NO, Part Three: Answers

The third episode of NO: Kaitlin’s search for the answer to why coercion is so omnipresent lands her in one obvious place. Straight, cis-gendered men. In this episode, Kaitlin consults the men in her life that she loves, her friends, her father, her exes to see if they had ever pressured someone into having unwanted intimacy. But she knows she cannot end her search here. She must reach out to the men who have transgressed her to get their side of the story.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  In Our Time, listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:30Speaker 03

  This is a CBC Podcast.

• 0:35Speaker 04

  I'm Caitlin Prest.

• 0:41Speaker 04

  This is No.

• 0:44Speaker 04

  A mini-season. Episode three.

• 0:53Speaker 04

  This episode, like the one before it and the one before it, contains content that could be triggering for some people.

• 1:02Speaker 04

  In the last episode, I told stories of a couple of hookups that got under my skin. I want to know why this keeps happening. And in this episode, I continue my search for answers.

• 1:23Speaker 04

  Just as I, unknowingly into the disappointment of my parents, absorbed certain ideas about how I was supposed to be a girl in this world, boys, to the disappointment of their parents, absorbed ideas too.

• 1:39Speaker 05

  Steal the beer, meet the girls, get them drunk, try to get some. That was the plan.

• 1:49Speaker 04

  A thirteen-year-old boy and his friends create an elaborate plan to get the girls to do sex stuff.

• 1:54Speaker 05

  A combination of like, like beer and making the move, like that was like the magic answer.

• 2:00Speaker 04

  They learn from older boys and men's magazines that getting girls drunk is crucial to the goal of getting girls to do sex stuff.

• 2:08Speaker 05

  I remember she even like kind of leans into me and I put my arm around her and...

• 2:11Speaker 04

  In the construction site, after three beers, he slides his hand underneath the lip of Janice's pants. She sits up straight.

• 2:19Speaker 05

  That was weird, but you know, that's like, so I'll try a little more.

• 2:23Speaker 04

  She takes his hand away.

• 2:24Speaker 05

  Just give it a minute.

• 2:25Speaker 04

  He puts it back.

• 2:26Speaker 05

  And then I'll try it again, because that's what you're supposed to do, right?

• 2:29Speaker 04

  She takes it away. He puts it back.

• 2:32Speaker 05

  This whole like, you know, no means yes thing that is like embedded.

• 2:37Speaker 04

  A 15-year-old boy leans back in his chair, letting his knees rest on the back of the chair in front of him, leaning up against whatever girl's butt is in the seat.

• 2:46Speaker 06

  If I was sitting behind a girl who I was attracted to, then I would spend a lot of time leaning back in this not that unnatural, but not that natural either, position. And I, yeah, I, I just, I'm cringing.

• 3:03Speaker 04

  A 26-year-old boy invites his good friend over to his house late at night and playfully ignores her when she says she doesn't want to do anything below the belt. When she asks him to jerk off in the bathroom, he laughs, and they resolve to jerk off beside each other instead.

• 3:22Speaker 04

  After that night, I don't talk to or see Jay for years.

• 3:27Speaker 04

  In that time, I search for answers elsewhere. I become obsessed with the topic of consent. Okay, so the idea about the episode is that, um... I want to hear about a time where like, someone said no and you pushed it. It became clear you both wanted different things. Was consent inherent to you, like when you were young? Or did you have to like, unlearn things that you...

• 3:49Speaker 07

  Most women that I know have had that experience, you know?

• 3:52Speaker 04

  Almost every woman and queer I know has a story about being pressured or coerced into sex by a dude.

• 4:00Speaker 04

  And that made me wonder. Does that mean that every man I know has a story about pressuring or coercing someone into sex? I start out by talking to the men in my life that I trust the most. Shall the guilty remain nameless, or what? Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, it's hard because you're my dad. Do you know what I mean? It's fine, whatever. Okay, um, so tell me the story. Long story was, um, I had a real crush on this girl. She got...

• 4:29Speaker 06

  Pretty drunk, so I went down and snuggled up. And I was rubbing her sides and then we kissed a little bit, but that was the extent of it. You know, nothing too, too serious by today's standards, but by then that was a big deal.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  What?

• 4:45Speaker 06

  At that time.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  But what was the big deal?

• 4:47Speaker 06

  Healing her up, um, you know, yeah.

• 4:53Speaker 06

  Yes, and enjoying that, plus she was wearing a free sweater, which was really nice, you know. Anyway, I still remember it. Anyway, uh, but it was not, it was not mutual, so.

• 5:07Speaker 04

  When did you know that she was upset about it?

• 5:10Speaker 06

  Oh, uh, the day after, we heard through the grapevine. We didn't have, uh, texting or Facebook then, but you heard pretty quick through the grapevine, yeah, that it, she was very unhappy about what had happened and felt abused or taken advantage of. And, um, our relationship was never the same after that. I went and apologized, but that was, there was no, uh, coming back from that. And so I felt regretful and paid for it because we were no longer friends after that.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  This is a best friend of mine.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  As soon as I knew that sex wasn't an option, I became a bit of a dick. I got kind of cold and like, um, not really communicative or, yeah, I just became like a stereotypical dick and I became like grumpy and had this really like fuck this attitude, like, oh, if I'm not getting what I'm, what I came here for, then like, nah. I guess I'm lucky that I got this like really intense.

• 6:26Speaker 06

  Detailed email from her, you know, breaking down what I did, why it was bad, how much it hurt her, how it affected her for like days after. And, and I'm not gonna lie, I also had that reaction which you've described. This like initial reaction of like, ugh, you're like over-exaggerating.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  This is my first love. Well, I remember you told me this story of this one night that you had with this woman. Can you tell me that story?

• 6:55Speaker 06

  I can tell you that story. So, um, we were dancing, we were drinking. She ended up getting really drunk and her friends were like,

• 7:06Speaker 06

  definitely putting down their collective foot, saying that, no, I shouldn't sleep with her tonight. That she was too drunk. And she, she's like, I want you to come over. Went over to her place and was in bed with her and we were making out and it was getting heavy. She could feel that I was like moving in. She kind of like, it's like, no, no, like, just kind of like a whisper. Like kind of keeping it sexy, but like saying like, no, you know? I felt kind of confused because that night, like, you know, we were out and she invited me over to her house.

• 7:49Speaker 06

  And for me, that's like a message that she wants to hook up, that like she wants something to happen. Otherwise, like, why invite the person you've been making out with all night over to your place at like, four in the morning unless like you're looking to like fool around a bit more. And so like, I remember like kind of getting off of her, just lying there for a bit, feeling kind of disappointed. Then like started making out again, fooling around again. It was kind of like the same process and happened. And like after doing that for, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes, like,

• 8:30Speaker 06

  I like got back on top and was kind of making the same moves and she didn't say no. There wasn't that point of interjection where she like said no before. And like, so I just went for it because I was like stupid and young and I feel like it's wrong now, you know? Like, I feel like she had said no before and like I should have just.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Been really vocal about like communicating boundaries and like seeing what she wanted for the night, you know?

• 9:01Speaker 04

  Like, do you think that there was a moment where you stopped thinking about what she wanted and was focusing mostly on what you wanted?

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I feel like probably the entire encounter, I was thinking what I wanted as opposed to what she wanted. I mean, I thought that what she wanted was the same thing as what I wanted.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  And, you know, when it wasn't that way, I felt like I was trying to make it that way.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  These are only three out of 15 stories I got from dudes I'm close to.

• 9:32Speaker 06

  We were having sex and then at some point she just stopped making sounds.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  We'd be making out and things would escalate and then we would have to stop. And that kind of like happened over and over. Just like, no, no, and then like winning for more and it's like, still nothing. I got really exasperated and I stormed off the bed and I was like, fine. Like, I continued to push it, like actively pursuing something at this point that this person clearly doesn't want.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  At this point in my life, I believe that behind every wrong done is a vulnerability, a hurt, an as-yet-unknown personal or social context. I want to hear the inner monologue happening on the other side of a consent breach.

• 10:19Speaker 04

  But when I ask these men what's going on underneath the surface, a lot of the answers I get are really upsetting.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  And I'm like, no, she just doesn't know better for herself.

• 10:31Speaker 06

  It's hard to say I remember thinking, because it's almost like I wasn't thinking or I-

• 10:35Speaker 00

  That's fucked up. That's not a right thought to have at all. I just wanted what I wanted and I wasn't really thinking about her. Like, once you're in that, like, end goal state, like, you've got-

• 10:50Speaker 06

  Not a clear mission at hand. Then you're just like completely taken over by your dick. And you don't deprogram because it's completely a situation where you have to take over and unprogram it yourself. But no one does that. I'm sure people do. I haven't.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Well, there's like, there's a kind of like physiological element.

• 11:10Speaker 04

  That's, but is that fucking real, man? I don't know if that's real. Like, I mean, I'm sure like-

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Like blue balls or?

• 11:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, man.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Blue balls are totally real. That whole like tease or blue balls or that whole using that as a way of justifying the actions.

• 11:26Speaker 06

  It can get desperate where it's like, and I can't say I've been younger where it's been like, we're not having sex, I just want to get off somehow. Like I just want to like, how about a blowjob? All right, how about a handjob? Or, you know, let me just put my dick on your shoulder. Maybe if I can just get him in the mood because clearly that will change everything. And like, you just like try random shit and it's like- Statements like just the tip. All I want to do is put the tip in. I don't even want to have sex with you. We're not going to go all the way. I just want to see what it feels like to have the tip in, which is such a crock of shit.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  When someone says no, like what are the different reactions that you have? Do you know what I mean? Like, because I think that there's one thing where it's like you get mad and then you keep pushing. Well, I mean, yeah, you know, you get mad and that's your way of pushing.

• 12:12Speaker 06

  Because, you know, the idea of like taking something like, um, you know, forcefully like sex from someone, you know, that's a real rapist kind of rape type, that's rape. I mean, you think of that as being like a really like she's squirming around. But the reality is what I imagine this is about is that that's not always how it goes down. And it could be against someone's will in the sense that they don't want to, but then they, you wear them down. I think origin is definitely when you push someone to the point where they're just tired of having to like, it's exhausting with them saying no and they're just like, all right, fine.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  Person after person talks about pushing someone to the point where they're tired of saying no, exhausted by the back and forth. It was pretty validating to hear my own experience reflected back at me. For most of these interviews, I just listened. I didn't insert my opinion. But with my dad, I was really able to get into it. The whole idea for this project came from an experience I had with a friend. I was trying to say that I wasn't comfortable with what was happening and he totally ignored me. I tried to say no and he reacted badly. And, and he was my friend. All right, but was it a situation where you invited him to snuggle with you and stay overnight? Well, he invited me to snuggle with him and stay overnight and I came over.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  I warned you about that sort of thing. You know, when he was proposing that to you, he had something completely different in mind than you did. But do you think, but don't you think that it's wrong that he have that expectation? I think that it's wrong that he didn't take no for an answer. Absolutely. You know, the problem is that you have to be more wary. I think that at that point in your, was that when you were in Montreal? No, I was 27. It was three years ago. Oh, gosh, okay, you know. So, anyway, I have always told you that I think that you should, that you're naive in that. Yeah, and I mean, of course, I did have lots of situations where I invited people over and they expected more.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  But I got really good at saying, you know what? The bathroom's right there. Take care of it. You know, and then come back.

• 14:24Speaker 04

  You know? And, and, and I did, I mean, that, that- That's where I think you were being unfair. No. You were being selfish because you wanted to snuggle, but they wanted something else and- And sorry, when I, yeah, anyway, it's not fair. But anyways, we've had that conversation. Why isn't it fair? I mean, like, shouldn't everyone have equal? It's not fair because everything I was saying about the animal, animal natures of the human and of the male anatomy. Yeah, but I feel like that's a construction. Lying beside, no, it's not an excuse. If you're lying beside an attractive girl who you like.

• 15:03Speaker 04

  But that's. Especially when you're young, when you're 25, shit happens, like, you know.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Even my own dad is telling me I deserve what I get.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  I keep fighting him on this until I realize that what he's trying to get at is something that I've heard a lot of people in my life say.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  There's the world that we want to live in and there's the world that we actually live in.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  We have to be careful. I'm willfully naive.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  It's true, I am willfully naive because I don't want to walk through this world spending a percentage of my mental energy being afraid. I'd rather strive for a world where people are worthy of my trust than accept that people are shitty.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  In Our Time, listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 16:24Speaker 06

  Do you want to start?

• 16:27Speaker 04

  Me?

• 16:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, well, what were you thinking?

• 16:32Speaker 06

  That you should start.

• 16:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. But when you gave me the option, I was like, was there an alternative? I mean, I would love an alternative.

• 16:40Speaker 06

  Not starting would be the alternative.

• 16:44Speaker 04

  This is Jay, the real one. No reenactments, no actors.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  It's been three years since we had that shitty hookup that inspired this entire series. I knew that after interviewing all of these men, that he was the one I really needed to talk to. I procrastinated calling him for months.

• 17:07Speaker 04

  He definitely knows that I was upset. But I don't think he knows exactly why. And in this interview, I have to tell him why. I'm afraid. I'm afraid of the same thing I was afraid of that night. I'm afraid of silencing myself to avoid an uncomfortable moment.

• 17:29Speaker 04

  I'm afraid that he's going to convince me that my feelings are illegitimate. And I'm afraid that he'll be a jerk. Over the years, Jay has become kind of a monster in my head, a stereotype. He's morphed into a combination of every man I've ever felt sexually coerced by.

• 17:51Speaker 04

  He's become the poster boy of fake feminist men who think they're feminists because they took some courses in college and really love women. My friend Jay is gone. I don't even know who that person is anymore.

• 18:05Speaker 04

  But a part of my heart opens when he says yes to doing this interview.

• 18:11Speaker 04

  I can tell that he doesn't really want to do it. I can tell that he's doing it because he wants to help me out. He could sense how much I really wanted him to say yes.

• 18:21Speaker 06

  Yes, so what if, I don't know, why don't you?

• 18:25Speaker 04

  I mean, should we do the hard part first or the easy part first?

• 18:28Speaker 06

  Is there a hard part?

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I feel quite nervous about talking about like me and you and stuff, you know? I know, why do you have to make that face? Is that face because you feel like it's stupid or is that face like?

• 18:42Speaker 06

  No, it's not stupid. It's, of course, it's valid. It's like, it's legit, but I just, I don't know, doesn't it feel like such a small?

• 18:53Speaker 06

  Thing.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  But see, I think that that's the thing is that it feels so much bigger to me than it does to you, I think.

• 19:00Speaker 06

  I know, I really knew you were gonna say that. I thought you weren't gonna say that.

• 19:07Speaker 06

  Ah, I just saw it coming.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  It's okay.

• 19:10Speaker 06

  No, it's, is it? I mean, it's gotta be, whatever. I also just don't feel like, me just, ugh, rehashing every, it's just so much work. Can't we just?

• 19:20Speaker 04

  I know what you mean, I know what you mean.

• 19:21Speaker 06

  Can't we just move on? Like, really? Is it really that big a deal? Like, honestly?

• 19:26Speaker 04

  I mean, the thing is, it's not that.

• 19:28Speaker 06

  Cause it can't be in your daily life. Like, can this really follow you around?

• 19:33Speaker 04

  I mean, there's like the honest answer to that question, and then there's the answer to that question, which is like, me really wanting to not make you feel bad. Do you know what I mean?

• 19:44Speaker 06

  To my thinking, it's just like, in all of our friendship, knowing what you know about me,

• 19:51Speaker 06

  don't I get a pass for one infraction of this line? I just, like, stupid, I just was a drunken fool, like, like, pushed over all sorts, and just made such a big mistake. And I get that it was a big mistake, but it was a mistake, and it was like, one, and like, you know, would it be so bad? I'm not asking you to get over it, but just like, in the abstract, if you think about other, like, another friendship, not ours, would it be so bad to just get over that one thing? You know? Like, does it really warrant becoming baggage for so many years?

• 20:35Speaker 06

  It's just, I don't know. That could also just be me, since I'm the one who fucked up. But I also think you fucking overreacted, so, you know.

• 20:45Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 20:46Speaker 04

  I mean.

• 20:46Speaker 06

  And you also, like, haven't talked to me for years until now you need something, right?

• 20:51Speaker 04

  My giggling tells me that I'm nervous, but I know that in this moment I'm also relieved that we're getting right into it. Looking him in the eye through the computer, seeing into his bedroom, watching him angle the camera so that the light's flattering. The dude bro monster melts away, and I'm just chilling with my friend Jay about to. Have a pretty intimate conversation.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  It's kind of nice. I'm not scared of him anymore. What I'm scared of is that I won't have the courage to say what I need to say.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  But I start to try. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

• 21:34Speaker 06

  So whatever.

• 21:35Speaker 04

  Fair point, but I have to say that like I didn't remember you ever saying sorry or like acknowledging my feelings about it or even just saying sorry. Like I just didn't remember you saying sorry. Like I felt like I really trusted you as a friend and that like I said, I don't really want to touch junk. And then you kept trying to, you kept junk touching and putting my hand on your junk and stuff like that. You know what I mean? And telling me to touch your junk and like, and I kept trying to sort of like push back. You know what I mean? Like in a nice way. At this point, I talk for about 10 minutes straight.

• 22:10Speaker 04

  I tell him all of it and he just listens, wincing here and there.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  I tell him what he did, how it made me feel. I tell him about Trevor Smalls and the blowjob in the basement.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  I tell him that he'd said and did things that had brought me back there.

• 22:32Speaker 04

  I tell him he made me feel like a means to an end.

• 22:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, okay.

• 22:43Speaker 06

  I don't, yeah, I get that. I don't know what else to say. It would have been nice to have had this conversation then, right? Like after it happened because like you said too, it's, it's like then we jerked off in front of each other. And I was, yeah, I was, I was like a super pushy drunk hookup guy. But that's all I wa, I wasn't basement guy.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  I know, but.

• 23:13Speaker 06

  And like, I, no, no, no, but hear me out. Like I understand that it just, it pushes and it's like, it's, I heard everything you said, that you just said. Like I heard it all. I guess what's frustrating is like the fact that there is trauma.

• 23:31Speaker 06

  That then compounds. That's like a fact, but it would be nice to know like, like which specific ones uh were getting added to to me. Cause like, I know I've I've I've pushed you back there. But then those things that you experienced are not what happened necessarily. Like, I don't.

• 23:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think that like, it's it's.

• 23:53Speaker 06

  But there's not even much of a difference.

• 23:55Speaker 04

  But that's the thing. Like, I guess it did it did feel.

• 23:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, but like, that was enough. That was enough for you to just like, write me off? Like, where do I get to draw the line and be like, well, you know what? That's not me. Like, I'm not all those other people. I'm sorry that this had that like, we got drunk together and that I tried to do hand stuff and you didn't want to. And then it ended up with us doing hand stuff next to one another. And then I'm sorry that still drunkenly I was a dick. And then I'm sorry that drunkenly I said a bad thing. And you know, I'm sorry for all that, but it's like,

• 24:31Speaker 06

  how bad do I have to feel? One thing is like parsing out where I end and like all the other terrible dudes in the world begin, which is a frustrating thing for a young man to to deal with. Fuck, man. Also, like, haven't I done my time? Like, do I really have to feel like I I haven't gotten to talk to you for years now because of it? Like, how much guilt do I really have to have?

• 24:56Speaker 04

  Um, see, you're making me feel bad.

• 25:01Speaker 06

  Okay, I no, I just wanna know.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Okay, um.

• 25:05Speaker 06

  You're making me feel bad.

• 25:07Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 25:13Speaker 04

  No, I don't think that you.

• 25:15Speaker 06

  I don't think I asked you for permission to stop doing that. Yeah, and then the only reason I ask that is but it is an isolated incident in our friendship.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  We talked for about an hour and a half total. I'll spare you all the details. Mostly, we just kept circling back around the same point. Why it shouldn't be that big of a deal?

• 25:36Speaker 04

  I realized that I never got a chance to ask what his inner monologue was of that night. Or what larger personal and social context might have been at play.

• 25:46Speaker 04

  But I wasn't silent. I stood my ground.

• 25:53Speaker 04

  And I fought for the legitimacy of my feelings. But I felt like you missed some of my cues. You were pushy. Most women are dealing with some degree of sexual trauma. It feels like the right thing to look at it through the lens of being a dude. There's something slippery about isolating specific sexual activities. This one's worse than that one. A friend of mine says that they're upset. My first reaction is to be like, oh, my god, what the fuck did I do? I'm so sorry, times a thousand. And I didn't feel that from you. Suddenly, to you, I was just like... A means to an end.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  It still makes me angry that I had to fight so hard for the legitimacy of my feelings in the first place. And when I start cutting the interview, I start to hear how accusatory his voice sounds.

• 26:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, Caitlin, I mean, it sucks. Like, I fucked up.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  Instead of talking about why he was a jerk that night, we talk about why I'm a jerk for being upset about it. I hear how each of his apologies were paired with a rebuttal of the entire premise of the conversation. Like, this is not what an apology sounds like.

• 27:00Speaker 06

  I'm sorry that still drunkenly I was a dick. And, you know, I'm sorry for all that, but it's like, how bad do I have to feel?

• 27:11Speaker 04

  This is what an apology sounds like.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  Caitlin, I'm so sorry. I mean, I fucked up.

• 27:21Speaker 04

  That's Tommy, the actor who played Jay in the last episode. I hired Tommy to pretend to be Jay for one more day. And I tried out what it would feel like to do more than just explain myself politely and tactfully, but to actually get angry. It was your fault.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  I'm realizing that now, that...

• 27:43Speaker 04

  Do you know why it was your fault? I'm gonna tell you why it was your fault. You were a fucking asshole! It's fucked up that you belittle the way that I feel about this just because we didn't have penetrative sex. You were mean to me! Fucking mean. You hurt my feelings and you won't even fucking apologize in a real apologizing way about it. If I fucking hurt your feelings, I would feel like shit about it. You don't fucking feel like shit about it. You treated me like a fucking Barbie doll. I was taught from birth to put what you want before what I want. And it's your fucking job to be sensitive to that. You perform masculinity really fucking well. You're doing a great job at it. You're a man, and I hate you for it. You have all the fucking privilege cards. You treated me like shit. And you're acting like I've wronged you. I fucking hate you and your kind.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  That didn't really feel right.

• 28:31Speaker 04

  I hate getting mad.

• 28:34Speaker 04

  I think my ideal conversation is one where there's just a lot of care.

• 28:40Speaker 04

  But it doesn't mean that I haven't started to feel a bit angry at men in general.

• 28:45Speaker 04

  I start reading a bunch of bell hooks.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  Bell hooks says that by being angry at men and pointing the finger at men and blaming all of this on men, that all we're doing is accepting the idea that men are all-powerful and women are all-powerless. If all men are inevitably oppressive, then all women are inevitably victims. She says that women are masking their longing to be dominators by taking on the mantle of victimhood.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  I think Bell hooks would say that the problem isn't men. Basically, it's about the way that we define power and the way that we all use and abuse whatever power we have. I've definitely done it. If the way that we've culturally defined how to be powerful in this world is to be dominant, and to be dominant is to be masculine, and to be masculine is to be strong, and to be strong is to have your way be the way in spite of what anyone else wants, that is some shit that we all need to start looking at and deprogramming. And the crazy thing is that when you connect all of that shit with sex, it's a wonder that any sex we have is consensual.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Desirable and like something that's worked into what the sexual dynamic is about. About using that power to take something from a woman.

• 30:15Speaker 07

  That gender dynamic translates over into trans men and even some masculine presenting women. I've experienced it myself. Like, one of the first times I hooked up with like a straight girl. I was like, oh, I have to act like the way she's used to men acting. Be really confident and not question myself and seem like I know what I'm doing.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Whether I like it or not, I am perceived as more masculine because I am like a masculine of center, gender non-conforming person. I've been expected to be in a more dominant top situation.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Having that role to play in an intimate encounter where you're supposed to own the other person's body carries a lot of risk with it because it's hard to tell what's too far.

• 31:08Speaker 07

  I'm in the middle of a sexual negotiation right now with somebody who that's exactly what she is into. Just being completely dominated and like taken by somebody. And I'm super into that, too. Like, that's one of the things I like. And I like it as a gender dynamic. I like all those things about it. I'm like completely uncomfortable doing that without essentially like more or less like having it in writing.

• 31:36Speaker 07

  Like, I love sexual planning. That's like one of my favorite things is just like, let's just, let's just spell this all out.

• 31:47Speaker 04

  I think that I was hoping after a few years Jay would have reflected on what happened between us and realized on his own where things went wrong. That it would have changed him, made him more sensitive to this kind of stuff.

• 32:02Speaker 04

  And maybe if I wasn't the one interviewing him, if it was someone more neutral, the conversation would have gone differently. Maybe it would have gone more like the way that it went with my friends. How can you register consent now? Like?

• 32:18Speaker 03

  It's like largely just through intuiting what that person wants or needs. I mean, sometimes I'll like ask a person like, are you okay with this? You know, are you okay with me touching you here? Or like, or I'll say, do you want to have sex? Those are verbal cues. But largely, I think that like, there's just kind of a tacit understanding between people as to like, how far they want to go. And I think I'm more sensitive to that now.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Being good at consent is just really about being good at caring about other people all the time.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Even if there's something you really, really want, um, that you can still think about who the person you're wanting it from is. There's literally, there's no such thing as overreacting. There's just the reaction. And I'm not in a, I'm not allowed to decide whether reaction is an overreaction or an underreaction.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  It just like is the way someone reacted to a certain situation. And I'm not allowed to decide otherwise. Like, it's only nice when it's a good experience for both people. So like, why would I want to impose myself like that? Why would I want to make it a shitty night for someone? It's going to be a shitty night for me if it's a shitty night for them. We're sharing the night together. So, because like, I'm really like violating myself when I violate them. Because I ruin the experience for both of us. And then I have to deal with the guilt for like eight years.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  Like, I still remember that one night. It was just a single night, you know? And it's like, I still, I feel bad about it now to this day.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, sometimes I wonder if I need to change like everything about.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  The way that I have sex, even like with my partner now, if it's just too fucked up to do. Maybe, you know, like maybe, maybe we shouldn't do it like that, you know?

• 34:30Speaker 00

  But there are so many other narratives that we could use to be sexy.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  A friend of mine told me that they and their partner were doing a backpack role play, where they were trying each other on as backpacks,

• 34:50Speaker 00

  and being backpacks for one another. So that sounds kind of cool.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Shit like that, like, I think we just need to get more creative.

• 35:08Speaker 04

  And so, at the end of all of this, I'm like, what now?

• 35:17Speaker 04

  Amidst all of the sexes I've had that were shitty with dudes, there were also many sexes I've had with women and men that were a perfect dance of pleasure, care, and love.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  Dances with people I just met and would never see again. Dances with people who would become my long-term partners. Dances with people who were pushy but realized it and apologized with real sincerity the next day. I've had sexes where someone overstepped and readjusted immediately.

• 35:54Speaker 04

  And I've had sexes where I'm expected to be masculine and dominant and make all the moves, and I'm fucking immobilized because I'm so scared of doing something that the person doesn't like.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  Where I marvel at the confidence and grace that some of the dominant sexual partners in my life have achieved. Taking action but being so tapped into how I'm responding. Their perfect fluency in my body language. How receptive they are when I say, "Not this, but that." How we follow each other and listen to each other, back and forth, until we're both exactly where we want to go.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  This was episode three of No. No is a serialized season of The Heart. There's still one more episode. And in that episode, I'm gonna sit down with someone smart and process everything that you heard in the first three episodes. Unpack them, analyze them a bit. What I would really love is if you found yourself asking questions, or wanting to unpack certain things, or there was a point that you wished that we discussed more, or spent more time on. Record it on your phone and send it to us at [email protected]. Or write it down on a piece of paper, take a picture of it, and Instagram it. Our Instagram is @theheartradio. Or you can just tweet at us, @theheartradio.

• 37:38Speaker 04

  We really want to answer your questions in the next episode. This season is produced by me, Caitlin Prest, with the help of an incredible team of humans. Ariel Han, assistant producer. Sharon Meschee, editor, whose idea it was to have a fake conversation with Tommy. Mitra Kaboli, other editor, who has listened to every single version and subversion and sub-sub-subversion. Version 19.1, version 19.2. Episode three, version 18, post-Jay with music. Post-Jay, anger flies then bell. 18.7. Version 19.3 with music. 19.3 without music. Version 19.3.3.3 with music in the middle.

• 38:22Speaker 04

  Version 27.777, which was lost in the Dropbox for a thousand years. Thank you to Phoebe Wang, associate producer, extraordinaire. Shani Aviram, collaborated on the sound design and scoring in this episode. Jen Ing, our designer, and all of the extra ears who helped this piece along. You know who you are. I also want to give a huge thanks to all of my dude friends and my dad for participating in this project. You guys were so brave and raw with me. And of course, thank you to my friend Jay, that's not his real name, for giving me his permission and his blessing to hash out something super personal here in support of me and this project. Huge thanks also to a man named Brad Perry.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  You heard a tiny excerpt of his essay in the beginning of the show. It's from the anthology Yes Means Yes, which is a series of essays about consent. And his essay about his boyhood totally inspired me to write about my stories of girlhood. Thank you also to the amazing Tommy Shell, who rolled with our unconventional requests like a pro. Are you cool with this, though?

• 39:33Speaker 06

  Me?

• 39:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:35Speaker 06

  I mean, yeah, I don't mind, okay. Why do you ask?

• 39:41Speaker 04

  I'm like, I feel like it's a kind of like weird therapy. If you want to support the show, as always, we have T-shirts and posters on our website, theheartradio.org. This entire season was made with the support of the International Women's Media Fund and, of course, Radiotopia. Thanks, as always, to the Knight Foundation and Adzirk. Bye. Bye.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.