NOAH KAHAN: Imposter Syndrome, Anxiety & The Pressure of Success (What He’s Never Shared Before)

Jay sits down with singer-songwriter Noah Kahan to break down the pressure that comes after “making it” - the imposter syndrome, the constant comparison, and the fear of losing it all. Noah shares how music became his escape from anxiety growing up, what it felt like to finally land the record deal he dreamed of, and why success didn’t silence the doubt, it amplified it. Jay and Noah unpack the myth of the “tortured artist,” and the quiet fear that healing might take away what makes you creative. Noah opens up about his recent OCD diagnosis, how he let go of the belief that he had to suffer for his art, and what it took to find his voice again without relying on pain. Noah speaks candidly about his struggles with body dysmorphia and the unexpected therapy of creating his documentary. Together they explore what it means to find balance and to stop performing for the world so you can finally be seen by the people who matter most. In this episode, you'll learn: How to Stop Defining Your Worth by Your Work How to Face Your Unseen Fears Through Therapy How to Stay Present When Life Feels Overwhelming How to Extract Lessons from Painful Feedback How to Handle the Fear of Losing Your Success How to Stay Grounded Between Praise and Criticism How to Prioritize Your Time Over the Endless Grind Whether you are navigating a major life transition or simply trying to find your footing in a loud world, remember that your self-worth is not a mathematical equation based on your latest achievement. No one should have to navigate their mental health journey alone. Join Noah in the mission to prove that the more we share our stories, the more we empower others to do the same. Visit: https://www.busyheadproject.org/ With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:54 Seeing Yourself Through the Eyes of Others 04:39 The Childhood Memory That Defined My Career 05:42 Middle Child Energy and the Need to Be Heard 06:57 Music Was My Only Plan A 08:44 The Disconnect Between Fitting In and Being Genuine 11:09 Expressing Yourself Without Giving Yourself Away 14:05 Songwriting: The Constant Search for a Simpler Life 17:25 Every Creative Process Is Different 18:52 When What You Do Becomes Who You Are 24:07 The Power of Journaling Your Lessons 27:05 Does Healing Kill Creativity? 29:48 My Biggest Regret in Communicating with Family 32:43 The Vulnerability of Filming Your Private Life 36:32 Healing and Finding Peace as a Family 43:51 Has Success Made Mental Health Harder or Better? 46:19 The Honest Truth about Body Dysmorphia 52:09 Living and Dying by Your Own Honesty 57:40 The Difference Between Going to Therapy and Doing Therapy 01:00:24 Do You Secretly Find Comfort in Your Pain? 01:02:01 Re-evaluating What Truly Matters After Success 01:05:59 Finding the Strength to Believe in Yourself 01:11:04 Protecting Your Heart While Taking Criticism 01:14:06 Stability Rooted in Love and Marriage 01:20:48 Would You Rather? 01:22:55 Gut Reaction 01:25:46 Noah on Final Five Episode Resources: Website | https://noahkahan.com/ YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/c/NoahKahan Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/noahkahanmusic Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/noahkahanmusic/ TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@noahkahanmusic X | https://x.com/NoahKahan See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:45Jay Shetty?

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• 1:24Jay Shetty?

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• 2:07Jay Shetty?

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• 2:21Speaker 01

  It's easy to look at somebody and be like, "Your life must be so sick."

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Man, you have no clue. Talking about the mental illness stuff, it used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music. If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone says that I suck, I'm like, I suck.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Getting to talk about this is not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever.

• 2:55Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today on On Purpose, I'm joined by singer songwriter Noah Khan. Noah's highly anticipated new album, The Great Divide, is out April 24th, alongside his brand new Netflix documentary, Noah Khan: Out of Body, out April 13th. Please welcome to On Purpose, Noah Khan. Noah, it's great to finally meet you.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan and this is awesome, so thank you.

• 3:23Jay Shetty?

  I have to say, I'm a huge fan. Thank you for sending your documentary in advance. I was, I'm actually really looking forward to people seeing it because it was so raw. It was so vulnerable, super real. I felt like I got to know you before I got to know you today. And then when we're sitting down before the interview today, I'm like, oh, wait, this is, I feel like I've already got very familiar with you.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  It's so weird like to know it's going to be out in the world. Like, it was almost like I was able to compartmentalize the process of making it with like not thinking about anyone seeing it so that I was able to kind of be more myself.

• 3:54Jay Shetty?

  Interesting.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  And then a lot of ways, it was like really therapeutic to film and to watch back. It's like a very heavy experience, like watching yourself and getting to see your family. But like my family and I were talking, we're like, we're actually so lucky that we got to be a part of this because how rare is it to get to see how you all interact with each other in a natural way? And like how you can kind of take into perspective, like what it would look like from an outside angle? And like watching it back, I think my whole family was like, we are really good to each other. And like, we all are funny and love each other. And so it was a really amazing like ability, like a chance to see who we are and through the eyes of someone else and through the artistic lens of like a director and, um, and hopefully soon the audience. Which is, it's just a special thing. So I appreciate you watching it.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  It's like my first time talking about it right now. So I'm still like learning how to talk about it and learning how to like express my feelings on it. Cause I'm still kind of finding out what they are. But ultimately, like, I just hope that people that watch it feel connected to their families, to their lives, to their own insecurities through, you know, me talking about mine. And it was hard and was scary, but I think ultimately like those are the things that move people and and can make people take stock of who they are. So making it, there was moments where I was like, should I talk about this? Should I say this? Like, should I really say what I'm feeling? So I have this like hyperactive ability to like know how it's going to be perceived and just trying to put away like

• 5:21Speaker 01

  my concerns about how people would perceive me and just try to be myself was like a fun challenge. And I think helped me in like my own life now.

• 5:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, well, I really hope this conversation is as much a discovery and exploration for you as it is for us. And yeah, so that I hope that I hope that it helps you in the journey of what you're trying to do and the mission and the purpose that's behind it. We see so much of your childhood in it. You talk about it like, what's a childhood memory that stands out to you that still defines who you are today?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  My dad and I, the documentary play Father and Son at the end, which is like the first song I learned to sing and one of the first songs I learned to play guitar on with my dad. And so I think playing that song at this senior citizens home in Hanover was like really defining. So it was like my first time performing and it was my first time realizing that like I wasn't as good as I thought I was. Like, I think I thought it was really good. And then I went and did that performance. I'm like, oh, like this is really hard. And also like the song itself is about like, a lot of it's about like aging and kind of like the discrepancy between youth and and people that are getting older and like the youth feeling like old people don't understand. And we're literally doing it in an old folks. These people are probably like, yeah, this dad character is way more correct than the son character.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  But that was like a defining moment for me. And also the only time my dad and I have ever performed like for anyone besides our family. Until we did the documentary. So I always remember that, like a really special moment in my childhood.

• 6:39Jay Shetty?

  That is special. That's super special. What were you like as a kid? Like, how would you describe yourself growing up?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  I was, I'm one of four, like, kind of like middle child, like, it's my older brother, my older sister than me than my younger brother. So I was kind of like in my own world a little bit, I think. Very creative, very like aspirational to do something creative with my life even from a very young age. But also like very distracted, distracting, just kind of trying to be heard, even just around the dinner table or in school. Just like trying to make my voice the loudest one to get like a chance to say what I had to say and.

• 7:11Jay Shetty?

  What was your method, just raising your voice?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Just yelling and like, yeah, just being like an asshole, basically, I think. But just trying to be heard and trying to like get the attention that I wanted, just kind of being in the middle. And trying to just have my voice be one that people can hear. I was not a great student. I love, I think I was pretty smart, but didn't really care much for school. Cause I always, always, always wanted to be musician and truly like every year of school for me felt like just one more year of me not getting to go be a singer. So I was just looking forward to being done with school and going to write songs and going to play music. And going to do open mics. So very like, I don't know, kind of just like itching and a little anxious to get out. As a kid, from whatever situation wasn't like gonna achieve my dreams.

• 7:54Jay Shetty?

  What do you think your vision was for life if, if this hadn't happened, like this incredible success and journey that you're on right now? Like what, what did you envision?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  I literally never, ever thought about it. Like I've never thought about anything else besides being a musician. In sixth grade, you wrote a letter to yourself that you would open when you graduate high school and like my letter was just.

• 8:12Jay Shetty?

  That's such a great exercise.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's actually really cool and like kind of sets you up for like sadness in a lot of ways. It's like, oh man, I haven't done any of that shit. But for me, it was like, I want to have a record deal by the time I graduate high school. And I want to make, it was basically like, you better still be making music. You better still be like writing and like thinking about music. And when I graduated high school, I had a record deal and I opened up the letter. I'm like, this is cool. I think I made my like childhood self pretty proud there. And so I remember writing that and actually like throughout high school, I was like thinking about like, man, I gotta get that record deal or sixth grade and no one's gonna beat me up. But yeah, that was always my life plan. I think if I, people do ask me all the time about what I would do if I wasn't.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And music, but it's always with the context of already being in music. I think music is so, or my job feels so me focused all the time and like so centered on who I am and marketing me and marketing my vulnerability and whatever. And so I think just something that would be focused on other people and focused on like helping other people and extending myself to help others spotlight themselves. Just something that wasn't so Noah all the time.

• 9:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you've talked about how like writing as a teenager was an outlet for feeling different. And your anxiety, like what, what was that feeling different than that music was an outlet for? And what was the anxiety back then?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was interesting. So I, I was always trying to fit in and always and like had lots of friends and but I always kind of felt like I was hiding this part of myself that was like really vulnerable and sad and going through a lot of like mental health stuff, even at a really early age. And I think that created this like disconnect in my life where like I was going to school or hanging out with my friends and like really putting on to be who I thought would be like accepted and then going home and feeling like really just disconnected from like this presentation of myself all the time. And so writing music was like my own special little thing. And for a long time, I really miss that too. Like when it was just my special, my special little buddy, you know, just going home and writing a song and

• 10:12Speaker 01

  and like having this other like Hannah Montana thing that I did where like I would go home and like write music and then go to school and just be like, you know, a class clown and be annoying at school and then go home and like just kind of access this other, other side of myself. So writing music was always a way for me to to kind of have something that made me feel like I belonged in whoever, like in who I really was.

• 10:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. You missed that because you don't feel you get to do that anymore in a certain way like.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  I just feel like everything I do, even like internally on my own, like I just always am thinking about it from like a how is this going to move my career forward? How do we market this? Like, I don't know. When you like start to be sentient to like who you are and what your music can represent to people, it can affect like the intention. And so sometimes I worry that I'm not being, I'm not saying. Saying things that I feel, I'm just saying things that sound like deep or sad or whatever. And I like to think that the music that I put out is all stuff that I connect to. But it's just in the writing process and like thinking about like, how do we market your vulnerability in the next album? How do we like show people this other sad thing? And, and when it's like, I feel like there's all this shit that's up for grabs and up for like,

• 11:17Speaker 01

  everything that I have is going out and being taken in and being absorbed or being sold. And I miss when it was just me and the guitar and like, the only person in the world that was gonna hear that song was maybe my mom. And then I my, my notebook or whatever.

• 11:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So yeah, I missed that and I miss having music be just this special thing. That wasn't like adulterated by the other side of music, which is not as much fun for me.

• 11:42Jay Shetty?

  But what I'm hearing from you is that in your writing process, you're almost using that awareness that you have to go, oh no, I wanna write with intention and I wanna write with my real feeling. And it almost feels like you're using it as a filter, which I guess you're saying in the past that filter didn't exist. You didn't need to. Now you almost have to filter it through that.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And in a lot of ways, it's nice because seeing people respond. And I'm not even talking about like marketing or charts or whatever, like selling shows. It's just watching people like in the crowd, hearing the music and like watching a girl and her dad or frat guys or grown men like out there like feeling the music.

• 12:18Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  That helps me like, it inspires me to be vulnerable. It's just a matter of like toeing the line between being vulnerable and trying to achieve what people think vulnerability looks like.

• 12:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  And sometimes realizing that sometimes some things don't fit into a box. They don't fit into a three and a half minute song. Sometimes the conversation is much larger and being okay with not being able to say everything you want all the time. And just, yeah, even like as I talk about the documentary, just like, I'm still figuring out how to talk about these feelings that I express. Like I don't have a. Thousand foot view of like what I went through and so learning how to like express myself without feeling like I'm giving myself away. Um, is a, is something that I've been grappling with a lot.

• 12:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's this, I mean, just for whatever it's worth, when I was watching the documentary, my wife randomly was walking through the room and she stopped. She didn't even know what I was watching. Like she just saw I was on my laptop and I'm watching it and she walked in on the moment where you're singing for the little wonderful girl who has cancer.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:15Jay Shetty?

  And my wife just stopped and was like, she heard it and she was so mesmerized. She came over and she just saw the little girl and she was just crying. And it's like, that was just your music and that moment and she had no clue what I was.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  What was going on?

• 13:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, she didn't know and, and it had an impact in like this very passive way of even experiencing it. And I think that says a lot about what you're channeling and putting through.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  That's the most wonderful compliment that somebody that I'm sure your wife is a very different background than I do. Like, or maybe she was from my hometown. I don't know.

• 13:43Jay Shetty?

  No, no, no.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  But, uh, just like somebody that's not in the, in my world or in my body or in my experience, like finding a connection within themselves or like an interest in something. I think that's like what mental health, the conversation about mental health for me has been so cool is like understanding that where I came from, um, is my own and I grew up with privilege and with, uh, access and like that people that didn't have that are still connecting to the feelings there. And it brings us together and it kind of helps equalize, um, our differences into this like larger similarity of just going through something mentally.

• 14:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I listened to you and I'm like, wait, was I from Vermont? Like, why does this still my soul? Like, you know, and I'm not, I'm not just saying that to flatter you. I'm like, as if, I'm like, wait a minute, why does this like, why does this hit so deep? You know? It's, and it's such a beautiful thing of like connecting to strangers or people from different walks of life and different backgrounds. But I find it fascinating that you talk about, you know, almost missing this old experience, but then in the documentary, you kind of start it with like this line of, I'm so afraid of losing this special thing and it might go away. And, and so it's almost like there's, there's something beautiful about what's happening now too.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's, I think I'm just constantly in like a grass. Greener mindset and constantly trying to go backwards. I worked with this songwriter in Nashville and he's this older guy. I started when he was in his 40s. His name's Tom Douglas, a great writer. He said songwriting is all about trying to go back and and to somewhere simpler and somewhere easier. And I think that's how I live a lot of my life and I'm very actively like hyper actively aware of moments as they're there. And I'm not able to be inside of the moment because I'm so worried about when it's gone and I know I'll never be able to go back to it. And so in the documentary, you see a lot of me being like this imposter syndrome of like, I might not get this ever again. This might all go away.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  And for having worked for so long, for like nine, eight or nine years before I had that kind of moment that allowed me into those big venues and that like more kind of like global success, I guess. I'm so aware of how fleeting and how hard it can be to refine it. And so I think I spent so much time worrying about not being able to get it again. That a lot of those moments I wasn't able to fully live in. So when there were moments like Fenway Park in the documentary, as you see in the movie, like that I'm able to fully be in. Those are so special to me.

• 16:03Jay Shetty?

  And you you felt you were like.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  That was one of the one of the few times that I felt like I was just there and like looking out and I just felt like so with everybody else in that moment and not thinking about before or after. And you know, that's why that show was so special to me, like the fans all being there, the venue amazing, but like for me selfishly, it was just like, oh, I'm here. This is awesome. I am right where you guys are right now. And I felt like the same for a little while.

• 16:26Jay Shetty?

  I mean, I I feel like I love watching that genuine kind of present yet anxious feeling we all experience. Like that shot of you lying on the lawn at Fenway, like lying on the ground and texting right at the beginning.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:39Jay Shetty?

  And and it's like, you're like, I can't believe I'm here. It's surreal.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:42Jay Shetty?

  But then you're like, but I'm anxious. And when I watch that, I'm like, but that's so real. Like that is the most present way in one sense to experience anything. It's like, that's the human experience, right?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  It's like, I always am so jealous of, and maybe there's no one exists that can do this, but someone that's just like fully living in the moment, like fully like just accepting things as they come, being right there. Experiencing everything and not thinking about the context or the future.

• 17:06Jay Shetty?

  It's possible. Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, that'd be so sick, dude. Guy in LA that you could hook me up with like just implant something in my brain.

• 17:12Jay Shetty?

  I don't know if it's tech, I, I only know the meditative way to that. I don't know the technological way to that.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Even meditation, bro. I'll be meditating and I'll be like, man, I don't think I'm meditating good enough, dude. I meditated so much better when I was young, dude. It's hard. Meditation, like, it's so, um,

• 17:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Powerful, but it's so difficult to like.

• 17:29Jay Shetty?

  It's like golf. It's hard.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  It is. And you have, it takes a while. Like, it's, the consistency is, is key for meditation, I think.

• 17:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  I'd like to learn more about that from you someday.

• 17:37Jay Shetty?

  Of course, man, of course. You, I love how you talk about though this. I, I think what I, what I'm getting at is there's, I just feel like you're really honest about how we all feel. I think it's very easy to, artists to be like, all right, I had this success, you know, six season was insane, like the next thing's gonna be as big or bigger. And the reality is, I think anyone who's had any success, you're always scared of your next thing.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:56Jay Shetty?

  Like, that's just such a normal human emotion. And so you talk about this idea of being scared and sad for the next album. How does that bleed into your creativity and how do you use it rather than be controlled by it?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I'm still learning. Um, I mean, when I was 16 years old, no record deal, nobody knew I was like making music or anything. Uh, I remember still feeling that way. Like, I wrote a song called Sink when I was a kid and I like loved this song. And then the next day I was crying. So I'm like, I'll never make anything as good as that again. So there is no stakes at all for me at that point in my life. Uh, but that feeling has chased me around throughout my entire career and was incredibly difficult, um, coming off of, of six season just because I kept on raising like the stakes emotionally for myself to, to have to follow it up. Uh, and for the first like year after being on tour for three years of six season, I was just kind of lost in how to fight that feeling.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  I had a conversation with a few different artists. I don't necessarily want to name them just because I don't want to put them on the spot, but they had gone through this themselves, like burnout and, um, major success and needing to follow things up. And the advice was just like, the best advice I got was like, it's just not going to be the same process and you can't control, you can't control it. You can't like try to make it perfect and it's just gonna be what it is. So I had to just kind of let go of, um, this idea of like the follow-up and just make music for that same, you know, eight-year-old that picked up a guitar the first time and just make music because it's what I'm supposed to do.

• 19:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I, I, it's beautiful to hear that you actually reached out to other artists who've gone through similar things and have you, have you felt that support in that community? Because I think there aren't so many more artists now who are talking about their mental health and are talking about the creative process and everything else.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 19:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, I feel like people really wanna talk about themselves, I think. And sometimes it's just getting that conversation started. It's funny, cause like creativity and its intersection with self-worth is so difficult for people to navigate.

• 19:51Jay Shetty?

  That's so well said. Explain that for me?

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, I think a lot of times as creative people, as writers, actors, whatever, podcasts, you feel like what you do is who you are. And when you're talking about what your job is, is expressing yourself. You feel like when you can't express yourself, you're not good at your job and you're not good at satisfying this need to let yourself out. And so it becomes very lonely because you feel like admitting that to somebody is not just admitting that you're struggling in your job, means you're struggling with yourself. And that can be really, really difficult to say to somebody, especially somebody that you look up to, that you think has it all together. So like talking to these people was really hard, like my voice shakes in the phone, being like, I just don't think I can write songs anymore. And I don't think I can do this.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  And like having to open yourself up to somebody like that and be like, and be afraid that they're gonna say, well, that sucks, you know? And, and to hear someone say, I get it and I went through that too, or I have my own version of that in my life. It just makes the world feel brighter. It makes like the clouds over your head just for a second go away. And you're like, at least, even if it's not fixed yet, at least you've been here before and there's a path out. So I'd like unbelievably grateful to those artists, to my family, to my wife, to the people that like, sat with me in those feelings and like observed how I was handling it and recognized that I needed some help. So I'm really grateful to the people that helped me. And if you're listening to the podcast, like, thank you so much.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  And I, this album would not have happened without, without them, so.

• 21:22Jay Shetty?

  Everything you just said was so well articulated. I hope you listen back to it because it was just, everything you just said about creativity and self-worth just resonated so strongly.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's hard to describe and it's hard.

• 21:34Jay Shetty?

  You just described it really well.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. It's all right.

• 21:36Jay Shetty?

  I was like, you literally just summed up the essence of.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Dude, when I was a kid, I was like, even because even when I was going through this stuff as a kid, like writer's block and stuff like that, I would just look up artists with writer's block and hope that I could see a quote from somebody that would just like unlock everything. And I found a few, but like I tried to make a vow to myself to like, talk about creative struggle, uh, because it's really isolating and really lonely and it just feels like you get stripped of who you are and it's, um, it just feels like you're drowning. So, uh, I always want to try my best to, uh, share what I've gone through, um, just so people can, can maybe hear it and it'll be understood for a sec.

• 22:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, not, not to compare, but to reflect my own experience. I spent the last, from when I started the process, I spent the last 12 months trying to figure out just what the topic of my next book was going to be about. And it was the most excruciating 12 months of my life because I, I wrote, I've written two books. This was my third book that I'm writing and I wrote chapters, threw them away. I wrote chapters that I thought were quite good and then I read them back and they weren't. And I was overthinking, ruminating and everything else. And then 12 months later, I was like, I'm going to write a book about overthinking.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:42Jay Shetty?

  Cause that's what I've just done for 12 months.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Totally. That's your experience.

• 22:45Jay Shetty?

  That's what my actual experience, rather than, you know, writing from a place of knowing, I'm going to write, write from a place of what I'm struggling with and, and it just.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  That reaches people.

• 22:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, but it took me a year to like, even come to that conclusion where.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  And did you feel like when you kind of made that choice internally, like, did it feel easier and did it feel like the words flowed and like?

• 23:05Jay Shetty?

  So much more.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:06Jay Shetty?

  But it was because before I was trying to technically figure out like.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:10Jay Shetty?

  I had this really good book. It did really well. And what was good about it? Like, how would I repeat that? And what would, what would that chapter structure look like if it matches that structure? And people said they loved that chapter from that book. So let me, and, and it's like this mathematical process, which is not how I wrote that first book.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  No, it's never.

• 23:25Jay Shetty?

  Or second. Yeah. And so then I'm like, wait, why am I trying to be a mathematician?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  You can only go through what you're going through. Like you can't.

• 23:31Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  You can't like change the feelings you have, even if they're feelings that you don't think are going to be marketable or as successful, like. And then you kind of realize like that's actually more compelling than listening to you pretend to be going through something and pretend to have a perspective on something like people relate to that. That's awesome, dude. I'm pumped that you went through that, too.

• 23:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, no, no.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Well, not pumped that you went through it, but I'm pumped that you got through it and that we're able to talk about it with like the perspective.

• 23:56Jay Shetty?

  No, I'm pumped. Now I'm pumped. I went through it, too, because for that year, you just feel like you're pulling your hair out going, what are we doing here?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  I wonder if the next time that you and I have to do something new, like I always wonder, are we going to be able to like, is this going to help us the next time? I'm always like, am I just going to be back to zero? Do we just forget? Do we just get amnesia and like start again? Or like, I hope that this experience for me and that experience for you like lets you have a little bit of like confidence for the next time.

• 24:21Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yes.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  That's like what I'm trying to like, I'm trying to tell myself, like, I just went through this hard thing creatively. And I'm gonna have to be more creative in my life. Like, let's hope that these lessons actually help me instead of like just forgetting about them and getting lost in the sauce.

• 24:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I feel like writing down these lessons protects them for me personally. Like, I'm like, I need to journal about it. I need to write about it. I need to cement what you just said. Like this idea, this moment where we're having this interaction and be like, no, I said to me, I hope you don't forget these things.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  I do the same thing. I write whenever I like, I used to write a good song or a song that I thought was good. And then I would put in my notes app, like everything I did to get that good song. And it's funny because when I'm going through something hard, I'll look back that I'm like, okay, I'm trying and it's not working. So yeah, it's complicated. Creativity is so annoying because it like, it makes you start from scratch every time. And it makes you, it forces you to like, use that muscle memory. And it's, you know, it's just a fucking mind.

• 25:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  I mean, sorry to swear, but it's just a mind. It's a mind, man.

• 25:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I remember like, but Ruben was here, like, maybe two years ago now. And then you get Rick who's sitting there just going like, yeah, don't make anything for anyone. Like, just make it for yourself. And I'm like, yeah, like, I wish, but it's hard. It's like, you know.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  And everyone's journey is so different and like, everyone's like creative process is so different that it could be so hard to like, find the bridge between two people. It's difficult. I mean, again, like, I'm jealous of people that just like. Can write every day and love what they're making and like not have to worry about how it's being perceived or I feel like writer's block, it's so closely tied to like anxiety and like the self fulfilling prophecy that you have. Like if you worry about something so much, it's going to happen and then you worry about worrying and then you're worrying about worrying and then it's like, it's here, you know, like there you did it, dude. You're like, congrats. Like, I hope that I learned in the, in the process before I get to that place, like to recognize what is happening internally and like question it instead of just letting it flow and going to this shitty spot.

• 26:21Jay Shetty?

  It's almost like we trust every thought.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 26:24Jay Shetty?

  And that's such an interesting idea. It's like if you trusted everything you've read on social media and believed it to be true without checking it, but we do that in our mind all day.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 26:31Jay Shetty?

  And any thought doesn't get any evidence checked. There's no proof needed. There's no, there's no rebuttal.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  It's like a weird arrogance that everything you think has to be correct.

• 26:40Jay Shetty?

  And then you're anxious about that. Like it's like this.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  You get lost.

• 26:43Jay Shetty?

  Arrogance maybe is the way to think about it.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Oh my God. I know. It's a little bit of like this ego thing where it's like, oh, I've been, especially because we all are really doing this in one way or another from since we were children, I think, like expressing ourselves creatively. So it's tied up in your inner self and this like, you don't want to betray this like process that you've cultivated, but like, I never questioned that maybe that process actually wasn't very healthy and there's a real way that I can make good music without having to suffer all the time for it. And we look at people like Van Gogh and, and these famous artists that like battered themselves to create and we think that's has to be how it is. Um, and I've subscribed to that theory for a long time. And I'm just now like trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically, um, or in pain in some emotional way in my

• 27:28Speaker 01

  life to create good music. Like there has to be a way to access it without living it all the time.

• 27:40Jay Shetty?

  The call you almost didn't make. Let me ask you something honestly. Have you ever almost made a phone call and then decided not to? Maybe you picked up your phone and thought about calling someone. It might've been someone you had not spoken to in a long time. It might've been someone you wanted to thank, or maybe it was someone you needed to apologize to, but then you hesitated.

• 28:00Jay Shetty?

  You might have told yourself that it was not the right time. You might have thought they were probably busy. Or maybe you convinced yourself that sending a quick text would be easier. So you put down the phone. Most of us do this more often than we realise. We underestimate the power of a simple phone call. But when you really think about it, some of the most memorable moments in our lives begin with someone deciding to reach out. They begin with someone deciding that the conversation was worth having. For more than one hundred and fifty years, phone calls have helped people bridge distance and stay connected with the people who matter most in their lives. However, the real magic of a phone call has never been the technology itself. The real magic lies in the intention behind it.

• 28:42Jay Shetty?

  A call is a moment when someone chooses to say, in the simplest way possible, "You matter enough for me to call." Think about the last time someone called you unexpectedly just to check in. It probably meant more than you expected. Hearing someone's voice reminds us that we're not just another notification or message. We're a person someone cares about. So today, I want to challenge you to do something simple. Think about the call you almost made recently. Instead of waiting for the perfect moment, create the moment. Call the person, say the thing you've been meaning to say. Because sometimes, the call you almost didn't make becomes the moment someone remembers forever. This moment was sponsored by AT&T. Connecting changes everything.

• 29:25Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with wifi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favourite podcast. Choose a cellar or North East Regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip.

• 29:56Jay Shetty?

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• 30:39Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs helps find quality candidates when you need them most. You can reach who you need based on whatever criteria you're looking for, like skills, certifications, or location. In fact, people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast.

• 31:24Jay Shetty?

  Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 31:40Jay Shetty?

  Did you believe that if you heal too much, it would reduce your creativity?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 31:45Jay Shetty?

  You used to believe that, yeah?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  I used to believe that, for sure. Like, I was like, I mean, it came into the conversation when I started taking medication for my anxiety when I was in high school, had OCD diagnosis more recently, like... These problems were really hard for me and were disrupting my ability to wake up in the morning and to just be a human being, but I was holding off on getting the help that I really needed for a long time because I was so afraid of it doling my creativity. And then I would look at my creativity and be like, well, this is not pretty, very good either. Like, I'm not making anything good right now. I can barely put my pen to the paper. I can barely even process a single thought. And I was like, I don't want to get help because I'm worried that I'll be happy and I won't care about making something and I won't feel pain and it won't be painful enough for my audience and it won't be, uh,

• 32:28Speaker 01

  scare, I go, the feelings won't be real enough for my audience. Um, and it just took like, kind of just saying, well, I don't want to live like this anymore. And if it means that I write a happy song, then like, I need to get up in the morning. And, and I found that I was still sad in a way that felt more manageable and, and I still had feelings and deep thoughts about things, but I wasn't getting sidebarred by rabbit holes of obsession and rabbit holes of anxiety anymore. Um, and it really was a turning point for me making this record was just like, taking the, the step off of the, the cliff, so to speak, into the unknown and not, again, it's a control thing. Like I can't control this and it sucked, but when I let go is when I like, found it again.

• 33:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  I remember I was in Joshua Tree and I like, I've never been to Joshua Tree. I'm not even like particularly a huge like desert guy. It kind of scares me, but I was like, I'm struggling a lot in my life. I need to go to Joshua Tree and like, find myself and make music. And I had just gotten diagnosed with OCD. It's something I had suspected for a long time. And there's so many varying kind of branches of this problem. And so I never really knew where I fit into the conversation. So I didn't want to like, get the diagnosis and be like, I have OCD now. I was kind of scared, but I just gotten diagnosed with OCD and I was in Joshua Tree and I was feeling so miserable in this beautiful Airbnb. Like I'm in the desert. I'm like, this isn't making me feel connected. Oh shit. And I was like so lost in that. And so, uh, being somewhere beautiful and realizing that the

• 33:51Speaker 01

  problem was like beyond where I was or where I put myself or how nice the studio or the collaborators were, like realizing that I just wasn't going to be able to do it on my own was like, that Joshua Tree trip was like horrible, but also incredibly enlightening. Cause I was like, all right, that was my last try. And just like hoping life fixes this for me.

• 34:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I, I imagine it's also, one of the things you address in the documentary is that it's challenging because you don't want to like, air your family's dirty laundry. Like, you know, it's like this, a lot of what you write about is your family and is your upbringing and. Talk to me about how hard it is when it's like what you're writing from is your family and you love, obviously, it's obvious in your doc that you will love each other and you have a supportive relationship. But at the same time, it's hard to do that.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  It's complicated, man. I think actually like one of my biggest regrets is not knowing how to communicate, how I was feeling and choosing to do it through the songs that were then marketed to millions of people and heard by millions of people without having that conversation first of saying, "Hey, Mom and Dad, like this is what I'm feeling about, you know, your guys' divorce or, or whatever's going on in our lives. Uh, my dad's, you know, brain injury and these things that like, I never really knew how to talk to them about. I'm much better at saying it in songs. It's, I don't want to say cowardly, but it's just, I'm afraid of that conflict sometimes. And so I'm like, I go back to this like, okay, well, I'm gonna write it down like angsty teen, like I'm gonna go like, write it down. But like, when you're writing things down in a journal versus when you're sending them to

• 35:17Speaker 01

  uh, every streaming platform and every marketing thing in the world, the effect that I feel like it could have on people is that they feel blindsided. Um, and my mom has always told me like, she was happy that I was getting those feelings out. She's been so supportive of my dad as well. But I still felt like this regret of being like, I wish I had talked to you guys about this first because it would have been so much healthier. It would have been more fair to you. It would have been probably more helpful for me. And it's, it's hard to like, like you said, air the dirty laundry uh, in a way that's fair to everybody. And I don't think I did that on my last album. So I'd been really trying to be intentional about making sure I communicate what I'm saying and why I'm saying it to my parents, my family in this next album. Uh, making sure they have a fair shake to say, "Hey, maybe we, that makes me feel uncomfortable. Like, please don't do that."

• 36:02Speaker 01

  And the documentary is like another huge extension of that, like allowing these people into my home, into my parents' homes, into their marriage, into my dad's injury, into my issues with my body and, and things that will, you know, will be seen in the documentary. It's been really important to like be communicative with each other about what people are comfortable with, why we're doing it, why it's important to have hard moments in there and how it can be helpful for people. Uh, like I had a conversation with my sister and I'm like always checking in to make sure they're okay with this and like, it's been. Big anxiety thing for me of like, I'm so worried that you guys feel like I'm using you or like trying to exploit our pain or our experiences for my own gain.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  My sister said it best. She's just like, is it painful to see dad from an outside angle like this? Yes, but like, she's like, I really think someone who's going through this in their own way with their parents or their friend or family or partner is going to be helped by it. And so there's like a greater good to those like just uncomfortable, vulnerable feelings. And that made me feel better, like hearing them be supportive of it and not be like mad at me or scared or. It's helped me kind of grapple with my own anxiety about about all of it and about showing the world my family and my life.

• 37:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Thanks for sharing that conversation with your sister. I didn't know that. When was the first time you kind of talked to your parents about this? And what was that interaction like?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  It was hard because like when we started the documentary, I don't think I was fully aware of like where it was going to go. And I think obviously that's kind of how all good documentaries are like it starts out with something that feels small or controlled. Then it becomes something, I don't know, more universal and deeper. And so, you know, I'm just like, yeah, they're coming to film some stuff. And then suddenly, you know, my dad and I are like having this really intimate moment on the porch or a conversation in the yard. And I think the best way that I've always done, been able to be vulnerable is like conversations like this where you're not like, here are the things that you have to say. Like it just kind of happens naturally, but I think we were kind of just like, yeah, they're just going to come film some stuff and I'll probably play the acoustic guitar and we'll leave. And then it kind of like developed into this more intimate, like vulnerable piece.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  So I think they learned with me as things were happening, what it was going to be like. And man, like the first time watching the documentary, because you see it all get made around, you're kind of able to like pretend it's not happening. And I think we all were kind of like, oh, let's think about that later. But like, when it finally was time to watch it was like one of the most stressful days of my entire life, man. Yeah.

• 38:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, kind of. Have you watched it with the whole family yet?

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was, uh, it was, I got it first and I, one of the most poorly timed edibles of my entire life. I was literally, I was like coming up on this like weed edible and the documentary got sent to my inbox and like they're gonna, I'm gonna send it to my family, but I really want to watch this first.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  And so watching this, this two hour long, hour and a half long movie about myself was like, oh my god. Yeah. And I'd never seen all the pieces together and how like emotional it was. And my family and I talked to each other like honestly and emotionally all the time, but like, we kind of are like, all right, let's have a drink and I'll see you tomorrow. Like you don't have to think about it again. So like, knowing that this was just like there for everyone to watch and that I was gonna have to send it to my mom and brother and sister who were really right down the road, was really scary. And so I sent it to them and like, I think that their response, like, I guess I was hoping that they'd be like, this is amazing. Great. Send it off to Hollywood.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  I think for them, it was an emotional experience as well. And it was like challenging in a lot of ways to watch. I think beautiful at the same time, but challenging for them to see, not just like seeing yourself on camera, which is weird. And like not human, but just seeing how the themes came together and like kind of reminded us of this painful thing that we've had to go through as a family. And so it was like a lot of conversations at first about how we felt about it, if we wanted to do it or not. I was ready and willing to be like this. Let's not do it then. If you guys are feeling any type of way about it, let's not do it. It's fine. You know? When we all watched it together as a family, we found ourselves laughing, crying, hugging and like being so excited.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Because it brought us all a lot closer and it helped us kind of like actually visualize what it's like for my dad, what it's like for my mom, what it's like for all of us in our own way. And like, I remember this feeling of just like this golden week afterwards where like, we all just felt super connected to each other and we felt this gratitude and it really has brought my dad and I a lot closer. In a lot of ways, there are things that I said in that documentary that I knew someday he was gonna hear, but I don't think I ever could have said myself because I wasn't brave enough or something. I was too scared. And so like having this vehicle to like tell my dad. What I was feeling and tell him how sorry I was for like my impatience with him and how sad I felt about what he had gone through. And it created this like connection that I think we never really got to have.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  And it was really, really special and powerful. And like I said at the beginning, like I wish every single family could have a chance to watch the way they interact with each other. And to have to get to see what it looks like to love each other and to be a son, a daughter, a father, a mother on screen, because it really helped us.

• 41:08Jay Shetty?

  It's fascinating when that process becomes therapy and healing almost. Did it make your parents readdress any of the things you brought up? Like, did it start new conversations that hadn't happened before where they said, oh, when you said this, or when you felt this, like this is what was going through our life?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did. It did. And, you know, I'm like I said, I'm still learning how to talk about it. But I, I do feel like it helped us address why our reservations were there. And a lot of times reservations are, are like fears. We're not even about like what's actually being shown. It's about us grappling with it being out.

• 41:41Jay Shetty?

  For sure.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  You know, like I remember thinking about the sting of my dad or I'm like, oh, I don't want anybody to like see my dad as vulnerable or like going through this hard thing. And I think the truth was that I was grappling with my own like shame or whatever about it and my own like embarrassment for having my own vulnerabilities or. And so it wasn't even about like what's on screen. It was about my own internal dialogue about it. And so I think that was really important. And it opened up a lot of conversations about like, my dad loves this movie. He's seen it. This isn't about him even in this moment. This is about my own shit. And so I need to work through this and stop being like projecting my own fears onto my, onto these other people in my life.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Which was really important and a hard thing to accept, but I think a lot of us had that realization and that was really healthy, I think, to kind of express that to each other. And, you know, painful things like we don't always want to talk about them all the time. And with people living all over the country and people being in different walks of life and my family and my life, like it was nice to have to kind of force ourselves to confront some of these feelings. And it was really healthy.

• 42:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's a, I'm only sharing this because it's reminiscent of a conversation I had a couple of months ago with Chris Hemsworth, who made a documentary about his father's Alzheimer's.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 42:59Jay Shetty?

  And so it's about his dad's journey and he's forgetting details and, and, and he felt the same way as you did where it was like. Am I like putting my dad's story out there like this like?

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:10Jay Shetty?

  And then what he said was when he watched it, it was really emotional for him and his dad to watch it. But it was actually most amazing to watch his sons watch it.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 43:18Jay Shetty?

  Cause they watched and they were like, we want to spend more time with grandpa.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 43:22Jay Shetty?

  Like, like, and he was like, that was, you know, and it's, it's that kind of thing where I'm listening to you going like, this is something that your family has come closer together over it.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:31Jay Shetty?

  Which is why you're saying like, you wish every person could almost make a mini doc about their life. And, and not even share it publicly. Like, it sounds like a healing experience.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Honestly, it'd be a cool, like, therapy thing to do. It's not, it'd be very expensive. But no, totally. And like, so much of what we feel other people are going through is really just a projection of how we are experiencing our own pain. I think like, my dad is the fucking man. Uh, he is happy doing his thing. He loves his life. Um, there are struggles like in any person's life and he has, um, you know, he has had to struggle through this injury, but a lot of it was just me worrying about him and like making it seem like it was his, for some reason, his responsibility to feel that same worry that I had. And it's not. People experience their pain differently. And I learned a really good lesson through making this documentary that like,

• 44:22Speaker 01

  my fucking view of the world and view of people's trauma isn't always accurate. And it's not fair to like, suggest that they're going through what I think they're going through all the time.

• 44:31Jay Shetty?

  I mean, that's huge. If, if there was any lesson we could all learn.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 44:35Jay Shetty?

  That's, that's huge. Like to be able to actually go, oh, wait, the way I process stuff isn't the way people process stuff. And just because I'm judging this thing doesn't, I mean, that's, that's huge.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Totally, man.

• 44:44Jay Shetty?

  What a great lesson to gain from.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  It's helped me like, uh, the using the word selfish. My therapist is like, you say self-focused, you know, but like, a lot of times we think we're helping people or we think we're speaking some truth into the air. And it's like, that's not at all what's going on with this person. Um, and so getting to see that up close and getting to, you know, my favorite thing is I, where my family and I were like, oh my God, we have to send this to dad. Like, he has to watch this. Like, we're all so nervous that I was gonna feel, uh, I send to my dad. He's like, I love it. Very simply like, it's great, buddy. Love it. I'm like, wow. That was like, not what I expected you to say. Like, it takes this huge weight off my shoulders and like, makes me happy that, he's like, no, I know. I know what's going on. Like, you know, it wasn't like this, like kids gloves, hey dad, this is how you look. He was like, oh, hell yeah. See, I look cool, dude.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  So that was nice.

• 45:33Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. And you haven't even had the premiere yet, so I can't imagine how proud he's gonna be.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  I know.

• 45:37Jay Shetty?

  That moment on the porch, I mean, seeing him choke up and I kind of be like, alright, we just gotta, you know.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:43Jay Shetty?

  I mean, that's, he's so proud, like.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Man, that's one of the most like, I mean, I remember.

• 45:48Jay Shetty?

  Tell me about that moment.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I remember, it's hard for my, I think for me and my dad sometimes to like, address these things. And so it's hard to get emotional about it and so much of me like wants to have that conversation and like to hear him say that he gets it. And I just felt like that was the closest we got. And the fact that it was able to happen for the documentary is amazing, but just for me, that moment was really important. Just like seeing him kind of be like, I know it's complicated and it's hard. And just to feel, to see his pride in me and to see his love for me in that moment, even after I'm sitting there like critiquing his ability to play the song, which I can regret though. I just feel like such a dick, but I was like, it's like, you know, your dad, you've become a little kid again.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  And you're just like, come on dad, just play the right thing. But just seeing him like, get emotional. But just, I could see in his eyes like this, this conversation that we haven't really had, but I could see like, it happened like between us in that moment. Like telepathically almost. And that was like, just really, really, uh, really special for me.

• 46:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. That was something that I really, really will never forget. And I'm really grateful to people that helped me this documentary for like pushing in a way, like us to these moments and to these interactions because it's so easy just to drift away and drift through life and just like go home for Thanksgiving or go home. And go out to dinner and Azeem's already had a great bit about like going to see your parents and like how it's the same thing every time and you leave and you're like, you're happy to leave, but you feel guilty. And I felt that a lot of just like, I feel like I came here and just didn't, we didn't solve or work through anything. We just like worked together and that can be beautiful, but sometimes you want more and like that, those moments with my family like allowed us to confront a lot of things and allowed us to have like moments that we'll remember forever.

• 47:34Jay Shetty?

  It's beautiful, man. Thank you. I can tell it is emotional.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it makes me emotional, man.

• 47:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  I, uh, I just can love my family so much, dude. And like, getting to be close to them in this way, and this journey has been incredibly complicated for everybody, like, you know. Having my family be really exposed to the world, even just without this documentary, just through my album and through promotion of it and through people coming into connection with where we're from and who we are, has been really challenging. And this just felt like a platform for us to kind of like grapple with that together. And even after and like the editing and the conversation about what we wanted to be in the movie, it just allowed us to like heal a little bit, I think. And like, just allowed me to to find like peace with a lot of it. And yeah, it's it's fucking crazy, man.

• 48:26Jay Shetty?

  You've talked so much about today, like, kind of, we've been weaving this idea of mental health and just how important it is to you, the documentary. You speak about it quite openly. Has success made mental health harder in some ways? Or has it made it better in some ways?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  It's so hard to say. Like, my mental health challenges weren't going anywhere, whether I became a musician, like a touring, like, professional musician or whatever I am. They weren't going anywhere. I would have been interested to see how they manifested. I think it's introduced this lifestyle and this like, level of like, like I said, this like self-focused kind of business lifestyle, has created a lot of mental health challenges for me, but also has kind of allowed me to confront them in a way that maybe like if I went to college and went and got a job in an office or somewhere, I could probably more easily not ever deal with it.

• 49:15Jay Shetty?

  Interesting, yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  So in a lot of ways, I think it's helped me, but it's also introduced a lot of different challenges into my life that you see in the documentary, but also just wouldn't be there without music and touring and creative struggle and just all the things that go along with being in this like weird industry.

• 49:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. What's your, what's your most daily or regular experience from a mental health point of view that you, that you, that you go through?

• 49:38Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it is just like self-image and that like extends to like physical image, but also like, mental image. Like, I worry that I've just wasted so much time like hating who I am. And just like being aware of this thing that's happening to me that like, is like, feels like it's grinding me down sometimes and like, and knowing that I have this thing and that knowing that it could be better, but it's not right now. Like, that's My most like I wake up and I'm like, why do I feel like shit like I'm pissed? It's a beautiful morning. The birds are and chirping. It's beautiful outside. I've, you know, career success aside, I have like, I have this like lovely little life. And I wish I could wake up and not be like miserable for no reason. It feels like sometimes and being aware of like those moments that I just can't feel connected.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  It's really lonely. And I think that's probably my like daily. It's like, that's my daily driver, that feeling. I think I kind of that feeling escalates and escalates and I it comes like these bigger, more intense like episodes for me of mental health. But that's what is kind of the backdrop to my day is like, darn, I feel like shit. This sucks. And I have to just like wade through it every day. And it gets easier and there's days that are better and worse, but like generally, I just kind of am feeling like I wish I didn't feel depressed, you know?

• 50:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I thought it was really brave for you to address the body dysmorphia image approach. I wasn't expecting that. And I think you kind of really went there. It felt so courageous in one sense to do that. And of course, honest.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like I don't know. And I say it in the documentary, just like, I don't know where I fit into like the world of this thing I'm going through. I've never really confronted in a way that's like, and this is how I feel about my body. It's like, it's just this thing that lives in the back of my brain that is like more prominent than other times. And it really came out that documentary and like watching that back is like even, I mean, man, even my mom was just like, I had no idea like. Like she knew I had something like that, but she didn't know like how much it was affecting me. And even just seeing myself, I'm like, I don't feel like that right now, but like I do feel like that a lot. And it's like, it's horrible when the thing that you really compartmentalize and you lock away like is now there. And so it's scary for me even to talk to you about it because I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to, I know how.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Much of an issue this is for people and how it can ruin lives and how hard it is for people's mental health. That I'm always so afraid that I'm like, I don't want to represent an issue because I'm afraid of like saying the wrong thing or giving advice or like, I don't know, of like making it feel like I know what I'm talking about because I have no idea. It's just this thing that is there within me. And yeah, really, really difficult concept because it's so tied up in who you are and this feelings you've had since you were a kid that like it's hard to describe like the body dysmorphia problem succinctly. And I, even as you can hear right now, I struggle, I struggle to do it, but it's complicated, man. And it was easy. I think it's easy to say like, I want to talk about that. But when it comes time to talk about it, like I don't

• 52:40Speaker 01

  feel eloquent at all. I don't feel articulate. I feel like it's just this like dreamlike stance that I, that I have to fall into. It's weird.

• 52:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think it's a strange challenge that we put on ourselves and other people to properly articulate these extremely nuanced daily, regular feelings that are, that don't always make sense. Like in one sense, we're trying to finally package up some perfect words around something that changes how we feel about it daily.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:07Jay Shetty?

  And, and it's almost, it's almost an impossible task.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 53:10Jay Shetty?

  Because you're absolutely right that you can feel something one day, people feel it differently. I, I just felt like you don't see a lot of men, especially being able to say that publicly. And so I think it's gonna help a lot of men and just even come into terms with it.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I remember like I have this song called The Shape of My Shadow, which was weirdly one of those like hour moments where I like felt really aware and understanding of my struggle with it. And like, it goes away. But in that moment, I wrote this song and played it live on World Mental Health Day in Florida a few years ago. And was like hearing it being heard for the first time. And then walking offstage and like having people in my, in my crew and people in my life come up to me, be like, dude, like, men especially be like, I, I go through that too.

• 53:58Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  And like, that was fucking cool that you did that, bro. Like I feel that one. And like, people that I wouldn't expect. I think you think like body dysmorphia and like you're looking like, you're like physically looking at somebody and like, how do you look like? Is this person look overweight? Then they'll probably connect with her. Is this person look really scared? They'll probably, it's not how it is, man. Like, it's almost not even about your body at all.

• 54:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  It's, for me, it's not even, I don't think it's even about like what I actually appear to be. It's how we think of ourselves. So these people coming up and saying that to me was like, this is like important. Like this, this is something really, really difficult to articulate and to talk about. And like, the fact that I just had three people that probably wouldn't have said anything to me if I never played that song. Come up and say like, hey dude, like, thank you, or like, I get that. And

• 54:39Jay Shetty?

  That's huge.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  It was really special, man. Eye opening. And it like, makes you feel like more sensitive to people. And like, you just never fucking know what someone's going through, man. Like, you really don't.

• 54:48Jay Shetty?

  You don't.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  And it's easy to like, look at somebody and be like, your life must be so sick. And then be like, man, you have no fucking clue.

• 54:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. And you assume that, right? If someone's like, put together, or looks a certain way, or maybe they're making a decent amount, living, or whatever it may be. It's like, we just go, well, okay, well, you don't have any real problems. So, you know?

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, it's such a good point, man. I always, whenever I come to LA and do like, anything like this, I'm always like, oh, yeah, like, I got driven here in the black SUV, and I'm gonna come here and complain about my shit. Like, people in the world right now, going through so much, and it does feel like there's a push and pull of like, how do I talk about what I'm going through without like, being insensitive to like, people who are struggling in much more significant, are just different, but significant ways. Um, while also not discrediting what I've gone through at the same time. It's been a real challenge for me, uh, to talk about. I hope that in the documentary, people can see that through line through everybody's life, that regardless of

• 55:47Speaker 01

  sex, creed, class, gender identity, um, race, that people can like, find things that connect us, um, like these feelings that are painful. I like to think everybody's experiencing something similar in some way. And maybe that's not true, but that's like, my hope is that there's like, world peace, but like, we all can have a conversation, no matter where we're from, about our mental health, and how it's affecting us. And like, we can hear similarities in some things. And that's what I hope is true. Because with everything, you know, that's going on in the world right now, um, Like how, you know, divided the world is and how awful people are being treated right now. That we can find ways to be brought together through vulnerability and through being honest with each other about how we feel. So.

• 56:30Jay Shetty?

  Is that how you think about making an impact on the world with everything you see? Is that?

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:35Jay Shetty?

  Where you focus?

• 56:36Speaker 01

  I think just trying to be like completely honest about how I feel like whenever I can. Because then it doesn't feel like you have to perform. And I was talking to somebody last night at this like weird party thing. And I was just like, dude, if you start making music, like trying to sound like somebody, then when the time comes to like, you want to be yourself, you have, it's going to feel like you're lying.

• 56:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  So like, if you can just be as honest as you can and like, accept whatever that does for you socially, career wise, emotionally, like. Live and die by that because then you never have to change and you never have to adjust your presentation. All you have to do is reach within, which you've been doing forever. Anyway. So.

• 57:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 57:15Jay Shetty?

  Well said.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And that's, I think that's the difference also between actors and musicians. Like, you know, an actor does have to pretend to be someone and.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:23Jay Shetty?

  That does affect their personality and it does affect their self-image and it. It, it can deeply affect everything from the way they speak to the way they look or.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Have you done acting?

• 57:31Jay Shetty?

  I have not in a, any, yeah, not in any major.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  I always wonder how you bring, I wonder if the best actors bring in, like they bring in more of themselves in a way to this different character so that it like creates something relatable.

• 57:42Jay Shetty?

  Yes. Yeah. So I think there's, I forget what the technique's called from some study that I've done in the space with some clients that I have. Who've, who are actors and they talk about that where it's like, if you, you can't pretend to have an emotion. So you've got to find the emotion or the experience within yourself to, to bring it out. But at the same time, I think a lot of people. If you're, especially if you're doing a biopic.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 58:03Jay Shetty?

  You, you can find the emotion within yourself, but ultimately you're still becoming someone else to some degree.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Is there a part of you that feels that way? And like, how do you get comfortable approaching that? It almost reminds me like of the music and the documentary of just like. How do you go back into this space over and over again? Like it's painful, dude. It's gotta be painful because we all have. Like smaller, I think some people have bigger parts of that, that kind of character than, than others do. But like we all, I think we all have like. Cynical parts of us and like

• 58:31Jay Shetty?

  For sure.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  And like angry parts of us, but like some people just don't have as much access or don't have as big of angry bone inside of them. But like, it's gotta be hard to have to like live in that moment.

• 58:42Jay Shetty?

  I think that's actually where real compassion comes from. Like when you can look at your own heart and notice that it has all of these abilities and has aspects of all of these things that you may not live on a daily basis. But you start seeing and you go, oh, I, I see how that comes out for someone else. Because I've seen that in me.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 59:02Jay Shetty?

  Even if it's tiny, if that makes sense.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Totally, man. It's like, I always think like, the goal isn't to be like a perfect person at all. Like, the goal is to understand the parts of you that make you happy and like try to access those. But it's also important to dip into the stuff that like you don't like and to question it and to approach it and look at it. In the documentary, I say like, I'm finally looking at this thing. Like, it used to be, I think, you know, talking about bodies more if you're just mental, the mental illness stuff, like, it used to be this thing that I was like ashamed of in such a big way, that I wouldn't even want to look at it. Like, I would just like sprint past the door where the thing was inside. And now I'm like, finally, like, just like brushing it with my hand, you know, and being like, all right, like this thing is in there. I'm getting better at approaching and I'm getting better at like, understanding that

• 59:46Speaker 01

  it is there and not being so afraid of it.

• 59:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  It's that's, that journey has been, has been helpful for me.

• 59:53Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's almost like the monster under the bed. Like, if you pretend that it's not there, you know, you're scared.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  It just gets bigger.

• 1:00:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it just gets bigger and you've got to, got to go and check and notice that, oh, okay, brushed apart, you know, it's so important. And I think for so long, like, of course, we want to be in the light, we want to do good work, but you can't avoid the darkness and those elements that exist. As you said, our shame and guilt.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can, like, it does find other ways to manifest. And I think it's much healthier to like, in my opinion, like, sitting down with a therapist is like, the most important thing you can do with these feelings is like, expressing them in a safe, unbiased place where like, you could say whatever you want and not feel like you're going to be judged for it. Because if you don't, I do feel like, we have to find a way to cope and we have to find a way to keep not feeling it. And like, addiction, you know, for me, eating, binge eating, not eating, is how I deal with a lot of stuff. And I'm realizing that's because I don't talk about it enough. And so I keep wanting it to go away and go away and go away. But then I find myself engaging in these behaviors, engaging in these behaviors that really make me unhappy and make me feel even worse. It's this horrible cycle of just like, The thing you think you're doing to help is actually making it harder.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  And then it just kind of repeats itself and repeats itself. And, and you do it for so fucking long that the grooves in your brain, there's a little train going through your head that only knows one path. And like, it gets deeper and deeper and deeper. And it never has a way to go anywhere else because you just have lived this one routine for so long. And so, you know, going to therapy, which I've been doing my whole life, but I feel like I wasn't really doing in a real way until like five or six, seven years ago, where I started to really like go into it.

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• 1:02:05Jay Shetty?

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• 1:04:07Jay Shetty?

  What was the difference between going to therapy and then doing therapy?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like I said, I like, my mom and my dad were always so supportive of me, like, and my siblings going to get help and going to talk about our feelings. We've all kind of gone through a lot of similar mental health struggles. Thanks, mom and dad. No, and they've been so supportive and like, always sent us to therapists. But I think like, for a while, I was just immature and like, didn't want to talk to somebody. And also, it's hard when you're a kid and like,

• 1:04:34Jay Shetty?

  Totally, I mean.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  To be like, oh, this 48-year-old dude is like, here to ask you about all this stuff. And like, obviously, you're like, I don't want to talk about it. And you can kind of live your life for a long time, like saying the right things, but not actually like really letting anyone hear anything.

• 1:04:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  And saying things that sound like you're being emotionally vulnerable or picking and choosing different things that you'll talk about and certain things that you won't talk about. And it's all connected. So when you start doing that, you're actually not really touching the whole thing, which is it's all connected to like one great, larger mental health thing. Didn't sound very eloquent, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like,

• 1:05:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  is I didn't really commit myself to getting better because I wanted to selfishly, self-centeredly do it on my own and only like express certain fears and emotions to people because I was still afraid of talking about them. And I think when I started seeing this new therapist, and so much of it is about the person you see. Cause I've had bad experiences with therapists and like, once you open up to somebody and they like, they don't respect that, it becomes really hard to go talk to somebody else. Like it's like you open up to a friend and like,

• 1:05:39Jay Shetty?

  It's like a breakup.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then someone like uses that against you or they laugh at you or they like make you feel crazy. It's not like, okay, I'll try it on the next person. It's like, no, I'm never touching that again.

• 1:05:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  You're carrying that. It's like a breakup. Like you hurt me and like, I'm not opening myself up again. Sorry.

• 1:05:53Jay Shetty?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  So it was kind of being willing to open up again, finding the right person and then like feeling safe. And then slowly just like realizing how much more there was than the kind of headlines of what I thought my feelings and issues were and like being asked questions that maybe dig a little deeper and like being willing to cry and say, I don't want to talk about this. And what was really complicated for me, what's still complicated is like, and I do say this in the documentary is, is being a mental health advocate, you know, like having this mental health charity, which like we're also proud of.

• 1:06:26Jay Shetty?

  Beautiful, really beautiful.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Present, thank you. And presenting myself as someone that like has an answer or has like a focus and like is going to be really open and emotionally vulnerable all the time. And then not feeling like I was really practicing that in my personal life. It makes it hard in therapy to like, accept that I don't have all the answers. And it kind of creates this feeling like you're not being honest about who you are. And that was really difficult.

• 1:06:47Jay Shetty?

  What, what's the, what's the best question your therapist ever asked you?

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  I think it's like, do you want this to be what's happening to you? I know in some ways, like, is it so much easier for you to cause yourself pain and to hurt yourself? And is that actually something that you're is bringing you comfort? Like, is this like in pain that you're inflicting on yourself emotionally? Occasionally physically, like, is it actually something that you have become comfortable with? It's like, is it this longtime friend of yours that you don't want to leave? Because you feel like you're betraying something and like betraying this childhood pain or whatever it is? That was a great question and made me think about it. Cause I think I've always been like, I hate this thing. Like, I want to get rid of this, but like, no, I sometimes like, no, I don't.

• 1:07:32Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Like, and she's like, I don't know if you, I don't know if you do, like, do you? Because it feels like

• 1:07:38Jay Shetty?

  Interesting.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  You want the comfort of this thing you've had for a long time. And it's become such a big part of your life that you don't know who you are without it. And it's scarier to be someone that's happy, but not not familiar with something than to be unhappy, but feel like you're in the safety of your own unhappiness. Oh, that was, that sounded great.

• 1:07:58Jay Shetty?

  You saw my reaction.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Damn dude. I put that in the song. But that was like the most important thing. I think she's asked me and she's asked me, she's just so wonderful. I don't, I hope my therapist isn't watching this, but thank you so much. But that question really helped me understand the context of what I was, what I was really feeling.

• 1:08:16Jay Shetty?

  Hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of people will get a lot from asking that question to themselves or hopefully going through that with their therapist. I think you said after, in the 2024 Grammy party, you were like talking about parties earlier. You were saying you felt like the least cool guy there.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:31Jay Shetty?

  And it was like, that was the feeling you were having at that time. And that goes back to that image and grappling with that.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Jay Shetty?

  Emotion. And is there a bit more peace now? Because that was your first time being there, right? It was like your

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Jay Shetty?

  Nominate, like, do you think that is natural when you're doing something new and first time? And then it goes away, like?

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I, I think like, I think I really like wanted the experience to be what I'd always dreamed of, because I'd always dreamed of that experience. And so like, I got in there and the vision of like, what I thought I was going to feel and what I thought it was going to look like, like, just wasn't. And what it was and I just kind of felt like outside of all of it and it wasn't anyone's fault. It was really just me not having the confidence to like engage with this new experience and wanted to be comfortable. Um, and so I felt really isolated and then my mom is like talking to everybody and she everyone loves her and like, I'm like, damn, my mom's so cool. And I'm just sitting here, my mom and Brandy Carlisle are talking and like, my mom loves Brandy and, and like, I just kind of felt like the kid in the cafeteria that like, didn't have anyone to sit with.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  And just knowing that like, the end of the night, the only like measure of success I was, I was putting into the night was if I won this Grammy or not.

• 1:09:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Um, because I had built this thing up to be so important to me. And so it kind of made me feel like I had no purpose in the room. I had felt like my purpose was, um, was no longer needed. And that was no one's fault and it was on me for putting all the stock into this award. But I didn't feel cool. And then I lost along with, you know, many others who like, I'm always curious to see how they would deal with it. Cause I was so sad and I was like, obviously happy for the person that won truly and like grateful that I was even nominated and like, just like walk into a room full of people who like, I was so worried were gonna be like disappointed and like, not mad at me, but like, almost like their experience was that they wanted me to win. Like I was projecting how I thought everyone wanted this night to go.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  And so like walking into the room with like my family, my friends, my wife, like all these people, my team who had worked so hard and like just feeling the disappointment, like just really made me feel like I was on an island and that I like had let everybody down in my life. And I felt like, I feel like I let my fans down. I was like, I wanted this so bad. Like, I'm sorry, guys.

• 1:10:40Jay Shetty?

  We wanted it for you too.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. They, I think they did, man. Um, I know that's not the case, but this time it's like, I feel like I've gone through so much since then. And like reevaluating what I care about and like realizing that what I care most about is a story that I can tell with my music and the music that I can make. And that no one can, can take it away from me. No one can vote on it and, and no one else can have it. Uh, and like nurturing this thing. And so coming back, you know, having a new album, feeling like I'm really excited about it, really proud of it. Proud of the journey that I went on to get to making this album, which was really difficult. And, and like, that's where my confidence is coming from right now. Not from whether I have good songs or not, but just knowing that I went through something and I'm on the other side now.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Uh, when I was at the 24 Grammys, I was like grappling with all this creative insecurity and this insecurity about where my career was gonna go. And I thought that a Grammy was gonna like, like that like thing on the image you see on like, like a meme or whatever. Like the guy puts like one piece of duct tape on the giant exploding water tank. Like, I think that was what I was hoping the Grammy would be for me.

• 1:11:43Jay Shetty?

  That's good. That's really good.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Um, and like, it was never gonna be that anyways. And so like, knowing that now makes me more like at peace with just like being able to be in this conversation, being able to be um, amongst his peers that I have that are incredible musicians and um, yeah, I feel, I feel, I don't feel cooler, but I feel more comfortable in like my own skin and my own presence.

• 1:12:04Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I really appreciate the way you process that for us, because I think 99% of us are always dealing with situations where we felt like we lost or failed or. But it's, it seems like you've addressed a really powerful pattern that I think's come up a few times in that when you're watching the documentary with your father, you're like, wait, what's his experience of it? And even now, when you're talking about being at the Grammys, you're like, what's everyone else's expectation of it? And it seems like you've really addressed like a really powerful pattern of something that seems to come up for you, which is always projecting what you think other people's experiences. And that's really powerful that you can see that as being a sign of whenever you're doing something big or incredible.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Bro, it's, projection is like so difficult because it's, it forces you to question like everything you've thought about other people's perception of you. Um, and also like as my career has like grown, like there's, I mean, you saw it today. I'm almost lovely in people around me in the world.

• 1:12:57Jay Shetty?

  They're wonderful. Yeah.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Amazing. Every single person that I get to work with like is awesome. And that's very rare, you know, especially in the music industry where you get people that are like there for the wrong reasons or whatever. But like, whenever you go, you have style and hair and PR and management and label and whatever, agent and all these people around you, like you kind of feel like they're like, they like need it to go well. Like that's a projection. And so you start like. Being like, are you guys having fun? Like, are you guys doing this? Are you guys enjoying this? Like, did I do good enough for you guys?

• 1:13:27Jay Shetty?

  It's like dad energy and kid energy at the same time.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Totally, dude. I think like it all ties back to like that thing around the dinner table and like wanting to be heard and wanting to be accepted and wanting people to think that you have value. And when you can't find that in here in your heart or in your, in your, your brain, like you need to be provided by other people. And I'm struggling with that right now, like just with my album coming out and just like how I'm gonna like take in responses to it, good and, and bad. I think like every good comment and every bad comment like have a similar, I have a similar reaction from me actually, like they move me so much. You know, like if I said, someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone says that I suck, I'm like, I suck. Like, I wanna find somewhere in the middle where like I can still have my own belief in myself.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Equilibrium is a great way to put it. I would love to find more of that in my life.

• 1:14:18Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it, and it's such a hard place to live because we are so used to being really pumped up with the highs. And I always feel like the more pumped up you get with the highs, the more pulled down you get with the lows. And, and that's the experience we all have. And all I can say is honestly, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this with your team listening, but I, I listened to what you did send us with the team, with my team, because everyone's a fan. And everyone loved it. And it was just like, this is like, you know, yeah, exactly. It just, yeah. And, and it was, it was genuinely that experience where we were listening to it. And because as we were, I was thinking about the interview and I was thinking about like, I know no one's really thinking about this, I mean, for whatever it's worth. And, and I think that equilibrium is what we all need to rise for. And it's something I pursued deeply and, and focus on.

• 1:14:59Jay Shetty?

  And I found it was only when I could detach equally from the good and the bad.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Totally, dude.

• 1:15:05Jay Shetty?

  And it was like, if I kept letting the good pump me up, the bad was always gonna hit me. And so I had to find, and it wasn't rejecting the good, because that also didn't work. Because for a while I tried to like reject good.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  That's what I asked, how do you do it?

• 1:15:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, if someone was like, well, I'm still working on it too. I haven't fully figured it out, but I feel like I'm getting closer all the time. So in the beginning, I was like, same as what you're saying. Someone says something good, amazing. If someone says something bad, I feel sad. Then I did the opposite where I was rejecting both. So if someone said something good, I'd be like, all right, whatever, like. I don't need to know. And if someone says something bad, I'll be like, oh, I don't need to know.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  And that's where that's the part I'm at now.

• 1:15:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And I was like, that doesn't work either because now and then and then what I started to realize was I I allowed the good to go in deeper and I allowed the bad to almost be filtered more clearer. And what I mean by that is instead of the good going to my head and my ego and my that that kind of like arrogance, it was going to my heart as fuel for like, this is why I do what I do.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Got you.

• 1:16:02Jay Shetty?

  So if someone said to me like, hey, your work, you know, would you like your work helped me to save my marriage or not commit suicide? Or whatever it is. I was like, oh, let me really access that. Like, don't just take it as like this.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:15Jay Shetty?

  Buzz like dopamine. Yeah. It's like, take it, take it where it lands. And then when you get back, when you get feedback or you get the bad, it's like, oh, let me not take that to my heart. And let me actually allow that to be like, or let me get the clarity of what could I improve or what could I work on?

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  So complicated, man, but so smart.

• 1:16:30Jay Shetty?

  It's subtle. It's very subtle, but it's helping at least. I'm not saying it's the end. I I think there's multiple layers to it.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Can I ask you more about that?

• 1:16:37Jay Shetty?

  Of course.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  Sorry to interrupt you.

• 1:16:38Jay Shetty?

  Oh, no, no, go on.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Like letting the good in, and I totally feel that because like, I think I've started to do that as well. It's like, this isn't just like a dopamine hit. Like, I'm not putting this in my mouth right now. This is like, there's something there that's important that like I have to internalize to help me do it again and do more of it. And like to kind of like hone in on that specific thing. But how when someone says something hurtful to you or like, I guess it's like hate versus criticism are two different conversations. But like, when someone says something hurtful to you, like, how are you taking that in? How do you let that in? Because it just like, it can like sits in my stomach and like makes me feel like shit.

• 1:17:12Jay Shetty?

  Oh, yeah, I can relate.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, horrible.

• 1:17:15Jay Shetty?

  Definitely relate. Yeah, it's the worst. Uh, I think what I've tried to do is to try and separate if possible. And not everything is, right? It's like, if you've got muddy water, there's mud and water. And my job is to get the water and remove the mud so that I can give drinking water to myself and the people I love.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Jay Shetty?

  And so my job is to be a sieve or a filter to be able to go, all right, let me take the mud out, which is the sting, the. The pain, the hurt, the ego, the arrogance and see if there's any water left for me to hold.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:49Jay Shetty?

  And if there is, then that water will actually rest quite beautifully and perfectly.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Jay Shetty?

  And now I don't have to take it in. It's something I just have to hold and make space for, but I'm not gonna hold on to the mud and the sting and the arrow because that's the part that pierces through us and

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Jay Shetty?

  breaks us down.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  That's really, really beautiful, man.

• 1:18:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it takes practice. Like, I'm not saying I do it all the time and I'm not saying I don't fail at this all the time, but it's like, I think that practice has been really helpful because accepting both didn't work, rejecting both didn't work, and the Buddha always talked about the middle path and it's always like, if you're gonna hold something, don't hold it too tight, but then you can't hold it too loosely. So it's like, how do you hold something just beautifully?

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Jay Shetty?

  It's almost like how you'd hold your wife's hand.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  I don't wanna go from Buddha to golf, but golf, it's like, so you wanna have like a bird in your hand that you're not gonna crush, but you won't let get away.

• 1:18:35Jay Shetty?

  That's a Buddha, that's actually, that's actually.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Oh, no way. Alright, we gotta get you on the golf course. But dude, that's.

• 1:18:41Jay Shetty?

  Like, if you're holding your wife's hand.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:43Jay Shetty?

  You're not gonna squish it, whereas like she never wants, like, you're like, oh, you're never gonna leave. But you're never gonna hold it softly where you don't have any affection. It's like, how would you, I feel like, holding my wife's hand is like a good.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  That's a really good analogy. I mean, that's a really brilliant way to do it. I have like really struggled to accept criticism and like, and, I mean, any like hate or anything like that.

• 1:19:04Jay Shetty?

  Dude, me too, and I think there is a difference. Like, I think you have to.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  There's some shit that's just like, oh, you.

• 1:19:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, totally, totally.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  There's some stuff that's like that. But even criticism can be hard, like.

• 1:19:12Jay Shetty?

  For sure.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Take it so hard and like.

• 1:19:14Jay Shetty?

  And I think it's hard because we don't deeply receive in the heart the good.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Jay Shetty?

  It's kinda, cause it's just the dopamine.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Jay Shetty?

  So it's like, we deeply receive the bad.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  That's so true. And it's like, that's all I actually feel, right?

• 1:19:25Jay Shetty?

  Literally.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  I think that's why we like, sometimes I watch like these horror movies and I'm like, oh man, I hate the part where they're all like happy in the beginning. I'm like, get to the part where they're all getting fucking chopped up, you know, that's like what, that's this thing inside of us that like,

• 1:19:36Jay Shetty?

  Dopamine, yeah.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  That feels more like, for some people, or for me, it feels more like, that's the stuff that reaches you more, cause it's painful and scary.

• 1:19:43Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Um, I'm not a psycho. Uh, but dude, that's really, really eye opening for me, like, and I want so bad to work on that.

• 1:19:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  And work on accepting the good too. And I, I'm like, I'm a rejector of the good a lot of the times because I've, it's like this superstition of like, have I let any good in, then like, then it'll all go away. Cause like, I need to be, like I said, like I need to be in pain. But there's gotta be a way, like you said, to like, to, to take it without it killing me, but with, with also like, in a way that I can take the lesson away from it.

• 1:20:12Jay Shetty?

  I love that, man.

• 1:20:20Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too. Like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been

• 1:21:02Jay Shetty?

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• 1:22:08Jay Shetty?

  Noah, you've been amazing today, like truly I've

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:22:10Jay Shetty?

  I feel like you're the easiest guy to talk to. You're like so much fun to hang with like I'm like, I hope we get to do this offline, but uh

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Me too, man.

• 1:22:17Jay Shetty?

  We end every episode with a couple of segments that I want to take you through. These are fun because you're such a fun loving guy. So now

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Before you go though, I want to say thank you, man. Because like getting to talk about this kind of stuff in this way like is not common for me. And so it really means a lot like in listening, do you care about the questions you're asking and the responses? Just for me, it's been like really cool and um, you know, I've listened to your show and and everyone says like this dude is the man and like you are awesome and like your intention like into the world for what you're doing is really, really special. And right now I need it more than ever. So thank you, dude. Like for real, you're the shit. Like I would say this off camera, I'll say it on camera. Like you are awesome, bro. Thank you.

• 1:22:56Jay Shetty?

  Oh, man, that really touched my heart. Thank you for saying that.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  I mean it, dude.

• 1:22:58Jay Shetty?

  I'm uh, I'm practicing, I'm practicing what I said earlier, which is really allowing that

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  And then I'll say something shitty to you.

• 1:23:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And then I'm gonna try and figure that out.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  But Nah, man. Thank you, bro. I think it's been

• 1:23:09Jay Shetty?

  No, that honestly, that means the world for me coming from you and and this is like this hasn't even felt like an interview. I feel like

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:23:15Jay Shetty?

  You just like honestly, like those are my favorite conversations where I feel like we've just been talking and I could talk to you for another few hours.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  I was like, I know it's over, bro.

• 1:23:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I know. I mean, I could keep going. I just want to be mindful of your time. But uh, these are some fun segments because you're such a fun loving guy to end with. And I was like, yeah, this guy's music's so deep, but he's just such a good time.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Like it's, it's uh

• 1:23:34Jay Shetty?

  So all right, these, these are two little games that we got. And then we have a final five that we do with every guest. If you've listened, you would know. This is called would you rather?

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:23:43Jay Shetty?

  Wave back at someone who wasn't waving at you or tell your server at a restaurant, you too, after they tell you enjoy your meal.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Dude, there is nothing in the world worse than waving at someone that doesn't wave back at you, bro. It's gotta be the server one because they walk right away. The wave one, they're like, they're gonna see that for a few seconds as they pass you. Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:00Jay Shetty?

  That's worse.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Way worse.

• 1:24:02Jay Shetty?

  Okay. Trip and fall on stage at one of your concerts or forget the lyrics to your song while performing on national TV.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  I've tripped and fallen so many times, tripped and fallen so many times that people are like almost expecting it. So I'd say trip, tripping and falling, forgetting where's national TV.

• 1:24:15Jay Shetty?

  And you just pop right back up.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  You just gotta get back up and go, dude.

• 1:24:19Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. Be extremely self-aware or completely oblivious?

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  When you're just talking about this. Ooh, I wanna say be completely oblivious, but like, it would kind of like spit in the face the conversation we just had. I'd say be completely self-aware, cuz there's always room to, you can make yourself a little bit more oblivious if you want to.

• 1:24:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Send a text by accident to the person you're talking about, or accidentally like a really old photo while stalking them on Instagram.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so tough cuz the text one could be terrible depending on what you're saying, but liking the old photo is like crazy. Like, I've had that happen to me, obviously, and like, people are like, dude, what are you doing? The amount of times you must have scrolled to get to that photo. I think sending a text by accident, but those are both bad things.

• 1:24:59Jay Shetty?

  They're both bad, yeah. Your dog can talk and has a very strong personality that clashes with yours. Or, or your dog can't talk, but they don't really like you.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  That's what I already have, dude. I have German Shepherds who look at me, they're just like, yeah, you're gonna play video games again? Another spliff? Great. Like, I think probably dogs that don't like me cuz I can convince myself that they're just like, look mean.

• 1:25:21Jay Shetty?

  I love it. Play around with Tiger Woods, but you accidentally hit him with the ball on the very first hole. Or play the best game of your life at a fancy country club, but you're alone and can never tell a soul how good your game was.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Oh dude, these are really hard.

• 1:25:36Jay Shetty?

  They're very hard.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  I think I would probably curl up into a ball and die if I hit Tiger Woods with a golf ball. I think I'd have to just play by myself and play well, which doesn't happen to me anyway, so, perfect.

• 1:25:45Jay Shetty?

  So it's not really a choice?

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:47Jay Shetty?

  Alright, so this game's called Gut Reaction. Noah, just complete the sentence. My favorite compliment to receive is?

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  I love your shoes. I love getting a compliment in my shoes.

• 1:25:57Jay Shetty?

  I was actually gonna ask you where your shoes are from when you walked in today, and I waited cuz I was like, I need a pair of those.

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  It's happening.

• 1:26:02Jay Shetty?

  It's happening, it's happening. I was genuinely gonna ask you.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, I don't know.

• 1:26:05Jay Shetty?

  I need, I've been looking for shoes with those laces for a while.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, these kind of laces are nice.

• 1:26:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. I want, I want, yeah. Alright, we'll talk about shoes later. My guilty pleasure artist or song is?

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Oh, Send Me On My Way, Rusted Root.

• 1:26:17Jay Shetty?

  Okay, alright. Uh, the most unhinged thought I've had this week was?

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Oh dude, I was driving and I was had this intrusive thought where I was like, that's probably like some OCD shit, but I was like, I could just like swerve into that lane and just like everything up, bro.

• 1:26:31Jay Shetty?

  I have had that thought before.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Isn't it crazy?

• 1:26:33Jay Shetty?

  It's so crazy. I mean, you're like, wait a minute, why did my brain go there?

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  You're like, oh, Jesus Christ. And I'm like, I'm like, then I'm like rearranging my hands to make sure I'm like very much staying in my own lane. But yeah, that's probably my craziest one.

• 1:26:42Jay Shetty?

  The hill I will die on for no reason is?

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Mac and cheese is just like not very good. I think it's like a pretty creatively boring dish, like literally just wheat and cheese melted. Like, I feel like caveman probably was the first person to make mac and cheese. And I think people go a little too crazy for it. People get too excited. They make it in such large quantities as well.

• 1:27:01Jay Shetty?

  You and my wife would have a big debate over that.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  I know. People really don't like when I say that.

• 1:27:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, you and my wife would. Uh, the weirdest place I've written a song is?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  I wrote a song in the bathroom of JFK one time, which was crazy. Yeah, like it's like, I think I was hungover and I just, it just came to me and I was like, this would be a fun story to tell if I finished the song and I like wrote a whole song on my phone. It hasn't come out, but uh, if it ever does, that'll be a fun one to tell.

• 1:27:24Jay Shetty?

  Okay, so it's not out yet?

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're a little taking a shit, brother. That's what it's gonna be called.

• 1:27:30Jay Shetty?

  Uh, one thing my wife makes fun of me for is?

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I like to just sit there and we get these big bags of uh, Tootsie Roll, mini Tootsie Roll pops and I'll sit there and one bite, just crunch the entire thing. I'll do like 50 in a row. She calls it crunch time. And uh, it's just hilarious because you just hear my teeth like shattering against the lollipop and she's like, I think she doesn't, I think she just hates it. I don't think she makes fun of it as much, but that's a weird thing that I do around my wife.

• 1:27:54Jay Shetty?

  Do you do it on purpose now?

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  I just love it, dude. I can't, I don't have the patience to like lick it or whatever. I'm just like, like in my teeth, my incisors do, they just destroy that thing.

• 1:28:02Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. Alright, uh, which fellow music star would you call to help you bury a dead body?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm calling my buddy Niall Horan. I think he, I think he would do it with me.

• 1:28:13Jay Shetty?

  Nice, alright. That's a good, that was quick. You were like.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  I know. Now we'll do it. He owes me one.

• 1:28:19Jay Shetty?

  And the last one of these for Gut Reaction. First artist you'd want next to you on a long bus tour ride?

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Ooh, oh my god. My buddy Corey Harper. Awesome singer songwriter, one of my best friends in the world and just like the funniest man alive. Yeah.

• 1:28:33Jay Shetty?

  Amazing. Gut reaction, you were good. That was great.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Thanks, that was fun. Those are your questions.

• 1:28:37Jay Shetty?

  You were really impressive. All right. Final five, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:44Jay Shetty?

  Usually one sentence. First question. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Be where your feet are.

• 1:28:51Jay Shetty?

  Great. Well, second question. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  Play it safe.

• 1:28:56Jay Shetty?

  Yep. Question number three. What's something you used to value that you don't anymore?

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  I don't value like my physical appearance as much as I used to.

• 1:29:05Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wish I could expand.

• 1:29:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, please.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Oh, I can? Oh, I only got one sentence?

• 1:29:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, no, no, I want you to.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  Like, it took me a long time to be comfortable the way I looked, like my face, the way I look. And, well, I want to be healthy and I want to have a better body image. I don't like need people to think I'm attractive. And that's been a cool thing, just kind of got to be myself.

• 1:29:22Jay Shetty?

  That sounds really freeing.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's dope.

• 1:29:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's awesome, man. Love hearing that. Question number four. What's something that you didn't value that you value now?

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  My time. I think I was, I value my time more than I, I value my time more than I ever have. I always wanted to grind so hard and like be the dog that just like works as hard or harder than anybody else. And now I'm like so much like this is my time. I'm gonna do what makes me feel good in this moment instead of like feeling like I need to be doing a million things.

• 1:29:51Jay Shetty?

  I love that. And fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  That's a great, that is a great question. I was gonna say using your blinker when you turn, but that's actually already a law and people just don't fucking follow it.

• 1:30:06Jay Shetty?

  That's a great answer.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Uh, if I could create one law, you are not legally allowed to post videos of fireworks. Like, I'm so tired of seeing people post videos of like, 4th of July. I'm like, dude, that looks horrible. No one sees what you're fucking trying to look at. You're laughing, your hands are shaking, like just enjoy the fireworks, dude. That's it.

• 1:30:25Jay Shetty?

  That's brilliant. That is hilarious. We've never had that in the history of the show. So that is a great answer.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  That's like, I might actually like, I might need to like start petitioning for that to become a real law.

• 1:30:34Jay Shetty?

  I love it. Noah, you are such a good time. I hope you, I hope you genuinely felt seen and heard today on the show. I hope you felt you got to share in a safe space what you're going through and.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Really did, man.

• 1:30:44Jay Shetty?

  You know, and I long may this continue. I hope you'll come back. Hope we'll do a lot more of this.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Dude, totally. And yeah, let's go play pickleball or something sometime. I love hanging out with you outside of it. And I appreciate being on the show. It's really, really cool experience and very helpful. And hopefully people hear this. And yeah, like we both want, feel heard. So, thank you, man.

• 1:31:02Jay Shetty?

  Thank you, man. Thank you. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin.

• 1:31:10Speaker 04

  Follow your own inner guide. It directs us. It might not make sense, might not make sense to us, might not make sense to anyone else, certainly won't make sense to anyone else. And that's okay. It's fine.

• 1:31:23Speaker 05

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop. Because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out. Knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:31:52Speaker 06

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 1:31:54Speaker 07

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 1:31:56Speaker 06

  Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one.

• 1:31:59Speaker 07

  Mmm.

• 1:32:01Speaker 07

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 1:32:03Speaker 06

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 1:32:07Speaker 07

  Taylor Hansen? Nice. Try one. Mmm.

• 1:32:15Speaker 06

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.

• 1:32:23Speaker 08

  This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden. A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece, following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames. The complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden, October 1st, only on Netflix.