Evy Poumpouras ON: How To Instantly Read People, Create Connections & Influence People

Evy Poumpouras speaks to Jay Shetty about her commitment to learning how to read people and react in tense moments has not only saved her life, but earned her the honor of doing security for Presidents Bill Clinton, Barack and Michelle Obama, and both George Bushs'. Want tips on how to read people’s body language or pick up on when someone’s lying, from a former secret service agent? Poumpouras shares spy tips that come in handy for any walk of life! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 2:16Jay Shetty?

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• 3:00Jay Shetty?

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• 3:09Speaker 01

  Now, I use interviewing and interrogation interchangeably because in the world I came from, truly, it's the same thing. It's a conversation, whether it's me wanting a confession or admission or information on the case, or even doing a business deal, you know, and I work in television and negotiating terms. I make sure to hear what that other person is saying before I say, hey, let me tell you what I want. Because also when I hear that, I'm thinking, okay, this is what's important to them. I can bend on this because I'm not worried about this so much, but this is what's important to me. So I'll bend here, but I won't bend here. And so you can come in in a more meaningful way and connect with people.

• 3:53Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you who are obsessed with learning about your mindset, learning about human behavior, and learning how to make powerful decisions. Now, one of the things that I love about recording the podcast is I get introduced to fascinating people, people that I may not have heard of before, people who've had experiences that I can't even imagine, people who've lived lives that are so extraordinary. And today's guest is exactly one of those people. Now, I can't tell you how much I've been looking forward to this interview. And today's guest is none other than Evy Pomporous. Now, she is a former Secret Service Special Agent.

• 4:35Jay Shetty?

  She was part of the protective details for President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama, as well as former Presidents George Bushs, William J. Clinton, and George H. Bush. She worked complex criminal investigations and undercover operations, executed search and arrest warrants, and investigated both violent and financial crimes. Evy currently can be seen as an assessor on the Bravo series Spy Games. If you've not seen it, check it out. Now, today I'm excited to talk to Evy about her amazing new book called Becoming Bulletproof: Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live Fiercely. And inside she shares the lessons from protecting presidents,

• 5:19Jay Shetty?

  as well as insights and skills from the oldest and most elite security force in the world to help you prepare for stressful situations, instantly read people, and really make a difference in your life. Evy holds a Master of Science from Columbia University in Journalism, a Master of Arts in Forensic Psychology from Agassi University, and a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science and International Affairs from Hofstra University. And as you can see, super academic, super practical, and someone who literally in two seconds has made me realize she's also just really nice and kind. Evy Pomporous, Evy, thank you for being here.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Hi Jay, thanks so much for having me.

• 6:00Jay Shetty?

  You are such an accomplished, incredible individual that the life that you've lived just absolutely fascinates me. I don't even know how, where to begin, to be honest, and that's not usually me. I usually know exactly where to start. But also what I love about it, Evy, is, and we've never met before, and I really hope that one day we do get to meet, but even just interacting with you now, I'm like, how has this person lived in such a tough...

• 6:27Jay Shetty?

  Stressful job, yet your energy is so sweet and kind and soft and loving. Like, tell us about that, just to start it off with. How does that work?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  I think that people feel that there's only one version of themselves. Like, you're just one thing. And it's not true. Like, there's different versions of us, and I learned this over time. Because I would hear people say, "I'm just gonna be myself," and I always wonder, like, what is myself? And I really didn't understand this. It was when I became a polygraph examiner, I became an interrogator for the US Secret Service. And then, I would interview so many people, Jay, like, hundreds of people would come through the door. And I learned that I couldn't be one thing with everybody. And that people respond to different things and need different things from you. And so, some people needed a more sensitive version of me.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Sometimes, I needed to bring out a more authoritative version of me. But you assess people and you realize, all right, who's my audience? And what's gonna resonate best with this audience? But it's still authentic, it's still me. And I found that when I started to do this, I began doing this at work, but then I began doing it in my relationships. And I realized that it actually strengthened my relationships and strengthened my communication skills with people, because I was really paying attention to people and becoming in tune to them. So if I had somebody who was soft-spoken and shy, I would say, "Okay, this is not a person that Secret Service, Evy, would really need to be with

• 8:01Speaker 01

  or to be that type of person." But at the same time, like, you can still be strong and you can still be assertive, and you don't have to be a jerk about it. You know, you can still have grace and kindness and connect with people. And there's actually, part of my studies, when I studied interviewing and interrogation, and it's really about connecting with people. People, you're interrogating, and you think of the TV stuff, and it's not like that at all. But one of the things I was taught is that the most successful interviewers, like, those people that would get confessions or admissions or information from people, they were the ones that were perceived to be competent and then warm.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  So being fear-based, making people fearful of you, intimidating people, being cold, thinking that that is gonna get people to listen to you more, it actually backfires on you.

• 8:59Jay Shetty?

  You're already blowing my mind. What a great answer, right? I couldn't agree with you more. And I love what you said about how it can still be authentic, even if you're adapting, because I think people feel like if you're using techniques, then how can you be, you know, how can you care? But if you're doing it from a place of compassion and a place of connection and a place of wanting to understand, then that's what brings the authenticity. Am I right? Does that make sense?

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does, because, but that's, but that's what drives me. I think, you know, I mean, think of it this way. You ever go to a meeting or have a conversation with someone? And it's just bumping heads confrontationally. You're thinking, why did that happen that way? It's because both people are trying to shove their ideas and their perceptions almost like down the other person's throat, and it doesn't, it doesn't resonate. One of the things I've found, like, the best interviewers were the people that that made people feel understood. Like, usually, we just wanna feel understood, and some people wanna feel understood, and they're very aggressive about it. Like, you'll have someone maybe just yell and scream and, you know, give you their opinion on something. But what they're really telling you is like,

• 10:09Speaker 01

  "I'm not being heard." And so I'm screaming and I'm yelling because I wanna feel heard. And once people feel heard, and if you cannot take it personally and think, you know, "How dare you talk to me this way?" If you can put your ego aside, and ego's a big sabotager, but if you can put that aside and just understand, "This doesn't have to do with me. This has to do with this person." "They're not feeling heard by me, or by anybody. So let me kind of sit back, be quiet, and listen, and let that resonate with them." And then, after that's done, you know, come back in a more meaningful way. I can't tell you how many times I I sit in the interview room and people would just be angry. They're angry that they're there. They're angry that they're talking to a special agent. They're angry that they're talking to me.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  They're just angry. And rather than bump heads and try to put them in their place, because truly, that would be my ego doing it, I'll say like, "All right, let me just sit back. Let me let them vent, honestly." And then once that was done and the steam came out and you know they're exhausted too. Then I could really come in in a meaningful way and now they've also told me what's resonating with them, what they're upset about. And when I speak to them, I can make sure that I I'm thoughtful in my conversation. Rather than coming in blind and just pulling things out of nowhere and then saying the wrong thing. So. Look, could you use this to manipulate power people like, you know, yes, you could, but. It's gonna backfire on you because people can read through that nonsense eventually.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  But if you use it in a way to connect with people and you can use compassion or empathy, I use empathy so much. It draws information out of people because when you empathize with people, you build rapport and they trust you. And the more people trust you, the more they open up. And that is truly, that's interrogation that the best interrogator, so to speak. And I use interviewing and interrogation interchangeably because in the world I came from, truly it's the same thing. It's a conversation. With people, but when you can, when you can do that, everybody opens up to you and you get what you want, whether it's. Me wanting a confession or admission or information on the case. Or even doing a business deal, you know, and I work in television and negotiating terms that.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I make sure to hear what that other person is saying before I say, hey, let me tell you what I want. Because also when I hear that, I'm thinking, okay, this is what's important to them. I can bend on this because I'm not worried about this so much, but this is what's what's important to me. So I'll bend here. But I won't bend here. And so you can come in in a more meaningful way and connect with people.

• 12:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Do you, do you ever find that people in your personal life, because they know your skills and know what you are, they're like always feeling a bit like. Oh, no, Evy can tell what I'm really thinking. Like, do you find that? People kind of sometimes like put their guard up when they're around you because they they feel like, oh, Evy can see right through me?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting. Some people will say that. Actually, let me say this. My family, no. They just do whatever they want to me. I'll just put that out there. I don't know why it is, but we can have like degrees and expertise, but when it comes to family, none of that matters.

• 13:16Jay Shetty?

  It's true. It's true. Very good point.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  I don't want to hear it.

• 13:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  But I think it's about connecting with people and I don't, but it's genuine, you know, I genuinely listen to people because I I want to know what they think. I care about what they think. And so when it comes from an authentic place, I don't think people see that. But when it looks like manufactured, when it looks like and it feels like someone's selling you something, you've probably had that. We've all had that where you feel like somebody, all right, this person's trying to sell me really hard. And if something's truthful and genuine, you don't have to sell so hard. You know, the truth is, we used to have this, the saying in the Secret Service, the truth is simple. It's simple. You don't have to work so hard. But so when somebody's really working hard to sell you something, that's when your red flags are up.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  That's when you're kind of like, why is this person working so hard? Something's not right.

• 14:15Jay Shetty?

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• 15:45Jay Shetty?

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• 16:28Jay Shetty?

  Tell me how you even get to the point, before we dive into the book, and I'm really excited for everyone who's just tuning in and watching or listening right now. We are talking about Evy's new book called Becoming Bulletproof, which is all about protecting yourself, reading people, influencing situations and living fearlessly. We're going to put the link in the comments section, so you'll be able to buy the book if you're loving this conversation. So Evy, before we even dive into the book, I just want to talk a bit about how do you even get there? Like, how do you even become the role that you became? Like, what does that process take? What did you want to do growing up? And how did you find yourself, you know, becoming such a successful secret agent? Tell us about that journey and that process.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I will tell you one thing. Work, work.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  And more work.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Truly, like I. My parents are immigrants. They came from Greece. And, you know, they were very poor. They grew up in poverty in Greece. My parents were very, very poor. And they came to the United States. And we lived in New York City. I was born in Harlem, Washington Heights area, which was a very high crime, very poor area. And Greek was actually my first language. I learned English in school. And we. I think we grew up around crime, a lot of crime, a lot of drugs. I saw the difficulties my family faced as immigrants, you know, they had. Had very heavy accents. You know, even my dad, you know, I would see the hardships he would go through.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  In fact, when he came to America, he couldn't find a job. Nobody wanted to hire him. He had like a really thick accent. You know, I'm quite fair, but he was quite tanned, very dark, very ethnic looking and. He, he, they went through such hardship. But in his first job, actually in America. He, he finally had gone through so many places. I remember nobody would give him a job and the last place he went to was a donut shop, a coffee shop in Harlem. And he went in there, he's like. Just, I'll work for free. Cause the guy was trying to, didn't want to give him work. And he's like, I'll work for free. I'll work for food. He's like, let me just get experience here. So at least I can go somewhere else and say, hey, I have experience working. In a donut shop, selling coffees or he's like, I'll take your trash. I'll do whatever.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  And my first, my father's first job in America was working for free. He worked for free. And I think it was after a few weeks that the man actually hired him. And so I think growing up. With that and seeing the hardship they went through. I was like. I.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna go through that. And I wanna make a better life for them. And I was like, you know, and I watch, you know, it sounds silly, but we watch a lot of TV because we couldn't, we couldn't really play outside that much. And I would see on TV these people doing extraordinary things and extraordinary roles. And I, I went to Greek school. I went to a Greek American school. And I learned about Greek mythology and heroes. And I was so inspired by it, you know, like when you're a kid, you're like, when I grow up, I wanna be this. And I was inspired by courage and by bravery. And having grown up, you know, we'd been victims of crime and dealt with so many hardships. I was like, I am not gonna grow up afraid. I'm not gonna grow up weak.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  I'm gonna protect my family, you know, I'm gonna do well so I can help take care of them. And I think just intuitively, it led me into this career because I knew nothing about law enforcement. Jay, I didn't even like police. They would pull me over when I was a teenager and I was like the biggest brat. I, I, I knew nothing about that world, but I knew I wanted to serve people and help people. And I, I created this drive where I was just like, work, work hard, work hard, work hard. And even in college, you know, I got an internship working for a congresswoman. I'll never forget Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy. And I worked for her for two years for free, for free.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  And everybody's like, you're crazy, you're wasting your time. And I was like, no. I'm learning, I'm connecting with people that I would never, Jay, I would never connect to these people. I had no network, I had no access. All I knew was my, my parents immigrant community. And no college education. I don't even think my mom finished high school, actually, now that I'm talking, or my dad. And I was just like, I have a choice and I have to drive myself.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  And I think just one thing led to another. I didn't grow up with this idea. When I grew up, I'm gonna be a Secret Service agent. I had no idea what that was. Zero. And but I also was of the mindset like, why not? Like, why, why can't I? Why can't I help my family and other people in a meaningful way? And I think when you're in the struggle and you see other people struggle. And I think just authentically, I wanted to, to help myself, help my family. And first I started in the, I went into the New York City Police Department. I applied and I was just like, why not? And I got into the police department and, and I had simultaneously applied to the US Secret Service.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  I, I bought a book on international careers and I, I spoke languages at the time. I loved languages and I spoke multiple languages. And I'd studied in different countries while I was in college on my own. I worked like multiple part-time jobs and I'm like, all right, this semester I'm gonna work. And then next semester, I'm gonna go to Mexico and do a semester there. And then I come back and I'd work and then the next semester, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go to Italy now and work and go to school there. And I just had this hunger to open up my mind. And I think all those things kind of led me down a path where I was like, what more could I do? And honestly, the US Secret Service, I studied government, I studied international affairs. I bought a book that said careers in international affairs.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  And I was just, and it had about, had about three hundred organizations in there. And I was like, somebody's gonna give me a job in here. And I sent a resume out to Jay, and this is back in the day when there was like no internet, none of that stuff was around. And I sent out three hundred resumes the summer I graduated. I'm like, somebody's gonna say yes. And I think I got maybe twenty-five rejection letters. And then eight or seven people replied back, hey, you know, fill out this form. And one of them happened to be the Secret Service, just happened to be them. So I was just like, why not? And I think, although I didn't plan that path, sometimes I think that life takes you down the path you're meant to go.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  And although you don't, you don't realize it. And I think like, when people ask me, what's your five-year plan? Or what are your hopes and dreams? And I'm like, look, I, I, I feel it. I see it. I think this is it. But nothing has ever turned out the way I thought it would or expected it to work out. And it's almost always for the better. I'm not saying it's not hard. Cause it's, it's a hardship. You know, and even, you know, I write it, you know, when I was applying for these jobs, even when I went to the NYPD. My family was very upset with me. They were like, why are you doing this? And even my dad, I had to get his paperwork, you know, I needed his naturalization paperwork and, and all that stuff.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And although he was a strong, resilient man, like he couldn't understand. He's like, why are you doing this? Why would you think that they'd hire you? And it was hard, you know, it's hard to hear that when you're like 18, 19 and you're thinking.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  I can't listen to this. I have to just try. And I was always like, let somebody else tell me no. Let somebody else reject me. I'm okay with that. But I was like, I'm not, I can't listen to other people because at the end of the day, like I have to live with myself. And I learned over time, because there were moments where I would listen to other people and I'd look back and I'm like, man. I shouldn't have listened to this person. I should have really done what I wanted to do. And so what if I failed? And that really kind of became part of my DNA after that, why I could. And it took a time to get to that, to that point where I could tune people out. I mean, I listen to people. You need good counsel. But if I felt something, Jay, like I would, I would tune people out and I'd be like, no. Just go forward, do it.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  You know, and, and I think that just kind of became part of who I am and my, my internal mantra, maybe so to speak.

• 25:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, for sure. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. It's, it's always fascinating to hear about someone's background. And I loved what you said about almost stumbling into this world. And I, I, I often say that, you know, we get to where we want in life, just not in the way you imagined it. And it's so, and I love the analogy gift because I can connect with what you said so strongly when I hear you say things like. You know, you just sent out all these resumes and you just waited to see who responded and. For anyone who's listening or watching right now, Evy is talking about a really important principle is that so often we sit there and we try and figure out like, oh, which path should I take? We try and construct it. We try and build it perfectly and we try and technically figure it out. And it's almost like, the real answer is, open all the doors

• 25:46Jay Shetty?

  and see which ones stay open. Some of them are gonna close and some of them are gonna stay open and keep walking through the ones that stay open. And so, we can see that in Evy's life and it led to this incredible journey. So, Evy, what I wanna dive into now is I wanna talk about some of the, almost the mistakes that we make in reading people. And I think, you know, the biggest challenge that people have is like, how do I know someone's telling the truth? How do I know if I can trust someone? How do I know to believe someone? This applies to whether you're a CEO hiring for your company, whether you're an entrepreneur hiring for your startup. It relates to whether you just wanna date someone or you're talking on Tinder or Hinge or whatever it is. Like, there are so many places where I feel, we

• 26:30Jay Shetty?

  ask ourselves the questions, can I trust this person? Is this person telling me the truth? Tell us the mistakes we make when trying to assess whether we can read someone right and how to do it properly.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's so important because like, who you have in your circle of people, whether business, whether personal relationships, is so important and you have to make sure that people are meant to be there. And sometimes people come in and they may have good intentions for us initially, but then sometimes it's like, you know, this relationship needs to finish and evolve. And you, I always talk about constantly assessing everything and everyone around me to make sure like, is this working now? Because it may be working before, but maybe it's not working later. And, you know, how do you get people to trust you? But the biggest thing is to really read people and it's not like a gimmicky thing.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Like, you really have to pay attention to people. I think one of the greatest mistakes I see that people do is that they will not look at the actions of a person. So you may have someone who's like, let's say they're in a relationship, Jay, and their partner comes home late all the time, or their partner makes excuses all the time, or their partner does these things. And so if you're on the outside of the relationship and you see all these red flags, you're like, you, looking at it like, that person's cheating. No question. But then the person that's in the relationship because they're not, they can't separate the actions from the person.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  They're like, well, he's working late or she's working late because of this. Oh, well, they were talking to that person because of that. Oh, well, they couldn't unlock their phone for me because, you know, they forgot the security code. Because you start to mix the individual with the actions. And that's where we make a mistake. We don't judge the actions. We, we, we, we look at the person. And that's what happens when we end up getting betrayed. It's not until after the fact where you're like, man, like, how did I miss that? You know how after something happens, all the nickels start dropping?

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  And you're like, but they did this. I, I knew it. I dismissed it. I should have paid attention. And that's because you're really focused on the person and you help make excuses for the person because it's in your benefit. Because if you've invested time in someone, as we're talking, let's say a personal relationship. You don't want them to be unfaithful. It doesn't suit you for them to be unfaithful because it means you've lost all this time, all this, this investment in this energy. So it's easier for you to fall into that narrative and listen and believe their excuses because it's, it's the narrative you want to believe.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  And so you really have to be careful when somebody shows you things through action. You have to stop and say, if this action was somebody else independent, someone I didn't have a relationship with, what would I think? Or if somebody else came to me and said, this person did this, this, and this, what would I think?

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Look at the actions people present to you and believe in them. You know, there's a great quote that always says, when people show you who they are, believe them the first time. Like, when they show you, believe it. Like, they're telling you, they're showing you, don't, don't create that narrative. I think that's one of the greatest hurdles I see people, that they can't overcome it. Like, the signs are there. They can read the person if they want to, but they choose not to. Because it's not, it's not the narrative they want.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  On October 2nd.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all keep the blame on me.

• 30:11Speaker 04

  Tom Cruise is.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 30:16Speaker 04

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 30:19Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped going? You're stalled, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 30:23Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 30:26Speaker 05

  I'm not the first then.

• 30:27Speaker 04

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, out of middle without parent.

• 30:34Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, and what about in situations where like you don't get to see their actions? I completely agree with you, but what about in this scenario where you're like, you're just interviewing someone right now, like when you're in an interrogation, like, you're not gonna, you don't get to see that potential suspect's actions, but you're literally reading their body language, you're reading their communication, like, how are you doing it then when you haven't actually seen someone's actions? I think about that often, I interview, I have a very large team, and I'm always trying to become a better interviewer as well, because I'm like, you just, you don't know whether to trust someone, whether to give someone a chance, whether someone's being, like, how do you do it from that perspective without the actions?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  You know, for like for yourself, like if you're interviewing people and you're hiring people, one of the biggest and most important things I tell people is whoever you're talking to, make them feel comfortable, so you never want to interview somebody like from behind a desk or a table, you don't want them to feel, this is the thing Jay, you don't want them to feel like they're being interviewed, because in that moment, I'm like, oh, it's an interview, I'm gonna sit up, I'm gonna be super careful, and then also keep in mind, like, I always knew this, I knew this from doing interviews, that the majority of people will tell some form of lie, or they'll embellish, either in their application or in their interview process, and how do you corroborate that? One important thing is to know that somebody will do that, so that you're a bit more aware

• 31:58Speaker 01

  and conscientious of it, but body language is super important. If you can talk to people in person, you should really try to do that. I can't tell you how much you get from in-person interviews, because you also feel people. Nobody talks about that, but you feel people's energy, you sense them, it's before even cognitively, you've been able to make any type of assessment of someone, intuitively, your sixth sense, so to speak, which it absolutely exists, it's telling you something. So when you've got that nagging feeling, or something's not sitting right. Absolutely listen to it, absolutely listen to it. And then read people, look at their mannerisms. So, one of the things you you could do, we would start off, I would talk to someone in a conversation about

• 32:43Speaker 01

  very neutral things, how are you, where are you from, oh, great, what brings you to LA? Kind of that, but authentically, build that conversation and in that moment, you're really assessing that person J is to like how they are when they're relaxed, how they're sitting. So if they're, for example, sitting, and I'll give you a very, very basic example. If they're sitting a certain way and then they shift during the interview,

• 33:08Speaker 01

  you can take notice of that. Actually, I'll use one of your interviews for an example. So, I watched your interview with Curtis Jackson uh, from a couple of weeks ago. And I was watching you ask Curtis questions about his book. And anytime you ask Curtis a question that had to do with him remembering something or recalling something, Curtis would always look up and to the right.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Always. Every time he had to access a memory and idea. And so I would watch that interview and I don't know him. I, the first time I'm really watching him during an interview. And in that moment, I'm like, every time Curtis needs to remember something, that's where he looks. Up and to the right, he's recalling a memory. So now in that situation, if you ask Curtis something else, right? You see Curtis doing this over and over again, then you ask him another question. That's a question related to memory. But then you don't see him look up and to the right, you see him look somewhere else. That would be a pause, you'd say, okay, up until this point, every time I asked him something about memory or something about recalling an event, he looked this way. But now he's looking somewhere else. So in that moment, you could argue, or your red flag could go up. Maybe Curtis is creating a memory now.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  And I'm not saying he did this, but sometimes like when people create lies, they access a different part of their brain. So you may access a part of your brain when you're trying to remember something. And for him, all that was, was he would look up and to the right, that was just Curtis. But I wouldn't have noticed that if I didn't watch and pay attention to his patterns. And so I would watch a deviation, or if you ask somebody a question and they're sitting in their relaxed posture, then out of nowhere, you ask them something and you know it's a sensitive topic, or maybe you're not even sure. And their posture switches to something very common, something like this.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  You could say in that moment, alright, I just asked a question and his or her posture just shifted. Why? Now, could it be they got tired? Could it be that that's their normal posture? It could be. But if they're not like this the whole time, that should be an indicator to you, like, there's something that happened here that they shifted their posture. And so when you see these deviations and then you're able to realize certain people's patterns, that's when you become a better reader of people. And there's certain things, positions you wanna look for, even verbal language is super important. And I talk about red flag verbal language. I talk about something like, for example, what I would see a lot when I worked financial institution crimes.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  One of the things I would hear victims tell me a lot, when I'd say, hey, why did you give this person your money? And not ask questions? And they would say, you know, well, you know, I asked, but he said, you know, trust me. And, you know, anytime I would hear that, it was a huge red flag. It still is. And so a truthful person will explain things to you. A deceptive person won't. They won't explain things to you because they don't want to explain things to you. So even there's certain patterns in language. Or somebody that repeatedly says, I don't know, I don't recall. I call it, I have a term for this, it's like, I think that I have amnesia. Um, tactic that people use.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  You see it deployed when people don't wanna answer questions. And that's really important with reading people. But I think what's also important for people to understand is like the way people deceive, the way people lie. And we think that a liar is gonna be very obvious. So like, there's three ways people lie. The first way people lie, Jay, is they can make something up from beginning to end. It's a fabricated story. It's completely made up. The second way people lie is I put in a little bit of truth, a little bit of lie, a little bit of truth, a little bit of lie, so I mix it up. So it's kind of like a peak and valley thing. The most common way people lie is through omission. And it's what they don't tell you, they leave it out.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  And the majority of us, because we feel bad, most of us do have a conscience and some people have it more cutely than others. But most of us just won't say it because we're like, I don't want to be a liar. But I'll leave this part out. The thing is, it's still a lie because it, because you left it out. It changes the story fundamentally. And that's where we really have to read people. But when you see something, you also have to be able to, to come up with follow-up questions. And that's another big thing. A lot of times we let things slide. And don't, we don't inquire, we're not inquisitive. We'll take what people give us and then move on. Yeah. So if you ask somebody a question, they keep saying, I don't know, I don't know, and you let it go.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  That's, that's something that you have to look at and be like, okay, they're dodging this question. How can I come back and ask this? Or maybe ask it later. You know, it's kind of like you put a pin in it. Yeah. And these are some of the fundamental things that you want to look for. Body language. Reading people, connecting with people, openness. When people feel relaxed too, they're going to give you more information with their body. I call, we called it bleeding information. So also too, Jay, when people lie. They're, they're nervous. Nobody wants to get caught in a lie. There's a stress response that happens. So you'll, you'll see them, their body leak, bleed, we used to use bleed, they would bleed information. And so you'd say, why are they doing this with their body?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  You know, why all of a sudden, you know, they're sitting calmly and all of a sudden now they're scratching their head when we're talking about. You know, whether or not they got fired from their last job. That's a deviation from what they were. And so it really is about being in tune and looking for all those different things. But most importantly, knowing when you see it and then coming back in with questions. And another key thing that's really important is asking. Open-ended questions and I, I'm a huge advocate of this. If you could get people to tell you a story. You want people to tell you a story and the more they talk. The more you will learn about people. They'll tell you what they're thinking, what they're feeling, what their values are. You get a really good read on them.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  A really good read. And again, that read will help you later on when you get into areas that you're concerned about. Whether they've been fired, whether, you know, they've been to jail or stolen money or done whatever, or. You know, whether what they put on their resume is truthful. And that's what you look for, those deviations.

• 39:26Jay Shetty?

  Wow, you're blowing my mind right now. This is great. Everyone, I hope you're taking notes, right? Evy's given us so many practical tips already. The three tips of lying, fascinating, right? The need for open-ended questions. We don't ask enough of them, and that's something that we all know. We know we should ask open-ended questions, but we don't know how to ask them. We don't know when to ask them. We struggle to remember to ask them, and we ended up asking yes and no and close questions. And so, everything that Evy's saying, I hope you're taking notes, because I'm taking mental notes a lot of these things. And I promise you that there are so many practical tips in there as to how to really build that rapport, how to build that connection, and how to build that trust. Now, Evy, you say that law enforcement academies are there to break you down and build your resilience.

• 40:09Jay Shetty?

  How do they do that? Because it's almost like, I feel like, for anyone who wants to build their resilience, first we have to break ourselves down in order to really build it. I remember in my monk training, I felt like monk training broke me down before we built anything. Tell us about how it's done in the law enforcement academies that you've explored.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  I honestly think it's done in a similar way, that the foundation of it is similar, because it's stripping you of all your flaws. It's stripping you of all the weaknesses that you may have that you should not have. And it feels, it's hard. My first week in the academy, Jay, like, I was like, I want to quit. Everyone's yelling at me. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm super confused. I came here with good intentions. No matter what I do, I can't get it right. And it was done purposefully, because they want you to know what it feels like to be stressed out, and they want to see how you're going to react. How do you react to stress? You know, and even like, what we're seeing today, when you see officers doing certain things that they should absolutely not be doing.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Like, when you are out there, you can't be like everybody else. Yeah, people can get in your face, and people can be rude, and people can put hands on you. But you, you can't be them. Just because somebody us escalates you, you don't escalate. You have to keep it together. And that is one of the most important things with regard to the profession and part of why they they try to do that in the training process. And it's actually, they call it hormesis, hormesis is the Greek word, hormetic effect, where you induce small amounts of stress into somebody. They adapt to that stress. They overcome that stress. And then they're they're stronger, more resilient a little bit. And then you give them another stressful situation.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  They adapt to that. They overcome it. And then another, and then another. So then what happens is you've created a pattern or a habit, rather. You create a habit in which stress comes. You recognize it. Oh, no big deal. I've seen this before. You accept the stress and then you adapt to it. But when we are really kind of buffered from stress in life, and then when it does happen, we're thinking, oh, my God, this stressful situation happened. What do I do? That's because you you're not used to that. You've you've not adapted that. And so with training, especially Secret Service training, I mean, it was large amounts of stress and like running and and being tactical and having somebody yell at you

• 42:41Speaker 01

  and treat you like garbage and then failing at something and being humiliated and ridiculed. You know, all these things. And then you have to sit there and take it and stomach it. And and sometimes it's truthful. And then sometimes there's a little bit of drama and theatrics involved because they want to break you down. But the mindset was if you can't handle this in here.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  What are you gonna do out there? Out there when people, and you you know, especially in the Secret Service, when you're dealing with threats, you're protecting other people's lives, like you, you have to keep it together. So when the whole world is falling apart around you or there's chaos, you you you you can't follow suit. You have to be so like streamlined, so focused, like I get havoc is happening around me, but I got it. I'm laser focused. And truly, Jay, that that can only be done to you by breaking you down, making you feel that burden and that pressure and that stress. And then you overcoming it. And then it also makes you more confident after that. You become more confident in yourself. You're like, yeah, I've been here. I overcame this.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  I'm good. And it, and it really does something for your self-esteem, your self-esteem and your decision-making abilities. They teach you to be decisive. It teaches you to be decisive, to not look to like shop around for other people's answers, but intuitively to say to yourself, I know the answer. This is my answer. I don't need anybody else's okay to do this. And so I think that like that process really helps create a strong people. But there's also another part of it that's called the self-selection process, where only people, I would see this pattern, like it is like this with special forces and even certain jobs out there.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Only the people that really believe already from the get-go that they can do something, only those people put in for it. You know, I hear people a lot of times say to me like, oh my God, I could never have been a Secret Service agent. I could never have gone through training. And I think to myself, why not?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Why not? How did I? And we, we defeat ourselves before we even try to do anything. Like we'll, we'll create a dream and kill it within like a minute.

• 45:01Jay Shetty?

  That is so powerful. What you just said about how we defeat ourselves even before we try. And I don't know if you meant to rhyme it, but you did rhyme. You said, uh, we, we, we create a dream and then kill it within a minute. Uh, and it's, uh, it's so true. It's so true. And, and, and what I wonder is when you describe the tough, challenging resilience training that you went through, it sounds like for a lot of people, the stress of their lives feels like that high-stress environment, but we don't react well to stress. And what you were taught to do effectively is how to deal with very acute levels of stress. So what were the, if you, if you had to break it down into a process of like

• 45:41Jay Shetty?

  three or four steps, what were the steps of that training to get better at dealing with more stress? Uh, I, I loved one example that you gave of like, you know, more and more stress, like small amounts of stress than bigger amounts of stress. But what were other techniques that were used to help you do that? Cause I think a lot of people could benefit from them right now.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  When something happens, don't resist it. We resist things. Like even if you take Jay, like the pandemic, like I'll hear people like, I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe this is happening. I want things to go back. And we don't live in the truth of things. We live in the past, we live in where we wish to be, and that that destroys you right there. So the first thing is you have to accept, this is where I'm at, it sucks. But this is where I'm at. So you accept it. And then now, once you accept it, and that's the biggest hurdle, believe it or not. It's you. We are always our biggest hurdles, but once you accept it, now it's like, okay. How do I handle it? How do I adapt? And can you filter out the noise? Because there's always so much noise around us.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  And filtering out the noise is really, really powerful. And then, you know, and you you did say something earlier about how do we we have stressful lives? Something that's really important that I want to to to emphasize is that you are also the gatekeeper of what kind of stress you allow into your life. So you if you have access to people that cause consistent and chronic amounts of stress in your life, that's no good. That's not a good thing. You are the gatekeeper, and so you have to say noise, chatter, this is all not good for me, because it makes you more chaotic. If you're around chaos, you're going to be chaotic. And you push, you have to, you have to be the gatekeeper and keep that stuff away from you. But for those moments when things do happen,

• 47:23Speaker 01

  it's the acceptance, then your ability to adapt and to be okay when you don't adapt right. So there's plenty of times where I've not adapted right, or done the right thing, or handled something right. And I always go back, and even training was like that. What did you learn? What are you going to do better next time? Training was designed to make you fail over and over and over again. I failed, like failure was like my my my my my Cape Crusade, like I failed at so many things and but when I failed, I was like, all right, what do I need to do differently? Why didn't I perform at the level I was supposed to? And then the fear of that failure, the fear of like, I might not graduate as a special agent, and I'm not going to lose this opportunity. So passion is a big thing.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Whatever you're pursuing or dealing with, you have to have passion and and and drive. You have to say, this is important to me. If something's not important to you, you're not gonna it's not going to matter. You're going to be flippant with it.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  But I think that that's, those are like the key things and then just when stress does happen to you, I guess I tell people in the way I was taught, like, don't look at it as a horrible thing. Look at it as an opportunity to learn and make it embrace it, embrace the challenge, embrace the confrontation, embrace the hardship. Yeah, someone's coming at you. Now what? And I know I'm thinking, talking in a tactical sense, you know, I remember in training, I didn't write about this in the book, but we did something called Red Man. And they would put us in a room as one of the final training things and they put us in a room to fight somebody, like really fight someone. They're like, okay, you have to go apprehend somebody. We call it Red Man because he was like covered in a gear. And Jay, he would beat the crap out of you. I mean, he literally lifted me up, this guy.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  It was an instructor. I can't remember if it was two instructors and like throw me across the room and they're like, go get him, go get him. And when instinctually you want to like kind of hide, you know, and I'm thinking, man, I'm going to get a beat down. But I remember thinking, I'm like, you're going to have to earn that beat down. You may beat me, but you're going to have to earn it. And not being afraid to lose, not being afraid to fail, not being afraid to be rejected. And I've, you undergo those things in training all the time. Your ego goes out the door. You got an ego, you're the first person that leaves that academy. They will, they will push you out. They will make your life hell till you go. And so embracing that and embracing failure is so powerful. Just being like, all right, what's up? Next.

• 49:52Jay Shetty?

  That's insane. That is insane. It's, it's, it's crazy to think about it because yeah, there are multiple ways to break someone down. And I'm hoping as you're listening and watching to this, you're realizing the messages that are coming out of what Evy's saying around how, you know, we're not going, we're not getting chucked around in that way, but we're going through our own failures and our own rejections and our own stress. And, and learning to not resist that stress, learning to not resist that pain allows us to actually strengthen our resilience muscle. Now, now Evy, you've worked with some incredible leaders and leaders that people have, you know, people have watched on TV and obsess over and learn about. And, and I'm intrigued by what you feel you learned from them or

• 50:34Jay Shetty?

  what you observed in them. So if you take someone like, uh, you know, former president Bill Clinton, like I've, I've always heard that he was extremely charming. He was able to make everyone feel special, like they were the only people in the room. What was something that you observed about him that you think we're, we're less aware of?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was so lucky. There was, I remember there was a point, I remember walking into the White House years later, and I'd have moments like these, I was like, "Oh, my, my office is the White House," you know, "and I'm about to go see the president." And in the beginning, you have those moments, and after a while, you get used to it. But even sometimes, once in a while, I'd be like, "Oh, yeah, okay, Bill Clinton's coming," or, "Okay, oh, Barack's coming down the hall," you know? "Let's go." But, look, I was there to do my job, so I wasn't there to be a groupie. I wasn't there to be like, "Sure, sure, I have a question. How would you handle this problem?" Like, that stuff didn't fly. Of course. You were there to do a function. But, like, Jay, I was like a sponge, a sponge. And I absorbed from everything, because in the White House, you'd have the presidents coming through,

• 51:35Speaker 01

  the first ladies coming through, foreign heads of state coming through, sometimes really remarkable people who had extraordinary lives, Nobel Peace Prize winners. And I, I was like, "I am so lucky to be here. I'm gonna absorb everything I can." And, like, you know, you bring up Bill Clinton, because he was one of my first protectees, truly. And I spent a lot of time with him, and he really was, like, you'd see him, he'd talk to people, and he was like, "Hey, how are you?" He'd make, he'd connect with people, he'd pull them in. There was like, there wasn't the superficial, like, "Oh, hey, how are you?" and go. And I saw with that why people loved him, because I remember when I first started, everywhere we went, there was like droves of people, and I was like,

• 52:19Speaker 01

  "Is he like the most popular protectee? Like, the most popular president out there?" And after a while, I saw why, because he would really go shake hands with people, talk to them. He, he would remember a face. He'd meet someone, and then see somebody later, be like, "Oh, yeah, I met that guy five months ago somewhere," and you're thinking, "How do you remember?" Because this is someone who meets thousands of people. And that was a skill. It came from a genuine place, don't get me wrong. But a lot of these are skills and habits that you, you tweak, and you, you, you, you fine tune, especially when you're a leader. And sometimes people think, "Oh, that's the president, you know, he has to be a leader." And I always thought, I was like, "Why, why can I be a leader?

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Why can I have leadership qualities?" And in anything I do, I don't have to be president. And I really was like a student. I would go to work and I'd do my job, but I was a student. Whatever I could see, whatever assignment I could volunteer for, I was that person. To be in proximity and to learn from successes and failures. And also, talk about stress. These, their jobs, regardless of your political affiliation or anything, like the presidents that I would be around, they would deal with high-stress situations. They couldn't fall to pieces.

• 53:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  They couldn't. They couldn't be upset or cry because somebody called them horrible names or insulted them on national TV. Because that would happen. They were like, I gotta keep it together. And they kept it together until sometimes when you're around, not sometimes, when you are around strong people like that, you, you become that. You absorb the energy of the people around you. You become resilient.

• 53:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  And so in that way, although maybe growing up, I didn't have that. I didn't have access to people like that. I didn't have access to anything like that. But because I worked hard to, I put myself in an environment that allowed me to have access to people like that. You know, I did that. I made that happen. And then the people around us, like, we absorb that energy. We absorb those habits. We absorb those characteristics. And I, I keep that to this day. You know, I'm like, whose habits do I want to absorb? And then even Jay also, I learned from some politicians and not necessarily like my, the presidents or first ladies, but you know, other politicians, habits where I'm like, that's something I will never do. That's something that's not right. You know, you can learn from

• 54:42Speaker 01

  not just the positive people, the positive things people do, but even the negative things people do, like they, that can teach you how not to be, who not to be.

• 54:53Jay Shetty?

  So well said, so well said. I, I think that's brilliant, like. And that's something all of us can do, right? Like whether you're working in a company or working at a startup or anything, like any one of us can look to people. And yeah, people with negative behavior teaches what we don't want to be like. And people with positive behavior teaches what we do want to be like and And I think that that's something that we can all do so practically because when people say like, "Well, what's the good in being in a bad situation?" That's what it is. You learn what you don't want to repeat. You learn what you don't want to recreate. And, and I think that's really, really beautifully explained. But yeah, okay. So Evy, what I want to end with you is your final five. These are your rapid fire questions. So you've given us some incredible answers with so much depth and insight.

• 55:37Jay Shetty?

  Now we've got to turn it the other way. So you'll be a pro at this because I'm guessing you, you've done so much more of this than I have, but you've got to answer the next five questions with either one word or one sentence maximum.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Oh, the pressure, Jay, the pressure.

• 55:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I mean, this is like easy for you. You're like, oh, come on, I got thrown around the room. But, but let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. So the first question is, what question do you usually open interrogations with?

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Oh, tell me about your day.

• 56:08Jay Shetty?

  Ah, interesting. Okay. Question number two. What is the most powerful thing you learned from Barack Obama or observing Barack Obama? It doesn't have to be directly.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  His voice, the power of voice.

• 56:20Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  His, his voice, like he commanded his voice.

• 56:25Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  And I never, I never thought about that till I watched him. And how, what a powerful tool that is, paralinguistics. Not what you say, but how you say it.

• 56:34Jay Shetty?

  Yes. Great lesson. Love it. What's one thing you learned from Michelle Obama?

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Self-worth.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  She taught me like that.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I think because I grew up a certain way and I, we didn't grow up in poverty, but we didn't grow up great either. And I always thought that taking care of yourself and doing certain things meant was a luxury and you shouldn't do that.

• 57:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  And I, I had a wrong perception of it and I, I learned from her that that just means you love yourself and you respect yourself. So I learned self-worth, taking care of yourself.

• 57:13Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful. Okay. Question number four out of your five. If you could create one law that everyone else in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Stop trying to shove your opinion down somebody else's throat. Just listen. You don't have to like it, but just allow people to express themselves, even if you don't like it.

• 57:33Jay Shetty?

  Great answer. And question number five, what's the biggest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Um, hmm, God, man, there's so many.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  I've learned that during a time of crisis, you can either be a giver or you can be a taker. And you choose who you want to be. So when this whole thing is over, when I look back and when you look back, whenever a person looks back, what were you? Were you someone who gave to help during the pandemic or these issues? Or did you say you were someone who took? And so I learned that there's a world to play and you have a choice.

• 58:21Jay Shetty?

  Beautiful. What a great answer. Everyone, that is Evy Pomporous. We've been talking about Becoming Bulletproof. I will put the link to the book in the comments. If you want to build up a mental shield, if you want to read people, understand body language, influence scenarios, and most importantly, live fearlessly. This is the book that you want to go and grab, full of incredible stories, insights we haven't even dived into. We literally scratched the surface today. There is so much more that Evy has to share about human behavior, the mind, and those fascinating stories that underpin her life. Evy, thank you so much for joining us today on On Purpose. It's been so wonderful speaking with you. I hope we get to meet at some stage. And I just want to thank you for all the incredible work you did. So thank you so much.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Jay. It was awesome. I hope we get to meet too. Be well, be safe.

• 59:17Speaker 04

  Mr. President, my company tore me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd.

• 59:21Speaker 03

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 59:33Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped doing it? You start, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 59:37Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 59:41Speaker 05

  I'm not the first man.

• 59:42Speaker 04

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a minute without parent.