Pod Insights Revisionist History A Tragedy in Texas | The Mistakes Series About this episode General David Goldfein, former Chief of Staff of the US Air Force, and Dr. Heather Wilson, former Secretary of the Air Force, tell the story of the worst day in their professional careers and what it taught them about leadership.
You can find their book, Get Back up: Lessons in Servant Leadership https://books.apple.com/us/audiobook/get-back-up-lessons-in-servant-leadership-unabridged/id1844712173, here.
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Transcript 5,989 words · 14 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:28 Malcolm Gladwell? This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on, and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet,
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2:03 Malcolm Gladwell? Bushkin.
2:07 Malcolm Gladwell? Many years ago, I was on the board of a think tank called the Rand Corporation out in Los Angeles. It was one of the coolest things I've ever done.
2:17 Malcolm Gladwell? Rand does all kinds of work on healthcare and energy and the environment, and most of all, they consult with the Air Force, which meant from time to time, various Air Force dignitaries would come and brief us. And there were two I've never forgotten. The first was a four-star general named David Goldfein. From 2016 to 2020, he was Chief of Staff, the highest military post in the Air Force. Here's a Dave Goldfein story that sums him up. I was once in an elevator with him at some conference, and we were all locked in conversation with the conference host. And there was a man in the corner of the elevator who clearly worked for the hotel, older guy, in a maintenance uniform, who, I'm ashamed to say, we all treated like he was invisible.
3:03 Malcolm Gladwell? Except for General Goldfein, who stopped the conversation, reached over, shook the man's hand. "Hi, I'm Dave Goldfein. How was your day?" In my experience, most powerful people do not notice the anonymous maintenance guy in the corner.
3:20 Malcolm Gladwell? Second memorable person who came to Rand when I was there, the Secretary of the Air Force, Heather Wilson, the political appointee who runs the service along with the Chief of Staff. I met Heather Wilson almost 10 years ago now, and my friends will back me up on this: I have not stopped talking about her. In my perfect universe, Heather Wilson would run for president. I don't care which party. It doesn't matter. And if she did, not only would she win easily, but she would restore everything about that office that has been damaged over the past generation.
3:56 Malcolm Gladwell? When we decided to look at some consequential mistakes people have made for this mini-series, I remembered something that happened back when Wilson and Goldfein were running the Air Force, a tragedy that unfolded in Texas, and a story about the mistake at the center of it, or more accurately, a story about how to respond to a mistake. And I wanted to share it with you.
4:21 Malcolm Gladwell? My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is my conversation with Dr. Heather Wilson and General Dave Goldfein.
4:37 Malcolm Gladwell? Before we go on, am I remembering correctly, you were in the same Air Force Academy class?
4:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, we started at the Air Force Academy on the same day, in the class of 1982. And we didn't know each other really well as cadets, and our careers crossed paths several times after graduating from the academy, but we came back together at the end of our federal careers as Service Secretary-in-Chief. So in some ways, our values were formed at the same institution at the same time.
5:10 Malcolm Gladwell? Yeah.
5:10 Speaker 03 Now, I will add that one of us graduated in four years, became a Rhodes Scholar, Congresswoman, started her own company, became university president and secretary, and one of us didn't.
5:26 Speaker 02 One of us did something useful, Dave.
5:29 Malcolm Gladwell? How far down in the graduating class were you, Dave? I've forgotten.
5:33 Speaker 03 Well, I will tell you that I was part of the group that made the top half possible.
5:39 Malcolm Gladwell? But you said something just then. I keep calling you Dave. I should call you General Goldfein.
5:44 Speaker 03 No, please call me Dave.
5:46 Malcolm Gladwell? Okay. So I just want to, why don't you guys just, I don't know which one of you wants to start. Tell me how this all, when this began, how it began, how you found out about it. Go from there.
5:57 Speaker 02 It was one of the worst days, still probably the worst day in my professional life. So it was a Sunday in November 2017. I was in the upstairs of my row house in Virginia. I got a call from the Inspector General.
6:16 Speaker 02 He said, "I don't know if you're watching TV, but there's been something terrible that's happened in Sutherland Springs, Texas."
6:22 Speaker 04 Overnight, the quiet town of Sutherland Springs, Texas, trying to come to grips with the nation's latest horrific mass shooting. More than two dozen people were killed during Sunday services at this small Baptist church. The victims ranging in age from five to 72 years old. We also learned a short time ago that between 12 and 14 of the dead are children.
6:46 Speaker 02 And I, of course, immediately went on and found out what was going on.
6:52 Speaker 02 Someone walked into a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, and opened fire and killed, I think it was 26 people in the end. It was just awful.
7:03 Speaker 04 We are told now that the parents of the shooter's ex-wife worshipped here. They were not at church yesterday.
7:12 Speaker 02 The inspector general, General Sam Said, said, "We're not sure, but we think he was an airmen." And even more than that,
7:22 Speaker 02 he may have been dishonorably discharged for a violent offense while on active duty. And we might have failed to inform the FBI, which would have, if there was a way to put somebody on a list so they can't buy a weapon.
7:40 Speaker 02 And so Dave and I talked that Sunday afternoon. We agreed we would meet at 9 o'clock in the morning in our conference room and find out the facts. And then, and take it from there. But it was awful. It was just awful.
7:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, so, you know, as it all came together, the most important thing for us was to sort of get as many facts as we could that we, when we gathered the people on Monday to get everybody together.
8:10 Speaker 02 And it was, so when we got together at 9 o'clock in the morning, the inspector general, General Said, confirmed that, yes, he was an airmen. Yes, he had been convicted of a violent offense while on active duty. And that the service had failed to inform the FBI and put him on the list so he couldn't buy a weapon.
8:32 Speaker 02 And then you think it, you know, you think at that point it can't get worse, but it did.
8:36 Malcolm Gladwell? Yeah.
8:37 Speaker 02 Because the next thing we found out in that meeting was that the Defense Department Inspector General had done a review three years earlier of whether all of the services were appropriately notifying the FBI and putting people on the, you know, can't buy a weapon list and, and said there were problems. So, so we had been told that the system didn't work. There was an audit finding and we didn't fix it. So it was, it was not a good day.
9:13 Malcolm Gladwell? So you have, we have a case of somebody who is dishonorably discharged for a violent offense. And what's the internal mechanism in which the way that case is dealt with within the Air Force?
9:29 Speaker 02 When, when, when systems screw up, when, um, when things fail, it's usually not because of somebody intended to make a mistake. It's because, you know, the person who did that job moved on, or nobody wrote down the procedures, or people weren't adequately trained. And the way it was supposed to work in the service is that felony offenses, unlike minor offenses, felony offenses are handled by the Office of Special Investigations and a military prosecutor. Once there is a conviction, it should have been reported on a system by that Office of Special Investigations to the FBI, and then it is closed out and,
10:11 Speaker 02 you know, put on file. That didn't happen. And so it was a combination of systems and processes and training and, um, and it, it wasn't done right. And, and we were told that in advance, when the DOD Inspector General did an audit of all of the, all of the services, and in fact, the Air Force had been doing it, doing better on it than the other services, but that didn't matter. We still knew we had a problem and we'd failed to fix it.
10:47 Malcolm Gladwell? We'll be right back with more of my conversation with General Goldfein and Dr. Wilson.
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11:42 Malcolm Gladwell? This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time
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13:50 Malcolm Gladwell? After you get that call, Dr. Wilson, who do you call? Who's your first call? Is it Dave?
13:58 Speaker 02 My first call usually was to Dave. Now, we also talked to the general counsel and so forth. He was actually out of town, as I remember on that day. But one of the things, and this is one of the things about our relationship as Service Secretary in Chief. The chief has an obligation to give his best military advice to the civilians appointed to run the department. As a secretary, there's nothing that says that you have an obligation to ask for it. But I generally did a much better job when I asked for it because Dave Goldfein may be a much better secretary.
14:32 Malcolm Gladwell? You said you were, you guys were shaped by the same values. And I, this is a really important part, and I want you to talk a little, before we go on, I want you to talk about it. What do you mean by that?
14:43 Speaker 03 So each service has a set of core values that are infused into every member of the institution, normally during basic training, and then reinforced throughout their time in service. And so you could go to each service and find those core values. For us, it's integrity, service, and excellence. And so, you know, integrity first is how we're taught to approach all things. So, you know, in terms of how we approach this, it started off with ownership because we needed to ensure that we were true to the values of the institution and that we were representing the institution correctly as its leaders.
15:24 Speaker 03 And so integrity first, service before self, meaning that we, you know, we look at this opportunity to lead as a gift that's offered by those we're privileged to serve. And each day we ask the question, are we worthy of that trust and confidence, not only of the airmen that we were privileged to lead, but also the American people that entrusted us with their sons and daughters. And so those core values drive, you know, how we choose to handle things throughout our careers.
15:55 Speaker 02 I would say on the integrity first part, um, once on that Monday morning, we knew the truth. We knew that he had been an airmen. We knew that he had been convicted of a violent crime. And we knew that we should have reported that to the FBI and we didn't. Those were facts we knew by Monday morning. And as I said, our general counsel was out of town, but there was a more junior lawyer around the table there. And everybody was just, man was just a somber meeting. But the lawyer, when we kind of went around the table and said, all right, what do you think we should do next? On this one, it was very often that Dave and I came from things from slightly different perspectives, you know, we, we'd see different things and we, I think we made better decisions
16:40 Speaker 02 because steel sharpens steel. We'd engage a lot with each other. But on this one, there was no daylight between us from the very beginning. We knew the truth and we thought we needed to just say it. And so we made a decision at that meeting that we would release a statement by, by late that morning. Um, we gave him a deadline of 11. I think it took us till one. It always takes a little longer, but, but, uh, to say, to say what we knew. And we also thought that that would allow our institution to focus on fixing the problem rather than denying it or delaying things or trying to duck accountability. And, and
17:22 Speaker 02 Dave and I also did a press conference or press availability with the Pentagon media the following morning, which was, you know, that wasn't fun. Um, but in some ways, when we just said, these are the facts as we know them, and this is what we're doing to fix the problem, what could they ask? You know, we're going to deny things. It was really unpleasant, but it was the truth. And I think Dave and I were both committed to just telling the truth.
17:51 Speaker 02 Good afternoon.
17:54 Speaker 02 Perhaps open up with a couple of remarks. The offenses for which the shooter in Texas was court martialed should have been reported. And that's why we launched a full-scale review of this case and all others like it. Since Sunday night, the Air Force Inspector General has talked to about 100 people involved in this case. We are looking at all of our databases, and if we have problems that we find, we'll fix them.
18:24 Malcolm Gladwell? Dave, can you give us your memory of that press conference?
18:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, so, you know, it's, I think we both expected to get, you know, really tough questions, and we were prepared, you know, to own up, and, but it was like Heather said, right? Once we opened up with, hey, we own this, you know, we, the United States Air Force, goofed this up, and we as the leaders represent the institution that goofed this up. And so we take ownership, and our focus is now on ensuring that we understand all the facts, and we are going to fix this to ensure that it can never happen again.
19:10 Speaker 03 Once we started off with that statement, you really could have sort of felt the air go out of the room, and then the questions at that point were just more about detail. And I don't remember getting any really pointed, you know, attacks or questions. It was more, okay, well, tell us what you know about this, and how are you going to handle that? And so I think that, you know, my recollection of it was it accomplished what we were hoping it would accomplish, which was taking ownership.
19:40 Speaker 02 One of the things that somebody around that table on Monday morning said was, well, you know, you and the chief weren't the leaders of the Air Force at the time this prosecution happened, and they failed to report. And both Dave and I had the same reaction, was that doesn't matter. We represent the institution and Dave couldn't take the four stars off of his shoulders anymore than I could take the Airman's symbol off of my lapel. When you are the leader, you own the institution and you represent the institution and you have to take ownership for the institution and lead it forward.
20:21 Speaker 02 And so, so the fact that it didn't happen on our watch, that's no excuse.
20:26 Speaker 04 Mm hmm.
20:26 Speaker 02 Um, we're not going to make an excuse. We're not going to say it was somebody else's problem.
20:34 Malcolm Gladwell? We'll be right back.
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22:56 Malcolm Gladwell? What happens next? You have this press conference. You've told the world, we're looking into this. We're going to go over every single case, make sure we've done the right thing. But we still have the aftermath in Texas.
23:11 Speaker 02 This was a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base. And then some of the victims were the family of an airman who was deployed overseas. And Dave took the lead on that part. And I'll let him tell that part.
23:27 Speaker 03 We reached out to the community and, because there was a series of funerals they were holding, and reached out to the mayor of San Antonio, Ron Nuremberg at the time, and asked if it would be appropriate and it would be acceptable for me to travel to San Antonio and attend the funeral in uniform, representing the service, knowing that we were responsible for everything we've been talking about. Because I wanted to make sure that we weren't contributing to any increased pain by me being there. And I offered to also come and serve in attire if that's what they preferred.
24:09 Speaker 03 And they said, no, we appreciate if you would be here in uniform.
24:15 Speaker 03 So I met with the mayor first and we talked about, all right, how do we ensure that this is not just a, you know, once and done, that we have a long-term commitment to this community as the community works to recover from this tragedy? How do we ensure the Air Force is continually plugged in for the long term? So that was what the agenda working out with the mayor.
24:35 Malcolm Gladwell? Tell me more about going to that funeral. How did you feel on the flight down?
24:43 Speaker 03 Well, it was, I knew that we had an airman that was deployed and several members of his family, this is a young airman, several members of his families were killed.
24:57 Malcolm Gladwell? Several?
24:58 Speaker 03 And we were going to be several, yes, members of his extended family. Because remember, again, Sutherland Springs is a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base, which is one of our largest Air Force training bases. So the number of people that come through Randolph, it's probably one of the most traveled bases. So when you talk to airmen, right, and ask them of their, you know, common experiences, many of them will share a period of time when they went through Randolph Air Force Base or Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. So San Antonio is known as Military City USA is one of the, you know, the monikers that it's used because there's so much military.
25:39 Speaker 03 You can't go to the airport in San Antonio without seeing a large number of young airmen who are arriving for basic training or leaving. And so, you know, on the way down, I'm traveling in uniform to Military City USA. And I'm going to meet with this airman. And having had the unfortunate opportunity to meet with a lot of airmen and families over the course of my career, especially in the two years I was the Air Component Commander for Central Command, where we lost a number of soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines while I was there.
26:16 Speaker 03 I'd had experience with handling the tragedy of death and talking with the families. And so I had a good sense of what I was stepping into. I'll never forget, you know, going to the funeral. And I met with the pastor of the church, Frank Pomeroy. And it continually remains perhaps one of the most profound spiritual moments that I had as chief when, you know, Pastor Pomeroy stood up and started off by asking us if we would pray for the shooter and his family.
26:57 Speaker 03 And he did so while his 14-year-old daughter was in a casket because they had lost her in the shooting. I don't know if there's a better example of spiritual courage, right? We forgive those who trespass against us. I don't know that we're going to find a better example of that. And so being there for that airman, being there for those families was, you know, both profound and also, I think, I think every time there's a setback or a failure in an institution, it's an opportunity for the leaders to teach the next generation how to handle failure.
27:41 Speaker 03 Because we all get knocked down. All institutions have failures. The question is not whether you're going to fail, the question is how do you handle it when you do fail? Do you take ownership? Do you step up? Do you get back up? And do you teach the next generation of leaders how to handle failure so that they can be more prepared when it comes to them because it's going to come to them? My concern on this particular one was would there be a hostile reaction by the community to my being there? Because, and it's a hostile reaction not to me, but a hostile reaction to the United States Air Force. And there was none of that.
28:26 Speaker 03 It was a welcoming, opening. Sutherland Springs is an incredible community. And again, I go back to, you know, Pastor Frank Pomeroy, who is just an incredible, an incredible spiritual leader. I think he set the tone for all of us when he asked us to pray for the shooter.
28:44 Malcolm Gladwell? And there was, there wasn't a hostile reaction because you showed up.
28:51 Speaker 03 I don't know how much of it was because I think it was more we were all there for the same purpose.
28:59 Malcolm Gladwell? Yeah.
29:00 Speaker 03 Right? I was not there to do anything other than to, I mean, I didn't sit in, I didn't sit in the front row. They, they tried to, you know, move me up to the front row and I said, no, I'm part, I'm part of this community today. And so I want to sit with the community and I'd like to sit in an area that is, you know, with the families that are represented here and, and so this was not a, you know, we made a point, I made a point of my team. I said, do not please make this a big protocol event for the chief of staff of the air force.
29:39 Speaker 03 This is Dave Goldfein coming here to show my respect, my love for these families and to represent the institution that let them down.
29:50 Malcolm Gladwell? Hmm.
29:51 Speaker 02 So I don't think I could have done, first of all, I think Dave was, you know, there's a, when people think about the American air force, they don't think about somebody in civilian clothes, the secretary. They think about our uniformed military. And so I think Dave was the right one to represent us there and he and I talked about this. I, I also think, I'm not sure I could have done what he did. I mean, it was, it was just pretty amazing as a leader to do that. But I don't mean with the humility that he did it because he's that way, but just the whole thing's just so incredibly heartbreaking.
30:32 Malcolm Gladwell? Hmm. One last question. It's such an extraordinary story. Can you reflect on what this ought to teach us? What this taught you and what this ought to teach us about what a leader is?
30:50 Speaker 02 You know, there's a variety of lessons, I think, woven into this. I actually had to go up to Capitol Hill and testify in front of the Senate several months after this happened. And anybody who testifies in front of the Senate needs to be prepared to be grilled to get really hard questions. And I've had harder questions on more benign topics than I did on that day. And I think part of it was because I did in my opening statement pretty much what Dave and I had done the day after it happened, which was to own it and to tell the Senate what we were doing to fix it. And I, of course, had met individually
31:34 Speaker 02 with the senators, mostly the senators and the House members most directly affected. I remember we had a wonderful Director of Legislative Affairs, General Steve Basham. We called him Bash. He was a B-2 pilot, very experienced in legislative affairs and aviation. And he was sitting behind me in his very stoic way, as he did as a two-star, and helped prepare me. He had been there Monday morning, sitting through the meetings. He had gone with me to the Hill for all of the one-on-ones. He had been involved in all of this. And he was usually a very straight guy, very professional guy. And when we walked out of that hearing, he said, you know, Madam Secretary, I learned something today. That's
32:18 Speaker 02 a pretty strong statement coming from a two-star with all of his experience. And I said, well, what's that, Bash? He said, the result of today's hearing wasn't decided today. It happened in the 24 hours after the incident, when you and the chief took ownership. And by taking ownership, by owning failure, we not only allowed the institution to focus on fixing the problem.
32:52 Speaker 02 And focusing on the future rather than on kind of trying to mess around and deny the past. But it also, you know, sometimes when institutions screw up, they get sued or there's claims or whatever. And yes, the government did get sued, the Air Force got sued by the families of the victims. But for as the institution, the families also were, if we had denied responsibility, the relationship between the communities and the service would have been completely different. And because it would have been, you know, arms-length difference with lawyers talking
33:32 Speaker 02 to lawyers and it would not have allowed them to heal either. And so I think it mattered to the institution to be able to say, okay, when things get screwed up, the best thing to do is to own it and fix it, even when it really hurts. And it's also the best for the people who have been impacted by the failure.
33:53 Speaker 03 I'll share with you that I've, you know, I've come to believe over the years that the journey to becoming an inspirational servant leader is a journey that actually never ends. I'm still not the servant leader I want to be, but I'm working on it. And I think if we ever get to a point where we plant the flag as leaders and believe we figured it all out and got it all, maybe that's a pretty good indication of it's time to retire. Because we've stopped learning, we've stopped listening, we've stopped growing as leaders. And so, you know, leadership as a servant leader is a gift. And it's a gift that's offered by those you're privileged to lead, and you've got to earn and re-earn that gift every single day.
34:38 Speaker 03 And you, and you earn trust and confidence as a leader over weeks, months, and years. But it can be lost in a single moment of indiscretion or bad decision-making or bad behavior. And so for us, there was an opportunity that was presented for us to teach that next generation of leaders what servant leadership looks like. And so perhaps part of the, you know, the, the positive outcome of this incredibly terrible tragedy for these families in this community is there's a, there's a story here that can help the next generation when they face something similar and how to step up as leaders and take ownership.
35:27 Malcolm Gladwell? I'm going to change what I said at the beginning. I don't just want Heather Wilson to run for president. I want the two of them on the ticket. Doesn't matter which party, doesn't matter which order, Wilson and Goldfein or Goldfein and Wilson, Wilson and Goldfein in 2028 to remind us what real leadership looks like. If you want to know more about the two of them, they wrote a wonderful book together, Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership. Links to the book are in our show notes. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadaf Hafrin. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Fact checking by Angeli Mercado. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.
36:09 Malcolm Gladwell? Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, Owen Miller, and Sarah Brugger. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorski. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. Coming next week on our Mistakes series.
36:26 Speaker 10 He's like, yo, I need you to make a record. And I said, what? He said, make a record with J Lo and put Ja on it and make it a duet.
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37:39 Speaker 13 Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
Previous The Sony Hack | The Mistakes Series Next Why Would I Do That to Jennifer Lopez? | The Mistakes Series Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated