Pod Insights Revisionist History Why Would I Do That to Jennifer Lopez? | The Mistakes Series About this episode Years ago a music producer named Irv Gotti–a hitmaker for Jay-Z, Ja Rule, and Ashanti–was tapped by Sony Music to make a record with Jennifer Lopez. They wanted a big hit. And Irv delivered. But then he made the biggest mistake of his career.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:28 Malcolm Gladwell? This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on, and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet,
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2:03 Malcolm Gladwell? Pushkin.
2:08 Speaker 02 This guy calls me like seven in the morning. I'm like, Tommy, what's up?
2:14 Malcolm Gladwell? In 2001, the head of Sony Music, Tommy Mottola, called the rap producer Irv Gotti. At the time, Gotti worked with Jay-Z, Ja Rule, Ashanti, DMX. In the hip-hop world of the early aughts, he was at the top of his game.
2:29 Speaker 02 He's like, yo, I need you to make a record. And I said, what? He said, make a record with J-Lo and put Ja on it and make it a duet. And I say, yo,
2:40 Speaker 02 I need total creative autonomy. I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Tommy was like, you could do whatever the fuck you want, as long as it's a duet with Ja Rule and J-Lo.
2:51 Malcolm Gladwell? Mottola wanted Gotti to do a remix of "I'm Real", a single off J-Lo's second album. The first time around, it had been a generic ballad. Mottola thought it could be reinvigorated. Gotti went to work and started to make a demo with Ja Rule and Ashanti.
3:07 Speaker 02 I said, yo, I got the record, "I'm Real". Him and his wife, Talia, come to the crack house, my studio and so on. And it's funny because the freight elevator used to always go out. So him and Talia walked up six flights of stairs. He gets upstairs, he said, this fucking record better be fucking good. So I play, I play "Real" for him, him and his wife go crazy. They're like, oh, my God, it was a one listen. They listened and they was like, it's the biggest record. So he puts me on a private jet. I fly to LA, record the record with J-Lo. Next thing you know, the record comes out, it's all over the radio. I'm talking about
3:49 Speaker 02 maybe a couple of days after we recorded it, it's all over the radio.
4:05 Malcolm Gladwell? A few months later, Gotti made another remix from J Lo's album, Ain't It Funny? The same thing happened.
4:13 Speaker 02 You don't even understand, those records was colossal, not just in the States, on the planet Earth. I don't give a fuck if you went to Germany, Australia, Africa, that shit was in heavy rotation. Look, those was the two biggest records. And for me to do I'm Real and then said, fuck it, and did Ain't It Funny? It was like, at that point in my life, I was like on top of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility. It was a feeling of I could do whatever the fuck I want.
4:45 Speaker 02 To portray who I was at that moment, that's who I was. I'm from the hood, I'm making all of this money. I'm producing records for everybody. All of them are working and going number one. And money's raining from the sky. I could do no wrong.
5:02 Malcolm Gladwell? It was at this point that Irv Gotti made a mistake.
5:08 Malcolm Gladwell? My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood.
5:16 Malcolm Gladwell? This is the third episode in our mini-series inspired by Michael Linton and Josh Steiner's book, From Mistakes to Meaning, where the authors sit down with a wide range of people and try to make sense of their biggest screw-ups. One of their interviews was with Irv Gotti, just before Gotti had a stroke and died at the age of 54. I listened to the interview and I found his story so moving that I asked Steiner and Linton if I could include it in this series. Because in his story, I think, is a really important lesson. Not about the person who makes the mistake, but about the people around the person who makes the mistake. The witnesses.
6:01 Speaker 02 Man, I grew up, oh man, I grew up, let me, let me describe how I grew up. I'm the youngest of eight kids.
6:08 Malcolm Gladwell? This is Gotti talking to Linton and Steiner about his childhood and growing up in Queens.
6:13 Speaker 02 We have no money.
6:16 Speaker 02 We live in a home, I, I sleep in the attic. You ever slept in the attic of a house? In the summertime, there's no refuge. It's a hundred and change. You, you wake up every, every day, you wake up in a puddle of sweat.
6:33 Speaker 02 Like I, that was my life, that's, it was a lot of love. My family, the most loving family, but we had nothing. So when you talk about
6:46 Speaker 02 the shit you told me, I'm not, I don't give a fuck, yo. I'm getting money, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna work my ass off and get it. I don't give a fuck what comes from it.
6:59 Malcolm Gladwell? He was blunt, reckless, ambitious, and hugely talented. His rise in the music world was swift. It was no accident that Batola called Gotti to work with Jennifer Lopez, then well on her way to becoming one of the biggest celebrities in America. And when the two of them met at Gotti's recording studio, Gotti from Queens, J Lo from the Bronx, they clicked.
7:23 Malcolm Gladwell? Just so you know what to expect, we're giving you the unfiltered Gotti.
7:29 Speaker 02 So I had like thirty hood niggas in the studio and in walks J Lo. And she was straight Jenny from the block. She had on some sweatpants and a tank top. And if I tell you, she got in that studio and she had every one of my guys fall in love with her. She worked and talked to everybody and I was just like, yo, she's just so dope. You know what I'm saying? Cause she could have been on some, I'm a big star bougie shit, but she was the total opposite.
8:05 Speaker 02 The biggest sex symbol, biggest superstar, got on some sweatpants, her ass was looking fucking phenomenal. She worked, she literally worked the whole room. Like, when she left, every guy was like, "Yo, she dope. I think she liked me." I'm like, "Yo, dog, she's, she worked us, yo." She, she worked the fucking room. But I thought it was so dope of her. And me and her, specifically, yo, we hit it off. Benny Medina, her manager? Benny Medina was like, "Irv, you're gonna be like the Quincy Jones to her Michael Jackson."
8:47 Speaker 02 He was like, "We're not doing nothing musically unless you're involved."
8:54 Malcolm Gladwell? A year later, Elle magazine decided to do a cover story on Jennifer Lopez. It was for their sex and body issue. June 2002, headlined "Big Letters: J Lo on Fashion, That Song, and Puffy." Puffy referred to Puffy Combs, the infamous rap impresario who she'd just broken up with. And "That Song" referred to "Ain't It Funny", because Gotti's reinterpretation of the song turned it into the story of someone coming out of a very problematic relationship. The writer asks her, "Is that song about Puffy?" She says, "No, it's not." Then the reporter calls Gotti. "J Lo says 'Ain't It Funny' isn't about Puffy. What do you say?"
9:39 Malcolm Gladwell? And Gotti says, "Oh, it's absolutely about Puffy." And J Lo knows it. Here's the exact quote from the Elle magazine article, which, by the way, is nearly impossible to find now. "My producer had to get someone at the New York Public Library to unearth the issue from an offsite storage unit. I ain't gonna lie, we was thinking of effing with Puffy, 'cause that's what the world wants to hear."
10:06 Malcolm Gladwell? And Gotti tells the reporter a story about running into Puffy before Ain't It Funny came out, and playing him the demo. He says, "You know the Four Seasons on Dohany in LA? I pull up and Puff's out there with his security, and I say, 'Puff, come listen to the new record I did with your old bitch.'" So boom, he gets in the car. So I'm blasting the record, and when it gets to the second verse, he jumps out of the car screaming, "Gotti, you bastard!" This is the second verse. Listen.
10:48 Malcolm Gladwell? He calls J-Lo's ex-boyfriend into his car and says, "Come listen to the new record I just did with your old bitch." In a very public way, Gotti was essentially saying Jennifer Lopez wasn't being honest. He called her credibility into question.
11:06 Speaker 02 When I read it in Elle magazine, J-Lo, quote, "Those records are not about Puff Daddy", end quote. It was... It's the worst mistake I've ever made in my life. Because I say that to say, because J-Lo, Benny Medina, they was friends. They loved me. They loved me. Like I was a rider for them, and I would do things for them that probably no one else could do, and I would get done for them. And she was my friend. Like, why the fuck would I say that? Why the fuck would I say that?
11:52 Malcolm Gladwell? But Gotti didn't stop there. He kept going.
11:55 Speaker 02 Right? So I went on to say other damaging things, like, "How would she know? She didn't write the records. We made the records and wrote the records. She just did what we said." So she don't know who the fuck we was talking about. And yeah, we was talking about Diddy.
12:16 Speaker 02 And, uh...
12:19 Speaker 02 Then I said some more damaging shit. I was like, guys like me, we didn't listen to J- we don't listen to J Lo's music. I made guys like me listen to J Lo's music. I said, before then, we just hit the mute button and looked at our ass. Yeah.
12:35 Malcolm Gladwell? Gotti reflected on this with Michael Linton and Josh Steiner when they spoke.
12:39 Speaker 02 Wow. You can pull all this up in the Elle magazine. It's, it's, it's, it's there. Those are vivid quotes. Those are, those are like supreme asshole quotes that wasn't warranted. And when I look back, I was like, what did you do to your friend?
12:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:01 Speaker 02 So needless to say, needless to say, it ruined my, my relationship with J Lo.
13:09 Speaker 02 I apologized. I sent her candy and flowers and apologized a million times. And I, you know, I was high. That's no excuse. You know what I'm saying? I apologized, bars. And she accepted my apology, but it, it forever damaged our relationship. Right. You know, superstars like J Lo, they have a small circle of people who they could trust. And I think I was in there for a second. Yeah. And I totally ruined it.
13:42 Speaker 02 Right. So I'm an asshole.
13:46 Speaker 02 Well, you were in that moment. I'm totally in the wrong and I'm a complete idiot. Make sure you say that, that I said that I'm a complete idiot. She didn't warrant that. She didn't warrant nothing that I said. She was my friend. And why would I do that with the biggest star and most beautiful person? Why would I do that with J Lo?
14:22 Speaker 00 This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.
14:59 Malcolm Gladwell? This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over-the-limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time
15:44 Malcolm Gladwell? without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com.
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17:38 Malcolm Gladwell? One of the themes we've tried to explore in this series is that mistakes have roots. They aren't random events. They come from somewhere. They arise out of a context, but the context often isn't obvious, not to those around the mistake maker and often not even to the mistake maker themselves. In Gotti's case, the context was a telephone call he'd been on just before the reporter called. It was with a prominent music industry executive. Gotti asked that the man's name not be used, so we're going to bleep out every mention of his name. All you need to know is that the executive is white and Gotti was black. The two of them had an argument. One of Gotti's artists had played a part in a hit song and was in the music video,
18:23 Malcolm Gladwell? but had been left out of the radio version, and Gotti was unhappy about it.
18:27 Speaker 02 So... I was like, yo, you killing my artist. You got him on the video, but on radio, he's not there. It's sending like mixed signals. Why are you hurting me?
18:40 Malcolm Gladwell? Their argument got heated. The executive said it wasn't his fault. The decision was someone else's at his label, a black man.
18:48 Speaker 02 He was like, I told that fat nigga not to, not to put this out. But when he said the N word, oh, that's when I, I went crazy.
19:00 Malcolm Gladwell? Wow.
19:00 Speaker 02 I said, what the fuck you say? I said, you just called Corey Rooney a nigga? I said, when this, when this nigga see you, I'm gonna fuck you up. I said, how about that? And he was like, I have an N. And we arguing.
19:16 Malcolm Gladwell? Yeah.
19:16 Speaker 02 But he said, he's, he used the N word on some racist shit. He said, I told that fat nigga not to put the record out or put him on him.
19:25 Malcolm Gladwell? Yeah.
19:25 Speaker 02 But when he said nigga, I went, that's, that's, that's the anger.
19:32 Malcolm Gladwell? Yep.
19:33 Speaker 02 I'm not a volatile person. I'm not a pop off. I, I would describe myself as a cool guy, level headed. But it's something about when a white person like uses the word nigga to me.
19:50 Malcolm Gladwell? Mm hmm.
19:51 Speaker 02 Oh, I'm ready to kill. Because it's like, you start thinking of all of the fucked up shit that black people been through. And you got the audacity to say nigga in front of me? Oh, I'm gonna show you a nigga now. You know what I'm saying? Like I used to always say, like, when people would ask me, how, how would you be able? How did, how would you think you would be able to operate in those kinds of racism? And I always answer, I would die. You know what I'm saying?
20:25 Malcolm Gladwell? Yeah.
20:27 Speaker 02 I couldn't take the racism that would have been bestowed upon me. I would have killed me a couple of white people and they would have hung me and killed me. And my life would be over. I couldn't take them doing something to my mother or, you know, hanging my father. And I'm living life. Nah, you gonna have to kill me too. So.
20:50 Speaker 02 These are the thoughts that's in my mind.
20:52 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:53 Speaker 04 Have you experienced that before where you had white people say things which you
20:57 Speaker 02 Now, a lot of my white friends just say, yo, that's my nigga, but I'm not mad at that.
21:02 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:04 Speaker 02 Use it. When they say that's my nigga, it's N I G G A. He said, yo, I told that fat nigga, that's N I G G E R. It's a big, big difference. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't believe that he just used the N word to me. That's what made me so volatile. And it was so weird. It was like, as soon as I hung up with, the phone rang without.
21:32 Speaker 02 It wasn't like a five minute, it wasn't even like a five minute cool off period. No. Hung up, yo, this is Elle magazine.
21:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, what the fuck y'all want?
21:47 Speaker 04 Kind of like saying hello, a little different.
21:51 Speaker 03 Can I ask, so what do you think it was that made you, you think you were just gonna lash out at anybody who showed up in that moment?
21:59 Speaker 02 Uh, yeah, within that five minutes, yeah. It was gonna get the exact same vibe. What the fuck you want?
22:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
22:09 Speaker 02 It just so happened it was Elle magazine, not one of my boys.
22:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, so I said, what the fuck you want? And he was like, oh, uh, uh, I see. Like, as soon as he heard that response, he immediately cut to the chase. He said, oh, I'll just get right to it. Uh, you know, J Lo said that the records, I'm real and ain't it funny, are not about Puff Daddy, her ex-boyfriend.
22:43 Speaker 02 And I was like, what? That bitch is lying.
22:49 Malcolm Gladwell? This was Irv Gotti's mistake. It changed his life. There was a version of the next 20 years where he could have been a creative partner with one of the biggest stars in the world. He had ideas for movies, collaborations. J Lo was a once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why this was a mistake. It had consequences. But there was a point in Gotti's interview with Steiner and Linton that I couldn't get out of my mind. Listen.
23:17 Speaker 04 How quickly did you realize that you'd made a mistake?
23:21 Speaker 02 I didn't realize quickly.
23:24 Speaker 02 I was so angry and mad when I got off the phone with Elle Magazine. I thought nothing of it.
23:31 Speaker 02 It hit me when they sent me like the transcripts of what they was gonna print.
23:38 Speaker 04 How long after that was that?
23:41 Speaker 02 A couple, a week or so, I would say.
23:44 Speaker 04 Right. And when you did that, did you realize it right away?
23:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, I was like, don't print that. If they was like, it's too, but they was like, it's too late.
23:55 Speaker 04 Yeah.
23:56 Speaker 02 They loved it. They loved it.
23:59 Speaker 02 And they said it was too late. And I was trying to get them not to print it, but they wasn't, they was like, hey buddy, you said it.
24:08 Speaker 04 Yeah. Did you get me, try to, did you get me help to try to get them not to do it? Or did you just let it go?
24:14 Speaker 02 I let it go. I gave it my effort, but after my effort, I just let it go.
24:21 Malcolm Gladwell? He realized he'd made a mistake, that in his anger at one person, he had said something he didn't mean to another. And when he tried to prevent his mistake from having consequences, from turning into a serious mistake, he was told, hey buddy, you said it. It's too late. After Linton and Steiner's book came out, I interviewed them onstage at the 92nd Street Y in New York. And I brought up their chapter on Gotti. So, who's the villain of the story?
24:51 Speaker 04 Not every story has to have a villain.
24:53 Speaker 03 No, but tell me who the villain of the story is.
24:56 Speaker 04 So don't, Michael, don't fall for this. Like, this is okay. This is why he's so good.
25:00 Speaker 03 Well.
25:01 Speaker 04 But don't fall for his trap. Like, okay, you can say not every.
25:04 Speaker 03 Well, I gotta keep the conversation going. I would argue it was the executive who used the N-word. Josh, who's the villain of the story?
25:11 Speaker 04 Here's what I think. That guy acted terribly. There is no villain in the story. And I think
25:16 Speaker 04 an important piece of what we tried to describe is that there isn't always a villain. There isn't always some outside danger. There isn't always some consequence that has been derived from a villain. That these things are deep rooted in ourselves. And we're not villainous. And so that aspect of our personality doesn't make us bad. This isn't a morality test. This is an opportunity to explore oneself and come to terms and acceptance of the fact that we're flawed and the way to get, hopefully, healthier and better is to talk about it.
25:48 Speaker 03 Who do you think the villain is?
25:50 Malcolm Gladwell? A man who has a very close relationship to the biggest rock star in the world.
25:55 Malcolm Gladwell? A relationship that has resulted in extraordinary commercial success. Is called by a reporter and is asked a question about that relationship. And in the course of answering that question, the man says, oh, she's a liar. Who's the villain in the story?
26:09 Speaker 03 You think it's Irv?
26:11 Speaker 03 No?
26:12 Malcolm Gladwell? It's the reporter.
26:13 Speaker 03 But the reporter doesn't.
26:14 Malcolm Gladwell? No, no, no, no. This is a crucial, crucial point, Michael.
26:19 Speaker 03 Okay.
26:19 Malcolm Gladwell? And I think this is because it's about when mistakes are made. And they are as deeply rooted as you suggest they are. They're not, what's your, the whole argument of the book is a mistake can come out in the spur of the moment, but it, it's not something that's coming out in the spur of the moment. It's something that has roots.
26:38 Speaker 03 Right.
26:39 Malcolm Gladwell? And what does that require of those who observe and are part of the process in which the mistake is played out? It requires some degree of grace and forgiveness and understanding.
26:51 Speaker 03 Yep.
26:52 Malcolm Gladwell? So the reporter hears some, Irv Gotti, Irv Gotti say something that is completely out of place. Right? It makes, the reason, the reason that story, so that story you put. But what is an important detail is here is it goes, it's all across the country. It's like, it's huge. That's why it blows up so much. Everyone seizes on this. Her longtime collaborator called J Lo a liar, right? If you are the reporter in that instance, and someone says something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, wait, why did you say that? And if they can't give you a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it. I'm sorry, it's not to use it.
27:33 Malcolm Gladwell? You're not, you shouldn't, you can't make someone, the reporter turned that from a nothing into a destruction of someone's career because they had not the slightest concern for his well-being or his reputation. And if they had an ounce of self-understanding or of general understanding, they would have understood that he didn't mean to say that. They should at the very least have said, did you mean to say that? Right? That's your responsibility. And the reporter failed in that fundamental. Why do people hate the press? Because in an interview like this, where we could talk for three hours and you say one thing out of place because you happen to be irritated about something else and the reporter runs with that one thing? That's malpractice.
28:17 Malcolm Gladwell? Why is this person getting a pass? That's terrible. I'm sorry, I'm really upset about this. I was upset about this. Because you can't do this if you're a journalist. The whole profession works on an implied contract. Somebody grants you the gift of their time and attention and thoughts. They make themselves vulnerable. And in return, you pledge to respect that vulnerability. You're not a stenographer. You've entered for the duration of the interview into an intimate relationship. And intimate relationships have rules.
28:51 Malcolm Gladwell? But then I went home after that interview at the Y, after I had called the reporter a villain and a disgrace to our profession. And I realized, I don't even know who this person is. And then I thought to myself, oops. Now I've made a mistake. So I decided to track the reporter down. That's after the break.
29:24 Speaker 00 This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.
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32:31 Speaker 04 It's funny you're asking this, something that no one's ever asked me, because I remember that interview quite well for a few reasons.
32:42 Malcolm Gladwell? This is Carter Harris. He wrote the L profile. He's now a screenwriter, teaches at NYU. And one of the reasons this article he wrote 25 years ago sticks out is the reaction it got, particularly from J-Lo and her manager Benny Medina.
32:58 Speaker 04 I actually remember being in a car with Benny Medina in Los Angeles, and I can't remember why we were in a car, but...
33:06 Speaker 04 He was telling me how disappointed J Lo was and he was because it seemed like a negative interview. I wasn't negative at all, from my perspective.
33:15 Malcolm Gladwell? At some point, his profile of J Lo completely disappeared from the internet. And he always wondered if J Lo and her manager had something to do with it. Was Gotti upset during the call? Yes, he was, Harris remembers. He seemed like he was in a state. He mentioned something about having just gotten off the phone with someone. He thought Harris was a fashion writer. And Gotti seemed relieved to learn that Harris had been an editor at The Source, the magazine that was the bible of rap at the time. They talked about Puffy Combs, and I'm real, I ain't it funny. And then Gotti said that bit about J Lo not telling the truth. When you heard it, when you were interviewing him, and decided to use what you were using,
33:58 Malcolm Gladwell? did you think that you might be jeopardizing his relationship with J Lo?
34:05 Speaker 04 No.
34:07 Speaker 04 And maybe that was naive of me. But what I thought was, in the moment, was wow. That was honest. She might be a little bit
34:19 Speaker 04 irked, vexed by one or two of the quotes. But I never imagined that it would be such a big deal for her or for him. I mean, I thought she'd be vexed. I mean, when you say, you know, I gave her more hood credibility, that's gonna be like, come on, dude. Or when you say, it was really about Diddy. And basically, you're accusing her of not being honest, you know? Yeah, I totally understand why she was vexed. And even at the time, I was like, oh, she might be a little ticked off about this. But I figured they'd air it out, either publicly or privately,
35:04 Speaker 04 that she'd be like, come on, he overstepped on this one. And then maybe he comes back and says, yeah, all right, I was on Molly, which he was willing to say back then.
35:11 Malcolm Gladwell? Is it weird to hear someone say, 25 years later, that the biggest mistake they made in their life was something they said to you in an interview?
35:21 Speaker 04 Absolutely.
35:24 Speaker 04 That made me feel very strange. When I heard that, I was
35:32 Speaker 04 I was very surprised and very... I was a little disturbed too because I... When I heard that, then I did have feelings. Then I was like, "Oh shit, what did I do wrong?" You know, it was like, was I responsible for this somehow?
35:46 Malcolm Gladwell? Did he run the quotes by Gotti and tell him that it was too late? You said it? No, that would have been the fact checker. That's the way things worked in the magazine world of those years.
35:56 Speaker 04 If he had called me and said, "I was in a state. Can you take those quotes out?" Yeah, I probably would have worked with him on that. But I never got that call. Nobody ever asked me about those quotes. So, you know, what can I really do? But yeah, I certainly felt weird about it. I mean, you know, I don't take any joy in being, you know, a part of anyone's biggest regret.
36:26 Malcolm Gladwell? Carter was frank and thoughtful. I liked him.
36:31 Malcolm Gladwell? He was talking about a decision he made many years ago, when he was much younger. And he said that he wouldn't necessarily do the same thing today. I understand that. You have to make a certain number of mistakes to understand what a mistake is.
36:46 Speaker 04 It's really interesting because if I had been in the gym and somebody had told me this story and I was not the reporter and I was not Gotti, I probably would have had the exact same response. I'm pretty sure I would have been like, "What? They said what? They messed with Gotti? Like, and they screwed up a relationship with J-Lo and Gotti? You know, this is bullshit. This is like the media, you know? They do this, especially Elle and these corporate magazines and, you know, all that. So I'm not surprised to hear that that was your response. That probably would have been my response.
37:27 Speaker 04 But to the larger point, I think we all do this in our own way, in lots of different contexts. We jump to conclusions, mistaken conclusions. And I certainly do in my life. And if I've learned anything, it's that I have to check myself sometimes and say, wait a minute, I'm human like everybody else. I'm jumping to a conclusion. I should go look and see if there's more to this story. Doesn't necessarily mean my conclusion that I wanted to jump to is wrong. Could be right. Could be worse than I thought it was. But I do think that that's the thing to take from this is like, hey, everybody,
38:11 Speaker 04 each of us can check ourselves, you know, we all have the ability to check ourselves and say, hey, maybe I should look into this a little bit more.
38:21 Malcolm Gladwell? We can all check ourselves a little bit more. On that, I have to agree.
38:30 Malcolm Gladwell? Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadaf Hafry. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Fact checking by Angel Lee Mercado. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Marcelo Di Alavera. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.
39:00 Malcolm Gladwell? Coming up on the next episode in our mistakes series.
39:04 Speaker 05 This is madness. And yeah, and it was just jaw on the floor. I just never experienced anything like that. And I didn't see it coming.
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Previous A Tragedy in Texas | The Mistakes Series Next The Worst Poet in the World | From Cautionary Tales Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated