Charlie Kirk didn't matter

Happy (?) Kirkiversary. One year ago today, Charlie Kirk was killed by someone the right-wing wasn’t able to effectively use for fearmongering. Ryan & Grant look back at what Kirk’s legacy is now — the martyr he wasn’t able to become, and the guy who’s instead trapped in memes and shitposts forever. Want even more Panic World content? Like ad-free episodes, bonuses & exclusives, and access to our members-only Discord? Sign up for a membership for just five bucks a month at https://www.patreon.com/PanicWorld. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:09Ryan Broderick?

  I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it, it wasn't.

• 0:17Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 02

  Hi, it is me in your feed on a Thursday, not a Wednesday. We are so close to being back to regular scheduled programming, but we wanted to give you this conversation in full on this day of remembrance of the death of Charlie Kirk. To talk about why there's so little to say, because there's a lot to say about how little there is to say. So here is a conversation between me and Ryan about one year of post Charlie Kirk. Stay locked in back to regular scheduled programming so soon. Episode go.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Multiple choice for Ryan Broderick. Do you have a favorite Charlie Kirk meme? Or do you remember the first time you were like, oh shit, there's tons of these. This is taking over.

• 1:22Ryan Broderick?

  It's probably like a day after he died. As for a favorite, I have now many. So many that I can't, no, I. Can we do a different intro, please? I don't, I don't, I don't have any thoughts about Charlie Kirk, actually. I've decided.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  That is actually exactly what I want to talk about.

• 1:48Ryan Broderick?

  I'll be honest, like I've been dreading the one year anniversary because it's really hyped. And I don't really have any long, big thoughts about him other than like, he's a joke. You know, his death didn't mean anything, you know?

• 2:01Speaker 02

  That's actually exactly what I want to talk to you about. This is Panic World. I'm Grant Irving. Joining me, the number one ranked Kirk Chungus, Ryan Broderick.

• 2:11Ryan Broderick?

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Thank you for doing your show. I sincerely mean it this time. It's been a year. How would you say Kirk has influenced or changed internet culture?

• 2:22Ryan Broderick?

  It's really complicated because I.

• 2:26Ryan Broderick?

  I am cursed with as a job following how things happen. So like, there's a lot of libs and leftists right now celebrating the fact that Charlie Kirk, one year later, is like a big joke. And I unfortunately know that they had nothing to do with that. Like they eventually like leftists, liberals, people on blue sky, people on X who are not right wing maniacs. They eventually started making fun of Charlie Kirk. But they, like me, lived in fear of right wing retribution against them for making fun of Charlie Kirk for days, if not weeks, if not months.

• 3:07Ryan Broderick?

  The whole reason we are talking about Charlie Kirk as a meme is unfortunately a victory for the hardcore far right. And that is something that, that is something I can't really square because we are having this conversation right now. You and I, Grant, because of Nick Fuentes and his followers. Because they were the first ones to sort of cross the taboo of making fun of Charlie Kirk after he died.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  This is a absolute classic, Ryan has, I got nothing to say. What do you want from me? Then you're dropping a complete thesis statement.

• 3:40Ryan Broderick?

  I don't have anything to say about it because like, there is like, the whole project, the whole Charlie Kirk project is a failure. But it's also a failure for anyone that wanted to stand up to the like, like it's like a very sad statement on like the politics of America right now, because like no one, no, no like ultra libs or whatever were standing up and making fun of Charlie Kirk. It started with like some of the most racist people I've ever seen on TikTok and X.com making fun of him because they thought he was too liberal. Like, like that's the, that's, that's the thing we're in right now.

• 4:25Ryan Broderick?

  And I think, I, I don't really want to talk about it because I don't think people are going to be happy or be interested in listening to this because there's going to be a lot of glad handing this week about like, isn't it great that we've like trapped Charlie Kirk's soul in an AI data center? We did it, we defeated Trumpism and it's like, no, you're following the leader and the leader here is Nick Fuentes.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  So do you?

• 4:47Speaker 02

  I, I, I think that's fascinating. And so maybe, maybe the better question than what I had planned was, do you think that there was a, a turning point where the broadly the left thought like, started to claim this as their own victory?

• 5:04Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, they do it all the time. Like, and it's, you know what? I gotta be really careful because I've, I, I keep seeing people talk about like the left and liberals. And I don't think they're the same thing and I don't think they're the same people. Some of them use the same spaces, but the sort of like hardcore leftist shit posters who love to be dark woke or not PC or whatever, some of whom I consider my friends or at least like peers. They love to kind of swoop in and do this thing. These are the kind of thoughts I have when I realize I've been staring at like systems and networks for too long. Cause I start to see sort of like how like information travels and I, and I start to feel kind of crazy.

• 5:48Ryan Broderick?

  But like basically there's a group of leftist shit posters who are clearly seeing stuff on the far right and going like, how could I emulate this? And when they do, they scandalize like good liberals who then slowly kind of get pulled in that direction. It's sort of like laundering, you know, culture. And that is kind of the story of the Charlie Kirk memes, which is like, we, we, we wrote about it at the time. Like they started with Gruypers. They started with the followers of Nick Fuentes. And then they traveled to leftist shit posters. And then they kind of became mainstream.

• 6:34Ryan Broderick?

  And like some of the earliest examples of Charlie Kirk memes were people doing AI edits of Charlie Kirk to look like an Aryan with like blonde hair. And they would make like major league gaming style TikTok edits where Charlie Kirk would help the player get to a Gartha, the center of the world, which was like a concept from like fascist occultism of like the late 1800s. Like you start to sound crazy when you talk about this stuff. And then like you start to see waves of users like join in, but that was all after the ice had already kind of been broken because you gotta think like all the way back in like, you know, September of last year,

• 7:16Ryan Broderick?

  the kind of fear was like, there was going to be this like insane authoritarian crackdown in the name of Charlie Kirk. And it did happen, like people did lose their jobs. Flags did fly at half mast. A lot of people won settlements for losing their jobs, but that wasn't for months and months and months later. And I've seen a lot of like a historical nonsense in the last week or so about people being like, there was nothing to fear ever. This was all a big joke and like, it wasn't actually, you know? I just think that's important to hold on to because there was a brief second where like, this may have worked actually.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the question I planned to ask you today was, can we identify the moment the mega coalition overplayed their hand on turning this into their like Trojan horse? We're going to get everything we want to accomplish in the name of Charlie Kirk. But I, I now wonder if we should go through that timeline and also try to identify how much the Gruypers helped corrode that from being a possibility.

• 8:18Ryan Broderick?

  The sort of story that I have in my head, making sense of this, I think is fairly simple, which is Charlie Kirk dies and the only people who are immediately laughing about it are Gruypers who had always hated him and have no trouble sort of pushing the boundaries of taste. That's like their whole deal. And once he dies, they start making fun of him and they start like seeding really obscure, kind of like dense, weird fascist memes into places like TikTok and X. And I suspect they were using Discord and group DMs to do that. As that's happening in the real world, Republicans sort of seize on this, like this is their big moment.

• 9:03Ryan Broderick?

  They almost like can't contain their glee about it. I think I wrote at the time, like, you know, Charlie Kirk has performed like the last thing he needs to do as an influencer, which is like give his body literally to the machine. Although now I guess his soul has been given to the machines.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Can you break that down for us a little bit more?

• 9:23Ryan Broderick?

  I saw a really good YouTube video today talking about kind of like influencers and creators. And the guy was basically, he said this thing like, you know, being an influencer, being a creator, especially if you're not in a true position of power, is really just a math equation of how much dignity are you willing to sell in exchange for fame? That is the job of an influencer, whether you are popular or not popular or whatever. How exposed do you want to live your life and how willing are you to do that to become famous?

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Have you asked yourself that question?

• 9:56Ryan Broderick?

  I haven't had to think about it until we started to use cameras.

• 10:01Ryan Broderick?

  And now I think about it all the time. But yeah, it's, I, I find the whole thing very distasteful. Like Charlie Kirk, like as the influencer premier of the Trump movement was always going to give his body, you know, and presents to the machine. And now, you know, his soul is basically trapped in a shitpost forever. But in September of last year, right when this is happening, like, everyone is taking this very seriously. There's like, there's Atlantic articles and New Yorker articles and garbage day articles, all being like, hey, like, this is really dangerous. Like, this could be sort of the Reichstag fire, or whatever, of the MAGA movement. And then, they kind of overplayed their hand

• 10:43Ryan Broderick?

  almost immediately. And it's a, it's something that I didn't kind of clock at the time, but now in retrospect is like, clearly, the true weakness of Trump 2.0. And it's very funny to say this. It's running events. They're really fucking bad at it. They can't do the UFC, they couldn't do the Freedom Games, or whatever the hell it was called. And they couldn't even do Charlie Kirk's funeral. The whole thing looked like a WWE match. And I think, in retrospect, this sort of like, complete inability to run an event, like, on a fundamental level, actually is the, the, the real cause of all of this.

• 11:26Ryan Broderick?

  That's when the griper stuff flips over into mainstream. Because everyone's like, oh, this is a joke even to you guys. Like, that's the start of the Erica Kirk stuff. All of it kind of starts with his funeral. And how low-rent and tacky it looked and felt.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  That was September 21st, so literally, 11 days later. And my note in this outline is, she came out to pyrotechnics. The, the WWE pyrotechnics, too, that she would then use in December, that would be made fun of later. But like, no one thought like, this isn't bad taste this time? There's not that level of detail.

• 12:02Ryan Broderick?

  No. And like, look, uh, you know, I'm not gonna say that there weren't any memes and no one's sort of making fun of Charlie Kirk before his funeral. But I will say, that the sort of popular conception of Charlie Kirk as a meme, as a joke, in death, I think is caused by that. That, like, if they had been able, if, if they had gone the opposite direction, instead of channeling like, a chicken fried, Kid Rock concert WWE cage match thing, and gone like, hardcore scary, like, 19th century fascist, everyone in black stuff, like Starship Troopers, you know, like, that kind of vibe. And then, like, been able

• 12:46Ryan Broderick?

  to figure out how to channel that into state violence immediately? Because like, that's the other thing. The Charlie Kirk assassination, I think, I am hoping that I don't sound silly in five years talking about this. I, I'm hoping that in five years, this is an example of how like, Trumpism kind of died with Charlie Kirk. But the fact the government was set up to do state violence against immigrants, but Charlie Kirk was not assassinated by an immigrant, meant that they were totally unable to connect his death to their broader campaign of terror. And if, if it had gone differently, I think we would be having a very different conversation right now. But because it was a white guy who had written

• 13:30Ryan Broderick?

  memes on the bullets, and had like, extensive relationships, I guess we could say, with trans people who may or may not be furries, and sort of came from this online world that was totally inscrutable, the government could not immediately crack down the way that I think they would have liked to. So it left the whole thing, you know, I think it left everyone kind of going like, why are we talking about any of this? Who was Charlie Kirk? And we could talk about who I think Charlie Kirk was, in the grand scheme of things, if you want. But like, that's, that's where I would sort of say everything fell apart, was his funeral.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Let's get there in a moment. The funeral was the 21st. And then on the 22nd, Trump signs the executive order, naming Antifa as a terrorist organization. Which feels like it could have been tied in to Tyler Robinson, and, and the, used as the death. Let's stop there. Because from my vantage point, I would think, oh shit, they got like, they got the villain that they wanted, which is like, left scum, that they can say are violent terrorists. And like, anyone who's ever posted a shitty thing, we gotta go after them now because they're also violent.

• 14:37Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. And I'm not downplaying that. I'm not downplaying the dangers of NS, NSPM7, or whatever it's called.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Don't flex. Keep going.

• 14:46Ryan Broderick?

  Hey, I got it right. I'm not downplaying the seriousness of that, or the danger of that. And they're, you know, the, what weren't, like, a whole bunch of activists just sent to jail for like, 100,000 years in Texas. The major problem with taking Charlie Kirk's death and immediately turning it into state violence, is that the infrastructure wasn't there. ICE is not something that just sort of appeared out of nowhere. ICE is a, at this point, 25-year political project, you know, after 9/11. All of the infrastructure is there to allow something like, what happened in Minneapolis to happen. That is not true for countering leftist terrorism, which is also so amorphous and confusing that the average person can't really wrap their heads around it. I also think, like, there's something

• 15:28Ryan Broderick?

  very funny about Fox News's refusal to call Antifa anti-fascist. So Antifa is like a silly name. Like, it's just silly. And it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make sense. Like, like I said, like, if Charlie Kirk had been killed by someone who was not from this country, and if you listen to Candace Owens, he may have been, I think that would have resulted in like, a much more ferocious crackdown. But they don't, they weren't able to spin up a machine, you know, fast enough to go after people posting online. Also, like, this sounds kind of corny, but I do think, the First Amendment is sort of this load-bearing

• 16:09Ryan Broderick?

  thing in this country that, for all the kind of fretting about it, allows you to get a half a million dollar settlement, when you're fired for posting about Charlie Kirk on Facebook. Yes, it is really annoying, and it is scary how fast the government tried to sort of make me, you know, making fun of Charlie Kirk into a crime. But it is extremely wonderful, a year later, you know, to look back and be like, it didn't work. For the most part, it didn't work.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  And, and I want to hit on how much of that was because of the grippers, or, or like, what happened there in, in a second. But I want to pause on, on what you just said. What we saw in Minneapolis, and how that all played out, was a bunch of normal-ass people being like, you are breaking too many norms. You cannot convince us they are criminals. Like, this is, this is too upsetting on mass to a populace, the way you're doing it. Like, we don't want this guy in this Nazi-colored trench coat on our streets. The cosplay went too far in breaking everyone's norms, that people were upset. And that, even though

• 17:14Speaker 02

  a lot of MAGA-ism is, is, is high on their own supply of like, deep online shit, the act of having to like, explain Antifa, explain somebody who reposted a Charlie Kirk saying something racist and saying like, we shouldn't martyr this guy, was like, going to be a communication step too far, along with not having infrastructure. They like, didn't have the infrastructure, and also like, it, it becomes like, trying to explain something deeply online, to a mass populace, where things start to fall apart, versus being able to say like, they're illegal here, and they're criminals, is a much simpler messaging.

• 17:56Ryan Broderick?

  I also just think like, no one cares about Charlie Kirk. Like, like, no one cares about Turning Point USA. I mean, the data, I think, I saw from, maybe, maybe it was More Perfect Union, was sort of revealing that like, most of the chapters don't exist. And if they do exist, they're, they were created purely, just to like, sort of show up on paper. There's no members. It's not a real thing. Charlie Kirk is not a, was not a real person that anyone knew about. He was a kid who got his start as like a, like a blogger, on right-wing Facebook websites. And there's like, something very funny to be said there, where it's like,

• 18:35Ryan Broderick?

  It's kind of like when the Try Guys got made fun of on Saturday Night Live. And the whole country was like, who are these people?

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 18:43Ryan Broderick?

  Like Charlie Kirk was not a real popular human being. I have to be careful because I think like trying to ascribe too much order to the Trump movement is a mistake. I don't think there is sort of any kind of mastermind behind the scenes, including Trump. And they're all just like very selfish, you know. I think there's just a lot of people operating on a level of like pure selfishness and there's no real coordination. But I think as Project 2025 started to heat up and there was this attempt to kind of organize the MAGA movement, organize Trumpism into like a coherent political force, there was this fear that without someone like Trump to replace Trump when he dies or whatever, they were kind of screwed.

• 19:25Ryan Broderick?

  I think the Trump assassination attempts were really freaking people out. So I suspect there was maybe some whispers among the MAGA movement that Charlie Kirk could be a replacement for Trump, that they were sort of grooming him to be the right-wing AOC, the kind of person who could take over as this, the cult of personality. And when he was killed, that not only sort of, you know, wrapped that whole idea up, I think it also proved that the internet still just like, isn't there for that. Like, and especially the right-wing internet.

• 20:10Ryan Broderick?

  Like, the right-wing internet is just not popular enough. Like, so the, so when the, the US government and, you know, conservative media were trying to turn Charlie Kirk into a martyr, they were doing double work, trying to also tell people who he was, without admitting that they were trying to tell people who he was. So it's like, they can't admit he wasn't popular, they have to convince people that he was popular, and then they have to convince people that it's like a great tragedy that he died. And then they have to try to dance around the fact that the bullets that killed him were covered in memes and that the whole thing is a joke. And so I, I just think it's too much work. It's, it's way too much work for a government like the Trump administration to do.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  You said to me off mic that when they, uh, put the flags at half mast is where you thought that they like started to really overstep or, or like overplay their hand? Is that just because like, that's another, that's like a crucial example of like, really overvaluing who this person was outside of internet land?

• 21:14Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I definitely think it's like, it's an early, you know, moment where everyone's like, why are you doing that? But, you know, if they had just left it there, okay. Or, or if they had done some sort of super serious, super somber state funeral, I think people still would be like, why are you doing this for like a YouTuber? But the funeral being so bombastic and so ridiculous, and Erica Kirk being so unable to sort of sell the fact that she cared that her husband died, I think is where things really fall apart.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  I was looking up, uh, the last time that JD Vance had to talk about Tyler Robinson. And it was like to convince some right-wing podcaster that like Tyler Robinson, that he believes Tyler Robinson actually did it. And like, I could like feel the disappointment in, in the conversation. Is that just, it's always more fun to have a conspiracy? Like, are you surprised at how background noise and, and minor the, the court case seems to be?

• 22:17Ryan Broderick?

  I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure it's just because you can't film in that state, right?

• 22:21Speaker 02

  You just think it's like not creating enough content?

• 22:23Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, so I mean, basically, I don't know if the average person knows this, but basically every state has different rules around how you can report on criminal cases. Some allow, like New York, criminal sketch artists, some like California are totally psychotic and allow cameras in the courtroom. I have, I have personal feelings about what should be acceptable. If you're ever wondering like why certain cases don't have national attention, I would say nine times out of 10, no matter how high profile the case is, it is almost always because of the individual state's requirements on reporting. So like the Lindsay Clancy trial and Massachusetts, I believe, is being filmed because Massachusetts

• 23:08Ryan Broderick?

  allows it. So like Tyler, Tyler Robinson, I believe is in Utah and they don't allow it. I always laugh when people are like, no one's talking about this. And it's like, no one's talking about it because reporters can't film it and, you know, that's it. Like, people talk about the New York ones because the, the, like, sketch artists are funny, like the Diddy sketch is funny, or whatever.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  That would have been so much bigger though.

• 23:33Ryan Broderick?

  But part of the reason they don't do that is so you don't like, you know, screw up your, uh, screw up your jury pool. But yeah, so like the Lindsay Clancy trial, yeah, it's a big story and it has a lot of like tendrils into, you know, the state of being a mom in the 21st century. But I think it is also the fact that all these TikTokers can watch a Reuters livestream and just rip clips and then use that for conspiracy. Half the conspiracy theories about the Lindsay Clancy trial are how the husband is like looking on the stand, you know? So like, you're just not going to get that kind of attention in a case that's being tried in Utah where there's no media allowed at all.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Two more for you.

• 24:15Ryan Broderick?

  By the way, I personally think that's good. Uh, I think like, it's good that like, having like a reporter in the room, cool, you should read it. You can read about what's happening with Tyler Robinson. But the fact that there isn't a camera in there means that someone like JD Vance can't be like, look at this little worm squirming on the stand, he's hiding something, like, it's kind of good, I think. It's a good thing.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, see, see the Johnny Depp trial.

• 24:40Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, yeah, like, I think that there's like literally nothing, like court TV should be illegal. Like, it's, that's not a, that's not a thing that should exist in a functioning democracy. Uh, yeah.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Two questions to close out. Looking back at your initial reaction, looking back at how you felt when this happened, you know, you said at some point, you hope you don't feel silly for what you're about to say in five years. Do you feel silly about what you said last year?

• 25:03Ryan Broderick?

  I don't, because I got a lot of traffic for it, so that doesn't, you know, that's all that really matters for me. But no, the, uh, the thing that I keep coming back to, and perhaps I will write about this week, is like the, the, the one moment of that day that has like really stuck with me and kind of haunted me for the last year, is the TikTok user Brother Elder.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 25:28Ryan Broderick?

  It's the, for those who don't remember, it's the Mormon influencer, which we should definitely do an episode about, by the way, like Mormon influencers in general, um, who is both, I think, he was the one grabbing hats, like from the stage, and then he's filming himself running and telling people to follow him for like more updates. And I think there's just something so rotten about that. And throughout this whole episode, throughout this whole year of discourse, no one is really talking about the role that tech platforms played in this entire thing happening, both the rise of Charlie Kirk, the murder of Charlie Kirk, and then the way we process the murder of Charlie Kirk.

• 26:13Ryan Broderick?

  I think, you know, my hope is that we, I don't know, I keep waiting for like everyone to be like, that's it, I'm done with the internet, I'm walking away. Like, you know, there have been moments, you know, throughout history where like, a population goes, that's it, I'm done, no thanks, and they all kind of walk away from whatever is sort of ruining their lives. And I keep waiting for that moment with social media, uh, and I thought maybe the Charlie Kirk one would be it. We're like, okay, no more right-wing media for me, no more sensationalist social media for me, but it's actually gotten worse. Like, straight line from a million influencers filming Charlie Kirk's head exploding to

• 26:56Ryan Broderick?

  clavicular, you know, like, it, it's just a total shamelessness. And so we just, we haven't hit the bottom yet, apparently.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  You think clavicular murdered Charlie Kirk?

• 27:04Ryan Broderick?

  That's right, I do. Just keeps getting worse.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  He did it for AOC. Um, as you were saying that, I wanted to see whether or not those hats are on eBay.

• 27:14Ryan Broderick?

  Are they?

• 27:15Speaker 02

  I did not find them. There is a, a, a paper from the day that he is slain that is available for 39, for $29.99. And then there is a autographed, uh, Charlie Kirk hat, a Nick Shirley autographed Charlie Kirk trucker hat that is listed for $1,800 and no one has bid on it. I think that the Mormon influencer needs like a Kaochi eBay situation to be able to offload like Charlie Kirk death merch.

• 27:42Ryan Broderick?

  I don't think he matters. I don't think he will matter. I think he contributed nothing and died for no reason. And I do think we will look back probably and say, okay, maybe, I, I don't believe in the idea that like politics gets better or worse, it's just always, like, the right-wing will never disappear, but like this era of them, I think, I think ends with Charlie Kirk. Like, that's the beginning of the end. Because there's really no way to come back from that, I think. They, they kind of failed.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Beginning of the end of what specifically?

• 28:16Ryan Broderick?

  Trumpism, Make America Great Again, whatever. Like, they, none of those people get along anymore anyways. Like, the long 2010s, you know, ends with Charlie Kirk dying. Like, it's just, it, whatever comes next will probably be bad in a different way, but this era, I think, wraps up now. It starts to wrap up now.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  My last question for you was going to be, do you want to say who you think Charlie Kirk was, but I think you just did.

• 28:40Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, he's nothing, nobody. There's no, uh, Harambe for Gen Alpha. That's, that's his legacy.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Oof. Uh, thanks for listening, we'll be back soon.

• 28:54Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, we're filming this from our new studio, which we are still currently putting together, but we will be back to a normal schedule very soon.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  We miss you.

• 29:02Speaker 03

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