#946 Pascal Gauthier On The Best Way To Secure Your Bitcoin

Pascal Gauthier is the Chairman & CEO of Ledger In this conversation we talk about hardware wallets, E. U. regulation, why cold storage Is so important, and self sovereignty. ======================= Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a web3 crypto browser. No extension required. Store, manage, and grow your portfolio, get NFT & multi-chain support, and more. Download the Brave privacy browser at brave.com/Pomp, and click the wallet icon to get started. ======================= The Pomp Podcast is powered by BetOnline.ag, the world's largest sports betting, casino, poker and horse racing website that accepts cryptocurrency for wagering. BetOnline.ag gives you the ability to use Bitcoin and more than a dozen altcoins to make deposits and withdraw your winnings. There are no crypto transaction fees, and processing is instantaneous and secure. Visit https://promotions.betonline.ag/pomp and use PROMO CODE: POMP100 to receive a 100% matching bonus on any crypto deposit. BetOnline.ag is available in nearly every country around the world, making it the top global gaming destination for crypto users. ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Pascal Gutierrez is the Chairman and CEO of Ledger. In this conversation, we talk about hardware wallets, regulation in the EU, self-sovereignty, and much, much more. I really enjoyed this conversation with Pascal, and I hope that you enjoy it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by FTX US. FTX.us is the safe, regulated way to buy and sell Bitcoin and other digital assets. You can trade crypto with up to 85% lower fees than top competitors. There are no fixed minimum fees, no ACH transaction fees,

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:28Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:02Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Pascal, how are you doing, my friend?

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm doing great. Thank you for having me.

• 3:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Of course. Thank you for coming on. I want to first start maybe with Ledger is obviously the leader when it comes to self custody. Why is this so important, right? For you to dedicate so much time, energy, resources to building a business that allows people to self custody these assets. Talk to me about just the why behind building a company like Ledger.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I think it's the very basics of why crypto? I mean, if crypto exists just to put it in the bank, then why crypto? Why do we need blockchain technology? Why do we need private keys and all of this? You know, I think crypto and Bitcoin was meant for decentralization, was meant for moving away from a centralized system where everything relies on single entities into something decentralized where suddenly you can own your private keys and you can own your money. You know, I think that's the principle of Bitcoin.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  And blockchain technologies. And so now the question became very quickly, okay, but how can you do this in the most secure way? Because there is one thing with blockchain transaction is they're immutable. So once it's gone, it's gone. And the endpoint security, the security of the private key, whether when it's at risk and or when you need to sign the transaction is, you know, these are the two moments where people can take the private keys from you. This is the moment, this is the endpoint security that you need to watch for. And so hardware security today is the only way to really secure your private keys. And this is the raison d'existence, as we say in French, of ledger. This is, you know, make things secure, make crypto secure and easy

• 5:17Speaker 02

  to use. These are the two missions that the company has. And we've been doing this since 2015. I was actually chatting with Eric Larchevac, founder and former CEO, yesterday, and I was asking him to send me the seed deck of the company. You wouldn't believe that the seed deck of the company looks exactly like the series C deck and will look exactly like the series D deck. Like we've, we've always been doing the same thing. And we're very dedicated to make this industry sort of much safer for consumers, but also enterprise.

• 5:50Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you start to think about this idea of securing digital assets, you said that basically that's the whole point of crypto is this idea of self sovereignty. What are some of the things that people should be looking at when they're evaluating how they are going to secure their assets? There's, in my mind, a couple of different things they can do, right? That you have wallets that are attached to regulated exchanges, you have software wallets, you have hardware wallets, you have cold storage, you have multi SIG, all these different ways to secure these digital assets. How do you walk people through kind of the evaluation process for what's the right thing for them and what they're trying to accomplish?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  I mean, the main question is, is always like, where are the private keys? And so if you trust a third party with your private keys, the question becomes, okay, what's the actual security they have? And what's the, what are the rules of governance?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Sometimes the keys are secure, like they are in a ledger. You trust your keys to a certain company. The keys will be eventually secure because they're either in an NOS, or they're, which is often the case, or in an HSM, hardware security models, or secure servers where you can put private keys. The question is not so much the security of the private keys, it's more the question of the governance, like who has access to the keys, etc. And so you've seen in the horror stories that the market has had in the past, it's usually the question of who has access to those keys? And sometimes you see, you know, people disappearing and suddenly no one has access to to the funds anymore. And so that's fundamentally a governance issue.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  And so it's very hard for consumers to figure that out. So usually, you know, trust the big guys that have the funds, the funds to pay you back in case they're being hacked. You know, this is what Binance does really well with their Seifu funds. Or when you have a company like Coinbase that is now sort of regulated and listed, you know, eventually they pay you, they'll pay you money back. But there is always a risk. And you know, actually, if you, if you look at the deal that you have with your bank, now I'm talking about the fiat system. If your bank goes bankrupt, actually, you know, they don't owe you much. Like if you have a million dollars in your bank account and you know, they go bankrupt, they don't have actually to pay you back. And so when you, when you work with a custodian or if you trust a custodian with your money,

• 8:09Speaker 02

  like it obeys the same rules. There is no guarantee that you ever see your money if something happened. And in the case of crypto, you know, there is a strong case that these exchanges or, you know, custodians could be hacked. And so really the question becomes what is the security layer they run on? If you look at Kraken, for example, and what JC says and what Kraken says publicly, they say, don't leave your funds on the exchange and, you know, retrieve your funds and, you know, keep them securely with you on a self custody wallet. Okay. And then the question becomes, okay, but now if I'm self custodying my funds, what should I do? So pro tip of the day, never leave your funds on a, on a software wallet,

• 8:51Speaker 02

  on your phone or on your computer. These are not secure enough. We have actually videos, you can look on our website, where we extract the private keys of software wallet in less than 30 seconds. It's almost all software wallets. And it's not really their fault, it's just the fact that software wallet rely on computers or phones that have not been designed for for security. And so you can attack the phone or the computer at the operating system level and it sort of drain everything that sits on top of it. So software has not been designed to secure crypto private keys. So really, if you self custody your keys, hardware is your only bet today. It's not just your best bet, it's your only bet. So if you have your coins in a metamask, for example, please do pair it with a hardware wallet.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  We believe Ledger is the best hardware wallet right now in the market, but there are others. And and the private keys need to be in hardware. So if you self custody the keys, it has to be in secure hardware at some point.

• 9:47Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you start to think about that hardware wallet itself, you've talked a little bit about the best practices for securing things. How should people evaluate hardware in terms of what they should use, what they shouldn't? And I always tell folks, you know, a simple thing is don't buy any hardware device from a third party. Go and buy it directly from the the creator, whether it's Ledger or somebody else. But when you all think about building these products, how do you expect the end user to actually evaluate the hardware? There's certain features that are more important than others? Or what's that evaluation process look like?

• 10:20Speaker 02

  No, first of all, I think that if you're going to handle your own security, you know, you need to to spend the time and, you know, to educate yourself. I think, you know, trying to

• 10:31Speaker 02

  trying to fast track yourself into this world is is a bad idea. So there is a lot of educational content everywhere on sort of everything. Ledger has a lot of educational content in the Ledger Academy. And we spend a lot of time and money just to to build this content. So people know what they're doing. And so know that when you go to self custody, it's a bit like in the Matrix, you're taking the red pill, I think. So you you're exiting from the Matrix. And so suddenly you need to sort of forget everything you think you know and, you know, learn this new world. And, you know, taking care of your own security and taking care of like digital assets is actually something very new. So you should be very mindful of what you're doing next. You know, in web two, you download an app and you say,

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes, we were all done this. It's like you say yes to everything, you don't read the fine prints and then you move on. I think you shouldn't be careless with Web three and with crypto in general, like you should really pay attention to to what you do because sometimes, you know, mistakes. Um, nobody's gonna fix that mistake for you, right? Because suddenly you're in charge of your of your own funds. And then when it comes to choosing a hardware wallet, I mean, there are a bunch of YouTubers, there are a bunch of reviews. So again, it's back back to to the education process. Um, and, uh, and you know, like hardware wallets are battle tested every day. So you can read reviews, you can you can read about, you know,

• 11:55Speaker 02

  what's what's safer, uh, usually ledger rates pretty highly. So so basically the answer is get a ledger. Anthony, like that's the best answer I can give you right now.

• 12:06Anthony Pompliano?

  That, of course, that's what you think, right? Um, let's switch gears.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  It's actually documented. I mean, Ledger is the safest out there. We sold five million devices versus the rest of the market that I've sold, you know, around one point something. Uh, and and also now, seriously, the good way of of thinking about a hardware wallet is, you know, it's two things. It's security, but also ease of use. So security, you know, there you can document yourself, you know, Ledger ranks pretty high when it comes to security. Actually, it ranks the highest. When it comes to ease of use, then it becomes the software. Okay, what is the software that comes with the the hardware wallet that is provided with a hardware wallet? So at Ledger, we have Ledger Live.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Ledger Live is becoming a really great value proposition in itself, like as a as a as a wallet in itself. I mean, it's great. And so you need to you need to look at that, you need to look at other software and make your decision. And then you need to look at also compatibility. So, you know, your your hardware wallet can link to uh, Ledger Live, sure, but okay, what can what can you what can you link to as well? So typically, your ledger wallet is compatible with your Coinbase wallet. It's compatible with a bunch of wallets that are that are out there. So I think this is the three things I will check, you know, security of the wallet, the software that comes with the wallet, uh, and then the competitive compatibility of your hardware wallet with other software services. And I think on these three things,

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Ledger ranks number one right now, which is why I say get a ledger.

• 13:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that makes sense. And then talk to me about in the EU, we've seen Parliament and various politicians come out and maybe they've overreacted to crypto or they don't really understand it and they've got some fairly abrasive perspectives to this. And part of quote unquote "security" is not just the hardware, but also what regulatory environment you are participating in. And I know that Ledger has played a part in trying to craft maybe some alternative policy. And in it, my understanding is that you guys put forward this policy that would allow the Parliament and regulators to address their AML and various financial sanction concerns, but it also would allow EU citizens and companies

• 14:17Anthony Pompliano?

  to continue to participate in a thriving, growing global economic market. And so talk through a little bit as to how you all are viewing what the current proposals are and then what you think they could adapt or change in order to make it kind of a better win-win scenario from a regulatory standpoint.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think two things. The regulation is happening right now because people were after, I can't even remember, Libra or DM or they were after Facebook. You know, Mika, the Mika regulation started because of Facebook mainly. And, you know, DM and Libra disappeared and so this tentative of regulation is being used against, I would say, you know, crypto. And so this is why it feels like it's going fast right now. And it's also why like the industry was not concerned because at the beginning, this regulation was not directed to the industry. And you can understand why for Libra and DM, it would sort of make sense

• 15:14Speaker 02

  because, you know, it was like, you know, half crypto, half centralized, you know, probably like, you know, a play by Facebook that was deemed by regulators to, you know, increase Facebook dominance. And so they didn't have, they didn't look at it with a kind eye. So this is what's happening right now. And the second thing that is happening is just, you know, some people hate freedom. Some people hate capitalism and free, and the free market. And, and those people exist and they exist in the European Parliament and they're pushing for regulation. So they're trying to pretend that they do it for the greater good of, you know, catching the terrorists and, and the drug business, but actually they do it just because, you know, they just don't like Bitcoin.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  They don't like crypto because Bitcoin and crypto promotes values that are against their agenda.

• 16:05Anthony Pompliano?

  So when when you see people talking about that, what's the way to actually get this kind of in a better situation? Is it things like Ledger and other companies in the industry putting forward legislation and saying, hey, here's a better way to do it? Is it going and directly educating them? Is it saying, hey, they're going to do whatever they're going to do and we just got to go win from a technology standpoint? Like, what's the best strategy for the industry when it comes to regulation?

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think it's all of the above. So there's not one thing, there are many things that you should do. So first of all, you know, this is the spirit of the letter that we wrote. And if you guys that are listening to this, you know, go on my Twitter account and the the the first link that is pinned is sort of like our proposition to the regulators in Europe. And we are advocating for a pragmatic approach, you know. I think the net net is, do we want to catch the bad guys? Yes, you know, no one is really debating that. The question is like, how do you catch the bad guys? And how do you take, you know, how do you, how do you understand that this is new technology? And so therefore, all rules don't really apply to crypto.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, if you, you know, through almost four years after the Bitfinex hack, like they found the people. So actually, crime on a blockchain is not, is not the best idea because, you know, it will follow you forever. It's an immutable blockchain, it's an immutable ledger, you know, that is public, that everyone can look into. And you have great tools right now, such as Genai is to actually track. So we are advocating for a pragmatic approach. And so we're making proposition and we are pushing the proposition sort of directly to to to the relevant people. That's number one thing. Number two, we're building, let's call it an association or a group

• 17:48Speaker 02

  at the European level also to to to to push, because that doesn't really exist. Like, I mean, in the US, you have Coin Center, etc. But in Europe, actually, there was nothing. And that is a testimony to the fact that Europe is a little behind the US in terms of building big companies. And so therefore, we didn't really have anyone, you know, rooting and, you know, educating. For crypto at the European level, we had something in France, you know, you had like in different countries, but Europe is this thing where you still have like countries that are very strong. And then these European regulators. So right now we're building something at the European level, SaaS. Our new public policy guy is actually spearheading that initiative and you know, we have a bunch of companies that are aggregating around us to do this in Europe. So that's the second thing that you do.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  And the third thing, we soon we're going to make an announcement around that, where we call freedom features. Something, you know, those features that you will see in the in ledger such as sort of full node or Tor directly integrated in ledger, that will guarantee people freedom. Because also, you know, what we're saying to the European regulator and us as a global company, seventy percent of the people on the planet don't live in democracy. So actually, the the regulation that we're fighting in Europe is sort of rich people's problem.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  In other countries, it's not rich people's problem, it's life or death type of situation. So we feel that people should have the tools to be free and to fight censorship.

• 19:18Anthony Pompliano?

  When you see a situation like in Ukraine, obviously, given the Russian invasion, it feels like that is one of many things that are going on in the world right now, where crypto obviously becomes much more important. It's obvious why there's a value proposition here. Have you all seen success stories of the self sovereignty or the hardware wallets of people in Ukraine? Or how do you think about that situation, given the product that you guys build and sold to the market?

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, we've seen, we've seen it. I mean, you know, for us, it was like sort of before, before the war, because with hardware, what it's the thing is like you should, you know, it's difficult to ship hardware in a, in a conflict zone. Okay, so, but before the war, you know, people maybe anticipated the conflict, etc. But our sales exploded, actually, both in Ukraine and Russia. And, and because of the war, then you have limitation when it comes to shipping, but definitely usage on the platform, you see it increasing. But we see, you know, every time that a country is in trouble. We see the need for self custody and people. And we see the need for crypto. So whether it's like, you know, with self custody or not, like there is a need for crypto.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  And Lebanon is also a very good example of, you know, a country where the theater is completely broken and the country is really suffering right now. And people are really going towards sort of crypto as a as a safe heaven. And of course, you know, we ship products in in more than one hundred and ninety five countries in the world. And we ship a number, a decent number of products in all of these countries. So so Ledger is is always here to to to to protect to protect value and to protect those that have the the the most to lose. So for sure.

• 21:02Anthony Pompliano?

  When you start to think about the products that you guys are are building and scaling successfully. You have a brand new wallet. And what's so interesting to me about it is not so much that it's a continuation of the security that you all have been providing. But it has specific features or specific kind of bend to also cater to the N F T community. Talk to me about the kind of specialization in the crypto market. So it used to be only thing available was Bitcoin. Then we got the smart contract platforms. Then we got the N F Ts, DeFi, and you kind of just go down the line. And it feels like now there are different types of assets, similar to the legacy system where you have stocks, bonds, currencies and commodities. How do you all think about that and why such a focus on the N F T market right now?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Look, first I would say that every web revolution happened because of hardware. You know, P C, iPhone. And then this one will be Ledger. Probably not in its current form, but in the future forms that we're developing right now. But when it comes to what we have now, you know, what you see with hardware. You know, Web three needs hardware because of security. This is what I said at the beginning. And so now what we start to see is, you know, when we started to all to work on this. We met a long time ago, you and I, but for me, it was two thousand fourteen. It was Bitcoin only. And then suddenly it was Bitcoin and Ethereum. And remember at Ledger, when this happened, like we had to adapt Ledger to, you know, the Ethereum phenomenon.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  And now, and after that, like, you know, so many coins, so many blockchains, so many tokens, so many things happening. And you have send and receive, and now you have staking and you have N F T, et cetera, et cetera. So us, our job is to support every community. Like, we don't, we don't choose. We don't root for one coin or the other. We provide the tools to the community so they can, you know, live their Web3 life. And we're trying to make their life secure and we're trying to make it easy to use. That's the job. And so the future, this hardware, Nano S Plus or the Nano X or the future of hardware will always evolve in the, in, to, to always be as secure and always easier to use.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  So, you know, sort of thing, bigger screens and so on and so forth. So this is what's happening right now. This is why we need to update the Nano S. Because Nano S, Nano S was designed in 2015, 2016, when it was Bitcoin only. So you didn't need a lot of space on the Nano S because it was primarily like a Bitcoin device. But now people have like tens of coins and, you know, tokens, et cetera. So you need a lot more space. So it was a long awaited upgrade. And people sometimes don't want the connectivity. So Nano X, you have the Bluetooth Nano X, you don't. So if you want to go mobile, you got your Nano X. And if you want something that is safe, that always worked, that has no battery, then that's your Nano S Plus.

• 23:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you start to think about how these markets mature, is there any thought process in terms of how this hardware will interact with things? Like if I have, let's say I had a huge NFT collection and I wanted to securitize or borrow against it or anything like that, does that change any of the criteria for kind of the hardware components? Or is that more so, nope, we do one thing and one thing really well is we secure this for the end user? And then if you want to have any of those financial services around, whether it's NFTs or other types of assets, you're going to take it out of the hardware device and put it somewhere else on a different platform to get access?

• 24:23Speaker 02

  No, so that was Ledger of, what you're describing is Ledger of 2017. The Ledger of 2022 has been designed as a platform, so specifically not to do this because then it becomes very hard to use. If your ledger is only where coins go to die, then it's not very interesting. And we've seen in the, recently that coins are always moving now, like you got DeFi, et cetera. So this is actually one of the main reasons for self custody. It's like now you can actually do stuff with your coins that you can't really do if you give them to a custodian. DeFi is one example, but there are many, many, many other examples that, where you need to be in control. And so what's happening right now is we build Ledger as a platform. Actually, you can check it out, it's developers.ledger.com.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  And so now if you're a blockchain, a coin, a token, if you're an app, like, you know, anything, people can code directly on the platform and integrate services into Ledger. You should check it out. Like, a lot of people have, you know, put their coins in the Ledger and then forgot about them. You should come back and check it out. Like, you can actually sort of buy, sell, swap. You have a Discover, of course, take. You have a full Discover section now. You have a bunch of apps that have been integrated. The most recent one is Zen Ledger. It's crypto tax tool support. So, super interesting. And so you don't need

• 25:48Speaker 02

  to leave the security and the comfort of your Ledger and Ledger Live experience. And you can just do all of this into Ledger. What we're doing too is like we're increasing the connectivity of your Ledger to Web3 services. So if you go to, and that's going to get like increasingly better in the next few weeks, next few months. Watch us. But if you go onto any Web3 value proposition right now, you should be able to log on directly with your Ledger. And so that's what we're doing for the community. Like, we're trying to really make things easy to use in one Ledger experience. Try to also stake your ETH with Lido. It's three clicks on your Ledger Live experience. Or do your Paris

• 26:29Speaker 02

  swap directly in Ledger Live. You know, this is the most secure way of doing those things. You're doing all of it in Ledger, and this is what Ledger has become. It's a developer's platform right now.

• 26:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's fascinating when you start to think about banks really were kind of a great business for a long time. There was so much stickiness from the customers. They deposit their assets, and then there's all these financial services that are created and sold to them kind of around those deposits. In some way, what you all have built is not exactly a deposit account, right, as you would see at a bank, but there's this self-sovereignty component. And whoever's custoding the assets or helping the individual custody assets has the opportunity to create this platform business, which sounds like exactly what you guys are doing. Is there one thing that you look forward, you know, five, 10 years, and you're like, hey, we really want to do X from a financial service standpoint or something with the hardware, but you're just not quite there, or the technology's not there yet, but you're really excited about it?

• 27:24Speaker 02

  I think our long-term view on all of this is, you know, we will migrate slowly from Web2 to Web3. I mean, if you think about Play2Earn, I mean, Play2Earn is just like...

• 27:36Speaker 02

  A better way of doing video games. I was with the Star Atlas team in the Bahamas last week. The game is pretty fucking exciting. I mean, you know, it's interesting what they have. And it's not just them, like, it's a bunch of games that are coming. And if you think about, you know, what people do with their computer or with their phone, like, they play. And now they can play to earn. So I think this is a fantastic space to watch. And so as I'm thinking of the future of our business, I'm thinking, okay, everything that is web two, and now we will go web three. Think about email, think about the cloud, think about, like, there are many applications that should be completed. Think about, like, you know, web messaging, like, you know, all of this should, think about Twitter.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  All of this should probably be sort of decentralized. And so once, once it is decentralized, the question is, where are the private keys? And so when I think about the future of web three, I'm thinking, okay, now everything becomes a private key. And so web three is going to need like a super device actually to, to exist. So Ledger will be that device and it will be your, your entry door into your web three. So what, what Apple and iPhone was to web two, I think Ledger wants to do it for web three.

• 28:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's fascinating. My last question for you. I know you're a super busy guy. One of our sponsors is Eight Sleep. They've got a thermo-regulated mattress that allows people to make it super cold, super hot. What's your sleep schedule? Like, given how much of a high performer you are personally and being able to run the business in the way that you do, do you have any sleep routines or tips for, for the audience around optimizing getting enough sleep?

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, I'm only a super performer because I've got the best team in the world.

• 29:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Good answer.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Me, I'm trying to, you know, minimize what I do and maximize the, the outcome. And so I really, you know, and I've done a previous company where I burned myself completely and I learned from this. And so right now, I'm taking time for my family, I'm taking time for holiday, I'm sleeping well, etc. So I don't, I don't just go crazy working like 18 hours a day. I think that's a, that's a waste of time, that's a waste of energy, and also you can hurt yourself, like, you know, and, you know, health, health, family, that's number one, and everything comes, comes after. And so me, you know, my, my sleeping schedule is, well, depending on what I do, but if I'm home and doing nothing, then, you know, I go to bed early and I wake up early. Like, you know, 10:30 I'm sleeping, I wake up at 7, that's my night. I stop my phone.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  After a certain time, like nine, I stop my phone. I don't care who you are. I was watching WeCrash the other day and like, you know, Adam was waking up in the middle of the night to talk with Massa. I mean, if Massa calls me in the middle of the night, he will never find me. That will never happen. I'm sleeping. And I sleep well. Like, I don't wake up in the middle of the night. I'm not worried, etc. So I sleep well, and that's my sleep routine. I just go to bed and sleep.

• 30:19Anthony Pompliano?

  We'll call it the anti-Massa phone strategy, right? Where it doesn't matter who you are, you ain't getting through if your phone's off. It makes a lot of sense.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  I call you when I wake up in the morning. I wake up early. So 7:00 AM, I wake up and then I start working. I text with Ian Rogers, etc., like we, with Shag Yime, the CTO. Like, we text like super early in the morning. And so the day starts early and finishes. You work from 7:00 to 9:00 PM every day. I think that's good enough. After that, I sleep.

• 30:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, makes sense. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Ledger?

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Okay, so I got a weird Twitter handle. It's underscore P Gaultier, so they can find me on Twitter. I just crossed 15,000 users, which is nice for me. I mean, I know compared to you it's nothing, but okay, I'll take it. So that's, that's the main way to follow me, I think, right now. Oh, and also on Telegram. I've got Pascal Gaultier on Telegram. They can follow me there.

• 31:12Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Listen, I appreciate very much you coming on. Obviously Ledger is the leader when it comes to hardware wallets. And anybody who's interested should definitely go check it out. My only piece of advice to folks, I don't give a lot of advice, but the only good one I got is make sure you buy it directly from, from the manufacturer. Don't buy it from a third party to make sure that you keep that super secure custody of your assets. So Pascal, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and...

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Can I ask a dumb question?

• 31:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, of course.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Are these your two brothers coming after me?

• 31:43Anthony Pompliano?

  They are.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Ah, okay.

• 31:45Anthony Pompliano?

  They're better looking, they're funnier, you know, but, but they are my brothers. I get to claim them.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Okay, cool. But next time, like, you know, if you want to, if you want to be consistent, you can call me Pascal and with your last name.

• 31:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Call you Pascal Pompliano?

• 32:00Speaker 02

  With pleasure, man.

• 32:01Anthony Pompliano?

  You could be honorary, brother. That's perfectly fine. We, we, there's five of us, so having a sixth, no one will even know. You just kind of just roll with us wherever we go and uh, and then it's like, oh, there's the Pomp Boys.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Exactly, man. And plus, I got Corsican roots, you got Italian roots. Like, it's fine. Like, it works.

• 32:18Anthony Pompliano?

  That's great. I've never had anyone ask me that before. That would be my favorite question. So you're in, you're in the club, you're in the family.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Sounds good, buddy. Talk soon. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more, and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.