NO, Part Two: Inheritance

In the second episode of the series, we catch up to Kaitlin while she is in her mid-twenties, waiting to fall in love. Over the years she has become an expert at advocating for her own pleasure. She has learned how to say no to the sex that she doesn’t want to have with tact and grace. Just as Kaitlin thinks she has figured out the art of sexual negotiations, another unsettling experience becomes a catalyst for a search for answers.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  This is a CBC Podcast.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  I'm Caitlin Prest.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  And this is No, a mini-season. Episode two, Inheritance.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  What you're about to hear could potentially be really triggering, but could also make you feel less alone. In the last episode, I let you in on some formative moments from my girlhood. And this episode is about who that girl grew up to become.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  I fucked him like a champ. Seriously? The bed was in the middle of the room, and I had a urinary tract infection for like two weeks afterwards. Shit, dude, that's intense. Hello and welcome to this month's edition of Audio Smut. I'm in my twenties. I left my tiny little town for the big city. I live in NYC now.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  I make an artsy feminist sex radio show.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Third Wave Sex Positive Feminism tells me that I was on to something back in my teens. Adopting the same ruthless sexual posturing that boys are encouraged to would allow me to wield some of their power. If we fucked without feelings, we too could be free. Having slut pride would subvert the double standard, and it would force the world to recognize that women's sexual pleasure is real.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  The only problem is that I hate casual sex.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  To make up for it, I masturbate with abandon and tell the world about it.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Vibration penetrated my entire body. It felt like my feet. I've become an expert at advocating for my own pleasure. I know what I want and I feel entitled to it.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  I really want you to sleep over, but just FYI, I'm not secretly inviting you over to fuck. Is that cool?

• 2:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Are you sure?

• 2:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  After all these years, I've mastered the art of saying no.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Wanna lift? That's okay.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Be free to do this job that totally doesn't appeal to you?

• 2:51Speaker 02

  I don't think it's the right one for me. Hey baby, can I get a smile? Fuck off! Stretch yourself out from downward dog into plank.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  No. Hey, are you able to come out on Friday to my barbecue? Nope.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  I know now that what I'm looking for is love. Even though I know it's corny.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  The Avengers of Batman with Robin Roy Wonder.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  I'm on a big brown couch wrapped up in the arms of my friend Jay.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  You want another beer?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  No. His arms are really dude-ly. I'm trying my best not to like this more than our friendship would deem appropriate.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  I'm gonna have one.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  You want one?

• 3:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  You want another beer?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  I do.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  Cool. You'll get it. But of course, I can't stop myself from wondering if this friendship is the friendship. The right under your nose that whole time kind of friendship. Do you want a cigarette?

• 3:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  You do? Hi.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  Hello. It's me.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  I've been friends with Jay for eight years. It's like my oldest friendship.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Hey, are you okay? How'd the date go?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Jay and I have always kept it in our pants. And that's given way to this perfect friendly intimacy. We call each other babe and boo. We bitch about our relationship dramas. We have extensive G-chat conversations into the night and always sign off with the word love spelled in full.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  What do I do if I hate my current relationship?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  And that's good night. Night. Love you.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  With that being the case, there are, I think there are like great, great hookups that are just hookups, you know, like a great one night stand.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  I don't think we agree on this and that's fine. Let's just talk about something else.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  Alright.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  So... I've always thought he was hot. He looks a little bit like my cousin Robert. I had a forbidden crush on when I was a kid.

• 4:54Speaker 03

  Hey, do you still have that boyfriend?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Nah, broke up with that guy. It's the 4th of July. It's late. 11:30.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Hey, I got super sunburnt today at the beach.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  I get a text from him asking if I want to come over for a snuggle party.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Hey.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Hey.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  What's up? Hi.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  What's happening?

• 5:26Speaker 02

  We put on some music and sit on the bed. So this woman, she's so cool and she, we kind of have this thing in common where we're both really feminine people. And we were talking about how, like, she's not really used to making the move, but that she sort of creates the conditions in which a move can be made.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  No, that's bullshit.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Why?

• 5:47Speaker 03

  Because it puts like some weird power into that like submissive role that I just don't think is really there.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Are you serious? That's dumb.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  No.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Oh, really? You're gonna?

• 6:12Speaker 02

  He's kissing me.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  I'm, I feel like I'm kind of nervous.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Really?

• 6:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  That's cute.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  He's starting to undo my pants.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  It's too quick. Is it okay if we just make out?

• 6:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  He says yeah, but he keeps going. He's not reading me.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Hey, Jay. Is it okay if we? I don't wanna do such things.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, fine, whatever.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Sorry, I just have to pause the scene for a second and give you some information. So what you're hearing right now, if you hadn't already noticed, is a reenactment.

• 7:09Speaker 03

  Okay. Here we go.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, do it.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Hey.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  This is an actor.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Hey.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  His name is Tommy. And then I'll be like, hey, like, can you, can like, slow down a little bit?

• 7:19Speaker 03

  So it's almost, it's just like an, like, just ignoring it, basically? Like, not even hearing it?

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  He was pretty, like...

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Aggressive.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. In the making of this story, I called the real Jay to verify what happened that night. I also asked him if he wanted to write and reenact the whole story with me, but he didn't.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  Are you guys still friends?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Uh, well, we started being friends again since I called him and asked him if he would do an interview about, like, the weirdest night of our friendship. You're gonna hear more from the real Jay later. But what I need you to know right now, in this moment, is that what you're hearing isn't the real thing. I built this scene so that it sounds as close to the way that I remember it as possible. And then we'll kiss again, and it'll get kind of intense again, and then I'll say it again, and then you get kind of pissed at that moment. You say...

• 8:15Speaker 03

  Fine.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  Fine.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  I think I'm just gonna go to bed.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  I'm tired.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  I stare at the overhead light. I look at the clock.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Almost 1 a.m. The air is tense. I feel like it's my fault.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  But I know better than that. I should just go.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  But I don't.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  I'm frozen.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  I can't move.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  I'll come back.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  He's back at the zipper of my jeans.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Puts my hand on his dick.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  Wait.

• 9:28Speaker 05

  If you, how about like, okay, this is...

• 9:32Speaker 05

  What if you just like, go to the bathroom and, and just like, yank one out and come back?

• 9:38Speaker 03

  What?

• 9:41Speaker 03

  What?

• 9:42Speaker 05

  Cause then we can just make out and it'll be fine. Right? Just do it.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  Just touch it. Come on. Come on. Come on, just feel it.

• 9:55Speaker 05

  Dude.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  What?

• 10:10Speaker 02

  On the outside, I act like everything's fine, and on the inside, I give up. In the way that feels so familiar to me.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  I make myself come in front of him, so he can make himself come, and we can go back to having a nice night. I feel defeated.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  At the same time, I'm getting off.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  I'm really good at masturbating, so it's not hard for it to feel good.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  For a few moments, I forget that I feel like shit.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  I'm sad when I leave. I don't get angry until days afterwards.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  July 5th, 2013, I had the most vile experience with Jay last night.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  And then I'm so angry, I can barely write about it in my diary.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  Too angry!

• 11:09Speaker 02

  It's just a big scribble.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  I'm angry at so many things. I performed for him. I performed... I wanted him to be happy more than I wanted myself to be happy. He forgot about me. He was supposed to be my friend. My defenses were down. What the fuck? I thought this was a dumb high school dude thing. A college dude thing. I thought I was past this shit. I thought I'd practiced avoiding this shit. I'm fucking 27.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  It's true, he didn't force me to do anything. But I nonetheless felt like I had no choice. Why? Was that on me? Or is that on him?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  I begin to wonder if having sex I don't want is something I've absorbed from generations past. If it's something I've inherited from my four mothers.

• 12:01Speaker 05

  How do you say, "No, that's rude," or "That's not polite," or...

• 12:06Speaker 02

  This is my mom.

• 12:06Speaker 05

  "Why are you saying no? You're hurting the guy's feelings."

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Her friend.

• 12:11Speaker 06

  With someone who you're interested in, if you say no, are they gonna just give up and walk away? And then you're going, "Okay, should I just go along with it so I don't lose that? He could have been a great guy, but if he's that pushy, is he that great of a guy, right? Like, you balance that out. But I think that is where the challenge lies, is with, what if he then just walks away?

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Oh, so chill. Another friend of ours.

• 12:36Speaker 05

  I mean, it's subtle, because, you know, on the one hand, you're having attention. I mean, I was brought up as a female to want male attention. You know, that was a status symbol, actually. You know, if you were an attractive enough woman that you could get attention from men, that was considered an important thing. That was how you were maybe gonna end up finding a husband and having children and doing that really conventional stuff. So those ideas, they don't just, like, come up all of a sudden. You know, you're surrounded by that, your whole upbringing.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  And like, when was the first time that you've had an experience where you felt like you were allowed to change gears?

• 13:25Speaker 06

  I was in my late 40s. And he stopped and asked, are you sure this is what you want? I had never, ever, ever been asked that before. And I was like shocked. I didn't like, you know, speechless in responding to him because I never had been asked that before.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  By this point in my life, I felt strongly that I was different from my four mothers. That my generation would be different. But I talk to people my age and I hear the same attitudes, same feelings. He kept telling me that the reasons I was saying no were stupid.

• 14:09Speaker 05

  And I was drunk and crying, you know? A drunk crying girl generally wants to be consoled to some extent, but not with sex.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  I told him he couldn't fuck me and then his dick was in me, you know? And then I was like, oh, my God, for having sex? I thought we talked about this. And even then, the whole night was nice. That part was just sucked. How do I give him what he wants? In a way that's not terrible for me, but I can like deal with? It's like your gut instinct will tell you like, no, I don't want this. And say no in a cute way and then say no in a forced way and push. And then there was a point where you just like, it's like, I literally just gave up. Let's just let him have this now because I fought enough. And like, I don't want to make a scene. I don't want to wake up anyone. And like, you know, it's like, oh, my roommate's sleeping and she's gonna think I'm being like a slut on the couch.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  And like, it was like this mental gymnastics that you do to not tell yourself that you're not putting your needs first, but that like all these people matter so much.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  I talked to my 20-year-old cousin. She's almost a decade younger than me. Like my first boyfriend?

• 15:25Speaker 05

  I just wanted to please because I didn't know what I was doing. So I was just going for it and trying stuff and like not asking questions. And at the beginning, it's, oh, I want that person to like me. I want this to be fun for that person and not thinking about yourself and just being like, OK, I'm trying stuff.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  It makes me think of something that my best friend Laura said.

• 15:49Speaker 05

  I was talking about being a people pleaser and like how, and you said that that's how that's how women survive. Yeah. I think women survive by, yeah, being aware and reading social cues. And we know when someone's going to be angry. We know when someone might lash out. We know when someone's afraid. We know when somebody's sad. We know when somebody's happy. And we know when we're safe and we know when we're not safe. And sometimes, you know, there's the element of using sex as a social currency to stay safe and using sex as a social currency to belong in the group, even if the group is just you and one other person.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  I start to wonder if this is how anyone who's historically been on the shitty side of a power dynamic learns how to move through the world.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  How important it can be to be liked by someone who has your fate in their hands.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Sometime after the J night, I discovered something that brought me answers.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  When you lose someone you love, it's a complicated process, going through their things, settling their affairs, and figuring out what to do with the hole in your life that they have left. But you got to imagine it's more complicated when that person that you love was beloved by millions around the world. Adam Cohen, the son of the late legendary Canadian poet and songwriter Leonard Cohen, sat down with us in Montreal to talk about his dad. And he talked about learning his dad's songs for the first time and then singing them together with his own son. You can hear that conversation now on Q with Tom Power wherever you get your podcasts.

• 17:42Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  It sounds so different.

• 17:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  It sounds so cool.

• 17:47Speaker 04

  Is this what I'm gonna sound like?

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Isn't that the best? It was a recording, not a reenactment, an actual recording.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  I'd made this recording two years before the J night, when I was 25. In this recording, I'm sitting in a windowless bedroom with a guy named Raul. I'm doing an interview about intuition for the show. What is it?

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Well, a lot of times for me, intuition just means getting your mind out of the way and being observant.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  This guy, Raul, and I dated for a while. I smiled at him in a coffee shop and he'd ran down the street after me, asking if he could take me out sometime. I was charmed by him. But after a few weeks, he totally ghosted me.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  At the time of this recording, it's been months since we'd last spoken. And I did that dumb thing where I needed an interview for the show and I was like, "Oh my god, Raul! He would be perfect." So, here we are.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  When the interview ends, I leave the tape rolling because it's just good radio practice. Often, the most intimate parts of the interview happen after it's officially over. So, we're just sitting on his bed, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I don't want to have sex with him or anything along those lines. But we're flirting a little bit, and I'm enjoying it.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Are you way down?

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  I don't know if I feel like it.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, like a rescue.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  Like a massage.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  I'm down.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  Cool.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  I'm down for that. I like massages, but, um...

• 19:33Speaker 04

  I want you to start on your, right on your back.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  On my back? Oh, you can't turn off the lights.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  No, no, no, I'm not going to. I'm turning this one on.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  You can't try to seduce me.

• 19:43Speaker 04

  I won't, but I want you to lie.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  And you can't touch me in sexy places.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  No, I won't.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Um, do you promise?

• 19:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  Can I lift this up?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  This. All the way up?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, so breasts are up?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Breasts are off. Definitely.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  What about underbreast?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Underbreast is okay, but you have to be very like, you know, aware. Use your intuition.

• 20:18Speaker 04

  I will.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  But even if it seems like I want you to, you have to be nice and good, okay?

• 20:25Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  A massage to me is as intimate as a handshake, but I know that's not the case for everyone, so... I start to try to vocalize my boundaries and make sure that what's going on is cool for everyone here.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Can you, I, do you feel like you can do, like you can touch a woman without like, having, like feeling like you need to fuck her?

• 20:54Speaker 04

  Hmm, I don't know. What do you mean?

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. I mean, like, so for example,

• 21:04Speaker 02

  for example, right now, the way that you're touching me makes me feel like later I'm gonna have to tell you that I don't want to have sex with you. Do you know what I mean?

• 21:14Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  And I just wonder, like, if it's possible for, like,

• 21:24Speaker 02

  is it possible for men to feel like, to genuinely enjoy, like?

• 21:30Speaker 04

  I don't do anything I don't enjoy.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Right. Right. Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  But don't, but do you get off on like trying to change someone's mind?

• 21:50Speaker 04

  No.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  I get off on

• 21:57Speaker 04

  good stuff.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  This is the sound of me and Raul having sex.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  When I listen to this recording, I hear myself say "no" again, presumably when he tries to escalate to full-on penetration. Yeah. Don't. No.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  Feel okay now?

• 22:52Speaker 02

  I feel a little bit like...

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Weird, actually.

• 22:59Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah?

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I feel good, but mostly just because I said I didn't want to.

• 23:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, but aren't we just retarded when it comes to what we want?

• 23:14Speaker 04

  How do we know what we want? What part of you knows what you want? Is it your thinking analytical mind that knows what you want? No. How could it be?

• 23:26Speaker 04

  I mean, it doesn't make any sense. This isn't logical. We can only try to guess at what we want.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  After the post-coital cigarette, I didn't stay over, which is really unlike me. I walked home through a gray Bushwick warehouse land, angry at Raul for ignoring everything I said, at myself for totally folding when he pushed my line, and at my body for betraying me for enjoying the sex.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  I cut together the interview part of the recording we did, produced the intuition show, and left this recording silent in the archives for years. Until one shitty night, just like it, happened to me on the 4th of July with an old friend, Jay. In the months after the Jay night, I dug up this recording, and I listened closely to myself. I listened to the way that I actually sound in a night like this, where my boundaries are crossed. And you can't touch me in sexy places. When my best friend Laura listened to this, she said it definitely sounded like I wanted to fuck this guy. And if you take away the words and just listen to the sounds...

• 24:55Speaker 02

  This is probably exactly the way that I sounded when I was with Jay. Saying no in this sweet, seductive tone. I'm trying so hard to be nice and not hurt anybody's feelings that my no basically sounds like fuck me. But on the other hand, I wonder how many people sound just like this when they're getting hot and heavy with someone and they're trying to draw a line, express what they want in a way that doesn't break the flirtatious vibe, that doesn't negate the possibility of doing other things. I wonder how many people sound just like this when they're scared? I think this is why the definition of consent has evolved

• 25:38Speaker 02

  to mean more than no means no, or even yes means yes. Consent is about knowing that someone is excited about what's going on. It's about knowing that both people are on the same page. And it's knowing that knowing that is really complicated. Not just because communication is hard and sex ed is awful, but also because there are invisible social and historical contexts at play in these intimate moments. Contexts that impact how entitled we feel to our own comfort, how likely we are to put someone else's needs first. These contexts could be historical, like race, or class, or gender. Or they could be super situational,

• 26:21Speaker 02

  like when one person is a little bit in love with you and you aren't in love with them and you can totally sense that they'll do whatever you want.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  When things are uneven in this way, it's important to take extra care, to create an emotional environment that allows for a no.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  I didn't feel like I had that space in either of these encounters.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  But on the other hand, I should have been stronger in advocating for myself.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  I'm bummed because I thought, "I was over this shit, but it seems like I'm gonna be struggling with this for my entire life." And after all this contemplating, the anger that I have at myself slowly dissipates.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  And I start getting angry at Jay. I wasn't that angry at Raul because we weren't that close. But Jay and I were close. I expected so much more from him. I expected him to care more about the way I felt, in the same way that I had cared about the way he felt.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  I knew that the strong thing to do would be to talk all of this out with him.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Two days after the night, he G-chatted me.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  Hey, how was working yesterday? I ended up sleeping all day.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  And then, two days later.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Hey, how was the rest of your weekend?

• 27:54Speaker 02

  A month later, on my birthday.

• 27:56Speaker 03

  Happy birthday.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Thanks, darling.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  How are you, babe?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Two weeks after that.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Hiya.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Five days later.

• 28:09Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Same day.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Jay, what's up?

• 28:16Speaker 03

  Thank God you answered. I was getting worried you were actively ignoring me. How are you?

• 28:23Speaker 02

  I stay home every time our friends get together, and I know he'll be there. I try to tell our friends what happened, but when I say it out loud, it does sound like almost nothing.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  On the surface, we had what Jay would later call "a drunken night of masturbation failure." No big deal. The problem is that we don't have a vocabulary around emotion that would let me describe with any sense of legitimacy the totally invisible things that happened between us that night.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Don't, don't, don't, don't That's what you say It's time that I hold you this way

• 29:26Speaker 01

  When I feel like this And I want to kiss you, baby, don't say "don't" Don't, don't, don't, don't Leave my embrace For here in my arms is your place

• 30:08Speaker 01

  When the night grows cold And I want to hold you, baby, don't say "don't" Don't, don't, don't, don't

• 30:24Speaker 01

  If you think that this is just a game

• 30:35Speaker 01

  I'm playing If you think that I don't mean Every word I'm saying Don't, don't, don't, don't Don't feel that way I'm your love and yours, I will stay

• 31:19Speaker 05

  This you can believe, I will never leave you. Heaven knows I won't. Long. Maybe don't say long. Long. Please don't.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  In the next episode, I talk to people who are on the other side of experiences like this. I talk to people who do the pushing.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  There wasn't that point of interjection where she like said no before. And like, so I just went for it because I was like stupid and young.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  And I gather up the courage to reach out to Jay, the real one.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Yes. So what if, I don't know, why don't you?

• 32:22Speaker 04

  Do you want to start?

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Me?

• 32:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, well, what were you thinking? No is a serialized season of The Heart. There are two episodes to go. The season is produced by me, Caitlin Prest, with help from an amazing team of individuals. Ariel Han is the assistant producer for this season. Editors Sharon Mescheehe and Mitra Kaboli. Phoebe Wang, associate producer. Shani Aviram, who collaborated on the sound design and scoring for this episode. Jen Ng, who goes back and forth with me for hours trying to create the perfect visual representation of each episode. The art for this season is some of her best work. All of the extra ears that helped this piece along.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Stephanie Foo, Pike Malinowski, Nick Vanderkolk, Cassie Wagler, Ida Benedetto, Lindsay Kirby, Jennifer Custer-Jarosh, and Louis Wallace. Tommy Shell acted in this episode as Jay. Special thanks to Raoul, that's not his real name, who gave me permission to use the audio of us getting it on in this super complicated and weird way. Special thanks to my mom and the other incredible women who interviewed for this episode. Also, thanks to my Bobby, who never had any trouble saying no, so didn't end up in the final cut of this piece.

• 33:45Speaker 05

  Want to hear about my teenage years?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Yes. I just want to say, I guess I just, I know that there's a lot in this episode, and you might be feeling a lot of feelings. And there are probably a lot of things that you wish I said that I didn't say, or wish I addressed that I didn't address. And what I would really encourage you to do is to take all of your feelings and bring them into conversations that you have with other people about this topic, about this gray zone stuff. It's super important to talk about. And the more conversations we have, the farther we'll get.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  This entire season is made with the support of the IWMF, that's the International Women's Media Fund, and of course, Radiotopia NPRX. Thanks to the Knight Foundation and Adzirk. Bye.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.