Vinh Giang: How to Communicate So People Actually Listen to You

Communication expert Vinh Giang joins Jay to share practical tools from his first book, Before We Forget How to Connect, to help you become a more confident communicator and build deeper, more meaningful connections. Vinh explains how to become a better listener, avoid common communication mistakes, and speak so people actually pay attention. From sounding confident when you're nervous to speaking up in meetings, navigating difficult conversations, and making a great first impression, Vinh shares simple techniques to help you communicate more effectively and connect with people in every area of your life. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Instagram Teen Accounts: Built-in protections for teens. JAY'S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe here: https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Introduction 00:25 Before We Forget How To Connect 01:52 The High-Low Buffalo Icebreaker 02:45 Sharing Personal Highs 05:15 Sharing Personal Lows 11:40 Sharing Personal Buffalos 13:40 Escaping Small Talk 16:10 Overcoming Self-Judgment 17:58 Sharing Wins Without Sounding Arrogant 19:50 Communication Beyond The Script 20:40 Gen Z's Communication Struggles 23:20 Last Word, Last Letter Game 27:20 The Four Modalities Of Listening 29:50 The Three Follow-Up Questions Rule 35:50 How Do You Make A Great First Impression? 40:10 Reading the Room, Not Formulas 44:10 Finding Your Unique Voice 49:00 Life As A Book: New Chapters 50:40 Building Executive Presence 53:20 Fix Your Resting Blank Face 58:30 Filming Yourself For Self-Awareness 01:02:20 When Your Mind Goes Blank 01:06:10 The Power Of The Pause 01:09:30 How Can You Sound Confident When You’re Nervous? 01:14:40 From Texting Chemistry to Real-Life Connection 01:18:40 How to Communicate Better During Arguments 01:20:20 Learning to Speak Up In Meetings 01:25:45 How to Join a Conversation Without Feeling Awkward 01:28:20 Leaving A Conversation Gracefully 01:31:4 Embracing Vulnerability Episode Resources: Book | https://vinhgiang.com/before-we-forget-how-to-connect Website | https://vinhgiang.com/ YouTube | https://youtube.com/@askvinh Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/share/1CCPX1ChrP/?mibextid=wwXIfr LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/vinhgiang Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:39Speaker 00

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• 1:23Speaker 00

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• 2:08Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Today I'm joined by my friend Vin Jang, communication expert and author of his first ever book, Before We Forget How to Connect. If you want a book to read right now, this is the one to grab. It will help you break down how to speak with confidence, command attention and get people to actually listen to you. Vin, welcome back to On Purpose.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. And I completely agree with what Jay said. You should totally get a copy.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, they should. Dude, I know, I just want to say it is so hard to write a book.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  It's so hard to put all your ideas down on paper. I really like to acknowledge, especially when you're doing it for the first time and how exciting that moment is. And I feel like you've given away so much free value to the world up until this point in your career. So many incredible videos, great training online. And for people to now come and support you through a book and, and get all those insights in one place, it's really exciting. So congrats.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  No, thank you so much. And like you said, it was, it was so difficult because being someone who uses their voice, their body language, their expression, that when you write, all of that gets taken away. And all you're left with is words on a page and you have to be able to communicate melody, volume, the pause. Wow, that was one of the most difficult things I've ever done.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Is there just a few pages of pause in the book?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I thought pause would be so good if it was just blank pages. And then you, and that's a pause.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  That would have been amazing.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  I know, I didn't do that. Now I wish I did that, Jay. Why are you telling me this now?

• 3:55Speaker 00

  I'm sure the publisher would have hated it.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they would have absolutely hated it.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  The extra printing costs. I wanted to start with, you have a game that you like to play with people to help people start engaging and connecting. Tell me about it.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  It's such a wonderful way, if you're catching up with a friend, instead of the, the usual, hey, mate, how's life? And then we just go to generic things. Oh, kids work, it's busy. Hit them with high-low buffalo. So high-low buffalo is this simple game where high is you share something that's been going well for you. Low is something that hasn't been going so well for you. And then buffalo is something interesting about you. So we, I think we should start with that because we haven't seen each other in a while.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  We haven't.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  So we can catch up very quickly by playing high-low buffalo. So you're down?

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Okay, so do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

• 4:38Speaker 00

  Uh, can we do one at a time?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Okay, well, yeah, high and high. Okay, okay, okay. I like that, I like that. So do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

• 4:45Speaker 00

  I can go first, I can go first.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  So high is a highlight, something good this year or this week or?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  In the last six to 12 months.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  I would say the greatest high has been, I feel like I'm surrounded by such an incredible high performing team. I'm feeling like we're all in sync. Everyone has the same values, everyone's moving in the same direction. It feels like we found the right people, whether people joined three weeks ago or they joined, some people have been with me for eight years. It feels like we've just got the right unit.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:15Speaker 00

  And that is just one of the most gratifying things, I think, as an entrepreneur, as a business person, to feel that you're surrounded by people that you like being around. Hopefully they like being around me. And I feel this sense of momentum building because of that. And so any success or any achievement we've had this year or in the last few years is because of them, but I feel like we're just getting better and we're just getting started. So that's my big personal high.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Oh, that's beautiful. And now I feel this sense of obligation to say the same thing about my team who are here, who are here, but I'm not going to say that.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  Good, yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  I'm not going to say that because it's not true for my team. Yeah, there's no alignment, that's all over. No, I love them. But I'm going to choose my high as, as, you know, I've got two kids. I've got Melody who's two and Xander who's nine. And for the first time before I left, they played well. Okay, so, so to them it's war. It's always, oh, that's my toy, that's my toy. For the first, because my daughter loves Barbies, dresses, girls' gear. My son loves animals, dinosaurs. But for the first time before I went away on a Sunday, we were literally catching bugs, putting them into this ecosystem that my son created. And they played together beautifully for three hours. And that was just, just as a dad, for the first time, I've seen both my kids play.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  And I'm like, so that's why you have more than a kid. It's for these moments.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Because it melted my heart, it was beautiful. And at the end of the three hours, it was immediately, and I was, ah, damn it. But that was a high for me.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  That was beautiful, man.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  That's awesome. When you go back, will they still be playing?

• 6:46Speaker 01

  They're already fighting because my wife's already told me now she has to co-sleep with both of them. But my son's like, this is my bed. And my daughter's like, this is my bed. Yeah, but that's okay. It's, it's for the moments, the 5% moments that remind you why you have multiple children.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful, man. That's awesome. You probably missed them, not seeing them for three weeks.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  FaceTime every single night and, oh, it's actually, yeah, it's hard. It's hard now being away more than ever.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, can imagine. Uh, so that's high.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's high.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  And then we go to low.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  We go to low.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Instagram teen accounts come with automatic protections that limit who can contact teens, the content they can see and the time they spend on the app. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. So I live in LA where we are right now, but I'm from London. And so every Christmas I go back to London for the holidays. This year is 10 years since I left England to live in the States. And so I wanted to do a thank you gratitude evening dinner for my closest friends in London. So to invite everyone over, but do it as a way of saying, thanks for supporting me for the last 10 years in my career, since day one. These are people I've known for two decades.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  And this was a hard moment because I, the one person I really want to invite is my mentor who died during the pandemic of stage four brain cancer. And it's been really hard thinking about this event and doing it without him because it almost doesn't make sense without him there. And then while we were making the invites in the last 24 hours, I just had, I put it in honor of him, like in memory of him.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  And that made it feel like it made sense all of a sudden, just like that tiny line at the bottom of an invite that says, in memory of and in honor of his name. And I was just thinking how fabulous it is to have people like that, that I miss so much and that I would love to share my success with so much. And there's this incredible video. It was, it was actually Piers Morgan interviewing Cristiano Ronaldo. This is years ago. Piers Morgan takes out a video that Cristiano Ronaldo's never seen of his dad talking about how proud he was because his dad never got to see him become the massive soccer star he is. His dad died before that happened.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  And I was thinking about just how lucky you are to have someone in your life like that who believed in you before everything happened, before the world noticed, before society got on board. And that mentor was that person to me. And so to go back and celebrate feels weird without him because I know he'd be the person right at the front cheering me on. And that's been not a low, but it's, it's one of those like bittersweet moments of, I'm really excited to celebrate, but I'm, I miss him.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  What would you say to him?

• 9:35Speaker 00

  I'd say to him, thank you for believing in me when I didn't have anything to prove that I was even going to do anything in my life. I'd say thank you to him for investing in me when I probably wasn't showing any potential or even sincerity. Thank you for always making me feel like nothing was impossible when everyone around you had their doubts and their skepticism and their cynicism and people like that. You, you meet one person like that, if you're lucky in your lifetime, maybe you've got two or three. And so, yeah, I, I, I feel a sense of bittersweet of going back to celebrate with all these people, but not having the one person that I believe I'd like to honor with everything I've been able to achieve in the last 10 years.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, thank you for sharing, man. And, and for me, the, the low thing in the last couple of years has just been, I've, I've had really close family members who've been, who are younger than me. I'm 40 this year and they're, they're in their late 30s, mid 30s, getting cancer. You know, people I, I, I love, like my, my cousins and it, it feels low because you, you want to help. You, you, you want to do more than just sit and be there for them. You want to be able to help them, but it's, you can't. They have to fight the battle. They have to go through the pain. They have to endure the chemo, endure the radiation therapy. And it just, you feel so helpless.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  So I think I've been, I've been sitting with that for, for a couple of years and that's, that's just, it's just been getting harder and harder, the longer the battle goes on. And, and it just reminds me too of, of we, we, the time we have with our loved ones is just not promised.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's, that's a big one. So thank you. Thank you for letting me share that.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. Have they shared anything useful of how they want you to support them at this time? Because I think a lot of people, we're gonna talk about communication today.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  I feel like one of the hardest things to communicate is with someone who's going through something much worse than you are. And I think a lot of us shut off a lot of people that, and sadly enough, I have friends in my life who also at young ages have cancer.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  And the number one thing they say to me is, Jay, people just ignore it or avoid the topic because they don't know what to say.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  They need different things in different moments and you have to learn how to ask them for what they need in the different moments they're experiencing. Because my go-to, Jay, is always, everything's gonna be okay, you know? And then there are times when they do need that and then there are times where don't say that because everything's not okay. And it was so confusing even for me. I teach this craft and I did it wrong multiple times. And I've had to learn how to listen with more than just my brain and listen to the words. I had to learn how to listen with my eyes, listen with my ears. I had to learn how to listen with my heart. So there's, and they need different things in different moments.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  There's times when people need a pattern break. I don't wanna talk about it anymore. And then there are times when all I wanna do is talk about it. I wanna talk about the mobility of it. Maybe I won't be here for this Christmas. So it's knowing when, and that's all about listening, listening to them.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  You know, and I think that's, that's the key thing, but it's just, the big lesson they've, they've kinda taught me is sometimes it's not about solving anything. Sometimes it's just about us sitting and connecting and reminding me of who I am. Sometimes it's just us sharing old stories. Sometimes it's just us eating together. Whereas my brain, Jay, is always, let's solve it. This fear that you're feeling, let's solve the fear. Let's just fix it. But sometimes there's nothing to fix. Sometimes you need to sit in that fear and be okay with it. And the biggest lesson I learned from them is, I remember my cousin telling me once, he just goes, I just want you to sit in the dark with me and just be scared with me.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Right? Whereas I try to be brave all the time and I learned so many lessons on this journey and learned that it's not always about fixing it. Sometimes you sit in the dark with them, Jay.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  Really helpful, really thoughtful way of looking at it.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  So that's high and low.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then there's buffalo, which is something interesting about you that maybe people don't know. And it doesn't have to be crazy. It can be something small or it can be something big. You know, like all these ornaments you have, I find them fascinating. I thought that was from the Odyssey, but it wasn't.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  And I wish it was.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wish it was too.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  I'm obsessed with the Odyssey. I mean, I think this one's funnier because it's so antithetical to who I really am. But for some reason I do enjoy the game and we're just talking about it with your team now. I'm excited about GTA six.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  That doesn't seem like you at all.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  It's so funny.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 14:09Speaker 00

  It's so funny. I was like, I'm really looking forward to it. I can't wait. I don't, I don't get that much time to play video games anymore.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Are you gonna block some time out at least to?

• 14:17Speaker 00

  A weekend, a weekend, a forty-eight hours, I think. Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Cause you said this was a PlayStation room where you're not podcasting?

• 14:22Speaker 00

  This used to be my man cave before we turned it into this.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  It's beautiful.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  And so thank you. And so this used to be my man cave, but now I don't have a man cave at the moment.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I love that you have a gamer in you.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  You know, that's so good to know because every time I game, I feel bad.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  I love FIFA, love NBA two K and I love GTA. Those are my three games. So I'm not much of a Call of Duty or I'm not, so those are my three games.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Oh, that's beautiful. I love knowing that'll be, that's beautiful. You humanize us.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  My buffalo, I think I've never said this out loud, I'm a prepper, a doomsday prepper.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Oh dude, I love it. There's something about it where I, I've got a basement. I've got Mylar bags filled with rice, little oxygen tablets that removes all the oxygen from it.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  How big is the basement?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a decent size. It's a decent size. I won't say too much. Otherwise I'll get, you know, when the zombie apocalypse happens, everyone will come after me.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm coming to you now.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. You gotta come to Adelaide, South Australia, in the hills. But it just, I, I don't know what it is. I'm so drawn to that. I love the shows. And I watch it. I'm like, that is a wild setup, you know? I just, that's me. I think, I think people don't expect that, but I.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  I'm gonna have to learn from you.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Oh man, you gotta at least learn the basics. You gotta learn how to garden. You gotta learn how to grow your potatoes. You gotta learn how to do archery. The basics.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  I didn't know how it was gonna go before we did it because I was wondering, I was like, oh, am I just gonna say something high and low? Like, will I, will I actually go there? And for whatever reason, I felt we both gave really genuine, sincere, thoughtful answers that really resonated and I felt, wow, like we, I felt connected to you in a way that we haven't had the opportunity to do for a long time.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Well, it allows us to do it quickly in about the time span of five to eight minutes, right? So, so we're able to look at something you were proud of, like your team and the alignment. We're looking at something that you, you're feeling a bit low about, is someone that you wanted to thank. That's no longer here. And then also the fact that you, you play games, you can't wait for GTA six, right? So it was beautiful. We could hit all three things straight away. So what that does is now between the both of us, I call them conversational threads.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  So there are three conversational threads that you've shared. I've shared three conversational threads. This conversation now has six conversational threads. And if you, if you, if you rewind this video, what's really cool is naturally we started pulling on each other's low thread.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Naturally, I asked you the questions and then you immediately asked me about my low questions. And to me, people go, oh, I hate small talk. I hate small talk. Then that's because you're not pulling on the threads. That's because you're not listening carefully.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  And, and again, if you play the video back and you listen to my voice or Jay's voice, you can hear our voices shift. You can hear there's more emotion. You can hear the language that we use. You can see our body language changes. And to me, these are all threads, visual threads with your body language, auditory threads with your voice, language threads, key words that you say, right? The regret, or even for me, it's sitting in, sitting in the darkness. These are all threads and you can pull on them. And as you ask more questions, we go deeper.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  And I think the only reason why people get trapped in small talk is because then they've never learned to hear, see, feel and sense these threads. Whereas there's depth opportunities all around you in every conversation. And, and that's the thing, have the courage to play this game with your kids, with your best mate, with your colleagues. And in ten minutes, you'll learn things about each other you've never known about each other, which now creates the opportunity for depth.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  And, and the scary thing is, Jay, when I shared this game with my students, immediately there's that feeling of like, ah, no, this is one of those icebreaker games. This is lame. I don't wanna do it. It's weird. But it's like, it's only weird if you make it weird. We could have made it really weird if we wanted to, but we didn't, right? So I think, and that just goes to show how adverse we are. And maybe it's a skill we're starting to lose.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  The discomfort people feel of just sharing something that's gone good, something that's bad and something interesting.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  What I find when I speak to people is we start judging ourselves for maybe my high isn't high enough and maybe my low isn't low enough.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  And so we get scared that, oh, maybe I'm gonna share a success that isn't gonna be important enough. And maybe that person's now gonna say, they just got promoted, whatever it may be. And so we're worried about that and therefore we don't know where to gauge it. And then we say something silly and then we're like, oh, that was even worse. And then I've heard people say, I don't think my life's worth complaining about, like it's not bad enough. And I think what we both shared actually wasn't even about us. In that it wasn't that something bad happened to you or me. It was that something bad had happened to people we love and we were feeling pain for that, which neither of us felt judged for. Like I didn't feel my pain was greater or less than yours.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  I feel like that's a really important point to make that don't judge your answer before you put it out into the world because if it's a friend, a colleague or a family member, chances are they're not gonna judge you for it and they'll meet you where you're at.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  So yeah, don't, don't criticize yourself before expressing yourself.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  I love that thought and, and the opposite of that thought is also true. Where you think to yourself, oh, it's too big of it. I don't wanna say it. I don't wanna seem like I'm gloating. That's why we become more lonely than ever because we're self-editing so much that we, we, we, we dim what is bright. Or sometimes we are afraid to share that light. You've gotta learn to not be afraid to just share what is you. And I think that, that, that's a big part of why I wrote this as well is because so much of the book is you exploring your voice, you exploring your body language, you exploring the stories that exist within you. I think the more we explore, the more comfortable we come with the instrument that we play. Whereas often people aren't comfortable sharing certain things because you've never shared that.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  You've never shared it before. So don't look at it as wrong. It's just unfamiliar.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  How do you share a win without sounding egotistic?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Ego has a sound to it too. Because to me, there's a, there's a visual nature to it and then there's an auditory nature to it. So, so if I was sharing a, a win and I wanted to share it, it would sound arrogant. Like I can say, oh, this morning my friend gave me a really good, great watch, a watch that I've always wanted in my entire life. And he was able to share it with me and it's just like a grail watch that I've wanted. Sick. So, so you kind of sound a little bit eager. It's actually, it was an Odyssey watch from Hamilton, which was wild.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Then it sounds like it and it could look like it too. Whereas if you said it, then you shift the way the voice and you shift the, the visual nature of it is like, ah, ah, this morning I, I got something I wanted for a really long time. My friend Ali got me a watch. It was an Odyssey watch and it was so cool. And now there's a sound of humility.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  There's a subtleness in sound. There's a subtleness in the visual nature. And that fixes so much.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Because when you meet somebody who's arrogant, they look a certain way, they sound a certain way and we all recognize it.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  We go, oh, that person's, ah, they're a bit arrogant. Sometimes what they said wasn't even arrogant. So it's you thinking in the back of your mind, well, when I'm speaking, what kind of sounds am I creating?

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Because there is such thing, someone's friendly. How do you know they're friendly? It's because they're smiling. There's lots of melody in their voice. Oh, that person's friendly. We make those judgments so quick. So I think you've just got to be, you've got to be careful in that.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Whereas be proud of the thing you're proud of. If you love that watch, talk about that watch. If you're proud of the promotion, talk about the promotion. But it's how you play the instrument while you're doing it, ends up being the way that people perceive it. Do they perceive it with arrogance or without?

• 22:05Speaker 00

  And that's what's so fascinating. We're editing the content more than we are the communication approach.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  We don't think about the communication approach.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  We don't.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  What's the first thing people do when they're preparing for a presentation? What's the first thing they do? They write out the content.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  The script.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all about the script. And they think that the only modality for communicating an idea is the words that I choose to use. That's one modality. There are so many, there's the, the voice in which you use to deliver it. There's the body language in which you use to show it. And then there's a story that you decide to use to be able to enhance it. There's so many other modalities. So it's about all of them working together.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  I was reading some research about this and looking into how we can help our audience today really build these skills in the way you do. And of course, hopefully people get the book and then can read about it at length. But there were some key things I wanted to dive into. Ninety-six percent of employers say that communication skills are extremely important to them. But only fifty-three percent believe that new graduates have those skills. When it comes to communication, what are Gen Z struggling with?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  What they're struggling with is you, you, you're throwing them into an environment without training them for the environment. I, I feel that this is a skill that we let, get left to our own accord to, to learn. So if you've had great parents who are great communicators and you modeled them and then you're a great communicator, you have an advantage in the workforce. Whereas if, if you think about in the workforce, when, when do you learn this skill? In your own personal life, when do you learn this skill? You're not taught this skill anywhere. You're left to your own accord to master this skill. So if you, you've never learned it, then you're not going to be good at it. But then there's a problem is that now people are making the assumption that because I'm not good at it, well, I'm never going to be able to get great at it.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  People make judgments about their own communication skills as if they're permanent. But the way you communicate is just a series of behaviors that you've learned from other people that you've been repeating for the last five, 10, 20, 30, 40 years of your life. You can unlearn them and you can replace them with new behaviors. So I think a lot of, a lot of Gen Z, it just don't have the opportunity to practice these skills and be given the opportunity to master these skills. And then as a result, I see a lot of even my younger team members, they'd rather text me than have a conversation with me.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  But again, it's not their fault. I think if they learned how to play the instrument really well, they would love to do this. And it's not about one is bad, the other is. It's both. They're both really good. There are times when I just want to text, but then when I need to do this, I can too.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Otherwise you fall into the trap of thinking, I'm just gonna let my work speak for itself. Which is a super common trap. And then you end up being a secret agent that no one knows exists. Leave the secret agent stuff to Daniel Craig. Yeah, leave it to him.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Whereas you should learn how to shine your light. You should learn how to do great work and learn to speak for it too.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  And, and, and take responsibility for it. Don't, don't look at it as, oh, that's not, that's not important. Don't look at it as, oh, that's, I'll leave that to other people to create training opportunities for me. No, go learn this yourself. Uh, no one's gonna come in and, and just teach you. You should, you should take the initiative and, and learn it because it's a human skill.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Am I right in saying there's two forms of communication, listening and speaking? Or are there more?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Well, I feel there's those two that happen. I, I think there's also writing. That's another form of communication. And I, I, those are the three quadrants I think of it in.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  I was reading another study that said ninety-six percent of people think they're good listeners.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  Do you agree?

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Do you want to try a game?

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  To see how you feel with listening.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  So this is a really fun game to play at home. If you want to get a sense of where you sit when it comes to listening. So we're just gonna talk. I'm gonna start a conversation as if, uh, we're just gonna create a mock moment about where we're gonna go to eat. Okay. But you have to continue the conversation with me as I'm having it with you by starting your sentence with the letter of my last word. So it's called last word, last letter.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Right, okay.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  So whatever my last word is, you have to think about the last letter and then start the new sentence with the last letter of the last word.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  And we're gonna continue the conversation.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  You ready?

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Let's do it. I've never done this before.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. I have.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Listen, Jay, I can't wait tonight to, to find the best Korean barbecue restaurant in L A.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  And I feel like I have a good sense of them, but I want to know what kind of cuisine you like.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Every Korean cuisine to me is fantastic, but I especially love, I love Kobe beef. I, I love it when you grill it on the barbecue yourself. I love being able to, to dine with that kind of style. So you cook it yourself.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Feeling a little

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  confused about where to go. I think there's a few people on my team that I'd have to speak to. And I think they might have a good sense of where we will be able to find that kind of food because I'm plant-based. So I don't, yeah, so I wouldn't know. So I need to go and talk to a few people on my team and check in with them as to what their top recommendations are when it comes to that.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  That's great. Because now I've learned something about you too. And you can also grill mushrooms. We can grill eggplant. We can cook so many different things. So don't feel like you can't go to a great Korean barbecue place because there's so many ways to do it.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  So you see with this simple game that we're playing, did it feel cognitively difficult?

• 27:35Speaker 00

  It was different.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  It's different, right?

• 27:36Speaker 00

  It's very different.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  And as you.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Because I'm listening for the last word.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  I then have to listen for the last letter.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  I then have to pause to actually think about what I'm gonna say.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yes. So what are you doing then as a result of this game? So as you're playing this at home, the best way to do it is after you played it, just sit down and write on a scale of one to 10, how hard was it? And if it was really hard, write 10. If it was really easy, you can do this in your sleep, then write one. But it gives you an indicator of how well you listen. Because if you find it really difficult, it's difficult because often when people are speaking, we're already thinking about our response that we want to give.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Whereas this game forces you, you can't think of what you want to say until I finish. So I'm listening to every word you're saying and then once you finish, then I can form my sentence. That's how I learned to listen better. Because when I first played this, I wasn't just pausing. I stumbled and I couldn't continue the conversation because I was so in my head.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  And I gave you a more honest answer. So when you ended the line with an F and I went, I'm feeling a little confused about where, uh, that was the, the most honest emotional response. Because if you, if we hadn't had practiced that, my response would have been like, oh, that's awesome, man. Cool. That's great. Like, yeah, I'll ask one of the team, you know, and it, and it just, it actually would have lost all the value of the conversation.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  Because now I'm not only present from an auditory perspective, I'm not present from an emotional perspective. Because it was good for me to say, hey, I'm a little confused actually about where we could go for that in L A. Because I'm plant-based, I don't really know. And, and we got into a conversation that I felt was different. So I like that. I like that a lot.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  I, I think it's such a wonderful game that makes you more present because we, we, we see the posts on Instagram, right? Be more present. Be present today with your kids and your loved ones. But how do you do that pragmatically? This is just such a fun little hack to play with. And again, just do it tonight at a conversation with your partner and just force yourself. I've got to continue the conversation. But I have to just start my sentence with the last word and last letter of their sentence.

• 29:44Speaker 00

  I'm excited for people to try that.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  And then I'll, I'll add on another thing here to make it really pragmatic because there's four modalities for listening. Right? And that game highlights the modality of the words. You're really focusing on the words of what they're saying here. But that's, that's one component. So I think that's the, the most common component we all listen to. But if you just hear words alone, if I say the words, that's fine, and I say in a neutral way, well, that's a meaning. But I could say it differently with my voice. So if I say, that's fine, probably isn't fine. It sounds a little bit, a little bit, there's a little bit of, a little bit upset there. And I can say, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's, that's probably fine, right? Or that's fine, right? So you're questioning it. Like, is it really?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  So again, you can also listen to the vocal changes. So as you get better with that game, don't just listen to the words. Listen to the vocal changes.

• 30:34Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  That says a lot. Someone who normally speaks in a very calm way, speaking fast, they're nervous. There's something's going on there. To me, that's a thread, right? Or sometimes you can listen to the body language. Someone who's very confident and, and then you see them on a day, they're, they're wringing their hands while they're talking. That's a thread. And if you see that thread paired with a vocal thread, paired with certain language, that's a cluster. And now if you see a cluster, lean into that. And that's how you make people feel so heard, so seen, so understood. And as you listen to the words, vocal changes, the body language changes, you train yourself to see these things. You, you, you'll start to learn, there are so many opportunities for us to be able to be there for the people we love.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  For the people we serve, it could be a client. And you, you just reflect back, hey, it, it looks like it's not fine.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Do you want to talk about it? And you just open the door. It's up to them whether or not they want to walk through. No one does that anymore. I rarely see people be able to listen on these layers, which then never unlocks the fourth. Because as you listen to the words more carefully, the voice and the body language, now you get a sense of how people feel. Now you go, oh, okay. I can sense they're, actually, I can sense they're excited to talk about this. So I'm going to ask more questions about it to join in on the excitement with them, to share the excitement with them. Or there's some sadness here. Maybe I'll, I'll open the door and see if they want to chat about it. So start with buffalo, but then recognize there are other layers here. And as you peel back these layers, and that's what you do so well, is that you notice it in people. And I see it in your interviews. You see it in people and you go, ah.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  And then the next time you talk, you pull on that. And you go, hey, I noticed that before. And then, oh, it's beautiful. But it's a skill anybody can learn.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  It's not just Jay or me. Everybody can learn this.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  And this episode is brought to you by AG1. When it comes to looking after ourselves, consistency will always matter more than complexity. The best routines are the ones that are easy to keep up. And that's the beauty of AG1. One scoop, once a day, one simple daily health drink foundation that fits easily into your routine. And if you're someone who trains regularly or wants to get more from that routine, there's AG1 Pro. It has the same foundation as Next Gen with added creatine, C A H M B and zinc carnosine. Because a healthy routine doesn't need to take over your life. It just needs to give you something you can do day after day without thinking twice. Go to drinkag1.com/OnPurpose and get a free immune support bundle,

• 33:03Speaker 00

  including vitamin D3 plus K2 with your first subscription of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/OnPurpose. This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything? The perfect pair of pants or the tea you somehow always reach for first? Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy. And that's what Quince does best. One of the things I really like about Quince is that the pieces are just easy. I've been wearing their organic cotton crew neck sweater, the mesh stitch sweater polo, and their European linen utility shirt. And they're all things I can just throw on without having to think too much about putting an outfit together.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  The crew neck is a great everyday staple. The sweater polo feels a little more elevated. And I love the linen shirt when I want something lightweight and easy to layer. What's impressed me across all of them is the quality. You notice it in the fabric, the fit, and even the little details. They feel elevated, but they're still pieces you can actually wear every day. I think the best things in your wardrobe are the things you end up reaching for without even realizing how often you're wearing them. And that's definitely been my experience with Quince. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was on purpose with Jay Shetty. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is brought to you by NutraFol. Your strands go through a lot. Straightening, curling and even brushing can contribute to breakage over time, which can make it feel like your hair just won't grow past a certain point. That's why NutraFol created a new way to strengthen strands and defend against daily damage. Meet NutraFol Strand Serum, a powerful new formula designed to reduce breakage for stronger hair that can grow longer. It's powered by dual fusion complex technology, combining a replenishing oil phase and a strengthening water phase to protect thinning strands.

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• 35:54Speaker 00

  So the fall flavors you love really come through with nothing in the way. Like there's no bleached or bromated flowers or high fructose corn syrup in any of their delicious baked goods. And they can help you get ahead of cold season with immunity shots, herbal teas, lozenges and supplements. Shop fall flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Market. Makes everything so much more meaningful. The last statistic that I read that I wanted to share with you is only 16% of employees feel their last conversation with their manager was meaningful. And I wanted to ask you, how do we speak in a way that people actually listen and create meaning? Because I think that's what we're looking for from every interaction. We're looking for,

• 36:37Speaker 00

  like even when you're coming here today, I want to have a meaningful conversation with you. When I speak to someone, even if we're not thinking it directly at the forefront of our mind, what we're really hoping for is I hope that we have a meaningful exchange. And by the way, meaning can be fun. It can be happy. It can be joyful. It can be deep. It doesn't have to be serious. Talk to me about that. How do we speak in a way that people actually listen and we have a meaningful connection?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  They're two different things. I, I think speaking in a way that people will listen is you learning how to play your instrument in a way that engages others, that has variety, that doesn't fall victim to monotony. If you don't play with your instrument at all, being your body language and your voice, then your content better be damn good what you're saying. You better be telling me the meaning of life. Okay, right. Then, then I'm all ears. I don't care how you talk, right? But if it's not 10 out of 10 content at all times, then you're going to engage me. If you want me to be more engaged, you need to be more engaging. It's the reality of the situation. It's again, it's a, I, I, I love this metaphor. You could have the greatest music written by Beethoven, but if you don't play it well, it won't be perceived that way.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  So do your work and do your, your, your content or maybe it's your expertise or the gifts and talents that you have. Do it justice. Learn how to play the music. Learn how to play with your instrument well. The depth, it's about taking the conversation further. People don't feel heard when you don't pull on the thread at all. So someone comes into the manager's office, hey, I'm feeling really stressed. I'm feeling overworked. I'm feeling like I, you know, having to work overtime. I'm staying back after hours. And then the manager might just say, oh, great. No, thank you for sharing that.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  What we just said before, how do you make them feel like there's depth, like there's connection, like you care? Is simply now recognizing and seeing how defeated they sound and look. And then asking the question and reflecting, hey, tell me more about that. What's causing that? So to me, it's a mindset of curiosity when you notice the clusters. So when you notice those clusters, be really curious in those moments. Anytime there's a peak emotion, whether it be sadness or frustration or even happiness, learn to develop your senses so that when you sense that, you automatically now ask three follow up questions, regardless of what that thing is.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  So if it's excitement, then just go, hey, you sound really excited. What's going on? Something's happening. So now you get to share in their joy. So they might say, oh, Vin, I just bought three alpacas. Follow up.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Don't end it there and go, oh, that's really cool. I've always thought about alpacas and now you're making it out you.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  No, no, keep it on them. Three questions at least. So tell me, what, what, what's the thing you learned about alpacas that, that's been awesome? Oh, Vin, did you know they poo in one spot only? And that you can use their poo immediately as manure? And this is true conversation. Like, yeah, it's just, oh, wow, that's amazing. So you can use their poo straight away. You don't have to, no, you just mix it with water and you chuck it in. That is when people feel like, oh, man, you really care. And all it takes is learning the sensitivity to be able to listen to those modalities, regardless of the emotion, once you sense it, three follow up questions there that makes sense. Just three. Oh gosh, and that alone will just make people feel, and then don't be afraid to share yours.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  That, that's how you can speak without feeling like you're taking over. Because you, you recognize, you sense the peak emotion, three questions on theirs, and now you can share two.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great example. I, I love the, I love the rule of three questions. Because we're so used to someone sharing one thing and then we go back.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  And it's just, all of a sudden, like you said, you feel like, you may not even be conscious of it, but you are taking over. And you've just. Maybe not undermine, maybe that's a strong word, but you've made the other person feel that their experience now stops there. And now it's about your experience, even if it's of alpacas and the same thing or whatever it may be.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  I don't find that people tend to do this and take over with with ill intent. It's because we wanna connect. I want the other person to know that I've also got pets. I've got chickens at home, right? But unintentionally, you've then just created disconnect.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  When you're trying for connection, which is the unfortunate thing, is that we we try for it, yet we we we fail at it. And what it goes back again, Jay, is that, you know, on our journey, I don't know about you and and and podcasting and but I've had to learn this. And I think people have this sense of I'm either good at it or I'm not. So no, no, stop. It's it's like thi- this is a skill that you can learn.

• 41:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  And I think that's what I I try to do is break it down into the most simple forms. Learn how to use your instrument, which is your voice and your body. And then learn how to play great music, which is storytelling. And then learn how to appreciate other people's music. Learn how to listen to the music that other people are playing. Learn how to listen to the little nuances in the music they're playing. Learn how to push further so they might play songs they've never played for anybody. That you may be the first to hear, which then may inspire you to play songs you didn't even know you had. That's why these conversations are so beautiful, because I don't know where it's going. But it's based on you listening so well, you finding something, and then us just going on the journey of conversational discovery.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I love that. And I love the way you've broken down those those three. I think the first thing people are worried about when it comes to that is how do I make a good first impression? And people are scared. How am I gonna be judged? How am I gonna be perceived? Do I fit in? Do I belong? Am I interesting? When someone's going to a networking event, they're coming into an interview, they're going along to a new group of friends, maybe even just a friend's party, and there's gonna be more people there. How can people feel confident that they're making a good first impression?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  I think one of the most wonderful ways is to meet people where they are. And this is why something I focus so much on when I'm teaching my students is you you you have to stretch your instrument, play with your voice. Try things with your voice you never tried before. If you're quiet, try being louder. But if you're really loud all the time, try being a little softer and seeing what that does. So you so you you stretch in every sense, like yoga. You you keep stretching and then you'll have a range of motion that you didn't have before. So then when you're going into these networking functions with a larger range of motion, which more access to your instrument, now you can access all the keys on the instrument. Then when you meet people, you go, oh, okay, so this group, quite loud and rowdy. Okay, so they're fun group.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  And you may avoid them in the past, but because now you've got access to your entire instrument, meet them where they are. So if you wanna make a good impression with that group, then be more like them. And then people immediately go, oh, but that's fake and phony. That's not fake and phony. That's you adjusting yourself to better meet people where they are, which is to me an incredible sign of a great communicator. Because I'm not just gonna be in my world going, I'm not gonna do what you do. You just have to meet me where I am. You're being you're being considerate. They're having a great time, great, so then I'll match them where they are. But you don't have to stay there. So if you're meeting a group that's really quiet, you're naturally really loud, that's okay. Meet them where they are. So come in about, hey, my name's Vin. I just wanna introduce myself. Do you mind if I join the conversation? Meet them where they are and then slowly take them to where you wanna go.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  And slowly add a little more volume, bring a little more life to your body language. That that to me is the most powerful tip because it's context dependent. It's not saying always meet somebody with a firm grip, always smile when you walk in, or because it's it's so contextual.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  I couldn't agree with you more. And you could walk into a room with a big smile on your face and it's the wrong room.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Don't do it at a funeral.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Right? Because they'll think you murdered the person.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  I think you murdered the person, yeah.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and and the firm grip handshake point is so true.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Some people shake softly. I I'm not gonna death grip them.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Right? You know, I'm gonna, you know, I'll I'll then I'll return that because I sensed it. Because maybe they're a soft, they're someone who's softer. Because the goal is not who has the more powerful handshake. The goal is connection. That's the goal. And I think that's why we need to really be familiar with the instrument, learn how to play it in every single way. Be comfortable with using your hand gestures. Gosh, some of my students are afraid to even use their hands. So if you're afraid to even use it, you don't have that range of motion, you're never gonna use it.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  So it's it's wild that we were born with the ability to do all of this, Jay. I mean, my daughter, who's two, she can play all the notes, sing all the songs, move in ridiculous ways. She bops to everything. It's beautiful. But then as we grow older, we start to we start to lose the music. We start to lose the presence, we lose the movement because we're afraid of what other people think. Most people aren't thinking about you, though.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  And people don't have the same perception either. I was thinking that a lot of the time we walk into a room and let's say it's a quiet room. And then someone really loud comes into that conversation and they seem to be owning the conversation. And you walk away thinking, oh, I wish I could be like that person. And the truth is, no one else in the group felt that way. Everyone else actually felt that that person came and disrupted the whole mood. But in your head, you think, oh, that loud person who can kind of navigate the room, they look like the most powerful. And so sometimes what I think we believe or perceive as powerful in a room isn't what everyone else perceives as powerful. Sometimes people feel that person was abrasive or arrogant or show, you know, showing off or whatever it may be.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  And so the way you perceive people is also not the way everyone else perceives people.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  And so it's important to recognize that you're almost going into a room, finding the people who are going to be a match with you, rather than going, oh, that's impressive and that's not.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  I feel like what you're teasing out there is emotional intelligence. So much of emotional intelligence come, I really believe, comes down to listening. Because you have to better read the moment. Because if you're playing that, if you are that loud person, that loud person, A, no one's told them. B, they don't watch other people as they're communicating. Because if all of a sudden I'm really loud now, and I I just noticed your eyes widened, right? But I I can sense that because I'm I'm learning to look for that. If you have that ability to listen now with your eyes, your heart, your mind, your ears, now you know when you're being too much. Now you know when you're being too little and you need to be bigger, otherwise you're gonna be invisible. So much of that

• 47:04Speaker 01

  helps when you're having a first impression because in some rooms, being quiet, being calm and being composed, that's the best first impression you can make. In other rooms, if you're not loud enough, no one hears you. And it's so interesting because people like to make these blanket statements because it makes a great social media video. It's like the calmest person is the quietest person who says the least. Yeah, in some contexts. In others, it's the person who tells the best story, who's the most charismatic that owns that room.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  That's why I I think now I'm so conscious of when I'm sharing advice with people. Share advice that encourages the person to develop a skill to work out how they can improve themselves as opposed to giving a given formula. Because I think what I've learned in writing this is that what I've avoided, Jay, is here are the top ten things you should do. Because that ten, top ten things is me going from, oh, I've I've taught all these students now, what's the most common things? But I worry about that because general advice leads to general results. Whereas what I'm hoping to encourage people to listen is that go away and play that buffalo game and then check with yourself. Were you thinking those internal thoughts? Were you worried about, oh, is that is that too big of a?

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Write down what you could do to improve the next time.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Listening, what what are you not good at listening with? Are you good at listening with your eyes? Are you not? So you create your own list of ten things. Because once you have your own list of ten things, exponential results now. It's a list made for you as opposed to a generic one you ask ChatGPT for.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  I actually fully agree with you and I'm glad you're doing that in your book and in your work because I remember when I came to the States ten years ago and I was speaking on stages. And most people who sit under any category of motivational speaking or inspirational speaking, they were much bigger than me and spoke bigger than me. And what I mean by that is they had a bigger physical presence. I'm a smaller human in general.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  You're so tall.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  I'm not that tall. I'm like, yeah, I mean, I think sometimes when people meet me in person, they're like, I thought you were taller on life.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Oh, really? People think I'm shorter.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Really? Yeah, you're you're super tall. Uh, and then the other one was like this idea of people were like bigger with their voice on stage. And even when I'm on stage and I've done huge audiences, I'm not that loud. Because it's just not who I am and it's not how I wanna use my instrument. And I, in the beginning, started to think, do I need to be one of these people that's like, you can do anything? You can. And I was like, but that's just, I can do that if I wanted to from a capability perspective. But it's not how I feel I want to resonate with the person I'm talking to. And that's not my way of motivating someone, inspiring them. And I started to realise that, oh, I enjoyed being the quieter, thoughtful, calmer person on stage,

• 49:56Speaker 00

  rather than the, you can break through any wall, and there's nothing wrong with that. I like it. I actually love listening to stuff like that.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  But that's not me and that's not who I want to be. And so what you're saying to me is if someone had said to me, Jay, you need to, you know, ramp it up. You need to speed up at the end of your speech and you need, I would have been like, yeah, but it doesn't fit. Like it doesn't feel good.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  It's taste. You have a certain flavour. You have a certain genre of music you like to play. However, I believe you've explored it.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  You're someone who has gone and explored all the different flavours. So the way that I like to think about it, especially if you're sitting there and you're thinking, well, where do I begin? Where do I start? If I, if I don't see myself as a great communicator, how can I think about this whole journey? What do I do? Well, it's like, think about a great chef. How does a great chef become a great chef? So when you're new at cooking, well, you copy the ingredients from a great chef.

• 50:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  So go taste the food and go experience other speakers and see which speaker you like. Maybe you do like the one that says, you gotta go do it, right? Maybe you do like that. Maybe you like someone who's more calm. Someone who's much more composed and relaxed. Go experience all the flavours. Find which chefs you like. Find three to five. And then break down their behaviours. What about it do you like? And that's why I break down the behaviours in the book so that as you watch these speakers now, you can break down all the body language behaviours or the vocal behaviours. Once you do that, then start to emulate. Try it on. I tried on Tony Robbins. That was not me. But that's okay. How did I know that wasn't me? Because I tried it. So don't sit there and judge it. How can you know what a dish tastes like if you've never taken a spoonful of and ate it?

• 51:33Speaker 01

  You'll be shocked at what things you actually like, but you've never tried. Right? I used to thought being playful is being too silly. Now I love being playful.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Right? I love the taste of that flavour. So then as you go on that journey of finding the great chefs with the clarity, breaking down their behaviours of voice and body language and types of stories, all of that, then emulate and go through a period of emulation. And then after you go through that emulation, you'll become confident. You'll start to go, oh, I can, yeah, I can, I can do my version of Jay or my version of him. Then as you get confident, a chef gets confident with the dish, what do they do now? I'm gonna add a little shallot, add some shallot oil. Gosh, that enhances everything. I'm gonna add triple the garlic. I don't care if it makes me fart. And so you go harder with that, right? Spice. Now you're making it your own. So then you start to create this unique taste, this unique flavour, which you've created now for you.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  But the only way to get to that is through a journey of exploration.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  I agree with that.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Doing things you've never done before, trying things you've never done before. Otherwise, what happens? You just stick to the way you've been talking because you've learned that way from mum and dad and you repeat it for forty years and that's all you're gonna do now. There are so many other ways to play. Go test, go experiment, go explore. Right? So I think that's, that's a really important message.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Yes, I love that message and I can relate to it. In my journey, I spent a lot of time studying stand-up comics. Because when I'm on stage, I love being funny and playful and silly. And I don't do that on a podcast because I need an audience to do that. I'm not someone who, I'm not gonna tell a joke, it needs to be back and forth. But when I'm on stage, I love to be playful. I love to have fun with the audience. I love to be interactive. And so I spent years watching stand-up comedians and how they did it. And there were some that did crowd work and that was one flavour, which I love. I love crowd work. There was another that literally would bring a piece of content up, i.e. a video or a book, and they'd read from it and then they'd react funnily to it.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  And so they'd play a video and pause it and then say something funny and play it and pause it.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  That's a really good technique because now you're not having to be funny. You're getting to respond to something that could spark ideas. And I was like, they could sometimes be reading from a book and be like, oh god, I'm gonna rip that page out, whatever, you know? And I was like, oh, that's a, that's a medium, that's a flavour. And so I think when it comes to speaking and communication, you've got comedians, you've got musicians, some. If you've ever watched Adele in between singing a song, Adele is the funniest person ever. Like you would wish you were at a bar with her on a Friday night, having a drink, hanging out. Because that's how she makes you feel in between these insane songs and like belting at the top of her lungs.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Emotional and depth. And then humour.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  And then humour.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  Spectacular. And it's like she does it so effortlessly. The point is you can learn this from so many different people and places.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  You're talking about in food and I'm thinking about it as clothes. You know, there used to be a time when every guy was just wearing skinny jeans.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  Now generally men are not wearing skinny jeans anymore. You may wear a straight leg, you may wear a bootcut, you may wear a white leg. But it's like, if you've never tried it on, you'll never know whether it looks good on you. And so I think, I absolutely agree with you. You have to go and try it on. And if you just stay in your own style that you still dressed as when you were sixteen, then, then you're, you're gonna be that person that you were at sixteen.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  I did that. In the fashion sense, I was so afraid to try on new clothes because what am I gonna say? I say, oh, that's not me. And so I think, I think something I would love to say here is that, don't be so attached to who you are in the present. You don't give the future version of you a chance. Whether it be the way you dress, to the way you communicate, to the career path that you're on. Don't be so attached to this. I, I learnt such a beautiful lesson from, from a mentor and a dear friend. His name's Adam Chaya. He, he created Suri. And I was, I was sitting, I was sitting on the train with him once, learning from him. And he shared this beautiful metaphor with me and he said, then life is like a great book. Many different chapters that nobody saw coming. Right? Because don't you hate it when you're reading a book and it's just so predictable?

• 55:34Speaker 01

  You know exactly what's gonna happen? Don't you love it when you change chapter? You're like, whoa, I didn't realise, whoa, I got, right? And you just, you just fall so in love with it because of the astonishment and the surprise. Same thing with your life. Be so careful that we don't end up rewriting the same darn chapter over and over and over again and wonder why we're miserable. Is because we're repeating behaviours from a past chapter that served us at some point. Because I, I wanna share some love to my, my, my fellow introverts out there. Because some people go, oh, but I'm really quiet and I hate that quiet part about it. No, don't, don't, don't be upset about that. Because at some point, that quiet behaviour served you. That's why you did it. For me, it was because I was being bullied.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  So being quiet, being smaller, means you didn't get picked on and it worked. So it served you in a chapter of life. The danger is, you take the behaviours from a previous chapter and you continue to repeat them in every single future chapter when you've already entered a new environment. You've stepped into a different part of your life. So I think, I think just don't be so attached to who you are in the present. Give the future version of you a chance. Because you could look good in flames.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  It could come back, which it kinda has.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it kinda has, it kinda has.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 00

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• 57:34Speaker 00

  Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. Let's talk about introverts a bit. I imagine there are a lot of people who identify as being introverts, who come to you, come to your work, who really get lots of value from this book, who, who come to our show to understand how they can improve their life, how they can be better. If someone feels that they're constantly interrupted in the workplace, what do they do so that people actually stop and listen?

• 58:00Speaker 01

  The reason why I also believe people interrupt is because you're easy to interrupt. That's why they do it. If you're not easy to interrupt, at least you're making, you're creating more friction if they do wanna interrupt you. So there's, there's two things I think of. I think of visual presence and vocal presence.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  Tell me about those.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Well, if you've got low vocal presence, that means I've got really quiet volume. So I could be sharing an idea like this. So vocally, I've got very low levels of presence. And then again, if, body language wise, if I've got really small body language, again, you know, your shoulders come in and your hands are in your lap, they're not above the table. And yeah, I've got an idea I'd love to share with you, Jay. I think it's, I think it's really powerful if we created some funny skits for the book launch. That version of me is so easy to interrupt, so easy to interrupt. So when I think about, if you want to stop people from interrupting you, regardless of whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, it's really about you learning how to radiate more vocal presence and visual presence. So if you're in a meeting and you don't want people to interrupt you, stand when it's your turn to talk.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  And people go, oh, but it's weird if everyone's sitting and it's only weird if you make it weird. So before you stand, you can simply say, hey everyone, I've been sitting all day. Do you mind if I stand while I share my ideas? Oh, of course, they're not gonna say, sit down, Ben, no one stands in this meeting. So you stand, so you stand. So guess what? When you're standing, visual presence, hand gestures, elbows away from your body, speaking with hand gestures, strong levels of volume, give good eye contact. As you're sharing an idea, share and pause. And when you're standing and you pause, no one interrupts you. Why? Because we all understand if that person's still standing, they're still talking. Often people interrupt you again, not only because you're easy to interrupt, but because they think you're done.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  So I think you have to give visual signals and auditory signals that, hey, I'm in command right now. Hey, I have the authority right now and I'm the one that's still speaking. So I think simple things you can do immediately is enhance the vocal presence and physical presence. And that's that elusive thing people call like executive presence. It's just voice and body.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  Tell me about the physical presence piece because I feel most people, even if they stand up, they put their hands down by their side. And you've, I've seen this in your videos.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  What not to do, right?

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, what not to do.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  And so talk to me about visual presence because I think vocal presence, we understand, we can speak louder. I believe we understand tone a bit better than we understand the body because we hear tone and we feel tone.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  If you want to add more emotion into your voice, move your face. So your face is the remote control that adds emotion into your voice.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Tell me more about that before we do vocal, because I like that.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  What's a thing that people are afraid of? A monotone voice. What they don't realise is a monotone, well, try, try, try this with me, okay?

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  I've, I've got a, I've got a dog, his name's Link, and he's never met a shoe he doesn't love to eat. Okay, so it's a love hate relationship with my dog. So I want you in a moment with your hands, palm face up. I want you to say, Link, stop doing that. Okay, so my dog's name's Link. So say, Link, stop doing that. I'll count you down with your hand face up. So in three, two, one, go.

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  Link, stop doing that.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Perfect. Now I want you to just pay attention to how your voice sounded. Now I want you to do it again, but I want you to cross your hands forward like this, palms face down. So say the same thing, Link, stop doing that, hands face down. Okay, so in three, two.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  Link, stop doing that.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Do you notice what happened to your voice?

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  It was stronger, it was louder.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Even as I was thinking about it.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  Even when you were saying to me what to do, even when I was thinking about it, I know I'm gonna do this differently already.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? What that proves is that I didn't tell you what to do with your voice. But what it tells us is that universally, no matter where I go in the world and I do this, there's a difference. It teaches us the lesson that your, your voice is connected to your body and your body's connected to your voice. So everyone's afraid of this monotone voice without realising that a monotone voice comes from a monotone body. And your face is a part of body language. So let's talk about face, right?

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  The thing that people fall victim to is an RBF. You can Google that, what that means if you want, but we'll just say it's a resting blank face.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  So if I've got a resting blank face, now all of a sudden you don't hear many emotions from me. It's because I'm not showing any emotion. But the moment I smile, your face is the remote control. And I think that is such an important layer of communication because people are looking to your face for the context behind what you're saying.

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  So is this person happy about what they said? Are they frustrated about it? And when we know this from body language experts all around the world, that people believe your body language more than they believe the words. Because it's easy to lie with our words, harder to lie with your body language.

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Because our face gives it away as well. We're used to that, yeah.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  It does. And that's how we sense things, right? That's why we're so afraid of psychopaths because they're able to be a cunning individual while smiling at you. So that disconnect creates so much fear in us because, oh my goodness, that's so scary. But, but I think beware of not stretching your face and using your face, falling victim to RBF because you've never learned the value of emoting with your face. So then you fall victim to RBF. I had RBF for a very long time in my life. And, and, and here's the clue, if you're a fellow RBF'er, people always come to you and say, hey, is everything all right? When you feel completely fine, when you're completely fine, they're like, hey, is everything okay?

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  It used to happen to me all the time. And I was like, I'm having a really good day. And now I'm pissed because everybody's asking me this. So now I'm annoyed. But it's because your face is communicating all the time.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  So I think, I think that that's a really important part of communication is that, you know, if you want more authority, then maybe you should have a more of a serious face. But for some people, they're always smiling. And then they ask me, they go, Vin, people don't take me seriously. Because you never look serious. And then as a result of you never looking serious, you never sound serious.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Whereas I can create a very serious sound if I start to use assertive body language and I start to be more still with my face. Notice that crazy switch, right? And then I smile and it all goes away.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  And then there's people who, who say to me, Vin, people take me so seriously. They never, they never have fun with me. I try to get them to open up, they never do. I'm like, because you, you're always trying to David Goggan their ass, right? So just stop trying to do that.

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  But we don't have awareness. And we don't have awareness, Jay, because if these are behaviours you've been repeating for 20 years, they've moved from your conscious mind to your subconscious mind. And anything that becomes automatic, behaviours that become automatic in your subconscious mind, now become invisible. That's why I left a lot of blank pages in the book too, right? Not just to make it thick and feel substantial, but rather I want people to go on a journey of self-discovery.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Often you see other people communicate and you make judgements about other people. Oh, that person, either good or bad. Oh, great communicator. Oh, they seem a bit bossy. When's the last time you saw yourself speak? What do you do with your face? I want you to get super excited and interested in you, right? Don't, don't, don't look to me for the answers of what you should be doing with your communication skills. Look within yourself and how you're currently playing your instrument. There's no one better to, that'll help you unlock you than you, right? And that's why what I do in the book is I get them to record a before video right at the start. And then in, in, in every chapter, we learn one lesson. And then we review that one lesson with you.

• 1:05:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, huge.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  So that you're not overwhelmed. You're not thinking about 10 vocal things and five body language things at once. No, no, one vocal foundation at a time. Okay, how do you use that currently? Oh, I don't use that at all. Cool. Maybe it's time to introduce a little more melody in your voice. That's why at the end of it, I hope you fill the whole book and you write down a list that was made for you, that was written by you for you.

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Yes. No, that's really strong. And I can't wait for people to work on that in the book. It does require that much attention. I, I remember my parents were really scared I was gonna be shy. So I went to public speaking drama school from age 11 to age 18. And so every one of my public speaking skills was learned during that time. And then I spent time studying people that I loved watching. And it was fascinating to me because even after doing that, the first time I was filmed, for some reason, this is what I did every time. So I love this idea of filming yourself. And I'm so glad you help people in the book, focus on one thing.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  First thing you do.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's brilliant. You film yourself. And I kept doing this. I'd go, hey, Vin, how's it going? Hope you're doing well today. It's great to have you here. And I'm really happy that we're both connecting today. It's so great to have you on the podcast. And so I just kept doing this.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  You kept doing this?

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  And it was like, if I didn't, totally, kind of clapping, but, and, and almost like, now that we're here together. And then, you know, and it, it was so cringey to watch. And the reason I'm saying that to people, after going through seven years of public speaking experience, speaking for another three to four years after that, multiple stages, and I felt really good about myself. But when I filmed myself for the first time, I saw that that was my most natural thing to do. Now, whether I was nervous that day or the video camera scared me or whatever it was, the point is, if I didn't see it, I would never have been cognizant of it. And I would never have been conscious of why I moved my hand that way. This idea of filming yourself and then adapting, I think, is so big. And even listening to yourself, and I know people always say this, Jay, I

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  hate my voice, I hate the sound of my voice. What do we do? We seem to hate the sound of our voice. We seem to hate the way we use our hands and the way we look. What do we do? Why do we hate ourselves? But what do we do about it?

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  That's a deep question. It's a really deep question. But from a communication standpoint.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, from a communication standpoint.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Communication standpoint, yeah, otherwise we're going into deep life philosophy.

• 1:07:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  I feel that the reason why we hate the way we sound is because when you hear yourself in your own head, you're hearing your voice vibrate through muscle tissue and bone tissue, which creates a more resonant, deeper, richer sound. So to all of us, we sound like Barry White. So you hear yourself, oh, it's like a sexy, deep voice. And then when you hear yourself on a recording, you're not hearing it through the medium of muscle and bone tissue. You're now hearing your voice through the medium of air. So you're, you're hearing, you're hearing the vibration of, and then when it hits your eardrums, through the medium of air, it sounds high pitched. So when you hear yourself, you think, oh God, I don't sound like that. What the hell? It's not that dramatic, but you think to yourself, that's crazy, I don't sound like that. So that difference causes, causes us to shy away from ever listening. Problem number one already.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  I'm so glad I asked you that. I never thought about it. That's such a great answer.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  But that's the reason why. And then the way we look is because where do you look to do your hair every day? Where do you look to do that?

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  The mirror.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  The mirror.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  But the mirror is not how other people see you. The mirror flips you. Whereas people see you the other way around. So when you see yourself on video, you're seeing yourself the way everybody sees you, not the way you see yourself in the mirror. So now you hit twice. That doesn't sound like me. Why do I? Because nobody's face is perfectly symmetrical. So you see it flip, you're like, why is, why is that face? Well, I thought, and then that freaks people out. So now they completely avoid ever listening to themselves or looking at themselves. It's why we don't have that self-awareness. So now that you know this, you're not allowed to avoid it anymore.

• 1:09:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  You're not allowed to avoid it anymore. You have to do it. And you'll be shocked because in five to 10 reps of doing this, you'll normalise it.

• 1:09:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Your ear starts to just acclimate. It recalibrates and you get, that's how I sound. But it's that initial shock without the knowledge that causes people to shy away from it. So don't shy away from it. You sound great. You look great. Learn to love what you got.

• 1:09:26Speaker 00

  What do you do when someone puts you on the spot and your mind goes blank?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Like now?

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. Did I just do that to you? I was like, I just flipped it. I had to ask you that at a shock moment. I was like, he's too prepared.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  Pause. That's what I'm doing right now. I'm giving myself a moment to pause. Why? Because I'm collecting my thoughts. Another tip I can do, again, I'm just trying to talk through exactly how I'm gonna do it, is in what context are you sharing this question? So if someone asks you a question, in what context would you like me to give you some thoughts on this?

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  There's two things that came to mind. So the first one was you're at a networking event or a social gathering. Everyone's going around and they're introducing themselves and saying something fun about themselves, like a fun fact.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  So we're going around and like, hey, I'm Jay. This is my fun fact. Uh, and this is what I do. Hey, I'm Vin. This is my fun fact. This is what I do. Something like that. That kind of moment where it feels like the spotlight's on you. Everyone's listening and it's your moment to shine.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  I gave you part of the strategy in me role-playing with you in this moment. So the first thing is you pause. The second thing is you can ask a question to clarify the question they just asked you. So that you can answer it in more depth to be able to add more value. What am I doing in all of this time? I'm now gonna be able to answer a question that adds more value and I'm, I've got time. Now I can think about what it is that I wanna say.

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  You bought yourself time.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  I bought myself time and I bought myself clarity.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  Yes, which is even more important.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Which is even more important because the reason we also go blank is because someone has asked you a bad question. They've asked you a question that is so high level.

• 1:10:57Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks, Vin.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  That, that, no, my pleasure, my pleasure. My feedback, live, live feedback. We often go blank because it's not a bad question. It was just such a wide question. That causes you to go blank because you're now thinking, wait, in what scenario are they talking about this? This is a work scenario? Is this a friend scenario? Is this a networking stuff? So then your brain starts to race and you freak out and then you go blank. So then to me, in moments where you start to feel that, recognize that, and instead of reaching for an answer straight away, reach for specificity.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  So someone asks you, hey, Vin, how's the marketing campaign going? Is there a part of the marketing campaign specifically you'd like to give me thoughts, me to share some thoughts with you on? Yeah, actually, Vin, it's, it's the Instagram one I wanna focus on. Is there something particular there too? Actually, Vin, the organic post, not the ads. You've just helped create more clarity in that communication than if you just answered off the cuff.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  And you saved you, both of you, time.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Yes. Whereas I think a lot of people sometimes ask questions without clarity themselves. So you're doing both parties a favor. You're buying yourself time. I think another practical tip as well is the networking one in particular that you say, my friends, make sure you've got five interesting things about you in your back pocket, ready to go at all times. Uh, being a great networker requires you to be able to communicate that in thirty seconds. Preparation. That's all about preparation. So don't wait until the moment to, to go, oh, I can't think on the spot. Nobody does. Anybody who's great at it on the spot, they've had that conversation before.

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  They've said it before and that's why they've mastered it. That's why it seems so effortless. So just have five things in your back pocket, ready to go. So again, just in summation, the, the tactic there, when you go blank, A, pause, recollect. Take that panic and turn it into clarity and follow up with a couple of questions and then answer the question the person wanted. And you both win and you get to move past that freezing moment with ease and elegance and you say, oh, that person's such a pro. Nope, they just got more clarity.

• 1:12:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like that.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  And then if they ask a lot of clarity and you don't know the answer, then you're screwed.

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now you're screwed. Yeah. Now, now, now run.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  And on the other side, be as prepared as Vin is for the apocalypse. Be, be as prepared.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  Because that's how it feels in that moment when the spotlight's on you. So you just talked about the power of a pause, which we talked about last time. And so we have that and people can go back and watch that. But this idea of a power of a pause, how do we not feel the pressure to fill silences in a conversation? I feel like if something goes quiet, we all feel like we're responsible or this is boring or this is, we're not really connecting. When actually pause can be really powerful, especially if someone's thinking or reflecting.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  I find that people tend to feel that because they're just unfamiliar with it. That's all. The feelings of that is really strong when you're just really unfamiliar with the pause. And that's what I hear from students who don't pause. That's what I hear from students who are uncomfortable with it because they're unfamiliar with it. The same thing. It's, we bring it back to clothes, right? I used to think wearing something like this is too loud. Oh, this is crazy. I can't wear that. Whereas now I'm more familiar. I love it when I get to wear something that stands out a little bit and I really enjoy it. It's the same thing. Wearing glasses with a bit of silver on the side. I used to think, oh, that's too much, too flashy, he's gonna shut. Now I like it. You've got to become more familiar with it. If you wanna be comfortable with,

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  it could be exercising, it could be journaling, it could be any practice. How do you become more comfortable with it? Do it more. It's such an unsexy answer that people don't wanna hear. But that's how you become more comfortable is you become more familiar. And then here's the cherry on top. So once you become more comfortable, you become more familiar, guess what? Now it's just something you do.

• 1:14:37Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Because it's a part of who you are. Whereas we're so quick to go, no, I feel weird doing it. Because you haven't done it enough. And again, it's that attachment to our current selves so that we never give that future version a chance. You gotta give that a go. You gotta write some new chapters. If you don't like the chapter, stop rewriting it. I think people need to realize, like, like the, the journey of me writing this book and I, I'm so excited about your book too. Because when you're writing a book, the coolest feeling is when you go, I can end this chapter whenever I want.

• 1:15:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  I can make this story mean whatever I want. So while we can't control what happens to us in life, we can control what those stories mean. If I'm tired of this chapter of talking about the pause, I can just start a new chapter. I hope people realize that a lot of people now have given away their pens. Take your pen back. You're the author of your own story. You're the author. You get to decide when you wanna write a new chapter. You get to decide when you end new chapter. You get to decide. You get to decide how you use your voice in the future, future chapters, how you storytell, how you listen. Even if you haven't listened well for forty years of your life and you didn't make people feel seen and loved and cared for, start now.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  It's not too late. You've got many chapters left. Learn chapters where you're the, you're the most beautiful listener in your group, in your, in your friendship ring. Where you're the most charismatic, where you get to own the attention, even if you didn't for the last forty years. I think people too easily give away their pens. Uh, you write my story. You tell me what I can't do. You tell me what this story means.

• 1:16:16Speaker 00

  I love the idea of taking an idea from the book and then practicing it for seven days. Like the idea of taking a tool and saying, this is what I'm gonna be for the next seven days. I'm gonna be a great listener. I'm gonna practice just speaking in this way. I'm gonna play with, I, I love that idea because I think that is how the way you build a, a full toolkit. Is that you're gonna practice these small tools, week on week on week on week until they compound. Can you sound confident when you're nervous?

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Think of these three words.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  We've got look, feel and sound. Which one do you think is the hardest to control? Either the way you look, the way you feel and the way you sound?

• 1:16:55Speaker 00

  Feel.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Correct. I believe that too. I might be wrong. You might be wrong. That's what I believe. When you wanna be more confident, which one do you reach for? I wish I.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  Felt more confident. Yes.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  So we go for the thing that's the hardest to reach for. So in a moment before, I wish I felt more confident. Before a date, I wish I felt more confident. What the hell? So you're reaching for emotional mastery, which very few people have in the world, the most difficult thing to do. What's easier to reach for? The way you look and the way you sound. So you can sound more confident, right? You can. We all can. So if you're speaking at a very low volume, there's less, there's less resonance in your body. You feel less powerful because there's less vibration in you. Increase your volume a little. Move it from a three to a five. So voice, right? You can do more volume, more melody. Play with the keys a little more. Be a little more playful, more pauses. Right? So simple things you can do with your voice. You can control that way more easily than feeling.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  The way you look, posture, shoulders down and back, smile on your face, good eye contact. So as you start to control the way you look and the way you, you, you sound, inevitably it impacts the way you feel.

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Because now you're sending so many signals to your brain that I'm confident, I'm confident, I'm confident. So once you change the way you look, it has an impact on the way you feel. Once you change the way you sound, it has an impact on the way you feel. That's how you influence the feeling by going for the easier choices.

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  Yes, I can agree more.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  So reach for that. So when I'm backstage, I'm talking to myself, I'm I'm a little louder. I'm moving my body and and then as I come out, I focus on those two things and the feeling comes through.

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  You're making me remember two moments in my life where. So the first was, this is before I have released a single piece of content online. So we're talking about twenty fourteen. Which is what, like twelve years ago, I'd been asked to speak in front of a thousand of my colleagues at our summer company event. I don't have any clout or standing or authority in the company. I'm at the same level as everyone else in the audience. If not, everyone in the audience is more senior to me at the company. I've been at the company for like six months. But because I was able to teach meditation and mindfulness and because I was doing well in my role, I was asked to speak. And so anyway, I'm speaking in front of a thousand people and I'm right in between the company UK CEO.

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  And the Rugby World Cup winner, Will Greenwood. And I'm watching them and I'm just thinking, gosh, what am I gonna say to keep everyone's attention? I'm nervous. I'm really nervous. I'm really, really nervous. And you're so right, I couldn't change how I felt because. I couldn't convince myself that I deserved to be on the stage because I've been asked to be there because I am, but then there's a CEO and a. An athlete who's won a world championship. Okay, there's no comparison. Like, I couldn't convince myself that I felt better about it. And all I could do was, what you said, change your look and your sound. And so my look, I changed my body language. I started to breathe deeper. I started to stand up straight. I started to not feel like I was slouched on my chair, watching going, oh, God, this is gonna be a nightmare.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  And all of a sudden, I just said, I'm gonna go back to the room. Let me just stand up straight. Let me feel better from the way I look, changing my look. And from a sound point of view, I was like, I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna start really strong. Because I feel if I win them in the first thirty seconds, then I'll be okay. So I was practicing my first thirty seconds again and again and again and again and again. So that I would sound strong. And you're spot on. I went up there. I felt like I killed it. And the feedback I got was, Jay, we've never heard a thousand people be that pin drop silent in a meditation session. And the feedback we got was insane and just, and it felt so good. And I was like, the feeling comes after.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Speaker 00

  The feeling doesn't come before. And so I gave that example twenty fourteen. Twenty twenty three, I went on my first world tour, three years ago. Before the first show, I was so stressed, my heart was beating fast. I was like, I was feeling like I was about to throw up. At this point, I've spoken on stages for twenty years and I'm still stressed out. And I still felt not confident.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:21:02Speaker 00

  And I couldn't do anything about it. And the only thing I could change was how I stood backstage. How my breathing and nailing the first thirty seconds, which has always been my two ways of doing it. I know that if I start strong, I feel great. And I know if I stand up straight. That even though the Superman pose has been debunked and whatever it may be, it works for me.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it works for me too.

• 1:21:21Speaker 00

  And and so I'm like, if I can do those two things and I can breathe, then I'm pretty good. And I've realized that I still turn to those after all these years of having spoken on stages to tens of thousands of people. And do this professionally, get paid to do it. And so just to give everyone a bit of, you know, hopefully a bit of. Feeling relatable, that it's not like a one day you just walk on stage and you don't feel anything.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  What was the first thing I did when I came to this studio? Do you remember what I did? Went to the toilet?

• 1:21:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Because I'm nervous, because I'm freaking out, I mean that.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  I I feel the same thing, right? Even though we we know each other, we're friends, we're doing this, but I I still felt nervous.

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  So I think a a lot of it is, again, you focus on voice, body language. Let's let's meet Jay where he is and and be there, be playful, connect. There there's a beautiful quote by Coach John Wooden that wraps up this this little part really beautifully where he says. If you focus on the things you can't control, you'll soon lose control of the things you can control. So then you put it in the context of confidence. If you keep trying to focus on the thing you can't control, which is your feeling, and you keep pinpointing on that. Then you lose control of voice and body language. That's when you see people go out there and voice is shaking now and body language is trying. It's because you're focusing on the wrong thing. You're focusing on things you can't control. And that's such a fractal lesson in life.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's it's it's often when I think about my life and the problems I'm going through, I always pull out to that fractal lesson of.

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Well, what can I actually control?

• 1:22:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  So I'll focus on things I can control. And when it comes to communication, it's your voice and your body language. It's why it's the first two parts of the book. I focus so much on it and go in so much detail on it because let's just learn how to use the instrument.

• 1:22:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Once and for all. And then once you learn how to play it. Play all the notes, do every gesture, and then work out, no, that's not me. I'm not gonna do, that's okay. But at least give it all a go. Learn the full array of notes and moves that you can you can do.

• 1:23:13Speaker 00

  I love that. We're gonna go into a segment, Vin, uh, which we started doing called Real Life Scenarios.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  I love it. This is a new segment.

• 1:23:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, these are scenarios sent in from our audience who are listening.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Ah, cool.

• 1:23:22Speaker 00

  And so things that they're going through where communication could help them.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Okay, let's go.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  So Vin, this is the first one. I'm great at texting someone before a date. But in person, I get nervous and suddenly feel like I have nothing interesting to say. How do I stop getting in my head?

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  I haven't dated since two thousand and nine, so please take this with a bucket of salt. Okay, because if I'm going on a date now, I probably would suck. You know what? This is what I would say.

• 1:23:46Speaker 00

  I don't think you would.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  Oh, well, thank you for saying that. I hopefully don't have to. I love my wife very much. I know she's listening. I love you, Paywin. But what I'll say here is, go in with high low buffalo. Do exactly what Jay and I did. Break the mold. Don't go into it, is the classic. Oh, how's your day going? Oh, it's fun, nice to meet you. Oh, what what do you do for work? Just straight in with high low buffalo, nothing work related. Go in with that. And then immediately create six threads, because the the the beauty of high low buffalo is that no one's gonna say anything they're not interested in.

• 1:24:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  So that means you now know three things that matter to them. And there's also vulnerability baked into it. So what does that mean? If you pull on that thread, then it's gonna be the deepest conversation you have on a date. Now you get to know what they're proud of, what they're struggling with, and you also get to know something really interesting about them. That conversation can go in six ways now. You'll never run out of things to talk about. Because maybe you pull on the thread that, oh, you know, that mentor of yours, I could ask now more stories about that mentor. It was there a moment that that meant the most to you. Now we're in a whole new realm. So I think there's there's so much there. Who are the other friends that are there? If you have to pick one more person, who else is meaningful? Boom, we can go there. High low buffalo.

• 1:24:54Speaker 00

  And I I could ask you about your friend who's going through cancer or your cousin and how you first found out about it.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:00Speaker 00

  And how is it going now? Like, we could have had the whole podcast just based on that conversation.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  I found out about it the last time I got on a plane to L A to do the podcast with you.

• 1:25:09Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  I literally was on the plane. She texted me as I took off to do the pod with you.

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  No way.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  But but you see, that moment we just had there.

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Where did that come from? It came from a moment where we created the space and we made it okay for us to both share something vulnerable. Again, not a dating expert, but I would say hollow buffalo that.

• 1:25:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  And then you can thank me later and get three copies of the book. Give one to your friends.

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. All right, second one. When my partner and I argue, I feel like neither of us is actually hearing what the other person is saying. We just keep trying to get our own point across. How do you communicate so the other person hears what you actually mean?

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Don't attack them.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Talk to the situation that is currently happening in front of you. Speak to the situation. So separate. The behavior from them and talk to the situation and then speak to how you feel. And don't point that at the other person and attack them. I think we we tend to attack each other when we're trying to explain feelings, especially with with partners. So I think so much of it is separate it, talk about the situation, how it makes you feel. I think on the receiving end, if you wanna make your partner feel more heard. I know it sounds so basic, it's so trite that it's almost upsetting and offensive. Reflect.

• 1:26:24Speaker 00

  No, it's true.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Learn to just reflect. Learn to just say, hey, I I can tell from you saying that it it seems like you're really upset. Just just reflect back the emotion, reflect back some of the words. That's how you make them feel heard. And if you wanna be heard. Make sure you be careful you're not attacking the person and make sure you're you're addressing the situation. I think that that's how I think about it when I go into arguments. It's not you I'm angry with. It's, ah, unfortunately, I'm really upset with the situation that's happened between us. So I separate that.

• 1:26:50Speaker 00

  I think it's funny because we've heard it for a while, but I don't think we practice it. And that's usually the best advice in the world. Is advice you've heard a million times, it stood the test of time, but we're not doing it.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I still don't sometimes.

• 1:27:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, of course.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Sometimes, you know.

• 1:27:05Speaker 00

  Same, me too. No, but I'm just like, I I don't think it's trite at all. Okay, two more. I'm confident one on one, but in meetings with a lot of people, I barely speak. I have good ideas and things I wanna say, but I get so nervous that I end up never saying anything. How do I get better at speaking up?

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Learn communication frameworks. Because the the thing about people who are in technical roles in particular, I feel this comes from a technical person. Is that we feel that the only form of value is in me explaining how exactly how everything works. And the more I talk, the more value I'm giving. It's not true. In a meeting environment, if you're sitting there with other leaders, the most valuable thing you can give there is distillation and clarity. And I think a very simple framework to just kick you off with is just start with the word, hey, if there's one thing I wanted to share, if there's one thing I had to share would be this. And just share one thing. Start with just sharing one thing. But that way, when you're sharing it with those very words, hey, if I could share one thing, share one thing. And then it's because of the way the sentence is structured,

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  you're protecting yourself from rambling because you're only sharing one thing. So then you're clear, you're concise, you're coherent. That's how you start the journey. So begin by just saying, hey, I'd like to share one thing. And then share just that one thing.

• 1:28:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  So start with that. And then look into communication frameworks. I've got so many on my YouTube channel. So go look up the communication frameworks because if you are winging it, you're gonna ramble, you're gonna go blank, and you're probably gonna say things that are unnecessary. It's not coherent. And then people look at that as, oh, you're not very competent. Oh, you're all over the place. You're a scatterbrain. So one pragmatic thing to start with, lead in with one thing. And just share one thing in every conversation. Just go, hey, I'd love to share a thought. And then share one thought.

• 1:28:48Speaker 00

  The reason why that's a really big takeaway is because I think we listen more when there's a headline before an explanation. And I feel I listen better that way, too. So when you said there's just one thing, I'm ready, I'm prepared. And when we think about headlines, you think about social media, you see a massive headline and then it says link in bio. And then you go click on it because you wanna know more, or you see a thumbnail and a title on YouTube and you click it, or whatever it may be. And so I feel what we don't do in communication is actually what every other form of communication that gets our attention is headlines get attention. So if someone said to me, I figured it out. All of a sudden, I'm like, all right, let's, let's hear what you have to say. But if they just said,

• 1:29:31Speaker 00

  so I think this idea is really good.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's like, okay, now I'm, I'm dealing with it. Yeah, I'm out. Or if they say something along the lines of, so what I'm thinking is, it's like, but I don't know why I should value what you're thinking. Whereas it's like, if the headline was, I put aside three hours yesterday, I figured out the first three parts, here's what I learned. All of a sudden, I'm listening because I get why I should listen to you. And I think a lot of us don't headline. And as soon as you did that, I was like, oh, got it.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  What you were doing there as well is you're making declarative statements, declarative sentences, right? There's two ways to think about this. Oh, what are the two ways to think about this? So again, if it's not one thing, you can go, well, there's one thing I love to share. There's one thought I love to share. There's two ways to think about this approach. Or you can simply say, hey, there are three steps to how we'll get a higher return on ad spend. Now they wanna listen to it because you've created your structure. So the structure not only helps you, I love what you said, Jay, the structure also makes people now wanna lean in. The worst one is when there's no structure and you're all over the place. And so learn to make declarative statements, short sentences that are punchy and start with that. And there's a, there's a really careful thing you wanna be careful of. Who are the people who get promoted the most at work? The people who are the most visible?

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Who are the people who are the most visible? The people who communicate and contribute during meetings. So the reason you're pissed off because Barry got the promotion and you didn't get the promotion is because Barry, though not as smart as you, is more visible than you. And Barry always talks in teams meetings and shares things in a coherent, concise and clear way. So as you learn to do this more, you will be able to be more visible. You'll start to get the opportunities. Otherwise Barry's gonna keep taking your job, mate. Barry's gonna keep getting it and you're gonna hate Barry more and more and more. And you're better looking than Barry. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, ah, damn you, Barry.

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's funny how in a workplace environment, if you talk too much and it's not useful, it works against you.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:31:26Speaker 00

  And if you talk too little, of course, that's not useful anyway, and you're invisible. And then it's that balance between talking about the right thing at the right time and the right way is, is such a profound thing. And I notice it all the time when I'm working with people. I'm like, okay, I know if I spent 30 minutes with them, I'm gonna get so much value. And I know if I spend 10 minutes with you, I'm gonna feel like we need to move on because I'm not getting value. And I, and I think you feel that as a leader, you feel that as a, as a person, you feel that as a team player. And, and I think that's on us to be like, I only wanna share that which is truly critical and important with the right people.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  And then there's another underlying thing here, I think, worth mentioning. And it's really just that the people who, who don't say anything, they have the mindset of, I wanna wait for someone to recognize the greatness that I have within, the contributions that I've made.

• 1:32:16Speaker 00

  And it's a really sincere thing.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  It is. It's a, cause I don't wanna gloat. I don't wanna, I don't wanna be like Barry who's always talking, right? Sorry to all the Barry's out there, just picked a name. It's your responsibility to shine your light as opposed to waiting for someone to discover your light. You shine it. I love that quote by Steve Martin, who says, be so good they can't ignore you. Shine your light so brightly, the world cannot ignore the gifts and talents that you have. Stop waiting for your manager to see it. Show it. Share it. Spread it. And I think that's, that's such an important thing. Frameworks. So, so that instead of winging it, you now have something to fall back on. But you've got someone to get you started.

• 1:32:53Speaker 00

  I'm fine once I know someone, but I hate walking into a party where I don't know anyone. I never know how to join a conversation without feeling awkward. What do I actually do?

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Oh, this is so basic. It's gonna upset so many people. I love being able to do this with a simple, a smile on your face. You step in and you say the very simple words, do you mind if I join the conversation? That's it? I don't overcomplicate this. I don't have some genius way, some genius phrase of stepping into a conversation. No, it's just, hey, do you mind if I join the conversation? But again, I'm not, I'm not, do you mind if I join the conversation? No, no, no. Cause no one wants that person to join the conversation. But it's like, there's a slight hesitance to my voice. It's, hey, do you mind if I join the conversation? And then when you join the conversation, be prepared because they're gonna go, yeah, of course, Vin, come join us. Hey, what are they gonna say first? Tell us a little bit about yourself. Now, if you haven't prepared for that,

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  now you're gonna go, oh, damn, Vin, that was really bad. Prepare.

• 1:33:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Have a one minute thing that you share about yourself, right? And then jump in. So be prepared. Have those things in your pocket. Keep it simple. Don't overcomplicate it. There's no magic thing. And as you do this, you'll find nine times out of 10, people will welcome you with open arms. But beware, 1% of people out there are wankers.

• 1:34:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you will encounter them and they're gonna go, nah, mate, private conversation. Don't let that stop you because nine other groups will say, yeah, come in, come join us. So I think it's a, it's a preparation and just don't let the one wanker stop you from doing it.

• 1:34:24Speaker 00

  I think there's so much to be said for sharing your intention with someone when you're at something like that. Now, even when you walk into a party and you walk up to someone and say, hey, I don't know anyone here.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Yes, be vulnerable.

• 1:34:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and that just automatically connects you and makes you feel safe because chances are that person feels similarly, or knows someone at the event or at the party who will be like, oh, you don't know anyone? Let me introduce you to a few people. You know, it's just, it's rare. And, and don't go up to the person who's ignoring you and not looking at you and not making eye contact. Like, yeah, don't go to the person that.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Write what Jay just said down too. He was like, hey, I don't know anyone here. Do you mind if I join the conversation? Pair them both, combo it. Because with a little vulnerability, oh gosh, you'll find people just take you in.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  They just take you in.

• 1:35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  And then just be prepared to share something about yourself and then join the conversation. Meet them where they are. So take everything you've learned from this episode so far and meet them where they are. If they're a giggly group, be fun, be playful, lean into that.

• 1:35:17Speaker 00

  How do you politely leave a conversation without being rude?

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Based on what they're talking about. So say they're talking about their, their labradoodle and they couldn't stop talking about their labradoodle. And you're like, oh, man, I don't wanna hear anything about this labradoodle that Vin got from, from Texas. That's where I got my dog from. And you just go, I don't wanna hear about this anymore. So what you do is, first thing, reflect back the last thing you said. Oh, you know, that's wild that your labradoodle came from Texas. Hey, I've gotta go, but I wanna ask you one more thing about your labradoodle. Ask one more question about the down dog. Okay, do you have a picture? Can you show me a picture of the dog? But what you've done there now is you reflected back first to let them know, hey, I've been listening. I know they came from Texas. So they go, oh, I feel heard. Second thing is you go, hey, I've gotta go, right? Time constraint, polite, but I, but before I go, I wanna ask you one more thing.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  It has this beauty to it where it's, hey, I've been listening. I wanna continue the conversation in a way, but I also have to go. So to me, it's just such a beautiful and polite way to, to leave with grace, elegance, kindness. You know, even though you don't wanna talk about dogs anymore, it's a beautiful way to be able to signal the gotta go.

• 1:36:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's really good. I really like that.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. As opposed to the classic, gotta go. This has been terribly boring.

• 1:36:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  Right? You know, and, and I, I know people who do that.

• 1:36:27Speaker 00

  Thank you so much. Take care.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Oh, you gotta go, I gotta go to the toilet. And then they see you not go to the toilet. And then you just go straight and you speak to Steve.

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  Like, ah, you bastard, right? So I think that's a really elegant way to do it. And then vacate the room so they can't see you.

• 1:36:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  And then leave.

• 1:36:43Speaker 00

  It's funny how these are such like the simple things.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so simple.

• 1:36:46Speaker 00

  That we all need, not, not the tools. The tools are simple enough to practice, but it's so interesting that we all deal with this on a daily basis, yet we don't know what to do. And we carry so much stress and anxiety about the things that shouldn't matter. Like, these are not the things we should be worrying about. Like, life has, everyone has so many problems and challenges and worries in life. We shouldn't be worrying about how to say, I gotta go because I need to go somewhere and not be rude.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:11Speaker 00

  But these are the things we carry in our minds. Or we shouldn't have to worry in a meeting, like, oh, how do I get my point across when these are things that we should, we can figure out. And that's what this book does. That's what your work does.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  And, and just know that even if you're not a great communicator at the moment, that's not how you have to be for the rest of this journey. You know, these are simple skills. It's why I love, you know, a past part of my life was I was a magician. And in the world of magic, you know, the, the most disappointing thing about magic is when you discover how the trick is done. There's a lesson in that, is that the most complicated things have the simplest solutions. And it's why people say, a magician guards an empty treasure chest, because all you find in there is disappointment. So we guard you from that. Don't look in, otherwise you're gonna be disappointed. Same thing with life. So many of the things we suffer from when it comes to communication, a little volume, a slight pause, reflecting,

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  time constraint, question, leave. Such simple solutions that as you learn them, it will enhance your life dramatically. Whereas sometimes we sit in a state of confusion thinking, oh, I'm broken. There's something wrong with me. No, no, no, nothing wrong with you. You're capable. You just haven't learned how. So go learn how and discover what you're truly capable of in this life. What chapters you have yet to write that are bloody exciting and filled with connection and fulfillment and depth and meaning. It awaits you.

• 1:38:33Speaker 00

  Vin well said. What have I not asked you about this book that you'd love to share? That a story, an experience, an insight, anything that comes to heart or mind?

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  I think a big thing that this book has allowed me to do, Jay, is to share some of the more vulnerable stories that I have in my life. I've always thought of the way I can add my, or share my light with the world is to add a light that spreads joy, you know, lots of love, kindness, compassion and, and playfulness. I'm on the journey of learning how to share stories at times that are. They're just sad sometimes, Jay. Sometimes there's no solution to them. Sometimes there's ones that I'm still working through. And I think this book has strangely enough allowed me to write some stories in it that that still hurt, that I'm not really able to share verbally and out loud yet, but I

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  was able to write them down because I felt safe doing that. It was in me recognizing that, gosh, that's a genre of music that I often don't play. You know, I've, I've overvalued positivity, joy and playfulness, that there's a whole category of music that I've never really played in my life, that I never really played openly. So to me, this was the first step in being able to share some of those harder songs and play some of those harder songs is my first step towards that. And I hope people, as they read that, they'll learn more about my heart. And hopefully it gets them to also go, well, what songs haven't I played? Because for some people, it's the opposite. So for some people, they played those songs that have hurt, but they haven't discovered the songs that bring joy, the songs that bring lightness.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  And my hope is that you get to, you know, in my kid's playroom in my office, I've got this big neon sign that says, taste all the flavors, play all the songs. I hope that for my readers, I hope that for our listeners of this podcast, is that they taste all the flavors, play all the music in you before time runs out. So die with no music left.

• 1:40:31Speaker 00

  Ever on the book, it's called Before We Forget How to Connect by Vin Jang. Go and grab your copy right now. Vin, thank you so much for sharing your insights, your wisdom, your heart.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:42Speaker 00

  And I can't wait for people to dive into these pages and discover not only tools and techniques, but as you said, stories that you haven't yet shared with the world and.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Ah, thank you.

• 1:40:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you so much.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Thank you, and I, I hope they get three.

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  You said one.

• 1:40:56Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  Why say one? Say three.

• 1:40:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, get three. One for you, one for your partner.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  One for someone you meet on the street.

• 1:41:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:04Speaker 00

  I love it. Congrats, Vin.

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  Thanks, Jay.

• 1:41:07Speaker 02

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