Ex-Secret Service Agent Warns the Next 9/11 Won’t Be Planes

Former Secret Service agent Evy Poumpouras joins Patrick Bet-David. She was inside 7 World Trade Center when the first plane hit on 9/11, and she ran toward the towers, earning the Secret Service Medal of Valor. Over 13 years in the Secret Service, she protected five presidents and interrogated terror suspects. Now she’s warning where the next attack is likely to hit: America’s water supply, the power grid, the food on grocery store shelves, and drone swarms that the Secret Service is still working out how to stop, while foreign actors pay influencers to turn Americans against each other. ——— . 📕 Evy's BBC Maestro course: https://bit.ly/4yy53uU . 👞 Get the NEW Billionaire Suede Loafer: https://bit.ly/4ym5oRA . 👕 SHOP THE ICON COLLECTION: https://bit.ly/3TuUU3x . 👞 GET THE FLB1's: https://bit.ly/4mC4uf6 . Ⓜ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: https://bit.ly/4kSVkso . Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP . 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 . 🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj . 🇰 KALSHI: http://kalshi.com/pbd . SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @BetDavidConsulting @vtgenz @ValuetainmentComedy . ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I had one guy, um, he used to set animals on fire.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Can you share something without giving a name?

• 0:09Speaker 00

  You don't know people. Everybody thinks they know people. You don't know people, know that we want to. You don't really know human beings. I started off NYPD, went to the United States Secret Service, and then I protected all the different presidents. This is a person you're gonna give a gun to? Then you're gonna put them in the White House with the most powerful person in the world who's around them, other most powerful people in the world. You really, really, really have to be careful who you let in. And so someone like myself would come in and try to get either more information or a confession.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  From all the presidents you work with, Bush Senior, GW, Obama, Ford, you know, Clinton, what are the future threats?

• 0:50Speaker 00

  I will not, I can't answer that. And here's why.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  It's crazy to me. Is it because of what? Like the...

• 0:57Speaker 00

  It is naive. It is foolish. We are not living in reality. And this is why we are dealing with many of the issues we have now.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  You didn't give me the answer. If they did 9/11, what could the threat look like from the enemy?

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's things that you don't see.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 1:11Speaker 00

  I can't tell you.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Chevy, right? Not Chevy, Evy Poumpouras, right? The way you helped me understand how to pronounce it, I love it. Evy, like Chevy. Uh, but it's not every day you talk to somebody that was Secret Service for 13 years, protecting a handful of presidents, right? We have the two Bushes, the father and the son. Uh, Clinton, I think, is who you started off with, and then also Obama, in some sense with Michelle and President Ford as well, which is what a crazy story you got there. But there's a lot of things we're gonna be talking about today. Some of this stuff is current events. There was a Secret Service head that spoke to 60 Minutes this weekend, which I'm sure you watched as well. If you haven't, I got some questions there for you. Because he said threats are up 40% year over year. And he also said something

• 2:06Speaker 01

  about drones, how with drones, we don't know how to protect ourselves, which I don't know if that's a good idea to say that. But I got five words I want to go through with you in today's podcast. One is justification. The other one is consequences. Three is confirmation bias. The other one is vulnerability and threats. And last but not least is discernment. How do we distinguish between trustworthy people and those who are the dangerous ones? And I got a few cases I'm gonna bring up to you, and we're gonna analyze together. But if you don't mind, for the audience that doesn't know you, maybe share a little bit about your background.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Sure. So thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here with my fellow Armenian. I'm not Armenian, but...

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Aunt, that great aunt. What's her name, by the way?

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Azneev.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Azneev. Azneev. Much love to you.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  So much love to the Armenian community. Um, I, um, I started off NYPD, very, very short time there, went to the United States Secret Service, became a special agent, and in the US Secret Service, I started under the Clinton administration, and then I protected all the different presidents. The president that I had full time was Barack Obama, because there's, there's, the way it works is you'll have somebody full time, which means 24/7, and then, but you can't do that, though. Your whole career, you burn out. You're only allowed to do it for a window of time. And then you go out into the field, which means you help protect all the other presidents. But a lot of folks don't know that US Secret Service

• 3:25Speaker 00

  works criminal investigations. So they're, they're called a dual mission agency. So protection, and then criminal investigations, financial institution fraud, uh, bank fraud, counterfeit money, credit card fraud, any, uh, online to have, uh, the first cyber task force was called the Electronic Crimes Task Force. It was theirs.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Most people don't know that, by the way.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  They don't know it. And what's interesting is the United States Secret Service is one of the oldest law enforcement agencies. Marshals is first because they needed to catch fugitives. Then US Secret Service came. Abraham Lincoln created US Secret Service April 14th, 1865, the day he was assassinated. He created the US Secret Service to fight counterfeit money, because a third of the money in the United States of America was counterfeit funny money. So it was destroying the economy. So he created it...

• 4:13Speaker 01

  The day he was assassinated?

• 4:14Speaker 00

  And he, he signed, created the Secret Service.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Crazy fact.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  It is, it is. Years later, many years later, they picked up protection, because then US presidents were either getting, uh, there was attempted assassinations or assassinations, and then they started doing protection. That's how they work. But going back to that, so I work criminal investigations, protection. I was a polygraph examiner and interviewer for them. So I did their difficult interviews, interrogations. There was only about 30 of us in that unit. So it's a really specialized training, probably the best in the world. I have to give it to them. Like, they did a really good job training us. And so you also do the hiring, the HR. All the special agents have to take polis. And then I did terrorism interviews, either here or overseas. And then we would also help local police

• 4:59Speaker 00

  departments in the United States with their most difficult cases. So sometimes these departments, they didn't have the resources to do certain things, where they'd have a case and say, "We think he did it. We don't have evidence. Can you talk to him?" And so someone like myself would come in and try to get either more information or a confession. So I did that a number of years, and then, fast forward, today, I work at NBC. I'm their law enforcement analyst. So I cover national, national security, crime, criminal justice. So I need, basically, anytime there's a shooting, or an incident, or an attack, I go on air and I, I discuss it. So I cover that at NBC Studios at 30 Rock.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  So when you say they're the best, and there was only 30 of them, what, what, what did the training look like with the interrogation that makes them the best?

• 5:45Speaker 00

  So there's different polygraph schools, um, but the one that they send us to, it's a Department of Defense, Fort Jackson. So you train with the military.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  South Carolina.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  So are you there for, we were there for a few months, and you are there, it's us, FBI, CIA, um, and then some other, you know, NSA folks. Um, and we do training. So it's, I'll give you an example. Like, you have to study biology. So if you go to college, you'll have a semester of biology. There, they give you a week of biology, and you have a midterm and final. Like, they literally give you the text. And I remember getting it, thinking, "They're joking. There's no way. This is gonna be an open book test." Because they're like, "You have a, a final at the end of the week on this entire text." And I was like, "They're nuts." And then sure enough, we were all like, taking wagers, like, "Oh, it's gonna be open book." They're just gonna be like, "Hey, surprise, just kidding." Sure enough, you show up with the book, and they're like, "No, no, put the book away.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  You're, you're taking your test. You're, you're, there's no open book." And so you really had to consume content. I mean, they even teach you about pharmacology. So when somebody takes certain substances, what does that do to the body and to the mind? Because the polygraph looks at the body. So it was really, a really intense school. And then your training, every day, you're interviewing people, you're interviewing people. We would interview the, uh, military recruits. It was typically the ones that we're gonna send home that were unfit for duty. So we would interview them on different things, and, uh, practice interviews and polygraphs on them.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  What year were you at, uh, Fort Jackson?

• 7:15Speaker 00

  I, I think I was 2004, I think.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Okay, got it. I was there at 97, Fort Jackson. I was there for about a year at Fort Jackson. Uh, when I, I was the military guys, joining the Army and AIT, I was there.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, 97, 97.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  That's where you go for, that's where they bring the military guys for training, basic training.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yes, that's what they did. And I was there, uh, uh, now, we have to say 30 years ago, which is crazy, 29 years ago.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Well, thank you for your service.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Well, thank you as well, for yours as well. Yeah. So let, let's go into that. So discernment, I think one of the skill set that, you know, it, it's hard to learn, and we never get to 100%, because, you know, intuition and reading people, discernment. How does one get better at, uh, the intuition of reading somebody to see if this is someone I can trust and do business with, and this is somebody dangerous that I shouldn't do business with, or even have as a friend?

• 8:04Speaker 00

  Slow down. Everything doesn't have to be fast. The, the thing is, people make you feel like you have to respond right away. Especially today with texts, somebody sends you a text, and you feel, "I have to be fast. I have to respond." And you can be, but discernment, to have it, you can't be fast. You have to slow down. So if it's something where I'm like, "I'm not sure," or even if I feel like a weird way, or, or if, I, I listen to it. I listen to it. So I will give myself time to think and process and see how I feel. I mean, just think about how many times you go to respond to someone, or you, you responded, and afterward you think back, like, "Oh, I should have done it this way." I, when time passes, you think more rationally, number one. You've had more time to process. And

• 8:48Speaker 00

  then a lot of times, you even decide whether you want to respond or not. Most of the time, most things don't need a response. Not everybody needs a response from us, but we're made to feel like I have to respond to everybody. Uh, you're very busy, Patrick. I'm busy. So if I respond to everybody, I'm just, how much time am I gonna waste responding to you, to you, to you, to you? It's always like, who needs my attention, and when do they need it? So I guess, don't be so reactive. Discernment to me is like not being reactive. It's, it's like, I slow down, and I decide when to respond, how I want to respond, and whether I want to do it or not. And sometimes I may not have all the information. Sometimes, you know what? I just don't want to be rushed. I want to have a bit more composure over myself

• 9:31Speaker 00

  and my mind before I make a decision. That's me, discernment. And discernment's not saying yes to everything. It depends, though, on where you are in life sometimes. Sometimes with opportunities, if we're talking opportunities, you say yes to everything when you're starting off. But I mean, in general, you don't have to say yes to everything.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Interesting. So when you, it depends on the stage of your life. Early on, say yes to everything, because you don't know what it's gonna turn into. And then eventually, you become more selective. But how, what are, what are some, three, three signs I can get when I'm looking at somebody, doing business with somebody, after three months, six months, that I can tell this person is somebody I should invest in and go a little bit deeper with the relationship, or I should cut them?

• 10:08Speaker 00

  One, do they show up on time for your meetings? I don't care if it's a Zoom. I don't care if it's in person. If they're not on time, that tells you, I kind of, the way, there's, everyone, it's interesting. Everyone's like, big on, "I want respect, I want respect." The way you show somebody respect is, "I respect your time. I respect you and your time. You shouldn't be waiting for me." So if somebody has me waiting for them, I just, I just mark it in my brain. I just remember it. It depends who it is. I just remember it. So it tells me, like, I'm not as important to them. Um, do they take feedback well? So if I'm going back and forth, do they take feedback well?

• 10:45Speaker 00

  And then the other thing is, this is a big indicator, and I was actually talking with Anthony about it before. Does, do what people say match up with what they do? People talk a lot. Everyone's a talker. I look at what they do. If you said you're going to do this for me, did you do it? Or did you give me lip service? Or did you forget? So I match what you say with what you deliver. Those two things are in harmony. If I get talkers, I don't respond. If you say, hey, Evy, I'm gonna do this for you, and I give you access to something, and it's, you're supposed to review it and get back to me, and I don't hear from you, and

• 11:26Speaker 00

  I hear from you two months later, and that wasn't the understanding, or three months later, I'm checked out.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  So in the recruiting process that you're going through, last we got a fellow here, John McPhee, who was a former sergeant major in the Army. He was a Delta Force for many years. They call him Shrek. The guy's a very well-known guy in the military. And one of the things we talked about is the recruitment process of getting into Delta Force, okay? And how you get recruited into it. When you're going into the recruiting of doing what you do with Secret Service, what are the red flags? What do they look for? What do they say? Is there a pattern of the types of personalities they recruit?

• 12:06Speaker 00

  So I did, I actually was part of HR. So when we did polygraphs, you had to take a polygraph and pass it to be in the US Secret Service. And that's, it was typically the last phase, or towards the last phase of the process. So they had to eventually get to me, and then sometimes it would be like, look, this person's cleared everything, something's off. But we can't figure it out, so they come to me and say, just, just let us know. So here are a couple of things I would see in hiring. One bigger flag is just the, most people either lie or exaggerate on resumes. Just know that. If time is missing on a resume, if you see gaps, sometimes people can leave that off because they were fired or let go. So gaps of time.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  They would also look at, and I don't know how deep you can go in the private sector, depending who you are, obviously credit checks, your net worth, they would look at that. So if somebody's got massive amounts of debt, that's a red flag, right? You're looking at someone who's not responsible, can't pay off their debt, maybe, I'm not saying that they would, but taking money, you know, that's a person might be more susceptible of role in the world to taking money. So they would look at our net worth, how much we owed versus how much we were worth, our credit history as well. Even if, they would even look at if you were kicked out of somewhere, like evicted from a residence, civil lawsuits, if you were part of any civil lawsuits in any which way. The big mistake people who hire, that they make is they don't ask questions, they're

• 13:35Speaker 00

  not nosey, and they feel bad asking questions.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  So be nosey.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  You should be nosey. You're bringing this person into your company, and a big issue that companies are having today is they hire virtually, so you have deep fakes. And people don't even think about the outside threat coming in. Not just like hiring a good person, if you're lucky to meet the person one-on-one, that's one thing, but deep fakes, or even hiring people that will infiltrate your company. There's companies now, big tech companies, they have big issues with having people in the company, because they're asking very like job skill questions. Can you do this? Can you do that? Like skills, but they're not looking at the overall human being. So the one wonderful thing that the United States Secret Service did is they looked at the totality of you. It was not whether you had the skill set or not.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  In fact, most of us didn't even have a criminal justice degree. But we brought something special, I spoke languages, so I had that, that helped me get in my foot of the door. Criminal justice, like, they teach you everything in training, but they would look at your background. I owed, I had paid off a collection bill when I was super young, I might have been seventeen, eighteen, it was a hundred twenty-five dollars, I paid it off, but it still rang in my credit report. They sat me down, they're like, hey, what's this hundred twenty-five dollars you owe? They went to my schools and references. People don't check references. Ask questions, be nosey. Make people answer you, but when I went to apply for the job, I studied overseas a lot.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  And at one point, I studied in Rome, I did, I was at the American University of Rome. They sent a special agent to the American University of Rome, Rome, to speak to my professors. What kind of student was she? Was she on time? Did you have problems with her in the classroom? So I'm not telling you that you, most people can't do that deep of a dive, but you should look at the whole human, and any inconsistencies. I'll give you an example, once I was gonna have somebody work for me, and they gave me a legal agreement. Hey, if I wanna work for you, it was for a certain position, but this is outside, this is post-US Secret Service, they gave me an agreement, and I read the agreement, and in my head, I'm like, first of all, a lawyer didn't write it, you did, this is ChatGPT AI, you could tell. So I didn't like that, because it's like, oh, it's for my lawyer, and I knew, I'm like, I may not be a lawyer, but I know that you, a lawyer didn't write it. Red flag.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  I don't like being misled. That's one. Two, in the agreement, it said, we had agreed on a price. It's like, hey, this is what I would like, I said, I'll give it to you face value. I didn't even negotiate, I'll give it to you, I wanna earn that amount. But in the legal contract, it's like, oh, I'm waiving my other fees. I read it in the, so it's like, you're gonna pay me this, but I will waive my other fees that I normally charge, blah, blah, blah. So in my head, I'm like, why would you put that in there? And when I asked the person, why did you put that in there? Oh, my lawyer put it in there, but why would you put it in there? What fees are you waiving? Oh, that's for later. So the moment I heard that, I'm like, I'm gonna have a problem. This person's coming in, and they're already telling me I'm undercompensated, and I gave you the amount you initially asked for, which was like, let's say, ten K.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  I gave you ten K, but now you're telling me in your contract, well, I'm waiving it.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Is it gamification that bothers? Is it the manipulation? Is it like, I'm trying to do leverage, like, I'm doing you a favor? Is that, is that the part that bothered you?

• 16:47Speaker 00

  No, it's, it's not being, it's hiding it in there. It's like, if I tell you this, you have to trust people on their word.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Doesn't she know who you are? Like, why would she do that? Is that just a lack of competency on her end?

• 17:01Speaker 00

  I think people don't think, I think people think when they do agreements, like, this is how they are, and I look at very like the honor of working with someone, like, I have to be able to trust you. And so if you feel like you can't trust someone, then just don't bring them on. Companies, and I do a lot of keynotes and training for companies, ask me, come on, the biggest problem they have is once they get a problem, forget it. A problem person just corrupts everything, hurts the company, and not only that, you end up giving all your time and energy as a boss or supervisor to what? The problem person. And you're neglecting everybody else, because you're dealing with this issue. And so you, you really want to minimize bringing in problem people, or maybe bringing them on a temporary basis, almost like test driving employees, before you're like, I'm hiring you?

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Just be like, hey, we're gonna bring you on a three-month probation. US Secret Service and NYPD does the same thing. It's a probation period, so that they can get rid of you anytime they want.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  What percentage of guys do they get rid of, on the probation side?

• 17:57Speaker 00

  NYPD probably more so than US Secret Service. US Secret Service, think of it this way, NYPD, my class of training is fifteen hundred. US Secret Service is fifty-four. So US Secret Service, like, literally hand-plucks you. They're picking you, they're really, because they're investing a lot more money in you to send you to training, and they don't wanna lose you, so they wanna make sure you can also pass training, they don't want people to just kick out. US, NYPD's a bit more, I don't wanna say an assembly line, but they'll do a map bigger net, and then in training, they're just weeding people out. They're just like, goodbye, gone.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  So one is quantity, the other one is quality. And for Secret Service, are they recruiting you, or you're approaching them?

• 18:36Speaker 00

  You approach them. They'll go to like job fairs, or they go to universities to get the word out, because there's agent and there's uniform division. So they're two different things, but they're all US Secret Service, they work together. So they'll hold job fairs, or they'll go to universities to speak, but for the most part, you go to them. You have to think of it like this, Patrick, like, that's not a job that's gonna be like, oh my God, you look amazing, I think, I mean, it's not like the movies where you think like they're gonna recruit you because they think you're special. Nobody's special in those jobs. Nobody. It's everybody, what do you bring? What value do you bring? And you work as a team. Because that whole concept sometimes, and I get heat for it, but authenticity, you're so special, I have to cater to you. If you're in a mission-focused entity, that brings the whole system down, because it's

• 19:21Speaker 00

  now, the focus is on me, the individual, and you're reinforcing that. You matter more than the team matters. And you create an imbalance. And now, good luck trying to fix that.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  But are there automatic elimination in the process for candidates in Secret Service? Like, if this person has these five things, you're out? Like a non-negotiable?

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Drugs. Drugs was a big thing that I'd see people get, we would call it BQ-aid, a lot of, if you have drugs in your background, I'm not saying no drugs, and I wanna be careful, because there's a hiring process here, but drugs was the biggest disqualifier, and a lot of times, people, when they were young, did a lot of things, and sometimes it can carry into the future. So if you had excessive drugs, or you had certain things with certain drugs, that would be the number one thing.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Any drug, was it like not, was it weed, cocaine?

• 20:10Speaker 00

  The problem now, weed's legal in some places. Like, you go to New York, you smell it everywhere you go. I think it's, they give you some time, like, let's say you did it now when you were seventeen, but you're twenty-five now and you're applying, there might be a bit of space, but they, you have to be honest. If you lie, you're done. Even NYPD, I remember when I went through the recruitment process, I remember the, one of the recruiters taking my hair, like, I remember, I was like, cut from the bottom, and they cut like a big swath of hair all the way up to my root to test my hair.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  They cut your hair?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Yes, because the hair holds drug use longer than any other part of the body. Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  And they do that with everybody?

• 20:51Speaker 00

  I don't know if they do it now, when I went in, they, I remember, I was like, cut at the bottom.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  And so what was the process like? They said, we're gonna cut your hair?

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Yes, for drugs, it's your drug test. It's your drug test. Because if you just do urinating in a cup or whatever, that only holds a window of time, the hair collects, has more time. So I can look a little bit further back.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Do they still do it today?

• 21:13Speaker 00

  NYPD, I do not know. I do not know.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  The Secret Service?

• 21:17Speaker 00

  Secret Service, the polygraph was the weapon there. Most, NYPD does not polygraph, not all police departments polygraph. Here's the way the polygraph works. You tell me, let's say, no, I've never done any drugs. Are you sure you've never done any drugs? Well, you know, maybe one time. So we'll have a conversation, you'll tell me about it, or whatever it is that you're worried about. Then after we're done, okay, other than what you've told me, Patrick, have you done this? No, and that's when I sit you in the polygraph chair, I ask you these questions.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  And then we see if you pass the polygraph. If you pass it, it means you've been truthful up until this point. But drugs is probably the biggest thing I would see people get kicked out. And then sometimes like deviant behavior when people are young.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  It does.

• 22:02Speaker 00

  I had one guy, um, he used to set animals on fire. Cats.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Who would hire that person, period?

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Right, but I have to ask questions to find out. He didn't come out and say it. I go through his paperwork. I look at stuff. I start asking questions.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  He set cats on fire?

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Yes, I got him to specifically tell me what animal.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  For some people, that's a hiring. That's like a good sign because dogs is a red line, but cats.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  I don't want any animals because to me, if you're, and don't think it doesn't, deviant behavior, like even when you look at crime, because I know you guys analyze current events and different things, deviant behavior begins at a younger age, but it starts in small moments, right? Small behavior. And it's usually the violation of somebody's personal boundaries. I do something to violate your safe space. And I use that term like my behavior violates you in some way, causes you harm. And you see it in children. And if you don't correct it, it escalates. So my cat guy, I don't think he started one day just setting a cat on fire, the whole thing. It just came up poking it, hurting it, maybe cutting a nail off, doing something. And then that behavior escalates and escalates and escalates.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  How did you, did you confront him because you knew or he told you?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  I didn't know. He was, he was looking for a job. He was one of our applicants.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  But how did that come up? The cats?

• 23:19Speaker 00

  I ask, one of the questions you ask, and this actually came up in a, with FBI, I think recently in the news, we ask about relationships to animals. So if you have relationships with animals, some people have inappropriate, personal relationships with animals.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Inappropriate?

• 23:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, like sexual relationship with animals. It's called bestiality. I ask that.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  You have to ask that question?

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  What percentage of people have inappropriate relationship with animals?

• 23:48Speaker 00

  It depends what part of the country you're in. Usually east coast or west coast, very low. Middle America tended to be higher.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  So you, crazy to me. Is it because of what? Like the?

• 24:02Speaker 00

  I think, I'm gonna tell you this, like you don't know people. Everybody thinks they know people. You don't know people. And the one thing I learned is you don't, you can't vouch for anyone, although we want to, you don't really know human beings. And so my job was to make sure that this was a healthy human being, a safe human being. This is a person you're gonna give a gun to, multiple guns, right? Automatic weapon, because we had auto weapons that could fire automatically shotgun, they're gonna have access to that. Then you're gonna put them in the White House with the most powerful person in the world who's around them, other most powerful people in the world. So you really, really, really have to be careful who you let in. So behavior towards animals, whether it's sexual contact or relations with animals, or abuse towards animals.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Okay, so this guy.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Am I like completely?

• 24:47Speaker 01

  No, no, I actually love this. But is this guy, did, did he eventually say, yes, I did kill cats when I was younger?

• 24:55Speaker 00

  So I'd ask him about his behavior. And we had a list of, did you engage in this? And so sometimes, sometimes people might tell you, sometimes people might give you an indication. So if I'm talking to you, let's say Patrick, and the whole time you're looking down while I'm talking to you, I'll leave you alone. I'll let you look down. But if I go to a topic and then all of a sudden you look up and make eye contact with me, I'm gonna say, why, why'd he just do that? Or if you're sitting like this the whole time and then I ask you the question about the animal and then you start doing this with your hand, I might notice those small things. They're small. It doesn't mean you're lying, but it does tell me you don't like this question and I need to figure out why. What most recruiters

• 25:37Speaker 00

  do is they get their list. This is for my HR folks, listen up, you get your list, you go through your questions, you're not even looking at the person. Look at the person. If you don't like the way they answer, or it just seems off, just ask follow up questions. Tell me a little bit more about that. Don't call out what you see. Hey, when I asked you that question, you said, don't do that, because that's their tell and you want to have their tell. Do not correct behavior. But it is your job to ask more questions and more questions. And so you get people to tell you a story. The other thing you can do in the beginning of interviews is just, can I offer you something? Can I get you a drink? Can I get you a snack? Would you like anything? Make small talk. And one thing that also helped out when I did interviews is I had the person's info, even when we

• 26:21Speaker 00

  did arrest, I knew all the other person's info. I had their name, their date of birth, their address. But you know what I did? I went with a blank sheet of paper. Hi, nice to meet you. What's your name? Spell that for me. What's your date of birth? I would ask them questions I knew the answers already to because I'm trying to understand who they are when they are in a relaxed, non-threatening environment, unless, of course, they're lying to me about who they are. But usually your name, your date of birth, your social, I'm not threatened by those questions. So I get to see you as, as you. Then I shift to the job-related questions. And then I will see a shift happen. And then when those shift happens, I'm like, at what point did your behavior change when I asked you about drugs? When I asked you about animals? When I asked you if you've ever been fired from a job?

• 27:04Speaker 00

  Ask people, have you ever been fired? Have you ever been let go?

• 27:07Speaker 01

  And you know this already when you're asking the fired part?

• 27:10Speaker 00

  No, a lot of times I don't know anything because people lie. You know, look, if you really want that job, you can be a good human being. Like, look, I really want this job. But if I tell them I did this most drugs, I'm afraid I won't get hired. They would look at it as an integrity thing. A lot of times I would see people lie. And had they told the truth, they would have gotten the job. But some people lie. And then it comes out. And then at that point, it's like, look, you already took your poly, you lied. It's an integrity thing.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  So at what point did you find out with this guy that he was killing cats?

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Polygraph. That was.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  In the polygraph?

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  And it's just a question?

• 27:43Speaker 00

  I'm like, hey, tell me about your relationship with animals.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  And he said, I've killed cats before.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Yes, not exactly. We, we had to get to that point.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  My dad would never be able to be a Secret Service agent because he can't stand animals. His mother had 12 cats, two dogs, two pears, two snakes, and all these pigeons. All his siblings love animals. His kids love animals. My dad cannot stand animals. If they touch him, it drives him insane. And we love cats and dogs. So if dad's watching this right now, you would never be able to be a Secret Service agent.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  As long as he doesn't harm, we're looking.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  He harmed one of them. We were Iran, we were in fourth floor, and we had secretly been hiding a cat in our apartment. My mom, my sister knew about this. He comes in, he smells it. He smells it. He's getting allergic. So he finds out there's been a cat living in this place for like a week. He went outside, put some martedella with hot sauce, cat ate the martedella hot sauce, never came back ever again. So you can't hire my dad. He's 84 years old, but it'd be, it'd be a difficult hiring process. So today, in the corporate side, when you're hiring, like that one lady you were talking about, the contract, say $10,000, all this stuff, and she put those things in the contract. What interview questions do you ask with somebody that's gonna be a high level of hire? Are there two or three questions you ask in every one of your interviews?

• 28:58Speaker 00

  I think you can ask, one thing you can ask is, why do you want to work for me? I think that's an important question. And so I actually used to ask that in the polygraph. And why do you want to become a US Secret Service agent? And I'll give you an example. And you usually get two types of answers. I want to be an agent because I want to challenge myself. I want to see what I can do or if I can make it. And another type of answer would be, I want to serve. I want to do something greater than myself. I want to serve my country or be of, I believe in the cause. What's the difference here? Do you think? Between these two folks? What's the difference?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Between the cause?

• 29:33Speaker 00

  This guy who wants to do it for whom?

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Him, himself.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  And this person who wants to do it for what?

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Mission over, you know, that's a we, that's a me.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Thank you. So that's just something to pay note, to pay attention to.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  So if you ask the question, why do you want to work for me? What answers are red flags?

• 29:52Speaker 00

  If the person's very focused on themselves, I just would just pay attention to that. Because that's a person who's like, I, I, it's, I'm a me person, not a team person. And, and that is going to be difficult. If I come in really with this microcosm of like me, me, me, me, me, and I don't understand, or I'm not about the collective group, then that lets you know that this person could be an issue later on, that they're really focused on themselves. I mean, look at, I don't have to tell you how many, how long do people stay on jobs now?

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Not a lot.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Before they leave. Exactly. Why are they coming in? How much money am I gonna make? My students, I was an adjunct professor about a decade, City University of New York. And I taught criminal justice, criminology, psychology. And I would have students come up to me, sometimes ask me about the Secret Service. Anytime I had a student ask me, hey, how much does a Secret Service agent make? I'm interested. You know what I would tell them?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Not for you.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Not for you.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  That job is not for, if you're looking to make money, go do something else. That job's not for you. So, these are indicators that can show you the type of person you're bringing. That's, that's one thing to look at. I would really look at gaps or spaces in the resumes and I would ask them, "Tell me about this job. Why did you leave this job?" Always ask why they left. "Why did you leave? Why did, you know, what happened?" That's when you can find out where they fired and they're not telling you.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Those are things. It doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't hire a person. I really look at the integrity of a person. If somebody's gonna tell you the truth, to me, that speaks volume. If they're being evasive, then I would be careful, because I also look at it this way. If you're gonna lie to me about the small things, and that's to get the job, what are you gonna do when you get the job and you mess up, because you will mess up?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  You're gonna lie about other things.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  It's gonna happen. We just went through this a few months ago. We were hiring a guy, very excited about him. We've done a handful of interviews with him, and he says he graduated from a very big school in America, very, very big school, school you and I would know about. And then we went through the background check process and we contacted the school. Never went to the school. He says, "Well, I'm gonna get the degree for you. I have it. I'm moving." No problem. Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Monday, never heard back, never. But with AI, this is a part of it why I think nowadays, an interview AI being a good filter, because there's no bias. We noticed in our company where our HR, a lot of them were from Jersey. So, next thing you know, we're hiring all these people from Jersey.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  I'm like, "Why do we have so many people from Jersey?" I went and found that three of the people that worked in HR that are hiring people are all from Jersey. So, the moment you would say, "I'm from Jersey." "No way. Me too. What part? Get out of here." So, there was an emotional connection, not necessarily if they would do the job better than a guy that's from Kentucky or Tennessee, right? So, we added the interview AI component to the hiring and it spits out a score. There is no emotional connection. Is it a fit with culture? Is it a fit with skill set? Is it a fit with experience? And then that would be one of the indicators outside of the other interviews that we do individually. So, question, you've got five different types of personalities. Which of these types of personalities

• 32:57Speaker 01

  tend to be the ones that you trust the least? Okay? And you may, your answer may be a different answer than I'm expecting. One is the charmer, super charismatic, super charming. The other one is the victim. There's always somebody that's something bad to them. "It's my mom. It's my dad. It's my boss. It's my ex. It's my this." Three is the intimidator. They want to intimidate you, like gain power over you in the meetings. Four is the narcissist, and five is the people pleaser. They're always trying to please everybody and conform. From your experience, which of these five are the most dangerous ones?

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Okay. Charmer is definitely dangerous. And here's the thing, I'm gonna, and I always hear people say, "Oh, learn how to charm people." Can I ask you a question? Why? Why do you want to charm people? Is that not a manipulation tactic? Why do I have to charm you? Why can't I be a genuine human being? Charmers, you see this in antisocial personality disorder. Antisocial personality disorder is the disorder where we see psychopathic or sociopathic behavior, which is the term most people understand. They're charmers. Why do I have to charm you? When it's like, what, if you naturally are a charming human being that is part of who you are, your DNA, wonderful. But when people like, "I, I wanna charm others. I wanna be the most charismatic person in the room." I, I don't want you.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  First of all, me, me, me, me, me. You're, you're, you're, and that's a, that's a manipulation thing. I'm going to manipulate you to think I'm charming when I, just be genuine. That's one. So, I don't like the charmer. The victim's a problem, um, because it's everybody else's fault, never your fault, and you can't work with that. I want accountability. The one thing I learned to your Secret Service, accountability. Nobody cared. Uh, like especially if you were in charge and there were times where I might give instruction to my team, my team would not follow it. You have that person, everybody has that person that didn't follow or listen, and then there's a problem now with the mission or the assignment, who's in charge? I am.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  And when I go to my higher up, he, he doesn't want to hear like, "Well, it's his fault. Well, it's her fault." It's like, "It's your fault. Fix it." So, I don't want to work with the victim, um, because nothing's their fault. I want someone who takes accountability. The intimidator, that person's probably somebody who had their lunch money stolen one too many times when they were a kid. Why do I have to intimidate people?

• 35:20Speaker 00

  I'm hungry. My stomach growling.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  You want me to get you something or are you?

• 35:25Speaker 00

  I'm all right.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Protein bar?

• 35:26Speaker 00

  I do it after, I eat after interviews.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Okay, all right.

• 35:29Speaker 00

  We did it with search warrants too. I, we always ate after we did search warrants, arrest warrants.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  The intimidator tends to be a person who's insecure, and they don't have very good emotional regulation. So, if I have to intimidate you because I'm insecure, so I need to make sure I'm extra, because I'm worried that you're not gonna listen to me. I don't want that guy either, or girl. The narcissist, I'm just gonna say this with this term. Everybody's a narcissist today. I hear everybody, like, first of all, it's a disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder. You must be diagnosed to be narcissistic personality disorder. I can have narcissistic traits, because there's certain criteria you have to hit to be true narcissistic personality disorder.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Most people are not. However, we do see a rise in narcissistic behavior because of the way people are, I think today, you know, "You're special. You're this. You're that. Be authentic. Be you." And, and it's very focused on the self and less on, you know, "How does your behavior impact community? How does your behavior impact teams?" We're not teaching that today. Today is like, "You! You're super special. You can do it all." And what that's doing is creating a more narcissistic type of population. "I deserve this. I'm entitled to this. I should get this," and less of, "What can I, less of, 'What can I do to be of value to my community, to my society, to my team, to my home, to my family?"

• 37:02Speaker 00

  So narcissistic, I would just be careful with that one.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  But you, you, you're not as worried about the narcissist as the charmer, the victim, or the intimidator?

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Because the charmer's a very specific thing, and the narcissist, here's why I'm not worried about it, because well, if a person's diagnosed as narcissistic personality disorder, yes, it's a problem. But if you're just saying that's a narcissist, that means nothing to me.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  But if this is a person that's diagnosed.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Then you have a red flag. In fact, in the NYPD, at the time when I went in, they made you take a test that was similar to the MMPI-2. That's a test that checks for personality disorders. Uh, and they would also look at, to see if you had narcissistic personality disorder, any type of disorder that would be of danger for you to carry a gun.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  Look, this narcissist is a very self-focused person. It's gonna be a problem. I don't, I don't want the narcissist either. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to sit and compete with you. I want to work with people. I also, narcissist is gonna have a hard time hearing critique or criticism. That, that's the issue with that. You want someone who can hear like, "Hey, this report you did, it's not accurate. I need you to fix it," not, "Hey, you suck." Whereas like, or they're gonna come back. It's like, I don't, I don't want to hear, I want you to fix what's incorrect. In fact, when I do the news at NBC, almost every producer I work with, I tell them, I'm like, "When I am done, I always want you to tell me what I can do better." Because I want to get better.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  Is there something I can do better? A narcissist is typically not gonna ask you something like that.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  And then the last one.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  People pleaser.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, the people pleaser.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  That's my least worried, because I feel like that person, you can give them a little bit more confidence. You can, you can guide them. They're really gonna work hard for you. So, as long as you don't take advantage of this person and you don't let others in your organization take advantage of them and you give them confidence, this person you can somewhat work with, because they really wanna help and give. So, I value that, so long as it's not detrimental to the company.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Okay. So, which one would you put as the worst? The one that concerns you the most out of all of them?

• 39:12Speaker 00

  I can't pick one. They're all, they're all, charmer, victim, and intimidator. I don't like any of those guys.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Those three specifically.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  And I don't like narcissist either. If I have a true narcissist, I just, you know what it is? I don't, you don't, you don't have time to deal with that. These people are gonna take a lot of time, energy, and effort. The thing with the charmer, it's, there's a deviant aspect to the charmer. That's why, to me, it's the most dangerous one. They're, they're trying to charm you. "Why do you need to charm me? What are you trying to get from me?" That it's a manipulation thing.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Okay. So, now you were Secret Service and you spent a lot of time with presidents, and to win elections, it's a very different election today than pre-Nixon Kennedy. Pre-Nixon Kennedy, you just had a good voice and you could speak monotone, nobody cared. Today, you have to charm the audience to win, right? So, from all the presidents you worked with, that you spent a lot of time with in rooms, the Bush Senior, GW, Obama, Ford, you know, Clinton, who was the most charming out of all of them?

• 40:07Speaker 00

  They were all different. I think President Clinton was very good at engaging the audience. I don't want to say he was a charmer. I just think he, but he was natural. It wasn't manufactured. He'd walk into a room, it'd be a thousand people, and if he talked to you, you felt like he was just talking to you. So, he's very good at that. He was also very good, I noticed, at repeating people's names when he met them. So, he, you know, you'd say, "Hi, I'm, I'm Patrick," and he would say, "Oh, hi, Patrick. So nice to meet you. Where are you from, Patrick?" "Oh, oh, oh, I love that area, Patrick. Oh, do you know so-and-so?" Like, so, so for the people that say I'm terrible with names, this is all you have to do. In fact, there's brain scan studies done, that when people hear their name, their brain lights up.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  It gives them a oxytocin hit. Makes them feel good. So, it's a really great way to build a genuine, authentic connection by just showing someone, "I heard, you told me your name and I, I'm making an effort to remember it." So, I think President Bill Clinton was the best at really connecting and engaging people, and he liked it. It was not fake. It was not fake.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Organic.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Oh, every time we had him, we were always very, and I think I can share this, we were always like, "Please don't stop to talk to people." Because he would always love to stop to talk to people and shake people's hands, and for us, that was a nightmare. "I want to get you from the car to this door, and to the stage, and then done." But along the way, he'd be like, "Oh, hey! Oh, who's behind this door? Oh, hey, let's go say hi to these people." And he was, and so it would make him late, because he wanted to engage people. We always try to keep crowds of people as far away from him as possible, because he would always want to go shake their hand, but it, it was who he was.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  How, uh, how different were the others?

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Everybody has their own special thing. I remember George Bush Senior. He was notorious for writing people handwritten notes.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Old school.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Yes, if you met with him, and this is the President of the United States, if you met with him and came to his office, he would send you a note card. "Thank you for taking the time to meet with me. It was such a pleasure." And you know, I had a boss, a big, a high up supervisor in the United States Secret Service who did that. He would write us all notes. And say, "Hey, Bravo, I'm, I'm, I'm so happy you did a great job on this assignment."

• 42:22Speaker 01

  We had, uh, President Bush at one of our events in 2019.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  Senior or junior?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Junior. And after the event was over with, we did the interview, great conversation, 6,000 people in attendance, Kobe was there as well, Kobe Bryant. And, uh, a week later, I got a card from him. And it was, "Hey, Patrick, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you." And a note is still in my office, on my, if you go to my office, the pictures are with he and I. And a note he sent me. And it's small little things like that. You, I, I read stories about Clinton that when he ran for office the first time president, he had collected 20,000 names and addresses, and apparently he sent every one of them a letter saying, "I'm running. I love your support." Uh, what would you say about the Obama or, uh, the Junior?

• 43:07Speaker 00

  I don't remember if President Obama did that, but he was very engaging with people too. Like, he would talk to people, he would listen. There, there was a genuineness to all of them. Like, they were just themselves, but they each had something that they would give. Look, President Obama, he would line up, take people's photos. He would be present. He would be present. He might not get distracted as President Clinton would, but I would see him, he would shake hands, he would talk to people. They, they cared to make a genuine connection. I don't, I don't care what side you're on, like, to become President of the United States, there has to be something unique and special about you. Like, you're no dummy.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Like, you're not gonna get to that place by mistake.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Were they, did you see certain things where they were different in public than they were private? Like, oh my God, today was a long day. Or was it, was it a high level of consistency of public and private?

• 43:59Speaker 00

  I mean, they're human, they're tired, there's things that they would deal with, or sometimes you would deal, you know, they would deal with people who would speak very ill of them publicly, and then they would see them personally, and the person would be very different towards them. It's like, and it usually was not them, it was the outside world that did it. So you'd see like a member of Congress who would just shred them on national news, and then they'd show up for like a picnic at the White House. Um, actually, this happened to President Barack Obama, I, I wrote about it, so it's okay to share. Um, because it was cleared by the, the service, but he, I remember he was working late at the Oval. And then he finished, he was gonna walk back to the residence, because there was a congressional picnic.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  And as I'm walking down the Oval, col- colonnade with him, somebody comes, and they had IDs on, so I knew that they were there, like, to get on the White House complex. You're, you're vetted. But I didn't know who he was. And it was, "Oh my God, Mr. President, how are you? This is my wife, this is, these are my kids," and and the President just showed him the same gesture. "Oh, so wonderful to meet you. What school are you going to?" So I'm like, "Oh, they're close." "And can we take photos together?" And then, at some point too, the, the person's behavior, which I didn't know this was a congressperson yet, was very like, uh, I don't wanna say groupish, but a little, "Oh, Mr. President, Mr. President, my, my wife, my daughter, my kid," and I'm thinking, "Guy, he doesn't have time for, he's busy, he's being very gracious to you already." Kinda leave him.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Then when we leave and we go in the elevator to go back up to the residence, he's like, "You know, that guy said horrible things about me." He's gone on national TV and said just terrible things about me. And so, I think that would be sometimes very hard for them because it's, when you're in public, you should say horrific things about me, and then when we're together, it's like, "Oh, hey, I'm your best friend. Come take picture with my wife and kids." Um, that's a hard thing. So I, I will say that they are highly resilient people.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  They don't have a choice. They, they, to take that, uh, uh, position, you have to be able to handle the level of punishment that comes with it.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  You get, you get massive punishment. People are cruel. And I'm not saying this, like, I get it, but people are just, it, I always baffled, like, why do you think it's okay to just be so cruel? I think there's no need, and I think-

• 46:15Speaker 01

  It's the nastiest sport in the world.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  It can't, well, today it's worse because it creates engagement on, on, on, online, on social. "I'm gonna get clicks." "Let me say the craziest thing so I can get clicks and people can view it."

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  But you don't realize how infectious that, that behavior is, and how influences, I, devices and stuff, and it's a whole other conversation, but I have a a four-year-old, and I have a four-month-old. No devices in my house, no screens in my house, Patrick. My kid watches nothing. I will play music for her from YouTube, and all she can see is the thumbnail. No video. I'm protecting her mind. I don't want her exposed, and even cartoons and all that other stuff, that's a whole other animal, the addictiveness of some of the stuff online, but I'm trying to protect her mind for as long as I can. I don't want her exposed to things she should not be exposed to. There, there's so many aspects, even just safety predator-wise. And while she is young, if you look at psychology of, of, of, of

• 47:13Speaker 00

  the development of, of us as a human being, when they are young, it's when we have the most influence. When they hit pre-teen, teen behavior, our influence drops significantly, and they care more about what their friends say. So while, while I can now, I will command and own that time to shield her mind and protect her. Also, from zero to six years of age,

• 47:35Speaker 00

  the brain, the physical development of the brain is that it's, it's doing the most work. So the synapses and receptors that we have in the brain, they're being mapped out. They're being created. And we're finding that the brain physically now looks very different in children who use devices, who are on screens versus kids that do not. So, th- these are all these things that are coming out. So I'm, I don't want my kids exposed to the cruelty, the meanness, none of that stuff.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Were there, were there things you saw behind closed doors that was their way of calming their nerves, of, you know, uh, relaxing them? And I'm sure every one of them had a different way of doing it.

• 48:15Speaker 00

  I will not, I can't answer that. And here's why. You have a security guy outside, right?

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  He follows you everywhere you go.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  So when you have a security person, they're in your personal space, there's a level of respect, you know, and professionalism to not talk about people, at least from the US Secret Service, and it's really been drilled in me. I, I wanna value and honor that it was a privilege. Like, they let me into their circle because they trusted me. And so there's some things that I will share, that are typically public. And there's some things, like, when it comes to them personally, I, I wanna value and honor, even if it's nothing bad, I just don't wanna do that.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Can, can you share something without giving a name?

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Don't give a name.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  You know what, the one thing that they all did, I'll tell you this, they all did physical activity. All of them. George Bush Junior, mountain biking. He used to run, and then it hurt his knees. And then he started mountain biking. He was a beast. Try keeping up with him. Uh, guys that, like, they're, they're always looking for volunteers, because you had to carry all your gear, bike and keep up with them. Um, so they all, President Barack Obama, every morning he would go work out, every morning like clockwork. President Clinton also worked out. So the one thing I will tell you that they did to keep themselves centered, all of them, physical, um, workouts. And I, I follow that to this day. I even learned it in training, like, the, the body and the mind, like, this. That I will tell you, that's something that they actually did, and it definitely helped.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  The other thing they all did, they were very good at delegating things to other people. So they did not try to do everything. "This person's gonna do this, this person's gonna do this, this person's gonna do this." So they kept their load light. When your load is light, you're able to make better decisions, and then you're not making a lot of decisions, which creates decision fatigue when you make too many decisions in the day. The quality of you making those decisions, the quality of those decisions goes down. And one more. You asked, because I think it can relate to the business aspect. Their circle of people around them. So when things are falling apart out in the world, like, there's all this volatility, the circle inside, always steady.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Nobody's losing their mind, nobody's, I've never seen anybody run through the hallways of the White House screaming, I've never seen it. Everybody's cool, composed, professional, and, you know, in their demeanor. So you, if the circle around you is like that, guess what you're gonna be? You're gonna be like that.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Right. Did you ever work with Trump, or you never worked with Trump?

• 50:44Speaker 00

  No.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Everything would be different with him, because when you said that congressman that came to Obama, President Obama, he's like, "You know, that guy said a lot of bad things about me." Trump would probably say, "Hey, you little a-hole, you know, what was that all about, what you said yesterday to me?" So he would have a different approach.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  I think he's a bit more direct, like, he might say, "I heard you said this and this." But I will say, from what I know, like, he would sit and have a conversation with him.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  He would, yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  And he'd be able to put that personal aspect to the side to talk business. Not a lot of people can do that. So he would, he would call him out and say, "Hey, I heard you said this about me, but sit down, what do you need?" Not, everybody can do that. Too mu- our egos are too fragile.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Well, you won't make it in business if you're not like that. And he came up in New York, you have to make those phone calls, because you need everybody's help. You don't have a choice but that. Who, who was, uh, so, uh, uh, you said Bill Clinton was a jogger in the morning. President Bush, he had a meniscus, I think, injury, so he couldn't run anymore. He biked, and it became a pretty-

• 51:40Speaker 00

  He was, he was very good. I, I never volunteered for that. Like, "You wanna volunteer?" I was like, "No, no, I'll, because I go to the ranch." I'm like, "I'll just stay here and watch this. I'll stay here with this tree and watch." I, sometimes I go on hikes with him. Because I had his daughter, um, Barbara, Barbara Bush, I had one of the twins. And so she'd go on hikes with her dad, so we'd go on these hikes, and I'm from New York City, and they're like, "Oh, there's wild cats out there." And I remember being like, "What's a wildcat? Like, a, a big cat? You know, I don't, I don't know wild cats, and can we shoot them? Like..." Um, so we would go hiking in Waco and different things. And so, um, you would, you would have to, you, the job, you had to physically keep up with your protectees, and carry gear, and carry, um, carry them, you have to carry them. It was a very physically demanding job.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Would they, would they interact with you? Would they talk to you? And would you have to tell a president, "Mr. President, you know, I have a job to do, like, let me do my thing"? Was there that, those types of moments, or no?

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Yes, if they interact, the smaller details, with, meaning like a former detail, that circle tends to get smaller and becomes more personal. And so they're not being bombarded like they were by White House staff, by delegates, by members of Congress. So those, you would have more of interaction and personal relationships there. When it's the president, as he's sitting in office, he doesn't have time. Like, they will, so you just engage in as much as that they want. You go off of them.

• 53:06Speaker 02

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• 55:02Speaker 00

  How about a latte?

• 55:03Speaker 06

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• 55:04Speaker 00

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• 55:05Speaker 00

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• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, because there was a story also with Obama that he would go to this Fireflies place in Alexandria. Is that a true story, that he would like to get away and go eat some food? And so I guess the last question on this topic before we move on is, who was the one that had the, what, what patterns for a president to have caused you guys to be overly, like you said earlier, President Clinton wanted to talk to everybody. Like he wanted to go open a door and say, hey, how you doing? How you doing? Who was the easiest one to protect that major job easier? Who was the toughest one?

• 56:01Speaker 00

  You know what it is? It's just they're different and you have to adapt to how they are. So it's not that it's easy, that it's hard. You'll have one president, you get used to protecting that president, and then another one comes in. So like a president with kids, young kids, like President Barack Obama had young kids, right? So he wants to do things, like he wanted to, he coached his daughter's basketball team. I would go out with him when he'd coach. That's different. So now he's around other parents, he's around other kids, you're making sure that is it safe. So it just depends what they're doing. Some presidents, their kids are older, they're staying more at the White House. President Barack Obama, every holiday, I spent all my holidays in Hawaii for Christmas

• 56:44Speaker 00

  and New Years, essentially, because that's where he would go, where other presidents might stay local. Or Bush would go to Waco typically. Well, actually, Bush, I think he would stay, if I remember, he would stay maybe Christmas or Christmas Eve at the White House, so agents could spend it with their family, so we didn't miss.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 57:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Wow, good for him.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  He would do, I'm trying to remember exactly what he did, but he would spend part of the holiday there, so the agents physically wouldn't miss spending the holiday with their family. Because they would go to Kenny Bunkport if it was, or to Waco. So there were some presidents that were really, I think, there was a story of Mrs. Bush, Bush Senior. I don't, this didn't happen to me, but she'd go around like giving cookies to the agents, or like moving your post, because like you'd be standing here, this is like where you're supposed to stand. And there were stories of her like going up to you, be like, you're getting wet, stand over here. And you're like, ma'am, no, I have to stand there. So you would have those types of moments with some of them.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  So when you, when you think about what happened with the president, you have three different things that happened with him. The ones that we know about, the Butler case, you know, Thomas Crooks, the golf course with Ryan Routh, and a recent one that happened at the Correspondence Dinner with the level of threats. How much of it is that on the president? Because he's out there publicly, how much of that is on the climate's just changing?

• 58:01Speaker 00

  So there's a couple of things. I actually touched base with the Secret Service before I came on, because I knew you guys were going to ask me about this interview. Okay. So we're looking at a couple of things. One, you're looking at what's happening outside of the United States. We have the Iran situation. Things outside the US definitely impact internal temperament, let's say that. So if things are, if we're involved in something outside, it tends to affect people inside their temperament. You do have a lot of folks who have mental health issues. They're actually, they've committed the most people at this point that they ever had. So sometimes if you have somebody with serious mental health issues who wants to harm one of our protectees, you can have them committed.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  That, because they're either of harm to themselves or of harm to someone we're going to protect. It's not an easy thing to do, but those are happening more and more. As far as being outside or outdoors, I don't think that that plays a role. I do think the polarization right now is unlike anything I've ever seen before. And when you have leaders, political figures, on both sides, saying terrible things about each other, and not even just terrible things, but very volatile things, you know, the, the average person hears it. One, you're setting an example for the average person that this behavior is okay. And if you're telling someone, this person's horrible, they're going to ruin your life, they're gonna, the world's going to be over if they get elected.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  It's Hitler, it's whatever you want to call somebody. When you do that, then the person who hears it, and sometimes they're not all mentally there, or people sometimes have very weak mindsets, they hear this, and if you're villainizing somebody, and they're both doing it to each other to such a degree, if I hear this, I'm thinking I'm doing the right thing by the world, by trying to get rid of this person. You villainize this person, I'm going to be the savior. I'm going to help rid this person. The other thing that's super prolific is social media. Before, if you wanted to hurt a president, first of all, it wasn't as out there. You had to like, take a piece of paper, write a letter, fold it up, put the address, put a stamp on it, mail it out. Or even if you wanted to be public and say things publicly, you'd have to go to like

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  NBC, like where I work, and have somebody let you go on camera and publicly speak and say what you want to say. There was a filter process. There is no filter process today. I pull out my phone, and I just write whatever I want, and I say whatever I want. Patrick, I'm a champion for humanity. We have shown that we are not capable of using these devices with grace, with class, with like any type of filter system. It has become the Wild West, and that is infectious. And that also now makes me, I can be in my bunny slippers at home, I'm going to pull out my phone, and I'm going to be Mrs. Tough Guy. When in reality, I would never say that to somebody's face. So the hate and the rage is infectious.

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  All these things combined are causing this. And then I think social media is really the prolific thing. And, and talking to some of my folks there, they believe that too. Like they're, they're dealing with the hate and the rage cells, it incites people, it gets clicks, but what we don't realize that we're doing is, we're infecting everybody. So what I would tell people is really be careful with what you consume. Because a lot of folks are out there, and it's for the clicks, and it's for the likes, and it's hurting us. I'm not trying to be like Miss Philosophical, I'm just telling you, if you want to know why these threats are coming from, if everybody, everything I consume is hate and rage, and this person's a villain, and they're going to take away your rights, and they're going to ruin your life, and this person's here from this foreign country, and they're going

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  to this, from both sides, if you're, if you just say whatever, people believe it. And it infects more rage and hate. And that's why they're, do you know what it's like to keep up with these? Before, when somebody said something hateful, you, or if you felt there was a threat made against the president's life, you had to go run out. Do you know how often they're going to run out? I remember Howard Stern, I was an agent at the time, when he had his show, and it was, you know, I think he still has it, but it was really popular. Somebody went on his show and said something about the current president at that, at the time. I don't want to remember who it was, but something kind of alluding to hurting or killing that president. You, the Secret Service, and Howard told him, hey, be careful, Secret Service is going to show up. And you know what? We send agents out, they're like, go interview the guest on the show, because you can't say that stuff.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's interesting. If you can, turn around to the caller, threaten the vice presidential candidate on the radio. Lawrence Christian Franco, 23, from Long Island, said things about Joe Lieberman, Al Gore's running mate in 2000. Franco called Stern and shown repeatedly threatened to shoot Lieberman. Is this the one you're talking about?

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  It might be.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, threats, when you get, when you get, one of our guys, Vinnie, we're in Tampa this weekend, and he gets a DM from a guy threatening, threatening his life, and just kind of go, I can't believe you said this on, we're going to get you, and we're going to find you, and we're going to do this to you. And Vinnie responds back. Not typically, it's like, listen, don't even respond back. He reported this to the FBI. And to find out if the guy is real or not, the guy responds back. I don't even know if this part of the clip I'm going to put in the podcast or not, but you can kind of read the top part of what the guy said, you know, you're seeing what he's seen at the top, and what he said about his mother, and I will do this, and I will do that to you. Okay, great.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Vinnie responds back, okay, in an audio. And the guy responds back. I want to play this to you. When you get something like this, do you report it or do you not report it? Do you just kind of let it go? Just listen to the audio.

• 1:03:37Speaker 07

  I respect that, you know, I think.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Let me slow down a little bit, because I have a 2.0.

• 1:03:45Speaker 07

  I respect that, you know, I think. Most of you conservative Americans are a bunch of cowards and clowns. You're lucky you live in America. You're very lucky, you know this. You've guns. I love America. I think God bless America. A guy like you in Europe, or in Africa, is what America would be.

• 1:04:13Speaker 07

  You'll be killed easily, like, nobody wants even to touch you because you're too small. Do you understand? That's the reason why you people are not taken seriously.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  So he continues, threatens his life on the call, on Instagram, and they're going back and forth. He reported, took him about 10 minutes to make all the reports. Cases like this, because nowadays, it's a lot, I mean, we had to build a wall around this property. When you walked in, this place looks like a, it wasn't like this. It took us three months to build that 10-foot wall around, and we have full-time security 24/7. How does, you know, one, what should you do when you get threats like this? Should you do anything about it? Leave it alone? Don't respond back? Especially with today's case. I'm sure you guys are getting hundreds of thousands of messages that are coming in. What should an individual influencer do?

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  So I get stuff too, you know. So I, just one thing, when I was listening to it, so this guy's liberal, I'm just, not picking a side, I'm just assessing who I'm listening to, right? Because he's saying you're conservative, so that means he's probably a liberal person. He has an accent, right? So possibly a foreigner, possibly in another country. And then as he talks, he says, "You all live in America." So if you were in Africa or Europe, you'd be taken out. So that leads me to believe he's where? Is he here?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  He says he's based out of Belgium. He is a Muslim who doesn't like some of the thoughts, one of the interviews we did with an individual.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Okay, so he's overseas?

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  He's overseas.

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  Good luck. What are you gonna do with that?

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  Exactly. He's overseas. That, no one's gonna extradite, no one's gonna, these happen so much, and that's why I'm saying like, these devices are really, they're just toxic. Because now, everybody has access to you, everybody has access to me, I'm on social. I didn't have any social, actually, until after I left the United States Secret Service. I had nothing. I had no LinkedIn, nobody needs to know anything. Even my birthday, that's out there right now, it's fake. I just put fake birthdays everywhere I go. So I, I do everything I can to shield and protect myself. So when it's overseas, and the majority, this is just for people to know, when you're arguing on social, it's either a bot, a lot of times, or the person's overseas. And you also, you have foreign actors that are really

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  smart, they're trying to, they're creating more polarization. If I'm from the outside and I want to destroy a country, what's the best way to destroy a country?

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Within.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  From within.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  From within. And so what they're doing, which is really clever, a lot of these foreign actors, they're creating a dialogue, so people can fight from within. So I would just tell people, I would caution you, please be hyper-aware. All these things you think you're fighting for, the righteousness, and use these words, justification, all this stuff you think you're helping, you're being used, and many of these circumstances, and you're being manipulated, to fight from within. The attack is coming from the outside. I would caution people, pause, think, "I gotta tell you, Patrick, I don't write anything hateful about anybody." And there's things I see, we're in a side, I'm like, I roll my eyes too. But I'm like, I do not want to help add, I love this, the United States. I love the US. I was born here, my parents are immigrants, but this country has given

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  me so many wonderful things, and I do not want to add to the, the hate and the volatility and the destruction of it. Because we are not realizing, we are incrementally allowing ourselves to be used in such a way.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  So, so, did you guys, like, even, maybe it's a different time, because nowadays with podcasters and influencers, you know, reports come out that some people are getting paid from this country, that country, this country. It's a very easy way to divide America right now. Just go find a couple guys, pay them 25, 50 million dollars, give them a message that you want them to say, based on this. Do you think any of that is happening?

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  Yes, 100% it's happening.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  It's 100%?

• 1:07:54Speaker 00

  Because they're like, "Oh, I'm getting paid, I don't know who's paying me, but he would like me to do this ad." They're not thinking. And, you know, can I ask you, what's the predominant age of most influencers?

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  30s to 40s.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Right. Do you really think they're thinking about it? This is their livelihood, they just want to get paid.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  You think really that's all it is?

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  They're not knowing that what the money's coming from.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  And I'm talking about specifically, I'm not even talking about influencers that are content creators, I'm talking about political influencers, that are getting paid by some of these other countries, that are, you know, wanting them to say, "No, it's not that big of a deal, the enemy is really this person, the enemy is really that person."

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  That's influence.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Do you think the US government knows that these people are getting paid?

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  I think that this is new, and I think that they're starting to track it or trace it. I think, you know, you were talking about starting a business, we should probably start a business where, if you're an influencer or somebody, we can track, like, where the money's coming from.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Do you know what that report would do? It would be the biggest report of all time, if you can pull that off.

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  Right. Tracking, like, this person's trying to pay you to say this, who are they? Where's the money coming from? Where are they located? Where's the company at? Right? Who's actually really in charge? You know, I always get offers online, like, "Hey, we're, you're a creator," or whatever they call it, "we want to partner with you on this." I delete all of those. "I don't know who you are, I don't know what you want me to say, I don't know where the money's coming from."

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  But it's different with you. You're a "we" person. So a "we" person is different than a "me" person.

• 1:09:15Speaker 00

  Agreed.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Wants to get the cash and the check. So, the, the, the average influencer is not that. They're getting money from a lot of places right now.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  So there has to be, at some point, some type of infrastructure built, where there is some kind of liability on you, the influencer, if you're agreeing to do this, that you have to follow some kind of best practices or protocols to make sure that where the money is coming from is legit. How do you do that? That's...

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  With shell accounts and all this stuff.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  The way of being, okay, so, two weeks ago, I had this guy on the podcast, his name is Jacob Coxon. He's the one that did the tweet about Anthropic AI, that, you know, it's the end of the world, be careful, and, you know, we shouldn't do this. He worked at OpenAI for a few years, and then he went and worked, biggest tweet of the year was his tweet. I don't know if you saw that or not.

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  It was massive, went viral. So, he sat here, he said, "So what's your biggest concern?" He says, "Well," you know, I said, "So, you know, is the concern that China's gonna get this technology before we are?" He says, "Whatever we have China has." I said, "Why do you say that?" He says, "Because Chinese nationals are working at companies like OpenAI and Anthropic. And so they're relaying the message to whatever's going on here over there." Okay. How does the country today, when he's talking about the Director of Secret Service, the threats are up 40%, forget about the threats, espionage, you have intel being sold, intel being sent back, and all these guys are coming, you're working, you're, the Chinese folks are long-term thinkers, that's not our business model, we don't say, "Let me go work in China." They would never let that happen with us. How do you, you

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  know, how do we protect against nationals, Chinese nationals, and some other countries working for our big AI companies and relaying the information back to them?

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• 1:14:01Speaker 00

  So this goes back to what we were talking about before, the hiring process. You have to do a deep dive into people's background to figure out what you can.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  AI companies with access to the best technology, you don't think they're doing it?

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  I think that they're hiring in mass numbers. I don't, I think it's, I think it, Patrick, it's the checklist. Okay, you have this skill, you have that. I don't think people are putting as much. Now they are. I've had companies come to me, because I do keynotes and I do training sometimes, and I'll ask them, what are the, some of the issues you're dealing with? And this is an issue that they have outside actors sending people into them for jobs, and they're trying to manage it, or they're getting deep fakes. A lot of the deep fakes come from Korea, and it's like, almost like they're supposed to get a number of jobs.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Korea?

• 1:14:43Speaker 00

  It's not South.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  North, of course, yeah, wow.

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  Yes, Korea, that's another thing. They do deep fakes. And in fact, kind of one thing to look out for is if during the interview, they say, excuse me, I have to use the restroom. That's a sign that they switch people. So there's all these, these different things. So I speak at a lot of these companies that deal with security, their, their concern. So yes, are there actors in there? Yes, because I think initially, and I don't think all of HR is properly trained. They're thinking, who's going to spy on us? And then until it gets too late. So the thing with China is accurate and correct. China takes everything. They don't look at, they don't look at it like we're stealing. They look at it like we're taking this to help our country. And if you are Chinese national, like they, when, they have the right to take your stuff.

• 1:15:28Speaker 00

  There's almost like, if you go to China, by the way, if you ever go to China, don't bring your phone, don't bring your laptop. It's garbage. You can automatically assume that it's going to get compromised. Take a fake phone and then toss it. Didn't President of the United States recently go, they got all these gifts from China. Did you read the reports of what they did with those gifts? They threw them in the trash.

• 1:15:50Speaker 00

  Because they have devices, they have monitoring. When we go overseas to certain countries, there are certain countries where you were told, don't bring your stuff. Just know your stuff's going to be compromised. So the first thing I did when I got to the US, I would hand over my phone, hand over my devices, and RT department would decide, is there any spyware or malware? Or some country was like, it's garbage. So I would caution these countries. I know the United States is very much about, we want to hire everybody, we want to invite everybody, we want to have everyone. The problem is you're also not living in reality. And Americans are very, they're very good people. They have a good heart.

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  And they project out onto other countries that they are the same, or other groups of people, and not everybody is the same. And so we are seen as quite naive.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  And by them, by the enemy?

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  Yes. We are seen as naive and easily taken advantage of because we're very much like, everybody, please come. And you want that, because I've benefited from it, you have as well, but you also have to have protocols in place, a filter system, layers of security to catch bad actors. You can't live in La La Land and not presume that there are not bad actors. Well, you're also the most powerful country in the world, so there's incentive to do this. If we were like, nothing, nobody, then they wouldn't bother. But because, and also, you know better than I, where do all the great companies exist, all the great innovators exist? What country?

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  US.

• 1:17:16Speaker 00

  Thank you. So where's everybody going to try to steal and take espionage from? I heard this quote once, I don't know if you've ever heard of it. China has a lot of jobs, but the United States has Steve Jobs.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:17:28Speaker 00

  Understand? So I think we have to think differently. It's not that you're excluding people, it is that you are the gatekeeper of who you hire. Slow down, look into people's backgrounds, check references, know who you're going to, verify things, go online. So even if somebody's come for a job, go back and look at that LinkedIn profile. Does it look legit? Does it look fake? Does it look like a bot?

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, the concern right now is with the AI wars, it's forget about what I'm doing, what are they doing? You know, what, what are they doing to not have the information being shared over there? What are some influencers doing that are giving messages that pins America against America and confuses the hell out of the younger generation? And how do you control that? Because freedom of speech is a big part of America, and I'm a freedom of speech absolutist. So what do you do? Do you create, you know, certain criterias of when you're getting paid from an outside actor, another country? You have to publicly announce the fact that they're paying you. There's got to be like, in financial services, when I was a, a, a Series 766, there's something called an OBA. You had to report every 90 days your outside business activity and your outside brokerage account. So

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  I have an account with, let's just say Morgan Stanley, Dean Witter. You have to say, how's your account doing? You have to give the report statement. Did you create any new accounts? I did. What are they? Here's a TD Waterhouse, here's a, you know, T-Roll Prize. Okay, great, we need to know, boom, great. Outside, what other sources of income do you have? I had to have this source of income. Does it need to be that where a, I don't know, but to me, if someone's getting paid from an outside country, I would want to know, especially if you have a massive level of influence. But then that could be also free market capitalism, I can do business with anybody. The way the Constitution is set up, it's so phenomenal, but it's also got opportunities for other bad actors to come and exploit it. There's a price with freedom of speech.

• 1:19:20Speaker 00

  Well, look, when it was created, who would have thought of all this stuff? I think it's creating oversight. It's going to take time, and it's going to take, unfortunately, we are reactive, we are a reactive country, and it's going to take something bad, something very obvious to happen before some type of committee or oversight, or even maybe a new department is developed that has oversight over such things. Right now, it's the Wild West. So I think something significantly bad's going to happen, that they're going to say, okay, we have to do something. Everything we do, as great as we are, we are a reactive country. Something happens because we don't want to violate people's rights. We don't want to take away from people. So it's, okay, now this happened, we have to do something.

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  Even if you just look at something simple as 9/11, before to sit and listen into somebody's conversation, you would have to, it was an act of God to actually get a wiretop to listen to phone conversation before 9/11. After it happened, then the Patriot Act came out, and it was like, hey, all you had to say is this is tied potentially to terrorism, and then you can get it easier.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Good decision or bad decision, Patriot Act?

• 1:20:24Speaker 00

  I think it was a good decision at the time. They did the best they could with the information they had at the time. You're just trying to protect and prevent another 9/11. So I think we learn as things happen. I, the, it was meant to be good. I think when it starts to be overly used, compromised, abusive, where humans are flawed, that's when you're like, hey, wait a minute.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, that's, obviously 9/11, you brought up 9/11. You, you were, you had an experience with 9/11. You went to the towers at 9/11, maybe share that with the audience.

• 1:21:01Speaker 00

  So the US Secret Service Field Office was in Seven World Trade Center. CIA was also in there. I believe FEMA was there, Emergency Management, there was a whole bunch of us in there. So when, I was actually in early for work, because I was working a case, and that's when the first plane hit. So I remember hearing the sound and then looking out the window, because the towers were right next to us, because there was all like, they're all collected. And looking up and seeing the fire in the hole. And so I immediately, myself and some other agents, we mobilized. And then we went down to, to try to exit to help. And I remember we could not exit from the front because the debris from the building was collapsing at the front and around seven, so we had to go through

• 1:21:44Speaker 00

  the back. And then as we were trying to go to the tower, the second plane came and hit. And so as we're running this way, the tower is, let's say my mic, we're going this way. Here are the two towers, and then this other plane comes and hits, and then all the debris starts shooting at us. Then we take cover, and it was either, honestly, it was either you got hit or you got missed. Like, there was no, you were injured. It was either you got hit and you were gone, because the debris and the metal, I mean, you're looking at things the size of this table and cars. There was no walking away. And so I was there for, to render aid, to respond

• 1:22:23Speaker 00

  for the first collapse, the second collapse, and then I stayed a few weeks later to help with the cleanup and rescue efforts as well.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was a tragic day, we'll never forget. I got started with Morgan Stanley Dean Witter day before 9/11, and I was supposed to go to New York because that's where our headquarters was. I was going to go get trained there. On the creative side, you're saying something's got to happen for us to, you know, unfortunately, a threat's probably going to be happening. What does the next threat look like? You saw the Director of Secret Service, you know, one of the things he brought about drones, I don't know if you have that clip on drones or not. He says, we don't know how to go up against drones. And I don't even know if I want our Director of Secret Service to even saying that. But I think one of the things he brought up is, you know, we've never experienced drone attacks

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  the way they are right now. So what are the future threats? How do you, how do you view that?

• 1:23:18Speaker 00

  So what he was saying, I watched that clip. So what he is saying is, he's saying, we can mitigate individual drones. So they probably take down three to four drones a week, just at the White House complex. So they can mitigate.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  They take three or four drones a week?

• 1:23:32Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, at events, at different, at the White House, at different events. I'm trying to think, yeah. So they can take them down, they're about, you just don't hear about them. They use jammers, they use different things to help with that. They also have this new device where they actually can catch drones midair. Because they're worried about somebody attaching explosives to a drone and using that initially, and I'll use my phone. One of the things when we would work rope lines is, I did not want people putting their phone in the president's face during a rope line. Because you can lace this thing with some type of device, some type of explosive device.

• 1:24:15Speaker 00

  Put it in front of the president's face and then detonate it. So we were always concerned about people lacing devices. When we would check the camera equipment, when the press would come, we have them lay out all their camera equipment. We open it up, turn it on, I want to see how it works, because I want to see if something goes boom. So now they're worried about explosives being attached to drones, which can easily be mobilized. Now, their concern is a mass attack of drones, meaning you've got a hundred drones, all with explosives. And that's being concentrated together to make one massive attack, or maybe multiple attacks in a specific area. That's what they're trying to figure out, how do you, can you prevent that?

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  That's what they're thinking. They're thinking, and I will give them credit, they're thinking with their imagination, which is what you should do. They're thinking with their imagination, they're trying to make especially the White House the most safest and secure place right now. And it should be, it probably is the most secure place in the world.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Where is, the White House?

• 1:25:12Speaker 00

  The White House.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  You think so?

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's things that you don't see.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 1:25:20Speaker 00

  I can't tell you, I don't want anyone calling me afterwards, but they're, it's really secure, it's locked down. If I'm in the house, I'm probably safe. There's ways to move around and, and

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  The underground?

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  I don't know anything.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there was a movie done a few years ago where Gerard Butler was in it, Angel Has Fallen, I don't know if you remember that.

• 1:25:40Speaker 00

  Was it Angel or Olympus Has Fallen?

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  No, there's both of them, but one of them was Angel Has Fallen where Morgan Freeman was the president, and they're out there fishing. I don't know if you remember that one scene, he's fishing, and then you see an air, see if you can find this clip on YouTube. You see hundreds and hundreds of drones flying their way, and that is the first time when I saw a clip visually to say, how do we defend against that? It's not like we have a, it's that one right there, it's the second one, if you go, ah, well, seven minutes, we can't go to it. Maybe while we're doing this, click on that, and we may need to cut it, I don't even know if we can show this clip. And I'm just showing it to you, maybe the audience doesn't see it, we just see it.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  The drones, one by one, come, fast forward to the scene where the drone attack comes, it's like literally hundreds, if not thousands, in the air that get deployed, and he throws the president in the water, yeah, right there. How do you fight against this? How do you fight against all these hundreds, if not thousands, of drones are coming? Look at this.

• 1:26:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a thing. Also, don't forget airspace, you have help from the military as well, so having military aircraft on standby to help assist to shoot down anything, the problem is time. One of the things they do is they do clear airspace, when he's in certain areas or moving, you will clear the airspace for his movement, so that you don't want anybody flying through or near around. I'm not saying it's not hard, and I think that's why the deputy director was just being transparent.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  So, you know, when you look at these, there you go, one by one by one, he throws the president in there, Morgan Freeman's the president. And thousands, so we were, there's a business that you hired them, and they get 500 drones. And the 500 drones gets up and it shows future looks bright, or our company logo.

• 1:27:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  We did this, we did this a couple of years ago at Flagler's Estate in Palm Beach, and it was a great experience. So what if this guy's a bad actor, what if this guy's a Chinese national, what if this guy's like, hey, here's a party, we're doing a drone show, under each one of those drones, put a little bomb that you have, kind of like what what are those drones called that they showed, the flare that they showed, the recent technology with drones that the US government showed? Palmer Luck is working on some drones right now, but we learned with this recent warfare with Russia and Ukraine and Iran, that really the one that all these big military didn't know how to defend were the drones, right? And this was one of them. These are the flare drones, that they come in and light the place up. And they're small, they just cost a few hundred thousand, a few hundred dollars to a couple thousand dollars to make.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  And big militaries like Russia don't know how to fend these guys off.

• 1:28:21Speaker 00

  You know what I think that they might do, and again, this is just surprising, because obviously I don't know. It would be interesting if you create counter drones that actually, like almost kamikaze drones, that hit the other drones. But they would, and just have them explode in air rather than on the ground, like as a countermeasure. So you're jamming, and then the ones that, almost like a missile hitting another missile in the air. They're gonna have to come up with really creative ways to figure this out.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  What is, what does Israel have that, the interceptors that they have, what do they call it?

• 1:28:51Speaker 00

  It's like that.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Bubble, what is it called? The golden dome, right? And the president?

• 1:28:56Speaker 00

  The iron dome, iron dome.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Talking about building that here, but threats are changing, so you didn't give me the answer, what do you, like if they were to, if they did 9/11, how, what could the threat look like from the enemy?

• 1:29:10Speaker 00

  I don't know if you're gonna have another 9/11, because right now it's easier to do different attacks. Using AI, corrupting people from the inside, poisoning water. Did you just see something that just happened, I saw it in the news? Somebody, this was in France, they were able to get into the system that refrigerates the food and supermarket, in a big supermarket. And they increased the temperature overnight in the supermarket, so that all the food would spoil. They hacked into the, yes, they hacked into the supermarket, so I see stuff like that where you're terrorizing and you're

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  That's brilliant.

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, they spoiled all the food, they turned up the temperature in the freezers and in the supermarket overnight.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  Supermarket fridges hacked, heated to 122 degrees and sparking, this was just yesterday, two hours ago.

• 1:29:59Speaker 00

  This is, this is the new way to attack. I'm gonna take out your water supply, I'm gonna take out your food supply. It's harder, it's harder to attack physically, I think, today, just because of all the awareness. I think the attacks are coming in a different way, through cyber, through AI. I mean, even getting into the system, the grid system, and just taking out all the traffic lights in a place like New York City, I'm not trying to give ideas. Right? But, or taking out the system, Greece had something recently, where all the their whole infrastructure for their air traffic control, everything went down, and there were planes just flying around. The whole airport went, the system went dark.

• 1:30:41Speaker 00

  So I think these are the types of attacks you're gonna see, and they're gonna be having, happening everywhere. They're easier to do, they're safer to do, I'm doing them from far away. The ones where you're gonna see kind of, I'm gonna go open fire or try to do a physical attack, I those you'll see those, the lone wolves, like they had just recently arrested somebody? Or was that arrest that just happened, I'm drawing a, at the mall of Americas, wasn't somebody just gonna do a shootout? ISIS-inspired, I believe. You'll have those, but if we're talking mass, mass.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  I'm not talking

• 1:31:12Speaker 00

  I think mass is gonna come, well, he supposedly has ties, but I think the mass attacks are gonna be water, electrical systems, taking down the grid, things like that. And doing it from overseas, and doing it, other countries doing it, or other bad actors doing it. Here's the thing with bad actors, or the bad guy, however you want to say it. They spend all their time trying to create ways to hurt you. That's all they do, that's their goal. You're trying to run your country, you're trying to keep civilians safe, you're trying to secure the government, you're trying to do all these different things, so that's why it's very dangerous, because sometimes we become reactive, it has to happen for us to know, and then to respond.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was a test they did six weeks ago, Ukraine with their drones and the US military. I don't know if you heard about this or not. So they send their drone team, and they went up against the US military, and you know who won? Ukraine won. And then, I had a conversation with a guy that works, you know, he was involved in this operation, yeah, US and Ukraine forces went head to head in an exercise, Ukraine's drones won. And this was literally a few, two months ago, and when it happened, August 13th. So we're entering a very different climate, but that conversation about, you know, raising the temperature at every single Publix, at every single Vons, at every single

• 1:32:39Speaker 00

  Who would think of that? Like, I would have never thought of that.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Brilliant, though.

• 1:32:42Speaker 00

  That's it, so you do this to all the supermarkets, nobody can get food, I mean, you're not gonna take out all the food, but just think about, it is brilliant, I don't want to give bad, but it is, I mean, you see that, you're like, I can't tell you how many times I would interview people, and I was fascinated, criminals, as to how they committed the crime, and I would sit there, I'm like, how did you do it? Please explain to me, and usually some of them were a bit narcissistic, which I hoped, because they were like, oh, let me tell you.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Brag about it, yeah.

• 1:33:07Speaker 00

  And I would just let them brag, but there were times where we would have like a scratch in the head, I don't know how this person did this. That to me, that to me is a brilliant attack.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  I almost feel like, you know, you have to hire those people and bring them in, kind of like how FDR back in the days brought a guy. He hired the guy that destroyed the stock market, which was Joseph Kennedy. And then there was a guy named Frank Abingale, I don't know

• 1:33:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, wasn't he the Catch Me If You Can guy?

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio, they brought him, and it's like, oh shit, this is how I would steal money from them, I guess. And so he gave a lot of, he's actually a very good speaker when he gives the stories, okay. So let's go to the next word, the word I want to talk to you about is justification, right? I shared that with you at the beginning, the word justification, so Lindsay Clancy happens, all right? And we know the Lindsay Clancy story. She happens, she kills her three kids, I think it's eight-month-old, three-year-old, and five-year-old. And we see the juror, 11-1, one guy's like, nope, I'm not with it. You can't get me to flip, and she was gonna go, just go to a mental hospital, you don't understand, you know, it's not for all this stuff. Right afterwards, I wanted to pull up how many cases similar to her has happened, so I'll give you a few of them.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  First one is Corey Walsh, Illinois. September 1st, 2026, she was charged with murdering her two-year-old son, Barrett. Prosecutors say she closely followed Clancy's trial and texted friends about it hours before killing

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Her two-year-old son. Her attorney says she was experiencing psychosis. Okay. Uh, then you have another one. Justine Marie May, South Carolina. It's September 29th, 2026, a few weeks ago. Charged with two counts of homicide by child abuse after her daughters, ages two and 15 months, died from starvation and dehydration. Affidavit said, she said she had spent two weeks in a blur. She couldn't remember what happened. Kind of see the pattern here, what's going on. Another one we have is Janet McOswen, Massachusetts, accused of killing her children, ages six and seven. After Clancy's mistrial, her attorney invoked the Clancy prosecution while asking prosecutors to reconsider their approach.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Colleen Lemon killed Christopher N. Bryan, her kids, her children. This just happened a week ago, two weeks ago. Cibella Savella killed her daughter, four years old. This happened three weeks ago. I can tell you so many different cases. So how much of psychologically are we gonna see, you know, women who are seeing this happen as a pattern? And they're coming out there, you know, with this case and saying, somebody else who's already doing this influenced me to consider violence or giving them justification to say, you know, this is not my fault. You don't know what I'm going through. How much of that case influences others to do the same?

• 1:35:54Speaker 00

  So it's copycats. I covered this case. It's copycats. I said it like whenever somebody does something or something like this happens, the first thing in my head is like someone's gonna copy it. Um, where it becomes difficult and I don't think I'm, again, I don't know the prosecutors of this case personally. I do not think that they expected the turnout and support that Lindsay Clancy got. I think they expected the population of them, the vast majority to be like this, for this to be abhorrent. You've killed your three kids. I really thought that they thought it was gonna be a slam dunk. And so I think, I don't wanna say that they were not prepared. I just think they didn't see it coming. I don't think a lot of people saw this coming.

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  So I'll give kudos to Lindsay Clancy's lawyer. He did a great job, obviously, because he did such a good job arguing this, that it's taken this thing. So what's happening with her is it's justification. She is saying, I did any, I looked at the history of all the different things she did. She's having issues and she went from this doctor to this doctor to this doctor. They gave her, each one gave her different medications, changed the medications. So she has a repeated pattern of going, asking for help, going to these doctors. They're giving her different meds. At one point she voluntarily commits herself, then I think leaves five days after because she didn't wanna miss her kid's birthday. So you see a pattern. She's telling people, I'm hearing things. She's telling people, I don't, um, she's doing all these things. She's communicating this.

• 1:37:22Speaker 00

  Now, the argument is, well, there's a couple of arguments. One is it the medications that she was given that caused this behavior? So could you argue, had she not taken any of these medications, would she have done it? But then you could also argue, well, you don't have to take the medications a doctor gives you, right? I'm giving multiple angles if we're looking at, did the meds make her do it? But then is there a level of responsibility on myself if I choose to take something that I know is making me not feel well? Do I still say, well, you're, it's your fault. You're the doctor. You gave me this, right? Is there not a level of responsibility on myself to say, I shouldn't be taking this? Cause I am voluntarily taking it. Nobody's making me take it. That's one.

• 1:38:03Speaker 00

  The other issue is, I think that when you look at what she did, it's either, she, there has to be some kind of consequence. It cannot be the person gets let go because then you're gonna have a prolific escalation of this stuff. I agree. There has to be, either you get committed. And if you get committed, you could be in there for longer than what you would have gotten if you were to go to prison sometimes, depending on what you did. Or do you go to prison? But you have to create some kind of consequence. It cannot be, it cannot be we're letting you go because you are going to create a ripple effect. The other thing is how she committed the crime. So I looked at that because I was looking at it for the news. She is telling him, go here, go run this errand, go pick up food, then go do something else.

• 1:38:48Speaker 00

  She speaks to him at one point on the phone. She talks with him and says, hey, I need you to do something. Everything's fine. And then she's, she's taking actionable steps to commit the crime, to kill one child. And then you move and you kill the other child. So if you're looking at that, at the breakdown of how she did it, you could also make the argument that she understood and was consciously aware enough to what? Put a plan together and continue to carry out that plan. When you look at insanity, please, and I taught this when I taught my criminal justice courses, there's different tests. There's the, was the McNaughton test, but essentially they say that you are so incapable of understanding what you are doing in that moment, that there's one that called the police

• 1:39:32Speaker 00

  test, that even if a police officer showed up behind your shoulder and said, hey, stop, you wouldn't have stopped. You would have kept going, that you are so unaware. I don't know. And again, there was a jury and it was 11-1. So again, I just don't know, given all those facts of how she followed through with the crime, that you can completely say, hey, it's absolute psychosis. Cause when you think psychosis, like, what level of psychosis am I not there? I do think there should be a level of consequence. It cannot just be you're going, it's either a person should be committed, like you can't, how can you release this person back into society after what they did?

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  What do you think needs to happen to her?

• 1:40:12Speaker 00

  They're gonna have a retrial. I think there should just be a level, there should either be commitment, like they should, she should be put in an institution or there should be a level of, of jail or it would be prison. But you know what? Patrick, let me just say one thing and I cut you off. I'm so sorry. If you look at people in prison right now, do you know many of them have mental health issues? A lot of them. So now, so then where's the cutoff point? So then if you do that for her, then shouldn't you do it for the rest of the population? The vast majority of, a lot of people who commit crime, they have mental health issues. So now why are they, why are they held? I'm gonna give you the other argument. So why are they, why are you? Yeah. Why are you punishing them but not punishing her?

• 1:40:55Speaker 00

  If, if, if it's the same thing. So it's, so then are we saying which kind of mental health is it? Cause they're, go to prison, go to prison or jail. The people have serious mental health issues.

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  You think this person deserves death penalty?

• 1:41:10Speaker 00

  Now, are you asking me as a human being, like me personally, Evy?

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  You.

• 1:41:15Speaker 00

  I will tell you this. I don't like the death penalty. This is personal. I'm not, I'm not pro or against it. And this is why. The reason why is I always tried to envision, because I work for government, if I would be comfortable taking the life of another person, I would be the one either administering the, the charge or administering the, the actual death of that person. And in my soul, I cannot do that. I personally rather would see the person imprisoned for the rest of their life. The other thing is, and that's just more from a human standpoint. I'm not saying people have to agree with it. That's just me personally.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Oh, again, I appreciate that. Yeah.

• 1:41:49Speaker 00

  Um, how, however, however, it actually costs more money. If you, now people argue money. If you look at money, what it costs, more expensive, more expensive to, to give death penalty than to keep you in prison. It's cheaper to keep you in prison. Did you know this? You didn't know this? So it is more expensive to give somebody the death penalty. Because of the legal process that you have to go through to give somebody the death penalty. There's an appeals, there's a system, because you have to look at it this way. If I kill you, it is irreversible. So there's a system that goes into place. If you give somebody the death penalty, you have to run through these systems.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  Respectfully, none of these kids are ever gonna be back.

• 1:42:31Speaker 00

  No, no, no. If we're talking monetary.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  No, but to me, it's, the concern I have is justification, because all these other mothers are like, I'm also going through psychosis and postpartum, you know, I'm also going through all this stuff. So now these kids are not gonna live a full life. So what do we do? Do, are we, okay, so it leads me to the next one, which is the consequences. So we have a major, right? What's his name? Major, uh, do you have his name? Major, um, Major Nadal Hassan, okay? Who, this guy.

• 1:43:07Speaker 00

  I remember him.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  You remember him? This guy, a few years ago, could have been 2009, if I have the dates correct.

• 1:43:12Speaker 00

  It's 2009.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  2009, November 5th, he decides to kill 13 soldiers. This is a major, not a second lieutenant.

• 1:43:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  Not a first lieutenant. It's a major. You have to go and do your job. He kills 13 soldiers, 32 other soldiers get injured. And a hexet comes out and says, we're gonna do a public execution, old school style, and we're gonna livestream it. Okay? Do you think, do you, do you have the same position with that as you do with Lindsay Clancy? Cause this is your, you're wearing the uniform. You're wearing the uniform. Should there be consequences for this major?

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required. Compatibility and availability varies, 18 plus.

• 1:44:16Speaker 03

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• 1:44:46Speaker 00

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. The message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate for three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 1:45:16Speaker 03

  Stonefire naan is made with real buttermilk and ghee. It's the perfect flatbread for any occasion. I put out Stonefire naan with dips at every dinner party. I make naan grilled cheese when my daughter has friends over. I use Stonefire naan to reward the humans who do my bidding. Right. It's perfect for camping trips. Dance for it, feeble mortal. Sorry, is he talking to me or? Dance. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire. Together we naan. Price line negotiator. It's me, the. Price line negotiator.

• 1:45:52Speaker 06

  We don't need the jingle twice. Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 1:46:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app.

• 1:46:09Speaker 06

  Fine. No one deals more deals than... Please stop. Touche.

• 1:46:16Speaker 06

  Priceline.

• 1:46:19Speaker 00

  You know, it's hard for me to answer because I understand what the government's trying to do. They're trying to dissuade bad behavior. They're trying to stop this stuff. And they're saying we're being too relaxed. I will say this. I am in agreement that if you do something... Here's how you deter bad behavior, just to be clear. One, I have to know I'm gonna get caught. I have to know I'm gonna get caught. If I think I can get away with it, I'm gonna do it. That's one. Hang on. The other aspect is, is there punishment or penalty? But here's the other thing I'm gonna say to you. If you're dealing with this type of thing, where I'm a martyr and I'm okay with dying, I'm gonna flip it back to you then, Patrick. Does it matter if you do a public execution? I'm a martyr now.

• 1:47:01Speaker 00

  I'm okay to die. So it may work with a certain population of people. It will not work with all the population of people. So all you've done is make me a martyr. Because I'm okay to die. I was okay to die in the first place. I just happened to not die when I was executing it. Was this guy, the major, and I forget his name that we just said, was he okay to die when he did that?

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:47:22Speaker 00

  For sure. So if we do a public execution of him, is it gonna...

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  Form of recognition.

• 1:47:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a martyr. Look what they're doing to me. I died for the cause. So that's why I would just really look at it and not project as Americans what we think will deter crime, because I don't know. I don't know. It will deter crime with a certain population of people. But with this population, when it's terrorism, where I believe that I am doing the work of my God, of Allah, or whoever, I believe in this cause and I will give my life for this cause. That's where I don't think that will work.

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  What's this, Humberto?

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  To make sure he doesn't get the recognition, yeah. Dumping Bin Laden to see, which I don't... I have a lot of questions with that one, but that's a whole different thing. I don't want to get into that one.

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get that argument as well, because now somebody else may be, oh my God, I'm gonna do it, because I'm gonna be hero. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna be a hero. I'm gonna be a hero. Yeah, go ahead and do it to me. You understand what's gonna happen? Because with my religion, afterlife, I'm gonna get this and I'm gonna get that. I'm okay giving it up for this.

• 1:48:29Speaker 00

  And it's notoriety. You're gonna televise this. Everyone's gonna see me die for my cause. Do you see what I'm laying out? Like, most people who do this, they want notoriety. We used to... What was the things that we would look at for a perfect attack? Population, lot of people in one condensed area, press? If there's no media to see it, what's the point of me doing it? I want you to see me do this.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  The enemy does it that way. Meaning, remember back in the days, do you remember the story of Vlad the Impaler?

• 1:48:57Speaker 00

  Yes, Dracula.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Right. And he did it because there was a leader called Mohammed II, and, you know, who was in love with his brother and he used him as a man toy and all this stuff. And that 100,000 army and one by one by one, I think he ends up, I don't know what the number is, 20,000 people he impales, just to make a statement of it. Like, you're gonna do this to us? We're gonna do this to you. And it showed how capable he was. Now, he died in a brutal way himself. That's what's gonna happen to you eventually. You have to be able to understand that if you do that to others, it's gonna backfire on you. I just think when you're dealing with an enemy, sometimes, you know, even this guy that Vinnie was going back and forth with, by the time the message was done, he was very nice.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  He was no longer being a... It was almost like, you know, you act tough because you're around people, but you're not gonna be tough once the reality is you're by yourself. You know, and it goes back to what you said earlier, which I wonder how you take this contradiction. It's like, America is seen by the enemies as very naive.

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  And I agree. I agree that we're saying, I lived in Iran 11 years, so...

• 1:50:03Speaker 00

  I'm Greek. I know.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  They're naive. So do you think it's a good strategy to maybe sometimes change that approach and say, you know what? Yeah, we're a little bit off as well. You know, we're also capable of doing X, Y, Z. You cross the line with uniform, here's what we do with you. My biggest concern is the uniform part.

• 1:50:21Speaker 00

  I get it.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  It's the uniform part. You can't cross the line with uniform. You cross the line with uniform, we have to make a massive example out of you. Now, you have a different position with that, but that's kinda how I process that.

• 1:50:34Speaker 00

  I wanna be frank. I don't have a position. I'm really, I'm just in the... I don't, I wish I said I had a right answer. I don't. I don't have a position. If they do it, they do it. If they don't, they don't. I was saying initially, if I had to pull the trigger, me personally, if they were like, Evy, I'm in uniform, you go do it, that would be just hard for me as a human to do. That's just me personally. But I understand, obviously, I was trained to take lives. I was in law enforcement. So I understand that. I'm just saying that, Patrick, sometimes like, I don't know what the right answer is and I understand what the message is to send to those in uniform. I think, but I also think that this might backfire on them too.

• 1:51:17Speaker 00

  Where everyone's like, look how horrible the US is. Look at what they're doing. They will demonize it.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  Nothing we do is comparable to what the enemy does.

• 1:51:25Speaker 00

  I agree, but we're the ones who are...

• 1:51:31Speaker 00

  We're the ones who are being assessed by everybody. And here's the problem. It's our own people inside that are saying hateful things about us. Like, the enemy is within.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  There's gotta come a time where like, it's okay. Say whatever you wanna say about me. We're not, we're a... If we go to sleep worrying about what they're saying about us, that's also a way that they're winning, because they're scaring... You see, there used to be a time in 2019 where I was afraid of talking about politics. Because I ran an insurance company and I was about to sell it and 99% of my wealth was tied to that company. So I was paper rich. So when you're paper rich, you walk a little bit different, because you don't have cash in the bank. I only had like a couple million dollars in the bank. I'm not wealthy yet. I'm paper rich. Oh, Pat's so rich. No, I'm not. I got, you know, just my mutual fund account. And so eventually I saw what was going on with COVID and I'm like,

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  do I just sit on the sidelines and not say shit because, you know, people are gonna criticize me? And that's why I'm like, I can't do that. I can't do that. And I started. And I started talking about it, but in a fair and reasonable way to say, here's what I stand. And these are the questions that I have. And it led to the audience coming and saying, all right, at least many of us started having some courage to talk about it. Because the fear of getting canceled, the fear of all of that is a form of them winning. And so my concern is, you know, we've, you ever seen the scene with Christopher Walken? When he says, every once in a while, the lion has to wake up and show everybody what he's all about? You ever seen this clip?

• 1:53:03Speaker 00

  I live in New York City. You know, I don't care what the data says.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  There'll be a lot of jackals and lions.

• 1:53:08Speaker 00

  There's, I don't care what the data says, people don't feel safe. When you release people on their own recognizance, when there are no consequences and there is no punishment for what you do, you have repeat offenders. People get away with it. Even turnstiles, like arresting people who jumped the subway, you should absolutely arrest. Because first of all, the psyche of that person's like, you're all sheep, I do what I want. I'm not gonna pay. You're all the dummies that are gonna pay. You have to, there have to be consequences to the things we do, even small consequences. It's if you don't nip the small things, the big things get... It's like I have a toddler. I correct all the small stuff because I'm trying to prevent what? From having a big problem later on.

• 1:53:49Speaker 00

  So I deal with the small infractions she does, so that they don't become bigger infractions. Human beings are the same way. You have to, there has to be consequences to human behavior. I am with you. Now, if we're looking at an international scope, the United States, do I think that we get poked and bullied and taken advantage of? 100%. I worked, I would travel to foreign countries, like we had diplomatic passports. So when we would go overseas, I would deal with foreign countries and even deal with foreign countries here as a liaison. And I would see certain countries would just be extremely difficult to deal with. Certain countries would just push back to push back. Certain countries would just do things. There were times where, I was in Russia, and I remember the Russians were causing so many issues

• 1:54:34Speaker 00

  that I went to the State Department person. I was like, where's your teeth? I literally said this. I'm like, how could you let this happen? Because we were completely getting rolled. And it was, it was so bad that it was dangerous for my protectee. I said, this is ridiculous. How are you not... And I remember my State Department counterpart at the time was just super meek, super quiet. I'm like, get someone on the phone, fix this. Nothing. So I do think that there's a level of weakness and meekness that does not suit us. That has to change, but it has to change internally in the way we execute and do things. And there have to be consequences internally for the population of people who break crime, who do crime, who break the laws, or hurt people.

• 1:55:16Speaker 00

  I'm, I'll give you an example. My husband, former law enforcement, 30 years, Secret Service, HSI. We always had this debate about, you know, would you arrest this person or not? I know, these are family dinners. And he would put somebody over. And there were times if a person was young or something and they were intoxicated, he might call mom and dad and be like, look, come pick up your kid. He was also a police officer in like a rural area. You give me that scenario, I'd be like, I'd be throwing cuffs on that kid. Who's right? I'd be throwing cuffs on that kid because you just let that kid go. You're assuming his dad's gonna fix him. But his dad obviously doesn't have that much influence because he took the car, he's driving and he's intoxicated. And how do I know next week he's gonna be like, oh yeah, easy, I didn't get caught?

• 1:55:59Speaker 00

  And he goes kill somebody else. My husband's looking at it from a different perspective. He's 16, he's dumb. Do I wanna put this on his record and ruin his life? His parents are coming. Everyone's, you know, it's a more of a community, human thing. Who's right?

• 1:56:14Speaker 01

  You ever seen the movie The Judge?

• 1:56:16Speaker 00

  Yes, Robert Downey.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Robert Downey Jr. There's a, this, this story is that with him and his son. You know, where the son screws up and he puts him in jail, but he lets the other guy go and the other guy comes out and kills somebody and he is, what's the right move to make? Yeah, it, it's a very difficult conversation and everybody has a different position, but I think we've gotten soft and I like that we are imposing a little bit. And the worry is, listen, in, in America, whoever the president, it's going to change the next four to eight years. So ideas are going to change. So you, you know, then he gets soft again, then he gets hard again. He gets soft again, he gets tough again. So it'd be interesting to see uh, what direction we go with this.

• 1:56:58Speaker 00

  I think a big part of the reason we're also having a problem, if you think back to the eighties and nineties, crime was very high at that time. You go to New York, pull up old, pull up, look at me like it's my podcast, pull up old photos of New York City subways. Graffiti everywhere. They were one of the most dangerous things to be on. And then they came in and they cleaned it up, started locking everybody up. You put graffiti up, you had handcuffs on you. It was riding the subway.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  Type in graffiti?

• 1:57:23Speaker 00

  Put eighties when it was really bad. Yeah, put the eighties graffiti eighties. I mean, you didn't want to get on a subway. Look at that. Look how, who wants to get on that? Look how dangerous that is. And it was not just the graffiti, but the inside. That's what I grew up in, because I grew up in New York. You didn't get on the subway. It was, it was dangerous. You might get stabbed or, or whatever. So they clean it up in the nineties, mid nineties, it gets cleaned up. So nineties.

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  This is post Juliana. Juliana cleaned house.

• 1:57:48Speaker 00

  Yes, Juliana's a clean house. The nineties, the two thousands, two thousand teens, twenties. So that's what, thirty, thirty years ago, forty year? So you have a new generation of people who what? Didn't grow up around that. So they don't know what it was like

• 1:58:05Speaker 00

  before you had these laws. These laws are consequences that help minimize this stuff.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  See, but that, that, that validates my point because

• 1:58:13Speaker 00

  It does.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  At the time, the NYPD commissioner was an old friend of mine, Bernard Kerik.

• 1:58:17Speaker 00

  He passed.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Passed two years ago, yes. And, and we spoke right before he passed. But Bernard Kerik was, you know, K, K. Bernard Kerik was a

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  he faced these mobsters like a mobster himself. He wasn't soft. He's like, oh, this is what you're gonna do? No problem. This is what you're gonna do. And remember, this guy was a former commissioner of the uh, New York uh, correctional facility.

• 1:58:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  And then he went from there to being the commissioner of NYPD. And you know, his son is now a cop as well. His son is now NYPD. Yeah, I think he's in Jersey. I don't think he's in New York. I think. So, yeah, I don't know. I um, uh, security is very important and

• 1:58:59Speaker 00

  They just changed their standards, by the way.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Good or bad?

• 1:59:03Speaker 00

  They lowered their standards.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  In what way?

• 1:59:05Speaker 00

  So you used to need um, twenty four credits to become a police officer. And now, uh, excuse me, you used to need, I think it was sixty credits to be a police officer. And uh, I guess they weren't getting people. I mean, who does, who wants to be a cop now? I mean, you're gonna, you're always, it's just terrible for you. No one supports you. I mean, you're, they're gonna punish the cop before they punish the criminal. However, they dropped it from sixty to twenty four credits.

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 1:59:29Speaker 00

  Yes. You only need twenty four credits now to be a police officer. And they lowered the age as well to get younger people, which I think is also another detriment, because when you're young, your, your brain's not.

• 1:59:40Speaker 01

  On what age to what age?

• 1:59:42Speaker 00

  I think it's at twenty and a half now.

• 1:59:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, twenty and a half. You're right.

• 1:59:45Speaker 00

  They actually got rid of, I think last year, the year before, they actually got rid of the mile and a half run. And they just put it back. So they got rid of making you run. You had to run a mile and a half to get hired within a certain window of time. They got rid of it because people can't, couldn't pass it. At least now they can't pass it. Back then, people I think were healthier, more physically, in a better physical condition. But people were not passing it. And now they just reinstated it because you need it. If you can't run, you can't be, here we go, college credits, Center Academy, sixty credits, now twenty four credits. Minimum application age, twenty one before, twenty years, six months. So they dropped it slightly. Academy college credits awarded, thirty six

• 2:00:28Speaker 00

  before, forty five after. Mile and a half runtime eliminated in twenty twenty three, they just put it back in twenty twenty five. Police entrance exam less frequent. So the police exam back then, when I took it, it was like every few months. If you were, if you could take it, it was a difficult thing to take because they had enough people. And now they're giving the police test every month. And I think they, I can't say this for sure. I want to be careful, but I think they made it a little bit easier to pass.

• 2:00:57Speaker 00

  So, yeah, they can't fill the positions because nobody wants to be a police officer.

• 2:01:01Speaker 01

  Evy, question.

• 2:01:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  This major in the doll, okay, who killed those thirteen soldiers. What questions would you ask him? To have, what questions can the military ask to identify to prevent this from happening? And I'm thinking more preventative, right? Preventative. How could we have prevented this? No one has background, no one has commitment. No one more he lied, no one worse loyalty was. How could we have prevented this?

• 2:01:28Speaker 00

  Do we know how long he, let me ask, let me ask one question. Do we know how, when he first entered the military versus when he did it? How long was he a service member?

• 2:01:37Speaker 01

  To be a major takes a decade. I mean, you're not going to be a major like, uh, there you go, eighty eight to oh nine. So his service

• 2:01:45Speaker 00

  So he was there for a while.

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  Twenty one years.

• 2:01:46Speaker 00

  So something happened within those twenty one years. So it's not his hiring. I don't think that's the issue, because if it was, he would have taken action probably sooner. So there's something that happened between him getting hired and him committing this incident that caused this.

• 2:02:05Speaker 00

  And I don't remember the case as vividly at the time. I do think one of the important things is, and I don't know if the military does this, so I'm speaking without knowledge, do they do reassessments of people once they're in? So for example, in the US Secret Service, every five years, they redo a background check on you. So is there something that the military does and they may already do this? I, I'm speaking completely ignorantly here. Where every number of years, every five years, you reassess an individual. I might lean to saying no, just because the military is so big and vast. That this might be a very difficult thing to do. But I think a situation like this would be doing every, every several years, doing background checks on people again.

• 2:02:51Speaker 00

  Looking at their socials, looking at their devices, saying, hey, can we look at your device? Um, give me your Instagram handles. Looking at their, looking at what they're doing, conducting interviews of their family and their neighbors. When you, you do a background check on someone, you go and talk to their family and their neighbors.

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  This guy was born in America, okay, and he uh, started believing that violent Islamic extremism is what he started embracing and came to believe that killing American soldiers was a religious obligation. That's what it was, his primary motivation. Religious radicalization. During his twenty thirteen military trial, he acknowledged that he had switched sides in what he considered a conflict between the US and his religion. He believed attacking American soldiers was justified because he could eventually be deployed to fight Muslims overseas. This was Hassan's extremist interpretation of Islam, not a positioned representative of Muslim general, is what it's saying here. He was about to be deployed to Afghanistan.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  And this was an important development. Immediately preceding the attack, Hassan was a psychiatrist assigned to Fort Hood. This guy was a psychiatrist.

• 2:03:59Speaker 00

  That, yes, that's correct. Now I remember.

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  A major. As a major. So part of this is preventative. What can we do to prevent? His colleagues had warned about him. Um, according to Senate investigation, Hassan openly expressed extremist views during his medical training. He gave presentations discussing violent Islamist, Islamist ideology. Some colleagues considered his behavior alarming. Two officers described him as a potential ticking time bomb.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Despite concerns about his conduct and professional performance, he remained in the army. He was promoted and subsequently ordered to Afghanistan.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  We could have prevented that, no?

• 2:04:39Speaker 00

  So let me say this. So then, not to oversimplify it, whose fault is this, that this happened? Really? Whose fault is it? You just read me all these indicators. Whose fault is it?

• 2:04:52Speaker 00

  Is it his or is it the military's?

• 2:04:56Speaker 00

  Because you have all these indicators and usually folks will communicate in some way that they're going to do something. So you have all these indicators that were never followed through. Nobody believed it. Nobody followed it through. So where's the responsibility really lay?

• 2:05:11Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a fifty page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies. Eighteen plus.

• 2:05:36Speaker 03

  Your credit card company is hoping you don't hear this. They're charging you twenty one percent APR interest, making it hard to pay down your balance. A home equity loan from Rocket Mortgage could cut your interest rate by more than half. So you could wipe out your high interest credit card debt with the equity you've built in your home without touching your current mortgage rate. See how much you could save at rocketmortgage.com. Rocket Mortgage LLC, licensed in fifty states. NMLS, consumeraccess.org, number thirty thirty. Call eight hundred four Rocket for full program details. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. The message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything

• 2:06:12Speaker 07

  Good in this world. Stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 2:06:27Speaker 00

  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 2:06:36Speaker 03

  Stonefire naan is made with real buttermilk and ghee. It's the perfect flatbread for any occasion. I put out Stonefire naan with dips at every dinner party. I make naan grilled cheese when my daughter has friends over. I use Stonefire naan to reward the humans who do my bidding. Right. It's perfect for camping trips. Dance for it, feeble mortal. Sorry, is he talking to me or? Dance. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire.

• 2:07:04Speaker 06

  Together we naan. Priceline Negotiator. It's me, the. Priceline Negotiator. We don't need the jingle twice. What about a third time? Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars. Seems like they just started. Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app. Time to read the timeline. Fine. No one deals more deals than. Priceline. Please stop. Priceline. Touche. Priceline. Priceline.

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, if that can be taken for 9/11, there was warnings about a 9/11 attack.

• 2:07:44Speaker 00

  Agreed.

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  If we can, we can use that to, in a lot of different cases. My, my position is I'm all about what could we have done to prevent it, prevent this. I'm a business guy, so you have to think about prevention. I'm in the life insurance business. We sold a million insurance policies. To us, it was all about if God forbid, something happens to the breadwinner, what are you going to do, Mary? You don't have a job. You have three kids. He makes $88,000 a year. You guys only have $17,000 in the bank. It's preventative. Well, he's only 39 years old. It's preventative, right? So yes, I do believe that. But, you know, from your standpoint, you're saying the onus, from the tone I'm getting from you, is the onus is on us, the US military.

• 2:08:28Speaker 00

  The onus is on us, and here's why. The US Secret Service actually does national threat assessments. They try to, because we've always been looking for the threat, the threat towards the president typically, because predominantly, that's really where it started, right? And then it's expanded to other things and places and individuals. So one of the things that they look at when it's the threat assessment, they look at what common patterns do we see amongst people who commit these types of attacks? So one of the things he's hitting is he communicated it. They typically communicate it. They tell people, the people around them will say something. And so what I see is a neglect to act to follow through. Just side note, a lot of the attacks that this United States Secret Service is able to thwart,

• 2:09:12Speaker 00

  do you know how a lot of them get mitigated? Family members or parents contact local law enforcement authorities and say, I'm worried about my loved one. They're saying these things.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:09:23Speaker 00

  So one of the ways you mitigate it, you're asking me how to mitigate it.

• 2:09:26Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:09:27Speaker 00

  It is teaching people, having the awareness to say something. Now, here, my only concern is people did say something, but to me is, hey, they're telling you this, but the military did not seem to follow through or create any consequences or follow it through to such a degree to prevent this. That's where I see the prevention. You have to have a red flag. That's why I asked you how long ago, 1988? I don't know what they could have done in 1988.

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  One years.

• 2:09:57Speaker 01

  21 years.

• 2:09:58Speaker 00

  But when you hear something, you must do something about it. And I think a lot of institutions have been relaxed.

• 2:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this, again, so this is why the five words for today's conversation, two of them were justification and consequences, right? So the consequences, if we don't have solid consequences, then that behavior happens, then another person justifies, I can do it as well, and I'm gonna go be a hero. So there's gotta be a balance between that. Both of us are parents, you know, you, I think you have two kids, you said?

• 2:10:28Speaker 00

  I have a four-month-old and a four-year-old.

• 2:10:31Speaker 01

  Four-month-old. Good for you. Congratulations.

• 2:10:33Speaker 00

  Thank you. I'm not sleeping, if everybody wants to know.

• 2:10:38Speaker 01

  So there's gotta be consequences, right, in everything you do? And some have to be higher, and you gotta make examples of them.

• 2:10:45Speaker 00

  You have to make examples. I'll tell you this. The criminal justice system, if we're just talking criminal justice system, and this kind of falls into that, the punishment. Typically, we've been a system historically where we punish people. Actually, if you look at the population of prisoners, if you look at the world population of prisoners, how many people are in prison? 25% are US prisoners. Then the rest is the rest of the world. So if you ask, you have to ask yourself, why is one out of every four people in a prison or jail for the United States? That's one. So what's happening, Patrick, internally in the US, where people are committing crimes? And there's a couple of theories about it. So the other thing is you must have consequences.

• 2:11:28Speaker 00

  So historically, we have been, you commit this crime, you get caught, you get punished. We were big on punishing people, creating consequences, which is a nicer way to say it. However, we've reverted away from that, and we've become a bit more of a rehabilitation system, which means the belief in like, can we help people? Can we habilitate? Can we rehabilitate people? And what we're finding is that you cannot. With some folks, you can't. Also, if you look at who commits the crime, the most crime, it tends to be a small group of people who are repeat offenders. When I worked a case, what was the first thing I did? I ran the rap sheet. I ran the rap sheet. I need to know who you are. If I had no rap sheet, that meant something. If I had a rap sheet, that meant something.

• 2:12:14Speaker 00

  So if I see somebody who's been arrested again and again and again and again.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  It's a pattern.

• 2:12:19Speaker 00

  It's a pattern.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  What are we doing?

• 2:12:20Speaker 00

  Most, most, I can't give a percentage, but I would say the vast majority of people I investigated had rap sheets. It was very rare for me to find someone with.

• 2:12:31Speaker 01

  It's a big training ground. Once you go in, you're learning. That's a university on how to even commit different types of crimes, right? You're going in and you're coming out. You know, but, but to me, there's a level, there's also people that are in prison that sold weed. You don't need to do 20 years or 10 years or whatever it is for selling weed. That's a different, some of the stuff that we have is just, but you cross the line and you kill 13 soldiers? I don't know what to do. Maybe, you know, you go in the middle of the ocean where people go shark fishing, and you drop a bunch of blood in there, and you track the fish, and then you drop their bodies there, and you record it, and you release it. Is that a positive thing? I don't know.

• 2:13:10Speaker 00

  Can I ask?

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  Is that one way to go? Is it just, hey, don't tell anybody and just kill them? Is it public execution? I don't know.

• 2:13:16Speaker 00

  Would you, would you be able to do the public execution? I asked, I told you, I'm gonna flip it on you. I'm curious. Would you be able to do it? If you were in service and they said, we need you to publicly execute this person?

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  I wouldn't even flinch.

• 2:13:27Speaker 00

  You would do it?

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  I wouldn't even flinch. And by the way, I would take the risk of going to hell and God not being happy with my decision, and I will deal with that judgment on Judgment Day.

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  You cannot cross, so I gave this, and I'll share this with you. Say you're my sister, okay? Say you're my wife.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  You're attractive. I'm delusional if I don't think people are gonna flirt with you when you go out. I'm an idiot. I'm delusional if I think men are not gonna slide in your DMs. I expect it. I'm a powerful man. You're delusional if you think women are not gonna slide in my DMs and flirt with me. It's very normal. Now, if it's a coworker that does it, he crossed the line. What are you doing? If it's my best friend that does it, that's tier one.

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  You don't do that. This is a major in the US Army, heavy. You crossed the line. You crossed the line. And now you are not for us. You're doing it for another country with an enemy of ours because you don't wanna go face them?

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  There's a part of it where, you know, as a Christian man, we are all about forgiveness and all this stuff, and I get that. But sometimes God uses certain people in a different way where there will be no hesitation. You cross the line and you compromise. We allowed you to give you the greatest honor of wearing the US military uniform. You're a patriot. Your job, our job is to defend this country. You do this? I'm good. It would be, I wouldn't even flinch.

• 2:15:15Speaker 00

  I appreciate you answering. I respect it.

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  I wouldn't even flinch.

• 2:15:21Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't have an, I don't.

• 2:15:23Speaker 01

  And I get that you take in your position. I respect it, but.

• 2:15:26Speaker 00

  I think punishment should exist, and I'm also not against it. I'm not saying, I, I, I understand it. I think it's, I think there's many things that are wrong, and I think to think that people cannot be, should not be policed, to think that everybody is good, to project our, our, our values and belief systems onto other people and think that they are like this is naive, it is foolish. We are not living in reality, and this is why we are dealing with many of the issues we have now. I am absolutely, I think we are very lenient on crime, and you know, reminds me too of the Leviathan, if you've ever read it by Hobbes. It's like a political theory book, and he talks about, Hobbes, he said, this was written

• 2:16:10Speaker 00

  a long time ago, Hobbes says, the human being, like as human beings, if you leave us by ourselves, we're gonna look after our own self-interests and we're gonna hurt one another. Like, we are not to be left alone. We can't, it's kind of like a Lord of the Flies thing. We are not able to be without a system to, to stop our bad behavior, that you must surrender some of your freedoms to government or to institution to police the rest of us.

• 2:16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:37Speaker 00

  That's what he says, and I, I tend to think that he is correct, and if you look historically, we've been trying to correct human behavior from thousands of years ago. Code of Hammurabi, what is that? Eye for an eye. So even from back then, thousands of years ago, they were trying to figure out, how do I control human behavior so that you don't hurt me? How do I punish? That's the earliest form of criminal justice, if you're gonna think about it.

• 2:17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. You ever seen the movie Fallen with Denzel Washington?

• 2:17:07Speaker 00

  Which one's that? I like his movies.

• 2:17:09Speaker 01

  Ah, is on my side.

• 2:17:12Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:17:13Speaker 01

  Seen with Detective Hobbes? You have to watch this.

• 2:17:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:17:18Speaker 01

  You have to watch this. You, and Elias, what's his name?

• 2:17:23Speaker 00

  His own.

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  Kotes? That guy right there, he makes the movie. He makes the movie. He makes the movie. What a freaking scene. He's on a death penalty, he's, they're about to kill him, they show the scene when he's getting killed, and the spirit of.

• 2:17:42Speaker 00

  Yes, I've seen it. Leaves him and goes into Denzel and gets passed, it starts to get passed around. Yes!

• 2:17:49Speaker 01

  Detective Hobbes. It's a great scene. Last thing before we wrap up. Are you following what's going on with this big senate race in Texas? James Talarico and Ken Paxton? Are you following any of it?

• 2:17:59Speaker 00

  I saw a little bit. I'm typically apolitical, just catch me up on it. What do I need to know?

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  You don't even need to know anything about it. So these two guys are facing each other, and the guy goes missing for nine days. Okay? He goes missing nine days, and this is more of a body language read. Okay? It's nothing more than political, it's just, do you believe him or do you not believe him? So it's a big race, massive race. Ken Paxton, maybe not the most exciting candidate Republicans have put together. James Talarico, extremely talented, polished, very charming, charismatic, right?

• 2:18:30Speaker 00

  As long as it's genuine, Patrick, I'm okay with it.

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  He, for nine days, he says he had the flu. In one scene, he says he went to urgent care, another scene, he says he went and met with his physician. This reporter's asking him, see if you believe him or not. Go for it.

• 2:18:43Speaker 07

  I went to the urgent care here in Dallas, and, and I was diagnosed with the flu.

• 2:18:49Speaker 06

  How bad was it for somebody? Wants to know, is this just like in bed rest, or did you ever have to go to a doctor or hospital?

• 2:18:55Speaker 04

  I just went to my primary care physician, but it wasn't anything worse than, you know, nasty case of the flu.

• 2:19:01Speaker 07

  And last night it got so bad that I went to the urgent care here in Dallas, and, and I was diagnosed with the flu.

• 2:19:09Speaker 06

  How bad was it for somebody?

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  So remember, this is the biggest race, is the third biggest race in the midterms that's coming up. It's nine days you go missing, 10 days you go missing, two, three weeks before the election date. Do you believe him?

• 2:19:25Speaker 00

  No. I mean, he just lies. He, he, he says two different stories, right?

• 2:19:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:19:30Speaker 00

  So, no, like right off the bat, it's a, it's, he's lying, so you, one saying, you went, one is, I went to my primary care physician, and the other is, I went to urgent care. One, it was like, oh, it's nothing, right? And then the other was, oh, it was something. So I'm getting to, it's a perpetrator, it's, it's the guys I would have in the interview room. That's, which story is it?

• 2:19:49Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:19:50Speaker 00

  Well, yes. I, I don't know him. You're asking me to do just a purely.

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  Can you see if you can find a little bit more, longer in the conversation to see if she, she has more context?

• 2:19:58Speaker 00

  I would have to, but what you do in a scenario like this, I would corroborate it. Show me a receipt, show me a medical document, show me something that says you went here. Okay. I'm gonna do something, if it's okay with you, Patrick.

• 2:20:14Speaker 01

  Go for it, yeah.

• 2:20:15Speaker 00

  Let me hit pause. I'm gonna take it to the beginning. I'm just gonna do it because there's multiple things, just hold on. So I'm gonna just do, play, explain, play, explain.

• 2:20:24Speaker 06

  You were off the campaign for more than a week, roughly nine days.

• 2:20:28Speaker 00

  Okay, so the one thing, these are just indicators. It doesn't, again, I wanna clarify, like, it doesn't mean somebody's absolutely lying or not, these are things I notice. One, he's standing very stiff, right? He's not moving a lot, he does move his arms a little bit towards the end, but he's very stiff, like, he's not relaxed. So if I have a high cognitive load, if I'm about to lie, I'm not gonna move around a lot because I'm working so hard to pay attention and to not mess up. Now, you might have this with guests, if you ever see them, I don't know if you've had it, where sometimes people are very stiff, it's just because it's so, the load's so high. So typically, you can see this with people who are gonna lie, right? I'm so on, I'm so worried, I'm gonna lie, I really need to be on, so he just seems very stiff. That's just body, just, just indicators.

• 2:21:11Speaker 06

  Your campaign said you had the flu? What happened?

• 2:21:15Speaker 00

  He's smiling a lot. Doesn't mean anything. It's bad. It means something and it doesn't mean something. He's smiling a lot. It just seems like a really odd interview to smile at, unless this guy always smiles in every interview he does in the past, that's what I would look at. But why is he smiling so much? Now, smiling can also be a sign of, I'm super, super nervous, and a lot of people, when they are very, very nervous, Patrick, they smile a lot, or they laugh at inappropriate times. But that can also be a red flag here, right? Why are you so nervous? Why are you smiling so much? It's a stress reliever. So you ever see people who laugh at inappropriate times, and you're like, don't laugh, that's not funny? They're relieving the stress in their mouth.

• 2:21:55Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 2:21:56Speaker 00

  Yes. So that's just one other thing I'm catching. Let me see, what else?

• 2:22:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I got the flu, and I'm feeling much better, and I'm glad I had a chance to recover, you know, if you don't.

• 2:22:07Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I got the flu, I'm feeling much better, and I'm glad I had, so he's taking it a different direction? It's like, I just had the flu, smiling the whole time, he makes good eye contact, he's holding good eye contact.

• 2:22:16Speaker 04

  To recover, you know, if you don't take the opportunity to get well, sometimes you can get even sicker, and so I'm glad we made the decision to just take the week.

• 2:22:24Speaker 00

  Okay, I don't like this. I'm glad we made the decision. Who's we? You know what it just reminds me of? Remember Anthony Weiner, years and years ago, when he sent an appropriate picture? And then they were interviewing him, and he's saying, we are doing this, we are doing that, we are doing this. Who's we? It's you. So who's we? Cause he says we a couple of times, we did this, and we did that, and I'm glad we decided this. Who's we? You decided. So when you bring we in, it's a great way to be like, it's not just me, it's got my, all my people back here. So that's a bit of a red flag. Who's we? You don't need we if you're typically being transparent, telling the truth.

• 2:23:01Speaker 04

  And now I'm glad to be back on the trail.

• 2:23:05Speaker 06

  You've talked about how you're diabetic, and that has, when diabetics get the flu, it can get really bad. How, how bad was it for somebody? Wants to know, is this just like in bed rest, or did you ever have to go to a doctor or hospital?

• 2:23:19Speaker 04

  I just went to my primary care physician.

• 2:23:20Speaker 00

  So we know he's, he's saying a different story.

• 2:23:22Speaker 01

  Urgent care, and here is his primary care physician.

• 2:23:25Speaker 00

  Not the same thing. So you've got two completely different stories, which liars, I'm not saying he's lying, but typically, who, who, they change their story. People have a hard time remembering their lies, especially when they're stressed. And he might be trying to change his story and make it seem something like it's not.

• 2:23:41Speaker 04

  You know, nasty case of the flu. And so I was in bed and, you know, drinking lots of liquids, unfortunately, the campaign made me work from home.

• 2:23:49Speaker 00

  The campaign made me work from home. So the we is the campaign, it's me and my campaign.

• 2:23:53Speaker 01

  So let me ask you another one.

• 2:23:54Speaker 00

  Those are the things I catch.

• 2:23:55Speaker 01

  So, okay, here's another one, is, this is a call that they made to a place, cause they're saying that he went to a mental institution.

• 2:24:09Speaker 00

  Yes, I heard that.

• 2:24:10Speaker 01

  Because it was a threat, right? This is the call made to Linder Center of Hope. A guy just calls and says, what happened to James Talarico? I want you to assess the lady's voice, if she's lying or if she's telling the truth.

• 2:24:21Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 2:24:22Speaker 01

  Uh, go for it.

• 2:24:23Speaker 07

  Okay, so nothing for James Talarico?

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• 2:27:02Speaker 05

  Yes, it looks, well, this is what it's today. Looks like just she was discharged this evening. That's why I don't have it.

• 2:27:12Speaker 01

  Oh, he was discharged then?

• 2:27:14Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:27:16Speaker 01

  Okay, this is the Hope.

• 2:27:17Speaker 05

  So he should be.

• 2:27:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:27:18Speaker 05

  Hmm, I'm sorry.

• 2:27:19Speaker 01

  This is, I'll make sure I have it right, but so this is Hope Linder?

• 2:27:23Speaker 05

  Yes, uh-huh.

• 2:27:24Speaker 01

  Okay, and you're in Hamilton, Ohio?

• 2:27:27Speaker 05

  No, we're not in Hamilton.

• 2:27:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:27:29Speaker 05

  We're in Mason.

• 2:27:31Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's why he's not assisted, he's been recent.

• 2:27:33Speaker 00

  Pause for a second for me?

• 2:27:35Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:27:35Speaker 00

  Just, I want to do it in bits. So a couple of things. So we have a long pause before she answers. Because she's trying to figure out, what do I say? She doesn't know what to say. She's confused, she's just like, uh, what do I say? Nobody briefed her to be like, don't say anything.

• 2:27:50Speaker 01

  God.

• 2:27:50Speaker 00

  So to me, I hear that, this woman's like, am I allowed to say something? Should I say something? Is it a family member? This lady doesn't know. She's, this poor lady's in over her head. She probably is not supposed to say anything.

• 2:28:00Speaker 01

  She's probably not, and by the way, they commented afterwards, and they said, uh, Linder Healing Center has refuted this. They have made a statement that Talarico has never received treatment at the Linder Healing Center. Which is what they're supposed to say, they would never.

• 2:28:17Speaker 00

  Are they saying, we did not say, or are they saying we never treated him?

• 2:28:21Speaker 01

  Let me read it to you one more time. So they said.

• 2:28:23Speaker 00

  If they're saying, if they're saying we never treated him, that's different than we did not.

• 2:28:28Speaker 01

  We never received treatment. He nev-, uh, okay. They have made a statement that James Talarico has never received treatment at Linder Healing Center.

• 2:28:37Speaker 00

  Okay, so they're saying we never treated him?

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:28:39Speaker 00

  So then the, I would, I would suspect they're not gonna lie. I would think that they wouldn't lie, because I, I'm not gonna lie. If, that's my institution, I don't think I would lie and say something like that. That's a pretty brazen thing to lie, to say this person never came. That, that's just the only thing where I would pause there.

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  Right, and this is their tweet, and on the bottom, Viva Frye, who's a lawyer, we've had him on multiple times, he says, I practiced law long enough to understand how answers can be true and still misleading. The statement says, Talarico has never received treatment from Linder Center of Hope. You could question the use of the term.

• 2:29:13Speaker 00

  Treatment.

• 2:29:13Speaker 01

  Treatment. Was he a patient, they never treated, or did he somehow, some other entity or psychiatrist administered the treatment? Which brings us to the most likely distinction. If the statement is true yet misleading, other distinct entities operate within the Linder Hearing Center of Hope, such as Linder Center of Hope Professional Associates. From what I understand, this is a private practice from operating, arm, uh, operating within Linder, okay, so.

• 2:29:41Speaker 00

  So it's possible that they're using language to get out of it.

• 2:29:44Speaker 01

  Could be.

• 2:29:45Speaker 00

  It's a separate entity, and they're trying to do that, because they can't, they can't say anything, it's a, it's a, what is it, HIPAA violation?

• 2:29:51Speaker 01

  Right, for sure it is, yes.

• 2:29:52Speaker 00

  With her, at one point, when she's also answering him in that previous thing, she's like, he asked her a question, so he left and she's like, mm-hmm, like she doesn't, she's not giving, she's trying, she doesn't know what to say.

• 2:30:03Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:30:04Speaker 00

  She's not, you could see her, she's confused as to what to say, and she understands, should I be saying this? Should I not be saying this? So I don't think the woman's lying. Again, I don't know, um, but I can understand that they're using language maybe to possibly hide from it, but I think to me, the biggest red flag, honestly, is he's giving you two completely different interviews, Patrick. He's saying two completely different things. That to me is like, which is it? And, you know, and I don't know this man, but you're also running, running for Congress. Should you not? When you're in those positions, you're responsible for the things you say.

• 2:30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it's, is it Congress or Senate, by the way? It's one or the two, Senate, okay.

• 2:30:43Speaker 00

  Senate.

• 2:30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:44Speaker 00

  You're, you know, you should be very.

• 2:30:47Speaker 01

  The biggest thing is that a lot of people are asking about is, maybe if you did this in July, maybe if you did this in June, but you're doing it in October? 10 days in October, right before it? And by the way, he's still, the odds are still on his favor of winning, so it's not like it's changed anything with Kao Shia, and where he's gonna be at with it. They're still saying this guy's gonna be winning the Senate race in Texas. Just a big race. Well, uh, before we, were you gonna say something?

• 2:31:15Speaker 00

  I just think it's really important, and again, I don't know this, I'm, I'm apolitical, but I really think it's important for people. People tend to vote emotionally rather than really looking at things and assessing things. So if you have indicators that somebody's, the thing somebody is saying, they can't do, they're not accurate, I would just ask people to really be thoughtful and assess a human being on what they're showing you, rather than what you are projecting onto them and what you want to believe. But what we do is like, we put blinders on, it's like, and the thing is, even if you had something, even if you had some proof, Patrick, that this was true, that he lied, the people that want to vote for him will still vote for him. They're committed.

• 2:31:55Speaker 01

  It's not gonna make a difference.

• 2:31:56Speaker 00

  No, it's like, uh, it's like, one, once I've decided.

• 2:31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:59Speaker 00

  It doesn't matter. It's, um, I hear what I want to hear. Even if you tell me something rational and logical here, I don't hear you. I've made my decision, so it's, it's weird, it's like, the way we are as human beings, highly emotional, and we don't allow new information, and even, uh, it, it, our objectivity is, is, is completely just taken. We think we're objective and we're not. I hear what I want to hear, and what suits me, and what suits the decision that I want to make.

• 2:32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, listen, it's one of the biggest races, we'll find out on November 3rd what happens, but, uh, before we wrap up, obviously, I really enjoyed talking to you, and, uh, I told you this off-camera, you know, you've done multiple interviews with some of the best interviewers out there, and you still come up with new content, which is great, that just says you have a lot of experience. Can you, can you share with us the book, Becoming Bulletproof? Uh, it's done very, very well. Uh, protect yourself, read people, influence situations, and live, live fearlessly. What, what can somebody find in this book?

• 2:33:01Speaker 00

  So I actually wrote this book, I wrote it a couple of years ago, and it's still going, it's like, published internationally, so I'm, I'm very humbled by it. But it's basically, I took, I broke it up to three parts. First part is a mental armor, resilience, protection, and I, um, second part is reading body language, a lot of what we just did, reading body, body language, verbal language, and also, I don't know if somebody is telling you the truth or lying. Side note, it is easier to tell if somebody's telling you the truth, rather than if they're lying. Toothful indicators are easier than lying indicators. So I cover all that in the book. Part three is influence, how to influence people, um, using, using things like autonomy, giving people a choice. So like, you brought up COVID earlier, nobody likes to be told what to do.

• 2:33:45Speaker 00

  You tell people what to do, you get something called reactance. Even if you're right, even if you've got the data, don't tell me what to do. What people respond well to is, give me a choice. Would you like to do this? Would you like to do this? I feel like I'm still in control. So things like that, mirroring, proximity, influence techniques. So I took it, and it's really good for the average person, especially in business, for you to understand the environment around you, have your situational awareness, and I took strategies and things that I was allowed to share publicly from the US Secret Service. I actually read the book, they had to approve it. So I took a lot of the stuff that I learned as a polygrapher, as an interviewer, as interrogator, assessing human behavior, um, I put all that in there, and then the first part, we did a whole thing on protection.

• 2:34:28Speaker 00

  Like, I shared things that we did to protect the people we protected physically, mentally, emotionally, like, you know how you brought up earlier, the whole victim thing?

• 2:34:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:34:35Speaker 00

  You don't want to be a victim. You're gonna go nowhere in life, being a victim. So a lot of the stuff I share with mental armor and all that, it teaches you how not to be a victim. So you always hear people say empathy, empathy is great. No, empathy is not great, when if you let everything that happens in the world penetrate you, touch you, it's not good. Like, you have to be a gatekeeper of who's around you, of what you lend, let in. So I talk about mental armor, and the things that I learned, being around some really, like, exceptional human beings. Like, they take in, I don't want to say they take the average person either, because I asked once, a recruiter once, and I said, how do you take an recruiter, make him this elite warrior? How do you take the average person, excuse me, and make them an elite warrior?

• 2:35:17Speaker 00

  And the recruiter said to me, I want to forget, the average person doesn't apply for this job.

• 2:35:21Speaker 01

  Hmm, I love that.

• 2:35:24Speaker 00

  So right then and there, that self-selection process, you self-select yourself. You, you self-select yourself out of it. So you're already getting a certain caliber of people who are like, you know what? I believe I can do this.

• 2:35:38Speaker 01

  I love that, so we're gonna put the link below, folks, go place the order for Becoming Bulletproof.

• 2:35:44Speaker 00

  Thank you, Patrick.

• 2:35:44Speaker 01

  Evy, really enjoyed the conversation with you.

• 2:35:47Speaker 00

  Appreciate you, thank you.

• 2:35:47Speaker 01

  Of course.

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