NO, Part Four: Questions

Many listeners were left with a lot of lingering questions and thoughts after the first three episodes. In the final installment of ‘NO’ we respond to some of the questions that we heard a lot of. What do I tell my kids? What if my no DOES mean yes? Additionally, some of the producers and trusted sex educator, Samara Breger unpack some of the blind spots and larger themes from the last three episodes.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  In Our Time. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:30Speaker 03

  This is a CBC Podcast.

• 0:34Speaker 04

  I'm Caitlin Prest and this is No.

• 0:39Speaker 04

  This is the last episode in the mini-season.

• 0:44Speaker 04

  If you're coming to this for the first time, go back a few episodes and start with the first. It's called Advance. You really have to listen to every episode of the season to get the full picture. We've come so far.

• 1:00Speaker 04

  I've come so far.

• 1:03Speaker 04

  In the first episode, I realised that saying no isn't always enough. In the second episode, I realised that being good at setting boundaries would be something I'd have to practise my entire life. And in the third episode, I went looking for answers from people who have perpetrated consent breaches, mostly cisgendered men.

• 1:26Speaker 04

  Mostly my friends.

• 1:29Speaker 04

  This series brought up a lot of strong emotions for everyone. Everyone on the team, everyone who listened, people with all sorts of different opinions and experiences. Hey, Heart. Hi, The Heart.

• 1:43Speaker 05

  Hi, Caitlin. Hey, Caitlin. My name's Nick. I'm Emily from Vancouver. Hi there. My name is Catherine and I live in Oakland, California.

• 1:50Speaker 06

  This is Anna. I come from Chikya, the post-communist country. Hi, my name is Sarah and I just listened to the most recent episode of The Heart.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  For a very long time in my life, I was an absolute fuckboy.

• 2:03Speaker 07

  I have a son.

• 2:03Speaker 05

  I have two little girls. They're seven and 10.

• 2:07Speaker 07

  And so this is having me think a lot about the conversations I want to have with him as he grows up. He's only 10 now.

• 2:14Speaker 05

  When no does mean yes.

• 2:17Speaker 06

  I would say no, but I would mean yes.

• 2:25Speaker 05

  How do we view ourselves as all fly? You know, everyone has the potential to be the basement blowjob guy, like. And also all good people. Like, how does this stuff?

• 2:41Speaker 04

  I was so happy to get all of the letters and audio messages and tweets and Instagram comments from all of you, telling me what this brought up for you, things it made you think about, conversations it inspired. And now I'm going to lead a conversation with the team that helped me make this, answering some of the questions you had, some of the questions we had. This episode is going to be a little bit different from the other episodes. It's going to be more interview style, like straight talk podcasts that maybe you listen to. It's basically going to be a big processing party. So today, we're sitting in the studio with Phoebe Wang. Hi. Ariel Han. Hi. And a special visitor, the one and the only Samara Breger. Hi.

• 3:26Speaker 04

  Who you may remember from the early Heart days, who has come to be our sex educator guru.

• 3:33Speaker 04

  So, first question.

• 3:35Speaker 06

  Hi, my name is Fatima and I was just listening to the episode Answers. So I was just wondering what your thoughts were on that willingness of people to accept the trope of, "Oh, I was drunk, so I had nothing to do with it," or, "Oh, it was my penis and I had nothing to do with it." It just seems like such an absolving oneself of responsibility.

• 4:04Speaker 04

  Thank you. To answer your question, Fatima, like, I mean, the truth is that I don't buy it, like, at all. Like, I don't think alcohol is an excuse. I don't think that your dick getting crazy is an excuse. The crazy thing is that alcohol seemed to be kind of a common thread in a lot of the stories that the men told. And we got another question from somebody who was just curious, you know, about what the role of alcohol is in all of this. Do you have thoughts, Samara? It's really complicated. In the New York Yes Means Yes law, which isn't actually called Yes Means Yes at this point, I think it's called, like, Equality or Experience,

• 4:45Speaker 04

  whatever, in this New York state law, they do say that having sex with an intoxicated person is against the law. They do not give a blood alcohol content percentage. They do not give an actual number. They do not get, there is no exact rubric for, oh, no, this person is too intoxicated. People really need to use their better judgment when having sex for the first, for any time with a partner who is intoxicated. When in doubt, if you're like, if this person is too drunk, don't have sex with that person. It's not a good idea, and the sex is probably not gonna be that good, anyway. If you are talking to

• 5:28Speaker 04

  somebody and the thought crosses your mind, God, is that person too drunk? That person is too drunk, don't have sex with them. Okay, so, Samara, can you describe sort of like, how do we meaningfully negotiate and attain consent? Consent is not the absence of a no. Consent is the presence of a yes. And that's not just me saying it, that's New York state law. So consent, you don't just, like, give it once and then you can do whatever. Like, when you are having sex with somebody, you can say yes in the beginning, and then say no, and then that's no. You can say yes, and

• 6:11Speaker 04

  then say yes again, and then say no, and then later say yes, and you gave that consent. Consent is not like one blanket statement, we've given it, handshake, we're done. It's a constant checking in with somebody over the course of a...

• 6:27Speaker 04

  Any kind of relationship. Consent doesn't necessarily just have to be for use in sexual situations. You constantly need to check in and keep that going. So it's a whole thing. But so for myself, and in the final moments of the third episode, we were talking about physical consent and like, you know, reading people's body language and not getting a verbal yes. Yeah. But feeling it out. Yeah. You think that's tricky? No, I mean, I think it is tricky. And I think that nonverbal consent is for established relationships. It's so easy to read into every little thing to comply with whatever narrative is in your head. If you really want to kiss somebody's neck and you're sitting next to them at the bar

• 7:10Speaker 04

  and they turn their neck towards you, you're gonna think, oh, that means she wants me to kiss her neck. Not everybody is gonna read that from that interaction, but because you have that in your head already, it's what you see. So when you are first meeting somebody, when you are first interacting with somebody, when you are first having a sexual relationship with somebody, even though verbal consent doesn't sound like the sexiest thing on paper, it really, really can be. And then, once you negotiate it, once you say like, listen, I don't actually like talking about this. So here's all the things that are okay for me to do, like that I feel good about and I want to do with you tonight.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  You can go forth and have your fun, pre-negotiated, nonverbal sexual interaction. I mean, so many people are like, oh, it kills the mood. It doesn't kill the mood. I think people are afraid to be that vulnerable, to have it laid out in front of them so clearly, like, can I do this? Can we do this? No. Can we do this? Yes. To have that, to put that power into somebody else's hands, I think is very hard for a lot of people. But I think if you do not have the maturity to achieve that level of vulnerability with somebody,

• 8:33Speaker 04

  you do not have the maturity to be having sex with that person. When you stop to talk about stuff, you're not talking about like, The Yankees, you're talking about sex. Sex is sexy. Touch me there, lower, to the left, softer. Are you OK if I put my mouth on your dick? Can I lick your dick? Like, you don't have to say, mm, are we ready for intercourse? You can say, I want you inside me. Next question. This is a letter from a listener. Quote, "I've slept with a lot of self-described feminists.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  What shocked me was to find that they preferred me, their male partner, to take on a dominant role. They would ask me to be aggressive, to objectify them, to inflict pain on them." And then another listener wrote in, asking, basically, what if my no does mean yes? Like, a lot of the times, I'll say no, and what I want, I'm just kind of playing a sex game, and I actually do want to have sex. To me, both of these questions are sort of getting at the same thing, which is that the power dynamic and the potential loss of control is part of what is sexy. And it's even sexier when it's gendered, and that there are these certain gendered

• 9:59Speaker 04

  power behaviors that, for some people, are what makes sex hot. So there are a few points that come up around this. First, I think, a huge problem that I see with a lot of straight sex is that there are power dynamics at play. It's part of what we enjoy, but we don't name that. Like, there is a name for enjoying power play in sex? It's called BDSM. There's also a name for taking pleasure in saying no, and your partner taking sex from you anyway. It's called a rape fantasy.

• 10:36Speaker 04

  And I feel like the world of kink has really incredible resources and social norms built around how to have risky sex consensually that we could all benefit from looking into. And I think that like a lot of straight people don't name the fact that what we're doing when we're having sex and playing these games, these gendered power games, is light BDSM, basically.

• 11:06Speaker 04

  And of course, there's going to be people who will say that naming it like that sort of takes the fun out of it, but I have to insist that there are still ways to maintain the mystery and the fun of it and have it be consensual. I feel like talking about your preferences when you're not about to have sex or in the middle of sex is one way, like just bringing up your sexual preferences as a topic of conversation. Establishing a safe word is another way to do this consensually where you say, you know, "I'm gonna say no a bunch, but when I really need you to stop, I'm gonna say peanut." Another thing is that I think it's important to recognize that it doesn't make someone

• 11:48Speaker 04

  less of a feminist if they enjoy gendered power play during sex. I think for the man who wrote in talking about feminists who want to be dominated by a man, I think the main thing that you need to ask is like, are you comfortable doing that kind of gender performance in sex? I think it's important, again, within straight land, for us to like recognize that we don't have to perform these gender roles, like that this is not the only way that we can have sex with each other. The third thing is that women perpetuate misogyny and dumb gender stuff just as much as men do. So that's another thing to think about. Next question.

• 12:30Speaker 07

  Hi, Caitlin. Thank you so much for your show. Having the kind of conversations that you had with your father. As a man, that's something that was really missing for me growing up is to have been able to have conversations where I could have been prepared. I have a son, and so this is having me think a lot about the conversations I want to have with him as he grows up. He's only 10 now. Not having had them myself, just needing some models for what fathers can tell their sons. Thanks and keep up the great work.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  Samara, do you want to take this one? Yeah, I think the way to talk about consent with kids is to start really early. You can talk about consent without talking about sex. So you start with, you know, grandma wants to hug you. You don't have to hug grandma. That's your body. You make the choices. And also, if your kid doesn't want to hug you, you don't pout and you don't say, "Oh." You don't guilt your kid. And you don't teach that kid that not sharing their body with somebody warrants a guilt response. And you start there. And you work on bodily autonomy.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  And then, as they get older, the conversation builds on those core principles to fold in all of these ideas about power dynamics and about gender dynamics and about sexual experiences. But teaching a kid early on that their body is theirs and other people's bodies are not theirs is totally key. And there are a lot of resources online for this. A good place to start is at RAINN, R-A-I-N-N, Rape Abuse and Incest National Network. They have resources for talking to kids about consent.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lions doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  In Our Time, listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Ariel, you and I worked a lot on the background research that laid the groundwork for this and you were involved in every step of the process of sort of trying to figure out how we were going to frame this. And at every turn, we were like, why is this story not more queer? You know, like this is one of the straightest stories we've ever done on this show. And why do you think the story wasn't more queer?

• 15:23Speaker 06

  I mean, we interviewed countless queer people, some of whom had stories that connected to consent in general. Most of those situations were with heterosexual cis men. I feel like a lot of sexual situations between queer people start as a negotiation rather than having that be an afterthought or something that comes three months down the line. Queer sex can be a lot of different things and people each have their own definitions of what that is. So before things even happen, you're talking about what you want to have happen, what you might be into. And that's not to say that violations of consent or sexual violence does not happen within queer context.

• 16:08Speaker 06

  Some power dynamics are a little bit more level if you're the same gender as someone else, or both are marginalized as queer individuals. Not to say that other very complex power dynamics like race and class don't play into that as well.

• 16:23Speaker 04

  I mean, so one thing that we were really concerned about in the making of this was that it would be accessible to all the different kinds of power dynamics that exist. And we got this email from somebody who read it in a certain way. Do you want to read it, Phoebe?

• 16:39Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  Listening to the latest episode resonated with me in a way that I wasn't expecting. It made me think about racism. Patriarchy is dominant and it operates just like white supremacy. As a woman of color, of course, this isn't a new revelation for me, but wow did this episode demonstrate it for me in a totally unexpected way. And then the listener goes on to talk about when Jay says, "How bad do I have to feel?" and resist being put in the category of all men. It's like the same thing as when white people say, "I'm sorry that things have been unfair for people of color and that somehow I made you feel uncomfortable or treated you differently, but like, I'm not in the KKK, I am not my ancestors, I didn't own slaves." At what point do I get to say, "Hey, don't hold me accountable for what other people

• 17:25Speaker 04

  did?" And that's what the listener is saying that white people say. Yeah. And it's interesting because this question of like, "How bad do I have to feel?" is something that really outraged a lot of people. And I guess I'm wondering, you know, as a white person or as any individual who benefits on some level from a history of oppression, like, how bad do we have to feel? Do you know what I mean? Like, how bad does he have to feel? Yeah, well, I think there's two components. I think that if you do a bad thing, you should feel bad about it because if you feel bad, then you can correct your behavior in the future, right?

• 18:08Speaker 04

  I think that's totally different than self pity, which is what white guilt to me is, which is like passive and unproductive. I don't think, when it comes to race, for me, it's not about like feeling bad that you're white. There's nothing inherently bad about being white, but I think it requires an awareness of where your position is in the world. And a whole history leading up to the moment that you interact with another person, like, you need to be aware of how that history has given you power over another person. Totally. That makes sense. So Phoebe, do you feel like that connects? To your own experience, can you comment on that?

• 18:51Speaker 04

  I think until really recently, I didn't want to acknowledge that I was

• 18:58Speaker 04

  different than other people. Like, I wanted to think that I have the same amount of power as anybody else, to the point where I thought that I would like, I basically like said I was a twinkie. So I was like white on the inside and like yellow on the outside, right? Which is so problematic. But like, recently, I've been realizing, like, I was on the plane back from San Francisco, and I was in the middle seat of a three-seat row. And I realized when an Asian person sat down next to me, that I was more comfortable climbing over her to go to the bathroom than if it were a white person. And I was really relieved. And then I was like, what? What did I just feel in myself, right? This feeling of like inferiority to someone, where like, I'm more inclined to want to please a white person than I am a person of color.

• 19:44Speaker 04

  And I think that plays into this a lot, because it has to do with what you're talking about with power. It's like, when a white person likes me, it's like, oh, my gosh! Like, a white person actually likes me, right? Versus like, a person of color liking me, where it feels like, okay, yeah, sure. Like, it's like this whole lifetime's worth of social structures that like feed into like sexual experiences. And that seems like a, like a big jump, but like, I don't think it is. I don't think so either. I think it makes perfect sense. Next question.

• 20:18Speaker 05

  Something that I hoped that you would talk about more is what you mean when you say gray area, because I was listening to the second episode, and there were some experiences that you had that you played for us, where I thought you were being really clear about what you were okay with, and then the guy didn't listen to you. And you referred to those experiences as gray areas. And I thought, no, that's not gray, because she was being super duper clear. And she said exactly what she wanted and didn't want the guy to do. So, um, yeah, if you could, could talk more about that term, and when it applies,

• 21:00Speaker 05

  and when it doesn't, or if people agree or disagree about that, um, that would be really cool. Bye.

• 21:08Speaker 04

  Hannah.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  So, just to, there's been, you know, when people listen to the Raul tape, they hear a lot of different things. Some people hear me being an asshole, some people hear him being an asshole, some people hear me getting raped. And, um, there's a lot of reasons why you would hear that. Um, I don't feel like that's what happened. I didn't feel violated. I felt disrespected. Um, and I actually don't know if the reason why I prefer to say that I was disrespected over violated, um, is because that was the truth of what happened, or whether it's because victim blaming is so prevalent that I do it to myself, you know?

• 21:52Speaker 04

  And that it's easier for me to frame it that way and say that I was disrespected because saying that I was violated hurts and is scary. Yeah. You know? And, um, I think part of it as well is something that, talking about agency, if I feel like I had some agency in that situation, then I feel like I have the power to prevent it in the future. But the thing, I think the reason why the Raul situation is confusing is because I was feeling many things at the same time. I did have romantic feelings for him, you know? And I really was enjoying being kissed by him. And I was enjoying being touched by him.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  I was responding physiologically to what was happening. I was also emotionally responding to what was happening. Like, I was enjoying the attention, I was enjoying the intimacy. But that didn't change the fact that if he'd stopped and asked before, if he'd said, "Hey, is this cool?", I would've been like, "Actually, I'd really rather not." There are a couple of things that I heard you say that I want to hit on. One of them is this thing called arousal non-concordance that happens to a lot of women, and also men. And it's when your body responds sexually to something that you do not want, or that your mind is not there with. It happens all the time. Sex stuff makes us feel sexy.

• 23:19Speaker 04

  Even when we don't want it sometimes. And sometimes we do want it and our body doesn't respond. So I think a lot of women who end up in sexual situations that they do not want to be in are confused and betrayed by how their body reacts. But that doesn't mean that they wanted it. It just means that their body is having a natural reaction to being stimulated. It's a thing. It's whatever. Yeah, there's another thing, which is that consent is not just the absence of a no. Consent is the presence of a yes. You did not say yes to Raul.

• 23:58Speaker 04

  You did not consent. It is his responsibility to ask for that enthusiastic consent, for that yes. And it is your responsibility, if you want that sex, to give the enthusiastic consent, that yes. There was no yes in this situation. There you go. The reason why it feels great to me is that I question the degree of agency I had in participating in these encounters. I question whether the fact that at a certain point I chose to participate in these sexual

• 24:36Speaker 04

  encounters, does that mean that I wanted to participate in these encounters? And I think that admitting that I didn't feel like I had a choice is hard.

• 24:55Speaker 04

  I think that for most women, calling something rape is really painful. And I think that calling something a violation is even painful. Even just the way that the words that I use to describe what happened with Jay. I'm like, oh, drunken night of masturbation failure. Like, I feel like I have to make jokes about it to make it OK for myself. And I know that that's something that a lot of people do. Where you're like, oh, it was that night. Like, you just don't want to even use a word. Or the word. The words that people use to describe those types of things because it does, it makes you feel like a victim. And that's a hard thing to feel because a victim is someone who doesn't have power.

• 25:40Speaker 04

  And that is not a fun thing to feel like. I guess the one thing that made me really, really upset is that while we were making this piece, a lot of people were telling you that in the Raul tape that you shouldn't have been talking in like a sexy way. It sounded to me like they were saying like you had this coming to you. And every single time, what strikes me is that like you draw really clear boundaries. And like to me, regardless of how you say it, whether or not you thought it was like, like you enjoyed it or you didn't enjoy it, the fact that you had said no, made it clear to me that he shouldn't have proceeded. Like, I don't know why someone would continue to proceed to cross those lines, you know?

• 26:25Speaker 04

  For me, that brings up the question of whose responsibility is it? If a line is being crossed, is it on me to police the crossing of that line more vocally? Or is it the responsibility of the person crossing the line to be more careful? Okay, last question, very important question from Dorothy.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  You talked about, you know, this idea of like fake feminist men who, all that. And I, and I feel like I'm interacting with those men. Like, those men are my friends. Like, those men are the close men in my life. And I have just found myself feeling so angry and feeling like all my anger is being channeled to them. And I, and I, and I react that way to a point where these men in my life are like, why are you treating me like I, I'm everything that you hate about men? And I know that isn't fair. Like, I know the

• 27:32Speaker 01

  stereotype of, of, of the angry feminists, like, is a stereotype for a reason. Because we feel angry. And, and it's hard not to take that out on the men around you. And I'm just struggling with how to navigate that.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  Very important question. How do I not be a man hater when anger towards men is legit?

• 27:56Speaker 04

  Basically, I try to remember that man as a category is actually pretty amorphous. Like, how many men do I see walking down the street are actually that one type of man who carries all the privilege cards? Probably way less than I think. Like, I might have more privilege or more power than a lot of the men that I see in the world because I'm white, because I'm middle-class, because I have a cis boyfriend, I have hetero privilege, I'm extroverted, which affords me a lot of power. Everybody has different intersections of power and privilege, and I think the important thing is that you can never really know how many power boxes people actually tick off.

• 28:41Speaker 04

  You might see someone who looks to you like a man but who's a closeted trans person who will come out in 10 years from now. Or you might see a man walking down the street who is a trans person, who transitioned five years ago and lived most of their life as a woman. Or you might look at a man who doesn't perform masculinity in the way that he's supposed to perform masculinity and is treated lesser because of that. I could be the oppressor in certain situations, depending on who the man I'm interacting with is. Is a man really a man, I guess? I hope that helps.

• 29:32Speaker 04

  So, we discussed and answered questions for like, two hours. And to be honest, we've been discussing and questioning and searching for answers every single day for the last year about this stuff. And there are still so many questions to answer.

• 29:47Speaker 05

  How do we actually hold people accountable in ways that are positive?

• 29:52Speaker 04

  Is fighting back gently working? Or do I have to get angry? Is being angry productive? What does accountability look like for And for people who don't hold their own lines.

• 30:06Speaker 05

  Like, where do you draw the line? Where do you say, like, this person will not listen to me? And there's no point. Like, when do you give up?

• 30:14Speaker 04

  If I disagree with defining power as domination, then what is the new definition of power? Could it be vulnerability?

• 30:22Speaker 06

  Can power ever be equally shared? What does that look like? How do we keep ourselves safe in the world that we actually live in without becoming straight-up separatists? How do we create the world that we want to live in without making martyrs of ourselves?

• 30:38Speaker 04

  What did sex-positive feminism really give us? Why did anyone ever advocate to fuck without feelings? If we're gonna have sex with strangers, why can't we also be loving and respectful to strangers?

• 30:52Speaker 06

  I'm wondering if it's misogynistic to not view women transgressing men's boundaries as a problem, you know? Like...

• 31:06Speaker 04

  How do I not be depressed about humanity?

• 31:09Speaker 06

  Where does, like, my responsibility and my partners begin?

• 31:17Speaker 04

  I wish that I could answer all of your questions, but alas, I am actually clearly not an expert on this stuff. I'm just a human person who isn't afraid of being vulnerable in public and using my own life as fodder for larger conversation about issues that I think are important. We did spend some time collecting some resources. Just go to theheartradio.org and click on the episode "Questions", and we'll have a ton of links there. Yeah, so that this is the end. I want to thank you. So much love to you.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  No is a serialized mini-season of The Heart, produced by me, Caitlin Prest.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  I worked with an amazing team on this. Ariel Han is the assistant producer. Editors Sharon Mescheehe and Mitra Kaboli. Phoebe Wang, associate producer. Jen Ing, our designer. And special thanks to Samara Breger for joining us in the conversation you heard in this episode.

• 32:34Speaker 04

  The music you're hearing is from M. and the Fates. They just dropped a new EP. You can check it out at emandthefates.com. And if you'd like to support this show, which would mean so much because we're all,

• 32:50Speaker 04

  you know, we're basically scraping by. But we have a lot of fun, so, you know, it all works out in the wash. Anyways, the point is, buy some t-shirts or a poster. It'll make a difference in our lives. Go to our website, theheartradio.org, to make your purchases.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  This entire season is made with the support of the International Women's Media Fund and, of course, Radiotopia. Thanks to the Knight Foundation and Adzirk. Bye.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  There's no use fighting. You cannot hold me back now. The dawn is rising.

• 33:36Speaker 04

  Your old philosophy no longer suits me.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.