ANDY STUMPF | A Quiet Professional's Guide to Chaos

Every man will eventually find himself in water over his head. A business that's sinking, a marriage that's struggling, a season of life where you can't see the shore. Most men panic. They thrash around, burn through their energy, and make emotional decisions they regret for years. The men who make it through aren't stronger or more talented. They stay calm, focus on what they can control, and take the next breath. My guest today, former Navy SEAL Andy Stumpf https://www.instagram.com/andystumpf212/?hl=en, knows this better than anyone. We talk about the drownproofing evolution at BUD/S and what it really teaches, why you should have emotional responses but never make emotional decisions, and the "chunking" approach he says is the most useful tool he's ever had. We also get into why most guys who quit regret it for decades, the difference between being a quiet professional and a silent one, why telling the truth is always enough, and what real wealth looks like once you stop chasing more. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 Introduction & Catching Up 01:10 Master Jiu-Jitsu Competitions & Mindset 02:50 The Reality of Jiu-Jitsu Culture 04:15 Demystifying the BUD/S Drownproofing Test 07:15 Emotional Control in Real-World Situations 09:15 Practical Stoicism and Objectivity 12:00 Leveraging Time to Prevent Emotional Decisions 14:15 Technology Usage and Healthy Digital Boundaries 17:00 Gen-Z and Connectivity Fatigue 19:40 The Quiet Professional vs. Silent Professional 21:30 The Importance of Absolute Truth and Integrity 24:00 Taking Personal Ownership vs. Making Excuses 26:50 The Chunking Strategy for Achieving Goals 33:00 Daily Writing Discipline for Drownproof 35:00 Navigating Regret, Failure, and Pivoting 38:30 Talent vs. Relentless Work Ethic 40:25 Mindset for Survival and Overuse Injuries 43:40 Transitioning Out of Military Service & Identity 46:15 Exploring Aviation and Unforeseen Opportunities 49:30 Authentic Relationships vs. Strategic Networking 51:20 Guarding Your Inner Circle 54:00 Snowboarding, Flying, and Lifelong Learning 55:35 The Surprising Origin of Writing Drownproof 57:40 Measuring Impact Beyond Money 59:45 Redefining Wealth and Financial Freedom Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Every man will eventually find himself in water over his head. Maybe that's a business that's sinking, a marriage that's struggling, or a season of life where you can't just see the shore. And what most men do is panic. They thrash around, they burn through all of their energy, and they make emotional decisions they could potentially regret for years. But the men who make it through aren't really that much stronger or more talented. They just stay calm, focus on what they can control, and take the next breath. Now, my guest today, former Navy SEAL Andy Stumpf, knows this better than anyone. We talk about the drown-proofing evolution at BUDs and what it actually teaches you,

• 0:45Speaker 00

  which might be a surprise to you, why you should have the emotional responses, but never make emotional decisions, and the quote-unquote "chunking" approach that Andy says is the most useful tool that he's ever utilized. But we also get into why most guys quit and those who do regret it for decades, the difference between being a quiet and a silent professional, and why telling the truth is always enough. And the last thing is what real wealth looks like once you stop chasing more.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am your host and the founder of Order of Man, Ryan Mickler. Thanks for tuning in today. We have been going for 11 and a half years. What an amazing thing. That's, that's a long time to have started this business over a decade ago in the world of podcasting and people not knowing what podcasting is. But more importantly than that, it's a long time to be helping men who want to improve in their lives. And every single day of my life since 11 years ago when I started this, I've been talking with guys who want to be better fathers, husbands, business owners, community leaders. And we're faced with all sorts of existential crisis and threats

• 2:22Speaker 00

  and, and problems that quite, quite literally threaten our way of life and our desire to be the kind of men that we want to lead as, as we serve our families and businesses and communities. So this is a resource that will help you do just that. If you're tuning in for the first time, hopefully you'll get some insight from the podcast today. Now, before I get into the podcast, I've got some good friends over at Montana Knife Company. I've got a hunt coming up as of the release of this podcast this weekend. It's one of my favorite hunts. I go on this every single year and every single year. Well, as long as I get myself a harvest, I end up using my Montana Knife Company knives.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  If you're looking for a good knife in the field as an everyday carry, in the kitchen, or whatever you might be doing as a man, look no further than Montana Knife Company. And make sure you use the code ORDEROFMAN, all one word, ORDEROFMAN, at checkout, and you'll get a discount when you do. Now, let me introduce you to my guest. A lot of you guys know who this man is. I've had him on the podcast multiple times. His name is Andy Stumpf. He's a retired Navy SEAL who made it through BUDs on his first attempt, which is common, but also it's not uncommon to not make it through based on a lot of factors that we talk about today. But he later returned, a decade later, if I remember correctly, as an instructor where he spent time with students, you know, right after they rang that bell.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  And we talk about that on the podcast. The conversations, the regret that he heard in nearly every single one of them shaped how he thinks about time and discipline and perseverance. And after being medically retired, he built a career that includes years with CrossFit and work as a corporate and charter pilot flying jets across the US and internationally. He's also the author of his latest book, Drown Proof, his first and latest book, Drown Proof, with a foreword by Jaco Willink. And he hosts two podcasts, Cleared Hot, a lot of you guys are familiar with that. I've been on Cleared Hot and also Change Agents. He's been training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for nearly eight years and, as you'll hear in this podcast, spends his fall chasing big game

• 4:32Speaker 00

  with his wife in the back country of, of the United States. Enjoy this one, gents.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Andy, what's up, brother? Good to see you. It's been, what, a month and a half or so since we got back from immersion camp? But man, it sounds like you're a busy guy.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Has it only been a month and a half?

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Let's see, yeah, end of August. So yeah, about a month and a half. Crazy, right?

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Tail end of the, well, the tail end of the calendar always gets busy. If you're into hunting in the northwestern states, you have 60 days to basically get it done. So right after immersion camp, Leah goes to Masters in Vegas. And I usually start doing hunting trips, trying to get in when I can in the limited time I have.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  How does she do this year at, at Masters?

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, for the last few years, she hasn't had the competitive run that she's wanted to. And for people out there not familiar, especially at the Masters World Competition, half the people are done after their first match. So you pay a good amount of money and you train all year long and you go out there and travel. And she fell into that category for this year, which hasn't always been the case. You know, she's been a world champion multiple times at different belt levels. And she's at a phase in her Jiu-Jitsu where she would describe, where I think she's not performing the way that she wants to. But she's fantastic about it. You know, I've never seen her even get home a day or two later upset about that. More than anything, it's just logs on the fire for her to try even harder and work even harder.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  It seems like anybody who has been training Jiu-Jitsu long enough is no longer, I mean, competing is great, right? You've got competition. It helps you understand where you stack up against the competition. There is a level of ambition and drive that goes with it. It helps you be better. But anybody I've ever met is like, no, I'm stacking logs. Like you said, I'm just here to train. I'm here to get better. And that is a part of it, but not the entirety of why I'm training Jiu-Jitsu.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  I've heard from a lot of coaches say somewhere between 3% to a maximum of 5% of Jiu-Jitsu participants actually compete. So it's a very small sliver of people who actually participate in the activity. And for most people, they're doing exactly, I think, at least as a non-coach perspective and just a hobbyist participating in it, they're there for the social aspect, to get a workout in, to learn a new skill. I mean, anything other than spending thousands of dollars per year traveling around the world for competitive snuggling.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  That's a, that's a good way to say it. Like competitive snuggling, folding your clothes with people still in them is another one I've heard. It's pretty accurate for sure. How long have you been training? Cause you, what, maybe, what, eight, nine years, somewhere in there, 10 years?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Just under eight years, I think.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Eight years, okay. Yeah.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, getting ready to come on eight years.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Man, you've been doing, obviously you train a lot, you know, and, and we've had the chance to roll in the past. Part of the reason I have less hair on my face above my neck is because of you. I don't know if you remember when you scalped my beard and ran around like an Indian and we're pretty proud of your, your trophy, but that was when the beard got shorter.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Oh, totally my fault. Yeah, I should have, I should have tied it up or shaved it first or whatever. But yeah, no, no, no.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like the NFL, man. If it's outside of the helmet, it's fair game. If people want to grow a beard, I'm going to choke you right through your beard or with your beard. It's your choice.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  It's, it's interesting. It really speaks to your mentality because, and I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, but most people.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  That's not my mentality. Those are the rules of Jiu-Jitsu. If you have a beard, that's a handle. That's not my rules, that's Jiu-Jitsu.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  All right, fair, fair. Let me say it this way. Most people don't do that, even though I agree with you. 100% I agree with you.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  So that's funny, man. No, it's good. It was good to see you at immersion and good to see the family's doing well. Obviously on the back of a lot of success with the book, Drown Proof. I'm, I'm actually very curious about the, the exercise that, you know, the, the book covers based on, we've all seen it in movies, we've all heard about it. Like what is the actual exercise where you guys have your hands tied behind your back? And, you know, I don't know if you're like going down and picking up bricks or what you're doing. Like, explain the actual exercise you guys do in BUDs.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  It's very simple. It's your feet are tied together, your hands are tied together behind your back. And you, the, the actual test itself is you bob up and down for an hour. And then you have to swim the length of the pool down and back. Then you bob again, they throw a mask in. And I don't know why they do this particular section, but they throw a mask in. You pick it up with your teeth, you bob a few times, you do a front flip, which I don't know what that accomplishes. And then you swim your way over to the side of the pool. And for people hearing that like, wow, that must be tough. The reality is it's a very crawl, walk, run evolution. You practice doing that without any restraints on your hands or feet. Then there's Velcro ones that you can let go if you need to. And then during the test, it's a one-to-one student ratio,

• 9:19Speaker 02

  meaning each student has another student assigned to directly be looking at them with instructors in the pool as well. So it's not like you just throw them in there and expect them to do that. And the reality is it's one of the easier evolutions. If you're comfortable in the water, which hopefully you are going to that particular training pipeline, if you're comfortable in the water, it's, it's not that hard. You exhale to become slightly negatively buoyant. I think it's a 10 or somewhere between 10 to 15 foot deep pool. You sink to the bottom, you bounce off, catch a big breath on the way up and slowly let it down on the way back down again. And if you think about it, the instructor's ability to really communicate with you or participate with you is a fraction of a second while your head is above water. And you can totally just zen out if you want to and just enjoy the hour.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  It's, it's really, I'm not, this is not tongue in cheek. It's really not that hard of an evolution.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  I mean, it looks from the outside in, and it looks, it looks difficult. And I don't want to discount it because I've never done it, so I can't speak to it. But it seems like the key would be, would be to keep calm. Like, don't get frantic, don't outpace yourself. Like, just keep calm, keep cool, keep collected, do your routine, and you'll be fine.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  That's literally all it is. And again, if you were to just take people and they didn't get practice in that every single day, almost leading up to the test, it would be perhaps an insurmountable task. But by the time they actually are taking the test, they've done the introduction to it. They've done practice, they've done a practice test. I mean, it's not, I'm not saying it's simple, but I am saying it's easy.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I'm curious what you think. What, what does that look like in the real world for somebody who isn't going through that training? You know, what, what, what is making yourself drown proof? What, what exercises and things should you be doing on a daily basis that will help you overcome other obstacles that will inevitably come up in your life?

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, first off, it has nothing to do with being drown proof. They may call it that, but you can also look back into the history of real world SEAL operations and in training, people die in the water. Not often, but it does happen. When I was serving active duty, they found two guys dead at the Little Creek pool. They think it was a double shallow water blackout that they actually had a safety observer than they were doing something, or one guy was. The other one went in and had a shallow water blackout as well. They don't know. They found both of them at the bottom of the pool. One of the last deaths at BUDs was somebody who vomited underwater and aspirated it. There was the death of the two active duty SEALs in the Persian Gulf that fell off of a boat, or a caving ladder climbing a boat a few years ago. I know of a guy who drowned in a river, crossing a river. So the reality is, it doesn't make you drown proof in

• 11:56Speaker 02

  the evolution itself, although it occurs in the water and that is in the name of it. It really has nothing to do with the water and has everything to do with just controlling your emotions, regardless of what's happening in the world around you. It's about following procedure, whether you want to or not, prioritizing the things like you already mentioned, just, you know, staying calm, you know, thinking about what you need to do and being calm and executing those. And that is what gives it broad overlap into the civilian world, because that's what people need to do. When things start getting out of control, you need to start focusing on the things that you can control, which is just yourself, how you talk to yourself, how you set your goals, how you think about yourself, how you focus on time, how you focus on the obstacles that are in front of you, or the, the problems that you're trying to solve. You have complete control over

• 12:41Speaker 02

  all of those things and that's what you focus on. So again, they call it drown proof, but it's, it's anything but making you impervious in the water.

• 12:49Speaker 00

  I mean, I think that's a good distinction because regardless of your training, whether it's in BUDs or different, different types of training or the real world, there are things that come up that you just are beyond your control. I am curious though, what is your take on the concept of Stoicism? Cause I think a lot of people look at it and they think, oh, suppression of emotion. That's not what Stoicism is. I think a lot of people think that, but I'm very curious about your relation, your relationship personally with the emotions that you experience on a daily basis.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  I mean, I think I have the same emotional capacity and range as anybody else. Stoicism, to me, which I'm not a deep student of, I understand, you know, the, the written works around that and Marcus Aurelius is often, you know, named as one of the, the most famous Stoics and I, I like a lot of his work. But the reality is, it's not about being emotionless. To me, Stoicism is about removing emotions from your decision-making process so you can maintain your objectivity. It's, you have to, you, you need to have emotions. I think having emotions is probably one of the more beautiful things about being a human being. I mean, that would be super weird. I, I guess you'd have to fall into the range of a sociopath or a psychopath that has to fake those emotions. You know, there are a mirror of the people that are around them because they're

• 14:04Speaker 02

  not capable of having those emotions themselves. So they mirror and project what they are in the environment with. I wouldn't want to live like that. But I also don't want to live in a world where people allow their emotions to interact with their decision-making process, which I think is very common. And it doesn't help. There's no upside to involving your emotions to your decision-making process, but there is probably an unlimited downside if you let your emotions take control. So Stoicism to me is that. It's recognizing when those two are interacting and doing my absolute best to be as whole of a person as I can be and have that emotional range. But when important things come up or I need to make decisions, I have to be able to separate emotion from objectivity. So I can actually work my way through what's happening

• 14:49Speaker 02

  as opposed to being blinded by how I feel.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  When you first said you should remove it altogether, I, at first I was like, no, you should have some of that. But as you explained that, it actually makes sense now that you say it that way to differentiate the two. Like the way that I hear you saying it is, I can acknowledge that I'm angry, for example. And then once I acknowledge I'm angry, okay, there's a warning light. I need to do something about whatever situation I'm dealing with and let's remove the anger factor and let's walk through the resolution factors.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  It's totally appropriate to have emotional responses, but you shouldn't make emotional decisions. Those are two very different things.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  How in the moment, um, let's say through, through your, your previous career as a Navy SEAL or even the work you're doing now, how do you, in the moment when you do feel like, well, let me back up. How do you acknowledge and recognize in the moment that emotion is creeping in? And then secondary to that question is, when it is, what are things that you do to say, oh, hold on, that's emotion. Let's fix this. Let's course correct.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  I mean, I think for people, time is their biggest asset. If it's not life limra eyesight, why are you rushing? We live in a world where people have artificial emergencies all the time. And I'm not here to tell anybody how to live their life. But if you look at all the decisions that you may be required to make throughout the course of an average day, how many of them are actually emergencies? Hopefully none. I mean, I'm not saying that they're not important, but hopefully none of them are emergencies. So why not take as much time as humanly possible or as much time as available to work your way through that? And for me, I can recognize the emotions pretty easily. And I think most people can too, if they can stay kind of in check with who they are. Like for me, anger, I can, I oftentimes will start feeling a little bit flush in my face. That's something I've been able to recognize. Like, or my shoulders were tense a little bit

• 16:44Speaker 02

  if, if I start getting frustrated. And it's just an ability to check in with yourself and take a deep breath. And again, I would just, for most people, just use time. Use time as your greatest asset because if it's not, I mean, like life limra eyesight, probably need to make a decision pretty quickly. But even in those moments, don't rush to your death, right? Take the time you need to think through it. But anything else outside of that, I mean, take a breath, take five minutes, take a walk. What's, you know, what's the downside there? You make a better decision? Oops.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, too bad. Um, yeah, I've noticed that too. Like, for example, I might get frustrated or impatient with my kids. And if I, if I just immediately bounce towards response or resolution, I usually end up getting more and more frustrated and short with them. I might yell at them, raise my voice, say something dumb. But if it's, if I'm like, hey, hold on, you know, let's take a breather. You go to your room or hang out for a minute. I'm going to go over here. I'm going to go on a quick walk. We'll reconvene. But it's interesting because we have, I don't even know where my cell phone is, but it's funny when people are like, oh, I need to have my phone on me just in case there's an urgency. I'm like, well, what did you do 20 years ago? 25 years ago?

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Maybe 30 now. I'm getting older. So it's like, you didn't, you didn't have your phone on you and everything was fine. But as much as I love technology, I mean, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation without it. I think it actually makes us more agitated, more impatient, more on edge all the time.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Maybe. You have to participate in that though. You have a choice. So I, I, instead of blaming the device, you're probably better off blaming your usage of the device.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Hmm. Just a tool, right? I mean, I could take a gun and defend somebody, but I, I can also, you know, violate somebody else's rights with a firearm.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  You could have five hours of screen time per day and most of that being on social media, getting anxiety and frustrated and emotional about what's going on in the world and things that aren't directly impacting your world. Or you could have a 30 minute screen time and use it for looking up critical pieces of information that you need to make decisions in your daily life. Same tool, you know, different utilization of the tool, which will lead you to a different outcome.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. Good point. Do you have, do you have hard and fast rules? Or is it at this point, for technology, let's say specifically, where it's like, hey, I'm going to not be on my device before 10am? Or is it just a lifestyle at this point where there's no longer rules that you follow? It's just part of the way that you've etched it into your daily, your daily plan?

• 19:15Speaker 02

  I think it's a little bit more fluid. I actually, the, the exercise of being on social media for a long time doesn't make me feel good. It doesn't enrich my life. And honestly, after a certain amount of time, I almost, I'll say to myself like, this is gross. Like, why am I even doing this? What am I getting out of this? Uh, and I, it's cool to see my children, I have a 23 year old, a 21 year old and an 18 year old. They're kind of rallying against social media at this point. They were raised on it. They don't remember a time where the internet didn't exist or having a smartphone. And two out of the three of them don't even have social media apps on their phone. They'll download it on Saturday, use it for an hour and then take it off. So they can check in and see what's going on, but they, they are less interested in being

• 19:59Speaker 02

  connected 24/7, even though they are the ones that grew up in a world where they don't remember not having the internet, which to me is, is a good sign. It seems to be people in our generation and older who didn't have it and remember a time before it, who struggle more than those that were born into the world with it. For, I don't want to say a safe utilization, but perhaps a healthy utilization.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that's interesting. I almost wonder if that's a byproduct of looking at past eras and saying, oh, you know, I wish it was that way. I wish it was that way before. I want to live how my grandparents lived or whatever, even though we never experienced it. There's a lot of, I was going to say nostalgia, but I never experienced it. But at the same time, I think like, I would love to live like my grandparents lived. I wonder if it's some of that, or they're just burned out on it. Do you think that's a, do you think that's a trend with that generation? Or do you attribute that more to how your kids were raised and the conversations you guys are having?

• 20:58Speaker 02

  I mean, I can only speak for my kids and what they tell me about their social circle. And I'm sure it's hit or miss, but anecdotally, it's more their generation doing that. And I don't think, and again, I can't speak for anybody other than my kids. I've never heard them express a desire to live as previous generations have, but I have heard them talk about just kind of being exhausted by 24/7 connectivity and being bombarded by, they just don't like it, even though, again, that's the world that they grew into.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I really don't think that, I mean, humans evolve, but I really don't think that we are, I mean, we're not designed and we certainly haven't evolved to the point where we are constantly bombarded with the levels of information and advertising and marketing and stimulation that we currently receive. I mean, I know this weekend, for example, I'm going out to some sand dunes here in Southern Utah. I'm going to spend a couple of days in camp out there, disconnected largely, I mean, I still have my phone on me.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  But I'm, man, I'm looking forward to just being unplugged from the rest of the world.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  You can do that any day you want to.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  That's the, that's the thing, but people don't often think that they can, right? Like, or, or here's a, here's an interesting one. You'll run into somebody at a convenience store, to your point, or the grocery store or whatever. And you're like, hey, how's the week going? They're like, oh, I can't wait for the weekend. It's like, it's Monday, dude. Like, you're gonna live five days before you get to the two that you can finally live your life? Well, you, like you said, you can do that today.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's easier to pretend as if you don't have complete control over what it is that you're doing. But the reality is, especially when it comes to electronics and disconnecting, you don't have to go out to the sand dunes. Or like, I just did a five day back country hunting trip with my wife, you know, and we were at a place that had no cell communication, but I also could have the airplane mode button on my phone, you know?

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. It, I think it goes to what you're saying is like, how do you utilize the tool effectively for what you're trying to produce? Do you find that people largely know what it is that they want and what they're trying to accomplish? Or are they just sporadic, chaotic, all over the place and don't have any idea, which is why maybe we can't utilize tools as effectively as we otherwise could?

• 23:18Speaker 02

  You're gonna have to ask that question to somebody smarter than myself. I struggle just to keep my own life in check, let alone gauge other people's.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is, it is hard to, I mean, it's an interesting position because people do look to you for insight, advice, inspiration, probably. What's your relationship to that? Like, do you, do you like that? Do you not like that? There's this whole concept of, you know, the silent professional. So it's kind of interesting.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Well, there's a difference between the silent professional and the quiet professional. And those two are often confused. And again, I can only speak from the community of people that I come from. The vast majority of people that served during the era that I did read the book, Men With Green Faces, which was a very traditional book about SEAL experiences in Vietnam. Had that book not been written, I don't know if it would have inspired as many people in that generation that would have come after it. And the generation before me, actually, and probably the generation before them were inspired by that book. I think it's important to have those things that can be beacons or that can have, be a portal to people to discover things they may not know anything else about.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  My only issue with any of those mediums is when their relationship with the truth starts to go awry. You know, people's earned experiences are theirs to do with whatever they want to. So if people want to write a book, I don't care, write a book. People want to host a podcast, host a podcast, I don't care. You earned your experiences, but all I would ask is that you tell the truth. I think it's when people get off the rails with that where things start to get into trouble. And we need people who still want to do those very difficult and dangerous jobs. I believe that the vast majority of people out there are a good representation of what that can be and what it can do to your life. And I'm glad that it has those touchpoints, you know?

• 25:12Speaker 02

  And you can be quiet about the things that are sensitive without being silent and saying nothing. And perhaps people who would have been amazing at fill in the blank job, never hear about it. I mean, there's pros and cons to both, for sure.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Right. So what I'm hearing you say is being quiet is a level of discernment about when and what ought to be shared at certain times. Is that what you're saying?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  That and how you do it as well. I mean, you don't need to be egotistical in nature. You don't need to be braggadocious. You don't have to, you don't have to layer 15% of BS on top of the truth. I mean, the reality is enough, what people do is enough. I mean, this is the issue that Tim Kennedy got himself into. He had an amazing, fantastic career and layered what began with 1% of BS on top of that, which then I'm not going to put an overall quantification of what it ended up being. But at the end of the day, it's like, dude, your resume is unbelievable. You didn't need to do any of that. But by doing that, look at what it did, not only to your legacy at this point, but the struggles you're going to have in the future. All you had to do was tell the truth, man. Like, what you did was enough.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  It was more than the vast majority of people on earth will ever do.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  And that's what you're referring to is, as the relationship with truth, once it starts to become fabrication and lies and embellishments. Well, not only that, it also, not only does it undermine a person's own legacy, but it also, I mean, I'm, look, I'm not responsible for other people, but I am responsible for, like you said, telling the truth. And when you don't and you undermine it, it paint, it tarnishes not only your own reputation, but the way people perceive what they might've actually pursued. But it undermined all of that and it made it harder for those people that you say you're trying to serve.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no upside to not telling the truth. And for people out there, you may be getting away with it right now, but give it enough time and the roosters are going to come home on that one. And like, you're just not going to escape it with enough time.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I like what you said, though, your resume, in, in his case, yeah, obviously, has done some amazing things, but all of it got undermined.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  By himself, by nobody other than himself. And that's, I mean, again, my worst enemy is always going to be myself, you know? And his apparently is his as well. And I think that's probably a pretty common theme.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  You talk a little bit about that, quite a bit about that in the book, is as far as just taking responsibility, taking ownership of, of your life and not putting it on other people. Why do you think people struggle to do that? Is it, is it ego? Is it a risk of, of feeling stupid in the eyes of other people? Why, why do we do that?

• 28:09Speaker 02

  Because it sucks. I mean, it's not fun to sit there, especially publicly or in front of your family or a group of your peers and say, this is who I want to be and this is who I am currently. And I tried to do this and I fell short. I mean, I get it, it's not fun to do, but it's where the actual growth occurs. I mean, I don't think that one's that hard to answer. It's if, you know, falling short of who you want to be, especially publicly, just isn't fun. So I think a lot of people try to avoid that. I don't think it's much deeper than that.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  Guys, I'm gonna step away real quick. Andy said something in this conversation that struck with, that stuck with me. Most of us are our own worst enemy when it comes to asking for help. You know, nobody's making you feel foolish for not having it all figured out. I, I have not really run across that, but you're doing that to yourself. And while you stay quiet, your health and your marriage and your business and your relationship with your kids stay exactly where they are, or even worse, fall behind. And that's why I built the Iron Council 10 years ago. Now, this is one of the original brotherhoods that helped shape this whole men's movement. But this is a brotherhood of men who are doing more than talking about being better men. We don't want to just talk and yap and sing kumbaya around the campfire.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  We're actually doing work. And when you join us, you will get a 12 week battle plan and an app to track the battle, the battle team of men who will hold you to that plan and weekly sessions every single week with me, with expert guests, with other members in the Iron Council. And you'll get monthly assignments, challenges, and years at this point, decade worth of, of resources to draw from. There's no contracts, you can leave anytime. I see things popping up all the time. Guys are putting up this membership or that membership, but we've been doing it for 10 years. We know it works. And more importantly, we know it doesn't work. I don't want you to waste my money. I don't want you to waste your money. I want you to get the most out of your and my time.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  And that's why we're all in this together. So if you are the type of man who wants to get involved in something that will actually move the needle and work to build lives, your life, your family's life, your wife, your kids, your friends, your colleagues, your coworkers, this is possible. We've done it over and over and over and over again, but you need to stop going at it alone. Check it out, orderofman.com/ironcouncil. That's orderofman.com/ironcouncil. Do that right after the podcast. For now, let's get back to it with Andy.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  I think that's true. The one that I think is pretty insidious, or even just a little a little harder to acknowledge is just asking somebody for help. Like, I had a buddy over a couple of days ago, Ian Went, he was on the podcast, and he's fit, you know, he's into fitness, he loves fitness, he loves being physically healthy, and it was amazing to me. It wasn't difficult, but I still found it challenging to say, hey, man, how can I do this thing better? And I'm amazed at how often I won't ask for insight or help, whether it's business-related or relationship-related, because I don't want to sound foolish to people I care about, people I'm influenced by.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  That goes back to what I just said a minute ago. I think for most people, they are their own worst enemy. I mean, speaking for myself, I can say that's demonstrably true. And what you just described, nobody's making you feel that way. That's you putting a stumbling block in front of yourself, which you can choose to do or not to, or go around, or go over, whatever it may be.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I've never asked somebody a question, a thoughtful question anyways, like, hey, Andy, you did this move in jujitsu, can you, can you show, I'm curious, like, how does that work? I've never asked a question like that, and somebody said, you idiot, you don't know how to do that? Everybody's always like, oh, yeah, cool, let me show you.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would just mean you're training at the wrong gym.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Totally. You're around the wrong people, right?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. That guy's an asshole. You know what I mean? That's basically what that comes down to.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. What other lessons from the book do you feel like, you know, you either had, like, you really enjoyed writing because they related to you personally, or you felt like, hey, this is an important point and topic that maybe most people get wrong? I mean, a lot of us understand that the relationship with ownership, and Jaco wrote the foreword to the book, and so there's extreme ownership. But were there other points that you just really enjoyed writing because it made sense to you, or you learned something hard along the way?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  I don't know if there was a section that I enjoyed writing more than the others.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Well, writing.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, but the section in the book that has been the most useful tool for me was the section about chunking and how you view time, which was the reverse engineering of talking to the BUDs students about why they were quitting. And for the audience who may not be aware, the attrition rate at BUDs is 75 to sometimes 90%, depending on the month that the training is occurring. And these kids, which is mostly what they are, I say that looking back at myself, too. I mean, I can't even fathom what the instructors must have looked at our class and just been like, wow, this is the end of our community.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  It's

• 33:35Speaker 02

  spending time with the students, when I went back as an instructor 10 years after being there as a student, was fascinating, because if people quit in your class, you really don't see them again, because your training day continues. And then, honestly, they're kind of thrown to the woodchipper of the big navy. They have to sign some paperwork, but they stop training immediately. They're pulled from the training evolution, they clear their stuff out of the barracks of the class that's currently in the curriculum. And you just, you don't see them. But as an instructor, you get to spend a good amount of time with them in that moment, right after they quit, or in the days right afterwards. And I always tried to be extremely respectful, because they were in a heightened emotional state, for sure. And the number one emotion that the vast majority would tell me is, they regretted the decision that they had made. And so that, to me, is like, okay, well, you know, let's,

• 34:20Speaker 02

  how did you get there? What happened? And you have to take a few things off the table, because there's a few other reasons why people quit. One of them is just life happens. People will get notification, like, hey, a family member died, or a family member has a terminal disease, or whatever. It's like, dude, get out of here, go take care of that, the training pipeline will be here for you when you come back. Like, just go, go live your life. Injuries are another one, where they've been hurt more than once, you only get one injury roll in training, so if you get a second one, you're going to get removed. So you have to take those out of the equation, because although sometimes when the life happens, people quit, or oftentimes when they do, I'm not going to put that into the category as somebody else who just decided they couldn't do it anymore. That person literally just had to go take care of life. Which, like I said, come back as many times as you want to. People

• 35:04Speaker 02

  don't realize you can actually do that. And some of the most recognizable famous seals have gone through and didn't make it through on their first time. And I know ones who, I mean, I know Medal of Honor recipient, Mike Monsoir, who jumped on a grenade and saved four people's life. He did not, he quit in hell week, the first time he was in training. And his unwillingness to not give up and to come back ended up costing him his own life years later, but it saved the lives of four others. And I know people who have gone through three times. But again, point of all that is, you have to take those people off the equation, because those are kind of anomalies, and it's not what I was interested in. I was interested in the kids who said, this is all I've ever wanted to do in my life, I'm never going to give up, there's nothing that you can make me do as an instructor that would cause me to quit. And then next thing you know, you see their helmet under

• 35:47Speaker 02

  the bell. It's like, dude, what happened, man? And they all really described the same thing. They got frustrated and overwhelmed in a moment, and they made a decision that they regretted. And what got them there is all that they could focus on was where they were in training and how much farther they had to go. That's all they could see, was the distance that they had to travel before they achieved their goal. And then you talk to the people who are bomb-proof, and they're doing the exact opposite of that. They don't even know where they are in the journey. They know they're on a journey, but they just focus on the next step. And if you think about it, that headspace, not counting your steps, not keeping track of the distance, I mean, lift your head up every once in a while to make sure you're still on the path, but then like, get yourself right back down

• 36:30Speaker 02

  and look at the next step. It doesn't really matter how many steps you take, because as long as you keep putting one foot in front of the other, regardless of the duration or distance of your journey, you're going to get there. And those students, you can't make quit. It's just they, you can't get them, at my job as an instructor was to apply the curriculum, and then facilitate a headspace where people would start to doubt themselves, and ask themselves questions like, how long can I be this cold? How long can I be this tired? And of course, we wouldn't tell them how long it was going to be, because there's a huge difference mentally between showing up with an instructor, and he says, hey, we're going to run for four miles, keep up. And the same instructor showing up, knowing that the instructor knows you're going to run four miles, but he says, hey, we're going

• 37:12Speaker 02

  to run until I'm tired, and you better keep up. There's such a different emotional state there between those two people and what they are expecting. The latter is way harder, because you don't know how to gauge your effort. You don't know how long it's going to be.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  It's hard to plan for something like that. Like, how do you play a football game if you don't know how many quarters there are? It's like, I don't, do I conserve energy? Do I not conserve energy? What do I do here?

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Play at a time. It's the same thing in BUDs, right? It's a play at a time, it's an interaction at a time. So the students, what they, what they almost all described was, they found themselves in that headspace, and they were cold, or tired, or, you know, hungry, or not, whatever it is, like, whatever physical thing was happening. And they convinced themselves they couldn't do it for as long as they thought they were going to be asked to do it for. But the reality is, nobody told them how long they were going to do it for. So they became their own worst enemy, and they quit. So I think you can reverse engineer that. And that chunking concept, which isn't mine, I've heard, other people have described it as horizon shifting. So you set a shallow horizon, you get to it, and then you shift your horizon on and on and on. And there's no right or wrong answer

• 38:17Speaker 02

  to the size of the goal, or the, the distance of the step. It's whatever you can tolerate. And I need to be clear with the audience, it doesn't make things easier, it just makes them more digestible. It allows you to wrap your head around it, and not become overwhelmed by the macro, because you're living in the micro. That's how I've accomplished everything that I've ever done in my life. It's literally the most impactful tool that I've ever used.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  So chunking is basically, you know, let's use writing a book, for example. It's like, okay, I'm not going to worry about hitting the New York Times Bestseller list, I'm not going to worry about 100,000 words, or whatever. I'm going to worry about writing this segment today, and that's all I'm going to worry about. And tomorrow, I can worry about writing the next segment.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or like, I need to, for me, it was easy. I started writing the book in the 2024 election cycle, and the publisher was like, hey, unless your book is political, we're not going to put this out this year. And I said, okay, that's cool. So I didn't have a very strict timeline associated with it. So I was on my own to write as much as I wanted to, which I really enjoyed the process. Some days I would write 5,000 words, some days I would write zero. I took a couple of weeks off in between, and I wrote when I wanted to. Because I was able to do that, it probably would have been a different process, had I had a, like, a guillotine timeline waiting three months from then. But all right, I mean, if I sat down and I felt like I could express what I wanted to, and get it from my head to my fingers, then great. And if I didn't, I didn't worry about it, you

• 39:45Speaker 02

  know? One day at a time. Yeah. One, you know, flashing cursor at a time.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  I mean, that's, I remember when I wrote Sovereignty, I wanted to write it fast, because I knew if I, if I did what you said you did, it would be, it would be harder for me, I think. And so I just committed, I'm going to write 1,000 words per day. And I did, I wrote 1,000 words per day. And sometimes I kept 100, and sometimes I kept all 1,000. But it wasn't like, I'm going to hit this deadline, I'm going to do this thing. It was, no, I'm, 1,000 words a day. Anybody can do that, you can do that. And that seemed to work for me, which is kind of the concept of chunking, it sounds like.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Well, and people hear that, and for them, that might seem insurmountable. It's like, cool, do 250, you know, or 200.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  Whatever works for you.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't matter. That's the cool thing about it, is it's not prescriptive. You can take the concept, and you can take, you know, how do you eat an elephant or a whale? It's one bite at a time, but I'm not here to tell you how much you should shove in your mouth.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Right. I'm curious, I want to go back to these, these young, young men who, who quit, rang the bell, so to speak. I have always been kind of curious, you know, following them, five, 10, 20 years later, like, if that would be a regret for that long, or if they have to, I mean, they'd have to navigate that decision somehow. I almost wonder, like, what, what, what do people tell themselves to justify, let's just call it, underperformance, doing something less than they know they're capable of?

• 41:16Speaker 02

  I've run into some of them, so I can actually answer that question for at least the ones that I ran into. I've probably run into about a dozen that I put through training and that quit while I was there. Every single one of them described a haunting and regretful feeling about that decision.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  For the entirety of like 10 years, 12 years, whatever.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  The whole time. We're talking two decades later at this point. Yeah, the whole time, which probably isn't healthy. You might want to go talk to somebody and work your way through that. But I get it. I mean, it's the probably it's I would say it's the number one thing I don't want to have on my own deathbed is to sit there and be consumed with regret on things I wish I had said or done or spent time with. Yeah, I can't think of anything worse.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  How do you know or begin to evaluate? Because a lot of people talk about quitting, right? And that's what we're talking about now. And then you have this, and I don't care what you call it, but some people call it quitting. And then there's the idea of the concept of pivoting. How do you know that maybe I should ring the bell? Because this is not for me. And that's that could legitimately be the case. Or no, I'm just being weak.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  I don't think anybody can tell you that from the outside. That's going to be an internal decision. I mean, I wish I could. People used to ask me all the time, hey, do you think my kid could make it through butts? And the only honest answer is I have absolutely no idea. You cannot look at somebody and determine that from the outside. If they let the instructors bet on the students, like who is going to make it through and who wasn't, they'd be broke. I mean, I was I was six foot, 150 pounds. The day I started training. There's no way that somebody was pushing all their chips in like, yep, Andy's gonna make it through. We had we had division one college athletes, you know, we had guys who were probably lighter than me. We had a like a legit division

• 43:08Speaker 02

  one long distance running star. There was a dude who played football, he looked like he was carved out of marble. And then there was most of the rest of us who looked, I mean, really, really underwhelming, super young. But if I think back on my class, none of those people that were anomalies on either side made it through. Like the D1 guy was one of the first guys to go. The track and field star quit on a swim. One of the first ones, you know, because he finally got challenged with something that he wasn't good at. And that guy had been catered to his entire life. And, you know, and had a team of coaches behind him for that one specific activity. But in the end of the day, it wasn't any of those outliers. It was just super average people that

• 43:49Speaker 02

  wouldn't give up. And you there are people who get into that pipeline, and the job is not going to be right for them. But you can't tell that looking at them. That's so I can't answer your question. That's an internal one. And I think that's a real tough conversation for people to have because it's way easier to tell to yourself, I need to pivot. This may not be right for me as opposed to just saying, Hey, man, I just didn't have what it takes. I quit, you know, and being honest with yourself and just moving on from that. It's okay. It's not it's not a job that everybody should do.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  Clearly. I mean, it's one of probably the rarest jobs in the world, quite frankly. So

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, not in a good way. You know what I mean? Like, there's pros and cons to the job, probably more cons to the job than pros. It's a very weird job. And depending on the time that you serve and the experiences that you have, it can definitely change the trajectory of your life. And if you let it, it can destroy your life.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I imagine that's the case. You know, it's interesting when you were talking about the D1 athletes and the superstar track athlete and all of that. It's almost the the plight of the naturally talented, where things just come easy. And then the minute they get challenged in any difficult way. I mean, I look at my son. So my son just graduated. He's playing college lacrosse now. And at the risk of, you know, offending him, like, he's not a suit. He was not born a superstar athlete. Same. But the kid, he just works his tail off. I mean, he goes and throws a ball, a rubber ball with his stick at the wall, every day, 400 times a day. That like,

• 45:28Speaker 00

  doesn't miss. And that's the kind of thing that I see. And I'm like, Oh, that is what made up for any lack of talent relative to these kids who come out of the womb, just ready to play ball.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  There's not that many of those kids. I mean, there's very, there's one Michael Jordan and a bunch of other people who had to grind their ass up to make up for the deficiencies that we all have in physical abilities. I know it's everybody wants to be Michael Jordan. Sorry.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, there's only one. And in every sport has that. And there's more than one person that's that physically gifted. But the vast majority do it through hard work, not natural talent. And even those people that do have natural talent, I mean, look at how hard Jordan worked as well, too. It wasn't just that. Totally. He was grinding.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  What do you so when you when you talk about being, you know, average, so to speak, in going through training? What is it? What can you attribute you being able to make it through the training and have a successful career in that very rare and not not so great industry like you talk about?

• 46:32Speaker 02

  I mean, one thing that I think helped, and I don't know if this is necessarily a good idea, but I didn't have a plan B. I didn't have anything else that I was considering doing. Which I would say the con to having a plan B could potentially be depending on how enticing it is, you could really talk yourself into it, depending on how bad things are going for you in the moment. So I don't think it's bad to have a plan B. But if it's a 50 50 toss up between wanting to do two things, you get to those low moments where the instructors are trying to facilitate you questioning yourself, you might have some interesting conversations with yourself. I got introduced to the idea of breaking things up like complex tasks or long tasks into short duration stuff when I was young, working for my dad. And that advice was reinforced to me by

• 47:17Speaker 02

  other students in training. So just kind of adopting that and being able to shut out everything other than the moment you're in and just move on. Those were, I mean, honestly, I'm not telling in cheek when I say I didn't have anything else to do. That's literally the only thing that I had ever wanted to do. And to me, the juice was worth the squeeze. So you compare that or combine that with the the mental approach there. And what I didn't realize at the time is I was exceptionally lucky not to get injured. I didn't realize the injury rate until I went back as an instructor. I was able to make it through, straight through on my first try, which is not anomalous. But there's a lot of people that get rolled one class or two for either a physical issue or a medical issue. And unfortunately, that didn't happen to me. So.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  What are the what are the typical injuries? Is it like stress fractures, broken bones, tears, that sort of thing?

• 48:05Speaker 02

  It's that overuse.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Normally run into?

• 48:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Overuse injuries, it's impact stuff. The obstacle course is a wood chipper. People fall off stuff, you know, so hands, ankles, arms and legs for when you know, when they reach out to try to brace themselves when they're falling. Overuse from the running shin splints. I mean, and the thing is, too, it's not it's not that I was uninjured going through training. You're always nursing something. I mean, the training pipeline just sucks. Yeah, it's designed to be like that. So everybody like, you know, vitamin I, and by that, I mean, the old Ibuprofen 800, which is unhealthy, but is the only dosage that the military seems to give you. And they give you an entire sandwich bag full of them. You know, vitamin I helps from

• 48:46Speaker 02

  time to time. It's not medical advice, anybody out there listening. But overuse, overuse, and then the ballistic stuff. And honestly, it's from falling and accidents.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I've had quite a few SEALs on and other special operators. And it's interesting to hear like, what just the amount of just wear and tear on the body is just incredible. And it's incredible, too, what the body can handle and also what the body can come back from, which is pretty amazing.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  When you when you separated from service, what was that like? Because I know, I mean, every every person who listens to this has an identity, right? We wrap up our identity in our job or our marital status, or whether or not we're fathers, or what we do for work, or what our activities and hobbies are. What was that like for you leaving something that, by all accounts, I think I can say that you really enjoyed and you found an immense value in? What was that like for you?

• 49:48Speaker 02

  I think my off ramp was a little bit easier. One, I knew that it was coming. They were they pushed me towards the medical retirement process, which is a lot of appointments and paperwork up front. But you kind of, I mean, working with the person that you submitted to, they're not the person that rates their record, but they can look at it and say, yeah, based off of what I have seen and results on records like this, you could probably expect this outcome. So I knew I was probably going to be medically retired, but that whole process took over a year to go from all the really the paper. Yeah. But well, it's the you have to go through the all of the appointments. And so one of them might be this month. And the next one, the specialist you need to see might be in two months. So you get all that stuff done. You actually do all of your VA appointments up front. You submit the paperwork. I think I got the results back in like six to eight months. So I point being, I knew that it was coming. I knew that there was

• 50:33Speaker 02

  an off ramp. And also, I had started working for CrossFit in my off time for years before that. So economically, I knew how I was yeah, I knew how I was going to pay my bills. So the combination of those two things. It was sad, for sure. Like, I was bummed that that wasn't what I was gonna well, that wasn't what I was going to do anymore. But I always reminded myself, there's a difference between what you do and who you are. You know, I mean, it's and I always knew that even if you do 40 years, you know, at some point, you have to hang the uniform up. So you might want to have a an identity and a life outside of that particular job. So I focused on that and planned because I had a great boss, too. He's like, Listen, we already brought your replacement in. So there's actually nothing for you to do. So just come in, check in, do make sure you do all your admin work, stay in touch with me, and then start setting up what's going

• 51:17Speaker 02

  to be next for you, which was great. You know, he gave me the time and the ability to really create parallel tracks. And then by the time I needed to go from one to the other, you know, it was just a short, small adjustment of the wheel.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's interesting. I mean, just to have that overlapping. And it's funny because you talked about not having a plan B. But in that case, where you knew plan A was not going to work out, you started to implement that plan B and have a strategy for how do I overlap these two things? So there's no, there's no gap where I'm like, what the hell am I doing? I don't know what I'm going to do with my life or my time or who I am.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  The gap is where people struggle. And right. Again, I'm not here to tell anybody how to live their life. But for military members, people who are going to do 20 years, I try to tell them, you know, give yourself at least 12 months, but optimally 24 before you get out to not ignore your military duties, but just start thinking about what you're going to do next, and explore stuff to figure out what you like.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  What what angles have you taken in life post post-service that you've explored that you did not expect or anticipate your life to take you towards?

• 52:23Speaker 02

  The corporate flying, I never thought I would have gotten into that. And then being able to do part 135 aviation, which is charter flying on demand flying. So flying jets kind of all over the world, all over the US to the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, Hawaii, Canada, Mexico, like all over the place. I never thought I would, I would have never guessed I would have dipped my toes into aviation. That was kind of just taking an unforeseen path that presented itself in front of me with the support of an organization behind me. That's probably the biggest one.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  What did that look like? Was that something that you thought, oh, this would be cool? I'll give it a try? Or was there a path outlined for you? Like, what did that, what did that path actually look like? Because I think people are presented with all sorts of opportunities, and they could be life altering if we said yes to just like one small step.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  So I started flying after I got out of the military, just because there I had a couple of months off in between when I checked into the training command before we picked up a class. And then years later, the founder of CrossFit called me. He was like, hey, you have your pilot's license, right? I was like, yeah, I didn't even remember that I told him that I did. He was driving like this triangle of death between Watsonville Prescott and San Diego, which is about eight hours per leg. And he was like, okay, he's like, I'm tired of doing this. We're getting an airplane. You're going to be the pilot. I'm sending you a company credit card. Start training again. And I only had my private pilot's license at the time. And so then I worked my way all through the licenses. But when I was doing my instrument rating, the check airman or DPE designated pilot examiner, who was

• 53:56Speaker 02

  administering my instrument rating test, they have to have an observer from time to time as well, from the FAA to make sure that they are doing their job well, right? Like there is no top of the pyramid. Everybody's got a boss that's going to come and check them out to make sure they're, well, this guy was super cool. He was a previous Air Force dude. His name was Scott. He sat in on that. And where I parked the plane was like two blocks from the FISDO or the Flight Standards District Office for the FAA. And a lot of people who fly or they don't want to interface with the FAA, I loved it. I would go see those guys all the time. And I became really good friends with Scott. Like, if I had a question, I'd just go ask the FAA. Like, I don't care. Like, you guys are the ones I'm going to end up talking to if I do this wrong and get in trouble anyway. I'm going to go to the horse's mouth. You guys tell me how to do this or what my question, it was great. And I recommend that all pilots interface with the FAA in that way. If you

• 54:41Speaker 02

  have the ability to do so, don't make them like this monster, you know, they would the, you know, the grim reaper with the scythe just waiting to cut your head off, which they will, if you go outside of the the boundaries of that, but just have a relationship with them. He was also the check airman for a charter company, and they were looking for a right seat pilot in a Gulfstream G4. He was the one who presented me that opportunity because of the relationship we had developed, and the relationship he had at that charter company. So that was the unknown variable that was presented to me that I could have never guessed was going to happen. And it was at a time of my life, I was like, screw it. Yeah, well, give it a try. And you know, the next thing you know, you're flying jets kind of all over the world. It was awesome.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  That's interesting. When you say that, I mean, what stands out to me is the concept of networking. And it is amazing how often I see people. And look, I'm guilty of it too, or maybe you're not in the mood, or with the FFA thing, FAA thing. It was just that people thought they were, they were the bad guy. They were the enemy. So we're not going to go like across, across party lines and converse.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  They're the punitive agency. If you mess up, right? Like, they write all the rules. So it's like, it's the same way a lot of people view cops, highway patrol, whatever it is. Like, they didn't write the rules, but they're there to enforce them. And so it's like, don't get pissed about a cop enforcing the law. The guy didn't write the laws. It's his job to enforce it. On the FAA side, some of those bastards actually wrote the laws, but it's also their job to enforce it as well, too. But it's, you know what I mean? Like, I do, I treat the cops like, I don't, I don't care if a cop pulls me over. I'm like, hey, what's going on, man? You know, you know what I mean? Like, I don't, it's, I treat everybody the same way. I don't, and I don't try to network. That's not, to me, that's not a concept that I actively try to do. I just try to treat everybody with as much respect as, I'm not a social ladder climber. And I have a small social

• 56:24Speaker 02

  circle that I'm not looking to add to in life. The more I go on, it's just been painful every time I have tried to. So to me, it's not about networking. It's just about treating people with respect.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  That's, that's a good way to frame it. I mean, I've always looked at it as networking. I know that has, for a lot of people, a negative connotation. I don't think it is because I'm looking at adding value and I'm looking to build relationships. But I definitely understand the framing on that.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  I don't want anything from people, you know, like when I interact with people, or if I have a relationship with them, I don't, I'm not looking at them to fill a puzzle piece. I don't want anything from them. I would love to enhance their life and provide something to them. But I, I do not, I'm not a handout type of person, meaning I have my handout expecting something from other people.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  Right. When you said, you said something interesting. You said that every time, I think you said every time you tried, tried to climb the wrong or the ladder, it, it ended up, you know, painful, I think is the word you used. What like, what are you referring to? Like, how has it been hard to do that for you? What's, what's gone on in the past?

• 57:30Speaker 02

  I've been burned a couple of times, especially on the business side of the house by trusting people. And my fault, you know, a lot of that was trust, but not verify. I legitimately encountered somebody who was a covert narcissist. I didn't even know what that was until after about a year and a half to two years of dealing with this person. And that was a fascinating experience in self doubt and questioning your own, it was amazing, like textbook covert narcissist. And it was amazing, the manipulative power and the mirroring effect that they were able to have. And you look back now, and you're like, man, I really miss this. I

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Mirroring as in, as in telling you what you want to hear?

• 58:11Speaker 02

  No, like your favorite things are their favorite things. Your ideas are their favorite ideas. Whatever you love, they love it even more. Can't even wait to tell you. That's the mirroring, right? It's always, they, they give you more of what they think you want. And it's intoxicating, for sure. But at the end of the day, for sure, right? Like, I'm as fallible as anybody else. I just, to me, my most valuable asset is time. And I have people in my life that I care very, very deeply about. And it's not that I'm like, walking around as a Heisman, shoving people away. I am just much, much, much more cautious now with people that I allow into my social circle.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think that makes sense. Do you think, do you, have you ever taken that to the extreme where you felt yourself like being too distant or pushing too many people too far away? Has that gone to the opposite end of the spectrum at all for you?

• 59:05Speaker 02

  I'm looking for that.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  Really?

• 59:06Speaker 02

  I'm looking for that place. No, not intentionally.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  You're like, I want to get there.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  I'm not an extrovert. You know, my wife is definitely more of an extrovert. I'm a little bit more of an introvert. I enjoy interactions with people, but it doesn't, if her and I go to a party, like a social gathering, a jujitsu one, I leave with an empty cup. She leaves with a full one. And that's not saying I don't like the people that I'm with. It's just, that's not my jam.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, I get that. And it's good to know that about yourself, too. So you can then just address it appropriately, right?

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, there's some things that, that, that fill my battery. And there's other things that empty them. For me, large social gatherings, they just, they don't fill my battery up.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. What's, what's, what's next on the horizon? I mean, you've got this, you've got the book, you're, you're, you've got, you're flying, you've got, you know, Black Rifle Coffee, you're hunting, like, you're doing all the things. What, like, what is next for you? Do you see anything where you're like, I want to pursue this? I want to travel, or I want to try this weird obscure thing? What do you think that is for you?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  We have some travel coming up just for snow sports. I'm taking my wife to Japan in early February. We've had just horrible ski years up here for like the last three or four years. And it was a bucket list for her. So I'm going to take her there. We're going to Australia for the World Cup. My dad wants to see it. It's probably the last year he'll physically be able to travel. And my sister was born in Australia in Melbourne. So we're going to go there for about 10 days. I travel for work. So to me, the allure of travel has been lost a little bit. The aviation stuff, I'll probably add another license on the helicopter side, probably a commercial license, not because I want to get paid to fly, but it's just another cool thing to dig into. And it's another chance to continue learning. And it forces you, you're like, I don't really want to do this, you know, not, not the flying aspect, but the studying and the knowledge base, which does make you

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  a better pilot, once you understand the national aerospace system and all the rules and regulations. It's kind of, to me, I don't have, the book was the last, like, big professional thing, like, okay, I got to get this done, or I want to get this done. Beyond that, I don't have a overarching professional goal for 27, other than probably refining the things that I am doing, and hopefully trying to find more efficiencies in them to recover more time to end up doing the things I want to do with the people I want to do it with.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. What was the draw with the book? I mean, because I imagine, I imagine you have been solicited for years and years and years to write your stories, tell your story, whatever. Why in 2024 is when you said you started? Why then? And what was the appeal for you personally to write the book and put it out there to people?

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Because Mike Lover tricked me into writing it. It was supposed to be, I'm joking, I'm not joking. It was, he pitched me a idea. He pitched me an idea. He said, let's write a book together. We'll pick eight or nine topics, social issues, whatever it may be. I'll speak about it on my side from the Green Bay side. You speak about it on your side from the team guy side, the Navy side. He's like, I don't know of a book like that that's ever been done. I said, okay, that sounds cool. We picked a date that we were going to get together. And we picked a few topics that we were going to write about. And we showed up at that date, and he had written absolutely nothing. So he had, though, found a book agent and this guy who makes pitch decks for books, which is visually, these incredibly really like visually rich PDF documents that I don't have the ability to

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  do. I'm not good at design. And I think actually Mike did this intentionally. I think he just wanted me to write something. And he's like, oh, yeah, I don't have anything. Whoopsies. But take what you've written and give it to this guy, which I did. He created a pitch deck. We gave it to the book agent. And she shopped it around and said, we, you know, you'll probably hear back in like six months, because for people out there who don't know this, publishers are not looking at books every single day. They kind of, they tranche them together and they'll do like once a quarter, they'll look at a bunch of them. She shopped it around. Yeah, they batch them up, which makes sense. She shopped it around. And I think within a few weeks, I got a couple of offers from a few different publishers, and it landed with St. Martin's Press. But that was the draw. It wasn't my idea. Mike legitimately tricked me into doing it,

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  and I wouldn't have continued had the book pitch guy, not the book pitch, but the, actually, I guess that's what it is. Yeah, he creates the book pitch. If the the deck he created hadn't gotten the response from the agent and the publishers, I wouldn't have continued, but it did. So I finished it off.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  I I follow you on Instagram, and it's interesting when I see you repost stories or somebody, you know, is reading their book, or they share a lesson or whatever it might be from the book. What is the, what's the most rewarding thing for you in having you do something that you really had no intention of doing initially?

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  I mean, I think the podcast falls into that category as well. I have probably at this point, two dozen emails of people that reached out that said that they didn't kill themselves because of something that they heard in the podcast, or a change of focus, or a shift in mindset from either the book or the podcast. And I can't think of anything else that is more meaningful than that.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was telling somebody the other day, I had, I had, he's now a friend, but he literally had his, a gun in his mouth, and he decided to come to an event that we were hosting, and this was probably eight years ago. And he came out and he was, he was a shell of a man compared to what he is now. And he said that if that event didn't go well, or he didn't feel like what he needed to feel like he was going to, going home to finish the job. And he came out and it transformed his life. I'm not saying I transformed his life. I, I will say that we created an environment that allowed him to make different decisions. And he started to make different decisions and then eventually found through CrossFit,

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  actually, somebody he fell in love with, asked me to go out and marry those two. So I, I got my pastoral license in the state of Louisiana to marry them. And that's the kind of stuff that is just so significant. And that goes back to what you were saying earlier about just wanting to add value to people's lives. And it's amazing what you can do when you put yourself out there in new and interesting ways.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  It's better than money. People paying you to do stuff, that's for sure.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, there's a lot of, there's a lot of motives, questionable motives, when that's your, when that's your intention, right? And I think one of the things that I admire about you, Andy, even on this, even on this call, is you can tell, like, you're just, you're being authentic, you're being honest. I asked you a couple of questions, you're like, I don't know. Most people won't do that. But that's so refreshing to hear people say that when they actually don't know or don't have an opinion about it.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't, I don't begrudge people for doing everything they can to make money. I get it. I mean, it's, it's what makes the world go around. What worries me is if you ask people what their number is, what they would be comfortable making, it's just more. That's a dangerous spot.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  Always.

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  And to me, it's not about what you make, it's about what you spend. You know, it's actually way more important to manage your output than it is to try to just keep your input growing and growing and growing, which is hard to do because there's lifestyle creep, all of those things. And I have a different relationship with money now than I did when I was younger. Like, don't get me wrong, I bought galactically stupid shit with money that had almost no, you know what I mean? Like, you're like, I can't wait to have this. Then you get it, and you're like,

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  Womp womp womp. Yep, exactly.

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  It's like gathering dust. And then you look at it, and you're like, huh. That wasn't a very good utilization of money, but I bet this next shiny thing, now to me, I, to me, my number is, I want to make enough money that I can say no, that I can do what I want to with my time, that I can go to Japan with my wife and snowboard, that I can hang out with my kids and take them to a jujitsu camp in December, like we've done for the last five years. That, to me, that's wealth. That's all I care about.

• 1:06:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's awesome, man. Well, I've really enjoyed getting to know you over the years. It's probably been, I don't know, nine years, eight, nine years, somewhere in there. And to see your evolution, to see how you, yeah, it's why, time flies, man, it's crazy. But to see your evolution, to see how you've developed, to see the amount of people that you've helped, it's inspirational to me. And I'm glad I get to call you a friend and really honored you to join me today.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, anytime.

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  Tell me, tell me where to go for the podcast, for the book, for anything else you want to direct guys to, so they can learn more about what you're up to.

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  I mean, you can probably just Google my name, just Andy Stumpf. I mean, I have a website, andystumpf.com. I figured that was probably a pretty original way to make a portal for everything. I mean, I host two podcasts. One is Cleared Hot, one is Change Agents, one is an in-person interview setting. And the other one, we, I do remote episodes with people that I work with, Ironclad, a production company, and they look for people who are change agents, people who are out there making change, or, you know, kind of trying to be the first through the door. So there's that. The book is called Drown Proof, and I'm on social platforms for some version of my name, just Andy Stumpf.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll sync everything up. Guys know where to find you. And, and guys, I would highly encourage that you do, because there's a lot of good information. And like I said, I appreciate you coming on today, man.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me.

• 1:08:09Speaker 00

  Gentlemen, there you go, Mr. Andy Stumpf. I've had him on the podcast multiple times. I think this is a three-peat at this point. And every time, get a ton from this guy. We've been able to train together and laugh together and shoot archery together. And it's been really, really an honor to get to know Andy, an incredible human being doing incredible things. So I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Make sure to check out a copy of his book, Drown Proof. Head to the library, head to Amazon, go to Barnes & Noble, I don't really care. Wherever you get your books, go check it out, learn, apply, most importantly, and become a better man. And again, guys, that's all about what we're doing, is becoming better men. So if you want to do that at a deeper level, a more committed level, a more engaged level, and connect with other men who are doing the same thing, check out

• 1:08:54Speaker 00

  The Iron Council. We're closing it down here shortly at the end of the month. So get on it quick, orderofman.com/ironcouncil. All right, guys, we will be back for my Ask Me Anything with Kip Sorenson tomorrow. But until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.