Can we defend against AI hacks? | Dozie Anazia

When AI can fake your CFO’s face and voice, what still counts as proof of identity? Infosec Analyst Dozie Anazia joins Reid Hoffman and Parth Patil to explain how AI is transforming cyberattacks, penetration testing, and autonomous defense. Drawing on projects including the Breakfast news app and Aegis URL scanner, he shows how Claude and Codex can build software, uncover an XSS flaw, and run a pen test—while still falling short of unsupervised network defense and elite human hackers. They explore purple teaming, agent-versus-agent review, and the advantage defenders retain over attackers. Plus, one low-tech defense against a stolen voice: a family safe word.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You're typing on your computer, the AI is able to know what keys you're hitting. The pitch from where the location of the key is on your keyboard can give away your password.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Finance employee joined a video call with people who looked and sounded like the company CFO and colleagues, and then transferred twenty five millionish dollars.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  You should now, like, this is now the world we live in where you can't really trust real time video and someone can put your face on, someone can wear your voice, kind of like a mask. The token grantee program gives a thousand dollars a week in tokens to high potential creators already deep in AI across film, gaming, comics, print, and digital art. There are no tool restrictions. The freedom to choose is the point. Grantees also get access to my own custom fleet of agents and an ongoing collaboration with me. The goal: to close the gap between an idea and the world.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Part of this tokens program is showing how AI is, you know, kind of revolutionizing creativity, building, you know, and kind of having a variety of folks who are using tokens, tokens to the future in order to kind of build and to show what they build and illustrate this for for other folks and kind of help see the future. And so I'm doing this with Parth Patel and Parth. I'll hand it over to you to kick off the episode.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Awesome. Thanks, Fareed. So, super excited to have you here today. Today, we have a really good friend of mine. We have Dozie Anazia. And and we're really excited to have you on this, on the token, token grantee program, especially because Dozie comes from a slightly different background from everyone else in the program. Dozie's background is in is in cybersecurity, but let's, we'll get to that. I want to go back to how we met. I think it was five years ago now. We met. I met Dozie on Clubhouse five years ago, yeah, back in twenty twenty one. We were talking, we were hanging out on rooms on Clubhouse, talking about games, talking about, you know, science fiction, nerd culture, and then just like where the future was headed.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  So why don't you, why don't we take people back, you know, introduce yourself? Maybe like where we were when we met and then where we, where we are today and what you're up to.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, I think that's, that's a pretty good description. We just randomly met on Clubhouse as, as one does. It's twenty twenty one and I don't actually remember exactly where we met. We, I think we just had like the same group of friends and we're talking about like software development, AI data, like all the like tech stuff. And I think we just kind of like serendipitously like found each other because we both like would use gaming as like a metaphor for, a metaphor or philosophy for just everything.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  So I always found, I always found you interesting because you did that and I also did the same. So just describing life in gaming, gamify life was like, kind of like, how we started like having conversations with each other, but yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think especially as AI came online in twenty, KATGPT in twenty twenty two, and then GPT four in twenty twenty three, we were, we were pretty early. Like, there's a huge early adopter community on Clubhouse, as you know. And we were early to playing with these tools and seeing what code generation was. And I was kind of like, oh, my God, we need to unpack this together, right? Like, I'm seeing what it does to data analysis. Dozy's in school studying, studying, you know, computer science. So clearly both of our fields are rapidly being transformed. And, and yeah, it also, it's, it's like when you find these people, these teammates, and you start exploring the unknown, it's, it's, it's so much better than doing it alone.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  And, and especially as agents and AI gets more powerful. I think it's really, I find it really helpful to have someone like Dozy around, having, you know, forcing me to reconsider how many permissions I'm giving my agents.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  So, yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say that it's funny you brought that up too, because when I was in school,

• 4:21Speaker 02

  I think, I think it was like my second to last semester, my professor, I took an artificial intelligence class and that was like twenty twenty one and it, this was like, he was showcasing OpenAI and OpenAI was, was basically led, giving you access to like Atari games and then you, you could just basically put it in your, a Google Colab notebook or, or an Anaconda notebook and you just play like Pong or something like that in like, in a, in a, in a, in a web interface. So, yeah. Like, I was on OpenAI like twenty twenty one, twenty twenty, so that was, yeah, that was my first rendition of it.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  So by the way, I totally get how you guys are like besties. I mean, it's like, it's like all the keywords that I associate with Parth. It's like gaming, clubhouse, AI, you know, it's like check, check, check, check. That's totally fucking awesome. The, but the, you know, I'm curious about how this also kind of connects to your current day with AI. Like, there's a whole breadth of projects you've worked on with tokens, you know, gaming experiments, you know, Star Collector, Letterboxd, all the way to, you know, kind of like, part of it is, you know, and we're not gonna go into, we're gonna stay at fairly general and externally known examples, but also you do a bunch of stuff in security and you have a security expertise.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  And so I'm curious about like, kind of what your, your, your engagement with AI has been across this range. Cover some of them and then interrelate them some.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's, it's interesting because I, so I'm, I'm working on the gaming projects. The gaming projects are, are fun because it's just like, I'm just my own play tester for the game. And then whatever I don't like, I prompt it again and then I'm trying to figure out like how to, how to get to like that, that X factor of playability.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  And then just, I, my brain is just all over the place, ADHD. I can't focus on anything to save my life, but I have so many ideas. And specifically, all of it does encompass security. Because if you're gonna put any of these things on a website, you have to do some sort of like sanitization of the code and, and AI does that for you. Codex does that. And the crazy thing right now is that the, the last project that I've been working on, so, so my, my recent project is called, it's called Breakfast.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  And it's a, I'm, I'm making a mobile breaking news aggregator.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  And so, so when I, so when I finished the project, I, so I do it in Claude and then I moved it to Codex to like do the code review. Codex is like, this is very vulnerable. There, there's a, there's a cross scripting vulnerability in it. So like the last like couple of days, I've just been trying to like, you know, code it properly. And I, I was building a, a platform that just does like a code review of the, of the URL. But like, the AI is already, is kind of already doing it. But like, if you don't have the AI, then you can just, you could, with the platform, the other platform I'm building,

• 7:59Speaker 02

  it's called Aegis. You can just throw in a, your URL and it just like, it kind of just scans it and tells you like if there's any port vulnerabilities. It does like all the OWASP standards. So, yeah, it's just, security encompasses everything. Like, you're never really gonna get away from it. And, yeah, it's really important, especially right now, especially the way AI is going.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Well, we'll come back to some of the, you know, relationship between the gaming and the cultural stuff because I'm, it's the breadth that's also one thing. But since we're on security, you know, what scenario do you worry that, you know, many security folks, especially ones who maybe not as deeply versed in AI yet, of scenarios that they're, that the, that those security people are still treating as science fiction and that they should be thinking, you know, actually, the future is already here. It may be unevenly distributed.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  So tha- that's funny that you use the, the, use it science fiction because I feel like we're, we're living in the science fiction as we speak. We're this, we're in real time science fiction because there are so many different attack surfaces now. And um, for, for example, I saw something with uh, LE, LED light, like there's a, there's a way to, there's a, if you have like an LED on your, like your keyboard or something like that, there's a way for you to like view what's happening from another surface, from another machine through the LED light, which is crazy.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Or like if you're, if you're typing on your computer, the, the AI is able to know what keys you're, you're hitting, which is insane to me because you, like if you can hear someone typing their password, then you have their password. Which is like infathomable to me, how the AI can do that. It's like, i- if you were like in the nineties, if you, you, you would like mask like the, the, the phone sounds from your.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Right, from when you're typing.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Right, so, but now it's just like literally the pi- the pitch from where the location of the key is on your keyboard can give away your password. That's insane to me.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  That is crazy. Um, no, I feel that, I feel the same way. I mean, we play, you know, my favorite game is Cyberpunk. And I look around in Cyberpunk, I'm like, wait a minute, almost every single thing in this game is definitely doable in the real world. Um, where, you know, just, just like the programs that we can talk to, that can do a lot of the things that were previously manual. And then thinking like, oh, you can clone them. Okay, so now we have scale, we have like parallelization, which is both a huge benefit and a, and a negative, right? So I can actually have a bunch of these, these agents looking at what I'm working on and adversarly kind of like critiquing the things that I'm making. Um, yes, it's, it definitely feels like we're, we're living in a science fiction world.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, and now it's, now it's, it's gonna be like autonomous, like pen testing, if anything. Um, because, because we, like we've, I think we were having this conversation before. Um, I don't know what's gonna happen with like, just the, the, the defense aspect of it because now it's like, now companies are like employing like third-party companies to like do their pen testing. But now you, now you're just gonna get an agent to do it for you.

• 11:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  And, and then like, you really just need to get like a, a third-party company to audit the agent. But at the same time, like now, now you have like malware that's undetectable. It's just like endless possibilities of like what can happen. Um, like.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Well, actually, it's not, it's not endless, right? Because if you're the one that's making the software, you have like an information advantage, right? So it's, you know, everything, you have like the whole code base, so you know what the possible surface area is, where an attacker has to find the opening.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Right, and then, and but then you have like the types, the, I think the incentivization of, of this type of thing would just be to like, if you're making that software, you, you just create a backdoor for it. That's, I thi- and that's like where the, I think that's where the like disconnect comes from. When, when people are making these types of things, they're, they're doing it for the money. And if, if they make a backdoor for it, that's, I mean, tha- that's where it's gonna go. That's really what happens when you're, we're trying to find ways to like break into some of these, these, these uh, uh, into the software. The, the backdoor is already there, it's just, you ha- you don't have the knowledge yet, you know?

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Ah, right, right. This is something I noticed about all my friends in security. It's like, you kind of like benefit from this like, assume the worst is already like

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  possible. Assume that, that like, assume it's not secure and that we're only just like, you know, that you, actually, it's, it's probably the best mindset in security is that, um, assume, you know, understand the blast radius and assume that it's not secure and then start looking for everything that you could, that could possibly go wrong and contain the, the uh, the possible, um, you know, blast radius. And then that's right, the attacker, the attacker, um, you know, the attacker only needs to find one opening. And then once you have the speed of AI, you can kind of move, they can move very quickly.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Right, right, and, and that's, that's honestly the scariest part is the, the fact that like, if you like, for example, if you, if, if the attacker already has like your information, um, and like they know what like bank you, you bank with, they can, they can clone, like if you have AI, you can clone like the, the webpage that, the login webpage to your bank. And the, the velocity in which you can do that now is like, is frightening. So that's, that's, you can just like deep, deep fake a page or, you know.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Vibe code, deep fake a website.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's deep faking a website. You can vibe code an attack, essentially.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  But I think one of the things, we should, we should linger on this a little bit because the question is a changing surfaces of offense advantage, decent advantage, you know, there's a question of can you, you find only one thing, you create credentials, you can be able to do that. You only have to find one hole, whether it's a, you know, clone, bank, or anything else. But um, you know, say a little bit about kind of like in this kind of offense and defense side. You know, there's, there's both the AI making individual attacks more sophisticated. But there's also like many, many different attacks and making it a lot cheaper to run.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  That, those are all kind of things on the offense side and go through some of that. And then also, like, you know, uh, what are the things that we need to be doing on defense, given this too?

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Well, well, that's the thing, like, that's, that's the thing I'm not sure about because when it comes to blue team, like you, i- if you're, so if, if you're, if you're an attacker, you wanna do it like in a black box, like you don't give the attacker any information. And that's, that's how they, like, they have to figure out their way into the, into the space. If they can do it, then, then, okay, then the blue team does the research based on the uh, what the, what the red team did. So I, I would say like, the best, the best defense, or what's the, what's the phrase?

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Uh, your best defense is a good offense or something like that? So I, I would essentially just assume that you would use autonomous agents to better, do better research for the blue team. So that's, that's kind of how I'm seeing it.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  And break into your own stuff before anyone else does, right?

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Right, so tha- so that's what I was saying before is that you, you, instead of like employing a third-party company to do pen testing, you just, you employ a, an agent to do your pen testing and then you have that company audit the agent or um, yeah, or, or, or the, or the other way around, you have the pen tester uh, break into your company and then you have like the AI, like maybe work in tandem with the third party. So it's just, the, the defense part is really difficult because a- at a certain point, you're never gonna be able to, like, there's always, apparently there's always a way in.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  There, there is also like the teamwork aspect of defense where, like you and I can, you know, you and I can team up and share what we know about defensive tactics. Whereas, you know, so like, you know, banks, institutions, infrastructure, it's not like they're playing single player, right? As, when they're trying to defend themselves, the tactics, the tactics of the attackers are known, right? There's a, there's a whole set of possible, well, there's, like, you have a framework for this.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  You have like the attack, uh, the minor attack framework, which is just all of the different techniques that are used by the, the advanced persistent throughout the, the nation state, the, like, like China or Russia, like their techniques on how to get into um, companies or just like, you know, cyber, cyber red teaming. But then like, you have like the, the common vulnerability exposure, I think the CVEs. So like, as soon as like a CVE comes out, I think that, I think that's where the AI needs to come in. The AI needs to be able to, as soon as there's a common vulnerability or like a zero day, the AI, like you need to have like

• 17:46Speaker 02

  an autonomous agent dedicated to defending against something like this.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Well, I think, by the way, it's worth, I mean, look, it's, it's, I think it's both in the cybersecurity thing, it's both being, being highly concerned about, you know, science fiction is now, and there's a whole bunch of stuff where it amplifies the o- the offense side. It's cheaper, multi-threaded, um, kinds of attacks.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  I think one defense is the multiplayer game side. The other one is, you know, the um, hope, maybe not yet reality is that uh, we might be able to actually better arm defense with like the best models, um, you know, kind of compute from that. You know, it's part of like, you know, what's going on with Mythos is not only does it discover vulnerabilities very well, but it also suggests, you know, uh, fixes and is kind of at a higher quality model of attack and defense.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Red teaming, they're hiring agents, third parties, you know, you, you get more resilient to other than the, than the absolute best attackers. So I, I'm just like, kind of a little bit of like, a kind of like, what are some of the areas that you would, you would kind of say, hey, we have to adjust to an AI universe, but these are the things that we need to be thinking about, really making sure we're doing so that we're not just swamped with successful, you know, call it hostile AI, you know, cyber agents.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, that is all, that, that is like the point of where I, I, I'm hands off because I honestly, like with Mythos, i- if Mythos is like a purple team philosophy, then.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  Same, what, what exactly, what is, what is purple teaming?

• 19:41Speaker 02

  So purple team would be like the mix between red and blue. So, so you're just, it, it's, it's both of them combined, it's kind of like how gray hat is like white hat, black hat. That's, it's, it's in the middle. So you're kind of like employing both sides to, to understand like what is the, the best way to attack? What's the best way to defend? You know, that's, that's kind of, so if, if Mythos is. And I, and I, I, I was assuming that mythos was like more of a red team thing, but if it's defending and

• 20:13Speaker 00

  It's doing both.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Right, yeah. So if it's, if it's defending and if it's self-healing and finding vulnerabilities and, and patching them up as he, as you go, then that's, I, I believe that would be the way to go. But again, like.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  There's also speed, right? In like, as the models get faster, speed's gonna be a huge aspect to this.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  I was reading an article just earlier today on, as long as you can, you can be like the best at one of those aspects, whether it's like speed, or you have like the best hardware.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  It was Schneider on security and they were talking about how AI, like the AI assisted evolution is, is honestly the way to go. That's, that's what we've been talking about. But if you can find a way to have like, implement like, so it's, I guess it's like continuous integration or continuous deployment. If you, the next phase of that would be like continuous discovery. So as long as you are always looking for the vulnerabilities within the system and you are like.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Proactively.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, proactive AI. If you're, if you're going that direction, then that's honestly the way to go.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Well, so let's, let's go through, you know, a couple, a couple of the, you know, key areas that you know very well, Dozie, that the, that it's important to do is kind of find, okay, so, you know, kind of red, blue and purple teaming and kind of having different, you know, kind of models weaknesses and obviously adversarial review is one of the key things here because

• 21:56Speaker 00

  capabilities and blind spots, even in just kind of like, you know, the amazing models, Fable, Soul.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Et cetera. So,

• 22:08Speaker 00

  if we're, you know, kind of doing a, you know, kind of like, like having to do like this huge surface of different models.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Is the only way to do that, to have machines, stress test machines? Does it give some really deep concerns about, you know, the limits of human review? You know, what's the, what's the way to kind of pull this together, both in a way to solve the problem, but also in like, understanding what's going on?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, I would say that like, you're never, you're, you're always gonna have to have the human in the loop.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  AI is good, but like AI is still like not better than the best hacker. So, so again, it's, it's always gonna be a combination of the two.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  And, and, and what I was saying before was it, it has to, so yeah, so in, in order to excel in, in the space, you have to, you have to be the best in one of the, one of these different disciplines, whether it's like the speed, whether it's the scale, the scope or the sophistication. So, so that, and, and that's what I was saying before, you just, as long as, like, if you can be the first to get to like the vulnerability, then sure, if you, if you have like the technology to scale as far as, as far as you need to be like to brute force something.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  Right, the search space, yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Right, so that, so as long as you're like, um, zeroing in and, and, and one of those disciplines, then I, that, that's honestly where you need to be because you can just be a, a random script kitty and deploy an autonomous agent and it could, it could take down the whole company. So that.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've noticed that. That's the, like, the script kitty has never been this, like, it's the same power that gives people vibe, vibe coding superpowers. It's like now, it's like, it's like casually, like you're able to casually like, break things on accident, even if you don't even know what's going on. So, and I guess like, when you think about, when you think about like the, the power of the computer equipped person, right? Like the, the paralyzation, like where do you think like the human, like the human, like, I think, my thing is like, I like having an agent that just patrols my network.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  While I'm asleep. And even if it's just read only, it's not, not that it actually builds anything, but that it's just reading everything and making sure that like, no, none of the agents on my network are going rogue. None of them are like, you know, putting keys in the wrong places. And I like it, but I feel that it's not enough for it to just be reading while I'm asleep because I would actually want it to wake me up. Or I would want it to actually mitigate, when something goes wrong, like I wanted to mitigate the, the, um, the exposure that I, that I have there. So I guess like, what do you think about like, when we give our defensive agents more, more agency, more proactive, how proactive, at what point we're gonna start seeing them like, you know, go find the issue and solve it immediately before you even wake up?

• 25:14Speaker 00

  Do you think about that? Like the human, where we, as a human in the loop, you actually want to not nest, need to be in the loop to play defense?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's hard to say that, like, you, you, are you gonna be able to ever just be completely autonomous? I, I, I don't know. I don't know if that's like the best idea because if, if the agent starts malfunctioning, then it's, then it's definitely a problem. And that, like, if, if you're, if you have like a hallucinating, like, like adversarial agent, that's like, that's, that, that, that's something that, that's something that you don't want.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  But, um, it's honestly, I, I would say that like, you have the agent that, that patrols, you, but you just have, you just have a second agent that has that specific skill.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Uh, somebody was, I, I was in a room earlier.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  So like different perspectives, different perspectives on playing defense, playing at the same time.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, exactly. But I guess the, the way to, to talk about that would be,

• 26:21Speaker 02

  skills and not, not like human skills. I'm talking like the, the AI skills.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Agent skills, yeah.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so one of the, one of the, I was in like a cyber room earlier today and they were talking about like the compounding of skills, like,

• 26:36Speaker 02

  if you have, like, there, there are several different GitHubs that are just like autonomously pen testing. If, if you have like, um, I, I think he, I think he called it super skills. So, so you just, so you just have like several different skills on top of each other and then you have an agent basically extract from those skills to make like, like a super agent. I, I don't know if that, that's where he was going with it, but that, I think that's, that's where we're going. We're just, you're gonna have to compound a bunch of skills together to, for an agent to do what you're talking about. Or you just have multiple agents with maybe like a, a few sets of skills.

• 27:17Speaker 00

  And slightly different like theories of how you might want to play the defense.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you don't put everything into one, into one bucket.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I guess that, that gets into the, the white hat space. You know, people are starting to deploy their own agents to, to look for vulnerabilities, look for impersonation. It's basically fighting AI fraud with AI defense.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Which is like a modern version of the old, like of the white hat, uh, the white hat game. Do you think of, do you think that, um, this turns security into an arms race between agents? And where the side, where having a better model wins by default?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so when you, when you say arms race, I'm thinking like, who has the most like expensive, who has the most hardware, who has like the, the, like the highest like,

• 28:13Speaker 02

  capability and like, I don't know if that's necessarily the case because you have like instances with like, uh, deep seek,

• 28:22Speaker 02

  basically blowing it out of the water and spending a fraction of what OpenAI is spending. So I, I think it's more of, when, when, whenever there's a paradigm shift, it's not in, it's not in, uh, in, in arms race, it's, it's just more of, it's, it's a new capability or it's, it's, it's honestly hard to explain. I, I'm having a hard time expressing it, but I think.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  It's not necessarily better model, but it's like better resourced, better, better in a couple of different ways.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  It's in, it's like an optimization race, if, if you will. I think that would be the, the way to like phrase that.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Well, let's come back to one of the things we were talking about a little bit earlier because I do think this is a, one of the really important things is to say, well, offense has, has, has a attack on, you know, has an advantage on just finding the one angle that works with the now broader computer surface, together with the ability to experiment with it and do things with AI. Defense has a, has the multiplayer, you know, configuration. How do we, you know, how do we get the incentives to work in defense, you know, kind of coordination? Because it's kind of like the, you know, there's, there's, there's actually some, I don't want to reveal my weaknesses.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  For him.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  I don't want to share my benefits with potential competitors, or once I share those, maybe those also leak to the offense. How do we, how do we get the kind of multiplayer defense incentivized the right way?

• 29:55Speaker 02

  I mean, the, the multiplayer defense is, I, I would say that, that, that's kind of our, that's already like what's happening. If you have like a company come in and if you, like, like I said before, like if you have company come in to do pen testing, they, you would have to give them an NDA. Like, they can't, like, they obviously can't reveal, like, your vulnerabilities or anything like that to, to anyone in the public because that would be a security issue. So it's, it's more of like, cybersecurity isn't just like the, the hard skills of like coding and like cracking passwords or anything like that.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  It's there, I mean, it's, policy is a big deal. The, following the law, having like a very rigid policy on how your company operates would be the way to go. But I feel like the, the, the law has not caught up to AI yet. So there, I feel like that's, I think that's the advent that we're, we're very close to, that there's, there's just going to be like a, like a loophole with AI and, and, and some aspect where, like the AI, the AI that you purchased, that you like, basically put on your own company,

• 31:19Speaker 02

  like you, like someone, you have cited over, they have cited over to you. So now, like, if it malfunctions or hallucinates or something like that, it's on you, it's not on them. So.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  When things go south, like you publish a report on what happened, and then in order to incentivize people to publish anonymized reports, when you don't, you don't need to give up the customer information, user details, et cetera. But, you know, outlining the style of the attack, because there's going to be novel attack patterns that are emerging, novel or, or at a higher frequency than they were pre-AI. But when you see, when you can reward people for sharing the, you know, sharing the shape of the attack as it emerges, by rewarding them with access to frontier models, for example, like, or rewarding them with access to more defensive measures. And then, I think then, it's like, it's like, we want a world where you're not playing single player defense, I'm not playing single

• 32:13Speaker 00

  player defense, and then both of us have, you know, like, we have, we could have had overlapping defenses where we're covering, you know, a wider set of strategies, instead of individually trying to, to, to patch everything. And I think that creating some kind of reward for sharing, sharing information about the new shapes of attacks that are coming online, so that the, the defenders have a way to, like, whether that's access to frontier models that can play defense, access to compute to, to do that defense, fortifying our systems, you know, okay, well, you got, well, let's say one bank notices an attack, and then notifying the rest of the, you know, the financial institutions of that shape of attack, before it becomes a bigger, bigger problem in the ecosystem.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Right. I think it's, it's tough to say because, I mean, there's no, there's no way to tell like what someone's true intentions are. So, I mean, not everybody's an altruist, not everybody is just thinking that, okay, well, I have compute power, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, with the great power comes great responsibility, I'm just gonna do this for good. I don't think it really works that way, because, I mean.

• 33:23Speaker 00

  Or I guess you, you could pay people to.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Make, make, make playing defense more lucrative than playing offense.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  I wish, I wish that was, I wish that was the case.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Defenders all around the world wish that was the case.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  The, we, we're unfortunately, because lots and lots have surfaced, speaking of surfaces to, to go after. I think we only have time for one more question before we, you know, turn to our closing motions. But I know one of the things that you have done some in-depth thought on, and, because, you know, we've talked about it before, is, you know, one of the most famous deep fake scans that happened in Hong Kong a few years ago, where a finance employee joined a video call with people who looked and sounded like the company CFO and colleagues, and then transferred 25 million-ish dollars.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Tell a little bit about that. And then, if seeing and hearing someone is a longer verification, what replaces it? Like, what's, what, where, where are the vulnerabilities and the fixes?

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, so, the, the thing about that case is that, that happened in like 2024. So that was like, pretty early.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Within AI. So that's, so that's like, that speaks to like the speed aspect of attacks. If you have like new technology like this, and you're the first to display it, then like, like, think about like, be, having a model and, or having like Sora, like in 2023, when you, you can't, you can't even tell that, like, no one, no one's thinking about that type of thing. No one's thinking about deep fakes. I mean, I mean, deep fake, deep fakes have been going on for a minute, but like, the, the, the way to like spin up a deep fake that quickly with like people that, you know, that you see in everyday life, and that, that you're, you're even had, you've been snowed so quickly, there's

• 35:24Speaker 02

  no way to like, it's, it's insane.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  This, I, yeah, so I've been, I've been playing with a lot of these tools, and I wanted to see what the best one of these that you could run on a consumer GPU, my own gaming graphics GPU, I, I downloaded, I think it was, it was, it was an open source library, and it was the, it was called Deep Cam Live. It was, okay, well, maybe I shouldn't talk about it. But it was the, it was, it's like the trending open source library of the, on GitHub trending. And I downloaded it, and I realized with one picture of your face, I could put your face on, in a live video call. And, and then immediately, I just like, told my family about it, right? Because I think those are, like, it's like, it's like, I am wearing my cousin's face right now. And I like put his face on in

• 36:08Speaker 00

  a video call, I was like, guys, like, you should now, like, this is now the world we live in, where real time video is, you know, you, you don't, you can't really trust real time video, and someone can put your face on, someone can wear your voice, kind of like a mask. And all I knew to do was to tell everyone that I want to protect, that this is now a capability, that it could run on a graphics card that like just anyone has, right? It's not that it's like, an expensive thing, it's, or that it costs any money at all. But yes, so, and that was, that was like, two years ago, open source model runs on a at-home GPU. I think we get the same thing in, so that's the video streaming, we get that with the voice, we get that, I mean, we have Read AI, which is hopefully trying

• 36:50Speaker 00

  to be a positive example of what digital amateurs can be.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And I would say like.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Because this is a new form of social engineering, right? Right?

• 37:01Speaker 02

  That, that, that was, that case was like everything. That was social engineering, that was, that was phishing, that was, it was deep fake, it was, it was a, a bank heist. So that, that, it, that had literally everything you could think of. It was whale fishing.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  If, if you, if you know what whale fishing is. It had so much in it. So it was just, it's, it's a, it's a good lesson for the world to, to understand like what we're up against. But.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  It's just. Yeah. And, and then like, as far as like, like phishing, and like, like if someone like steals your, like your voice, I think you just need to, and it's so easy to steal someone's voice.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Oh, that's phishing. That's what phishing means.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Voice phishing.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Okay, wow. Well, but again, like, it was phishing, it was, it was a, like a deep fake, it took like, everything. But I think you, I hate to say it, but like, you might need safe words for like people in your life.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Like, you need like pineapple, or just like something, like, you need to really interrogate people.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  For the, the other person, you, you need, the other person needs to reveal that they know, they are who they say they are without.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Without, you know, say something that only Dozie would know.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Based on your interaction with me, based on how you know me, it's like.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Who's your favorite Marvel superhero?

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, the, the new Lantern show, there's like this clip going around of like, this guy like revealing that he's an alien. The guy's talking about voting for Obama at the time, but then he asked him, like, who, what, what school Harry Potter went to, and he couldn't answer. So that like gave it.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  So you're obviously not from Earth, if you haven't seen Harry Potter.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Well, Dozie, thank you very much. It's been awesome. I look forward to future conversations.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Reed, it was, it was an absolute pleasure to meet you. Thank you for having me.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Possible is produced by Palat Media. It's hosted by Ari Finger and me, Reid Hoffman. Our showrunner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Tenasi Delos, Katie Sanders, Spencer Strasmore, Imo Zoo, Aman Suri, Danny Garrison, Trent Barboza, and Tafadzwa Nima Rundwe.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Special thanks to Surya, Yala Manchili, Sayida Sabieva, Ian Alice, Greg Beato, Parth Patil, and Ben Ralas.