh, there were lots of boys there.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Oh, good. Well done you. Anyone, anyone serious? Can you remember the first?

• 25:42Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, because I always, you know, not having any brothers in the family, uh, men have always been a bit of a mystery to me, really. And even though there were, you know, nice boys there, um, I, you know, the thing was, I always looked so much younger than I was. Even though I was sort of, what, sixteen, seventeen, I looked ten. You know, I was flat-chested, plain, frizzy hair, and boys ignored me. So that was how it was. And but, of course, I would, you know, major in playing urchins and things, um, and, and doing, um, modeling Marks and Spencer's children's wear.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Oh, you were beginning to get work. So when you were at Ada Foster, you're already available for work.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Yes, you could, you, yes, they liked you to go for auditions to.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  And did, were they your agent or did you?

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were agents. They were, they're all part of the school.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Was to supply you as a, a young talent.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  So you.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  So that's how you started to learn about the business, really.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  So.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  While you were studying.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And Roger Moore were, as it were, models before you became famous.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Um, you for M and S.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  M and S. And I used, and the thing I remember quite clearly with Wendy Padmary, my dear friend, who I've just reconnected with recently, we would have to, uh, the Boys and Girls Exhibition. Do you remember that? They used to have those every year at Olympia.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  And Marks and Sparks would have a, a long runway, you know, high up, a proper runway, modeling runway. And Wendy and I would have to model, um, gym slips and a P wear, you know, short. And T-shirts and things, but right at the end, and it was always at sort of like four or five o'clock in the afternoon, which was really unfortunate because by that time all the boys would be out of school and would come along with their pea shooters.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  And Wendy and I would have the last thing that we had to do, which was so awful, would have to wear those awful black regulation swimming costumes.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  And walk up and down this, um.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Oh, it was awful. It was just awful. It was so humiliating and they'd go.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Oh. Aiming them at.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Oh, it was awful, just awful.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  But we were sort of laughing about it only the other week. Yeah. So that I remember quite clearly.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Can I apologize to you on behalf of all the boys and men in the world? I mean, I'm afraid we haven't approved.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  How mean of them, don't you think?

• 28:09Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, we are an absolute disgrace.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Awful, disgraceful.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  In your head, though, you're enjoying the performing. And have you decided in your head, this is going to be my life?

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I guess. I, yes, I, I mean.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Just sort of happened.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  I started to get, um, you know, I, I, as I said, I majored in urchins. So the first show I ever did, I was an urchin in the chorus of Roar of the Grease Paint, Smell of the Crowd.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  The Anthony Newley Show.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Anthony Newley, Leslie Brickus.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  So that was my first experience with Norman Wisdom, Willoughby Goddard, Dillis Watling and Cy Grant.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Someone like the Piccadilly Theatre?

• 28:54Speaker 02

  No, we were on tour.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  And Wendy and I, uh, made it as urchins because we were, we were already sixteen or seventeen years old, but because we were both short and looked very young for our age, they didn't need to pay, um, they didn't need to pay, uh, they didn't have to have a chaperone. That's the word I'm trying to.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Oh, because you were, you were sixteen, though you looked much younger.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  So it was.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  But, but that was, that was the.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  But you're still very young to be touring, two sixteen-year-old girls. Did you share digs together and how did you work?

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Yes, oh, yes.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  And did you feel, were you, were you, were you secure? Were you safe? Was it?

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Oh, no, it was, no, we were absolutely, no, we had a marvelous time.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Norman Wisdom behaved.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  I mean, it was our first taste of independence.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Sixteen years old. I had my hair straightened.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  You know, and Wendy, we we stayed once in a nunnery, that was interesting. And in this tiny little narrow bed with, you know, cross and everything over your head and very sparse, no furniture. And we'd sneak out at night, open the garden gate and sneak out and hope that nobody would lock the gate before we got back, all that kind of thing. We were quite naughty, but it was fun.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Did you go into a pub, do you get a drink? Do you remember your first drink?

• 30:11Speaker 02

  No, I don't think we ever tried that because they wouldn't have let us in.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  What about, do you ever smoke?

• 30:16Speaker 02

  I did eventually take up smoking, terrible. Um, yeah, when I was a little bit older and I smoked for about thirty, forty years.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  I don't now, oh my god, I can't think of anything worse, what a horrible habit. Don't know why, well, you did know why you did it because it was fashionable, wasn't it? You know, in the movies, everybody had a cigarette and you had to have a, you had to drink, you had to have a cigarette with it. It was sort of, it was.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Because you are in some ways quite a shy person, though you're gregarious now.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  I, well, I am.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  It gives you something to do, you know, you look all right.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly, yes.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  You can be smoking and other people can be, whereas if you're sitting around, you feel awkward.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. So that's how that came about, but I'm glad to say I've now given it up.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  So you then become, you're suddenly, you're a performer. You're travelling the country with Wendy, you're in a tour.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  And it goes from there.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Goes from there, then Helen Worth and I were in the film of Oliver as urchins.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  You were.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  I was really good.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  You were Miss urchin.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  I was Miss, I played urchins, yes. So, yeah, that was amazing.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  That was a huge film.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Huge film, the Cowery directed it and on a.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Ron Moody, sorry.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Ron Moody played Fagin.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Was he okay?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Well, we never saw the stars because we were urchins, we were urchins on the side of the street, nobody cared about us. But it was fascinating to be on a film, a major film set like that and watch the, you know, what happened and how it worked. And I was on that for, well, Oliver, the Consider Yourself, which was the sequence that I was involved in, I was there for about two months and then I managed to cajole.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Two months to make that one.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  One sequence, yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Consider Yourself Part of the Family, it's a great sequence. So Jack Wilde played, I think. The Artful Dodger, Mark Lester was Oliver.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  That's right, yes.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Did you like him?

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Oh, they were lovely boys and I and I felt I kind of made it because at the end of um Consider Yourself, I stood right next to uh Jack Wild going, consider yourself, you know, with the arms, you always had to do that, didn't you? And yeah, so I thought, oh, I'm going to be in the front row, next, standing next to the star, you know, Jack Wild. And but I managed to conjure on a white, who was the choreographer. She knew I loved to dance and um and they had a skeleton crew of dancers on the entire movie. And they were all royal ballet dancers, I mean, proper, you know, professionals. And I said, oh, please let me be in Who Will Buy, that was going to be the next sequence,

• 32:57Speaker 02

  you see. I'd love to be in Who Will Buy, can I please be a dancing housemaid? And she sort of looked down at me and she said, but Elaine, no. I said, oh, please, I'd love to be a dancing housemaid. I said, and there was a sequence where you had to do a round kick over a broomstick. Well, a broomstick is quite tall, it's taller than me probably. And she said, well, if you can do the the kick over the broomstick, yes. So I practiced and practiced and rehearsed and rehearsed to be able to do a round kick over the broomstick and catch it, you see. And I got I I got in. I was in for another three months, thank you very much, of Who Will Buy. And I was, so when you see the film, which I'm sure you're not going to rush to see.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  I am again, it's one of my favorite films anyway, but I shall see it now with renewed interest.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Um, there I am as a dancing housemaid with a mop cap and a penny and everything and my broomsticks. But.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  The frame ends there, so I'm doing Harry Worth acting. There's only half of me. And I don't think you see me put my leg over the broomstick, unfortunately, but nevertheless, I I remained on the film for a further three months. It was a fantastic experience.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  But I think you illuminated something that has been the hallmark of you, which is being focused, determined, and doing it properly.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess. I mean, I don't, I wasn't aware that that's what I was doing. It's just that I loved it. I, I just have, you know, I love this, you know, I always say work, not love, is the great affair. And being in this wonderful profession and the theatre, particularly because I've done more of that than anything. That for me has been the great affair for me. That has been my love affair.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  It's a lovely line that. Work, not love, is the great affair.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Well, that's, that's what it's been for me.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  And it's a romance that doesn't let you down.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Keeps coming and coming. You know where you are.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  And also you can hide in there. You know, you can hide. Well, I could until Evita came along, of course.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  So, but before we get to Evita, are you one of the people who's in hair?

• 35:09Speaker 02

  I was, yes.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Most of the people I know who are my age were in hair. And all of them deny taking their clothes off.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Do they?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  They all say they didn't, weren't in the nude sequence.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Really?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  But I think everybody had to be naked, didn't you?

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Well, you didn't have to. It was, it was, it wasn't obligatory, but you were encouraged.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Maybe I'm just thinking of Flora Benjamin. Anyway.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  I was the last, I think, of all of us to do it.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  To take your underwear off.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  It's frightening.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  What, so Hair was an enormous musical.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was nineteen sixty eight.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  And what was the big number in that?

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Let the Sun Shine In, Aquarius.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  And you're twenty years of age.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  About, yes, eighteen, twenty, no, about twenty, I suppose, yes.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Sixty eight, you're twenty.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, am I right? I told you math. I'm no good at math.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Really?

• 35:51Speaker 02

  No, no, there are three people in the world that are good at math, right? There's those that can and those that can't.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  So, you are in Hair.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  And that's a big thing to be, because it's a big show.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Oh, it was enormous, because it was innovative. I mean, it was brand new.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  But also.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Nobody had seen anything like it before.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Because I went to see it, and everyone, the boys and the girls, there's a sequence at the end of act one, as I remember, where you all disappear. They are, you are naked.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  And we had never seen anything quite like it.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  So we spent money on getting tickets in the straws, which we wouldn't normally do.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  With binoculars.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  People did, honestly.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Of course they did.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  So these dreadful men sitting there in the raincoats and.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  I.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  No, no, no, but um.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  It was. Was that, in fact, was that, because that was, people now take it for granted, but nudity onstage in those days.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Well.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Was extraordinary.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Well, it, it, it didn't happen. I mean, you couldn't, I mean, they changed the law, you know that, you know, the, in Parliament. Um, they changed the law the night before we opened.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  There was censorship up and then there was the Lord Chamberlain.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  And the Lord Chamberlain was abolished, and you were then able to open in here and get your kit off.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  That's absolutely right, and it was the day before the show opened. I mean, I think they, you know, they must have. Stigwood, Robert Stigwood, who put the show on and everything, they must have had some in with somebody in Parliament, because it literally was the day before we opened. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to do that scene.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  And was it liberating or was it embarrassing?

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Oh, horrendously embarrassing. And I didn't do it initially. I, I mean, it took me several weeks to get around to doing it. And, and Gary Hamilton, who, God bless him, tall, dark and handsome Gary, and he said to me, look. I'll hold your hand, you know, we'll stand at the back. I don't know why we thought that was going to make any difference, because it was all specially lit, you know, there were pools of light. It was very tastefully done.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  I do know.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  And it was meant to represent rebirth. That's what, I mean, there was a reason for it. It wasn't just.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Gratuitous.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Gratuitous. Um, but nevertheless, and we all had to be under this, and Paul Nicholas never had to do it, because he was. The leading player, he played Claude, and then at a given moment, we all had to pull over this Velcro, which was very new at the time, and made a lot of noise. And stand up through this, with all your bundle of clothes underneath and stand up naked, and it was just horrendous. And there was Gary. And I'm standing next to Gary and, and I, so the moment comes and, oh, I can't tell you how awful it is, and you stood up like that, and it was so awful, and I was so in shock, I put my hand up. To grab hold of his hand.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, it wasn't his hand I was holding. I know, don't, how awful. He just went, oh.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Oh, so funny. It's funny now, but I felt terrible. But, um, no, he never complained. Bless him.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  So he stood next to you every night for the rest of the run?

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Bless him.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  Oh, but once you'd done it, it was like nothing in the end, you know, I mean, just thought, oh, here we go again. And and you did it if you could be bothered to take your kit off.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  But it was a different age, wasn't it? This was, you know, before the the pill got going. What people weren't. Or or maybe it was.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Well, I think.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  I suppose it was later sixties. No, you're right.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  I it was the late sixties and life did change, didn't it then? I mean, and in in every way, really, it was like the breaking down of barriers, all of these cliches, of course, come to mind. And, you know, and and being in London and being young, you know, being that age. There was fashion, Mary Quant and and and all these. King's Road and all of that, you know, there's wonderful little boutiques and there was music and fashion and art, Andy Warhol. Smoking dope and, you know, all, I mean, it was just.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  And did you do a bit of that then?

• 40:05Speaker 02

  In hair, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. I mean, not a lot, but we we thought we were hippies. We weren't really, but, you know, because we were actually all going from very different walks of life, but.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Did you go home in the evening back to your parents?

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yes, oh, yes, initially. And then eventually I am, you know, some of the other gang of friends in hair.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  We wanted to get an apartment, we wanted to be a commune. And so about three or four of us, boys and girls, said, okay, well, we'll take this flat and and each have a bedroom and and live in this commune. And I can remember going home to my dear parents and. Just announcing that I was going to leave home and they were pretty shocked and and said, oh, oh, right, right? And I, oh, God bless him, I said, my dad said and my mum said, oh, and when are you? When are you thinking of doing this, darling? And I said, tomorrow. And and clearly they were shocked and my mother told me years later

• 41:15Speaker 02

  that it's the only time she'd ever seen my dad cry.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Isn't that awful? I felt, oh, are I awful? But I was just young and thinking, oh, yeah, I want to do it. And you know, when you're young, you just want it now, don't you? You want to do it immediately.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  And also as a group of you doing it.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  And the whole.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  And they was, they didn't like the idea that either, that it was going to be mixed, not just girls, it was boys as well.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  This was the age of free love and all that.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  That's it. It was very much so. It was like beings, wasn't it? And lovelings.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  And was there a bit of that for you as well?

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  You did it all.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  I did. I did.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  You did it your way and non, je n'ai rien. Quite right. You got the song to go with it.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  So this is all quite exciting for you.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Oh, it was wonderful time of my life. I mean, this was my university, really, being in this show. That's what it felt like. It was like I was with my contemporaries. I was in this marvelous hit of a of a West End show that was nothing like it had been seen before. Everybody flopped to see it. A Princess Anne and other royals came and danced on the stage at the end. I mean, it was a, it was a huge um novelty at the time. And and to be part of that was very, very exciting indeed. It was, it was fantastic.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Really? You went to the University of Life?

• 42:31Speaker 02

  I did.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  When did you graduate from that university into becoming a star? What was that transition? How did that actually happen?

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Well, well, that was nineteen sixty eight and Evita was nineteen seventy eight, so.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  So it's ten years.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Ten years.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Of you being.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Being struggling actress, yes, and taking bit parts and chorus lines and um you know, waiting for the phone to ring.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  What was the worst moment in that ten years?

• 43:01Speaker 02

  I think the worst moment in that ten years was um when I my boyfriend left me. My car broke down and um the curtains fell down in my flat. And my agent dumped me all on the same day. That was pretty hard to take.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, I'm laughing now, but it was awful at the time. I just thought, oh, crikey, can't get any worse.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  So ten years you have of this this life with that one bad day. And then you find yourself in Evita. How does it just is it an audition? How does that happen?

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, it's just, yes, yes, I auditioned for everything and anything. I mean, I was not selective because, um, you know, when you're um a struggling actor, you have to live, you've got to put food on the table and um you know, and I I I started to get some small parts. Um, I took over in Grease. I did I did Jesus Christ Superstar, which is where I first met Andrew and Tim. I was in the chorus of that. And then I did Grease. I took over um playing Sandy Dumbrowski um in Grease. And then I did Billy with Michael Crawford at the um Drury Lane, and that was a small part that I originated.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  So and Don Black wrote those wonderfully comic lyrics. And um and then uh, you know, and then then it all sort of fell a bit flat. And um but I kept going, but I was nearly thirty by the time I got Evita. I was twenty nine and I kept thinking to myself, oh, uh, you know. I I kept getting down to the last two or three of everything and then, you know, getting the old elbow. And I I said to my dad, I don't think this is gonna work because, you know, everybody else in my life, my girlfriends and people were moving on and um getting married, having children

• 45:01Speaker 02

  or their careers were taking off and they would lead a full life, go out for dinner, go to the cinema, go to the theatre. And I couldn't do any of that because I just didn't have any money. So I was beginning to, it was sort of beginning to wear a bit thin, to be honest. And I'm on the brink of kind of thinking, I think I've had enough, I'm gonna, I obviously, you know, I can't get the parts I want to play.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Thinking of giving up when um Evita came along. So um and again, I didn't really want to go for it because my I did have a new agent by this time, Libby Glenn, dear Libby. And my agent rings me and says, I've got the perfect part for you. I said, oh, yes, what's that? She said, well, and I'd already told her that I didn't want to do any more musicals because I felt that I was, you know, kept going for them, getting close and not getting them. I said, I'm just going to become an actor now. I'm just going to be, I'm going to be Judi Dench. And and so she said, well, I've got this marvelous musical that you must listen to. It's it's out on an album and I want you to go and buy the album and listen to it. You're perfect for the role. I said, I don't want to do any more musicals. And she said, no, no, this one you do.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  You want to listen, just go and do what I say. So I did. And of course, there on that album with all the sleeve notes, the life and times of Ava Perron, the wonderful lyrics, the story, the music. I mean, everything about it. It was like, oh, my gosh, the whole package, everything I would want to do was on this album. And I became slightly obsessed about the idea of playing this wonderful part. And so I rang her back and said immediately, yes, yes, I set me up for an audition. I'll I'll I want to go for it. And that was the start of a very long process of um about, I don't know how many months of um auditioning.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  And every time I went, I would wear the same little blue dress that I bought at Kensington Market. It was a an original forty's blueprint frock. I wore the same um heeled shoes with a ankle strap. And I pinned my hair up in a in the combs to look like a forty's kind of thing and to to create the image of a forty's person. And I sang Yesterday on a Clear Day and on a Wonderful Day like today. Why they all seem to have day in the title is a mystery to me now, but they did. And those are my three audition songs. And um and I sang the same thing every time I went, week after week after week. And in the end, it was whittled down to three of us again.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  But my dad had always said to me, you know, perseverance furthers. You must have something, keep going, stick with it. And we, it became a bit of a family joke, he said, well, there's always Evita. And, uh, anyway, and then I think it was the sort of Easter weekend. I did a final, what I thought was a final audition. And the three of us went on one after the other at the Palace Theatre. And we had to sing our, whatever our audition song was. And do a dance routine, we were taught a dance routine, had to do that. And a meet Harold Prince to speak to.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  He was the director?

• 48:17Speaker 02

  He was the director. And so we all, and I was the, the, the, uh, last to go on. And I can remember when they went, I checked what time it was they went on, just to see how long they were given. And they both had, I don't know, about twenty minutes, something like that, twenty-five minutes. And then it was my turn and I went on and, um. I sang yesterday this time, they didn't want all the others yesterday. And, um, and I did it as a three act play. Um, about lost love and, you know, yesterday it was this and now it's that. And, um, and then how, and then I did the dance routine and then Harold Prince came down to speak to me.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  And, um, and that was that and we left. And, um, I went home with my mother to, for, for Easter weekend. And then on the Tuesday after Easter Monday, um, bank holiday Monday, the phone rang just as I was leaving to drive back to London. And, um, it was my agent and she said, oh, they want to see you one more time. And I said, oh, for goodness sake, they've seen me here. And I started to get a bit upper teeth and she said, uh, well, they, you know, you, you've got to get back here. They want to see you this afternoon. And I said, I can't, I can't possibly. I can't come this afternoon. I'm out of town. I'm in South Coast. I can't possibly.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  And she said, well, you're a very foolish girl. You're going to lose this. Everybody wants this part. I mean, you're going to lose it if you don't accommodate them. They, they, they won't, you know. So I said, no, no, I'm sorry. I can't. I've got to be prepared. I said, I'll, I'll. Tell them I'll go tomorrow at two o'clock in the afternoon. Just tell them you can't get hold of me or that I'm out of town. And and I'll go tomorrow at two P M. And I went back at two o'clock in the afternoon. Um, this time though, to Angeloid Weber's apartment in Eaton Place or Eaton Square there. And I was in a tiny little office, lots of books and and a piano, a baby grand piano. And I was waiting in the library staring at the books.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  And then in comes Andrew, Tim Rice and Hal Prince. And Andrew sits at the piano and they put me through my paces all over again. And I sang practically the entire score, which I didn't really know. And that was the other thing. I never once sang Argentina at the audition, not once. And Tim told me later, he said, it was such a relief to find somebody that would turn up. I'm not singing, don't cry for me, Argentina. So I think that went in my favour as well. But anyway, and they put me through my paces and Andrew said, he must have got me to sing Rainbow High about three times. Uh, back to back. And when I said to him, am I doing something wrong? Why are you asking me to sing it again?

• 51:07Speaker 02

  And he said, no, no, he said, it's just that this one, this is the one in the score that sifts the men from the boys. Because it has a huge three and a half octave range to it. And he wanted, I suppose, make sure that I had the pipes to be able to to do it more than once. And and I remember as I was leaving, they they sort of, Andrew and and um, Hal were sort of leaving and um. And then Tim Rice said to me, uh, oh, that's right. Hal Prince said to me, what what do you, what have you been up to? And of course I hadn't been up to anything other than singing do ups on other people's albums. That's how I made, uh, I made a bit of a living to, you know, keep the wall from the door. Um, singing backing vocals.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  And I told him that's what I'd been doing. And anyway, so the the end of the audition, they left and Tim Rice said to me, I don't think you have to worry about backing vocals much longer. And I said, oh, really? And I was so, I thought, I don't know what what's he saying? Does he mean I've got it? Haven't I got it? Oh, so it was all sort of, you know.

• 52:21Speaker 03

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• 52:53Speaker 01

  So, we know that Evita comes along. You are extraordinary. It's breakout. It's amazing. You then go on, you give us cats, you give us chess, you give us Piaf, the greatest probably French star.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Of ever, of all, yes.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, of all. She was very petite, wasn't she?

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Tiny. She, I, when I was playing Piaf, I, I went to France, to Paris, armed with a, you know, a camera and a video camera and a map. And I walked all the way around Paris and to all the different places, the corners of the street where she would have stood and sung. And this was all part of the research that I did. And I also went to see Charles Dumont, who wrote Je ne regrette rien.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  And he granted me an interview, much to my surprise.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  A living person?

• 53:49Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. He was then, he's not now. Recently passed, unfortunately. But yes, he was very much alive then. And he invited me to his apartment because I wanted to ask, you know, about, I read a great deal about her and I watched lots of footage and so on and so forth as part of the research. But speaking to people that actually knew her, you always find out and glean more things than you would ever find out reading about somebody. And of course, he imparted lots of marvelous snippets to me. And then he said, and he knew that I was about to play her. And obviously, I'm blonde and I don't look anything Like her other than my height and I think he was found that quite um you know who's he.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Disconcerting.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Yes, well, I think he sort of thought, how are you ever going to play this woman, you know, that I knew so well and. Anyway, so he said to me, would I sing? Oh, crikey, Riley. Well, I hadn't really started to learn the the music at that point. I was just. Doing preliminary research and but I I said, yes. He said, let's, I said, shall we sing a General Greta Rian since he wrote it?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Good grief.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  And yes, yes. And so he took me to his beautiful grand piano in in his apartment. And he sat down and he started to play and I I was kind of thought, I can't quite believe this is happening. I'm standing in the apartment. Of Charles Dumont, who wrote General Greta Rian, and he is not only that, he's now accompanying me. Singing General Greta Rian and I was so nervous, I I can remember now and I've got the thing, it's a photograph of me. Hanging on to the side of the piano, my knuckles are white with fear and and I started to sing and. And I'm kind of, you know, cajoling him along. He started to sing along with me, which made it sort of much more kind of like just a piece of fun.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  And but as I kind of got into it, he he's playing away and he's looking up at me and he's smiling and nodding and. And by the end, he said to me, oh, and he gave me a big hug and gave me a rose, funnily enough.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Isn't that divine and sort of gave me his blessing along with all of that. Isn't that marvelous? And it was so exciting and frightening and all of that overwhelming all at once um to have experienced that.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  What did you learn about Edith Piaf from him? What is the essence of what he told you about her because?

• 56:14Speaker 02

  Well, from him and from um, who was the other little chap?

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Charles Aznavour.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Charles Aznavour, that's right, Charles Aznavour. I also spoke to him. He was over here to do a concert, I believe, at the Albert Hall and staying at the Savoy and. He said, well, I can only give you an interview at breakfast. Well. I just thought, oh God, breakfast, I'm not a morning person, Giles. And anyway, I got myself organised, I got off at about six, just to get myself brain in order. And off I go with all my questions to ask him about her. And um, you know, when he first came in, I could see that he was um, uh, not, I wouldn't say grumpy, but he, he probably thought, oh, I need this, like a hole in the head kind of thing. And I sort of implied that he could only give me half an hour, something like that.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Well, one o'clock lunchtime, he was still sitting there. Wow. And I had interviewed him, rather like you're doing with me now. And of course, while he spoke of her and reminisced about her and their life together, um, his face lit up and his eyes sparkled. And um, and so he, and between he and um, Charles Dumont, told me things like, for example, that, well, Charles Aznavour, he said that he would um, drive her from concert to concert. Uh, when she was, she was already famous. And uh, and he was her driver and sort of her confidant, I suppose.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  And he would, she would get him to drive with his feet on the steering wheel. She was crazy. She, she was full of fun. And uh, lived at night, really, slept during the day and lived at night. And uh, and in fact, they had a rather serious car accident. By mucking around doing this, they, they, he would drive with his feet on, on the steering wheel, his legs up on the steering wheel. And singing the Marseillaise. Very loudly. And uh, he said that whenever they went for dinner, she and the band, um, whatever she ordered, the band would have to eat the same things. They all had to eat whatever it was. But um, I got to the essence of who she was.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  And I wanted to ask him if they'd been lovers. And I didn't know whether to dare to ask. Anyway, I thought, oh, I'm going to be here once, I've got to ask him this. But he categorically said they were not. And that um, But that he, that she had given him his break. It was because of her that he became who he became. And when she passed.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Is this Aznavour?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Aznavour. When he, when she died, all her fans went to him. And so that they, they could still sort of conjure her and have her in his life, in their life through him. And um, yeah, but the, and it was, and it was interesting because in the play that Pam Gems wrote, there was a whole scene about Edith having this car accident, which is what really unfortunately um, got us into taking drugs, morphine and such like, because she was in such pain. She broke her jaw when they had this car accident with him on the wheel. Um, she broke her jaw and her teeth and had to have a, a, a plate and everything put in her jaw.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  And she was in terrible, terrible pain in hospital. And I think that's where the, the, the taking the drugs stemmed from. And of course, then she got terrible arthritis and it was awfully sad. But she, but he said, everybody thought she was a sad person and had this terrible life. And of course, she did start from very lowly beginnings and it was difficult. But um, through her fame and everything and, and her success. He says she was one of the happiest people. And the thing he remembered most about her, whenever they parted company at all. He said they would always part on a laugh, a joke and a laugh. And her laugh was what he remembered most about her.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Oh, I do want to touch on that briefly again, and then we get to the last three important questions. Because I think at the time of Piaf, you have a kind of breakdown. Is that right?

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  What is the nature, what is the nature of the breakdown? Why do you have it? And what does that mean, having a breakdown?

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  It was everything coming at me from all angles and um.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Eventually, I just, I couldn't take it anymore. And I couldn't speak or think straight, let alone play the role. And I had, you know, other actors coming in, sitting at my desk when I'm putting my makeup on, telling me their, their family problems and expecting me to be, you know, a psychotherapist. I mean, it was, it was madness.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  So what happened?

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  So what happened was, I went one, one Sunday after another eight shows of the week, I went, got down to my parents' home in Felcombe, where they lived on the south coast. And clearly, my parents noticed I was not myself. And I explained what was happening and I was in tears. I kept crying all the time. And that's one of the symptoms of a breakdown. And I explained to my mother and father what, what had been going on and the stresses and the pressure I was under. And my father said, that's it. You're not, you're not, he said, you're not, you're not going into the album, you're not going into the studio next week to finish this album. And furthermore, you're not going back to do this show. You are going to see a doctor. And they carted me off to the doctor.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  And the doctor diagnosed, um, um, emotional and, um, physical exhaustion. And he wanted to put me into hospital and put me into a coma for a week to sleep, to which I said, absolutely not. Because I thought I might not wake up. So I, I said, no way. But I, but I did. I, I was so relieved that somebody was taking charge and said to me, stop, just stop.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  So essentially, you went home to your parents.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  And bless them. And they saw it.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  And they looked after me and, and, um, and got me back to full health. And I thanked the Lord, my dear father, because he was a mild-mannered man, really. He was, they, neither of them were demonstrative in any way. But when the, when the, when the huh hit the fan, he, he, he took charge. And the same when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, the same thing. He said, okay, I want to know the doctor's name and number. I'm going to ring him up. And so he was. He was a very fair minded man and and but sensible, you know, and when when it it needed, he he stepped up to the plate and and said, okay, this is what we're gonna do and took charge and it was such a relief.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Well, we began with your dad, we're ending with your dad. My last two questions, always the saddest moment of your life and a moment of joy. So I imagine the saddest moment of your that comes to mind will be the death of your parents.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely, the worst time.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  They were together for sixty years.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  Over sixty years.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  They lived a long life.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  A long life and the, yes, a long, happy life.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Did they go simultaneously or close to each other?

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  No, my father um was, he, four years after my mother, my mother went first, we all thought it would be the other way around, but dear mum, left first and then dad. But the interesting thing was, I got to know my father, really got to know the man after the passing of my mother, because he was always allowed her to shine and her, she was very vivacious and full of fun and and great sense of humour and he always allowed her to shine and he was quite mild mannered and held back. And when she passed, he reinvented himself. He absolutely, because he he didn't do anything for himself, she looked after him, lock, stock and barrel in every way.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  So when she'd gone, he he and I said, okay, we'll get a housekeeper in and well, you know, no, no, no, no, I'm gonna do it all myself. And he he absolutely reinvented himself and I got to know the real man and it was wonderful because I had four years, oh, I'm gonna go now, I had four years of um of knowing this wonderful man. And he had and he had everything that he instilled in me really, which was resilience and perseverance and determination and all the things that he they instilled in me. Um, he, it came from it from them. And uh, yeah, so

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  Losing them was very, very difficult because they really were my best friends, really.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  A moment of joy that comes to your head, maybe from your younger years?

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  A moment of joy.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  That comes swinging into your head.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Um, well, oh.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  Um, a moment of joy would be, um. Oh, I think, you know, when I was about nine or ten. Um, my cousin Carolyn, um, was part of the Stanley Jackson North Twenty Dance Academy. And she was in the formation team and I wanted to emulate her. And so I took, um, Boreum dancing lessons and Latin lessons. And I learned the foxtrot, the waltz, the quickstep and, um, all the Boreum things and all the Latin things, the cha-cha-cha, the rumba, the whatever. And I did them all as a woman.

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  I took private lessons and I did them all as a woman and passed my ISTD, they were called, exams, um, with flying colours and I was so proud of myself of having done that. But of course, when I'd done it all, I didn't know what to do with myself because I'd done it, I'd achieved it. And so I did it all again as a man. So, because it's different, leading a woman. And so I did it all again as a man. And so I always go around now saying, yes, yes, I can dance both ways.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  So that was a moment of joy because it was, um, something that I'd seen my cousin do very well and I wanted to be like her, I wanted to be able to dance like that. And so that was a great moment of joy for me.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Also, it illustrates you doing it so thoroughly. You can do it both ways.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  I can.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  We, we won't go into that.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  We don't need to go there. Final, final question. What an extraordinary life you've led. You've had such huge success. What has life taught you? What have you learnt that you'd share with others?

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  I suppose I've learnt that, you know, if you work hard and apply yourself, um.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  You know, you can achieve things. I think, um, I think you've got to be responsible for your own happiness. Live, laugh and, and enjoy life, because if you're not doing that, then, you know, you're not living. And I, I think, you know, the best thing is not to, um, think about the past too much, because that's gone and you can't change anything. Tomorrow hasn't arrived yet, so it's best to live in the moment. I think that's what I've learned most. And I learned that in hair, really, because we were always taught then, live in the moment. And, and I've carried that with me always.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  This is what I want. Live in the moment.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  Live in the moment.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  I am so happy that you've shared these moments with us. And I'm so sorry that I wasn't, because we are the same age. I could have been in hair, standing next to you, when quite innocently, your hand went out.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  You're so bad.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  That would have been my moment of joy. I've loved living in these moments with you. Elaine Paige, thank you so much.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, Giles. What fun.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  We can now both burst into tears.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Well, as you could tell, I'm rather in love with Elaine Paige, and have been for years. She's a lovely person, fascinating too, and funny and brilliant. I mean, brilliant on stage, brilliant on the radio, brilliant too, on her new album. I've only just begun listening to it. Tonight, I shall be getting all of it. I'm going to binge on Page. It's called Miscellaneous Paige. It's a musical memoir. I hope you've enjoyed listening to her oral memoir here on Rosebud. If you want to watch her, it's quite interesting. I think, I, I both listened to Rosebud and I watch it now, because our recent interviews have all been on YouTube. So go to YouTube, find the Rosebud Podcast, and there we are, with

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  other theatrical dames, Dame Arlene Atkins, Dame Charlotte Phillips, quite a few of them, and The Odd Theatrical Night as well. I think Sedelic Jacoby is there. Oh, if you want to write to us, people do, our address is quite simply, [email protected].

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  And who has been writing this week? Oh, Denise White has sent us an email. It simply says, ah, yeah. It's from Denise White, Nae Hans. That may be relevant to the email, let's see. Hello Giles and Harriet. So it's addressed to me, the presenter, and Harriet, the producer. I just wanted to drop you a line to say how much I'm enjoying Rosebud. Oh, thank you. What comes through so many of the interviews is how much a happy and loving childhood contributes to a secure life. Yeah, as we often say, don't we? A childhood lasts a lifetime. I had a wonderful best friend at secondary school, Waynefleet School in Esha. Her name was Lucy Hancock and her father was the actor Christopher Hancock.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Many people will remember him in later years, playing Dot Cotton's husband, Charlie, in EastEnders. I loved her family and the atmosphere around them. I remember going to see him playing the undertaker, Mr. Shadrack, in Billy Laire, with Michael Crawford as Billy. Wonderful. Well, I, I think that's a show that Elaine Paige was in. Amazing. I loved those days. Sadly, I lost touch with Lucy when we went in different directions and I've never managed to track her down. I hope she's well and happy. I do hope your podcast goes on for many years to come, Giles. Lots of love, Denise White. Well, Denise, I hope it goes on for many years to come too.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  And more important than that, I hope that Lucy Hancock gets in touch with us at Rosebud. It's simply [email protected]. And if you remember, if Lucy, you remember Denise White, she was Denise Hans, H A N C E, and want to get in touch, well, we can put the two of you together again, which will be fun. The phrase, if I may say so, that I loved most in your letter was this, I loved her family and the atmosphere around them. That makes all the difference. You know, you can go into some houses and there is either no atmosphere or an atmosphere

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  that's cold or odd or unwelcoming. The individuals may be fine, but...

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  And then you go to another house and there's an atmosphere that's welcoming, that's warm, that's a shared atmosphere. Anyway, I think I know what you mean by the atmosphere around them. I love a family that has that kind of atmosphere around it. If you want to share any of your recollections of your childhood, happy or unhappy, your first memories, you know where to get in touch with us. It's hello at rosebudpodcast.com. I am Gyles Brandreth, our producer is Harriet Jane. If you want to see us in person, we're going to be in the capital city of Scotland, that's Edinburgh, from the 5th of August till the end of August with a show on the Edinburgh Fringe. It's called Up Memory Lane. We have

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  fun. We do a bit of singing, a bit of dancing, a lot of talking, quite a bit of name dropping from me. I hope you will come and see us. If you want to, simply go to our website, that'll direct you to where you need to buy tickets. Our website is simply www.rosebudpodcast.co.uk and you'll find the way to get tickets for us. We're at the Assembly, George Square, at the Gordon Aitman Theatre from the 5th of August till the end of the month, every day at four o'clock. And we're saying hello to Rosebud friends and family immediately after every show, sort of five o'clockish, every day throughout August. So that's all there is to say from me, except

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  thank you very much, Elaine, for being with us. And my thanks, as always, to my friend and producer, Harriet Jane. But a special thanks to today, to Alec Caddell, who is actually the son of my oldest friend, Simon Caddell, and his mother, Becky, is a friend and a colleague, she actually works for the team as well. And he, Alec, is my wife Michelle's godson. So we really do keep it in the family here. And he is the person who edits the shows for YouTube. So do catch us on YouTube as well. I think it's a slightly different experience, watching the podcast, as well as listening to it. So see if you see the subtle difference. ...between the two.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  It's actually exactly the same material. But someone seeing a person changes the dynamic a little bit. And if you enjoyed the show, do leave a comment, okay? Only leave a comment if you enjoyed it. We don't, we don't believe in negativity around our place. We just want positive vibes. Anyway, I feel very positive after spending an hour with Dame Elaine Paige. It's nice when somebody gets a DBE and really deserves it because she's brilliant. Okay, and you've been brilliant listening until you're with us next time. This is me saying goodbye and thank you for being part of Rosebud. Because without you, we're nothing. Cue the music.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

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