Gifts with Strings Attached, Embarrassing Habits, & Protecting Your Children from the Digital Realm | ASK ME ANYTHING

Ryan Michler and Alan Placer tackle ten questions from men dealing with family, identity, fatherhood, marriage, pain, career, and personal responsibility. They discuss how to set boundaries when financial gifts come with strings attached, what to do when a teenage son is drawn toward extreme online communities, and how to separate identity from a sport or physical ability. They also explore recognizing your parents as imperfect human beings, building self-respect without external validation, navigating disagreement over having another child, and understanding the limits of financial provision in marriage. The episode closes with a spirited debate over what actually qualifies as a sport. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - The Great Sport Debate 07:03 - When a Financial Gift Comes With Strings 11:35 - Embarrassing Habits at 25 18:19 - Helping a Son in Extreme Online Spaces 28:05 - Chronic Pain: Strength or Stubbornness? 37:31 - Identity After a Physical Setback 44:41 - Don't Punish Your Child for Your Past 52:10 - Building Self-Respect Without Validation 59:05 - When Dad Stops Being a Hero 01:05:59 - When Husband and Wife Disagree About Another Child 01:15:17 - When Providing Hurts Your Marriage 01:22:31 - The Sport Debate Continues 01:26:18 - War Room Invitation Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Who am I? I'm honorable. I'm a man who tells the truth. I'm a man who can recognize things that are what they are and I don't, I feel like I'm courageous. Those are all things that can exist regardless of any existential circumstance. And once you start to get to those types of things that define you, and you're a chess player, or a painter, or a CFO, and a CPA, you do whatever and still meet the criteria of who you actually are. Alan, what's up, man? We are recording this on a Sunday evening. I was gonna say I delayed the episode, but the truth is, you delayed the episode because you were watching NASCAR and more interested in that than you were recording this podcast today.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's fair. That makes sense, and that most of the listeners would agree.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  About what? NASCAR? Or about that you, that they were waiting on you?

• 0:56Speaker 01

  The priorities. There is nothing in a man's world more important than racing cars.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  Subject to debate, and maybe we can debate. Well, it was funny because, well, you, you do race cars. You race RC cars. And I haven't probably raced an RC car for a very long time. Not to diminish it by any means, but I remember when you told me that, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. But I see what you and your crew and other people do. I'm like, okay, this is like a legitimate thing. And I think it's actually pretty cool.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have a blast doing it. You know, this is, you know, I'm a sponsored driver. I travel the Northeast US and, you know, the weekend long races. And it's a big deal to the, to the manufacturer sponsors, tire sponsors, that we show up, we, we run hard and, and show up as good representatives to their companies. But is it a sport? We debate it a lot. It's, it's a tough one.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  It's not, it's not a tough one. It's not a sport. It's not a tough one. Again, I'm not, there's a lot of things that I like, that I would not consider a sport. So I'm not even trying to be demeaning when I say that. But it's not a sport. But where do you land?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  I, I lean on, we have a problem with our English language. That's the problem. I mean, it's, you're competing for a win. To me, that makes it a sport. But

• 2:33Speaker 00

  Just competition? So what about chess? Would that be considered a sport?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  I think I would consider it a sport. The difference, I think, the bigger difference that we struggle with is, are you an athlete just because you do a sport?

• 2:48Speaker 00

  I think that's a good question. Yeah, that's a good question.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  We have some, some pretty hefty sized guys in the radio control racing world. And, you know, we don't, yeah, your heart rate gets up a little bit, but it's not the same thing.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Sure, of course.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And cornhole. What about cornhole?

• 3:06Speaker 00

  You would call, corn, no, darts is another one? Like, could you say it's physical in nature? Sure. I wouldn't call it a sport, though. So this is what it says here. Okay, so I just, I pulled, we're gonna get a lot of hate and a lot of agreement. It's gonna be interesting. But I pulled this up in Claude. I just wrote, what is the definition of a sport? And this is what it said. There's no single agreed definition, which is the problem, right? Just like you said. That's the first thing worth correcting. The question assumes one exists, one definition. Dictionary Sports Federations and the IOC, I'm not familiar with that acronym, all use different criteria, which is why arguments over whether chess,

• 3:49Speaker 00

  poker, esports count, never resolve. Says the most commonly cited definition from the International Sports Federation, requires an activity to have the following. Number one, an element of competition. You said that. Number two, no reliance on luck is the deciding factor. That's silly, because there's always an element of uncontrollable events.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Number, oh, this is interesting. No, not harmful to any living creature. So by that definition, hunting is not a sport, which

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Boxing's not a sport.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Care. Oh, yeah. Great point. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Number four, not reliant on equipment provided by a single supplier to keep it fair, accessible, and not predominantly a game, quote unquote, predominantly a game, or purely sedentary in the sense of no physical exertion, though this criterion is the most contested. Of course, because being on, behind a remote control for an RC car, you could say, my thumbs hurt, but there's no like real physical exertion. The same way that throwing darts at a board, although you are

• 5:07Speaker 00

  using some mechanics of physiology, probably doesn't require, that's why guys can do it drunk, because it doesn't require a whole lot of, you know, physical

• 5:16Speaker 01

  But the counterpoint is that the brain is a muscle, and it's working real hard at these things. We just can't see it working. What if our brain was in our bicep?

• 5:25Speaker 00

  You trying to convince me that RC racing is a sport. That's your brain working really hard to convince me.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, if the international committees can't figure it out, we're probably not gonna solve it on this call.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Guys, if you have some thoughts on what makes a sport, a sport, please let us know, because I don't think this argument will ever end. There's a lot of things that I really enjoy that are competitive. And I'm just trying to go through this. No luck is a deciding factor. Yeah, I'm trying to go through this list that I would just not consider a sport. But, you know, whatever. Do your thing, enjoy it, and who cares what people call it. If you like it, get after it. All right, brother. Well, with all that said, we just pissed everybody off that is listening in one way or the other. And now that everybody's all riled up, let's get to some questions and try to calm everybody down a little bit.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  All right. Well, we got at least 10 people that have to listen, because we're gonna answer their questions today. First one is gonna come from Tobias Kendrick. My father-in-law paid off

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Tobias.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Tobias. I was, I got the whole last one, everyone right. Yeah, I'm gonna, I agree with Tobias. Sport.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. All right. Keep going.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  My father-in-law paid off our mortgage as a gift three years ago without asking. And every family dinner since, it comes up in some sideways comment. I never agreed to this arrangement, but I also never said no loud enough. How does a man undo a financial dependency he let happen?

• 7:03Speaker 00

  Well, you did agree to it by giving him the financial information required for him to pay off the mortgage. So let's not be silly on that one. You definitely agreed to it. Now, did you agree to the covert contract? No, probably not. You didn't know it was gonna be brought up at every family outing, and it was gonna be held over your head. But you did agree for him to pay off your mortgage. So let's be real about that. Which I would too, by the way. But, you know, I think, I saw this one. I think what I would do at this point, I mean, you're a grown man, he's a grown man, is I would very gently pull him aside and say, hey, look, Dad, I think this is a father-in-law, but I don't know if you use Dad or his name, whatever. But hey, look, Dad, or Bill, or whatever.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  I just want to let you know, I really appreciate you helping us out with a mortgage. I know you're trying to take care of your daughter, and I know that we've had a relationship, and, and we're really grateful for what you did. But what I have a hard time with is that it feels to me like it's just being dangled over my head. And I don't really appreciate that, when you make comments like, and then you actually give him specific comments. I don't appreciate that. So if it was truly a gift, it would mean a lot to me and Stephanie, or, you know, your daughter, if you would refrain from making snide comments

• 8:27Speaker 00

  about paying off our mortgage, or, I'll go ahead and refinance the house and pay your money back. But that's where I'd like this to go. How do you feel about that?

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  That's what I would do.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  I like that, but I think for me, that would be step two. Has Tobias thanked him?

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Good point.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Maybe he's throwing this out there, because Tobias hasn't actually been as grateful as I assume a couple hundred thousand dollars of payoff on a house deserves. That's, you know, more than just a handshake. Maybe at the family dinner, stand up and toast him first. You know, thank you very much for giving us this gift. And, and, and if you do all that, and then the snide comments continue, yeah, then I would go in.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  I like that, Alan, because you know what's so cool about that? Like, I actually really like, I'm glad you said that, because I jumped to step number two. I agree with you. What I like about that is it diffuses all of the power to, not only are you thanking him, which is great, because you want to show gratitude, but it disarms him. Because now, if he comes to Thanksgiving dinner in the next, what is it, two, two months now? And he's like, well, I paid off their house. It's like, yeah, Dad, we, we know, like, he toasted you last month. We all, like, we're well aware of it. But that's actually kind of, that's good from two ways. It's good because it's good to be grateful. And it's good because it just takes all the power away. That's solid, Alan. It's actually really solid.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And then, look, if, if my method doesn't work, and then Ryan's doesn't work, just punch him in the mouth.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  I mean, that's the easiest thing to do, and just end the thing. Like, just put a, put an end to it once and for all. No, but I, but I do agree. I think, yeah, I think yours is step one, mine's step two. Step three is resort to physical violence. Fair enough.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Good. Awesome.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  No, I like that. Like, just thank him publicly, not just personally, but publicly. It's like, do a toast to Thanksgiving and say, hey, guys, we're so grateful that everybody's here at our house this, this year. We have this beautiful home, and part of it is, in large part, to the gracious support of Dad, and, you know, helping us secure the home. And I'm really grateful. I know she's really grateful. And so we're glad to have everybody here and honor the fact that we have this home that's paid off, and we get to enjoy it without stress. And we're so grateful. Thank you. I love that. That's awesome.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. There's no comeback to that.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  No. No.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  All right. So Wes Alderman. You can't mispronounce Wes. I like that. Quick hit. What's a habit you had at 25 that you're embarrassed a man's man ever did?

• 11:31Speaker 00

  It's like a really covert way to say, how big of a screw up am I at 25 years old? Well, I drank a lot when I was 25. Eh, no, not 25, 20 for sure. 25, I got sober. I was sober by then.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had to think on this one a while.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  I mean, all the usual vices, like, I don't, I, I kind of don't understand the context of the question because we all have bad habits and we all know what they are, right? So, and I still have them, you know, whether it's impatience, intolerance, black and white thinking, laziness, slothfulness, gluttony. I mean, we all know what they are and we don't ever totally escape those things. And then there's vices, right? Whether it's pornography or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, womanizing, gambling.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  I mean, it's all this, it's all the same things. But yeah, for me, I, you know, I really put away drinking for about 20 years until I got wrapped but wrapped back up in it again, and that became a problem. That, that to me isn't some, there's two things that come to mind. One, for me personally, and then one I know a lot of men deal with. So substance abuse, whether it's drugs or alcohol is a big things, a big thing a lot of guys deal with. And I would say that is not masculine behavior. Although, let me, let me back up, just to use the verbiage I've used in the past. It's not manly behavior.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  A lot of men, men are more prone to alcohol abuse, for example, than their, than their female counterparts. So we would generally associate it that with a masculine behavior. But it's not manly to sedate yourself from reality. And I would argue the same thing is true about pornography. It's not manly to watch another man have sex with a woman, whether it's in person or through pixels. That's, that's being a cuck. So that's not manly behavior, isn't masculine. Again, we have a greater propensity for pornography usage, sexual violence even.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  So you could argue that our masculine biology makes us more prone to abuse in that way. But manly, no, it's not manly to watch another dude have sex with a woman. You should be doing that with a woman that you're committed to and honoring and exclusive with.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  That's right. That brings me into my issues. I had a mullet. Here's one. So I also had a, I had a bald spot at the same time.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  Oh, you had a skull it. You didn't have a mullet. You had a skull it.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Skull it, yes, yes.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Here's a hard one. This is the first time I'm ever publicly admitting it. I was a fan of Lo.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  What is that? I don't even know that. Fan of Lo? What is that?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  A Barry Manilow fan.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Oh, that predates me a little, Alan, so.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a problem.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yep. And the only other thing I could think of.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  At least you weren't a Swifty or anything, so, or a Cowboys fan, so you're good there.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Neither, neither.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't know, it's embarrassing. I really loved driving the ambulance or fire truck code three, like.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  What's code three?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Lights and sirens, balls to the walls, get the hell out of the way.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Without an emergency?

• 14:57Speaker 01

  No, no, with an emergency.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, okay, okay.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I just got such a charge out of that. You know, that goes back to the NASCAR thing. I get to go fast.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  No, I don't.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  But it's not.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  No, that's not, that's not embarrassing, like.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  No, that's all I got.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  I mean, I know, I know soldiers who, and firefighters and police officers who, and I know you, you're, you're a former firefighter. I almost said police officer, firefighter. I know.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  No, I, I don't think it's, it's embarrassing to, to chase adrenaline, to chase the dopamine. That's what we do. You just gotta do it healthily. But you being in an ambulance, turning the sirens on and rushing to go serve somebody is, and, and getting it, this is kind of an interesting thing that people think. I've, I've noticed this trend where, and, and I'll tell you, part of the reason this trend exists is because if you look at studies, upwards of 70% of individuals are dissatisfied with their job. And because 70% of people are dissatisfied, it's probably even higher now, dissatisfied with their job, they believe that if they see somebody who actually enjoys their job,

• 16:12Speaker 00

  that they must be doing something immoral. I get that all the time. People will say to me, oh, I have to pay you to be involved in your programs? I'm like, yeah, this is a business. It's a movement, but it's a business too. Like, oh, well, I just thought you were doing this thing out of the goodness of your heart. And then I usually come back and say, well, what do you do for work? Like, well, I'm an engineer or I'm an architect. It's like, well, cool, like, so you like beautiful buildings? You like structurally sound and safe buildings? You want to keep people safe in earthquakes? You want to present beauty to your community and to your state? Well, yeah, yeah, I love all that stuff. It's like, well, I can't, I can't believe you wouldn't just do that

• 16:55Speaker 00

  out of the goodness of your heart. They're like, well, I have to put food on the table. Right? Dummy. Why is it that we have, and I, I know why, I'm asking this rhetorically, separated the idea between enjoying what you do and making a great living doing it? I don't think those two ideas are at odds with each other and I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think you can have both, but it's up to you to find it and develop it.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  You should love what you're doing. You do it eight hours a day, if not more.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  If you loved it, you'd probably do it more. I mean, here I am, just like you, Alan, at seven o'clock for you on Sunday night. It's five o'clock. I can hear my kids upstairs. Spent plenty of time with them this weekend, so I felt safe and comfortable carving out an hour out of my day to do this. But here I am on a Sunday night, my boss didn't tell me I had to clock in and check in and punch my time card or, or, or call in for PTO to do this. No, I just, what I like to do.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Well, let's, let's, let's run with that and help one more person. We're gonna help Preston Lechance.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  I found out my 16-year-old son has been posting in some pretty extreme online spaces. Not illegal, but angry, isolating stuff about women and society. I don't want to overreact and push him further underground, but I don't want to say anything either. What's the actual first move here?

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Well, the first move is acknowledgement. I mean, this is, this is the reality of any situation you're trying to improve is you have to acknowledge that there's a problem. Whether we're talking about AA or some underlying issues in a relationship with your wife, or in this case with your son, the, the first step is to acknowledge that there's a problem here. And I have not dealt with this, but I think this is becoming increasingly common. I have three boys and I have a girl as well. My two oldest boys are 18 and 15 years old, so right around the age of, of this guy's son. We live in a predominantly conservative area, which is a good thing.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  It's a, it's a beautiful blessing because raising them in a liberal area would be horrific. Even if me and everybody close to them are trying to do the right thing, it's going to be hard to combat. But I, I think the first thing you need to do is just sit down with your son and say, hey bud, like, I, I, I know you're posting these threads. I know you're making comments here. I know, and by the way, I also know you're jaded. And I think if I were in your shoes, I might feel a lot of the same way that you are.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  I might feel attacked. I might feel like women are the enemy. I might feel like the government is out to get us. I might feel like, fill in the blank with whatever you think is going on, because that makes you relatable. And whatever your son is dealing with right now, I would argue that there's a tinge of truth to it. That's what I found about most deceit and most lies, is they're not blatantly false because if they were, everybody would just see right through it. It's the wolf in sheep's clothing idea. The wolf doesn't come in as the wolf. The wolf comes in in sheep's clothing. Because if it just came in as a wolf, everything would scatter and there wouldn't, you know, it, it'd be fine.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  But it comes in deceptively, manipulation, inch by inch, just give a little. And so there's gotta be some element of truth to every lie, otherwise we would all see right through it. And I think it's okay to say, hey bud, if I was being raised in 2026 at 16 years old, I would actually feel very much the same way that you do right now. Why don't you tell me what's going on? How are you feeling about women? How are you feeling about the government? How are you feeling about taxes? How are you feeling about your job prospects? How are you feeling about raising a family? And I'm not talking about putting the light on him and interrogating him. I'm saying like genuinely ask him, how are you feeling about these things?

• 21:09Speaker 00

  And I've found that the more that I can come in with a line of curiosity and inquisitiveness and less interrogation, the more receptive the people I'm trying to influence, and that's what we're trying to do, the more receptive the people I'm trying to influence are.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  But if you just come in guns ablazin', don't do this, don't do that, you're wrong. Oh, you're gonna go down this bad path. Oh, I'd, as a 16-year-old kid, hell, as a 45-year-old man, I would tune out of that.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  So come out at it with a little grace, put yourself in his shoes, ask some good questions, not to get an answer so you can then start talking, but like actually try to figure out his perspective and ask yourself internally.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Does the claim he's making have some validity? And I would argue that it probably does. If you're really willing to look at it correctly.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that, Ryan. My son's 27 and around that age of 16, I went through a similar thing. And what you said is spot on, just have the conversation with them. Something we ought to remember at 16, we're not telling them what to do anymore. We're an advisor at that age. They've outgrown most of the tell them what to do. So when I was going through this with my son, one thing that also dawned on me is 16 years of being with me led him to this place where he had these thoughts.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  My son was degrading to women and was developing more extreme political ideologies. And they're not the way I think or feel. I don't say, hey, you should hate on women or anything. But the life that I had been giving him led him to this. So one thing I found very helpful was to get him in front of other mentors that could help him. His karate instructor was a key, key player in his life to help him. He did mixed martial arts and really helped him refrain and refocus on himself and not

• 23:30Speaker 01

  all the problems of the outside world. And you know, these kinds of activities and sports for teenagers is huge just because it helps you focus on the things that you should be focused on at this age and stop you from, you know, you leave a 16 year old in an empty room to just sit there and think, this is what COVID killed a generation because they had too much time to just think. And at that age, you start doubting yourself and you start doubting the world because you should be questioning the world at that age. You're, you know, in the animal kingdom, you're getting ready to take over the world at that age.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  So they need influence and it's not all going to come from the dad at this point. It needs to come from the outsiders, the coaches, the teachers, even the friends. They're going to get a lot of influence from the friends. So you do what you can to get them in front of the right group of friends and then hope.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, hope, like at first I was like, yeah, that's really all you can do.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  They don't come with instruction manuals.

• 24:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that's really all you can do. Once they're out on their own, I mean, you could influence and try to pour into them the way you're doing. I remember my oldest son, he's got this incredible strength and fitness coach who he doesn't work with anymore. He did when we were in Maine. His name was Sean Moore. And I think the world of Sean. But frankly, when Sean came into my son's life as his football coach, and then eventually his strength and conditioning coach, I got so sick and tired of hearing about, Coach Moore this, Coach Moore that, Coach Moore, Coach Moore, Coach Moore. I'm like, who is this guy? Like, what does he know?

• 25:24Speaker 00

  And in a stroke of divine intervention or just clarity, I realized, oh, wait, Coach Moore is actually a good dude. He actually cares about these young men. He actually has a set of moral principles. He's actually trying to do the right thing and teach these young boys how to lift and get physically and mentally strong. And when I realized that, I thought to myself, well, he's not the enemy. Coach Moore is an ally of mine.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  He's helping raise my son. He's pouring into my son in a meaningful and significant way. And here I am when Brecken talks about Coach Moore rolling my eyes, undermining the relationship that he has with somebody who I feel like is a good moral influence on my son.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  Why would I do that? Because it's ego. I mean, that's what it is. It's like, well, I can tell you all the things Coach Moore can. But the reality is even if I could, which is not true, but even if I could, sometimes we need to hear things from different people. And sometimes you as a father are so close to your kids that they don't see you as Superman. Like my kids know, I got impatient with my kids today and all of my, my, my three boys, they all saw it. They all saw it. They all watched it. They all saw it.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  And I just pulled myself off the mantle of superhero in their eyes, not so much anymore because they're older. But they don't see that from other people. And so they see the good, the bad and the ugly with me, but sometimes they don't see with the other people, which is good. So Coach Moore would say things and like, dude, I've been telling you that for three years. And I was, yeah, but, but he said it like this. And I'm like, okay, whatever. And I was so threatened initially until I realized, get over yourself. It's not about you. It's about the betterment of your son. And that's why I love the advice that you gave. Get them around good men and let good men encourage, foster, support good men pouring into these boys. We need it now more than ever.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, excellent. Do it. I wish we could get feedback from these guys. They could always leave it in the YouTube channel.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Let's see, we got Ellis Marchetti. Short one. At what point does toughing it out through chronic pain just become stubbornness dressed up as strength?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  We both have chronic pain.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, some of it's just residual from bad decisions and some of it's just getting old, but I think the difference is purpose, right? So if I get off this podcast with you, Alan, and I walk over to this wall right here and I just bang my head repeatedly into the wall for the next half hour when we get done, I think all of us would agree that would be painful. We'd all experience pain.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  But there's no purpose to that. Like there's, there's literally no positive benefit to that for me. But if that wall is a wall that I want to tear down because I'm building out my podcast studio and I take a sledgehammer and methodically and meticulously go to work on taking that sledgehammer to the wall to tear it down so I can build out my podcast studio, it's safe to say that I'll experience some soreness, some muscle soreness and be out of breath. And you know, maybe that I hit a stud the wrong way and the sledgehammer bounces back and it hurts my elbow or my fingers or my shoulder.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  I think we would all agree that there's purpose to the suffering and that's, might be a silly example, but that's the difference. If you are proverbially banging your head against the wall without any direction and a purpose, pain doesn't mean anything. We, the problem with self-help in modern times is that we just have learned to associate, whether or not it's valid or not, learn to associate pain with progress. I can do a lot of things that are painful that aren't progressing me in the right direction. And so I think what you really need to do, and this is something that we did in the

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Iron Council, Alan, what, a week, week and a half ago, is we spent an entire week on not goals, not objectives, not the things that we want to accomplish, but vision, purpose, mission, direction. What is it that you want out of your life? And only then, once you've started to identify and figure out what that is, only then do we reverse engineer the process because that gives meaning to our suffering. And if there's no meaning to your suffering, probably don't do it. I went and ran on Saturday, I went and ran eight miles to support a friend who was running an eight mile trail run race that I couldn't happen to attend, but I did eight miles here locally.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  It was painful. I got to mile six and my hips were hurting and I was stiff legged and it was uncomfortable and I'm sore today.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  That's painful, but it was for a purpose. It made me healthier, but it was also in support and solidarity with a friend who I care about and I want that person to win. So I did it to support them.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  I can suffer through the pain if there's meaning behind it. But if there isn't meaning, then you're just banging your head against the wall, literally or figuratively.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I read this question entirely differently than you did.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  I was thinking, I got stuck on the term chronic pain. So I'm thinking, you know, the guy that's got back pain that's going on for 20 years or, you know, I have wrist pain from bad surgeries and all.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  Wait, read it again. Read it again. Hold on, Alan, like.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  No, but your answer is really helpful for people too. And it may be it. So at what point does toughing it out through chronic pain just become stubbornness dressed up as strength?

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  So chronic pain to me means long-term banging your head on a wall would be acute pain.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Well, brain damage is chronic.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  It was useful.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  No, I mean, that's a good point. I've got some ideas on what you just said, but, but go, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, well, I don't do pain well. I do not like being in pain. And thanks to the world of modern medicine, we don't always have to be in pain. So for me, I will do everything I can not to be in chronic pain, short of drugs that are going to affect my performance. You know, you can't live your life on oxycontin and things like that. So look, it's not, you know, you don't have to be manly and tough out pain that you could otherwise go see a doctor and get cortisone shots or laser surgery or something to correct. But like for my wrist, I've exhausted all current known practices of medicine for it

• 32:45Speaker 01

  and it still hurts every single day and it will probably forever. That point, I just have to man up, tough it out, stop complaining to my wife about it. She don't want to hear it anymore. I think that's the, to me, that's the drawing line is when you don't, when you've exhausted all your options. Ryan, you have this look on your face like, no, every man should be in a little bit of pain.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  No, I don't, I don't want to be in pain. I mean, it's the, it's the condition of, of man to be in pain.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Like my, my back hurts a little right now, but also like I have the luxury of not ever really having to do something catastrophic. So it's really easy for me to say, before I had the injury, I ruptured my pectoral tendon. Before I had that injury, I used to quite frankly, look down on and mock people who are dealing with chronic persisting problems. And then I had that problem like, oh, yeah, that's a real thing. I've been blessed, knock on wood. I've been blessed and fortunate not to have to deal with any of that. Um, I think it is the condition of men just to be in some degree of pain. And I also believe that

• 33:58Speaker 00

  there, there is a subjective scale of pain, or excuse me, an objective scale of pain, but I think pain is also objective based on our biological makeup. Um, there's genetics actually that define how tolerant someone is to pain, believe it or not. Uh, and then there's also the mental component of it. It's like some people are just more capable mentally of dealing with greater hardship. And it might be that they went through greater hardship than, than those who haven't, but some people are just more capable of it. But I would argue this, here's what I'd argue. Alan, you brought up a great point, your wrist. I'm not gonna, I don't know what it's like to have a wrist that hurts chronically like you're talking about. So who am I to say, well, just

• 34:40Speaker 00

  toughen it out? I don't know. But what I have figured out is that pain is, is not generally broad in scope. It's usually isolated or acute. So you, you brought it up. You said, my wrist hurts. Well, you didn't say your bicep hurt. You said your wrist hurts.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  So figure it the F out. Like, this is what I get frustrated with. Not that, not that you're in pain, but that we use acute pain to excuse poor behavior. Like when I had this, this problem with my rupture, I went, I still went to jujitsu three nights a week religiously. Now, did I train jujitsu? No, that would have been stupid. But I was in the corner doing lunges, doing box step ups, eventually moving to box jumps. I was doing curls with this arm, not my left arm. And I was

• 35:40Speaker 00

  watching and observing and asking questions and participating to the degree that I could. And then when I came back after my, after this had recovered, I remember I was rolling maybe that first or second week of being back and I took it at about 50%. And I told my, the, the guys, my sparring partners I was training with, I'm like, hey, I'm hurt here. Like if you get me in a compromising position, I'm gonna tap early. They're like, cool, no problem. And they didn't even attack this side because that's what a good sparring partner would do. But I remember training with somebody, a good friend of mine, Ryan Daggett. And he said to me, he's like, hey, man, like, you're just getting back. Like you're really good for getting back. That's what he said. You're really good for just getting back into it. Yeah, because I never stopped.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Now I pivoted, right? I was actually in better shape when I came back to the mats than when I left. Because I was still eating right, training, watching, observing, learning. And that's where I get really frustrated when guys are like, oh, I have a shoulder injury. I'm like, yeah, you didn't say a quad injury. You said a shoulder injury. Well, I can't go into the gym. Like, bro, you could do leg presses and that has nothing to do with your shoulder. But these are the excuses that we use to get us out of actually staying the course in spite of, yeah, some pain that you're gonna have to deal with to varying degrees.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  All right. Let's take that pain to the next level with the next question. It segues really well in from Cormac Whitfield. I tore my ACL playing rec league basketball last year and haven't been able to do the physical stuff that made me feel like myself since. My wife says I've gotten short tempered with the kids and I think she's right. Here's the question. How do a man's identity and his body stay separate when one of them fails?

• 37:41Speaker 00

  What? Again, you tore your ACL, your body didn't fail. What are you talking about?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  He's lost his whole identity in basketball.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Okay, so play, play basketball in a wheelchair. I don't care.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Play something else.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Find a new identity, man.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Like it's, I'm not trying to be impatient about this or, or insensitive. Like, I get it.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Okay, so it's, you weren't born a basketball player. Like you didn't come out of the womb dunking the basketball. You learned that along the way. Maybe you're tall, maybe you have a natural athletic ability. Maybe your brothers all played basketball and they beat up on you. And so you just got good at basketball. Uh, maybe that's the only sport that was available in your high school that you could make the team for. I don't know. There's a ton of reasons why you might get into basketball, but you weren't born a basketball player. You learned it and developed it at some point. And then ultimately that became your identity. Figure it out. What's gonna be your new identity? Find something else.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 00

  And by the way, a torn ACL does not keep you from playing basketball in the short term, sure. In the long term, no. You can continue to play basketball or you can do something completely different. You can become a great swimmer. Low impact, you know, still using all your muscles and your talents and your abilities and your athleticism, but low impact. There's a ton of things you could do. Cycling would be another thing. There's a lot you can do.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I struggle with tying your identity so deep into your hobby or sport going back to the beginning. And, uh, your identity is who you are. It's not what you're doing. Like Ryan said, you could pick any other sport or hobby to play and enjoy it just as much and, you know, and move on. It's who you are as a competitor at basketball that you want to keep. You want that competitive spirit to go on. Doesn't have to be in basketball. I agree with Ryan, ACL, give it time, you can play again. But I think you're holding a little too dearly, I am a basketball player. Well, it

• 39:56Speaker 01

  sounds to me like you're also a husband and you're also a parent. I assume you have a career. So these are just things that you do right now. And, uh, one of these things needs to pivot a little bit. That's all. But keep the core who you are and pivot into something else or into the recovery effort.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Well, I think that's, that last thing you said is a great point is like a lot of guys that I talk with, um, they're going through divorce and I often tell them, hey, it's time for you to make yourself the project. And they ask, what do you mean by that? I mean, fix yourself. Figure out all the flaws, all the weaknesses, all the vulnerabilities. Start to be a little bit more self-aware. Start to figure out where you can shore things up. Take responsibility and make yourself the project. You know, one thing you said, Alan, those you said, well, you're still a husband and you're still a father and you have a job. But again, that's falling into the same trap.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Because if I go to work tomorrow, on Monday, we're recording this on a Sunday evening, if I go in on Monday and my boss hands me a pink slip, then I'm gonna deal with the same situation as the basketball situation. Or my wife comes to me and says, I want a divorce. Well, now all of a sudden, I'm no longer a husband. I'm a single man. And so does that break me? Could, if you let it. So I would say rather than, because you brought up a good point. You said, it's who you are. But that's a, that's a phrase we use, but a lot of people don't understand it. Who you are is not what you do. The best way to describe yourself, for example, if I had to say to you,

• 41:32Speaker 00

  Alan, who are you? Tell me about yourself. It's like, uh, that movie, anger management, which, uh, Jack Nicholson and Adam Sandler. And in the first meeting, I think, uh, the therapist, Jack Nicholson says, well, tell us who you are. And he says, well, I'm a father. And he's like, oh, no, no, no. I don't want to know how many kids you have. I want to know who you are. And he's like, well, I'm a hard worker and I work at this company and I'm, have this position. He's like, oh, no, I don't want to know what you do. I want to know who you are. And Adam Sandler's like, I don't know what you want me to say. He gets mad.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  If you were dropped on a deserted island, just you by yourself, now who are you? That's what you gotta ponder.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  And that's the thing is, okay, so let's take that example. Who am I? I'm resilient. I'm talking about your island scenario. I'm resilient. I'm able to adapt. I'm creative.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Um, I'm intelligent, like I can think through problems, right? Or in, in our modern world, like I'm caring. I deeply care about my people. I, I'm service oriented. Uh, I'm honorable. I'm a man who tells the truth. I'm a man who can recognize things that are what they are. And I don't, I, I feel like I'm courageous. I don't have to pull punches. I can speak plainly about what I believe without fear of what other people might think about it. Those are all things that can exist regardless of any existential circumstance.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:26Speaker 00

  And once you start to get to those types of things that define you, then it doesn't matter if you're playing basketball or lacrosse or cycling or swimming or boxing or none of those. And you're a chess player or a painter or a photographer, uh, or an accountant or a CFO and a CPA. You can do whatever and still meet the criteria of who you actually are. That's why the book Start With Why by Sven Sennic is so beautiful. It's such a great book because he gets to that core.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And for Cormac, as soon as you can embrace that and really feel that that's who you are, that's when that short temperedness with the kids and all go away. You, you have to believe that yourself.

• 44:09Speaker 00

  I'm glad you brought, I forgot about that element, but those things will be addressed when you take care of the root of the problem. Good call.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Uh, all right, we're, we're having some anger issues here with, uh, Judah Petracchus. But it's not actually his anger. My youngest son has my ex-wife's temperament exactly. And I catch myself being colder to him than my other two kids because it reminds me of the marriage that fell apart. I hate that I do this. How does a man stop punishing a kid for something that isn't his fault?

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  What is the, you said Judah, right?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  What's the common denominator in the equation here?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Hmm. I said Judah. Judah.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  It's you. Now, two isn't necessarily conclusive, but something is happening here, right? Something's going on and I'd really try to consider, and we can give you some other advice that I think might be useful, I hope would be useful, but I might consider turning that mirror around and putting it on yourself and saying, okay, what was it about me that agitated my wife? And I'm not excusing women's behavior, by the way. Some people say when I say things like this, well, women are blah, blah, blah. I can't control what women do. You can't control what she does. So she might just have a bad attitude. What's worth examining is if you are doing something that creates a bad attitude in other people.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  And I'd also inventory and say, who else in your life has a bad attitude? And if you say, well, my boss and my friends and these people and those people, like you're, you're the only common denominator in this. I don't know what the relationship with your ex is like, but if, if it is true, and I, I believe it is, that, that your son has a very similar demeanor to your ex, which is very, very likely impossible. I don't know what the relationship is, but I've actually had this conversation with my ex where I've said, hey, I don't understand this child of ours. And I'm just saying that broadly because I don't want to be specific, but I don't understand this child of ours.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  I don't get it. Please help me understand. And she's actually, to her, to her credit, been very gracious about that and said, well, Ryan, you don't understand because he's like me or he does this, or you don't get it because of this or that. And it's very easy for me to get like defensive, but if I'm being honest, I'm like, oh yeah, you're right. Thank you for telling me. And I was so grateful after I got off my initial ego trip for her to say, that's the problem. And it caused me to really reflect and think about how I might approach this child differently than I may approach any one of my other children. And it's been an incredible blessing, not only in my life,

• 47:11Speaker 00

  but the relationship between my child and myself is that I can now have conversations with a little bit more understanding that this person, this human being is different than they, than me. They don't, they don't think like me. They don't speak like me. They don't process like me and they're not broken because of it. You're falling into that trap, Jude, that is of this person's broken. That your child is not broken. They're just different than you. And what they bring to the table might be a beautiful thing if you could help cultivate and inspire it outside of what you naturally gravitate towards.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's really good. I also was wondering here if Judah is over this divorce? If he's moved on, if he's finished the failure? Because you're, you're spinning your ex-wife's temperament into your kid. And I don't think it's the temperament of your ex-wife that's the problem. It's the trigger that your son acts like your ex-wife. And that triggers all this negativity from the divorce that you're still harboring, potentially. I don't, I don't know if this divorce is two weeks ago or 10 years ago.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  But you, some interpersonal reflection of, am I really over the divorce? And, and look, you, usually when you want to get over something, you want forgiveness back and forth. You and your ex are probably not gonna throw, I'm sorry, it didn't work out. Most don't. But you can forgive yourself for your shortcomings in the marriage. And then you can start looking just forward facing, just moving on from the divorce. And this is the child I have. And this is how my child is. And don't even think about your ex in relation to when you're with your child and they're throwing a tantrum. Your ex shouldn't even come up.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  It's, it's you and them and moving forward to solve whatever is causing them to be upset. So I think some deep interreflection is, uh, is needed there in addition to what I said.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  Alan, I actually, I don't disagree with you. I, I do, I do agree with that, but I, I don't, I don't think it's exclusively true. I, I definitely agree that there's triggers, right? I definitely agree that the way that one of your children acts might, because I've had this, might remind you of your ex. Like I believe that is totally viable. That's completely potentially that you have this trigger. And where I think I like what you said is that, great, it's good. Now, if you're self-reflective and you want to be a better man, like I think you do, because you're tapping into what we're doing here.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Now, instead of looking at it like, oh, this person's a problem, you can begin to look at it and say, oh, this is another chance. This, this is an opportunity. And, and look, I believe that God will continue to give you the same enemy until you learn to defeat the enemy. What, and I'm not saying your children are your enemy. I'm saying the way you're showing up might be the enemy. And God will continue to present you with that challenge until you prove you're capable of dealing with that challenge. And that challenge might be a personality. That personality might really, really bother you for some even legitimate reasons.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  Like how many times has a person, um, you've run into somebody and you meet somebody and, and their name is Steve and you're like, I hate Steve. I don't like that guy. Well, is it that you don't like him or that the guy who used to pick on you in high school's name was Steve? And so it's not him, it's the name that you don't like and you associate it with him. So we do that too. It's wild that we do stuff like this, right? And, and I think you might have a real opportunity to, to, to sit with your child and, and say, you know what? Man, second chance is here. Like maybe there's an opportunity for me to handle this differently in the way that I should have when I was first presented with this challenge.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  And maybe that just makes you a better person and then gets you closer to your child in the, in the process.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Good thought. Excellent thought. Yeah. All right, let's keep rolling.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Reginald Tucson asks, I'm the only man in my friend group who didn't go to college and it's never said out loud, but I feel it every time the conversation turns to careers. How do you build self-respect around a path that nobody around you validates? Go ahead, throw it out there, Ryan.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Well, the first thing you do to build respect is you stop trying to get respect from people. Because what you're doing is you're being, I'm gonna clean this up. You're, you're being a sniveling crybaby and that's cleaning, cleaning the language up. I don't need your validation to know that I'm being a success. And if I'm seeking your validation, by default, I'm actually probably looking pretty pathetic in the eyes of the people that I'm seeking validation from, even if they don't describe it. So what I would say, again, I'm trying to clean the language up here a little bit.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, stop whining about it. Okay, stop whining. You know what? I would argue that probably it's a bigger issue for you than it is your friends. I bet they really don't care all that much. And I bet that you're projecting your own sense of inadequacy onto them. Like guys don't do this. This is not a thing men do. Men don't sit around and like, well, you know, you know, Steve, uh, actually Alan didn't even get a degree. Guys don't do that. Cause we don't fucking care. You know who does that?

• 53:44Speaker 00

  Women do that.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  And in women, it's not bad. It's them relating, it's them associating, as long as they're not being mean spirited and throwing people under the bus, it's them relating with each other. We don't care. Guys don't care. You care. And I'll be honest, I think that's effeminate behavior.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  You know how you know they don't care? Cause you're in their friends group. If they care, it wouldn't be friends with you.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  Good call. So here's what I would ask on this one. Reginald, I think it was.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Why does not having a degree make you feel inferior and inadequate? Now, I don't want to hear about your friends. Like, I don't want to hear about what they, I want to know why you think not having that degree makes you feel inferior and inadequate.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  I would put dollars to donuts that Reginald's parents really wanted him to get a degree, and he didn't. This is a childhood issue. He needs to move past.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  So the question then becomes, I don't want to leave him hanging, and I know it kind of like harped on him a little bit here. The question is, how do you do that? Well, I would say, use the battle plan. And I know that that might be self-serving, but the battle plan is very simply this, whether you use our system or something like it, it's very simply this. Start thinking about what you want. Vision, we talked about that several minutes ago. Then come up with some objectives for the next 90 days. By the end of the, at the end of the year, what are some things you want to do with your money? What are some things you want to do with your fitness? What are some things you want to do? Maybe there's a relationship you want to build up? And what are some things that you want to do to make yourself better, to improve?

• 55:35Speaker 00

  Focus on those four areas. Money, self-development, that could be learning a new skill, it could be getting closer with God, whatever it might be, your physical fitness, and then a relationship that you want to improve. That's it. Focus on those four things. Pick one thing in each of those categories. And then from there, say one thing that you'll do every single day, and don't fail until the end of the year. Give yourself to the end of the year. Don't fail. If you say, well, you know what, I think I'd feel better about myself if I lost 20 pounds. Great. Cool. What's one thing you can do, just one, one thing you can do that will help you move to 20 pounds of weight loss? And maybe you say, oh, I'm just going to work out for 45 minutes every

• 56:19Speaker 00

  single day. Good. You now committed to doing that for the next 90, what, it's probably actually closer to 120 days at this point, maybe a little longer, but you're going to commit to doing that for the rest of the year. Uh, maybe you say, well, I just, I feel like if I really developed and honed my faith, I'd feel better about myself because I would know that there's like a divine purpose for me on this planet. Good. I like that. What are you gonna do? I'm gonna read the scriptures every day for 15 minutes per day. Perfect. Once you figure out what that is, do not fail yourself. I don't care what your friends say. I don't care what trips you're going on. I don't care what time you go to bed. I don't care about what hardship you're dealing with, or what issues

• 57:04Speaker 00

  or things you're struggling with. None of that matters at this point. What matters is that you said you're gonna work out for 45 minutes per day. You said you're gonna read the scriptures for 15 minutes per day, and maybe you have a few other things you're doing, and you would just be relentless in those and prove to yourself, not your buddies, prove to yourself that you can be a man of your word. And I promise you, when you put your head on the pillow on December 31st, you will be almost unrecognizable from the man that you are today. And that's my wish for you, is that in 120 days, 130 days, whatever, I don't know the math, whatever it is, that you are

• 57:44Speaker 00

  completely unrecognizable to you, to yourself, to man, the man in the mirror. By the way, all your friends will acknowledge it too, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that you change yourself and you see it in yourself.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  And it sounds farfetched to some people. We see guys do this in the Iron Council all the time. The majority that join, we see them. It's pretty cool to see those transformations.

• 58:09Speaker 00

  Four things a day, Alan, is that, that's prob, that's part of the problem with our battle planning system, is because if I just said, oh, I do four things a day, everybody's like, it couldn't be that easy. No, it is. It is. If you do four things every day until the end of the year, your life will be radically different.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's not just about those four things. It's about the kind of person that does what they say they're gonna do every single day. Do those four things. Transforms you.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  I want to get to this next question. I think it's an important one. A lot of men probably reflect on, from Otis Ravencroft. When did you realize your dad was just a man, not a hero? And did that make things better or worse?

• 59:04Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't want to speak totally ill of my father. I don't, I don't like doing that. He's not here to defend himself. He passed away years ago.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  My dad got me high for the first time.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  And that's when I knew.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  How old were you?

• 59:29Speaker 00

  I've forgiven him for that. I've, I've come to terms with that. Um, I mean, I made my choices too, I guess, but when you're in that situation with your father, it's like, you don't, you're a kid. Like, how do you, how do you not do that? How do you resist that, even if it's something you're worried about or scared of? But that's the reality of the situation. And it, with that said, it actually made it better in the long run.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Why?

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Because I realized that this is a human being capable of making bad decisions. And

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  that's it. I could start looking at people objectively. Well, we are, we are all good in some ways, we're all horrible in some ways. And I started to learn how to compartmentalize between what is good and redeeming in people, and what is not good and not redeeming in people. And there are things that I would say are so intolerable that there's no redemption, at least for a relationship. That's not the way I felt with my dad, by the way. Uh, but for the most part, I can look at somebody, and this has given me so much peace, actually, tons of peace, because I can look, Alan, you're actually good at this too. Like, we've had, we've got, you and I have gone at it. Like, we, we've had our debates and arguments and been frustrated and not talked

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  for days and weeks. Like, we've had that. But you're good at this. And that is realizing, that's not the entirety of a person. That's a moment in time, and there might be a way to reconcile and get through this. And I, and I love people like that. It's hard for me to, to, to understand why a person can't compartmentalize that way, where they can't say, hey, you know what? That's not real flattering about Ryan. And also, I still really care about Ryan. And so he's like 90% good in my book, and the other 10 is just who he is. And if I'm a friend, that's something I'm gonna have to deal with. And you can decide whether it's something you want to deal with or not, but I think it made it really good for me because it afforded me the ability to, to learn

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  about grace and compartmentalization. And I think I'm a better man for it, quite honestly.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's awesome. Um, you know, I said earlier on this podcast that we didn't, our kids didn't come with owner's manuals. Well, we never really relay that back to our parents. We didn't come with owner's manuals either. Uh, and I think that's important to, to recognize. And maybe that's for some people, when they start to recognize their dad and mom as a person and not a hero. Um, my dad had extreme manic depressive, uh, came on suddenly when I was eight years old. He was never able to function in society the remainder of his life after that. Around, he was

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  my hero, hardcore hero. Um, round about when I turned 18, was getting into emergency medicine, and really started learning about this disability more, uh, is when I started recognizing him as the man he was. And I, I want to say, still my hero to this day. Um, as, he was a man. He had a lot of faults that he could never get past, controllable or uncontrollable. Um, but that doesn't, just because they're a man, all heroes are people, right? You know, the, the hero that

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  saves your life, the whatever, your football hero, they're people. So you, they're not one or the other. And your parents hopefully should be heroes, and you just also recognize that they're, um, that they're people at some point. For me, it made the relationship better. I could be more empathetic to my dad as to why he was doing so many screwy things and couldn't hold a job and all the other issues that he had. Um, so it made it a lot easier in my particular situation.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  But I would say for all of you out there, make sure you recognize that they can be both. I think that's really important.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was thinking about this and I appreciate you sharing that, Alan. I know it's, you know, these types of conversations are sensitive, but there's, there's a really good song, it's by Lee Bryce and it's called Hard to Love. I think is, and I pulled it up here as you were talking and it's,

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Are you gonna sing?

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  No, I'm not gonna sing. I'm just gonna read a couple lyrics. I'm not gonna sing it though. But it's more, it's more based around a romantic love, but I think it's still kind of interesting. You guys should listen to it. It says, "I am insensitive. I have a tendency to pay more attention to the things that I need. Sometimes I drink too much. Sometimes I test your trust. Sometimes I don't know why you stay with me." You guys can go through the rest of that song, but it's actually a really good song about this idea that even though we try to do our best, we're not perfect. And we are not always like, I don't know how else to say it.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Like we are, we're just kind of assholes sometimes. And I think if you, if you look at these lyrics and you really think about the way that it applies to you, but also the way that it applies to other people. Like, yeah, your dad might be hard to love or your mom might be hard to love. Or here's another one, and here's another line from the lyrics. "I'm a short fuse, I'm a wrecking ball." I mean, name somebody that doesn't describe that you know close in your life. And you know what? Yeah, maybe they are. And also maybe they're worthy of love and maybe you are too. So maybe at some point I'll sing that for you guys. Not today though.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Guys, make sure you send emails to [email protected] requesting him to cut his first album.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Why would you just blast my email like that? All right, what else?

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  All right. I can't even see straight now. Silas Broderick asks, "This was actually a tough one. My wife wants a fourth kid. I'm done financially, emotionally, physically. We are at a genuine impasse and I don't know if compromise is even possible on this one. What does leadership look like when the answer might be no and staying married anyway?"

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, staying married anyway is good because having three kids is infinitely harder divorced than it is together. So I just want to put that out there. So I'm glad that you've said, well, I want to stay together. Um, I don't know, you know, I didn't run into this, I have four kids. And when we contemplated having our fourth, we had a very similar conversation with my ex. She said, "I think we have one more. I feel like we do." She said that, I remember. "I feel like we do. I had this dream." She had a dream about it. I was holding this little baby boy and I had a dream with it and I, and I just feel like we're supposed to. I'm like, really? Cause I don't feel any of that. Like I don't feel a thing about that.

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  And she's like, "Well, no, I feel it." I said, "Okay." Like, "All right, like I'm willing to entertain it." I wasn't shut down the same way I think this guy is necessarily. And that's okay. Like you can, you can, everybody's different. That's fine. But I would, if I were you, and hear me out on this. It's, it's probably more important to her, maybe I'm wrong, but it might be more important to her that she has another one than it is to you than that you don't. And I feel like that's how it was with the relationship with my ex. I feel like it was more important to her to have a fourth than it was for me not to. And that's not to discount the way you're feeling about things.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  You said financially, emotionally, physically. What if, and hear me out on this. What if, because I love bringing children into the world and I think we have a moral responsibility and obligation to bring children, we've been commanded to bring children in the world and raise, raise them in righteousness. So with that being the, the root of my belief. What if you figured out and talked with her about what it would look like financially to bring another child in the world? What would it look like with your physical schedule and your physical level of fitness? Like, I don't know, but are you 50 pounds overweight?

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  That might be contributing to part of your physical lethargy.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  What would your retirement look, retirement look like? You're gonna push it back another couple of years?

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  I'm just saying, I would, if, if I were you, because it sound, again, because I just think a woman, I really believe this, I think a woman's desire to have children, if she's in that, in that mode, is oftentimes more powerful than a man's desire not to. But I'm not saying overlook your own feelings and your own thoughts about it. I'm saying explore what it would look like if money was set. Explore what it would look like if physically you had more energy, more capacity, more time. Explore what it would look like if mentally you were in a healthier place and more connected and grounded and feeling a better about your family and who you were.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  Because if you were better off financially, if you were better physically, if you were better mentally, would this be as big of an issue? I don't know, I'm not gonna even project that. But I would argue that there are some things that I think, I'm really trying to think about this. I think you owe to your wife to explore before you put the kibosh on it.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  I didn't have to go through this either. So this is a tough one for me too, but clearly she has a very strong maternal instinct. And, and it's not met yet with three kids. I don't want this to come off sounding dismissive of having a kid. And obviously I know the value of having a kid and what that's like. But could she meet her maternal instinct in another way? Helping out at an orphanage, homeless shelter. Even pets can sometimes do that. Have a conversation with her, and this is a hard conversation, because again, you don't want to compare getting a puppy to getting a child.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  But is there something else, an alternative that would serve her? And I like the idea of, you know, even working at a daycare. To me, there would be nothing that would make me sick of kids quicker than working at a daycare.

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  That's menage.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  That'll kick it right out of you. That might be another route you go down. You, you, you know her, you've had multiple kids with her. So I think definitely explore, could you bring in another child? What would it look like in your life and in her life? You know, she may just be thinking about the maternal instinct of wanting another child. She's in the same financial straits as you are. So maybe she hasn't thought about, we'll be eating baked beans forever. And, you know, and what is her mental capacity for another child? And yeah.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  Alan, I totally disagree with you on that.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  I totally disagree. Like, I've not met a woman who wants a baby, who says that itch will be scratched by working at a daycare or helping my sister babysit their little toddler. Like I've, have you met a woman who's like been okay with that? I just, I don't think that's,

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  No, but I met women that work at daycares that don't want kids.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  Well, but that's different, but those women probably also don't want their own kids either though, right?

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Maybe. That's all I had. This is a tough one. Yeah.

• 1:12:05Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't, I mean, look, I think the conversation is worth having, but here's what I would be cautious of is when you say to her, "Hey babe, like I know you want another kid. I want you to fathom for a second that we're gonna be eating beans and rice for the next 10 years." You know what she's gonna say? "I don't care. I'll do that." Because she's not thinking about it logically. She's thinking about it emotionally in her feelings. Like her womb, her body is telling her to have another baby. Logic be damned. So I think you run, and I'm not saying don't have the conversations.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  I'll take the big L. It's okay.

• 1:12:46Speaker 00

  No, I don't even think take the L. I think have the conversations. Like I think just say, like, "Hey babe, look, like I know you're feeling like this. I know that this is important for you and I want you to know, I'm willing to entertain and explore what this might look like. And as much as you have feelings that we should have another child, I have valid concerns that we shouldn't. And maybe there is some mutual ground here, but there's some things that I would want to see for me to be comfortable with us moving forward with an expanded family. And here's what these things are. And can we do these things? And how do we make these things work? Because look, in any negotiation, Alan, if I come to you with a negotiation about business,

• 1:13:30Speaker 00

  let's say, and I'm like, "Hey Alan, here's what I need to have met before we do business together." You can say one of two things. You can say, "No, I don't want to meet those." It's like, "Cool, then we won't do business." Or you can say, "Yeah, I can meet those." I said, "Great, we'll do business." Or I guess the third alternative is, "Hey, I can meet these two or three things, but I'm not gonna meet those three things." And then I have a decision to make. And I'm not whittling it down to a business transaction, but I'm saying this is a negotiation. And it's like, "Hey babe, I'm willing to explore the idea with you of this." I mean, clearly you are, because you wouldn't ask the question if you weren't exploring. You would've already just said no and not even asked the question.

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  So figure out what needs to happen in order for you to feel comfortable about that. Cause if I were in your shoes and my wife wanted another baby, I would try to create the conditions where I could bring another baby into the world, because I think bringing kids into the world is amazing and I would want to please my wife and I'd want her to be a mother. I think that's a beautiful thing.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  All right. I'm gonna still go with the big L for me.

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  The big L as in what? Do it or don't do it? What's the big L?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  No, no, big L for me. I didn't, my, my answer, not as strong.

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, I got it. Yeah. No, you're right. That was an L for sure. I'm just kidding.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Well, we got one more. One more for tonight. I'll see if I can hit it out of the park here.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  Redeem yourself. Redeem yourself.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Nash Overby, you're giving me the chance here. Quick hit. What's one provide instinct that actually hurt your marriage instead of helping it?

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  One provide instinct.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  I think this is what most guys deal with in the realm of provision. We think that providing financially is enough.

• 1:15:29Speaker 00

  That's what every guy deals with. And you know it because you've said, well, I don't know why you're so angry. Like, I know I wasn't there for you tonight, or I worked late, or I had to work this weekend, or I wasn't at little Timmy's baseball game, but I was working. I was trying to put food on the table. I was trying to get clothes for the kids for back to school. I was trying to pay for their extra. The only reason Timmy can play in Little League is because I'm out there busting my tail, making money so that he can play Little League baseball.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  So we've all said it. We've all said things like that. We've all done things like that. And I'm not saying you're even wrong. I'm saying, congratulations, you checked a box of provision. You didn't check all the boxes. And I think if more of us understood that, we might divvy up those resources a little differently in the future.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  So my first marriage, I was a textbook Mr. Nice Guy for, I checked every box on that. So providing for me came to a, it was a big surprise when I was going through a divorce and my ex-wife said I was controlling. And I'm like, controlling? I was just making decisions to run the family. I never, never saw it as controlling. Totally blindsided me. And that's a, it's a balance and it requires communication and self, knowing the self well enough. So yeah, that, that's my provide.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  It's not over providing. You can't over provide, but you, you have to allow your wife to have her own

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  voice in it and have the two-way conversations. Don't just provide.

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  I think that's a good point. You know, I think about this maybe in a silly context because we often talk about with, with men, how, you know, men should be making decisions on behalf of their family, but also taking their wife's perspective into consideration. And a small example of that might be that you want to take your wife out this weekend, maybe Friday night. If I were in your shoes, what I would refrain from doing is saying, hey babe, I'd like to go out this weekend. When do you think we should go? What should we do? What would you like to do? I would refrain from that. Right? What I would do is I would say, hey babe, I'd like to go out this weekend. How does Friday night sound? If that works, I've, I've, I've got us reservations for the new steakhouse in town.

• 1:18:07Speaker 00

  Now, if she's allergic to steak, probably don't take her to the steakhouse, right? Or sushi is more like it, you know, it's like, hey, I got, I got reservations for the new seafood place in town, but she's allergic to shellfish. Okay asshole, probably don't get reservations at the seafood place. Maybe go to the steak place instead, right? You can take her into consideration. So come up with a plan as an assertive man. Hey babe, how's Friday night? If that works for you, I've got us reservations. I've got a sitter coming over. She'll be here at 6:30. We have dinner at 7:30. And then that evening, I got us a, a room at the new hotel that just opened up. It's really nice. I got us a room for the evening.

• 1:18:51Speaker 00

  And grandma's coming over tonight to take care of the kids until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  That's assertive leadership as a man. And then if she says, well, you know what? I'm just, I'm just worried about, you know, the kids and I don't know if, if my mom is like really in the, in the right headspace to take care of the kids. It's like, hey babe, no problem. How about this? How about instead, we stay here or, you know, we stay closer or we do something. Like you figure it out, right? You do something different that accommodates her concerns, but still puts you in the position of leadership. And I think the more men who do that, the better off they're gonna be. So I'm not saying you need to be a tyrant by any means, but I am saying that you can make decisions,

• 1:19:43Speaker 00

  but still take into consideration and adapt when necessary. I just think that's a, I, I wish I would have done that more. I wish I would have been more assertive. And I also wish I would have taken into consideration the way that my ex-wife might have felt about things in those moments.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I do today. It's worked very well now.

• 1:20:05Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it's a fine line between leading well and letting other people have a say. So here's what I wouldn't do in that scenario to give you the opposite. It's like, hey babe, I got us this, I got us reservations at the new steakhouse. This great new hotel opened up across town. I got us the best room with the best view. Grandma's coming over to watch the kids. We gotta be back by 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. And then she says, well, I'm worried because grandma, fill in the blank. And then you're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is stupid. Don't worry about that. You don't need to worry about that. You always worry about these things and I don't know why you do this and let's just go have a good night together.

• 1:20:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're leading, but you're tiptoeing and dancing on the line of tyranny and dictatorship than cooperation with the person you love the most in the world.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  And that whole evening, she's just gonna be worried about is grandma taking care of the kid well? She's not gonna be having the good time that you want her to.

• 1:21:04Speaker 00

  Totally. I mean, you could even be calm. You can say, how about this? Grandma will be there tonight. I still have the reservation for the room. Why don't we have a late evening and we'll get in around midnight? We'll get home midnight, 1:00 AM. You and I'll have a good night together and we'll, we'll get home late and you'll wake up with the kids and I'll get up and I'll cook them breakfast in the morning. Cool. Like we can all do that. That's a good compromise. One that puts you in the position of authority and also lets you know, lets her know that you're willing to compromise and take her consider, her, her feelings into consideration.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  You know, all that in mind, Ryan. I wonder if we can add presiding over your family to our list of sports.

• 1:21:47Speaker 00

  No. What's the competition?

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Not presiding, failing is the competition. I don't know.

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, but who are you, but you're not competing against somebody directly, right? So isn't that part of the definition of a sport?

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  I guess. A solitary is not a sport?

• 1:22:04Speaker 00

  No, sorry. No.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:08Speaker 00

  I gotta figure out, I'm gonna come up with a universal definition of what a sport is. I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna crack this code.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Do it. Do it. Friday field note.

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  And then I'll come up with a list of approved sports and everything else is not. And you guys can just deal with it.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  As long as radio controlled car racing is on it.

• 1:22:28Speaker 00

  It won't be. I can guarantee you that.

• 1:22:32Speaker 00

  So wait, if RC car racing is a sport, what about battle bots? Cause that's something I actually kind of like. I love it. It's competitive. It requires technical skill. I would not call it a sport.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  I would totally call it a sport.

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  What? Why? What's the, what's the logic?

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  You're following a structured set of rules. You're competing against somebody else for total destruction. Not even a touchdown. We're talking about kick the other guy until he's in flames. It's a competition.

• 1:23:05Speaker 00

  Okay, so but is war a sport?

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Ooh, hey, we're gonna get deep. Is war a sport?

• 1:23:13Speaker 00

  I mean athleticism, I would say an element of athleticism for sure. But is it a sport?

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  I mean, just messing around with the definition, other than the fact that that definition you read earlier said nobody should get hurt. It, it actually would fit the definition, Ryan. That's tough.

• 1:23:35Speaker 00

  It would fit the definition, except for the one, one of the things that actually define it. According to the Federal Sports Agency or whatever it was.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  But we call boxing and MMA and...

• 1:23:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, those are sports. That's why I don't agree with that definition totally. That's why we gotta come up with a new one. But I also wouldn't call hunting a sport. I wouldn't call hiking a sport even.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:23:59Speaker 00

  Cause you're not competing.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:24:03Speaker 00

  Unless it's a competitive hike, in which case I would say that's sporting.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  What about when we're competing against ourselves though? We could go on all night with this.

• 1:24:13Speaker 00

  No, that doesn't count. It's gotta be outside, external competition for sure, to be a sport, at least from where I sit.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Okay. We're gonna have to continue this one.

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  And there has to be some sort of threshold for physical exertion. Like golf's borderline, bowling is borderline, RC car racing, with all due respect, is not borderline.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  So target shooting.

• 1:24:40Speaker 00

  Although I love it. No, that's not, that's not a, like if I'm, if I'm shooting a gun at a target, I wouldn't consider, like a decathlon, okay, sure.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  That's where I was gonna go.

• 1:24:53Speaker 00

  Right. That's sporting.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Is it half sport, half not sport? And a decathlon?

• 1:24:57Speaker 00

  No, no, because they, they wrapped it all, they, they, they cheated the system. They balled it all up in one thing. And so now it's just, it's like pregnant. You either are or you're not.

• 1:25:09Speaker 00

  There's no, like halfway I am. Doesn't exist.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:15Speaker 00

  But there's gotta be some, in my mind, there's gotta be some sort of threshold for physical exertion.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  I just think we, it's an English language problem. We lack enough words for the types of games that we play.

• 1:25:29Speaker 00

  Well, guys, if you have any insight so that we can come up with the official Order of Man definition of sport, please let us know because we will adopt that immediately and publish it far and wide. So everybody now has the new standard.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  And Ryan will sing the national anthem at the first new sport.

• 1:25:47Speaker 00

  You bet your ass I will.

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  All right, brother. Bring us home.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Bring, I thought that was bringing it home there.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  Well, we gotta ask guys to do something. Here, I'll tell them. Guys, so this is being released on Wednesday, September 16th, tonight, this evening, at 8:00 PM Eastern, we have the War Room. We're gonna be talking about the victim machine and we're gonna be talking about different ways to lead. There was some leadership questions today. You can either be a persecutor, a rescuer, or a victim. And my good friend and co-host of this podcast, actually, when you're not filling in, Alan, Kip Sorenson is gonna be there to talk about the distinction and how to move us better into effective leadership with our kids, with our wife, with our community, our business partners, employees, et cetera.

• 1:26:40Speaker 00

  So if you want to be a better leader, which basically means your life will be better and so will other people's, go to orderofman.com/warroom, tonight at 8:00 PM Eastern.

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Look forward to seeing you there.

• 1:26:55Speaker 00

  All right, Alan. I think we cleaned up the audio on this one. I appreciate you. Thanks for the great questions, guys. We'll be back on Friday for our Friday field notes. Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.