What If Closure Never Comes? | From A Slight Change of Plans

Helena joins Maya Shankar on her show, A Slight Change of Plans from Pushkin to talk about her story: what happened, how she questioned and re-questioned her decisions, and how she found peace within uncertainty. Find A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts, and here: lnk.to/SCPPersonally

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet.

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• 0:34Speaker 00

  This is a CBC Podcast.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Hi, Helena here. I am back in the personally feed today to bring you something a little different. I recently had a conversation with Maya Shankar for her podcast, A Slight Change of Plans. And it's a show where she explores how we handle unexpected change and how we can better navigate these moments of upheaval. And during that interview, she said something that shifted how I look at the decision I made. And this is not something I thought was possible after three years of working on Creation Myth and two decades of mulling over the kid question. So I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do, too.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  The certainty I had was absolute. I don't want that. There was not a grain of doubt anywhere, you know?

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Radio producer Helena de Groot spent the majority of her life assuming she would never have kids. But as she got older, people's criticism of that choice started to intensify, and it left her unmoored.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Even as I was saying, no, no, no, I don't want kids, on the inside, I thought, there has to be something wrong with me for not wanting that.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  On today's show, Navigating the Road Less Taken.

• 2:11Speaker 03

  I'm Maya Shankar, a scientist who studies human behavior. And this is A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  When Helena was young and imagined her future, she pictured an apartment in a big, exciting city, a cool job, and weekends dancing at nightclubs. Children simply weren't in this picture, which wasn't an issue for Helena until she was in her twenties.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  I loved talking to strangers. I'd sit on the train or on the bus going somewhere, and I would just start talking to the person next to me. And they'd be like, "Oh, you know, what are you doing?" And I was probably still at university. And they're like, "Oh, what are your plans after?" And, you know, like, "Do you want kids?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, I don't think so." And I said, "I don't think so," because I'd never thought I would do that. But every time this stranger, whoever they were, men, women, middle-aged, older, 30, you know, they would push back so hard. And they would say some version of, "You're making a mistake. You're going to regret this.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  You're missing out on the greatest love that exists." So I think it's just in response to that that I became much more militant. The reaction is sort of what turns my "uh, I don't think so" into a "no," you know?

• 3:51Speaker 03

  What were the reasons you found yourself giving to others about why you did not want kids?

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think, okay, so on the outside, right, I said no pretty consistently. But one of the things that made me unsure on the inside was the fact that if someone asked me why, I could never come up with a definitive answer. And my answer also changed depending on the day, you know, depending on how I was feeling or what I was thinking about most that week. And so I always felt like I was lying a little bit, you know, because I would say something like, "Oh, you know, like, I don't think I can combine that with the kind of, you know, poorly paid work that is most interesting to me." Or like, "I think I want to travel more."

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Or, "There's like a lot of mental health issues in my family, and I don't want to pass that on." Every reason I gave, I knew was not the reason. But it becomes calcified, like... Once you believe something about yourself, you find evidence for it everywhere. And so it made it hard for me to trust myself.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  Yes. Well, I think what you're describing illustrates that there is something very curious about the way we engage with this topic. How interesting is it that the burden of proof, if you will, the burden lies on the person choosing not to do something versus choosing to do something? I have so rarely heard someone ask anyone I know, or me, why do you want kids? The default assumption is, of course, you should want kids. No justification needed. Go forward. We, as society, will celebrate you. And I don't know if that's true in other domains, right? We would ask someone like, why are you moving to this other country? Typically, we interrogate action of some kind, proactive decisions.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  And yet, this is one topic, this is one area of life that seems to be immune from that kind of scrutiny.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  And marriage might be another example of this. Well, of course, you want to get married, right? There are just certain social norms where we simply don't question that the default should be yes.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  I think you're absolutely right, that that is in general how it is. This said, I think for me, I would respond with just that question. Oh, tell me, why do you want kids? You know? And it wasn't really to be like contrarian or to hold up a mirror, you know? It was really just more like, oh, I am curious, though. Tell me, why is this something you feel so strongly about? For instance, with my best friend, Sigrid, who I met when I was in my early twenties, you know, we weren't at all ready to have kids. Like, none of my, none of our friends were at all in that stage yet. But she knew for certain that she wanted kids. And so, yeah, she would push back.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  And she would say, but, you know, you have so much love to give. And like, I think you'd be great at it. But I would ask her and probe and, and, you know, push her to explain herself just as well, you know? Like, it was really very mutual. She already knew back then that she wanted to be a journalist, not exactly the best-paid field or the most stable. So I would also ask her, like, are you not afraid that you just won't have the... You know, that it won't be possible logistically to be a journalist. You will need more money. You will need to be at home at more regular hours, you know?

• 7:30Speaker 02

  And like, aren't you afraid?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  I just always felt like, once you have a kid, you have like an open wound, you know? And you have to trust the world. That's hard already, to be good to this open wound, you know?

• 7:47Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And it's interesting, too, that you mention, you know, people say you have so much love to give. You'd be such an amazing mom. There's lots of things that each of us would be amazing at that we choose not to do.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  And especially love. Like, that argument that I wouldn't get to experience, like, the greatest kind of love. That's how everyone would put it. It was like a hierarchy, you know? The best one. That kind of shook me the most, you know? When people would say something like that.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  What did that do to your conviction? Did you question yourself? Did you think, oh, my God, is there something wrong with me? Did you think, I have to figure out a way to get comfortable having kids? Walk me through how you would respond to that kind of feedback.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, I would absolutely land on the question, what is wrong with me? That is always what I concluded, you know? Like, there has to be something wrong with me for not wanting that. And this was not entirely baseless, you know? Like, one of the things that I found so astonishing about this decision to have kids is that you don't know what you're getting yourself into, you know? Like, you can read about it all you want. You can read an entire library of books about having children. You can talk to everyone you know who has children. You will not know what it's like for you to be a parent until you do it, you know?

• 9:17Speaker 02

  And so the fact that people were doing it regardless, I thought was so brave. And I always felt like I lack that bravery. Like, I'm a little bit of a control freak. You know, I get really knocked off balance when, ah, I don't know, there's like some last minute change, or like, all of a sudden, someone suggests sort of like an impromptu trip. Or I'm always like, oh, no, no, if I don't have like advance warning, like, I'm not gonna do it, you know?

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  And so I think that is what I thought about. You know, is the fact that I don't want kids, just another example of me being led by my fears.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  And so that's why I thought, even as I was saying, no, no, no, I don't want kids, on the inside, I thought, there must be something wrong with me. And I want to change that. Is that possible?

• 10:12Speaker 03

  So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is, you knew, and so many of us know, we're told this time and time again, that parenthood is a transformative experience, right? It's impossible to predict who you'll become on the other side of parenthood. And I agree with you. I think there is a lot of bravery involved in taking that leap. But what I'm hearing you say is, I wasn't willing to gamble on that transformation.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Right?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yes. And I didn't like that about myself. I knew that I was missing out on a lot of good life by saying no to things almost by default, which I did, do you?

• 10:56Speaker 03

  So I want to fast forward to when you're 28. You have this whirlwind romance with this guy named David. You get married very quickly. You're very candid about the fact that you don't want kids. He understands that that is your reality, that is your preference. Several years into your marriage, you find yourself staring at a positive pregnancy test. Bring me back to that moment.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Even before I did the test, I knew. It was very, very early.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  There was just something different about my brain, you know?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  It's as if like all the hard edges of my cells had been filed down. And so I saw the result and I wasn't afraid. I wasn't shocked. It was confirmation of what I knew was true. And it was just such a...

• 12:02Speaker 02

  There was a kind of blank in my mind. Because

• 12:09Speaker 02

  by that time, David and I had been fighting so much for years about this topic. Because I told him that I didn't want kids.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  And he had accepted that. But then very quickly after we got married, he started trying to convince me. And it was sort of light at first and then ever more insistent, you know? As we both got older, as he started thinking more about

• 12:36Speaker 02

  what is the point of life? You know, he started asking these really big questions. And for him, the answer was clear. The point of life is to have a kid. And so he became ever more insistent. And, and he pushed me so hard that I had to push back very hard. And so I hardened, you know? I had become so inert. The certainty I had was absolute. I don't want that. It was almost like a fight that isn't a fight because you're not really having a conversation. You're just standing there entrenched in your positions. And then I got pregnant. And it was such a

• 13:17Speaker 02

  reality check. Like you can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program, you know? And so it became all of a sudden a very different thing. It became like it was no longer abstract, you know?

• 13:39Speaker 03

  Tell me what it was like to tell David this news.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  The moment I told him.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  I could see that he was trying to be a good man about this, you know, that he like, he said, like, you know, oh, you know, and of course, you know, this is your decision, you know, like your body, your choice, like he said that literally. But his face said something completely different. He was like holding his hands in front of his mouth as he like, oh, and I could tell sort of between his fingers that he was just all lit up, you know? He was so immediately suffused with happiness and wonder and amazement and gratitude.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  And so in that moment, I felt like my attempt at rationality, you know, like, let me go through the rubric one more time, like pros and cons, and let me then make a decision and then inform him, like, it made no sense. And I just thought, my reasons or my resistance or my fear, it doesn't matter. I, I felt like he was connected to some truth about life that I didn't understand. And so I felt like, well, if he feels it, and everyone says that as soon as you have a kid, you love them, like, you would take a bullet for that kid, you know, like, you are transformed.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  I was like, I mean, probably that will happen, right? So in that moment, I just thought, I think I just have to give up just standing so firm in my conviction and just go with this incredible moment. So I, I said, like, okay, you know, let's do it.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  Tell me about the first week of your pregnancy.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  The pregnancy immediately transformed me in a way that I didn't even know was possible. I, control freak, you know, easily anxious. I was calm and I was optimistic, you know? Like, usually, like, I can really get into such a doom spiral when I open the newspaper, you know? Like, I cannot get it out of my head that everything is getting worse and will only get worse, like. There are no brakes on my anxiety.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  And I'm sorry to interrupt, but I've heard you say that when people would tell you, Helena, you will love this child so much, your experience with these doom spirals and the fact that you have a history of depression has led you to say, exactly, and so if I were to love this kid so much, why would I subject them to this life, to this planet?

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. That was so strong. Like, either they will have depression too, right? Because it's hereditary. Or they will be fine, but they will have a depressed mom. Okay, also not great. Or they will not be depressed. My medication will continue to work. I will not be depressed. And still, there is all the stuff that's no one's fault. You know, just sickness or ordinary misfortune.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  And given that backdrop, then how extraordinary for you to feel the opposite during this moment.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  I felt so capable. I really, you know, usually I feel like, wow, the world is so big and you have so little sway, right? Like, what can you do? You can hold a sign and go protest and you can like, you know, vote. It's so ridiculous how little power you have. And then I was pregnant. And it was almost as if my shoulders got broader and my back got straighter and my feet seemed like more firmly planted on the floor. And I was really like, bring it on. I can protect this child. You know, sure, the world I cannot change, not in the way that I would like.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  But I can make a home that's safe and loving. And I can give them the strength to face this world, you know, with integrity and bravery and love. I can do that. There was a way in which I didn't recognize myself, but I love this new self. And I was like, if the me who has the child is a me who can do it, then what's the problem, right? The me who doesn't want to have a child is like, she doesn't exist anymore. So we don't have to worry about her anymore, you know? This new one is totally capable.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  So what happened next?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  You know, there was something a little...

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Sad about feeling so great. Because I was like, wait, this is how a lot of other people feel all the time? You know, like, they feel like, oh, life is a gift. And, you know, every day is another opportunity to do something beautiful, you know? And, um, and sure, things are bad right now, you know, politically. But, yeah, you know, maybe by the time my kid is growing up, you know, things will be better and we'll have a more beautiful society. I was like, wow, people, there are people who go through life like that? Yeah, duh, that they would want to have a kid, you know? Of course.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  And so when I felt that way, I thought, okay, welcome yourself. Thank God for this change. I'm not going to dwell on the fact that I've not always had this. I'm just going to run with the fact that I have this new chance. I have this new lease on life, you know? And I can be the person who is fit to be a mom. And then, and then that changed. This feeling of competence and calm, I think, lasted for about two weeks. And then there was like a steep cliff.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  It just, the hormones changed or I don't know what happened, you know? I felt, yeah, like my brain was back to how it always is. You know, I got afraid again.

• 20:21Speaker 03

  After the break, Helena makes a decision that changes everything. We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

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  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

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  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

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  That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  In 2002, Ryan Wedding was an Olympic snowboarder at the top of his game.

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  Ryan's style is really gunning in gold.

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  And in less than a minute, it slipped away. But he continued to chase the high.

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  Ryan James Wedding. He controls one of the most violent drug trafficking organizations in this world.

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  I'm Michelle Shepherd, and from CBC Podcasts and The Toronto Star, The Most Wanted Olympian. Available now.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Helena's first week of pregnancy was not at all what she expected. She experienced a lightness, a newfound confidence about her ability to parent children in an uncertain world. But that sense of peace and hopefulness didn't last. And she found herself questioning, again, whether to go through with the pregnancy.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  You know how like when you do drugs and you're having such a good time, and then the next day, it's almost as if you have to pay for it? You know, like the

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  The size of my happiness is now the size of my like, ugh.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  I appreciate, I appreciate that you think that I've done drugs.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  I've never even had alcohol. So that's what you're working with here, okay?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Great, okay.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  But I can appreciate intellectually what you're describing, the come down.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, the come down, exactly. It was almost as if I had a come down. You know, the hormones left, and I wasn't just dropped into my previous anxious self.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  I was dropped into like that Helena on overdrive.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  Wow, so you were totally catastrophizing, almost in an irrational way, right? Your brain was, yeah. Full on rumination, OCD.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  Intrusive thoughts.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  What did you decide to do now that you felt you had reverted back to old Helena? With old Helena's preferences, but actually magnified. Because of all the anxiety and all of the intrusive thoughts.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think I've, I've ever been as terrified. Because it's like

• 23:28Speaker 02

  before

• 23:31Speaker 02

  when I was just thinking about it, right? Before I was pregnant, it was like, I don't want to have a kid, you know? It was about me.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  But now I was so acutely aware of my decision will affect not just me, but this new person.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Am I equipped?

• 23:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  You know, this feeling of like, oh, I'm capable, right? Like my feet are so firmly planted in the soil. I can, I can take care of this kid. That was gone and I felt my own powerlessness to protect them.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  And I really thought this is

• 24:11Speaker 02

  you know how like, I'm always so moved when something terrible happens, whether that is like a grandparent dying or you know, war being declared. But then you see the parents, how they try to shield their kids. And if they cannot shield them, still try and create a little pocket of normalcy. Like parents swallow their own fears and repress their tears so that they might give a safe pocket for their kid. And I felt.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Incapable of doing that. I thought, I am terrified myself.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  I will not be able to repress my fear so that I can make sure my child is not afraid. I'm not going to be able to do that. And a child deserves better than that. A child deserves a parent who can protect them.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  So I decided to have an abortion. And I had such mixed feelings, you know, about having an abortion myself. It really wasn't something I did lightly.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  And especially because I knew how much it would hurt David.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, as you know, I have a whole chapter at the end of my book devoted to my own journey toward motherhood and then slightly away from motherhood and all of the complexities. And I I do think society tells us we should always try to conquer our fears. And I think there are truly limits

• 26:01Speaker 03

  on that. And I just, I just think that fear is instructive.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  Right? Your fears were valid and instructive. They were saying, Helena, I have a history of depression. I'm having acute anxiety. I'm not sure that I have the right emotional constitution to be a parent. And I think there is actually something deeply brave in surrendering to that reality rather than resisting it, given how strong the forces are to try and, quote, conquer it, resist it. So

• 26:42Speaker 03

  yeah, I just want to say like the

• 26:47Speaker 03

  The recognition of one's own limits is another form of bravery. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  It's so moving to hear you say that.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  No one has ever put it like that. And I definitely have never thought that. I've always seen it as a version of capitulating, of giving up.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  But, you know, it's so often said, right? Like, well, what if you had a physical disability? Like, what if you had Huntington's disease? Would you chastise yourself in the same way? Would you be like, ah, it's just, you know, if only you wouldn't give up, you know?

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. If you were missing a uterus, you wouldn't

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  engage in the kind of self-ration. I just think we have an unfair standard when things creep into the psychological.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  Then we think, oh, it's a totally malleable space. You can fully control your thoughts. You can fully overcome this. This is a workable problem.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Psychology is biology, you know?

• 27:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's constraints.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  And I just feel like, wow, if your mind can be so reality-shaping, that is reality. Even if it's not other people's reality, it is for you.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. How did David respond to your decision to terminate the pregnancy?

• 28:21Speaker 02

  David is not someone who talks about his feelings a lot. I mean, he will tell me, like, I want to have a child, but there's not like that deep introspection. And so I could see that he was

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Struggling. I could see that, you know, he wasn't eating properly anymore. And he wasn't like, he's usually like always ready for an adventure, you know, very kind of embodied, you know, would always be like on his bike or surfing or, you know, ju- just so full of joy and, and, and, you know, lust for life, you know? And that just started eroding. His shoulders started getting hunched, you know, his complexion was gray. He was losing weight.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  It was really as if like the light in his eyes was being dimmed, you know? It was so terrible to see and I felt guilty.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  I also felt afraid to sort of push and probe because I knew it was because of what I had done. You know?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  And it's horrible to hurt the person that you love the most. But then he took like a turn for the better, you know? He started taking care of himself again, started eating, started working out. He, he was back, you know, and I was so happy. I really thought that was such a hard period and we've come through it. And he, and, and he's probably sort of made peace with it. And rediscovered like how much good there is in our relationship.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  And that's when he told me. We were lying in bed one night and he, and he, I, I, seriously, we had just had a party. I was so happy, you know? I really thought like this is a new chapter, you know? What can possibly shake us now if we've survived this? And then he told me, like, I can't do this anymore. I know that I want to have a kid. I have to go try this. I understand that you don't want it. Like, I see now that I will never be able to convince you. I have to go try.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  And that was it. We were in New York. He took the plane to California, where he's from, the next day. And that was that.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  Not everyone has had to face this kind of incompatibility, but I think there's probably so much that's universal about this, where there are trade offs and sacrifices and tensions in any relationship. And I wonder what it felt like for you to lose this relationship.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it shattered my world, you know? I thought we had come out the other end. I thought, wow, we're so strong together now. And all of a sudden, he was gone and I was alone. I was so angry with myself. Like, was it really worth this? You know? Like, this stupid stubborn decision? This fear? Really? More important than being in this relationship with this person that you love so much and who loves you?

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  You know? And I just, after that, I was so determined to get to the bottom of why? And to get to the bottom of, do I have to accept who I am? You know? Can I change? And it's not like I was thinking, can I? I want to try and want to have a child. Like, it was not like that, you know? It was just more like...

• 32:26Speaker 02

  You know how like sometimes you can just be so tired of being yourself, you know?

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Of course. This is such an interesting part of your story, Helena, because what I've what I've observed from this windy path that you've taken is your repeated willingness to challenge your own convictions throughout this journey. And I know there is such an exhaustion that accompanies indecision. It feels so tempting to just, you know, we had a professor on A Slight Change of Plans who talked about how exhausting decision making can be and how we actually often defer our decision making to others in an effort to eliminate any of the psychic stress that comes along with decision making.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  And I wonder, there would have been such a simplicity in you just, you know, planting your flag and saying, from the time that you were 21, right, when you started getting asked this question, I'm not going to have kids. What gave you the energy to keep the interrogation alive?

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Do you see yourself as someone who is open minded in this way, who's open to seeing their belief shift?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Hmm. I'm thinking of the best way to answer this question. There are a few things here. One of them is I have this conviction that if only I throw enough effort at a thing, I will be able to get to the bottom of it. Also, like, you know, I'm a very curious person. I've made curiosity my job. I'm always talking to strangers and trying to find out, how do you live? How do you deal with pain, you know, and despair? Where do you find beauty? And, you know, I've been making radio stories for like 15 years.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  I've talked to, I don't even know how many people, thousands probably. And always, the real question that I have, no matter what we talk about, you know, whether it's like civil war in Myanmar, or it's like a poetry collection, you know, about someone, you know, falling in love for the first time. My real question underneath everything is always, how is it that you want to keep living? What is your recipe? And I haven't found the answer yet.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Because there is no one answer, obviously, you know? But I feel like if only I have a whole library of answers,

• 35:11Speaker 02

  I will be able to do it. Which is such a joke because

• 35:19Speaker 02

  I haven't found the answer yet, but I am doing it. So clearly, it's some kind of illusion or, you know, like a story that I tell myself, you know? But it's the story that keeps me

• 35:36Speaker 02

  that keeps me looking and that keeps me alive.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  It's been many years since you and David ended your relationship over this. I'm so curious to know what your thoughts are on the topic of motherhood today.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. First, I'm so happy with my decision. I really, I love the life that I've built, you know? And I have finally realized that you can be happy with your decision not to have kids and still wonder sometimes, what if? And still have that ache sometimes. Like, would I have loved this more than my current life? And I have come to a place of peace with that. Like, not every

• 36:29Speaker 02

  moment of doubt or not every moment of ache

• 36:36Speaker 02

  means that you have to like throw throw everything away, you know? Like, you can actually be like, every life includes things that, you know, I have a little sting in them, and that's okay. And I think because of that, because I'm at peace with my decision not to have kids, I am more than ever

• 37:02Speaker 02

  In awe of parents, crazy about kids. You know, my friends are having kids now. You know, like my closest friends are all starting to have kids.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  And I cannot tell you, Maya, how happy it makes me that I get to be a part of that. Like, I'm not their mom, you know? But I am someone to them. And I am someone to their parents, you know? Like, one friend calls me Auntie, you know? Which is so sweet. I didn't ask for this, you know?

• 37:36Speaker 03

  I know.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And some of them, it's not like they have a name. But I get to, you know, hear about the most intimate stories, you know, of like, the insanity that they feel when they're awake at, you know, 4:00 a.m. with their kid, not having slept for months, you know, through the night. And the dark thoughts that they have. I feel like they see me as a safe person. You know?

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Who can uniquely be there for them, given your outsider lens. Yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  And it feels like such a privilege to be there for them. I still get sad. You know, one of the things that makes me sad is, so I love languages. I speak a few. And I've always wanted to be there for a kid's language development. And the thought of having had a bilingual kid, you know, like, oh, I won't get to see any of that. And that makes me sad.

• 38:39Speaker 03

  What do you do with that sadness? So, do you interrogate it? Do you let it resurface this question as an open one yet again? Do you sort of have a lid on it and just say, okay, I'm feeling sad, I'm just gonna let the sadness pass. It's a feeling that's gonna coexist with my choice. What do you, how do you think about engaging with the sadness when it comes?

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I'm actually grateful for the sadness now.

• 39:13Speaker 03

  Wait, tell me more.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Like before, the sadness would like throw me off balance and make me think like, I must be wrong about everything, you know? And now I think, no, the sadness is born out of curiosity. It's born out of love, out of empathy, imagination, you know, it's a sign of all these beautiful things. You know, like it's not a, it's not a, it's not a, oh, défaux, how do you say it? Do you speak French? Like it's not a.

• 39:45Speaker 03

  You think I do drugs? You think I speak French? You really overestimate me.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Maya, you are, you are so talented. You know everything else. So like, sorry that I just hit on the two things that you don't know how to do.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Like, oh, like it's not a character flaw, you know? Like, there's nothing wrong with me for having pain. It's, it's, it's a sign that I'm alive, you know?

• 40:09Speaker 03

  And that you can have complicated emotions about a decision.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that I can see the beauty in something that I haven't done. That's okay, right? Imagine that everything we haven't done, you have to then sort of pretend as if that's the only good way to live and everyone else is wrong. Like, ugh, you know, that would be not great.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  So many of the conversations I host on this podcast are about the fact that we as humans so desperately seek cognitive closure. We want black and white answers. We want definitive, clear explanations for things and reasons. And like you said, the pro con list that fully computes. And it is very uncomfortable for us to live comfortably in the gray space. And from what I've gathered from your story, you were searching for that definitive answer for so long. It's why you were on this crazy roller coaster where every peak and valley was what's wrong with me? And how can I, can't I just figure this shit out, right? Like, can't I just figure this situation out?

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 03

  And yet now, when I hear you talk, you've clearly experienced an evolution of sorts.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 03

  Which is you have found peace in.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  Basically knowing the answer, but not 100% knowing the answer. And so I would love for you to share any wisdom or advice you have for listeners who are like, I want to get to the Helena place mentally. Maybe they're deciding between taking a new job or leaving a relationship or moving to another country or any other massive life decision. And they're the type of person that is worried about feeling massive regret in either direction.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the furthest that you can get is to get comfortable with discomfort. Like it will be discomfort forever. I don't think comfort is the thing that you should look for. You know, I think pain is there forever.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  And hopefully you can make the pain a little smaller and a little less, you know, earth shattering, right? Where every time you have to go back to the drawing board, you know?

• 42:28Speaker 03

  Was there a moment in time that you can remember where you first realized that the path forward would not, could not involve full clarity? But would need to require some, at a minimum, low grade discomfort all the time?

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, it was in conversation. So I made this whole podcast, right? Eight episodes, I worked on this for three years.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  And the stated purpose of this podcast was, I'm going to figure this out and put the issue to bed once and for all. That was it, you know? It was like, oh, I cannot stand doing this for the rest of my life. You know, like there are other interesting topics in the world, right?

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  And. For this podcast, I talked to so many people, people I knew well, people I didn't. And it was actually someone I didn't know well, who got me there. And it was, I think, because they didn't know me well. You know, like,

• 43:36Speaker 02

  they didn't have a stake in my life at all. You know, they could sort of say it as it is.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Because that's not a thing that people like to do. You know, they like to protect your feelings and they like, you know, especially people who love you, right? And what he said was, "You will be disappointed either way." And I laughed. I was like, oh, that's, you know, like, I'm with you. Like, that's sort of the glass half-empty kind of way of looking at life. Like, I share that. But he was like, "No, no, no, no, no. This is not like, this is not a glass half-empty situation. This is reality." Here's the thing he said.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  "We only get to live life once, but we get to question it

• 44:18Speaker 02

  as much..."

• 44:19Speaker 03

  Up teen times.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Exactly. Infinite number of times, right? There's no limit to how much we can question our life, but we can only live it once. And it was like that,

• 44:30Speaker 02

  like, it's all, you know, like, anything that is like so wise, you know, it sounds completely obvious the moment that you hear it, right?

• 44:39Speaker 03

  It has to land at that particular moment.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:41Speaker 03

  When someone's ready to receive it. Sounds like you were ready to receive that.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  And I think it showed me that I had been asking the wrong question.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  You know, the question that I had been asking was, "What do I want?", you know? And I think the question that I

• 45:03Speaker 02

  should have been asking is, "What can I live with?", you know? And those are different, like...

• 45:10Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  One has like a definitive answer, like, "I want this", you know? But like, "What can I live with?" Is sort of like acknowledgement that you can want different things. You can want things that are mutually exclusive. You can want them all. And maybe you want one more and one just a little bit, you know? And so you just have to...

• 45:36Speaker 02

  This is also what I came to, like...

• 45:41Speaker 02

  You can waste your life doubting. You can really do that forever. And that's not a way to spend your life. So I think for me, that feeling of peace, right? That I have reached. It's a decision. It's not something that like, oh, I woke up feeling one day, you know? It's a decision to do every day again, you know? And like every day that I have, or every time that this little like, ooh, ouch, you know, I'm missing out on this. Every time that that comes up, I feel it. I let it envelop me. And then you're like, OK, I think I can live with that.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  Hey, thanks so much for listening. Helena made an eight-part podcast series called Creation Myth about her decision of whether or not to have kids. We'll link to it in the show notes. And join me next week when I talk to Professor Sonia Lubermirsky about how we can feel more loved in our lives.

• 47:05Speaker 07

  Most people think to feel more loved, I need to change myself. I need to make myself more lovable. Or I need to change the other person. I need to convince them to love me more. But it's actually not the right approach. You don't have to change yourself. You don't have to change the other person. You just have to change the conversation.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  That's next time on A Slight Change of Plans. I'll see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me, Maya Shankar. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner, Alexandra Garretson, our editor, Daphne Chen, our lead producer, Megan Lubin, our associate producer, Sonia Gerwitt, and our sound engineer, Erica Huang. Louise Skara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there. And of course, a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  That was my interview with Maya Shankar on her podcast, A Slight Change of Plans. You should check out her other conversations. They're all really good. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.