Creation Myth: Life After Memoir

Avery Trufelman interviews Helena de Groot about the making of Creation Myth, and how it transformed some of the most important relationships in her life. Including special guests! Also Helena introduces the next season of CBC’s Personally, it’s called Discount Dave (and the Fix) and episodes one and two are coming on June 10. Want to stay in touch? Follow Helena on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/helenavelikaja/

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  This is a CBC Podcast.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  Hi, it's Helena. If you've listened to Creation Myth, I am so glad you did. And I've been happy to hear that I am not the only one who's tortured herself for decades with the kid question. There will be a new memoir soon on CBC's Personally called Discount Dave and the Fix. I'll tell you a little bit more about that later. But first, I want to share a conversation that I had about the making of Creation Myth. It's a recording from a live show I did for On Air Fest with my fabulous colleague and friend Avery Trufelman. I sat next to her onstage in a flamboyant red sequin vest and answered every one of her burning questions,

• 1:23Speaker 02

  and maybe yours, too.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  Okay. Thanks, everyone. Thank you for being here. This is so cool.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  Thanks for being here, Helena. So can I do a little informal survey? How many people have heard Creation Myth? Yeah, okay, we'll do a little bit of introduction and stuff, but this is gonna be one for the real heads. I have so many questions for Helena that I've been like writing down and waiting. And every time we have coffee, I'm like, I'm gonna save them. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk about the process of making this incredible, incredible show, and we have some special guests as well. But for those who haven't listened, I'm so excited for you. I wish I'd never heard Creation Myths so that I could hear it for the first time. You're gonna love it, really.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  It is, how would you describe your podcast?

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Can you believe it? I've worked on this for three years. I still do not have like an elevator pitch. Okay, it's supposed to be about forty something woman who is finally faced with sort of the closing door of should I have a kid or not? That is sort of how it starts. And then it goes off the rails and goes into such things as like, what is the meaning of life?

• 2:58Speaker 03

  And it goes on these amazing tangents. It kind of breaks every rule of audio in all these like interesting ways. I kept listening and being like, I didn't realize you could do that. I didn't realize that was possible. There are so many intimate moments in your life where you're just recording yourself, talking to yourself, saying your like most intimate thoughts out loud. Was that something, is that something you do? Is that just a part of your life? Did you develop this as a practice afterwards? What was that like? What was up with that?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Well, I do send and receive a lot of voice messages with friends, you know? So that's great because then you have tape. But that is not why I do it. It's just because I hate typing and like I like the human voice, you know? But the talking to myself, oh yeah, definitely. That is not something I generally do.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  That was because of the show?

• 3:52Speaker 02

  A little bit. I mean, but you know,

• 3:56Speaker 02

  I started the show because I was very confused. Like, my husband had just left me because I had, you know, because he finally figured out that after eight years of trying to convince me that I didn't, I really was not gonna change my mind. I didn't wanna have a kid. And then he left and I was so angry with myself, like, oh, good job, you know, with your decision, that you've now lost this person that you loved so much, you know? Was it really worth it? And I was so, like, irritated that I didn't even really know if I had made the right call or not. Like, wait, you made a pretty big sacrifice for this thing that you don't even understand. Like, maybe think about it, you know? And so that's why I started.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  It was like a way for me to journal and figure out what I was thinking without having to type.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  But there are like no experts in your piece. Why?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Oh, a very conscious decision.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Why?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  This is actually such a deep question because it's like, I don't wanna get all like, what's an expert? You know? But it is, right? Like, who's an expert on my life? Like, I can go talk to someone who's a really big degree, but like, they don't know me and they don't know like my family history and like, why is this depression thing something that I'm worried about? Like, what am I gonna, you know, do I have to tell them first my entire backstory before they can give me something demographical? You know, like, that didn't seem useful to me. And I don't like being lectured to. I don't like when people like explain things to me. Do you know what I mean? Like, when someone already knows and then they tell me about it?

• 5:43Speaker 02

  No. I like discovering things with someone or on my own, you know? And so I, I just wanted to not know what I was making and not know why I was doing what I was doing. And that was more interesting to me, you know?

• 6:00Speaker 03

  That's true. I didn't realize this until you said it now, that so much of the podcast is like hearing people have revelations in real time that they didn't even know that they thought. So how did it feel making something that you didn't know what you were making? I can't imagine that was like a very comforting feeling.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it helped that I had a contract and a deadline.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Like, I couldn't chicken out, which of course I often wanted to, right? Like, often it really seemed like, oh, but this is not coming together. And I don't actually know what I'm doing. Also, like, how do you? There's so many things that don't work about a story about not having kids, you know? One is like, it's not a story. Nothing happens. You don't have a kid, you know? No, but think about it, like, you know, if, because a lot of people are like, oh, and then at the end, you do have a kid.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  That's what I thought would happen.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  And that's the better story.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Even though I know you, which is insane.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  But, okay, so narratively, like, nothing happens.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  So narratively, it's not great. Nothing happens, you know?

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Well, something that the podcast does so nicely is it really captures true ambivalence. And something that I think is so interesting about the word, you know, it means ambivalence, like, of two valences. Like, you feel two ways about something, like, you love it and you hate it. And I think, you know, to show how uncommon ambivalence is in our society, we use it to mean apathetic. We'll be like, I'm ambivalent about it, meaning, like, you feel nothing. But it means you love and hate something, like, you want and don't want. And I thought it was so powerful that part of the journey was, like, getting deeper into your ambivalence. And so, another thing I wanted to ask is, like, are you still ambivalent about the question?

• 7:50Speaker 03

  Or are you more resolved about the question of whether or not to have a kid?

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Well, a friend asked me this, not long after the show came out. Like, I think maybe even before the show came out, but it was done and she was talking to me, and she said, so where are you with this decision now? And I thought it was a funny question, because I was like, you've heard the show. You know, I'm, yeah, I'm in a good place with it. Like, I've put this issue to bed. That was also one of the reasons that I wanted to make the show. I was like, oh, my God, I've spent two decades, like, thinking over this question. Ha, I want to think about something else. So I made it, and then I could put it there, you know? And she was like, so, okay, but would you, what would happen if, Brendan, you're...

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Beloved, if you were pregnant and it was his kid, like by accident, you would get pregnant.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  Right, and you didn't have to move to California.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yes, yes. And I just, like, she asked me that question and I felt like as if she punched me in the gut. I did not see this question coming and I was shocked by like the immediate, like, physical flooding of warmth through my body and this certainty of like, oh, I actually don't know if I would have the strength to say no, the strength to not have this kid. Because I, oh, how do I even talk about this? Like, this is so weird also, I'm so sorry, Brendan.

• 9:36Speaker 03

  I don't think it's that weird. I feel like that's the thing. I feel like you've paved the way for ambivalence in talking about it.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  And that, in a weird way, talking about the resoluteness and the absoluteness, which you've had to fight and be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And like, that's what's considered logical. That's what's considered normal is to pick a side. And you're sitting in the ambiguity. You're like, I, I don't know, and that's a reason not to, you know?

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that is sort of where, well, I was shocked that she asked the question, but then she was like-

• 10:11Speaker 03

  I'm glad she did before I did, oh my god.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  But she was so, and she was like, how can you not have asked that question yourself? You know, and I think that is a good point. I just never thought about it. And then when I gave that answer, she was like, Helia, I love you. I love that, like, you stay open, you know? But it is not, like, I think it is, again, that I've gotten more comfortable with not knowing, that like, my whole identity doesn't sort of depend on white knuckling, I don't have a kid, you know? Yeah, I prefer my life now this way, but like, how do I know anything about what's gonna happen, you know?

• 10:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  What would have happened, do you think, if you had made the series in Dutch?

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  Because your sister and your mom speak fluent English.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  I know them. You could have interviewed them in English, but you chose to interview them in Dutch.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  So, why did you do that? And what would have happened if this was a Dutch program?

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Hmm, I can answer the first one very easily. And the second one, I'll just...

• 11:18Speaker 03

  You can think about the second one while you answer the first one.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, well, I interviewed my mom and my sister in Dutch because it would be so weird not to. Like, that would be like we're putting a little costume on or whatever and having a conversation, you know? Like, you know, like in school or whatever, you know? And you have, I don't know, Spanish class or something. And you have to turn to the person like sitting next to you and be like, "How was your weekend?", like in Spanish.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  How was raising me?

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can't... It feels unnatural. You're not yourself. No one is themselves, you know? And so, it's not about like, what level of English do they speak? But like, what is our language? Because we don't speak Dutch. We speak our Dutch. And it has like our, like, you know what I mean? The way that in every family, you have like a little your own words and inflections, or what do things mean? So like, it had to be that language. And actually, my editor was like, "I don't think you should because they speak English." And I was like, "No, I'm not debating this." And like, she was great. And I took like almost all of her suggestions. And if I didn't, we had long discussions. But this was like, "I'm not even debating this." Like, no, I'm gonna interview them in Dutch, you know?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  And my executive editor, Chris Oak... Veronica Simmons is my editor. She's so great. Chris Oak, also lovely. He was like, "Actually, I think it's so interesting because then you can edit... Like, you're A, you're forced to listen to what... Like, with my mom, it was like a very sensitive conversation about like how hard it was to raise me, you know? But like, I was not gonna hire someone to voice my mother. That's as weird as talking to her in English. So, I wanted to do the translation myself. And Chris was like, "Yeah, that's great." Because that kind of forces you to listen with a level of detail.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  That might help you, actually, as a person and as a child to, you know what I mean?

• 13:12Speaker 03

  To have to translate.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  To have to translate, yeah. And to be like, what is she actually saying? Not like, what do I think she says because she always said, you know, the way we do to our parents, you know?

• 13:23Speaker 03

  That's true. It's like in couples therapy, they make you like, repeat what you say.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's that, yeah.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  Wow. So it did help?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Tremendously. It was really profound, actually, to sit with her words in a, in a, in a way that I had to just become her, in a way, you know?

• 13:46Speaker 03

  So what would, what would this piece be like, what would this whole series be like if it were Dutch, if it were made with like, whatever, N R C or something?

• 13:55Speaker 02

  I think, this is so weird, but I think I'm less funny in Dutch.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know why that is. Like, you speak several languages, right? Like, I feel like I've become a little bit of a different person in every language. Like, in French, I'm so arrogant, you know?

• 14:10Speaker 02

  And, and I feel like in English, I'm the most sort of, you know, quick-thinking version of myself. Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  That's interesting.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  I mean, do you think that, like, the topic would have changed at all?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  God, this is so, it's such a, I can't even, yeah. It's so far, too, you know? Like, I haven't-

• 14:32Speaker 03

  But you never considered it?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Never considered it. Oh, God, no, no. Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  That's really interesting.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, my life is here, you know?

• 14:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini. That's g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 15:20Speaker 04

  Hi, I just had to tell you that I think your podcast has changed my life.

• 15:26Speaker 05

  Season one of Sold a Story hit a nerve. It was about teaching kids to read. We have gotten this wrong in New York. In all across the nation. Now we're back with a new season. This time we go beyond reading.

• 15:39Speaker 06

  I've literally been told by my district that I should not be teaching math. I should be facilitating math.

• 15:46Speaker 05

  I'm Emily Hanford. Go to your podcast app and follow Sold a Story.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  So, speaking of your life here, how did those engineering lessons with Brendan grow? Did you, how was your engineering on this, on this story? Did you do any of it?

• 16:04Speaker 02

  No, so Brendan was luckily my actual engineer, which I'm so thankful for.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, the, the, the, the chance to get to work with like your, the person that is like your romantic love can really go a couple of different ways, right?

• 16:27Speaker 02

  And so I was nervous. I think we both were a little bit nervous, you know?

• 16:32Speaker 02

  But it was so beautiful. Like, actually, I was telling a friend about this, you know? It's like, wow, we really worked on this together with so much. Like, it was so moving to see how much he cared also. Like, there were no other people on the planet who cared as much about it as the two of us. And like, it kept us up at night, but like, it was so rewarding then, you know? When it turned out and we just, you know, hit on these lucky accidents and, you know? And someone was like, that's like having a kid together, you know? And I think it's, I don't want to, I hate making those comparisons. Also, I'm not the one to make them, you know? But that person was a parent, and so I feel like I can repeat it.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  But I, I do think that it is very intimate to make something together that you both contribute to and that both of your, you know, your fingerprints are on. And now I just want to do it again. So we're figuring out how we can make that happen.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  Should, should we, should we have Brendan come up? Should we ask him some questions? Come on, don't act surprised.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  Brendan Baker, everyone. A, a subject, and, no, no, no, this is where you sit. No, no, no, you're here. Come join us. Yeah, yeah, you have to sit, sorry. Um, hi Brendan.

• 17:55Speaker 07

  Hi.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  So Brendan is not only in the show, but also the sound designer. Or not sound designer, you're the sound designer, sorry, I want to ask you about that. But engineer, mixer master. So I have to ask, what was it like mastering yourself as a, as a character in the show?

• 18:16Speaker 07

  Like one of those tapes of the two of us talking to one another?

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 07

  Uh, well, I mean, just, I really trusted Helena's choice in to like how to use that tape too. Like, a lot of those recordings happened very early on in our relationship too. And there was, I think, kind of a jumping off the cliff feeling for me of like, well, let's see what happens with our relationship and also let me be open to this question too. So it was a real like, I am going to trust this person that I'm getting to know and, you know, see where it goes. And I'm really touched that you were able to work that into the show too. But it, it eventually became the kind of thing where like, just like in daily life, we would be like making breakfast or something and then we would start talking about something

• 19:02Speaker 07

  and then just kind of like I would turn on the phone and kind of just put it right there.

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Oh, you initiated.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, not that one, that first conversation, but yeah, yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 03

  I mean, what was it like to hear your story of your first meeting from Helena's perspective?

• 19:15Speaker 07

  Oh, well, I've gotten used to that story. She tells it better than I do. Because like for me, I'm like, from my perspective, it's like a story of a man being very clueless. So it's much better from her perspective. And, well, but there was like a sort of editorial question around this too because, I don't know, can I talk about?

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, please, yeah.

• 19:36Speaker 07

  So like, early drafts, I would listen to it and I'd be like, this Brendan guy? I don't buy it. Like, I don't really like-

• 19:44Speaker 03

  It's too good to be true.

• 19:45Speaker 07

  No, it's just like, it's just like, I, like, I'm curious more about, it was, it was sort of a complete like, imagining of me, I was trying to imagine what an, an audience member who doesn't know anything about this person, like, how would they actually best see that person through your eyes? And so I was like, I think I need to hear a lot more about what you were feeling and what you were experiencing and not just sort of like, objectifying me.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  I totally did that.

• 20:18Speaker 03

  Make me a real character.

• 20:24Speaker 07

  And, you know, that cut both ways too, like when she writes about David, I fall in love with David a little bit. And, um, and so then I could tell you like, oh, I think you need to, you know, go further in this direction and.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that was so helpful.

• 20:41Speaker 07

  What was that like for you though?

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that, you know, because initially, of course, I felt a little like peeved, you know, I was like, what are you talking about? This is my experience. It is already through my eyes, you know, but you're right, that I was actually describing it, you know how like, I feel like beginning writers often talk about their feelings a lot, but they don't actually allow you to feel the feelings because they're not describing the scene, they're not describing what do you, what do you see, what do you feel, what is the, what are the stakes, you know, they, it's just like, oh, and I was so in love with him. Like, that's not a, it's not gonna make anyone else feel that, you know? And a little bit, I was doing that. And so it was very good advice that you were like, where is, who is this guy? And why should we care about him, about you?

• 21:27Speaker 07

  He's very skeptical.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 07

  But that's also just my psychology. I'm very skeptical of myself.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  But then it was nice because then I was like, at some point, I realized what he was, you know, that you were right, and I had to do this, you know? So then I completely went in that other direction and just be like, really sort of.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Let's describe the eyelashes.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, yeah. And also just like the way that I went to the kitchen and be like, okay, Lena, be normal, be calm, and like putting my wrists under the cold, cold water and stuff, you know, and like, like.

• 21:57Speaker 03

  That's a fun tip.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Or like this, you know?

• 22:01Speaker 07

  When you wrote that draft though, I was like, yeah, show don't tell. Like, that's so showing.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yes, but I think at that moment you became embarrassed and then I thought, great, I've done my job.

• 22:12Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:14Speaker 07

  And I still feel that way, but that's okay.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 22:16Speaker 07

  Well, I mean, I'm, I feel comfortably embarrassed.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  I mean, so why didn't you want the pseudonym that Helena first proposed for you?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Do you remember when initially you were like, oh, I don't know if I want my real name?

• 22:33Speaker 07

  Well, you know, the fact that we both work in radio, like, and I have like my own separate career and, and I think I was a little bit hesitant at first, like, I wasn't sure how, how much I could be in this story, or should be in this story, like, it's yours and I didn't want to detract from the spotlight on you at all. But at a certain point, I realized, like, I didn't need to hide either, like, you were out there, you know, telling this really incredibly vulnerable story about your life and your experience, and I'm like, you're the person I love, I can do that too.

• 23:13Speaker 07

  And it was a way of, I don't know, feeling supported in our relationship, but then also the thing that we were making together, so. It was a way of like not hiding, you know, I guess.

• 23:25Speaker 03

  Okay, but do you remember the pseudonym?

• 23:27Speaker 07

  Oh, I don't know.

• 23:29Speaker 03

  Say it, Helena.

• 23:31Speaker 07

  I will not say it.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  I will say it, Adonis. I chose it.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Why didn't you want to be Adonis?

• 23:37Speaker 02

  I chose it, you know? Yeah, and this is so terrible because like-

• 23:42Speaker 07

  Honestly, honestly, after hearing the pseudonym, I was like, okay, fine, I can act like I'm not.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  It's a really good tip to-

• 23:54Speaker 02

  That's all I feel.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  Produce honesty.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  You threw my eyes, I mean, you are-

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Okay, but on a serious note, you know, because you talk about how this wasn't really, you know, the decision of whether or not to have a kid wasn't something that you really talked about in your circles before, it wasn't like the guys are getting together and being like, should we get a mastectomy? And I wonder, um-

• 24:16Speaker 03

  What this project changed in you and your perspective?

• 24:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, I mean, for me, it was mostly about, I mean, it also was a chance for me to explore that question on my own and with my therapist separately.

• 24:34Speaker 07

  But it was also sort of a, it became the same question of like, what do you want to do with the second half of your life? And, you know, wanting to be in a, in this relationship and, and see where that took me, it was like, this is what I'm doing, I'm being in this relationship, you know?

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Thank you, that's so beautiful. I'm gonna ask Helena some more questions.

• 25:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, okay.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 25:01Speaker 07

  I'm gonna go back over there.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  Be free, Adonis. Thank you.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Okay, so having Brendan up here reminded me, like, the sound of this story is so unusual, and you were the sound designer. So much of it, like, I think, what is it, episode three just opens up with the sound of like, clanking dishes. There's like, amazing music throughout. I guess, on the clanking dishes note, what was the role of like, atmospheric sound? And how did you collect it? Yeah, well, because there are like, children playing all around, there's all this like...

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, texture.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  Texture, yeah.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  The thing at the top, like, every episode starts with like, a little scene, you know, like, sounds that are not words or, or music, you know? And that was because you come out of an ad, you know? You have like, pre-roll.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  You want to give them time to fast forward.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  No, it's not even that, it's just like, you, they've done this loud ad that's like, over compressed, and it's like, they're trying to sell you something, and I didn't want to go from that into my show, I wanted like, a little palate cleanser, you know? So like, a little time for people to sort of arrive in the show. So I thought, okay, you know, I, actually Brendan, I talked about it, you know, like... How can we do that? Should we have like music at the top? But that feels so, come on, like, we're not patient enough for that, you know? So, yeah, the the ambie was a way to do that. And then it became really fun to be like, okay, what ambie leads into the first scene that you're actually writing then, you know, or the first thing that happens?

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Um, and the most fun I had was with the peeing one, you know?

• 26:45Speaker 03

  Were you actually peeing?

• 26:46Speaker 02

  No, I got it from the internet. Sorry. There were some that I recorded, but that one, I, you know, I, yeah, I'm not just saying that because I would be embarrassed, you know, I think we're past that point.

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna say, it's a little late to be embarrassed. And I also want to ask about the music. How much of it was homemade and how much of it was found?

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Oh, none of it was homemade, except for those parts where like we talk about improvised, like that is explicitly said, you know? But everything else, yeah, it's on APM, where I spent, oh my god, so much time. And I love it, right? Like, I'm pulling this face, but you know I love it. But it's just more like, I think APM is like a great place to start and then...

• 27:33Speaker 03

  It's a sound music, it's a music library.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry, yes, yes, yes, music library, yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  And it's, it's, no shade to APM, but like, it's kind of hard to find the good stuff. You found really good stuff. It's very difficult to do.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  It's endless. There's so much stuff. So I would really spend like hours finding one track. But one of the ways that I like to work is by layering tracks, you know? So there's that scene, yeah, like, yeah, at the same time. So like, there's that scene where I'm really depressed and I've like, tried to commit su- this is so weird, to just be a quickly, okay, but like, I've tried to commit suicide, I've taken too many pills, I'm at home hallucinating. And the score underneath that is multiple layers of music so that A, they can be dissonant together, and B, they can sort of... Slide out of each other. It's almost like you have a slow-moving stack of dishes that's falling, you know, at different rates.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  That's sort of the feeling that I wanted to have. Like, the wallpaper is moving and it's at a different rate than, you know what I mean? There are shadows coming behind the curtains. And I think, like, layering music can do that in a way that one single track, however ominous or whatever, could never.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  So you really nerded out about the sound design.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  That's so, it's very like Nabokov. There's like this whole other level to it, you know? Like, you can listen to it just as a story, but you can also listen to it as like a literal sound piece.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I like that most people don't notice it. You know, I mean, like and don't like, you know what I mean? Like, it makes me very happy when someone who is sort of in our industry and knows what it takes, you know, will comment on it. But I also, like a friend of mine said, that when the sound design is doing its work, people often don't know it's there. They just feel like they did that work. They were feeling that feeling because they were interpreting it in a certain way. It's like, no, I made you interpret it in that way, you know?

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Okay, that was my first part of What to Ask, but can we bring up our other surprise?

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  Surprise guest? Would you like to announce who our second surprise guest is?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  So my parents are both here, but my mom is the only one who is in the show. So, do you wanna? Holika.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  You were so amazing in the show. I know I said this to you before and you were like, ah, fish posh, but...

• 30:06Speaker 03

  So, um, how was it for you hearing Helena's perspective on her life?

• 30:16Speaker 03

  It's a privilege when you have a daughter in a fortress and to be, to hear her so intimate. I think there are no other parents who are present in the

• 30:31Speaker 03

  That kind of conversations she has with a partner. Or having that thought. And sometimes as a parent, you said, I want to be a fly on the wall. Well, I was one.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  So how did doing this podcast impact your relationship? I think she can ask that, answer that.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was very scared, actually, for our conversation. Because, you know, mothers and daughters, that's complicated. A daughter who was depressed since she was 10, you know, more complicated. And then moved across the ocean and started a life where, you know, we see each other like once, sometimes twice a year. Again, more complicated, you know? So like, there was a lot of hurt between us. And I really was scared about what talking about it and sort of pulling it all into the light and saying it all, you know, what that would be like. When I started working with my editor, Veronica, she was like,

• 31:41Speaker 02

  oh, I'm so excited for the conversation with your mom, you know? She's a mom. She was just like, ooh, and from a narrative perspective, you know? And I was really like, yeah, I don't know if we need that in the show. I think we can, you know? And she was like, you know, this is a show about like, do you want to be a mother or not? You're gonna have to talk to your mother, okay? So it was the, it was not the very last, but the penultimate, you know, conversation that I did for the show. And it was so different from what I expected. Because like, there's a mic there and it changes everything, you know? Like, I know when I'm interviewing someone, you don't interrupt, right?

• 32:25Speaker 02

  You ideally leave a little bit of silence after someone's done talking so that if they want to talk more, right, they should. And so I think, well, I don't want to talk for everyone, but like, I often had this thing like, well, I already know what you're gonna say. And I don't like it, and I'm gonna say this other thing to it, you know?

• 32:51Speaker 02

  And so basically, being in this sort of more formal setting with a microphone present, you know, I just then had my professional hat on and was not interrupting and was actually listening and, you know, leaving a lot of space, you know, for actually hearing what you had to say. And obviously, that changes things. I do recommend actually listening to what your... I mean, I'm saying it sort of as a joke, but it's so... it sort of illuminated to me like, oh, you can really live your entire life not hearing each other. And so

• 33:33Speaker 02

  I'm very glad that we did this, especially because like, the biggest thing that for me stood between us having a closer relationship was my feeling of guilt, that I had been so difficult, that I was still difficult, because why did I live so far, you know? And it was my feeling of guilt that made me more resentful, because like, I don't want to feel guilty. I want to feel like a good person, you know? And so then I would just like, push my mom away. And so, talking actually about that, and hearing like, no, you were not... like, I'm glad that I had you. I didn't want another kid, you know?

• 34:17Speaker 02

  I don't love you despite the fact that you had all this depression stuff, you know? But like, exactly for who you are, like, I didn't know that. I still have a hard time fathoming it, you know, probably because I'm not a parent. But I'm, I'm taking it in now.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  So yeah, changed a lot.

• 34:45Speaker 04

  The thing that was very special to me, Helena had a few tricks. She interviewed me. She interviewed me first for the next episode about the Berlin Wall. Not so personal at all. So I was not that nervous for that, for the second conversation. So, good trick for...

• 35:06Speaker 04

  And then, um, we had a conversation. And Helena said, "I'll send you the draft and you can comment and leave out and whatever you want." And I said, "I don't want this because I trust you and it's your show." But she was insisting and she said, "You have to do it. You have to listen and comment." And then I was so, so scared.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  I did. And I was so angry with myself. And I told Helena, "I don't want you to change anything, but I'm angry with myself." And then...

• 35:49Speaker 02

  For not...

• 35:50Speaker 04

  For not seeing that she was depressed and for not giving her the freedom she needed. And she tried to talk me out of it. Of course, didn't work. But then she sent the next version with the sound design. And then I could hear with the sound design what she heard me saying. Because sometimes she made not things more dramatic, but funny. And it was just by adding music or adding silence, which in that episode was so amazing.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  So I would recommend not only to have this conversation with your mother, but to add sound.

• 36:51Speaker 04

  As a teenager, the best thing she did was rolling with her eyes. As a common, she didn't say anything. Sound design does the same thing.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  Okay, so I now have to ask both of you, my panel.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  Should I have a kid?

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Well, I will ask you the same questions that the person I asked, asked me. Do you want a kid? I don't know.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Are you bored?

• 37:26Speaker 03

  No.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Got a lot of stuff on your plate that you're excited about?

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, but is it that important? I don't know.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  What are your financials?

• 37:41Speaker 03

  They're fine.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Okay. Any family nearby?

• 37:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  I think you could if you wanted to. You're gonna feel longing either way, right? Forever, that's just the deal. So what kind of longing do you prefer?

• 37:59Speaker 03

  What are the two choices?

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Like, either you don't have a kid and you long to have one, but you have this other life or you do other things. Or you have a kid and then you long for like, what if I didn't? And what if I had continued my life, you know, the way that you're living it now? So I think you're gonna want the other thing sometimes, anyway. So I think it's like, what do I wanna? What little tug on my heart do I want, you know?

• 38:27Speaker 03

  What's your, what's your answer, Annika?

• 38:32Speaker 04

  I will never give an answer for that. Even when Helena called Peter and I, we were on holiday in Sweden and it was a really nice setting and she called us. And do you have time? Do you have two minutes? And then you know something is wrong. And we said, of course. And she said, I'm pregnant. And we heard her whole life, I don't want a kid. I don't want to have a kid. We talked about it and she asked us, what do you advise? And even then, I didn't give any. Because it's so personal.

• 39:14Speaker 04

  I never asked them or said them that they should have. And I say them because we have another daughter as well. It's so personal. And I don't want to interfere with that.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  And you wrestled, did you wrestle with this question?

• 39:33Speaker 04

  No.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Never?

• 39:35Speaker 04

  No. People who heard the show know that I had a very violent childhood. And it was really evil and dark. And I always found that my task on earth was to turn this around. I wanted to spread love and to make, yeah, just to stop this evil thing. And I thought by having a kid or two kids and loving, then the circle would stop.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  And that was important to me, that it would stop. Not that my children would, sorry, do the same. So it was not a question for me. It was, I had to do it. And I think she is, she has so much love and our other daughter as well. So I'm, I am happy I did, or that we did.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Does it, because so much of the question posed in the podcast is, you know, what to do, how to make meaning with your life without kids? Is that, is that really the answer? Did kids give your life meaning? And did you have to ask yourself that question still after you had kids?

• 41:02Speaker 04

  If I had another background, I don't know if I had had kids. I can't, I can't tell this. And not for everyone, because I, I heard people say to Helena, "Oh, but you'll never know what love is." And I thought, "How do you know?" It was for, for me, but not for anyone else. And that's why, I mean, it's so, so personal, so don't interfere.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I just meant also, like, this idea of how to have meaning in your life. You are so much more than just Helena's mom. You're also an expert on Alvaro Alto. You travel all around the world. Like, that's the other thing that I think is so interesting, that you, that you still kind of have to ask yourself this question again and again and again in the course of your life, is like, "Well, what's my meaning now? What's my meaning now?" Like, whether or not you have a kid.

• 42:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course, and that doesn't stop. This was one meaning of my life. But when she moved, or when she became an adult, my life wasn't over. So then you have to find another meaning and another meaning. And I did a lot of, I have a lot of interests and I have a lot, I did a lot of jobs. And all the time, you can make something more of your life, and it doesn't have to be with a kid.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  I think that's a perfect place to end it. Thank you so much.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  And now, I want to announce the next memoir, coming to CBC personally. It's titled Discount Dave and the Fix. And I don't want to give away too much, but what I will say is that after you've heard a show about a woman, me, who's afraid of parties, the next memoir centers on a party girl. I'm just going to play you the trailer.

• 43:10Speaker 05

  Hey, it's me. Well, it's the shadow version of me. And in 2005, I'm a young actor, fresh out of theatre school, with big dreams and an even bigger drug habit. Blow, boom.

• 43:23Speaker 07

  Charlie Chucky, Sea Dust, Flake, Yay-o. You get the picture. But things are pretty good, you know? You know, I'm madly in love with my sweet boyfriend. And I've just got my first big break at a Shakespeare Festival. I love an audience. Nothing can outshineeth me. That is, until my best friend is set up on a date with David Lee Roth. Yeah, that David Lee Roth from Van Halen. If you know, you know.

• 43:54Speaker 07

  And I need a piece of the action. So I invite the action backstage. Yeah, I'm on a mission, a mission. Yes, yes, this is how it's done. This is how it's done. Yep, party girls are fun, party girls are fun, fun, fun. And it's fun, fun, fun, fun, fun.

• 44:13Speaker 07

  Until it's not. Until he's not David Lee Roth.

• 44:22Speaker 07

  From CBC's Personally, this is Discount Dave and the Fix. The truish story about how a fake rock star led me to a real trial that held up a mirror to me. Yeah, me. Well, you know, the shadow version of me. And OK, let's just say that not everyone in this story is who you think they are. Personally, Discount Dave and the Fix, coming soon wherever you get your podcasts.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Discount Dave and the Fix will be on the CBC Personally feed in just a few days. I hope you stay tuned. And now, I promise I will leave. Just one last thing. I want to thank a few people who worked on Creation Myth and on Discount Dave and on so many shows in the Personally feed. Senior producer Veronica Simmons, coordinating producer Anna Ashitay, executive producers Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak, senior manager Tanya Springer, and director of CBC Podcasts, Arif Noorani. I also want to thank On Air Fest for inviting Avery and me to Talk Shop and Evan Kelly for producing and sound designing this episode. Thank you so much for listening.