#935 Adam Dell On Building Successful Fintech Companies

Adam Dell is the Founder Domain Money. He previously sold one of his companies to Goldman Sachs and is the former Head Of Product at Marcus. In this conversation, we discuss building technology companies, the viewpoints of legacy financial firms on Crypto, and how Adam and his team of 30 people from Goldman are building Domain Money to become the leading platform for managed funds in Crypto. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. ======================= The world's 2nd largest crypto exchange, OKEx, has dropped the "E" to become OKX, reflecting its evolution from a traditional crypto exchange to a comprehensive, cross-platform crypto services provider. With OKX's decentralized platform and Web3 wallet, MetaX, you have full custody over your crypto. Explore DeFi, NFTs and play-to-earning gaming with the world's most powerful crypto exchange. Visit OKX.com to learn more. =======================

• 0:02Speaker 00

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Adam Dell is the founder of Domain Money. He previously sold one of his companies to Goldman Sachs, and he was the head of product at Marcus. In this conversation, we talk about building technology companies, the viewpoint and perspective of incumbent financial firms on crypto, and how exactly Adam and his team of 30 people from Goldman have been building out Domain Money to be the leading platform for managed funds in crypto. I really enjoyed this conversation with Adam, and I hope that you enjoy it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  First up is LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest pool of crypto liquidity on the planet, underscored by 100% uptime track record through volatility spikes. They leverage LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology. LMAX Digital is the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading and custodial services. If you've never heard of LMAX Digital, it's probably because you are not an institution. They have no retail, only institutions. They feature a central limit order book, streaming spot Bitcoin, Ether, Litecoin, and Bitcoin Cash, all paired with US Dollars, Euro, and Yen. LMAX Digital, they're secure, they're

• 1:20Speaker 00

  liquid, and they're trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp. Again, LMAXdigital.com/pomp. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep is the single best product that I have purchased over the last three years. It completely changed my life. I'm not joking, pay attention. The Pod Pro cover, which goes over your mattress by Eight Sleep, is the most advanced solution on the market for thermal regulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. You can go to eightsleep.com/pomp to check out the Pod Pro cover, and you save $150 at checkout. They currently ship within the United States, Canada, and the UK. And I told you, it changed my life. It helps me sleep deeper, helps me

• 2:02Speaker 00

  sleep longer. I feel much more refreshed, and I have better energy. You want to know how I have relentless energy every single day? Because I sleep on an eight Sleep. Seriously. Go check it out. 8sleep.com/pomp today. This episode is brought to you by OKX. OKEX has dropped the E to become OKX. Founded in 2017 with a mission to deliver a cutting-edge crypto trading experience, OKX, the world's second-largest crypto exchange by trading volume, has since expanded its scope alongside the wider industry, adding features from all corners of crypto. If EX is about exchange, X is about intersections. Cross-chain, cross-functional, cross-platform, an interoperable future that's not siloed into isolated platforms and blockchains.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  The name change and the new look and feel represent OKX's ongoing move towards decentralized finance. With OKX's decentralized platform and Web3 wallet, MetaX, you have full custody over your crypto. Connect MetaX in your browser or within the OKX app to explore DeFi, NFTs, and play to earning gaming with the world's most powerful crypto exchange. Whether you're just learning about crypto, you're a seasoned DeFi DJ, an NFT enthusiast, or a pro trader, you're all invited to a better future. Go check it out today and let me know what you think.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  All right, we've got Adam Dell joining us. Adam sold his last business to Goldman. He ran as head of product the Marcus product over there, which is their big fintech platform, and left less than a year ago to start building out a brand-new business. So, super excited to talk to him. Adam, how are you? Oh, great. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Let's start with, you're sitting inside Goldman Sachs. They bought your business. You become the head of product at Marcus. Like, do people think that they can compete against the fintechs? Is it like, oh, man, this is an uphill battle? What's like the mentality inside of these kind of incumbent financial institutions at the intersection of their core business versus like more of a technology-enabled market that seems to be, you know, very, very popular with? With investors and also users.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  You got to hand it to Goldman Sachs, you know, not having a meaningful retail business and moving headlong into a fintech bank startup inside Goldman Sachs was a bold move for Goldman and it's really paid off. You know, the deposits in terms of AUM, the number of customers, the Apple Card, their distribution deals with GM. They really kind of knocked the cover off the ball and, you know, I being an entrepreneur always sort of thought about

• 5:06Speaker 00

  large companies as the sort of slow moving behemoths that didn't really innovate very much. But Goldman Sachs with Marcus really has done quite a good job. Yeah. When you think about actually building that, how much of it is, hey, we need to go compete outside with these like fintech companies? Versus let's think about what we uniquely can bring to the market and just layer technology on top of our unique advantage. Like is it competing and being forced by the external forces? Or is it more something being driven by the internal advantages? Yeah, it's a bit of both. I mean, one of the reasons they acquired my business Clarity Money is that we had developed a

• 5:47Speaker 00

  set of technologies that gave consumers a very useful way to manage their money. And they recognized that that tool coupled with the credibility of Goldman Sachs layered on top of the the offer that they made available to retail

• 6:05Speaker 00

  consumers, both in terms of the interest rate on deposits and the rate they charge to borrow on the lending side of the business was was very compelling and that combination turned out to be right. You know, if you if you use the product today, Marcus, it's very slick, it's very intuitive. It delivers a lot of value independent of banking or, you know, borrowing or lending, excuse me. A lot of personal financial management tools that retail investors and. And bank customers find very useful. Yeah, when you're sitting there, obviously, Marcus has had incredible success across the industry. People look at it as kind of the light on on the hill, right?

• 6:47Speaker 00

  In terms of how an incumbent business can go and play in this kind of fintech space. At some point, you decide, hey, maybe I'm gonna leave. Is it driven by like, all right, I've kind of squeezed as much economics out of this place. Let me go do it again and hopefully to buy the next one. Like, what's the general thought process as to when you, as an entrepreneur, know I should stay? And I should keep building, you know, inside of a place like Goldman versus like, okay, now I think it's time to go leave and start another business? Yeah, well, I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've started five companies. Clarity Money, which Goldman bought, was my last. Domain Money is my current business. I left Goldman because I saw a real opportunity.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  You know, I spent three years inside the bowels of our banking system messing around with the roughly 100 ACH networks that make up our global payment system and was shocked by how inefficient they are. I understood that at an intellectual level, but I really experienced it at an operational level when I was working on Marcus. And that really led me down the path of exploring blockchains more carefully. And, you know, the average ACH transaction takes two days and costs $2 to settle. And while to the consumer, it feels relatively straightforward to buy your latte and swipe your credit card and move on with your day.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  The back end of that process is incredibly inefficient. There are blockchains, Anthony, out there, as you know, that can do the same transaction in two seconds for a 40th of a penny. And if you look at the inefficiencies in the current system and the relative gain opportunities from the technologies emerging out of blockchains, it doesn't take long to figure out what a big opportunity is out there. And the other thing that really struck a chord for me was just the engineering activity. If you look for a startup focused On banking technologies, you can't find one that isn't doing stuff in blockchains. It's just, there's no energy there outside of the crypto ecosystem.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  And so the engineering community, which is really the, the driving force of innovation and where we're headed, is, has voted with their feet and, and what they voted on is blockchains. And so to me, that represented a very exciting opportunity and why, why I started Domain with roughly 30 of my colleagues from Goldman, who joined me when I left the firm. Yeah, it, it's fascinating to kind of think through the psychology of it. You obviously saw the problems. Do you do a bunch of market research or like walk me through as a serial entrepreneur? Like, how do you go about evaluating, okay, I've got 20 good ideas, but are they actually great ideas? Is it worth starting a company? What's the actual addressable market? Like, what does that process look like for you? Yeah, I like that question because I have a good answer for it.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  So we did about 10,000 consumer surveys where we really got into the head of different personas around investing in crypto, investing in, in this new asset class. And what's really clear is that you have, you know, a very powerful early adopter crowd that makes up, you know, in large part, you know, maybe your audience, Anthony. But there's a much larger segment of the population out there that recognizes that, you know, crypto is, is here to stay. It's a big deal. They don't really understand it. They want to make it part of their portfolio. Don't really have a good way to do that other than guess. And guessing is not a great investment strategy.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  And so we saw an opportunity to come to market with a set of portfolios that we've curated and managed through our investment team that spends every day thinking about which of the blockchain technologies and opportunities are the most interesting from an investment standpoint. And we've come to market with, you know, managed portfolios. You press a button and we'll buy a basket of assets for you and we'll manage those assets over time. That's a, you know, a pretty compelling. Value proposition from my standpoint, I'm obviously biased because I built the business around it. Uh, but to answer your question, you know, I, I see very clearly a real disconnect between these technologies and consumers experience.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Let me explain what I mean. You know, the average consumer can touch Amazon, touch Disney, touch Tesla. But it's very tough for the average investor out there to really get their head around what is Solana, what is Cardano, what is Ethereum, what is Polygon? What are these technologies and which ones are likely to win? And so I think there's a real need in the market for a solution like the one we offer, which is we have an investment team. We stay very close to the developer community. We really watch these protocols carefully. We look at uh transaction activity, economic utility uh relative to alternatives. And we make our bets based on those, those parameters. Got it. And so when you are surveying those people, how are you doing it? 10,000 is a lot, you know, in the eyes of most people.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Are you just running paid ads or how do you get this information uh to be able to really build your entire business off of? Yeah, we use services like Qualtrics and user testing, which are businesses that are designed to uh enable max diff studies. Uh, and to really get into uh, you know, the mind of, of the retail investor. Um, you know, one of my favorite things about the brain is that, you know, if you ask the brain a question, it, it furiously starts working to come up with an answer. Because you know, you asked a question, well, if you ask a question, there must be an answer. And you know, I love market research and consumer research that is much sneakier in its approach to teasing out intent.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  And you know, one of the things that I really love is behavioral finance. Before I started uh, uh Clarity Money way back, I spent about a year studying uh Condonman and Thaler. Dan Ariely, who joined our advisory board at Clarity Money, really getting inside the head of what does the consumer really think about, these be their money? And it's a fascinating um, um area of behavioral finance, uh or behavioral economics, excuse me. Because money is such an emotional thing. It's really a reflection of a person's self-worth. Uh, and so there's a lot of interesting dynamics uh about how people think about and approach money that are a little bit irrational. A little less intuitive than you might expect.

• 13:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's fascinating to kind of think through this. My brother Joe, who's got some questions here in a second. He interviewed Mark Lor at one point, and Mark was talking about the idea that even though he's had multiple successes, he still gets turned down sometimes when he goes out to fundraise for various reasons. People are at the end of the life of their fund. It's outside of a sector they're interested or whatever. In your fundraising process, was it just everyone just poured as much money in as you wanted? Or like, how does that go for something like this where it's very related, although a little bit different, but very related same industry where you've had a lot of success in the past? Yeah, I'm a little bit fortunate and unique as an entrepreneur in that, you know, this is my fifth rodeo,

• 14:01Speaker 00

  and I've had very consistent investor base for each of my endeavors. You know, it turns out if you end up making money for people, they tend to want to back you again. And so, knock on wood, I've been very fortunate in my career and in the various things I've started that they've worked out pretty well. And so I have a track record of figuring things out. And so, you know, fundraising for me, at least historically, has been relatively straightforward. I send out my deck to, you know, a short list of folks that I've worked with in the past. We have a little bit over the terms and pretty quickly, you know, settle on a transaction and then get busy getting to work.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  You know, the fundraising is really not the thing. It's the building and it's the doing and creating that is the thing. And so I like to spend much more of my time and energy focused on that rather than thinking about fundraising. Yeah. One of the things that I also find interesting is as you started building this business, you basically have ridden what I'll call the exuberant wave of crypto, Bitcoin, etc. Everything was running up, hitting all time highs. Now we're in more of kind of a corrective phase. Some people think it's going to be a true on bear market. There's concerns around interest rates and some of the macro stuff. How did you as an entrepreneur think about, you know, do you worry about macroeconomics? Do you worry about interest rates? Do you worry about the price of the assets? Or do you just keep your head down and build like?

• 15:27Speaker 00

  What's your approach here? Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I mean, the trends and the data that I pay closest attention to is the economic utility that comes out of technologies, right? So, you know, the speculative nature of crypto and the euphoria around this opportunity set, you know, certainly quite possible that the market has gotten ahead of itself. As you think about the hype curve, right? You sort of have this, you know, expectation of utility and then sort of the trough of disillusionment, which is sort of like, what's really going to be here? And then over time, it slowly, you know, grows and fulfills its promise.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  And I think that, you know, Web 3 and blockchain, Metaverse, and all these technologies that are emerging out of this effort among a very small engineering community, if you really look at it closely, we're very early in this cycle, right? I mean, there are, you know, roughly 27 million engineers across the whole planet, right? That's every iPhone, that's every, you know, EZ-PAD, you know, RFID thing that you swiped when you drove in your car, you know? That's all the engineers, right? Every data center, everything in the cloud. There's 7 million Java developers globally, okay?

• 16:49Speaker 00

  The entirety of the blockchain developer ecosystem is probably 25,000 developers total. That's tiny. And then if you look at the underlying technology stack of the various protocols out there and what have been built, it's very, very early in this game. And so there's enormous economic promise yet to be fulfilled. And the things that we focus on are, you know, the volume of transaction activity that are happening on various protocols, how fully developed the stack is of some of the underlying projects out there, and what is the relative economic utility of that compared to its alternatives? Like, look at Ethereum for just a moment, okay?

• 17:32Speaker 00

  Clearly, the, you know, grand poobah of winning the developer game and bringing more people. Into the ecosystem, you know, last year Visa did, you know, roughly 10 trillion in transaction volume across their whole network. Ethereum alone did 11 trillion. And so if you look at the economic utility of the Ethereum network relative to the number of years it's been out and how how long it took to develop, you see enormous promise in these technologies. I think we're very, very early in, you know, the utility of these protocols as alternatives to things like ACH networks coming to fruition. And so despite the current volatility and interest rates and

• 18:14Speaker 00

  headwind from, you know, macro environment outside in the market, I'm much more interested in what is the long term utilities of these technologies and those have yet to really fully be realized. Yeah. My last question, and my brother's got some for you, is when you start thinking about the various strategies that are employed via this kind of managed platform, how do you guys evaluate what strategies to pursue versus not? And really, that's a proxy, I think, for like, what works and what doesn't work in the market, right? Obviously, I'm assuming you want to offer things that are are best suited for users. But what's that process look like? Yeah, we've put together a number of portfolios with our investment team. So our investment team

• 18:56Speaker 00

  comes out of Goldman Sachs, Bridgewater Associates. We've crafted baskets of assets. One of our strategies is called Domain Edge, and it's really meant to be, you know, broad exposure to the crypto asset class, you know, press one button and okay, you've invested in this asset class, you've made an allocation across your portfolio. You don't need to worry about whether or not, you know, any one of these individual investments needs to be, you know, switched out because we're going to handle all that for you. We've also put together a strategy around the metaverse because we believe there's enormous opportunity there. And speaking about both of those strategies,

• 19:37Speaker 00

  our broad thesis is around infrastructure. To my comments earlier around ACH networks and enabling economic utility, our focus is on the

• 19:47Speaker 00

  Fundamental building blocks of enabling these technologies to deliver utility in the market. We're not interested in chasing hype or momentum or, you know, sort of meme coins. We're focused on what is the core function this technology does? And how valuable will that be in the market? As we think about product market fit, the size of developer community, the token economics, the relative alternatives in the market and how those technologies compare to those alternatives. Those are the things we focus on.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Makes complete sense. Joe, John, what questions you guys got? Yeah, my question would just be around how you think this evolves over time. I think most people probably understand the platform itself after your description and so forth. But how do you guys think about just the total addressable market? Is this something where every kind of retail investor today is going to have exposure to crypto and kind of the digital atmosphere or something else? Just talk me through kind of how you think about that.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, again, you know, there's the, there's the crowd that loves to delve deep into, you know, what's going on on this layer one project? What's going on in this layer two project? You know, happy to kind of dive into those things. And then there's a much larger segment of the population that might be an E-Trade customer, a Fidelity customer, Schwab customer. They have their equity portfolio, but they don't have a crypto allocation. And they're looking for an intelligent way to do that beyond just, you know, an ETF, right? They want somebody to actively manage their crypto investments for them. That is a massive market that we think is relatively untapped. And, and so we're unique in that in terms of our offering.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  You know, long term, our ambition is to be a full service, financial services provider to mass affluent retail investors. We plan to offer a crypto rewards credit card, the ability to borrow against your portfolio, a deposit account, you know, we are, we do have the ability to accept deposits. We're FDIC insured and so we're putting the building blocks in place to deliver, you know, all of the things that someone would need around their financial life. But, you know, startups don't fail for lack of ambition. They fail for lack of focus. And so our focus today, you know, being a very young company and very early in the market, is manage portfolios to give investors access to crypto in a very

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Intelligent, diversified way. Adam, can you talk about how you guys reweight and how often you guys reweight these portfolios? Yeah, we are constantly evaluating the allocations of the underlying assets and the strategies and balance them regularly. Adam, when you start to think about the users themselves, how much of these portfolios are you seeing allocated to crypto versus other assets? And then do you see crypto as kind of a entry point to eventually get other assets that they may be investing in? Or is it just stay, you know, ironclad focused on crypto and kind of just go deeper and deeper there with more sophisticated managed portfolios?

• 22:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll listen to our customers over time. I could envision Domain offering other alternative assets on the platform over time, whether that's real estate or other alternative investments. But again, you know, as a young company, our focus is on, you know, our core value proposition, which is managed portfolios, giving people access to crypto, you know? If you, if you guys step outside of the, you know, crypto ecosystem that you're so deeply steeped in, which is an interesting, fascinating, dynamic, rapidly growing one, and you sort of just walk down, you know,

• 23:28Speaker 00

  Main Street of, you know, Middle America, you ask, you know, what's your crypto holdings and what assets are you interested in? You know, you kind of get a very bewildered look on your face, you know, in response, because people are confused by these technologies. As I said, they're so removed from their day-to-day lives and experiences, yet they do recognize that they should have an allocation. And so were the answer to that allocation. Yeah. And so when you start to think about this, really the parallel in my mind, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong here,

• 24:07Speaker 00

  is Kathy Wood and ARK, they have kind of managed ETFs that give a specific type of investor exposure. What you all are doing is kind of with the technology layer, doing something very similar. What are maybe some of the things that you can learn from, you know, those parallel attempts in kind of other capital market structures? And then what are some of the things that you guys have identified from like a risk standpoint? That you want to use technology to help avoid. Yeah, one of the things we've developed internally is a tool to measure many, many different signals that make up the health of the underlying assets. I mentioned the developer community, we follow GitHub submissions, we look at the number of connections

• 24:49Speaker 00

  among developers, among projects that we think are particularly credible and interesting. So we stay really, really close to the developer community and watch what we call signal. Do Kwan is on our advisory board, we're big believers and fans of what he's doing and his efforts with Terra. And so, you know, if anything, I would just say that what we've really learned is that being close to these underlying communities of developers that are actually doing the work of building these technologies is the thing that we focus on. Yeah, it makes complete sense. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Domain Money? Domainmoney.com.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  You can also find us in the App Store if you'd like to download our app and try it out. You know, it's a really been quite a fun adventure. We've been in market for just about 100 days. We have nearly 10,000 users that we've amassed in that short period of time. So we're growing quite quickly. You know, really delighted with the response we've received from the market. You know, excited to continue to build out this platform. One of the other things I would say is that there's a very rich repository of content that we've developed. We've done a lot of fundamental research, why blockchains matter, what's the difference between an ETF and an actively managed portfolio to your earlier question.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  We've really done a lot to try to educate the customer about what is the value of these technologies? And what is the value of a managed portfolio? And so, you know, our objective is to hold the hand of our customer along the way and educate them about what we're doing every step of the way. You know, our mission as a company is to build our customers' wealth. And so you'll find a lot of content and resources. To help, help, help us do that. Yeah, I've got three kind of rapid fire questions for you that are a little bit more fun to end this thing. First is, uh, David Solomon, DJ, uh, Soul there. You, uh, are you spinning any, uh, spinning any beats on the weekends as well or gone to any of the concerts? No, that's not really my jam.

• 27:04Speaker 00

  All right, sleep schedule. Uh, one of our sponsors is Eight Sleep, which is like, uh, allows you to, uh, thermo regulate the bed. And I sleep like a baby with it really, really cold. What's your sleep schedule or nighttime pre-sleep schedule? Well, my routine is I read before I go to sleep. I find it incredibly efficient way to ensure that I read a little bit every day and that I don't waste time trying to fall asleep. So, you know, whether I read one page or 30 pages, I know I'm going to read and I know I'm going to fall right to sleep because nothing puts me to sleep faster than a, a, a complex technical book that is late in the evening. You know, that puts you right to sleep. That's my sleep schedule. I love it. And, uh, and then my last question is behind you on the, uh, kind of the imagery.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  You have a, uh, what appears to be an older, uh, kind of old school banker, uh, who's laying on the ground. It says, no one took Bryce seriously, not until they saw his domain money account. What's off with the, uh, with the imagery? We're just playing around with a little bit of nostalgia and some of our creative. We have a whole series of ads that, uh, are playful and nostalgic of this era. There's some thinking behind it. Most of our customers, our average customer is 39 years old, uh, and they're squarely, you know, mass affluent, uh, uh, you know, individuals.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Uh, and, and, and they're, you know, uh, of, of an era that is nostalgic for the, you know, sort of eighties, nineties kind of look and feel. And so we're playing around with a little bit of that with our, with our creative. And so that's, that's why I threw this up this morning or this afternoon. Yeah, that is, uh, that, that's awesome. I love it. I, I think that the like eighties and nineties, uh, Wall Street vibe needs to come back for sure. So I can, I can appreciate it. I don't know if you have one more question. I just wanted to wrap up by saying I really appreciate an opportunity to be on your, on your program. I really am impressed by and amazed by what you

• 29:06Speaker 00

  guys have built and just the, the, the activity of creation, particularly, you know, in a connected world where we have tools that enable anyone to create a platform for themselves and sort of reach a large audience with their message and their ideas is, is one of the great things about technology. There's, there's things that need to be managed about that on the other side of it because misinformation, but, but you know, I really, really am impressed by what you guys have done and just want to tell you how much I appreciate the opportunity to spend some time with you today. Listen, we're super impressed by you as well. And as you guys continue to build Domain Money, we'll definitely have to bring you back. I think you've got some unique insights, not only as a serial entrepreneur, but also having spent that time at Goldman. And around here, we like

• 29:50Speaker 00

  to joke about bankers quite a bit, but I feel like Goldman, out of all the banks, they've navigated many, many technology cycles over the years. And so they continue to be at the forefront of a lot of this stuff, which is, which is cool to see. So thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me again. Appreciate it. All right. See you later, buddy. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com

• 30:34Speaker 00

  to learn more and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.