The people who think every celebrity is secretly trans

Today we’re talking about the moral panic around “transvestigation,” an online “game” where people try to identify who is or isn’t trans. Particularly popular in right-wing corners of the internet, transvestigating is a subculture of people — with no background in biology at all — who analyze photos, facial features, and body proportions to “prove” their claims, that basically every celebrity is secretly trans. Kitty Kimz and Jeff from Free Country USA join us once again to trace the surprising early origins of this conspiratorial thinking about trans identities and how it’s continued to permeate culture on the internet and beyond. Our guests Kitty Kimz & Jeff host Free Country USA, a podcast you can find on YouTube @freecountrypod, Instagram @freecountrypodusa, and everywhere else you listen or watch pods. Sponsors Get 50% off and free breakfast for a year from Factor by going to https://www.factormeals.com/panic50off and use panic50off at checkout! Want even more Panic World content? Like ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, and access to our exclusive Discord? Sign up for a membership at: https://www.patreon.com/PanicWorld. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:26Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, thanks for coming back on the show. Um, I, I feel very uncomfortable to ask this question, but it's in the top of my outline, so I'm gonna ask it. Kitty, I have been told I need to ask you about detransitioning because you want to be canceled.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  I didn't wanna be canceled.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  I thought, okay, I, this was like a year or two ago. It was, I did this bit where I was just like, so I've been publicly trans online for like six, seven, eight years or something. And I came out, fuck you.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  I, I came out a couple of years ago and I was like, hey, everyone, I'm detransitioning. This was my plan the whole time. I just like transitioned as an experiment, just to see what it was like. But like, I always planned on detransitioning. The trans community got really mad at me, but it was very split in half. It wasn't like a normal split in the trans community. I had like multiple couples tell me they like got into fights with their like partners and like broke, breakups happened because of this bit. Felt like the trans community couldn't decide what is and isn't a valid reason to transition. And my whole point the whole time was like, you should be able to transition for any reason you want, even if it's as a fucking experiment and you don't feel like you're trans.

• 1:59Ryan Broderick?

  I was gonna just stop you, the trans community can't decide what is and isn't valid, as sort of the defining thesis of, at least my observations from the outside. Today, we are talking about the trans community. We're gonna be talking about the moral panic over transvesticating, the sort of game, particularly in right-wing spaces of like, can you identify who and who isn't trans, and it has spiraled out of control over the years. But first, an introduction. My name is Ryan Broderick, with me as always is Grant Irving, and this is Panic World, a show about how the internet warps our minds, our culture, and eventually, reality. And joining me today, everyone's favorite, very normal siblings,

• 2:41Ryan Broderick?

  from the Free Country Podcast, Key, Kim, and Jeff, welcome back, guys.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Thank you for having us back.

• 2:46Ryan Broderick?

  So as I said, we're talking about transvesticating. It's a fixation that I assume well-adjusted people on the internet, like, maybe don't even know about, but it is something that, like, impacts culture. And we're gonna today try to figure out, you know, like, how seriously we should be taking these transvestigators. But first, Jeff, last time you were on the show, it was for a NoFap episode, and you told us, as preparation, you took up NoFap again. So have you been transvestigating people?

• 3:18Speaker 03

  Well, you know, this one's even better, because I didn't have to, like, I've been doing it before, I've been, like, anytime I see another, anytime I see a person, especially if there's someone with celebrity or status, you know, I'm doing, I'm looking for the Adam's apple. I'm comparing hand length to the size of the rest of their body, you know, just stuff that, like, people do to make sure, like, you know if you're around someone who's trans, because that's just something you wanna know that you can do.

• 3:46Ryan Broderick?

  That was really quick. That was a really quick answer. Sorry I asked. Yeah, I wanna sort of, at the top here, say that I filed transvestigating under a folder that I've, for years, been calling "Human beings weren't meant to see this many images." And I do think...

• 4:08Ryan Broderick?

  And so a lot of people picking apart, yeah, as you said, Adam's apples, hand lengths. I, I, you know, the, the same kind of like race scientists that are like trying to measure people's skulls via selfies and stuff. All of this, I think is just a quirk of evolution, really. But, um, can either of you define transvestigating? I, I tried a little bit at the top of like, you know, what, what do you usually see in these threads and in these communities that are doing this sort of thing?

• 4:33Speaker 03

  It's gotta be one of the weirdest conspiracy theories. There's so many strange ones out there, but the idea that like every celebrity is trans. Like I see a lot of, like a lot of images of, yeah, just like closeups of Adam's apples, like diagrams and lines. Like, like you're watching a football game with like the circles around certain things.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  It's like people who have never studied biology or anatomy, suddenly thinking they're experts at biology and anatomy and trying to place people in two boxes when it's always been a spectrum.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  And it's like, sometimes I see, see what you mean about the images, cause a lot of times you see someone from like a different angle and maybe they look like more masculine or more feminine. So if you see a thousand pictures of someone, probably one of them is going to make it kind of look like that they're trans.

• 5:17Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. I also just think like, if you are somebody who spends all day on the internet, you probably have like a really specific kind of body dysmorphia that like you then take out on other people, right? Like also this probably doesn't help, but like I was watching the reality show Traitors. I was catching up this week and modern celebrities, especially like people on TV all the time, they look really crazy because of, you know, HD cameras and 4K. Like the celebrities don't look like normal human beings anymore. So I can, I can kind of imagine that that would make you a little paranoid if you were already predisposed to being paranoid. But have either of you ever like encountered a transvestigator, either online or off, like someone who's like really into this sort of thing?

• 5:54Speaker 03

  Well, people are doing it to like every video that is posted with cat in, people are like telling.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. People are like looking at cat of being like, you will never be a man.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  Cause they're so confused about which way it's going.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  The thing that clocks me, gets me clocked the most is my voice. Like people like will see me initially, like if I'm on like Omegle, for example, and the second I start talking, they're like, what the fuck is that voice? And I'm just like.

• 6:22Ryan Broderick?

  How often are you on Omegle?

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Too much.

• 6:26Ryan Broderick?

  In 2026, you're on Omegle like enough.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  It's only TV.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, they.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  It's only TV.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  The creator of Omegle shut it down.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, they shut down.

• 6:34Speaker 03

  Because he like couldn't in good faith like allow it to operate anymore.

• 6:38Ryan Broderick?

  What's Omegle? Omegle is sort of like a, it's sort of like Chatroulette. It's like, it's like, it's like an evolution of Chatroulette, basically.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  Back in the day, in like 2012, I like met a girl on Omegle and dated her in real life for years.

• 6:51Ryan Broderick?

  Wow.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:52Ryan Broderick?

  That's amazing. I mean, I'm sure she was strange.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  I think she's married to somebody else now.

• 7:01Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, I wonder if they met on Omegle. I wonder if the video roulette just sort of like picked a new person.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 7:08Ryan Broderick?

  Um, so I'm, you know, I, I think there have been, let's call this like gender-based paranoia for a long time. In fact, like if you pull up like any random comedy, even Simpsons episodes from the, you know, the, the 90s, 2000s, you're going to see all kinds of trans jokes. Uh, it's, it's, it's a part of culture. But we wanted to kind of figure out when like this specific kind of like internet-based conspiratorial thinking about trans identities started. And according to our researcher, Adam, who started digging into this, the, kind of the best-known modern case of this, the earliest, would be in July 2014, when on her book tour, Joan Rivers offhandedly made jokes

• 7:47Ryan Broderick?

  that Obama was the first gay president, saying, "We all know Michelle is TSLer..." "...dot, dot, dot, a transgender."

• 7:56Speaker 03

  Joan Rivers was the first person to say that?

• 7:59Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 03

  Like, she's saying it like, "We all know."

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I was gonna say everyone was saying about Lady Gaga, but I guess I don't know any like prominent figures.

• 8:08Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, so, yeah. And, and in fact, we've done previous episodes about, uh, the, you know, the, the ma, the like hysteria around, uh, Ciara, the singer, being a hermaphrodite, Lady Gaga secretly having a penis. There were all kinds of these rumors floating around, but this was the first time that like someone important enough, like made that comment, that it actually caused a scandal. So, the LA Times writes at the time, and with the cultural... Understanding and knowledge of transgender issues expanding. It seems odd that the comedian, despite her advanced age.

• 8:41Ryan Broderick?

  Okay, uh, would make such an out of touch and disrespectful comment, especially when it's been so important for her to remain relevant and in the game. So, and then CNN like has Joan Rivers on and she says, I think it's a compliment. Okay. Uh, she's so attractive, tall, with a beautiful body, great face, does makeup. The most generous women I know are transgender.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  She's trans because she's hot. That's a perfect, that's such a perfect pivot. That's genius.

• 9:07Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, no, it's actually a compliment.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  I, I would like to say-

• 9:10Speaker 03

  I think she's secretly trans and I wanna fuck that.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Can I, can I just say, I think it makes sense that the first example is about a black woman because transvestigating is rooted in a lot of racism.

• 9:22Ryan Broderick?

  I think that's exactly right.

• 9:23Speaker 03

  Wow. Nice. That was, dude, that was really woke. That was awesome.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  In a good way.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 9:32Ryan Broderick?

  Um, she then doubled down on her joke, basically as she was dying.

• 9:38Ryan Broderick?

  Close to death, she still doubles down on it.

• 9:41Speaker 03

  Was Joan Rivers alive when FDR was alive? Is she that old?

• 9:44Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, that's a great question. Uh, let me see.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Was she old enough to be like, I think that he's trans?

• 9:49Ryan Broderick?

  So, uh, well, I mean, she was born in 1933. So like, there is some overlap.

• 9:56Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, there's definitely like some overlap there. Um, but the reason-

• 9:59Speaker 03

  It was the first thing she remembers when she was born, that the president was trans.

• 10:04Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, exactly. She was born into this life. So, the reason we're starting with Joan Rivers though, is because not only does it cause a scandal and kind of like, you know, weird way elevate this kind of discourse into, you know, popular culture and into the news cycle. It's taken very, very seriously by Alex Jones. And Alex Jones runs with it.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 10:28Ryan Broderick?

  And so this is, this is what Alex Jones has to say at the time. He says, "Well, Joan Rivers talked about it the other day and now it's an international news story. The question is, who is Michelle Obama? Is she really a woman? Is she a man? Now, I'm not drawing any conclusions here, but I know this. It's fair to question anything and everything this administration says. There's also been a small percentage, a small statistic of men who identify as females and females who identify as males. And I don't judge that." Okay, woke. I'm just sick of the societal obsession with it. It's clearly being pushed. And what I'm tired of is the force feeding of all this culturally to reduce population and break up the family.

• 11:09Ryan Broderick?

  So that's how we get, that's how we get the sort of like actual right wing obsession with this stuff. And, you know, Alex Jones, at this point, he's talking about like alien human hybrids. And he, he's like, he's kind of jump starting what will eventually be QAnon. And that combines together in, of course, Texas. So this is according to Metro Weekly. You need to Google a picture of George W. Bush kissing the bald head of Jeff Gannon, who's a bald headed gay prostitute. It makes you wonder if Jeff Gannon was having sex with Karl Rove. Jeff Gannon was a gay prostitute who was known for being a top. Do you know what a top is and a bottom?

• 11:51Ryan Broderick?

  Jeff Gannon was a top and he was running around the Bush White House like he was a stray cat. And then on Twitter, um, yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  This sounds like it's from our show.

• 12:00Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. These are just like comments that you get on your show. Um, so, you know, thinking back to basically 10 years ago, you know, how would you, this is such a loaded question. How would you describe, uh, trans discourse in 2014 to 2015?

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Well, dude, I think that what Alex Jones said, it really makes me like sort of nostalgic back when it was like, when conservatives have more of this like libertarian like flavor to what they were saying where.

• 12:28Ryan Broderick?

  They're like, it's fine if they're trans. I just want to know.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  If men want to be women, that's their business because we're not in the business of interfering. It's like now it's like, if you're, you know, now it's like you guys need to get the wall.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like, I need to see your genitals to be able to feel comfortable around you.

• 12:42Ryan Broderick?

  Right. Which is, you know, where we're at now. Um, there's definitely like more of a totalitarian flavor to a lot of this now. Jeff, you, I assume that you've spent a lot of time on 4chan. What would you say is like the, the sort of general consensus around trans people on 4chan?

• 12:59Speaker 03

  That everyone wanted to fuck them or be fucked by them.

• 13:02Ryan Broderick?

  Yes. I, for the record, I knew that. I just didn't want to say it. I, I wanted to make you say that because I didn't want to have to say that.

• 13:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:10Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. I mean, this is the, I, I feel like 2014 is kind of like the beginning of like the 4chan, like femboy meme. I think that like to.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Damn, I missed out.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  No, that's old, dude. That's older than 24. It's like. Femboys posting about those stripy socks have been around since like oh four. I swear to God, the femboys on 4chan talking about like, I don't know. That place on the internet was a place for rejects, right? And what were the two biggest rejects in society at that time were transgender and gender experimenting people and Nazis. Those were like the two things that were you couldn't be that you would only see on TV, but no real person was actually one of those things. And so they all congregated on 4chan and created this like forbidden soup of like weird racist gender experimenting people.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  And that's why it was so funny and why I went on it every single day for that when I was growing up.

• 14:07Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I think that's right. I think it was just sort of a place where you could engage in taboos. And so obviously it's attracting different kinds of people who are into different kinds of taboos. And I think 2014 though is kind of the right moment to think about how this is changing because like right now in our story, we're at, we're in the summer of 2014, which is a couple of months before Gamergate. And like, that's kind of when I say like 4chan stops being fun and, and, and starts like really radicalizing. So like, all of this stuff is of course in the culture of 4chan, the, the, the sort of like the conspiracies, the, the like anti woke, anti PC behavior, the sort of, as you said, social rejects. All of this is like soup.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  I agree. I agree with 2014 is like when it stopped being funny because it became real life.

• 14:56Ryan Broderick?

  I would agree. In July 2014, a week after Joan Rivers makes her comments about Michelle Obama, Laverne Cox becomes the first trans person to be nominated for an Emmy. And then a year later, Olympian and Kardashian Caitlyn Jenner announces she's transitioning with the name change a few months later, and she says that she gets advice on it from Laverne Cox. So like, that is all to say that this, this year, this like sort of like last years of the pre-Trump era, the, the trans movement is like becoming, I would say like a Pop cultural moment in American history. It's kind of funny to look back on like rainbow capitalism now, but like it is, I, I think it's

• 15:40Ryan Broderick?

  important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when we talk about like how big of a deal this was like.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  You want, yeah. Do you want to talk about Laura Jane Grace?

• 15:48Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, sure. Perfect example.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Um, well, I can't say much, honestly, I just, other than like I fucked with Against Me for like a while before.

• 15:57Speaker 03

  That was my first like, oh my God, trans is real moment was because I was a big Against Me fan. And, uh, when she transitioned, because she had a song where she literally said, I wish my name was Laura, I would have been named my, after my mother, I would have grown up to be strong and beautiful like her. And then she became a woman named Laura.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Everyone heard that and was like, oh, what a beautiful metaphor.

• 16:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I thought too. And I was like, oh, like this is like a real thing that people are feeling like that was, and then shortly afterwards was, was Caitlyn Jenner. I don't think it was long afterwards, like maybe like a year or two after that.

• 16:32Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, the

• 16:32Speaker 03

  That was my experience.

• 16:33Ryan Broderick?

  I think the, the Against Me song you're talking about, I think is Ocean Waves, right? I think that's

• 16:37Speaker 03

  I believe, I believe, yeah. I think it's Ocean.

• 16:39Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, something like that. And like, yeah, it was huge. I remember, I remember that as well.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  As Connor said before that, my only exposure to transness was Mrs. Garrison from South Park.

• 16:49Ryan Broderick?

  Was that before or after?

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Before.

• 16:52Ryan Broderick?

  I love having you guys on the show because I have to Google questions like, when did Mr. Garrison transition?

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Two thousand, two thousand, two thousand and five.

• 16:59Ryan Broderick?

  Two thousand and five.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  That's what I'm saying.

• 17:00Ryan Broderick?

  That's wild.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's

• 17:01Ryan Broderick?

  That's incredible.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  That was my first, like, that was my first time I ever conceived of the idea that someone could go male to female was Mrs. Garrison.

• 17:10Ryan Broderick?

  Wow, that's like way earlier than I thought. That's, that's kind of unbelievable to look back on. But yeah, so as this cultural shift is happening, like more and more people, especially in the world of celebrity, which I think is like the, and a really important dimension here. The, the headlines were being generated by famous people transitioning, which. Kind of dovetails perfectly with the contingent of like, right-wing keyboard warriors who are like, becoming obsessed with it and will, will continue to be obsessed with it. So, in 2016, we have Lily Wachowski, one of the directors of The Matrix. Uh, she comes out as transgender. She does so under duress, because the Daily Mail threatens to out her.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  What?

• 17:42Speaker 03

  What? I did not know that.

• 17:45Ryan Broderick?

  Her-

• 17:45Speaker 03

  Damn!

• 17:46Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, her sister had transitioned in 2008 and like, nobody really cared.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it is, The Matrix is about being trans.

• 17:53Ryan Broderick?

  Cleared, definitely. Uh, no question from, yeah. Um, and-

• 17:56Speaker 03

  Red pill is estrogen. Sorry, go ahead.

• 17:59Ryan Broderick?

  We're gonna be talking all about, uh, taking the red pill and seeing trans people everywhere across all forms of media. Right after a word from our sponsors, whoever's brave enough to put an ad in this episode. It has been a busy and chaotic winter, let me tell you. Not having to think about meals for a little bit was fantastic. Thanks to Factor, I had great chef-prepared meals, ready to go whenever I was ready to eat them. No cleanup, no cooking, no prep. It was great. Ready in two minutes, no planning, no cooking. It was amazing. Factor meals have lean proteins, colorful veggies, whole food ingredients, healthy fats.

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• 19:55Ryan Broderick?

  So had either of you guys like seen like a like a like a transvestigation video like before they were like that have you have you seen one of these before?

• 20:07Speaker 03

  I don't know if I've seen full videos. I've seen a lot of threads on X, the everything app.

• 20:12Speaker 04

  I just assumed you had watched a lot of these. So that's what where the next question was leading. The thing that I was pointing to was like pre Tik Tok and pre like X thread where it's just broken down in little segments. Extremely boring, like Dolus guy's voice for over an hour. Comparing index fingers to other things.

• 20:34Ryan Broderick?

  Is that what you're watching, Grant? Like you're spending time watching these?

• 20:37Speaker 04

  That's what I'm doing for my job. Yes.

• 20:39Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, for your job. Oh, for your job.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  What I I get paid to do.

• 20:43Ryan Broderick?

  For the record, Grant suggested the topic of this episode. So like, I think this all kind of ties to like, I get it. You want to like, put it on your taxes that like the the transvestigation Patreon you're paying for for work. No, I totally understand.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't. It does sound like something that I would watch, but it is so boring.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  It is so boring. And it's like, I don't really like like bodies very much.

• 21:07Ryan Broderick?

  Say more about that. We should do a whole other episode about whatever that means.

• 21:15Ryan Broderick?

  I think that would be interesting.

• 21:18Ryan Broderick?

  By by the mid 2010s, it's circulating on right wing spaces like Alex Jones is kind of taking it and running with it. Republicans are picking it up. It's like entered the popular discourse because celebrities are coming out. And we're also seeing the earliest instances of creators who are hopping on it as a trend. Trying to like get audiences with it and like building communities around it. And these have been going like since around 2010. A lot of the videos get taken down. One user that we came across who's like fairly notable in this community is called Jungle Surfer. And these are just some of the titles of their videos over the years. So in 2013, they made a video called Proof Sandy Hook. Was a FEMA drill. That one doesn't appear to be about trans people. That's just they just did that one for fun.

• 22:03Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, in 2014, they did Michelle or Michael Obama. She is a he.

• 22:10Ryan Broderick?

  In 2014, they did Sade transvestigation, which like that's unreal.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  The most beautiful woman.

• 22:18Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, like.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  What the fuck? It was just like the first black person you could think of.

• 22:25Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I think Kitty's point about this being very much tied to like misogyny and racism and like specifically like paranoia of like important and powerful black women is like dead on, like that, that's where this comes from, basically.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  A lot of time I hear conspiracy here, I can kind of understand the anxiety and paranoia behind it. I just like can't connect with this one. Does that make sense? Like, I don't, why are they doing this?

• 22:53Speaker 02

  I personally, I'm just gonna go out on a limb. I think they're all trans, deep down, and that's why they care so much and it's projection.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  That's what it is.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  That's usually, I mean, in my personal experience, that's usually where homophobia comes from.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  They're trans!

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's where transphobia comes from. Every guy that was homophobic, I knew, like heavily homophobic in high school, ended up trying to hit on me before I transitioned.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Or after, or before?

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Before I transitioned.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  Oh, when you were a guy.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it's probably the same thing for people who are like heavily transvestigating. They're trying to.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  They're trying to create a world where everyone is trans.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  So that they can be.

• 23:36Ryan Broderick?

  So they feel comfortable.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  In a world where everyone's trans, no one is.

• 23:39Ryan Broderick?

  I, I have, uh, not a conflicting theory, but like maybe like a supplemental one, which is like, the 2010s was this really strange moment where the whole country kind of felt like, okay, like Obama's president, progress is here, and particularly in the media, you get this like massive wave of like progressive media, in commercials, in music, in movies, in TV. I do wonder if like a lot of these kinds of conspiracy theories start because by going that route, by sort of, by sort of like using the media to sort of say like, okay, like, all of these celebrities are transitioning and, and everyone's gay and, and everything's woke now.

• 24:19Ryan Broderick?

  It, it made it feel conspiratorial? Because it was inherently a media project, a lot of people who were not media literate or like didn't really understand what was going on, felt like, like the president was like beaming gay thoughts into their brain from the TV.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Right, or it's like why there's so many interracial couples in commercials now.

• 24:37Ryan Broderick?

  Exactly.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Like, I'm feeling especially gay lately. It has to be the president's fault.

• 24:42Ryan Broderick?

  I think so.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it has to be some type of Jewish laser.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 04

  I'm with you on the Jewish laser, but Ryan, I think that you hit on something too that is connecting dots for me. The rainbow capitalism of it all.

• 24:53Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 24:54Speaker 04

  There's like veneer at the time that like, nothing was sincere, like everyone was kind of being lied to. Obama was going to be this change president and then just like was pretty much bush. There was this overgrown sense that like, nothing is what it seems and like, that has stayed with us. And this was the first thing like, from like literally the bodies that people are telling us of what they are. Nothing is what it seems. These are all traps. And I think the feeling that they're all traps makes people conspiratorial and like, I think that's why it's had staying power is because like, once you get things like Epstein, it's like, see, nothing is what it seems.

• 25:33Ryan Broderick?

  Epstein was trans.

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Like, one of the only major good things that hap- Almost, I mean, he was like, he's really masculine looking.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  He is. He's a gig- you're saying Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein is a gigachat? Is that what you're?

• 25:47Speaker 03

  Well, if we're just like, if we're talking about purely like a looks matching, like facial scale thing.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Like, not taking all personality and deeds behind it.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, ignore all that. Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's probably like, for his age. But it's like, I see what it's like, under like the Obama years, probably one of the old main good things that happened was like, cultural, social progress around like gay stuff.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, everyone was like, damn, everything still-

• 26:09Speaker 03

  People could feel that.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Everything still sucks that the president is doing, so being gay and trans must also suck.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:16Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, maybe, or just like, I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who like, has no idea what's going on in the world. They ju- like, they're on the internet, and they're sort of looking at culture from the outside and they're thinking like, oh wow, like, everyone's trans now and everything's gay. And there are no white people who are famous anymore. And like, I'm like a terrified psycho and I'm gonna post about it online. Like, that personality type makes sense to me as like, not makes sense to me, like, I'm not that person, but like, I can imagine that person existing.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, your life sucks and everything's gay and you're mad.

• 26:45Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  And you're also, everything sucks, everything's gay, you're gay.

• 26:49Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 26:49Speaker 03

  And you're mad.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  About it.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  And it's gonna, that's gonna come out in so many fun and exciting ways.

• 26:54Ryan Broderick?

  Yes. And I think like, you know, so in the next part of our story here is- There's like no way to do this without making a pun. The transition from transvestitating celebrities to like it just becoming a right wing tool in their sort of playbook. So in December 2016, uh, this guy Jungle Surfer is still blogging all over the map. Um, it then kind of like co- like he's doing a bunch of different conspiracies. But then, uh, it kind of shifts to, uh, one hub for this stuff, which is transvestigator.com. It's a blog run by like several people who are realizing that by doing this, they're getting a lot of views. So this is like 2016. I assume like Facebook is sending a ton of

• 27:38Ryan Broderick?

  traffic to this site. Like it's that kind of era.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  If it's an evil website, Facebook was definitely sending traffic.

• 27:43Ryan Broderick?

  A hundred percent. And most of them are using pseudonyms, so we don't really know who they are, but there was one that we do seem to know who it was. And it's a Christian conspiracy YouTuber who goes by Apostle Laura Lee. And it, this is the moment where transvestigation starts to slide into like Christian evangelicalism. And this is where you start to get the idea that trans people worship the gender fluid god Baphomet.

• 28:10Speaker 05

  In the ritual of Baphomet, the transgender, to show allegiance to him, you had to kiss his ass ring.

• 28:21Ryan Broderick?

  Really?

• 28:22Speaker 05

  And it said both of those things. So I knew that both of those things will become popular in the future. And that, um, somehow calling people the goat would be normalized over the sheep being always the most popular reference.

• 28:44Speaker 06

  God damn, we got some good weed, Cat.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  Ah, yes. Yeah, we got the, it's off camera, but.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  I have a furry Baphomet on my.

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, we do have a.

• 28:53Ryan Broderick?

  So, yeah. Yeah. President Obama mailed it to you directly in the 2010s.

• 29:00Ryan Broderick?

  So they start to like go after different kinds of celebrities too. So they're, they're looking at UFC fighters. A lot of these videos are deleted, but we do have some of the comments here. So these are comments. Underneath, was it, is this Ronda Rousey? Is that who they're talking about?

• 29:17Speaker 04

  It's Ronda Rousey and I think Holly Holm.

• 29:19Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, so let me read this one. And so it says, now where's the hips? All capitalized. Being physically fit doesn't make your hips disappear. If anything, it should make a waist smaller than accentuating those female hips. Consequently, consequently, when a woman's waist is smaller, this will give more swing to the hips while walking and cannot be duplicated. By a male to female. It's a girl thing. It has been my experience when I was weight training that this was so. I was an avid body. Female builder working about two plus hours a day and I never looked like this. Skill issue. I never had an inch to pinch either horizontally or vertically.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Why doesn't this title fighter have a snatched ass waist?

• 30:11Speaker 03

  I just want the best woman title fighter ever like look like a Barbie doll or like a video game character. Like me.

• 30:19Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, like me.

• 30:20Speaker 04

  This is the line that gets me. Moving on to the extra large male neck. I never had that either.

• 30:26Ryan Broderick?

  It's like, I don't know.

• 30:27Speaker 04

  Cause you know, the only people who are fucking training their necks to be big so that you don't get choked out are fighters. It's a stupid thing for anyone else to do.

• 30:36Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. And you can, and you can like, kind of see how this intersects with turf stuff too. We've done episodes on sort of like the rise of turfdom across the web. It's around the same time, but it's, it's clearly like a bunch of conservative people having like a freak out about like what genders are supposed to be doing what? I think. And it's all kind of happening simultaneously.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  The, when I see like comparisons being drawn like that, it, it almost feels like it's coming from a place of like needing to have affirmation for yourself.

• 31:05Ryan Broderick?

  Sure.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  Like asserting your own womanhood.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think a lot of cis women get like insecure when someone transitions.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially if that person's hotter than them.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that would probably be a bummer if you're a woman.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Honestly, probably.

• 31:21Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, probably. But it, I, I, I, yeah, I mean, I've.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  You still gotta be nice about it.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:29Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, I have a trans man friend who transitioned and, and he can grow a really full, great beard and.

• 31:36Speaker 03

  And you can't.

• 31:37Ryan Broderick?

  And he can.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  And you're a little bit jealous.

• 31:38Ryan Broderick?

  I am.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  You should start a blog about how much you hate trans.

• 31:41Ryan Broderick?

  I, yeah, I agree.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you should.

• 31:43Ryan Broderick?

  I agree.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Honestly, I wouldn't.

• 31:45Ryan Broderick?

  He can grow a really good beard and he's got like a really good fashion sense. I can't pull that off, you know, and so I am jealous a little bit. So I, I guess I, I can put myself in those shoes.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Honestly, your beard is fine and you have great fashion sense.

• 31:57Ryan Broderick?

  Thank you. Thank you very much. Uh, that means a lot, actually.

• 32:00Speaker 04

  And Kitty has no incentive to kiss up to you.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Look, that's totally sincere.

• 32:05Ryan Broderick?

  But no, but Kitty, I think, I think you're right that there is this sort of like deep seated, gender essentialist fear that's coming to the surface. It's a lot of people who are completely spun out and trying to figure out like what women should look like. And they're doing it completely alone in their houses staring at images, which like, you know, is gonna make you crazy, I think.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  Well, NoFab kind of came to the conclusion that people needed to just go outside. And I feel like we're getting, I feel like that's probably the moral of the story of a lot of the lessons you're presenting to your audience.

• 32:35Ryan Broderick?

  That's why we have a tagline at the end of every episode, just say, go outside, basically.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. Well, there you go.

• 32:41Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, all right, episode's done, guys. Thanks for coming.

• 32:45Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, so 2017 to 2019 is when this world starts to shift again. So just to sort of like keep, keep this all moving, you know, and, and keep track of where we are. So it starts with the world of celebrity. It's fairly apolitical. Alex Jones picks it up. It starts to get attraction in right wing spaces. From there, it makes the jump to like a dedicated community and starts to like mix with like weird Christian evangelical kind of nonsense. 2017 to 2019 is when it becomes so big that it starts to branch out into different flavors of transvestigation. So this is when you start getting anti-feminist YouTubers who are doing it. It's when you get the, uh, kind of the creation of what we would now call Kiwi Farms.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Ah, interesting.

• 33:30Ryan Broderick?

  And so now Kiwi Farms is basically running like 24/7, multiple threads, transvestigating not just celebrities, but also just random people that they find on the internet and become obsessed with. And, and so now, you know, basically in the span of three years, we've gone from kind of like a fringe, right-wing idea to just like a part of internet culture that you can just do to people and you can just sort of terrorize people with. And unlike the people like Jungle Surfer who were transvestigating, you know, a celebrity as part of a larger conspiracy theory, now there's just YouTube channels, that's the only thing they're doing and they're just doing it to all kinds of different people. And we're gonna look at right now a YouTube channel called Rebooting Christianity.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  As, as a digital marketing, you know, back with digital marketing background, I can respect that.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  From, I can't respect it, but it is, uh...

• 34:21Speaker 03

  It's a good idea to be evil with.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:24Ryan Broderick?

  Super, super smart, good, good content play. Anyone listening, listen for more social media tips. Make a SEO-based transvestigation YouTube channel and go back in time and do it in 2017.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  We should have our black nose tape.

• 34:39Ryan Broderick?

  Exactly.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Oh, we should, dude.

• 34:41Ryan Broderick?

  Um, and this is also when things are becoming so chaotic and so distributed that we start to see like a need for a larger point to all this. And that's when we get...

• 34:53Ryan Broderick?

  God, all this shit is so fucking stupid, man. This is when we get the 2020 transpocalypse. Yeah, so Grant can pull up this video here and we'll watch the first 60 seconds. So this starts kicking around in 2018.

• 35:09Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 35:09Speaker 06

  Is everything in place? The Matrix is everywhere.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  We can see that.

• 35:16Ryan Broderick?

  Also, yeah, it opens with a Matrix crawl, which is like, and Matrix scenes.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  It is six minutes of this. It is six minutes of quoting The Matrix and other sci-fi movies and then just showing different celebrities.

• 35:30Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  And showing that this is, that this is a whole skeet.

• 35:34Ryan Broderick?

  And this is from a blog post about the transpocalypse. Uh, this video...

• 35:41Ryan Broderick?

  This video is not intended to...

• 35:42Speaker 04

  Do you want the still on, Ryan, or do you want me to take this off?

• 35:44Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, you could just have it play silently while I read about it. That's fine. That's a really dark fucked up thing to do. I'm, I'm choking it out. Yeah, so this is, yeah, this is, for people who are listening to this and not watching, this is like footage of the guy from They Live, putting on the They Live glasses and then like being, like discovering the different celebrities who are secretly trans. And the blog post that went along with this video reads, "This video is not intended to be mean to anyone, or a suggestion to hurt or kill anyone, nor is it to prove anything conclusively about anyone in particular. If people want to try and change their natural born sex, that's their decision, but if people are being intentionally deceived, it is our job as truthers to shed light on that

• 36:29Ryan Broderick?

  deception. This video is simply shedding light on a huge deception, which has been targeted at us all since we were children."

• 36:38Speaker 03

  I mean, I think the video is pretty good. It's good editing.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Well done, well done.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  It's like, it's, it's nice to see someone understand the thesis of the matrix that it is about transitioning.

• 36:48Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  And it would be really funny if you had They Live glasses that told you if somebody was trans or not.

• 36:53Ryan Broderick?

  They're called Meta Ray-Bans, and they will soon do that, yes.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:01Ryan Broderick?

  And we're gonna talk about that and more after a word from our sponsors, Meta Ray-Bans. They'll help you clock people in public against their will.

• 37:12Speaker 00

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• 38:07Speaker 02

  Or if they're not trans, it can make them trans.

• 38:08Ryan Broderick?

  That's true. No, actually, no, that's what the glasses do. They don't expose trans people. They make people trans when you look at them. That's right.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just setting.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  Can't Grok do that right now? Can't you just say Grok undress, undress this male?

• 38:21Ryan Broderick?

  Hey, look, okay, here's a free idea to have some fun online. Use Grok to make different right-wingers trans on X. I think.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Don't do that.

• 38:33Ryan Broderick?

  I would not do that.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  I use Grok to transition Ryan. I made a, I made my, I made a woman version of myself with Grok the other day and it gave huge jugs.

• 38:44Ryan Broderick?

  Hey, that's.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  And it made me Mexican too, for some reason.

• 38:47Ryan Broderick?

  That's cool, man. That's great.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  I hate.

• 38:50Ryan Broderick?

  I love having you on the show.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  You pay for Grok?

• 38:55Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, yeah, I do.

• 38:57Ryan Broderick?

  You pay for Grok?

• 38:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  That just comes with Twitter Blue, right?

• 39:01Speaker 03

  No.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Or, oh, no? Jesus Christ, man.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  Well, I use, I use, I pay for all the major LLMs.

• 39:08Ryan Broderick?

  Sure. No, you gotta support them. That's true.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  Well, it's not that I use it a lot for work. I'm a computer programmer, so AI really comes in handy. If I, people who really hate LLMs, I've been told that what I do is like the appropriate excuse for it. It just makes coding so much faster.

• 39:25Ryan Broderick?

  I was vibe coding with Claude this morning. It makes it very easy.

• 39:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, you know, you can't, it's like if I wasn't, I'm not gonna sit here and justify my use of it. I also use it to generate pictures of myself with huge jugs, but.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  I use it to like help me make hot furry avatars in VR chat in Unity, so.

• 39:41Ryan Broderick?

  Hey, you guys are both doing really normal stuff with LLMs and that's great.

• 39:47Ryan Broderick?

  Kitty, now that we've sort of like spun, yeah, now that we've sort of spun through like a fairly compressed history of, of, I think what looking back was like a massive sea change politically, culturally around this stuff. You know, like, what are your sort of memories of, I guess, like both like what was happening inside the trans community online at the time, but then also like how it, like, how it felt like you guys were being perceived from the, these sort of like fringe and then less fringe far-right spaces?

• 40:16Speaker 02

  I tried to come out as trans when I was like 20, in like 2013, 2014. No one knew what the fuck that was in real life.

• 40:23Speaker 03

  I didn't.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  No one knew what being trans or furry was like at all. And it's been very weird to have, to see that start popping up on the internet. Um, around like, it was more like 2015, 2016 for me, when I started seeing trans people talked about on the internet. And now it's what everyone talks about and has an opinion about, like, all the time. It was mainly either people heavily involved in the gay community or very chronically online that like, actually knew what being trans was.

• 40:54Ryan Broderick?

  It's interesting that like, by the, like, kind of going back to what Jeff was saying about like these weird shared online spaces in the early 2010s. Like, it is strange to see the far-right, in a bad way, learning about trans people faster than popular culture was.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. And it's like, because when I, like, like I said, like, growing up on 4chan or whatever, I just saw it like, and honestly, even up until I was like 14, 15, I saw it as like the butt of a joke more than anything.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  It was definitely that. All of the early 2000s, trans people are always the butt of the joke. And still, actually, that, that's a good point. Like, we still really aren't in media. Like, we're not in pop culture still. We're just like the talking point of like politics. But like, as far as like pop culture, there's still like, almost no trans representation. So I never thought of it like that. Like, the right has kind of, yeah, moved along faster with, uh, trans stuff than pop culture has.

• 41:53Ryan Broderick?

  Like the trans community was so online in the 2000s and early 2010s. And the far right was equally online and oftentimes using the same websites and the in the same communities. But the nature of both communities, the trans community and the far right, like not being mainstream and needing a place to communicate. They were aware of each other much earlier than mainstream media than mainstream discourse. And because of that, there's like this weird interplay between the two that I wonder what it feels like for like a normal person. Finding out about all this, even now, does the average person be like, I have no idea what you're talking about like, why, why are you talking about like?

• 42:38Ryan Broderick?

  If Rod Stewart really has an Adam's apple or not?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  I'd say probably the average normie, like the average like cis het normie still has pretty much no opinion on trans people. They had no kind of like what it is now and that people like change genders, but that's like the extent.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  I used to not so much these days, but I used to hang out in a lot of like dive bars that were just like full of mostly old conservative guys. And I would say if one of them started talking about how they think that like Rod Stewart or fucking like, I don't know. Was secretly trans. I think everyone at that bar would be like, what are you talking about? Like, well, you sound insane. That's, that's kind of how I feel. I feel like this is, this is really niche stuff. Reserved for a very bizarre population of the internet and the, but the people who are into it are really into it. Cause there's some weird like psychic undercurrent to it that I can't.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Probably comes from insecurity.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  I can't tap into it. Like, I just can't tap into it. You see what I mean? Yeah. Insecurity.

• 43:35Ryan Broderick?

  It's funny. I've had conversations over the years that, you know, are like in the, those kind of like dive bars full of old guys, right?

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:43Ryan Broderick?

  And now like they will start like ranting about trans people in the media. And for several of these instances, I've like pointed out that to the old guy doing his rant or the old woman doing her rant. They have trans friends or trans friends, like they have children who are trans or whatever. And they'll be like, but that's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the media.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Well, that's the classic conservative mindset, right? Is it, it's, everything is horrible, but you reserve special exceptions for the people who are close to you in your life.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Cause they're one of the good ones.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:12Ryan Broderick?

  Right, right.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  People tend to freak out and like come to pretty rash decisions or conclusions when their reality gets skewed.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  And people find a lot of comfort in their gender, I think. And like, once that is starts to become warped, uh, I think they just kind of lose it a little bit.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Right. If I like found some piece of media or something like if I had like an egg cracking moment, as you say, like at thirty, I would probably start saying and acting really strange.

• 44:46Speaker 03

  Like if there's something that made me question like how, because I am like, like you said, I find a lot of comfort in my gender. I really do. I experienced gender euphoria as a man all the time. And if there was, I can't, it's like really actually hard for me to imagine.

• 44:59Ryan Broderick?

  How, how, what was, what was the last time you experienced gender euphoria as a man? What happened?

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Honestly, it's like, it's small things, it's small things. It's like when I, when I strike a business deal, when I make a deal with somebody.

• 45:10Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that's sick.

• 45:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Right?

• 45:15Speaker 03

  Like when I, a striking affair deal is like one that I like.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  Is one of my favorite.

• 45:23Ryan Broderick?

  I thought you were gonna be like, when I like groom my mustache or something. You're like, no, when I like get a.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I don't.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  A firm handshake just really does it for me.

• 45:31Ryan Broderick?

  A firm handshake.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  A firm handshake indeed. And I don't, one of the more feminine things I do, I don't groom my own mustache. I get it done professionally.

• 45:38Ryan Broderick?

  I think that that's actually more masculine. You ever got a straight razor shave? Oh, those things are unbelievable. I can't do a straight razor shave anymore because when I do it, I get kind of puffy and I look like J D Vance.

• 45:49Speaker 04

  The show can't handle that. We can't survive that.

• 45:53Ryan Broderick?

  Um, to kind of like start, you know, wrapping up the, our timeline here of how transvestigation just be kind of became part of political warfare around the world. Uh, in 2021, we get the first case of a celebrity responding to allegations that they're trans, like, and not like in the way that like Lady Gaga, you know, Lady Gaga has that famous interview. I think it's with Anderson Cooper in the two thousands, where she's like, so what if I am? Yeah. Super fucking sick.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  She's so awesome.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  So base.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  She's so cool.

• 46:24Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, she rips. Um, in, in this case, Brigitte Macron went in a different direction.

• 46:31Ryan Broderick?

  The first lady of France sued bloggers who said that she was born a man. They're convicted of slander in September 24, uh, 24. And then eh, last year in July, an appeals court overturned that ruling. But then Brigitte Macron announced that she's going to be suing Candace Owens uh, for, for transvestigating her. This is also when we start to see kind of like this spread out into like the hysteria around like women's sports. So uh, in 2023, Katie Ledecky wins the swimming championships. She's transvestigated hard enough that like Snopes, like the, the debunking website has to deal with it and address it. It starts getting written up as like a big meme, uh, essentially by places like Vice that do an article on it.

• 47:17Speaker 07

  Went to see this movie on Friday. I wanted to cringe when my husband said she's pretty. He can't see that they're both trans. How do you and your husband broach this topic? He thinks I'm nuts. Well, that sucks. I'm on husband number three and I finally got one with an open mind. Joy is on her third husband because she cannot stop transvestigating. Testosterone can do some amazing things. Still a girl, I was having a really hard time seeing anything even kind of manly about Marilyn Monroe. And suddenly it was like bam.

• 47:47Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So this is, this is an example of this uh, of transvestigation around Taylor Swift. So this post reads, Taylor Swift updates lol. Are you a bloke? Because uh, yeah, we should also say like, there's a lot of British people who do this. Like a lot of weird fucking British people are obsessed with this.

• 48:02Speaker 03

  I knew there's a reason I couldn't tap into it.

• 48:06Ryan Broderick?

  The, the way, this post, which is completely incoherent, writes, a biological fact to tell the difference between a man and a woman is a woman's ring finger is shorter than the index finger. But for a guy, his ring finger is longer than the index finger.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  Which one's your ring finger?

• 48:24Speaker 02

  The one your wedding ring goes on.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Which is?

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 48:28Speaker 03

  Well, I'm not married.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  This one.

• 48:31Speaker 04

  Your pinky.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  Wait, so that one's supposed to be longer than my index finger, which is this one?

• 48:37Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Your pinky's your ring finger. Index finger is your pointing finger.

• 48:42Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, I'm gonna feel really weird now. I just realized that one of my ring fingers is significantly longer than my other ring finger.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  So we're both trans?

• 48:52Ryan Broderick?

  I don't know what this means, actually, because like, I think my fingers are different lengths.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Wait, actually, Sam.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  You're bi-gender, Ryan. Congratulations.

• 49:00Ryan Broderick?

  I don't know what to determine it.

• 49:01Speaker 04

  My right ring finger is way longer than my left one.

• 49:03Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, my right, my right ring finger is gigantic. Am I gonna die? What does this mean?

• 49:10Speaker 02

  I would like to say I'm somewhat guilty of transvestigating.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  But in a, in a, in kind of a reverse way, because I'm fully convinced that J.K. Rowling is a trans man, um, in the closet.

• 49:26Speaker 04

  That's in the outline. It's, we just haven't gotten there yet.

• 49:29Ryan Broderick?

  Courier, uh, Courier, we're gonna have to get some legal counsel on this episode.

• 49:36Ryan Broderick?

  Okay, yeah, so, yeah, let's spin, let's spin forward so you can talk more about that, so.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  Watching the last episode that we did, I was laughing my ass off at there being three different disclaimers throughout.

• 49:50Ryan Broderick?

  Look, you gotta like, you gotta like, take it really slowly with people, you know, like, with this episode, no disclaimers, we'll just go right into it and like, they can get mad about it.

• 49:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think this one's going like more little.

• 50:00Ryan Broderick?

  No, I'm gonna put a disclaimer that Ryan had makes a discovery about his fingers that's now gonna distract him for the rest of the recording. I'm like really, like, freaking out right now. This is insane.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  I have to piss real quick.

• 50:13Ryan Broderick?

  Go for it.

• 50:13Speaker 04

  Wait, so, okay, I'm gonna make sure my package didn't get stolen. I'll be right back to you.

• 50:17Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  Are you saying yours are different on both hands?

• 50:21Ryan Broderick?

  According to Google AI, it's not universal. Many people have a slightly longer ring finger on their dominant hand, often the right.

• 50:29Speaker 03

  Are you right or left-handed?

• 50:30Ryan Broderick?

  I'm, I'm right-handed. Some have longer left fingers, and the difference can vary influenced by genetics, prenatal hormones, and even hand use.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  Does it say anything about transgenderism in that?

• 50:41Ryan Broderick?

  It doesn't say anything about transgenderism, but it, but it is related to hormones like testosterone in the womb.

• 50:48Speaker 03

  Oh, interesting, Ryan.

• 50:51Ryan Broderick?

  Very interesting.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  Are your fingers indicating that you're low or high T?

• 50:55Ryan Broderick?

  I mean, I like to think that I'm a high T male. I, that's how I identify.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Is this, is this real, or is this like the skull size shit?

• 51:03Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, I mean, I don't think Google AI summary would lie to me.

• 51:09Ryan Broderick?

  So.

• 51:10Speaker 04

  Jeff, can you check in Grok? Can you see what?

• 51:13Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 51:15Ryan Broderick?

  Can you ask Grok Sexy Anime Girl if I'm a high T male? Um, alright, so yeah, just to spin through the last couple ones of these, um.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  I think he's actually doing.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  I'm listening, I'm listening.

• 51:25Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, yeah, no, while you ask Grok's Anime Girl about my, my testosterone levels, we are by all accounts right now in the middle of transvestigation hysteria. In fact, to the point where like, I, I personally kind of like, don't pay attention to it anymore, which maybe means that we're kind of like, coming off the, the end of it here, hopefully.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Because you personally stopped being interested?

• 51:47Ryan Broderick?

  Well, no, just because like, I'm staring at the internet all day and I'm actually seeing less and less of it. So I'm like, I'm thinking like, I'm, I'm thinking like, maybe this is the end. Um, no, yeah, I was super interested in it and then I got, I got bored, yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  Grok says, no, Ryan Broderick, the journalist, garbage day newsletter writer and panic world host, podcast host, is not regarded as a high T male.

• 52:11Ryan Broderick?

  You know what? Fair enough.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  From his ex post, he engages in looks maxing, gesture maxing, mocking memes in a detached, amused observer's style, rather than embodying them.

• 52:22Ryan Broderick?

  I, I love gesture maxing, that's true.

• 52:26Ryan Broderick?

  I love, I love, okay, wow, Grok, Grok got me, that rick.

• 52:32Ryan Broderick?

  Alright.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  Spends Grok and make this part of the show, I'm so sorry everyone.

• 52:36Ryan Broderick?

  Every episode end by asking Grok where I rank, uh, with all the cool men on the internet. Okay, so yeah, we're in peak, we're in peak transvestigation hysteria, basically in the last couple of years. 2024, we get the story of, uh, Iman Khalif winning a boxing match at the Paris Olympics, uh, when her opponent forfeits, a conspiracy theory starts spreading, thanks to people like J.K. Rowling, and Elon Musk, and J.D. Vance, that all claimed that she was trans, um, and that her opponent dropped out. Refused to fight because of it, the International Boxing Association, a Russian organization, which helps spread the rumors, says that they're suing Khalif and the IOC the next year. So like, they were so mad about being told that they were full of shit, they wanted to sue over it.

• 53:20Ryan Broderick?

  Then Khalif countersues them, along with also suing J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk for harassment. Since then, transvestigation just becomes like, I think, a thing you can do to somebody, but also I think it is getting diminishing returns. It's also like getting, another reason why I think it's kind of on the way out is because I'm seeing it used against the right more. So like, Kyle Rittenhouse has been transvestigated.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  What the fuck? Wait, is that, that's not, he looks like a baby in the left one. Like, someone put like a baby filter on him.

• 53:49Ryan Broderick?

  I think that's just like what he looks like. I think he is just like a fat baby.

• 53:53Speaker 03

  Did you see the video of Clavacular roasting him for marrying a woman with tattoos?

• 53:57Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, yeah. We should have you back on to do an episode about Clavacular, actually. Like, we should definitely be talking about that.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  I think it's probably generally bad to say that like, right-wing transvestigators look trans. That's just like, kind of a bad thing to say.

• 54:12Ryan Broderick?

  I agree.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  But a lot of them are really, really ugly.

• 54:18Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that's true. Both of those things are true, yeah.

• 54:24Ryan Broderick?

  You're walking the tightest of ropes right now, and I'm so excited for where this is headed.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  So like, it's like, when you say that, it's like you're saying trans people are ugly, trans people don't pass, by saying that those people look trans. I'm just saying, they're not safe from other transvestigators.

• 54:42Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, yes.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  That's all I mean.

• 54:44Ryan Broderick?

  I came across a post years ago, a couple of years ago, of a British person, again, who was...

• 54:53Speaker 02

  Can I, can I, can I say one more thing? I just also wanted to add, they're, they're creating a precedent to create a world where I would be safer than they would.

• 55:03Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, yes. The British Facebook user I came across years ago was transvestigating Andrew Tate, because Andrew Tate's bulge wasn't big enough in his Speedo.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Oh, I remember that one.

• 55:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Have you seen that one of my favorite videos of all time is Andrew Tate being like, would you rather fuck Megan Fox with a penis or Hulk Hogan with a pussy? He's like, you're not thinking about the question. And then he said, he endorses fucking Megan Fox with a penis over, he's saying it's gayer to fuck Hulk Hogan with a pussy than Megan Fox with a penis.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  It's one of my favorite videos.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  And if you disagree, then you're gay. And he's right.

• 55:38Ryan Broderick?

  Okay. Yeah, I'm thinking it through. Sure. Yeah, I agree. I think. But to Kitty's.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 55:46Ryan Broderick?

  But, but to Kitty's slightly more coherent point.

• 55:51Ryan Broderick?

  I, I agree that like transvestigation is a fire that they've started that they can't really put out anymore.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:58Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Cause now they're getting transvestigated and they're like, wait.

• 56:02Ryan Broderick?

  Yes. And so I'll spare you guys, but we have a whole list of like people who have been transvestigated recently, but it includes Sydney Sweeney, J K Rowling, Elon Musk, Donald Trump, J D Vance. Like it is, and I, you know, I'm sure a bit of this is like the dark woke stuff. Like I've seen people like claim that like Charlie Kirk was murdered because he didn't like, they didn't want him. The deep state killed Charlie Kirk because they didn't want it getting out that he was secretly trans. Like stuff like this, like there's a lot of that.

• 56:30Ryan Broderick?

  And so, yeah, it's like, you can't really control it once it's sort of left the barn, I think.

• 56:34Speaker 04

  Can I, uh, can I, can I just read this one quote on, on that point of, uh, where the conspiracy goes?

• 56:41Ryan Broderick?

  Transvest. I would prefer you to read it, yeah, because I don't really want to read it.

• 56:45Speaker 04

  This is from a them article. Transvestigators often believe that the so-called trans inverts are assigned handlers by whoever is controlling the alleged conspiracy, which as one may have guessed, is where the Kirk case degrades into full-blown antisemitism. Since taking her late husband's place as CEO of Turning Points, of Turning Point USA, Erica Kirk has been folded into larger far-right conspiracy, which alleges she is part of an international trafficking scheme orchestrated by the Israeli spy agency Mossad. This all just becomes soup that no one can, can escape.

• 57:17Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, it's just nonsense.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  The apparatus required to create something, these secret transitions, the fake pregnancies, the innocent.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  I just can't, I can't latch on to this one. It's just too fucking crazy. What, you're putting makeup on your stomach every day to look pregnant so people don't? If everyone was trans? Fuck, man. This one really, like, really fucks with me. Alright, sorry. Go ahead.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  You're used to being able to put yourself in the head of other people.

• 57:50Ryan Broderick?

  What's an example of a conspiracy that you're like, this one I get, but this one?

• 57:55Speaker 03

  Almost every single, name one. Almost every single one.

• 57:57Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, Flat Earth. Flat Earth.

• 57:59Speaker 03

  Flat Earth, yes. You look at the Earth, it looks flat.

• 58:03Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, alright, I shouldn't have used that one. Yeah, that one's like, pretty obvious, I guess.

• 58:08Speaker 04

  Wait, so lizard, lizard people, lizard people has Marco Hens.

• 58:11Ryan Broderick?

  I'm cool with lizard people too. I kinda get it, to be honest.

• 58:14Speaker 03

  I get it. It's like, yes, the, the things that elite people do are so strange, so bizarre. The secret satanic rituals, the weird occult symbolism.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  There's been a lot of elite people that are like, yeah, aliens visit Earth.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then, yes, and also the fact that they're literally real. And I've seen them.

• 58:32Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, no.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  But it's really easy, it's really easy for me to put myself in that mindset, even if I don't believe it to be true. It, it's very easy for me to just go there with stuff like aliens, lizard people, Flat Earth. With this, I just feel like, it almost makes me feel sort of nauseous with how deranged and confusing that it is. And why someone would even choose to, it's not, it's not like a fun, like believing in aliens and Onanaki is fun. Like, that's fun to do. Ghosts, believing in ghosts is fun. This isn't fun.

• 59:02Ryan Broderick?

  I would agree that ghosts are more fun than, than this.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  You're one of the reasons I think it comes from a lot of insecurity and projection, because you're definitely a hundred percent cis and like, not insecure in that way.

• 59:13Ryan Broderick?

  I, I also think that what you're getting at is, is, is important, which is that like, there isn't really like a, a clear end goal to believing in this, so that you have to tack on other stuff. Like, if you write a blog and you're just like, every celebrity is secretly trans and they're pretending to be a gender that they're not. And they're doing it like an elaborate, like, dress up every day to, to throw you off the trail. Well, the next question is like, why? Why are they doing that?

• 59:38Speaker 03

  There's no why.

• 59:40Ryan Broderick?

  And then when you fill in that why, it's something even crazier. So it's like, oh, it's because like they're they're part of some sort of like deep state humiliation ritual, or that they're they're they're gonna make everybody trans and destroy the birth rate, or they're being handled by Mossad or something like it, none of it makes any sense. That's sort of why I think like it has both stayed so prominent in the fringes and kind of maybe peaked like in popular culture already because like any normal person is gonna be like, why are they doing that? That doesn't make any sense to me.

• 1:00:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:00:15Speaker 04

  On that point, Ryan, you have talked a lot about like early days of BuzzFeed, covering weird internet stuff and being and having like editors in order, people saying like, this doesn't actually matter. These communities don't matter. And then like, fast forward and they're in charge of the country. Is this a niche in a community that you're just like, this is just too weird for this to ever gain actual capital?

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  And then we're gonna have, then Jungle Surfer is gonna be running for president in 2028?

• 1:00:46Ryan Broderick?

  Like, well, I see, I see what you mean. Yeah, no, well, yes and no. So it's like, I, I think that a lot of the accounts that are doing this sort of thing right now, many of them have moved on. Libs of TikTok doesn't really need to transvestigate anybody. They can, she can, but on the right, it is such a grave mortal sin to be trans just full stop that they could just say that person's trans, right?

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, why speculate if someone's trans if you can just incite violence against a trans person whenever?

• 1:01:19Ryan Broderick?

  Right, right. I, I think in a lot of ways, the sort of like conspiratorial fancy, like fanciful dimensions of this have kind of disappeared because you don't need them in a totalitarian state where trans people are so easy to brutalize with state violence or discrimination or all the rest, right? In a lot of ways, the stuff that we've been talking about in this episode, the stuff that happened in the lead up to the first and then second Trump era. Is like table setting for that culture to take place. So like, if you can make people paranoid and you can, you can get people to question what is the proper way a woman should look and a man should act and what they should be doing with their time.

• 1:02:01Ryan Broderick?

  You can create a world of gender essentialism that you can then enforce and you don't and you can kind of, you don't, you can kind of leave the conspiracy theories behind.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, Pam Bondi just called us gender terrorists.

• 1:02:11Ryan Broderick?

  Right, exactly. That's where this is heading. It's like, instead of saying like, oh, Rod Stewart is secretly a trans man. You can be like, well, trans people like legally should be classified as terrorists.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Ryan Broderick?

  This is what makes it so insidious because now the structure is in place where you can start to say, well, not only are trans people terrorists, but anyone who doesn't fit traditional gender roles is committing some kind of crime.

• 1:02:35Speaker 04

  So the only one safe here is Jeff. The only person who, who just.

• 1:02:38Ryan Broderick?

  No, dude, he told us he goes to a barber to get his, his mustache.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  Straighter than that.

• 1:02:44Ryan Broderick?

  He's first to go.

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  That's pretty crazy.

• 1:02:47Ryan Broderick?

  First they came for Jeff and I said nothing.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  For I shaved my beard myself.

• 1:02:56Ryan Broderick?

  But I mean, I think this does speak to sort of the larger feeling over the last five years or so that like, culture has become just way more reactionary and way more right wing. And we're seeing it with like, the way celebrities look and the way they act and the music that's on, you know, TikTok and the radio and all the rest. Like it's all part of this idea of like, if you deviate from what a woman should do and what a man should do, you're gonna be called trans or you're gonna be saying, or, or, or some other thing. And then they're gonna, they're gonna hurt you some way. Like it's all part of the larger project.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  I think a lot of it is also excuse to just perpetuate misogyny and even more because it's just being used against cis women like at an insane rate. Whether they're trans or not, it's just like, we think you're trans, so we're gonna be misogynistic to you, even though you're not like, it's just an excuse to, for, yeah.

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  Celebrities do be acting different too.

• 1:03:49Ryan Broderick?

  They do. They do.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  Did you see the new NBA Youngboy albums called Make America Slime Again?

• 1:03:57Ryan Broderick?

  I mean, unfortunately that title goes hard as hell, but.

• 1:04:01Ryan Broderick?

  No, but to what Kitty was saying, like, it's like the bath, no, no, but it's like, it's like the bathroom bills. Yeah, they're gonna hurt trans people. They're also gonna hurt any woman that doesn't look like a, like someone's idea of a woman.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  That shit hurts cis women way more on a way larger scale than trans women.

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. That's already happened a bunch of times where like some like, you know, lesbian with short hair is getting like thrown out of a woman's bathroom.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Like male cops, yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, what are you guys?

• 1:04:26Ryan Broderick?

  Maybe NBA Youngboy is right. Maybe we do need to make America slime again.

• 1:04:29Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:04:30Ryan Broderick?

  How are you, Ryan?

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  Well, what?

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Way to end the episode.

• 1:04:32Ryan Broderick?

  I want to thank you all for coming on the show. I want to apologize in advance to Grant for having to edit this and Courier for having to figure out how to put this on the internet. Um, and I want to thank you two for coming on because this was a great conversation. You're always a blast to talk to. If people want to follow you.

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  Oh, you guys are the-

• 1:04:52Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. Uh, and, and thank you for coming to, uh, for saying nice things about my-

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  It's a pleasure, really. It's a pleasure.

• 1:04:58Ryan Broderick?

  I feel very affirmed. Um, but if people want to follow you on the internet, where can they follow you?

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  Instagram's kind of home base right now.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, Free Country USA Pod, YouTube, Instagram. Uh, I'm Kitty Kimz.

• 1:05:09Speaker 03

  Spotify, we're on Spotify now.

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  We're on Spotify.

• 1:05:13Speaker 03

  We're looking into RSS technology.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Well, I'm pretty much at all this, all the pod things except for Apple.

• 1:05:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, Apple won't put us on.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  Put us on for some reason.

• 1:05:23Ryan Broderick?

  What? Why?

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:05:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Ryan Broderick?

  That's wild.

• 1:05:28Speaker 03

  It's too, our message, our message is too radical, too powerful.

• 1:05:34Ryan Broderick?

  That's, that's unbelievable. I've never heard of that before, actually.

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  You're, you're where they draw the line.

• 1:05:41Ryan Broderick?

  That's crazy.

• 1:05:41Speaker 04

  If we look at the top 10, if we looked right now at the top 10 podcasts, it's gonna be mostly right-wing assholes.

• 1:05:50Ryan Broderick?

  I've never heard of that. That's incredible. Um, but yeah, thank you guys for coming on. This is-

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  Thanks for having us.

• 1:05:55Speaker 03

  Okay, thank you.

• 1:05:57Ryan Broderick?

  Panic World is a production of Courier. It is written and produced by Grant Irving and hosted by me, Ryan Broderick. Josh Fialsted is our production coordinator and our amazing researcher is Adam Bumis. From Courier is Shane Verkest, who edits our video episodes, along with our producer, Devin Maroney, and National Managing Director and Executive Producer, Kevin Dreyfus. R.C. DeMezzo is their VP of Brand and Social. Charlotte Robinson is their Deputy Director of Brand and Social. Mary Ann Couga is their Director of Marketing. YouTube and Podcast Growth Marketer Samantha Hallows. And Tracy Kaplan is the Senior Vice President of Sales and Distribution. If you want to sponsor the show or give us products to sell, she's the

• 1:06:38Ryan Broderick?

  one to talk to. You can email her at [email protected]. Be sure to check out the Panic World YouTube channel, which you can find at youtube.com/atPanicWorldPod. And please, give us some nice ratings on podcast apps and leave a funny review. Lastly, here's my advice for you. Chill out and touch grass while you still can.

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  It's getting chilly outside. But you know what that means?

• 1:07:08Speaker 00

  It's time to cozy up with Panera Bread. Let's get toasty, cheesy. Oh, hello broccoli cheddar soup in a bread bowl. How about melty? Okay, Chipotle Chicken Ovo Melt. It's dipping bread and soupy goodness season. Oh yeah, we are so back. It's Panera season. Order now.