How Epstein weaponized the internet

Did Jeffrey Epstein destroy the internet? Ryan posits his theory, after not going totally insane (we think) reading through hundreds of Epstein files: Epstein was the Forrest Gump of the 21st century and there’s pretty much no major event this century that he didn’t have some sort of weird interaction with. Marcus Parks of Last Podcast on the Left joins us to indulge these conspiracies — and throw in a few more. Our guest Marcus Parks is the co-host of Last Podcast on the Left. Check them out wherever you listen to podcasts, and watch the video versions on Spotify and Netflix. You can also follow Marcus on Instagram @marcusparks and his music history podcast, No Dogs in Space, here. This episode is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Get your first three months for $45 by shopping plans at https://www.mintmobile.com/courier Want even more Panic World content? Like ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, and access to the Garbage Day Discord? Sign up for a membership at: https://www.patreon.com/PanicWorld. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Did y'all read that one that just came out?

• 0:31Ryan Broderick?

  I did, about how they removed and withheld stuff related to Trump.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. And it was, yeah, from the 2019 interviews and that they took her serious enough to interview her four times.

• 0:44Ryan Broderick?

  Jesus. Yeah, it never ends.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  It really doesn't.

• 0:47Ryan Broderick?

  So, let's kick things off. Marcus, I've seen, like, bad guy? You think he's like a bad guy?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say, on the scale of a bad guy, I'd say, pretty bad guy. Pretty bad guy. One might even say, greatest villain of the 21st century.

• 1:20Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I've come to call him like the Forrest Gump of the 21st century, for sure. Yeah, he seems like he's got his little fingers in every cookie jar imaginable. Um, yeah, he's a bad guy. For years now, we have known that some of the most powerful people in the world have basically been great friends, acquaintances, email correspondences with Jeffrey Epstein, and they likely knew that he was at least some kind of, as we said, bad guy. But thanks to the most recent release of files from the Justice Department, we now have a much bigger, greater, clearer picture of how bad a guy he was and how much people knew about it. And so today, we are going to be talking about that. We're going to be talking about Jeffrey Epstein.

• 2:05Ryan Broderick?

  I'm Ryan Roderick. With me is Grant Irving, who, to the best of my knowledge, has been marked safe. From the Epstein files and this is Panic Roll, the show about how the internet warps our mind, our culture and eventually reality, which is also exactly what Epstein did. And with us today is Marcus Parks from Last Podcast on the Left, your second appearance on the show. How are you doing today?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for having me back as well as I can, you know, as far as where we're at right now. It's a little overwhelming, you know, we're recording this on the day of, where it's supposed to be the State of the Union address and it's overwhelming. And Epstein has made it even more overwhelming.

• 2:43Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I definitely went through like a period of like profound psychic anguish over the course of like two weeks, reading, reading all these files, where I slowly sort of just like got used to the idea that like the Epstein network runs the world. Do you feel like you've gone through something similar?

• 3:00Speaker 01

  When the Epstein files came out, we were just about to start. We were just going to do one episode on the DuPont Foxcatcher murder. Remember Foxcatcher, you know, Steve Carell was in the movie. This guy, John DuPont, wanted to be a wrestler so bad that he built a team of wrestlers using his incredible wealth. And when his toys didn't behave the way he wanted them to, he murdered one of them. He murdered one of the wrestlers. But you know, what we like to do, especially when we're covering, you know, really wealthy people, and we've been doing it recently because we also just recently did a series on Alec Murdoch.

• 3:33Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Is to look at the history of these families, these powerful families in America. Because it really does show you like, because with Last Podcast, the question is always how? How did this happen? And to know the history of these families and to know how these people got to be the way they are, it's, it's edifying. But when we looked into the DuPonts and we looked into the history of that family, how much they control, how much they're responsible for, it was shocking and mind boggling. And then the next day, the Epstein files dropped. I was already in this space of like this one family is responsible for napalm,

• 4:13Speaker 01

  lead and gasoline, you know, like which, you know, led to quite a few other things, forever chemicals. You know, they developed the uranium for the atomic bombs, you know, like there's so many awful things. And then to see, you know, that not only is it still going on, but to see the world that people like the DuPonts helped to create, to see the fruits of that, because that's what Jeffrey Epstein is. He is the fruits of that. And, you know, these people who live entirely separate lives from us, they don't care about us. They, they, they don't even register us as human. I don't even know if they register each other as human.

• 4:51Ryan Broderick?

  No, there's some other thing. There's some other weird thing.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Some other weird, some other weird thing. The funny thing is, it finally got to the point where, like, you know, my brother, who leans conservative, I was on the, I was driving to work today, and I was telling him what this podcast was about. And even he is finally like, some people have too much money. It does something.

• 5:13Ryan Broderick?

  We did it, Joe.

• 5:16Ryan Broderick?

  No, I, yeah, I think there's a level of wealth you get to where you start to resemble like one of those purebred show dogs and you're like, not really a mammal anymore. You're like, you're some other thing, right? Yeah. And like, speaking of the history, which we're going to get into, it is astounding how far back this network that for simplicity's sake, we'll call the Epstein Network today goes, and how far reaching it is. But before we start, I wanted to share my sort of, I think this will help us not spin out into conspiracy tinfoil hat land, although that's pretty much where we're going to be the whole episode.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I can, I can speak about on all of that without a doubt.

• 5:52Ryan Broderick?

  So I wanted to share my sort of personal theory on like, what Epstein was trying to do and accomplish. And I'd love to hear sort of your thoughts on this. My overall kind of most charitable, like most reasonable take is that Epstein was a pedophile.

• 6:10Ryan Broderick?

  Who was running a very extensive elder abuse scheme that made him very valuable to three, if not four, different intelligence agencies.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:23Ryan Broderick?

  My general take is that like, he would convince old men to give him money and throw parties for them, full of children, and created so much blackmail material that, at the very least, the CIA, the MI6, the FSB in Russia, and Mossad in Israel were all like, "You work for us now."

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:43Ryan Broderick?

  That's my...

• 6:44Speaker 01

  You're our guy.

• 6:44Ryan Broderick?

  You're our guy. That's, that's, that's basically my take.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  You're on point. When, if you really want to boil it down to like brass tacks, I, I think you are on point, considering what we know right now.

• 6:57Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Because if you'll notice, all of our opinions on Epstein and what Epstein did and what his game was, they change. Every time, like, I, I've been hearing about Jeffrey Epstein since, I don't know, 2010? 2011?

• 7:12Ryan Broderick?

  Oh yeah, he was like a 4chan boogeyman for a long time.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Not just 4chan, I remember reading about the Lolita Express and the fucking New York Post, you know, riding the train, you know, like, that, this, this stuff was talked about. Of course, they were doing it to try to, you know, smear Bill Clinton, because that's, that was their agenda, but it's been talked about and bandied about for a very long time. We've been asked, like, you know, "Why don't you do an Epstein episode or an Epstein series?" It's because the story's not over yet. Like, we don't, we don't know. But like, we've, how, what's the percentage of emails that we've gotten a look at right now? Five?

• 7:47Ryan Broderick?

  1% of 1%. Yeah, I mean, like, it's the tip of the iceberg. And yeah, that's what we've said on this show as well, like, it is very hard to talk about these things. And, and just a little background on myself here for people who might not know, like, so because I spent, you know, so many years covering radicalization around the world as a reporter, I have mainly focused on that, which I did not even realize Epstein was a part of. Like, I didn't really clock, like, when I was working on those stories about the far right around the world, I didn't realize that, like, Epstein was connected.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  I can't imagine what this has done to your brain, like, because someone who has studied radicalization. I can't imagine what this is.

• 8:21Ryan Broderick?

  It has reactivated some like very insane like brain pathways that I believed I had defeated when I stopped watching the History Channel and getting high in college. And now they have totally reawoken. I believe ancient aliens are real. I believe that there is a hollow earth. I, yeah, this is, I mean, yeah, it is, it is crazy. And like, it's not like I'm like kicking myself being like, I can't believe I didn't re, like, if I had told my editor, like, "Hey, by the way, I think I'm actually covering a pedophile cabal that's orchestrating all this." Like, I would have been laughed out of the newsroom. So like, yeah. Um, but let's, let's, as you said, there are so many layers to this. So let's start peeling back the onion that is Jeffrey Epstein.

• 9:02Ryan Broderick?

  Good title for today's episode, actually. Uh, in the mid 70s, he's a teacher at the Dalton School and he's kicked out. Uh, it's, it's, it's kind of debated exactly why he was kicked out, but there are reports that he was a creep there, which makes me think, and I think this is important. I think this is really important because I think that there is a tendency, particularly in social media, for different users to be like, "Oh, he was a intelligence asset and he was doing pedophilia as a honeypot for intelligence at, uh, like networks." I believe it's the opposite, which is, think about how dangerous a pedophile would be when he inserted himself into the world of, of global espionage.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:37Ryan Broderick?

  I think we can say this, like, pedophiles are attracted to gray areas where there's little oversight, the Catholic Church, organized, uh, or like, uh, college sports, like, they, they worm them way, their way into these institutions and I, and post, post-Cold War espionage is, uh, about as, uh, uh, freewheeling and, and without oversight, as you could imagine, I would say.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  God, yes. Yeah. And not only that, but you know, but one of the things that we've learned is like, pedophiles like need organizations. They cannot exist in a vacuum. And whether it's an organization that they insert themselves into, or an organization that they make themselves,

• 10:12Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  they need it. Like, that, that's what they need to, to continue.

• 10:16Ryan Broderick?

  They hunt in packs.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  And Jeff Epstein's a, yeah, he's the, yeah, they do hunt in packs, absolutely.

• 10:20Ryan Broderick?

  And so, yeah, from this, we can basically say like, The guy is a pedophile and has been a pedophile since the 70s. Around 1976, he, this is where like his story is a little strange, but I kind of chalk it up to like the 70s and New York and all of that, but you know, who knows? He becomes a very low level employee at Bear Stearns. The story that I've heard is that he used connections at the Dalton School to get this job. And this is also like not that different, I think, from, from a lot of pedophiles. Like where they find one way to sort of escape the sinking ship and move to the next. Like this is a, a pattern, you know, we, we've seen this. So 1976, he's working at Bear Stearns. This is where he gets connected to people in academia. So you, this is where he meets people at MIT, Harvard, the finance world.

• 11:05Ryan Broderick?

  He starts like, kind of being a face man for a lot of high level accounts there, working his way up. I think this is also arguably probably where he's like, starts to encounter people who are connected to the CIA. Bear Stearns was sort of important in that world in the 70s. Uh, you know, Iran contra is, is, is on the horizon. Like this stuff is all kind of in the mix.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  At this point, like the, the espionage world, uh, especially, you know, the, the CIA is a fucking mess.

• 11:29Ryan Broderick?

  A mess.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  In the 60s.

• 11:31Ryan Broderick?

  Not like now. It's fine now.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fine now. I mean, did we really have back in the day, like, why didn't J Edgar Hoover ever go drink with the hockey team? Was he, why didn't, why wasn't he involved with the miracle on ice? I mean, that's what we really need in our intelligence.

• 11:49Ryan Broderick?

  My understanding is the CIA now is mainly producing Jack Ryan movies for Amazon Studios and pretending to be woke teenagers on Twitter. That is like largely what they're doing and that's fine. Like that seems fun for them. So, yeah.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  In the 60s and 70s, MKUltra was, I mean, they, they were doing, you can't even imagine all the things that they were doing.

• 12:08Ryan Broderick?

  Imagine how sad that must be to be like, I can't wait to like experiment on prisoners. And then they put you at a desk job where you're like, I'm a non-binary furry and I think having Tourette's is a form of hate speech. Like, like, yeah, like, yeah, that's, that's, that must suck. Um, so what's interesting about this is that like, at the time that Jeffrey Epstein is kind of working his way up this ladder, this sort of like elite financial ladder.

• 12:35Ryan Broderick?

  Robert Maxwell, a failed UK politician who's also a media mogul and kind of like at the time, the rival to Rupert Murdoch, he is kind of doing a similar thing in a similar way. He's been accused of being like a triple agent, a quadruple agent as well. The Daily Mail in 2026, who I know, Daily Mail, they're bad, I get, but at the same time, the Daily Mail is a conservative tabloid and they do serve a function sometimes in the greater information ecosystem. So sometimes, especially when it comes to taking down other rich people that a rich person has asked them to take down. So sometimes it is useful to read the Daily Mail. So they write, in 2026, "Security sources say Robert Maxwell was a Russian

• 13:18Ryan Broderick?

  asset from the 1970s when he worked to extradite Soviet Jews to Israel with the involvement of Israeli intelligence service Mossad. In return, they say Maxwell laundered Russian money into the West with the help of Epstein. They think the financier was introduced to Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, the New York financier. They think the financier was introduced to Maxwell and the KGB by an oil tycoon also in the pay of Russian intelligence. Probes into Robert Maxwell's business dealings have uncovered links not only to the KGB and Mossad, but also MI6." And can I ask possibly a silly question, but I think, I think it might be useful here. Marcus, how would you define like a spy in, in like post

• 13:59Ryan Broderick?

  Cold War or Cold War era? Like, because I think people kind of don't understand like what these intelligence agencies are really doing a lot of the time. Because like, they're largely just like organized crime networks that are trying to raise money for stuff they can't put on the books, right?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I mean, you, we do know that, you know, the government was involved with flooding the inner cities with crack and cocaine in order to fund black ops down in the global south. Like, we, we know that that should happen. You know, we, we know that these people, I mean, if you want to ask me like, what, what is a spy? I mean, it's, I would say my definition would be a person who takes orders that he's not allowed to tell his spouse about. You know, that, that they're not, like, they're not supposed to talk about it, you know, like they, not necessarily things that they are not proud of, but it's just things that would...

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Gum up the works if they got out, you know, it's things that we're not really supposed to be doing. You know, otherwise, you know, they'd be in the fucking recruitment ads.

• 15:13Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I was having drinks with a friend talking about Jeffrey Epstein, as you do now in 2026, a very common occurrence. And he was telling me that like, he actually had written a thesis in college on the role of espionage in the nuclear age as a form of data transfer to prevent nuclear apocalypse. And he was saying that like, a lot of people sort of tend to think of spies as these, you know, they're sitting on a park bench and they're passing, you know, information around and they're like breaking down doors and running drug friends or whatever. And it's like, they are doing that, but largely like these intelligence communities are effectively, they know that they're being spied on by each other. And oftentimes they're sort of in the same sort of dark murky gray areas as the other ones.

• 15:55Ryan Broderick?

  And, and, and I find it a fairly convincing argument that Epstein learns of this world through Robert Maxwell, learns sort of the, the fact that you can, you can easily play these agencies off of each other because they're all kind of aware of each other to a degree and can't really say anything or do anything. And, and so, yeah, I, I, I put that, I put that here just because I think we tend to think of these sides as being very defined. And it's like, nothing is defined in this world on purpose.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. I, I, I think with a spy, a spies, you know, I, I think the phrase that a spy probably comes back to again and again is it's a means to an end.

• 16:34Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, everything is a means to an end.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Everything is a means to an end, you know, like with even like MKUltra, there were guys that, you know, even though they did destroy countless mines, you know, there were guys that defended it, you know, and like you say, like, well, we thought that the Russians were working on mind control technology using LSD. So we had to do it too, you know, and, and they don't apologize for it at all. Like they, they still believe that it was a means to an end, just in case.

• 17:00Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that's right. And it's what makes someone a good candidate for espionage. That is, unless it bites them in the ass, which it did for Robert Maxwell and maybe for Epstein too. But in 1991, Maxwell was discovered dead in the Atlantic Ocean after he quote-unquote, "fell overboard" from his yacht. So...

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Happens a lot to me.

• 17:23Ryan Broderick?

  Who among us, who among us hasn't tried to play F... Who among us hasn't tried to extort MI6, the KGB and Mossad simultaneously and then suddenly fallen off their yacht? And then who among us hasn't had a daughter who then immediately becomes the fixer for the world's most prolific pedophile? Very common story for anyone working in the media. The American dream. It's how I'm hoping to die. Well, I was gonna say, the Robert Maxwell of the future will be a podcaster. That's absolutely true. In fact, we know this because it's getting ahead of ourselves. But at one point Epstein tells Steve Bannon that he would have way less oversight if he created a media company,

• 18:07Ryan Broderick?

  instead of creating what he wanted to create, which was a nonprofit. But we'll get there. So...

• 18:12Speaker 01

  So we're gonna get to the war.

• 18:13Ryan Broderick?

  We're gonna get to... Yeah, I mean, to me that is like, oh, okay, so the Robert Maxwell of the 21st century is Steve Bannon. 2003 is when we get our first kind of weird connection to all of the events that have shaped our lives of the 21st century, which is a 2003 email in which Ghislaine Maxwell is offered a spot on the 9/11 Shadow Commission. Our next point in the story comes in May 2006. Epstein receives his... Oh, yeah.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Real quick, what is the 9/11 Shadow Commission? Because I've heard this mention, but I don't know exactly what it is.

• 18:48Ryan Broderick?

  It sounds like a group of powerful wizards who wanted to do a second 9/11.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yes, the 9/11 Shadow Commission has convened. Sounds like a Venture Brothers fucking joke.

• 19:00Ryan Broderick?

  I am also...

• 19:03Ryan Broderick?

  A little unsure what they're referring to because like that's not a thing that exists. There obviously was a 9/11 commission report, which was declassified eventually and turned into a very good comic book. I have to recommend that. I don't know what a shadow commission 9/11 would mean, especially because we don't really use that term in the US. I don't know if like the Epstein network was like wanting to run their own 9/11 commission, but like I can't find any real hard details on like what that is.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, we say we don't know if it was, was it government appointed? Like is it, you know, was?

• 19:43Speaker 03

  Marcus, I'm sure it's innocuous. I don't think that there's any more questions that need to be asked there. I think that like, as we've been told, there's nothing to see here and we're all just making too big of a deal of what's in these emails. And so like, you know, whatever.

• 19:56Ryan Broderick?

  Look, all I know, some, somebody emailed Clay Maxwell in 2003 and asked her to be on a different 9/11 commission than the one we're aware of.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 20:08Ryan Broderick?

  That's not weird at all, actually. That's totally a normal thing. And fine. So we then get to the next important point in our story. May 2006, Epstein receives his first criminal charge related to child trafficking in Palm Beach. After the investigation is kicked, kicked up to the FBI, Epstein takes a plea deal. This is important because he takes out a lot of his money to pay for his court case. And he takes it from Bear Stearns, which then causes the Great Financial Recession.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 20:43Ryan Broderick?

  Marcus, wasn't there something about DuPont starting the Great Depression too for the A to B?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the DuPonts, well, the DuPonts were one of the many families, but they were one of the main families that were involved in stock manipulation in the 1920s. That led to the Great Depression because the DuPonts would manipulate stocks in order to make the stock for a certain company go down to near zero so they could pick it up for pennies on the dollar. And that of Of course, you know, that manipulation eventually led to the Great Depression. And, you know, FDR tried to prevent that from happening again with the Glass-Steagall Act, which was a great piece of legislation that we had in place until 1999, when Bill Clinton repealed it.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  And of course, the Glass-Steagall Act and the Glass-Steagall Act not being a part of legislation anymore also greatly contributed to the 2008 financial crisis.

• 21:40Ryan Broderick?

  So what you're saying is a known member of the Epstein network repealed the one thing stopping the global elites from crashing the financial markets again. I'm saying that with 100% historical accuracy. Yes. So let's like, here, every time something like this happens, let's not ask any questions about what that could mean. And let's just move on. Sure, sure. Let's just move on. So, uh, yeah, Epstein goes to jail. He gets probation and ignores that entirely and gets hit with dozens of lawsuits. Most of them anonymized as Jane Does.

• 22:21Ryan Broderick?

  And what was interesting about this court case is that there's a bunch of evidence from it that is included in the most recent DOJ drop. And you can see it, uh, they are basically like scanner copies of CD-ROMs that say MySpace on them. Jesus. Basically, I think it is fairly safe to say that like, I mean, Epstein wasn't the only pedophile on MySpace. By the end, I imagine it was all of them. And

• 22:47Speaker 01

  It's like the dead internet theory, except it's all pedophiles. It's just a, MySpace is just a bunch of pedophiles talking to each other.

• 22:53Ryan Broderick?

  It's all pedophiles all the way down. What is really interesting, and this is a lead that I cannot figure out an answer to. And so once again, I'm just going to drop it here and like, let it sit. In 2018, it was revealed that all data that was on MySpace was erased by accident in a data transfer to their new owner. And so, yeah, we'll never know what, uh, what was on there, uh, other than what the FBI already has.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  My god.

• 23:16Ryan Broderick?

  Anyways.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  If you turn this into a drinking game of every time that you shouldn't ask a question, you will be dead by the end of this episode.

• 23:23Ryan Broderick?

  Don't ask questions. Don't ask questions. So, uh, right. So anyways, he comes out of jail, 2008 to 2009. He's connected in the finance world, the science Ivy League world, and by all accounts, connected to various foreign governments. But now, he's gonna turn his attention to the internet. This is really where he starts to become like, what you would call like, online, in a real way. Uh, where he is very focused on making sure that Google and Wikipedia do not list him as a sex offender.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of emails are about that. Like, that's the incredible thing about Jeffrey. He understood the internet before any of us did. Like, he understood how it worked.

• 24:03Ryan Broderick?

  Do you think that? Do you think that?

• 24:05Speaker 01

  I think so. I, I, I think he understood the power of the internet, like, in as much as it gave him, in as much as Jeffrey Epstein understood anything, like, how does this benefit me? Like, how can I use this to further my interests? You know, to, which his interests were wealth and pedophilia. Uh, and he, and how to also cover that out. Like, he saw that it was a liability, but he also saw that it was a strength at the same time.

• 24:34Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, we should say here that, like, Jeffrey Epstein was a really dumb guy.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 24:38Ryan Broderick?

  Couldn't really write. I found a video in the files of him being shown how to right-click and save a file. He has a whole side quest where he tries to-

• 24:49Speaker 01

  You can't judge a fish by how well it can climb a tree.

• 24:53Ryan Broderick?

  You're right, man. You're right. I, what was interesting, though, is like, in this period of time, he gets asked about Silicon Valley, and he says, like, "That's not my world. I don't know anything about it." Which I think is important, because it does show that, like, like all pedophiles, like, he is a chameleon. He's like, sort of, learning on the, uh, you know, as he goes. But, yeah, in, in, in 2010, he's having a guy hack Wikipedia, and there's actually, like, extensive editor drama pages about him trying to get removed from the sex offender list-

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:20Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, on Wikipedia. And he's also paying for SEO scrubbing services. So he, like, wants his name removed from Google. I think you're right that he, like, understood the internet, but I think he understood it, like, in a very instinctual way.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:34Ryan Broderick?

  Once again, we're only seeing the tip of the tip of the iceberg. But, yeah, he, he starts to care about it when it starts to impact his ability to be a pedophile.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:42Ryan Broderick?

  And continue to be a sex predator. So he's also talking to some other people who would become very important in the history of the internet. And we're going to get to that right after a word from our sponsors Blizzard Entertainment, the maker of World of Warcraft.

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• 26:40Speaker 03

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• 27:50Ryan Broderick?

  Alright, we're back. Let's talk about Jeffrey Epstein's use of World of Warcraft.

• 27:56Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, right. God damn it.

• 28:00Ryan Broderick?

  So, uh, yeah, so Jeffrey Epstein 2010 makes an account on World of Warcraft. He's also, in this period of time, talking to Bobby Kotick, the CEO of Activision, about in-game purchases, and he seems to be very interested in, sort of like, in-game currency. I've also read a theory that he was probably using video games to talk to people without being monitored.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 28:20Ryan Broderick?

  Because back in those days, there was no real, you know...

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't people use Roblox today, like, kind of for the same purpose?

• 28:26Ryan Broderick?

  Yes. Yes. Yes. That is actually true. Yeah, absolutely true. Are you familiar, though, with, like, Steve Bannon's early, uh, job as a World of Warcraft gold farmer?

• 28:36Speaker 01

  I was aware of his, uh, failed screenplay, like, screenwriting career. That, like, isn't there, like, a Steve Bannon, like, Seinfeld spec script out there somewhere?

• 28:46Ryan Broderick?

  I thought he was attached to Seinfeld, actually, though. I thought he was an actual producer of Seinfeld.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  I mean, he might be, because it's probably, pretty likely, that, uh, Gary Seinfeld was, um, heavily involved with Epstein.

• 28:59Ryan Broderick?

  Hey, let's just not ask any questions about that and move on.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's not ask, like, what is it, a lemonade is? Uh, yeah.

• 29:06Ryan Broderick?

  Don't ask Google about Seinfeld and prom. That's right. Anyways, yeah, so Steve Bannon, Renaissance man, actual human cancer. He worked at a jo- he worked at a company called Internet Gaming Entertainment. He took over from a man named Brock Pierce, who used to be a child star. He was in the movie Mighty Ducks. Brock Pierce is a close, uh, correspondent with Jeffrey Epstein. And he ran IG before Bannon. And this company IG was basically experimenting with how do you convert real money into Warcraft gold, and then Warcraft gold back into real money?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Were they looking at this in a, like, a money laundering sense? Or were they just looking at this as, like, how do we make money on this?

• 29:49Ryan Broderick?

  Unclear.

• 29:51Ryan Broderick?

  The whole, uh, Marcus, what if both? Yeah.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, I can't help but ask questions. It's just, it's my nature to always ask questions.

• 30:02Ryan Broderick?

  What if both were the same? I sort of see this as like, basically people trying to figure out, they're trying to solve the same problem that eventually gets solved by cryptocurrency, which is, how do you send large sums of money around the world without anybody noticing?

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:18Ryan Broderick?

  And this will be kind of the, the main project of Jeffrey Epstein's last decade of his life, is trying to create a world where he can just send and receive money without anybody noticing. In 2011, Boris Nicolik, a venture capitalist, former advisor to Bill Gates, sends Epstein the Wikipedia page for Christopher Poole, the founder of 4chan, tells him that they should meet. They do meet, and Poole launches Pol, Politically Incorrect, the message board that would be home to Gamergate and the far right. The next day, moot, or Christopher Poole, has denied that Epstein had anything to do with it, and said he regrets ever meeting with him. And we have friends that comment, and I've kind of asked them, like, what's the reading on it?

• 31:00Ryan Broderick?

  And they think that moot was so stoned that he has actually no idea what happened. But it is weird timing.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Okay, all right, because this, for me, was sort of the skeleton key of Jeffrey Epstein's involvement in just the history of the 21st century, where we're at, like, how we got here. Him asking Christopher Poole to bring Pol back online, was, that showed me, like, okay, this guy understands. He knows, like, he has, there's a far-reaching plan here. He sees into the future in a way that none of the rest of us can see. Because who would have thought? I mean, I don't know if you guys were, were y'all on 4chan much, like, in the mid to late 2000s?

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Every day.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:49Ryan Broderick?

  You don't need to ask Ryan if he was on 4chan.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Ryan Broderick?

  We all know.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  I was, I was also on, I was on 4chan a ton. Like, it's like, I remember, yeah, when I first heard that, you know, Christopher Poole is involved with Epstein, the first thing, thought that I had was BRB soup. It's like, how do we go from BRB soup to this?

• 32:06Ryan Broderick?

  I can ask cheeseburger.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, all, all, all of that shit.

• 32:09Ryan Broderick?

  And I know the old texts.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  But you'd also remember when 4chan changed, you know, like that, that what they said at the time is like, don't expect to act like an idiot and be surprised when idiots show up.

• 32:20Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  But there was this definite sea change, this huge sea change. And of course, that's where Gamergay came from, that's where QAnon came from, all of that shit. Uh, and it was, I mean, wild to see in real time, very wild. Cause even like last podcast, we are, some of our very first, like, fans come, came from the X board. Um, from, you know, the paranormal.

• 32:41Ryan Broderick?

  I was a big fan of the X board, yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  I'm talking like first, like 20, 30 episodes, you know, where, where there, like, some of our first fans were there. And eventually, they, um, 4chan like totally turned on us, completely. Like, we didn't change.

• 32:56Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I'll say what we do know, and I'll say what we don't know, and I'll say what I think. I'm trying to be responsible about this and not say that I think Jeffrey Epstein did 9/11. Uh, and throughout, throughout today's episode. What we do know is that Epstein continued to use 4chan. There's a email from 2017 where he emails his girlfriend a link to a 4chan post that contains Five Night at Freddy's porn.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:21Ryan Broderick?

  We know that he's like aware of the site. We also know that he seemed to think that moot Christopher Poole was a hacker. That's how he's introduced to him. And I think people, I had, I had forgotten this, that like, there's that whole meme of like the hacker known as 4chan.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:40Ryan Broderick?

  4chan was home base for a lot of Occupy stuff. It was home base for Anonymous. It was home base for the anti-scientology protests. It was a place where you could conceivably go and find a hacker.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:52Ryan Broderick?

  And Epstein was, at this point in his life, very interested in cyber extortion. Cybercrime, hacking, he becomes like increasingly interested in Zero Day exploits. Which by the way, there's documentary Zero Day, you can find it on Apple TV. I also watched that for this and it's pretty good. It's all about how the NSA and Mossad accidentally released the Stuxnet virus. But anyways, which Jeffrey Epstein was very interested in. But once again, we're not going to ask any questions about that. Oh, and then the last thing we do know is that both Steve Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos have done interviews over the years talking about how their big publishing trick for Breitbart was to repackage 4chan chatter into articles that could then be shared on Facebook during

• 34:36Ryan Broderick?

  peak Facebook article era. So they could get lots and lots of views writing up like, "This 4chan user says that his girlfriend is trading sexual favors for positive video game reviews." You know, that kind of stuff.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it makes sense because 4chan were the master trolls of the internet. That's what they, that's what 4chan was. Like it was, that's where trolling was, you know, basically created. And they were the best. So of course, if you repackage that and feed it into grandma, grandma's going to get mad. Grandma's going to share it. She doesn't know that it just came from some angry fucker that's just doing it for the lols.

• 35:17Ryan Broderick?

  I'm so glad we finally got to answer the question of what would happen to society if everyone's grandmother read 4chan?

• 35:25Ryan Broderick?

  It's awesome that we live in this world now. Yeah, so here's where I'll say like what I think, which is, I don't think that Epstein probably had much to do with the architecture of 4chan. And I sort of tend to think that Gamergate would have happened as it happened even without Steve Bannon and Breitbart.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 35:46Ryan Broderick?

  But what I will say is that these men were very interested in weaponizing the internet, mobilizing internet users, figuring out how to make money, how to hijack conversation and discourse, and they will continue to experiment with this throughout the 2010s. And this is how Jeffrey Epstein starts to invade Silicon Valley.

• 36:12Ryan Broderick?

  In 2012, Epstein asks British investor Ian Osborne to set up a meeting between him, Peter Thiel, and a quote-unquote Zuckerberg, which I think we can, we can all agree who that might be. Yeah, I don't know, I'm not asking questions. Just not gonna ask questions, although there is, I mean, actually, we can say this because Epstein emailed himself a photo from a dinner, and he took like, he took like an old man, like, side of the table, like, me and all my friends photo, like, the way your dad would FaceTime you from a restaurant. And it's Thiel, Mark Zuckerberg, Joy Edo from the MIT Media Lab, Elon Musk, it's like all the guys. So, we have photo, we have photo evidence that they all went to dinner. And by the way, just to reiterate, Jeffrey Epstein, known pedophile at this point. Yeah. Like, convicted.

• 36:55Ryan Broderick?

  Has been arrested, convicted pedophile at this point. So, he starts to like worm his way around Silicon Valley, and then by 2013, we get a meeting between him and former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, that I think is sort of the smoking gun for the entire Epstein operation. Have you heard this? Do you know what I'm talking about? I have not. It's why I, I have been describing Epstein's deal as elder abuse, or a type of elder abuse. It's a conversation where Epstein basically tells Ehud Barak, the former Prime Minister of Israel, that he's gotta check out this Peter Thiel guy, who acts crazy and talks like a maniac, but he's got this new company called Palantir.

• 37:40Ryan Broderick?

  And then you hear Barak go, "Palantir." And he's like, "Palantir, it's the hot new thing." And he goes, "I can put you on the board, you'll make a million dollars a year, and you won't have to do anything. I can set up a meeting." And then, Barak like asks like, "Oh, is it like this financial firm, this old financial firm?" And then Epstein says, "No, it's the new, it's the new version." Ah. And I think that is like a very useful glimpse into what he's doing, which is going to old billionaires and old heads of state that he has had some kind of, you know, weird party lifestyle with and being like, "I'll sell you on a hot new tip."

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:18Ryan Broderick?

  "I got a hot new tip for you."

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Well, it's the finance world. I mean, that's just what it is. Like, at the end of the day, he's still a finance guy. Like, that's, you know, he still has his connections to, you know, Les Wexner, you know, out in good old Columbus, Ohio. You know?

• 38:31Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, we forgot, we didn't even mention the fact that Jeffrey Epstein at one point moved the ownership of the Limited Two to his holding company and was the owner of the Limited Two for a large chunk of the 2000s.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Dear God. Yeah. But yeah, I mean-

• 38:46Ryan Broderick?

  Where was that gonna go in this outline? You know?

• 38:50Ryan Broderick?

  Just another one of those things to bring up.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  He is, he's acting like any finance bro on the street, you know? He's, he's got a hot, he's got a hot tip and it all serves his interests. That's what he wants.

• 39:01Ryan Broderick?

  And his address book is, it's sort of this like perpetual motion machine, because it's like as he connects the worlds of academia and finance and politics together, he's almost like the server that all the traffic is moving through.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:15Ryan Broderick?

  Right? He's the node in the network. And it's like that joke where it's like, "I thought Elon Musk was a genius until he like describes what I do and I realize that he's an idiot." You know, it's like the engineer that's like, "When he talks about EVs, I thought he was a genius because I don't know anything about EVs."

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:30Ryan Broderick?

  And a lot of these emails, Epstein is a profoundly stupid person saying nonsense.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:36Ryan Broderick?

  Like, absolute nonsense. He has a whole misadventure where he tries to genetically engineer kosher pigs. Like, he, he was like, "We could, we could make pigs without hooves, so we could have kosher bacon." Um, like, just crazy bullshit, right? But you gotta figure, if, if he's talking to the guy at MIT- He can then turn to the guy, apparently in charge of Israel, and say, "This is what the guy at MIT is saying."

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:01Ryan Broderick?

  And the guy who's in charge of the country isn't gonna know that Epstein has no idea what he's talking about. They'll just know, "Well, he goes to dinner with him all the time. He must know..." Like, you can launder expertise really effectively that way, I think.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  I know. There really is so much power in being the guy.

• 40:20Ryan Broderick?

  He's the guy.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  He's the guy. He's my guy. You know, I got a guy for that. You know, and everyone's got a guy. And of course, if you're wealthy, like wealthy people got a guy for everything. You know, and for so many people, like Jeffrey Epstein was their guy. And there's enormous power in that. Because say anything you want about Jeffrey Epstein, confident, very confident man.

• 40:43Ryan Broderick?

  Very, very confident, yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Confident man. And that, I think, is where a lot of his power really lay, was in how confident he was in everything he did.

• 40:52Ryan Broderick?

  You could say he was mogging.

• 40:55Ryan Broderick?

  And Oramaxing, if you want.

• 40:58Ryan Broderick?

  So, he's making all these connections with Silicon Valley at the time. He's, you know, having dinner with the heads of every major social company. Also, medical researcher and author, Peter Attia, who just got kicked out of CBS News. He's also, like, very involved with the core software that creates Bitcoin, like, that runs Bitcoin. He's not sure if he actually likes Bitcoin, but he's talking about it along with everybody else who's obsessed with it in Silicon Valley at the time. But he is kind of like working his way through the ideology of Silicon Valley. In 2014, there's an email where a redacted correspondent suggests that he reads the work of the far-right Russian philosopher Alexander Dugin. Are you familiar with him?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  No. What do you mean, the Dark Enlightenment? Like, I actually don't have any idea what the fuck the Dark Enlightenment is. I haven't heard of this.

• 41:51Ryan Broderick?

  Curtis Yarvin, he's more of a basement troll than he is a philosopher. But he starts blogging about this. Steve Bannon is talking about this idea of replacing the machinery. Of democracy with the literal machinery of cryptocurrency and building a network state of like modern feudalism.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 42:13Ryan Broderick?

  And this idea that you could hollow out democracy and replace it with a new form of authoritarianism.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:19Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, and so Epstein starts to dabble.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  So it's just using the future to take us back to the past?

• 42:24Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, basically, what if no one had any rights and we were all debt slaves to some sort of like crypto billionaire, right?

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 42:31Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, that's a fun, yeah, imagine that. Imagine that. Imagine we all had thousands of dollars of debt and we were stuck under the thumb of an insane authoritarian.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 42:43Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, so in 2015, Epstein starts funding a French-language white nationalist YouTube channel. He offers to help Peter Thiel with his lawsuit against Gawker. He becomes very revved up about Brexit. He emails Peter Thiel in 2016, the summer of 2016. Brexit, just the beginning, return to tribalism, counter to globalism, amazing new alliances. You and I both agreed, zero interest rates were too high, and as I said in your office, finding things on their way to collapse was much easier than finding the next bargain, like the DuPont family, as you were saying earlier.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:20Ryan Broderick?

  That's what this was.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, to see it so naked and to see it said so bluntly, that we know that these wealthy people, like, because you see with DuPonts and, you know, and other families, like, they weren't the only one, of course, but, you know, we could see the consequences of their actions. We can see what happened because of the decisions they made. But with the Epstein files, I think what is really getting to us, you know, when you just look at this stuff, like, when you look at the stuff, like, stuff like this, that, like, this is the thing that has an effect on the lives of every single person listening right now. And... To hear it, you know, and it's not a TV show.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  It's not a movie, like to, to, to read the actual correspondence of these people that, you know, obviously have so much control over our lives, to see them planning collapse, to see them yearning for collapse, you know, not just planning for it, but trying to make it happen and truly not caring what happens to the rest of us or what happens to anybody else, you know, and, and in fact, kind of enjoying it, laughing about it, to see it laid out so nakedly, that's one of the things that was so disturbing to me. You don't truly believe it, that that's the way it happened. There's always something in the back of your head, it's like, well, maybe I'm not getting the whole story, maybe I don't, you know, maybe, you know, I'm confusing correlation

• 44:49Speaker 01

  for causation, but to see it like, no, it's, it's there, it's planned, they write emails about it and then say, and then say, ha ha.

• 44:59Ryan Broderick?

  It's unclear exactly like what, how involved they are, like are they doing this or are they reacting to it the, the way the rest of us would? But as far as we can tell, there wasn't really a master plan. It's more like they're just musing about various ways to shut down democracy, pressure the media, attack people financially, or even pressure them, you know, through PR and publicity. They're asking each other things like, you know, quote, "How do we get rid of the poor?" Which is something that Epstein sent to Bill Gates in an email at one point. And they're just nudging us towards geopolitical chaos. And we can see this sort of lack of organization and how they respond to Donald Trump becoming

• 45:43Ryan Broderick?

  president the first time. I mean, I sort of think of it as like, the dumbest guy in your crew is now president. So imagine if Tony Soprano found out that Paulie Walnuts became president.

• 46:01Ryan Broderick?

  On one hand, you'd be like, "That's awesome, Paulie Walnuts is president." And then you'd sit with it for a second and be like, "Oh, fuck, Paulie Walnuts is president."

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:10Ryan Broderick?

  And that's kind of my read on Epstein's initial reaction, based on the emails I've seen.

• 46:17Ryan Broderick?

  What actually sort of radicalizes or revs up Epstein's political project is something else that happens in 2017, which we're going to talk about right after a word from our sponsors, Activision.

• 46:33Ryan Broderick?

  They definitely didn't get convinced by Jeffrey Epstein to add loot boxes to Call of Duty.

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• 47:43Ryan Broderick?

  If you had to guess of like, all the social movements that have happened, all of the different things, the political events that have happened over the last 30 years, what do you think was the one that finally broke the camel's back with Jeffrey Epstein and sort of made him come out of the shadows to start messing with politics around the world?

• 48:03Speaker 01

  I'm guessing there was a hashtag involved. I'm guessing it's a hashtag "Me Too" is what brought Jeffrey Epstein out into the open.

• 48:14Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, it was #metoo. You can find emails about this, though, in the archive by searching Times Up, which is the Hollywood adjacent spinoff of metoo. We have also since learned that Jeffrey Epstein had a close, sort of, relationship with one of the heads of Times Up, because he was extremely interested in co-opting that movement.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Did the head of Times Up Google Jeffrey Epstein at all?

• 48:41Ryan Broderick?

  Let's name and shame, shall we?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 48:44Ryan Broderick?

  I'm gonna read this verbatim from page6.com, so that I don't have to worry about the legality of it. "Founding member of Times Up movement advised Jeffrey Epstein two years before launching the anti-sexual harassment organization." And that founding member was... Michelle Kidd. Michelle Kidd was a founding member of Times Up and advised and exchanged emails with Epstein, and a whole bunch of other Crisis PR people. He had a team of Crisis PR people that he would like to use for certain things. What really kind of changes the way he operates is the New York Times 2017 investigation into Harvey Weinstein. What's interesting is, the day after that is published,

• 49:24Ryan Broderick?

  Michael Wolff connects Jeffrey Epstein to Steve Bannon by sending him a Wired article about Steve Bannon's involvement with World of Warcraft gold farming. Like, basically saying, like, "Remember this?"

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, Mike.

• 49:38Ryan Broderick?

  Which I think is incredible. One, okay, there's a couple incredible things about this. One, it means that up until this point Jeffrey Epstein, like, did not know who Steve Bannon was.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Up until 2017, didn't know who Steve Bannon was?

• 49:52Ryan Broderick?

  Didn't know. Further evidence for the pile that reads Jeffrey Epstein is a big fucking idiot.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 49:58Ryan Broderick?

  And then also, the fact that he had to remind him with Warcraft.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, remember this guy that did the stupid fucking thing that we made fun of for a while? Yeah, him.

• 50:09Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 03

  They were on such parallel tracks, too, the entire time.

• 50:13Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, two ships in the night, you know?

• 50:16Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, it's really a P. Diddy and L. Degeneres situation. Once the two of them connect, you know?

• 50:26Speaker 01

  That's what everyone's saying.

• 50:27Ryan Broderick?

  Once the two of them start cooking, they're unstoppable.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Ellen, come on the show. Ellen, you're invited anytime you want. We'll do a dance.

• 50:39Ryan Broderick?

  Ellen, you can come put me in a cage anytime you want.

• 50:45Ryan Broderick?

  Wow, okay, so, um, right. Me Too erupts and Epstein is now like locked into shutting this down and he's basically hitting every lever he has access to. And then he starts a very long text message chain that goes multiple years with Steve Bannon and the only way I can describe it are two dumb bitches saying exactly to each other for four years straight. I mean, there is like no real evidence that any of, that either of them accomplished what they thought they were accomplishing. But at the same time, like you said earlier, what is important is the staggering amount of evidence that these people are talking about us the way we fear they might.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yes, very much.

• 51:25Ryan Broderick?

  And they do not care about us. They do not care about democracy. What it seems like they were doing in the simplest terms was building a far-right coalition of different politicians across the US, Europe and South America with the explicit purpose of shutting down cryptocurrency regulations so that they could use cryptocurrency to fund a culture war to kill Me Too.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, and it makes total sense that Epstein, that Me Too would be, you know, something that scares the shit out of Epstein because, you know, 2017, Donald Trump just became president, obviously has many, many, many, many, many ties to Donald Trump and he, he sees where that ladder is heading. Right? He sees that if this gets out of control, that it's going to take down Trump and if it takes down Trump, it's definitely going to take down Epstein. It's the whole thing's going to come out.

• 52:16Ryan Broderick?

  Right, right. And Bannon has a very useful way of thinking about this, which comes from this quote. This is sort of the general philosophy of everyone that they work with. "The real opposition is the media," Bannon says in 2018, "and the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit."

• 52:38Ryan Broderick?

  Which is fascinating also because it means that Epstein is beginning to change tactics. In the early 2010s, he's much more focused on obscuring himself via deletion. And so I am not really willing to go out on the ledge and say that Epstein created QAnon, or Epstein created Pizzagate, or people in the Epstein network created Pizzagate or QAnon. But I will say, there is an interesting sort of connection there between Epstein meeting up with Bannon, and Bannon's philosophy of flooding the zone with shit suddenly being applied to a conspiracy theory involving a global network of pedophiles.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. If Epstein wasn't involved with the creation, he was certainly an inspiration. I think what it does show is that they knew. Like Bannon knew. He knew what was going on. He knew what was happening. He didn't care. Like Bannon, Steve Bannon is one of the most cynical human beings to ever exist. His cynicism is off the charts. I mean, all these people, their cynicism is off the charts. I mean, of course, like seeing these people, like this is a new thing to see, like these people talking so openly about what they think of us. But you know, you've been in media for a long time. I'm sure in your time, you've come across one or two people who are

• 54:01Speaker 01

  regulars on Fox News, and you talk to them. They don't believe what they're saying. Like, you know they don't believe what they're saying. I'm sure you've had conversations with them where they say like, "No, of course I don't believe what I'm saying. It's my job." And like, they treat us kayfabe, you know?

• 54:16Ryan Broderick?

  Well, this is how Grant and I talk about our liberal audience. Like, we're secretly conservative. And I'm just like, "Oh, like, the fucking dogs ate from the slot bowl again. Like, eat up, piggies."

• 54:27Speaker 03

  As somebody left the comment on YouTube that really nailed it, "We're just two soy boys talking to some woman about something," and that's how we approach every episode.

• 54:35Ryan Broderick?

  That's right. We are soy boys for pay. And yes, in seriousness, I would say that there are true believers, but they are typically not seen at the highest echelons.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  No. They don't have their own media companies. They don't have one of the most popular podcasts in existence, like Steve Bannon does.

• 54:53Ryan Broderick?

  Some do. But I would say it's sort of like that graph of like, the guy freaking out, the simple caveman, the guy freaking out, and then like the dark magician. You know what I'm talking about?

• 55:05Ryan Broderick?

  So it's like, on one side, it's like, the guy, the simple caveman is like, "I, I care about conservative values, I'm, I'm right-wing." Yeah. Or I'm far-right, or whatever. And the guy freaking out is like, "Actually, this is a way that we can mobilize, like, working-class people to vote against our own interests." And then it's like, the ultra-wealthy on the other side, just being like, "I'm a far-right reactionary." Yeah. Like, it's, it's, it's just like, one of those. So Epstein writes during Bannon's 2018 tour around Europe. "Whole South America, Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, don't know why they are so dirty, given the fact that there are so many maids, soon to be the best investment of a lifetime." And he writes this as the Argentine economy is collapsing. Far-right libertarian Javier Millay, you know, the guy who looks like the Wolfman,

• 55:50Ryan Broderick?

  who dresses up like an anime cosplayer. He eventually gets elected president of Argentina with the full backing of Trump and the American conservatives five years later. And then Epstein finishes the same text, writing, "Venezuela, more oil reserves than Saudi." They were also, we, uh, Jar Bolsonaro in Brazil, uh, said that he never spoke to Steve Bannon. It would have been illegal in, in Brazil, actually, if he had. We now know from these text messages that they were in close communication Sure. with both Epstein, with both Bannon and possibly also Epstein. And then, uh, most, most frighteningly of all, in March 2019, Epstein texts Bannon now at the pyramid, referring to the Louvre Pyramid, with the entire government, "What are your plans?"

• 56:34Ryan Broderick?

  That's the Macron government, by the way. Jesus. Uh, they do have, though, extensive texts talking about their connections to Marine Le Pen in France, to Nigel Farage in the UK, to the AFD in Germany, to Matteo Salvini in La Liga, to the, uh, to Viktor Orban in Hungary. These guys, at the very least, knew all of these people. And they were willing to compromise democracy to help them get elected. In July 2018, Epstein tells Bannon that he was wrestling with how to get a team of hackers for Bannon, and wanted to use a zero-day exploit, there it is again, Mm-hmm. to target crypto wallets and voting booths.

• 57:11Ryan Broderick?

  So, all of this kind of craziness comes to an end in July 2019 when Epstein is hit with federal charges of sex trafficking and is arrested again. But right before that, he, I think, we've talked so much, I can't even keep track of what we've said. Hold on, Epstein did 9/11, Epstein did the great financial crisis, Epstein only limited to, oh, there's a Pokemon Ghost stop on Little St. James Island. Right, Epstein advised Steve Bannon to not create an nonprofit for his like far-right political adventures, but to instead create a media company. Yeah. Because they'd have far less scrutiny. What's really interesting to note here is

• 57:55Ryan Broderick?

  for all of their geopolitical dealing, Epstein was eventually arrested and died in prison. And that is largely thanks to public outrage. Public outrage that these guys could not suppress. And then, if you believe the liberal media, Epstein is found dead on August 10th, 2019. And of course, the final punchline to all of this, who tells the world about Epstein's death first? Where do people read about that first, Marcus? 4chan. That's right, baby. It all comes back. And so, I think we should end now immediately.

• 58:34Ryan Broderick?

  And not ask any questions about what that means for the world, for democracy. And like, and by the way, like, I didn't go like over every single thing that we could have put here because like, it gets really confusing and it's really complicated, but there are, there's evidence that Epstein had possibly connections to Jamal Khashoggi's murder, he's talking to people in Qatar, he's talking to people in Saudi Arabia. He's a real bon vivant of the horrors of the 21st century. I even went down a rabbit hole where it seemed like maybe there was some connection between him and the Las Vegas shooting.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I read that you wrote that he owned property right across the street from Mandalay Bay?

• 59:19Ryan Broderick?

  He wanted to buy property right across the street from Mandalay Bay and like that one gets really thorny. And like the other thing is like, there are a million sort of different side avenues that you're probably going to see on social media. Today for this episode, we've tried to only focus on what we can point to directly. Oh, also, we didn't use case files from the drop. Do you know about this?

• 59:40Speaker 03

  No.

• 59:42Ryan Broderick?

  So this is where a lot of the crazier stuff is surfacing on social media. So the files released by the DOJ are a bunch of evidence, a bunch of emails, a bunch of text messages, different kinds of electronic records, bank statements, but then there's also FBI case reports that are basically just anyone who wanted to call in and tell the FBI anything about Epstein was recorded.

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:00:03Ryan Broderick?

  And that's where you're getting a lot of the stuff that's like Epstein was the personal assistant of Putin and is now living in Tel Aviv and stuff. We can say though, that like he, he did email someone saying that he wanted to create a financial revolution that would help Russia. That is true.

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:00:21Ryan Broderick?

  But, but yeah, we've tried to keep today just as focused best we can on what we can look at and point to and not ask any questions about it.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  I'd love for you to just connect the dots for people. Why would Epstein, Silicon Valley and Steve Bannon all be real interested in crypto? Why, how does that serve all of their missions? And why would the proliferation of 4chan everywhere serve all of their interests? Cause I think that like. The thing I've been thinking about this is that like, as far as we know, so far, there isn't a layer of doom. It's the banality of mutual, mutual self-interest. And I'd love for you to put those strings to one another.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I don't know as much about crypto as I probably should, you know, I, I understand it on a very, on a very surface level, but you know, what, from what I understand, uh, you know, it does just allow you to hide, you know, where a source of money is coming from. If you don't want any record of your transaction, it's perfect for it. You know, and, and these people work under, you know, a system where they're doing a lot of illegal shit that is expensive. It's extraordinarily expensive to run a pedophile ring, Grant. It's so expensive.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  And

• 1:01:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. Can I see your, can I see your shadow tax returns about that, Marcus?

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  I mean, they need to pay for this stuff somehow, you know, so crypto being a part of it. And in cryptos, it's almost essential to, you know, the, the growth of, you know, the sort of world that they're trying to build. Because they are, they are trying to build a world. They're trying to build a world without accountability. They already live in a world that's mostly free from consequence. They started to feel a couple of consequences. Jeffrey Epstein felt a couple here and there, but for the most part, it just doesn't happen for them. As far as, you know, 4chan being a part of it, 4chan,

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  the proliferation of, I guess you would call like the 4chan vibe, the 4chan style, uh, it's chaos. That's, that's what 4chan was. It was just chaos. That was the whole point of it, uh, is that chaos is fun. And if you make the entire world chaos, if you, if you make everything chaos, as Bannon said, flooding the zone with shit, nobody can agree on anything. And if nobody can agree on anything, you know, nobody can investigate, nobody can look Into what it is that you're actually doing and what it is that you're actually up to. So I think these people work far better in a vacuum than they do in any sort of ordered world

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  or in any sort of like order system, you know, as far, far as like legal framework goes. You know, like they work great in organizations because they're able to manipulate those organizations. But if you don't have the chaos, people notice that you're manipulating those organizations. And chaos just makes manipulation that much easier.

• 1:03:39Ryan Broderick?

  We've talked about Bannon's infamous line about this strategy. But I should say that Epstein, years before Bannon, pretty much said the same thing in a more evil way. Here, let me read it. In 2016, after the WikiLeaks dump, Epstein wrote, "The question I have is imagine Assange releases fake emails that report to show really bad stuff, but that his team has crafted and they get out in the media. What a trick could be played."

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  I guess the, the, the question, if we're allowed to ask questions, uh, is, uh, are they behind the Podesta emails? Are they, are they behind Pizza Gate? Are they, are they the ones that put all of these, did they insert all of these codes in to this, to muddy the waters? I, I mean, hell, I remember when, when Pizza Gate hit, you know, we, the last podcast, we've been covering this stuff for a long time. Like we already, we kind of already knew the rumors that have been going on for so long about, you know, Satanism in the government, you know, which of course, it's not Satanism. It's just, you know, another way to make things weird. They love ways to make it weird and make it feel more evil and make it feel like they're, they're playing a game. They love the pageantry of everything.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  But when they started hitting, I remember thinking there was something off about it. You know, the, the sort of, the, the ways that people were interpreting it. And, and as Pizza Gate turned into QAnon, that's when I started to see like, oh, this is just every conspiracy mixed together. The, the, this is, you know, this is blood libel. The, this is shadow government. Yeah, it's all of them. We're all mixed together into one big soup and it was just more chaos. Like, there was never really that much of a narrative to QAnon. That was another reason why we, you know, people ask like, why haven't you ever done QAnon? It's like, because it's a fucking mess. Like, there's no, there's no story to QAnon.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  It's just, they're just making it up. You have to ask the question, is like, are, is, were they making it up as they go along? Or were they getting little pieces of information along the way, you know, to, that were muddling things up? You know, was Bannon flooding the zone with shit?

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  I can't believe that that is a real question that we all really, that we actually have to contend with.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my god. I mean, this whole thing, I've been studying conspiracies for decades now. Like, conspiracy theory was one of the things that, you know, last podcast kind of started with. And, you know, and we've covered a ton of them over the years, you know, like we, like, I, I even felt a little bashful because way back in the day, we, you know, had a couple of episodes called The Satanic Government, where, you know, we talked about like Michael Aquino being in the government and, you know, we talked about the Franklin cover-up, you know, which is really, you know, related to the, you know, Johnny Gosh and, you know, and when QAnon started, you know, really becoming popular, I felt a little embarrassed about those episodes.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  But I, I felt a little embarrassed that like-

• 1:06:41Ryan Broderick?

  I didn't feel embarrassed about your episodes. I felt embarrassed about my own coverage about it, to be honest. Yeah.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 1:06:45Speaker 03

  I felt embarrassed about Last Pod on the Left.

• 1:06:47Ryan Broderick?

  I, I, I refused to cover QAnon for a while.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:52Ryan Broderick?

  I was, I was actually like, this is fucking stupid and it's not real and it doesn't matter for a while, for probably too long, honestly.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I also was like, it's just not, it's just, you know, a bunch of, a mixture of a bunch, every conspiracy theory you put together, it's all a mess. There's no narrative here. But the thing is, is like, looking back now, the Franklin cover-up, like, I've kind of revisited it. I'm not embarrassed anymore. It seems like there could be something to it. Like, there, there could be something to, you know, these, you know, we now see, like, there are these rings. There are, there are these things out there, like, and we were fooled. Like, the, you know, whatever plan that they had, you know, it, we really are getting into, like, we're through the looking glass.

• 1:07:38Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  It's crazy, because you don't know- What reality is anymore. You don't know what to believe, you know, and I have felt crazy about it. And it also like, I saw my algorithm changing in real time on Instagram because I was starting to look at more Epstein posts. And I saw, and I can recognize this stuff because I've been studying it for so long. My algorithm, my feed started to turn into a conspiracy theorist feed. And the type of shit that I was getting was like, oh, I recognize this. I know what this is. This is, this is the real crazy shit. But everyone's being pushed in that direction. We're all being pushed into, you know, if you don't

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  like, if you don't study it, if you don't know, like, if you don't know that Alex Jones stole this whole act from a guy named Bill Cooper, you know, way back in the day, you know, like, if you don't know that, and you don't know how Alex Jones evolved over the years, you can be taken in by this stuff, you know, really, really fucking easily.

• 1:08:38Ryan Broderick?

  Alex Jones is actually Bill Hicks, though.

• 1:08:44Ryan Broderick?

  We all know that Bill Hicks faked his own death and became Alex Jones. Yeah, we all know. Yeah, we all know that. The frogs did it to him. I did want to stop you there for a second because we had, we had a question from a listener and a Patreon member named Lisa. And she writes, "At some point, Ryan, I would like to lay out what you think is the relationship between QAnon and the Epstein situation. Like, is it a total coincidence, or is QAnon a correct diagnosis inaccurately placed? Or was Epstein reverberating through the system in ways that set off people's alarms, but they didn't know why, and Q was the result? Or was QAnon a sort of way of talking about all this in public? Or is it just that every single thing Republicans do is ultimately misogyny? And misogyny has its most pure form in the abuse of young girls, so it's more

• 1:09:26Ryan Broderick?

  like parallel evolution?" I would really like to hear a breakdown of Ryan's thinking about this. And yeah, my answer, at least, is yes.

• 1:09:38Ryan Broderick?

  You got it. But I do think this connects to what we were talking about earlier, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Marcus, which is like, we have a guest come on sometimes, Katie Natopoulos, awful human being. She has this theory that sometimes, like, the conscious, unconscious, or whatever it is, kinda sees the future sometimes. And she got really fixated on, like, the appearance of things like shark attacks before a major disaster, or the killer clowns which predate, you know, the Trump presidency. Like, these weird moments that kind of tend to happen before. And there's plenty of them, I could go on and on.

• 1:10:21Ryan Broderick?

  And I do wonder if it's partly that, but I also think that the fact that 4chan plays such a weird role in all of this, points to at least, sort of, that people involved with the Epstein network,

• 1:10:38Ryan Broderick?

  I will say, had a vested interest in something like QAnon gaining popularity.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  Very much so.

• 1:10:43Ryan Broderick?

  That's probably as far as we can go without going off the deep end. If you think about Epstein meeting Bannon, and Bannon's core philosophy being, "I'm going to flood the zone with shit to make it impossible to know what's going on", and then suddenly, a man who was completely and totally incapable of even having a Wikipedia article list his public conviction on it, suddenly not having any issue, or any angry emails in his inbox, about this thing like, called QAnon, appearing, make me think that, at the very least, Epstein was totally fine with it, and had been convinced by that point that this was a good smokescreen for him.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  I think, at the very least, somebody was feeding information to somebody. Because there does need to be a kernel of truth, because if it is a smokescreen, there has to be a kernel of truth to it. Because we looked at QAnon for so many years, like, "This is fucking stupid, there's no way this is true, all these people are getting taken in", you know, "They're all being fooled, this is all just some, a way for politicians to keep doing what they've always done", you know, it's a useful idiot thing.

• 1:11:47Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  But, in order for it to be an actual smokescreen, he did have to... Let some information out. He did. He did have to let some people know like these are the things that we're doing. Who knows how he did that? Who knows how that was done? Like, I don't know if he was in direct contact with the guy. Like, I don't think he said, like, hi, I'm Jeffrey Epstein. Let me give the guy, you know, the guy behind QAnon some information. I don't think there was that. I think that he put the information out there and other people picked up on it. And there was, when people know shit isn't right, it comes out. Hypernormalization, all that. Like, you know, we're kind of in that right now, where it's like- Hell, yeah, buddy.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, hypernormalization. Like, if you've never seen it, it's fucking incredible. But we're there right now in America. Like, we were 100% there. Everybody knows there's something wrong. Everyone knows there's something off, but nobody can articulate it. And not only can nobody articulate it, it's hard to even talk about because there is no answer, really. And we're, I mean, there is an answer. It's tax the fucking wealthy. That would be a pretty good start, you know. But as far as like just the entire systemic problem that we've been dealing with for so many years, like, and it's like, that's the thing. It's not like we've been dealing since the 90s. We've been dealing with it since the fucking 1800s, you know, the 1700s. Like, we've been dealing with it since the

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  fucking, you know, the French Revolution. Like, these things go back centuries. And people like Jeffrey Epstein are the ones that want it to continue being the way that it's always been. But the difference now, in this moment, in history, that we've never had before, is we have the correspondence. We have the correspondence. We have the conversations. Right. We can see it. We can see it. Yeah, we can see it. And it is readily available to anybody on earth. Well, almost anybody, depending on what, how much your government lets through the internet. But it's still, it is available to many, many people. Now's the question, the fuck we gonna do about it? You know, that is the question I keep asking on last

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  podcast. What are we gonna do about it? What's the plan? It's not Gavin Newsom. What the fuck is it?

• 1:14:05Ryan Broderick?

  No, it's Kevin News.

• 1:14:10Speaker 03

  It's a good clapback.

• 1:14:11Ryan Broderick?

  My theory is that we are like way, way closer to a deeply unpredictable and possibly violent populist uprising than we think we are. Allah Occupy Wall Street.

• 1:14:26Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:14:27Ryan Broderick?

  Arab Spring. And it might not happen here, but the fact that Europe is still trudging along and dethroning princes and throwing heads of state in jail and all the rest of it. And the fact that the French government has now like revved up their investigation, the UK, Norway. I think it is very likely that this is a global powder keg ready to go off. And I would say that we should not think of it as being inherently liberal or progressive. Because there are plenty of far right reaction areas that are looking at these files as proof of a global Jewish pedophile conspiracy. I've seen it. For all the Fortune users that say, holy shit, we got duped.

• 1:15:11Ryan Broderick?

  There's double, triple the amount that are saying, oh my God, everything we've said was real.

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:18Ryan Broderick?

  And we are at a very unpredictable moment. I think we are not far off from some kind of politician in America running on a pedophile cabal platform that is indistinguishable from a QAnon candidate 10 years ago.

• 1:15:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Ryan Broderick?

  And everyone will look at them and say, well, they're real.

• 1:15:38Speaker 03

  I've been getting a lot of texts of people being like, so are the QAnon believers right? And I do think that there's a fundamental difference there where people get into conspiracies, not for answers, but because something is shitty in their life. And it is an escapist thing that they can believe.

• 1:16:00Speaker 03

  This explains why my life is not the way I wanted to. And if this was different, my life would be different. Which is very different from a actual invested interest in getting to the bottom of whatever this cabal is.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:16:13Speaker 03

  The people obsessed with getting to the bottom of Epstein, it's a, it's from a different place.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Very much so.

• 1:16:19Speaker 03

  Then like, I wanna play boomer, this boomer ARG.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that, cuz that's exactly what QAnon was. You know, you're like, it, it.

• 1:16:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Uh, it, it was a way for people to make themselves the hero in the story. Like, they could, they could participate, they could follow the drops, they could, you know, feel like they were a character in a story. It made their lives far, far more interesting than they actually were. And that's a different motivation from, you know, I think a lot of people with Epstein say, there's a systemic rot and we have to root it out. At every turn, like every fucking turn, that wherever he reached his tentacles, it must be rooted out and it must be destroyed.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  Totally. There's, might be some truth to QAnon. But that does not mean that the people who are into QAnon were ever right.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Speaker 03

  That, that's, that's a distinction.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, I, I agree with that. They, they, it's not that, it's, they happened to boost the signal of something that, uh, had some truth to it. But they were doing so for all the wrong reasons and they were doing it at the behest of the very people that they were trying to capture. Right? It, they were helping the people that they were trying to capture, like they were.

• 1:17:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  You know, like they, they, they were, they, yeah, they got fooled, they, they, they got tricked. And that's the thing is if we gotta, we just have to admit when we got tricked. You know, we have to admit, like, it's like, okay, yeah, I was wrong, that, that, like, I got, I got tricked, like, there's, we're humans. Humans get tricked all the time, you know, it, it, it just happens, we just have to fucking admit it.

• 1:18:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, just cuz I'm on my third AI girlfriend and, but I, but I think this one's real, you know, and she's just, uh, it's, you know, like, like, like, there's nothing to blame. I am excited to see what happens.

• 1:18:24Ryan Broderick?

  Marcus, I want to thank you for coming on today's show.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:18:27Ryan Broderick?

  This was extremely harrowing and I feel tired and sad. So, great. I had a great time.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a great time. Thanks for having me on.

• 1:18:39Speaker 03

  How does he, how is he the only one who does this where we feel worse at the end? He's like a power bottom.

• 1:18:44Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, every time you've come on the show, I've felt worse. Yeah, you have, you have mogged an Aura Max R show and thrown it back at me.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Ryan Broderick?

  If you want to follow you on-

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  It's usually your guests that leave feeling worse. Yeah.

• 1:18:57Ryan Broderick?

  It's true. That's the point of the show.

• 1:19:01Ryan Broderick?

  If you want to follow you online, where can they do that?

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  You can listen to last podcast on the, on the left, anywhere you get your podcasts. We're also available on Netflix now. You can watch us on Netflix if you got an account. You can follow me on Instagram at Marcus Parks. And also listen to my music history podcast, No Dogs in Space. We got a new season coming out real soon that I'm very excited about.

• 1:19:28Ryan Broderick?

  Panic World is a production of Courier. It is written and produced by Grant Irving and hosted by me, Ryan Broderick. Josh Fialsted is our production coordinator and our amazing researcher is Adam Bumis. From Courier is Shane Verkest, who edits our video episodes along with our producer, Devin Maroney, and National Managing Director and Executive Producer Kevin Dreyfus. R.C. DeMezzo is their VP of Brand and Social. Charlotte Robinson is their Deputy Director of Brand and Social. Mary Ann Couga is their Director of Marketing. YouTube and podcast growth marketer Samantha Hallows. And Tracy Kaplan is the Senior Vice President of Sales and Distribution. If you want to sponsor the show or give us products to sell, she's the one to talk to. You can email her at [email protected].

• 1:20:12Ryan Broderick?

  Be sure to check out the Panic World YouTube channel, which you can find at youtube.com slash at Panic World Pod. And please, give us some nice ratings on podcast apps and leave a funny review. Lastly, here's my advice for you. Chill out and touch grass while you still can.

• 1:20:31Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m.

• 1:20:41Speaker 00

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