How to Be More Optimistic with Simon Sinek

Simon Sinek https://simonsinek.com is an optimist, bestselling author of Start with Why https://www.amazon.com/Start-Why-Leaders-Inspire-Everyone/dp/1591846447, and founder of The Optimism Company. In this special episode of Office Hours, part of the Be Hope podcast takeover https://globalgoals.org/behope/ during the United Nations General Assembly, Simon joins me to explore what optimism really requires. We discuss how optimism differs from hope, why relationships help us sustain a belief in a better future, how our expectations shape others, and why pessimism has become so powerful. We also explain how leaders can turn optimism into action through a clear vision, and how each of us can become more optimistic by creating space to imagine a better future and finding a vision worth pursuing. — Brought to you by: • Noble Mobile https://noblemobile.com/arthurbrooks—With Noble, there is only one plan: The No-Bull Plan. It’s simple. It’s transparent. And if you use less data, you get cash back. Get an exclusive offer at:https://noblemobile.com/arthurbrookshttps://noblemobile.com/arthurbrooks. • Magic Mind https://magicmind.com/—Magic Mind is a mental performance shot with vitamins and clinically-backed ingredients like Ashwagandha and Lion’s Mane for a sharper mind and sustained energy. Get 50% off your first order at magicmind.com http://magicmind.com/. — Where to find Simon Sinek: • X: https://x.com/simonsinek • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonsinek • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simonsinek • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/simonsinek • Podcast: https://simonsinek.com/podcast • Website: https://simonsinek.com Where to find Arthur Brooks: • Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://arthurbrooks.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://arthurbrooks.com/ • In-person Retreats: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://retreats.arthurbrooks.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://retreats.arthurbrooks.com/ • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.arthurbrooks.com/newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.arthurbrooks.com/newsletter • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/arthurbrooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://x.com/arthurbrooks • Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/arthurcbrooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/arthurcbrooks/ • Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/ArthurBrooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.facebook.com/ArthurBrooks/ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGuyFRjJQFGCKzfHTBvWM6A⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGuyFRjJQFGCKzfHTBvWM6A • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-c-brooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-c-brooks/ • Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ mailto:[email protected] — Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (06:10) How Arthur and Simon met (07:24) Why Simon defines himself as an optimist (13:10) The difference between optimism and hope (19:15) How expectations shape relationships and behavior (28:31) Why optimism is on the decline (30:39) Why we need leaders with vision (34:48) How to be more optimistic (42:42) Optimism in politics (50:11) Four lessons for becoming more optimistic (53:55) Advice for leaders — Referenced: • The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness: https://www.arthurbrooks.com/the-meaning-of-your-life • Arthur’s newsletter:https://www.arthurbrooks.com/newsletter • The Happiness Scale:https://learn.arthurbrooks.com/the-happiness-scale • The Pursuit of Happiness with Arthur Brooks: https://www.thefp.com/s/the-pursuit-of-happiness-with-arthur • Be Hope Podcast Takeover: https://globalgoals.org/behope/ • The U. N. General Assembly 2026: https://www.un.org/en/high-level-week-2026 • The Power of Why | Simon Sinek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0rOB91WEOk • ... References continued at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.arthurbrooks.com/office-hours⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.arthurbrooks.com/office-hours

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Arthur Brooks?

  Your moniker is not, you know, acclaimed holy speaker, number one New York Times bestselling author, it's optimist. What does that mean?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  We're defining ourselves by our jobs or something we did 20 years ago. And the problem with that is the accomplishments get further and further away, become less and less relevant. And what happens when you no longer have the job? Then who are you? I'm very strict about defining myself by who I am, so that if I stop doing any of the things I do, I'll always be an optimist till the day I die. People say to me things like, how can you be an optimist in these times? And my answer is always the same, which is like, well, what good is it being optimist when everything's perfect? Find a story that explains why all the sacrifice, all the heartache, all the two steps back are worth it. You could make more money, work fewer hours, you could do something else.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  What is so important in the world that all that suffering is worth it?

• 1:01Arthur Brooks?

  Hi friends, welcome to Office Hours. I'm Arthur Brooks. This is a show about love and happiness and how we can use those ideas in our own lives and the lives of other people, specifically focusing on science and ideas. Thank you for continuing to watch the show. If it's your first time, welcome. I hope that you'll come back. And if you like it, if you've been here a long time, or this is your first week, please do like and subscribe. That's one of the ways that we can train the algorithm, that the algorithm on YouTube or Spotify or Apple or wherever you're getting this to deliver this to more people in their feed. And we want more people to be watching the show because love and happiness, who doesn't need it, right? As always, if you have comments or criticisms, please write to us at [email protected]

• 1:44Arthur Brooks?

  or put them, your ideas in the, or criticisms or comments in the, in the comments below, wherever you're watching or listening to this. Today is a special episode, actually. I'm going to be talking about something that's adjacent to happiness, and that's, that's the subject of hope. I'll tell you who our guest is in a second, but first let's talk about why we would do an episode on hope per se. The reason is because we're teaming up with a collection of other podcasts for what's called a be hope podcast takeover. The invasion of the podcasts, you've probably seen this in other podcasts in your feed. But the idea is to, to spread a message of hope and optimism right now, when the UN General Assembly, the United Nations General Assembly is getting together in New York. That's happening as we air this episode.

• 2:28Arthur Brooks?

  Leaders from around the world are coming together for that, and we want to inspire them. No matter what your views are on the United Nations, what they should or shouldn't be doing, we all want better leaders. We want leaders who are more hopeful, who are more optimistic, and who are getting a better vision of those ideas into the lives of the people that they governed. Well, I'm not doing this episode alone. I typically do, but not today. Today I've got a great friend with me, Simon Sinek. Most of you probably know his work. Simon Sinek is somebody who has been talking about meaning in life and who talks about himself, calls himself an optimist. It's the first word in his bio. He believes in this whole idea of optimism and hope. It's, it comes out of his pores,

• 3:10Arthur Brooks?

  but he's also an intellectual. He talks about what it is and how to get more of it. Simon was actually trained as an ethnographer. He has an interesting academic background. I'm not going to be focusing on that. I'm going to be talking more about what he's found out about people and how to motivate them to be their best selves, companies to be better too, for serving people and creating value, and all the things that he's been talking about in public life. He's gotten pretty famous, as a matter of fact, talking about positive things in a world that's so full of negativity. It's really quite a distinction, I have to say. He's somebody that I personally have a lot of love and respect for. Many of you have seen him appear on stages around the world. You've probably seen him on YouTube as well. He has some unbelievably popular TED Talks.

• 3:54Arthur Brooks?

  His most popular one, the first one that he did was on the concept of why, the power of why, asking why, what is the why of your life? That's been viewed more than 60 million times. That's a lot. His lecture on millennials in the workplace, that's another one that he did, actually reached 80 million views in his first week and has been seen hundreds of millions of times since. He shares his inspiration, his writing through bestselling books, including his big bestseller, Start With Why, also Leaders Eat Last, I'll be talking about that a little bit with him, and The Infinite Game, as well as through his podcast, A Bit of Optimism. You can actually see me on his podcast. I've appeared there numerous times. He's also the founder of The Optimism Company.

• 4:38Arthur Brooks?

  The Optimism Company, I like that, which is a leadership, learning and development company. And he publishes other inspiring thinkers through his publishing partnership with Penguin Random House, called Optimism Press. Simon's a unique guy. He's a guy who lives what he actually talks about and has an interesting life as a result of it, but also gives us ideas on how we can be more optimistic and how leaders can be more optimistic. And you're going to take a lot away from this episode. Right now, you're like Neo in The Matrix. You can keep scrolling, experiencing a simulation of life, or you can wake up to how your attention is being harvested for profit. It's happening to people all over the world right now. You don't want to be productized like this anymore, but it's hard.

• 5:23Arthur Brooks?

  Tech addiction is so potent because it's been designed to tap into your dopamine system, just like heroin, porn, gambling. You've got the cravings, you're addicted. You don't like it, and I don't either. But I can't just tell you to stop doing it. That's hard. If you want to break free from the system, you need an incentive. Here's one. Why don't you join a phone company that pays you not to use your phone? If you want to reduce brain rot, get Noble Mobile. It pays you to use less data. It gives you an incentive to unplug. Noble Mobile is the phone plan that finally aligns incentives with what's good for you. Use less data, earn money back. And when you do, you'll be living once again in real life, and you're going to like how it feels. Simon Sinek, delighted to see you, as always.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  It's a joy. Always good to see you.

• 6:10Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, you know, I was just thinking about this before we started. Do you remember when we met?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  A long time ago, in Philadelphia.

• 6:17Arthur Brooks?

  In Philadelphia, exactly, at a congressional retreat. We were speaking to the assembled numbers of Congress. Do you remember that?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  We were, and we were the only two external speakers.

• 6:26Arthur Brooks?

  Exactly right. And I sat in on your talk.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  And I sat at your talk and realized you were my older brother.

• 6:31Arthur Brooks?

  I regret the older part, but I love the brother part. No, it was great. And, and over the years, we've actually done a lot of things together. We've, we've, we spoke together on stage a few times. We've done the Aspen Ideas Festival. We've also spent some nice personal time together. And your work has been fundamental to my own. Me and so many other people have been, over the years, influenced by, for example, Start With Why, I saw that, I saw that, that famous TEDx talk, TEDx Puget Sound or something, right?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  That is 100% correct, yeah.

• 7:02Arthur Brooks?

  And I saw that and I thought, holy moly, and I thought about it. And only this year, I actually finally wrote a book about the meaning of life.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I knew you'd catch up at some point.

• 7:13Arthur Brooks?

  But of course, I mean, I cite you because how could I not? And the striking thing when I first met you is that you, your, your moniker is not, you know, acclaimed holy speaker, number one New York Times bestselling author, it's optimist. What does that mean?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  So whenever they give me credit for something, or you see my name on the back of a book where I've blurbed the book or something, I'm very strict about it. I always tell them to reference me as optimist and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the other things that I've accomplished. And the reason is very simple, is because I want to be defined by who I am, not what I've done. You know, I think it's funny when you read people's bios, you can, you know, we write our own bios, let's be honest, right? And so you, you, you read someone's bio and it's like CEO of, New York Times bestselling author of, Academy Award winning actor, you know? So we're, we're defining ourselves by our jobs or something we did 20 years ago. And the problem with that is the accomplishments get further and further away, become less and

• 8:10Speaker 01

  less relevant. And what happens when you no longer have the job? Then who are you? And so I'm very strict about defining myself by who I am, so that if I stop doing any of the things I do, I'll always be an optimist till the day I die.

• 8:22Arthur Brooks?

  What does that mean to be an optimist?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  It's the undying belief that the future is bright.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  I think people confuse positivity and optimism. You know, there is such thing as toxic positivity. I've never heard of toxic optimism. You know, toxic positivity is the denial of reality. Everything's fine, everything's good, nothing to see here, right? Which is, which can be very dangerous in, in, in a work context, in a personal context. Optimism is not naive. Optimism accepts reality. Optimism accepts darkness. And optimism sounds more like, you know, we're in this dark place together. It's a dark tunnel. I don't know how long we're going to be in here, and I don't know what it's going to take to get out, but I know one thing for sure, there's a light at the end of this tunnel. If we work together and take care of each other, we will get through this and we'll come out of this stronger than we went in.

• 9:08Arthur Brooks?

  So it is a prediction in point of fact, but it also has a lot of agency involved in it. Because the whole thing that you said right before, we're going to come out of this together, is if we work together, we take care of each other, et cetera, et cetera, right? In other words, we can still screw it up.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  That's true too. Well, and I think, I think to truly be an optimist, I've never thought about it in these terms, but I think it's hard to be an optimist alone. I, I think a prerequisite for optimism is, is relationship. Because it's one thing for one person to be able to say, don't worry, I'm going to get through this. And that is, grit will do that for you for a while. But exhaustion and time can sometimes take a beating. I think it's hard to be an optimist if you don't have the relationship with others and gratitude for the relationships you have for those others.

• 9:57Arthur Brooks?

  I'm sure you, you are, but are you, do you, do you ever reflect on the words of the anchoress, the 14th century anchoress Julian of Norwich? Or do you know this? You know, her most famous quote, this is, I'm sorry.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  First of all, this is, this is, this is such, this is such an Arthur Brooks thing to say.

• 10:14Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I know.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  You're like, Simon, you know, I was thinking about Schopenhauer the other day, and I, I know that you think about Schopenhauer a lot. And what do you think about Schopenhauer? I don't, I don't know who you're talking about.

• 10:24Arthur Brooks?

  This is, that's the most Catholic thing ever. So I apologize for, you know? But you always attribute the best qualities to the people that you love. This is why I say this.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Very kind of you.

• 10:33Arthur Brooks?

  But she has a very famous quote, and, and Julian of Norwich was an anchoress, meaning that she lived in solitude. And her most famous quote is this, and it could have come from Simon Sinek, "All will be well, and all manner of things shall be well."

• 10:46Speaker 01

  I completely agree with her.

• 10:49Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  You know, the thing, the thing that upsets people, people said, there's two things that I think is very, that I find very interesting. People say to me things like, how can you be an optimist in these times? And my answer is always the same, which is like, well, what good is it being optimist when everything's perfect? That's number one is like, these, these are the times to be an optimist. Like, this is when you need optimism, number one. And how can you be so sure, right? If you just look at what we're in. And I think optimism requires a long-term view and sometimes a very long-term view. My favorite, what keeps me going, what, what, I'm constantly reminded by the, the founders of the women's American suffrage movement. Every single founder of the suffrage movement in America died before the first woman voted.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Of course, they wanted to live to see the first woman vote, of course, of course. But the fact that they, that they, they worked with such optimism, they worked with such surety that it would happen. So long as they build the infrastructure, develop the relationships, so that momentum can continue with or without them. They had a view of optimism, they had a, a, a, that went in their case beyond their lifetime.

• 11:58Arthur Brooks?

  Are you naturally an optimist or did you decide to be an optimist?

• 12:03Speaker 01

  I think both can be true. In my case, um, my dad's a big optimist. And so it was around us as kids. My mother's a little more cynical, um, but I like, I like the combo.

• 12:16Arthur Brooks?

  And she married a guy whose last name is Cynic?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I know, I know, the irony is.

• 12:20Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  I think both can be true. It's like, it's like talent versus skill, you know, it's like one of them you can work at, the other one, you kind of, you have a little bit of an edge. I think some can be, you can, you can have a natural disposition and I think you can work on it because I, I do think at some level optimism is a choice. I do believe that.

• 12:38Arthur Brooks?

  I mean, and that's entirely consistent with all the behavioral science literature and even the study on identical twins, on personnel. Happiness is 50% genetic, insofar as half of the variance in happiness is explained by DNA. And so it has to be so with optimism as well. And you've gotten better at it over the years through the environment and the way that you live and your habits.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  And the choices I've made.

• 12:58Arthur Brooks?

  What I'm hoping that we're going to get to today is the optimism protocols. I mean, I, I realize that this is the, the optimism optimization. How about that?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Optimizing for optimism?

• 13:08Arthur Brooks?

  Oh, nice, nice, nice. Uh, but I want to make one distinction here because there's just a little bit of a linguistic one, which is the difference between optimism and hope. How do you think about those two things contrast to each other? Are you, are you a hopeful person?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  I never use the word hope. It's funny. I mean, I guess I do, I'm sure I do have somebody where to go back and evaluate all the things I've said, I probably said it, but I, I, it's, it's not one of those words that's sort of my go-to word. And it's not that I'm against the word, but to me, the connotation of hope lacks the agency. The connotation of hope is, is more like holding, crossing one's fingers and waiting. I hope I win the lottery. I hope this works out.

• 13:47Arthur Brooks?

  And I hope I feel better tomorrow.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  I hope I feel better tomorrow. It's kind of a waiting for the, for the, for the world to give you the thing that you want. Where to me, optimism, though of course there are external factors, of course, beyond our control. But to me, optimism is the clarity and surety. I think that the, the, the close bedfellow for optimism is vision. That I have clear vision and I'm going to strive towards that no matter what.

• 14:14Arthur Brooks?

  Interesting. So I hope I win the lottery. I hope I feel better tomorrow. I hope the economy turns around. I hope my health starts to improve, which is, you know, waiting for the outside world to change.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Arthur Brooks?

  And then there's a more sort of theological understanding of that. So many religions, including Christians and Jews, see hope as a divine virtue. Insofar as that you're saying, I can do it, which adds the agency to it. So it's kind of depends on how you define hope, doesn't it? Like anything else, I mean, we're looking at this. Interestingly, the verb to hope in Spanish is esperar, which also means to wait.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  That makes sense to me. That's revealing. I mean, I, I think, look, I've obviously used the word hope, you know, when I say like, oh, you know, I hope they're going to be okay. There's a flash flood, you know, I, I hope they're going to be okay. You know, I can make a donation, I guess, but I don't know, you know? Um, and even when Obama ran his campaign and the poster said, hope, what he was asking is the electorate is put your hope in this person. You know, yeah, I think waiting and hoping, I think are very, that's a very.

• 15:17Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  I think Spanish is, is revealing a truth there. And by the way, that's perfectly, I think that's perfectly legitimate sometimes. You know, when somebody says, I hope this works out, and somebody's other responses, just wait. That's perfectly, that's perfectly legitimate. Give it time, have some patience, it will be fine, is perfectly legitimate.

• 15:36Arthur Brooks?

  And I want everybody to be really clear on this, is that whether it's hope or it's optimism, there is a better future. We can achieve it, but we have to participate in that better future. Those are the three parts, the three Simon Sinek ingredients to optimism, correct?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's right. I believe that you have to earn the right to complain. I think it is unacceptable to complain about something political, for example, if you don't vote. When, when I talk about you earn the right to complain, the bar is incredibly low. Like you have to have done the minimal amount to contribute to the thing you're complaining about in order to complain about it. But if you have done nothing to contribute, nothing, I don't believe you have the right to complain, then you can just hope.

• 16:20Arthur Brooks?

  These are the ingredients. And by the way, there's no reason to get wrapped around the axle about this. There is a better future, but we all must participate to make it so.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  And please don't, anyone send me any emails. I don't care about semantic rabbit holes. You know, it doesn't matter what the dictionary says. If somebody interprets the term hope, the way I talk about the word optimism, and they're going to fight me that their definition of hope is, is different to, that's fine. Then, then the word hope is wonderful. The, the, the words are irrelevant, so long as the meaning is consistent. And, and I think too often we fight about words when we should be dealing with meaning.

• 16:59Arthur Brooks?

  So I think that kind of what gets to this distinction here is the famous Stockdale paradox, named for Admiral Stockdale in the Vietnam War. He was an incredible Vietnam War hero. He actually went on to have this post-war career when he came back from the Hanoi Hilton, where he was staying, notorious prisoner of war camp. He actually was the vice presidential candidate under Ross Perot in 1992.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  I actually remember that.

• 17:24Arthur Brooks?

  Extraordinarily, yeah. He was a great American hero. And one of the things that he talked about was the prisoners of war who survived and those who didn't. Those who died, they said, yeah, I, I, guys, it's like, you know, stay happy because we're going to get out of here by Thanksgiving. And Thanksgiving would come and go and they wouldn't be done. He said, oh, don't worry, we're going to be out of here by Easter. And Easter would come and go. And he said, they, they died of a broken heart. But the ones who actually survived were the ones who said, we're going to get out. I don't know when. That sounds like you.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  I, I think, I think that's a hundred percent true. It's also the difference between a finite and infinite mindset. The ones that, that struggled and, and my, my friend Leopoldo Lopez, who was the, uh, prisoner of, uh, political prisoner, um, in Venezuela. Uh, he was a prisoner of Maduro's for, uh, and kept in solitary confinement, confinement for four years and prison for seven. Um, he said the same thing, which is the problem is, is the goal is the deadline. And when you have moving goalposts, it becomes demoralizing to the point of nothing is getting answered. Uh, so it's an infinite versus a finite mindset. And not to make the analogy, you know, I know we're talking about philosophy and not business, but I think the same is true. When companies define their purpose based on a finite deadline or finite goal at the end of the year, and then just, they just keep moving the goal.

• 18:39Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  As their purpose, at some point you will feel like this job is not worth it, which is kind of like a giving up, uh, without, without the existential component.

• 18:46Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah, no. And that, the, in the, in business, that's a really, really good point. And that's a point that you make in The Infinite Game. That was, that, which is a great book also. We're talking a lot about start with why, but, and your personal philosophy, but it, it, it's manifested long, leaders eat last, all these really important books that you've written. I mean, it, it just takes different shape in different ways. I see that infinite game idea with respect to hope and what I talk about is relationships that work and relationships that don't. And one of the things that I find about marriages die of a broken heart. It's not that somebody's abandoned, it's just that the promises are never met because somebody's waiting. And the intention is never actually to do the thing that's being promised. The intention is to, is say, no, there will be a better future.

• 19:31Arthur Brooks?

  I will stop traveling. I will be ready to have children. No, no, no, not now, baby, but I will be.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  I like that and I agree with that. And I want to add a, I want to add a nuance to that, which is, because the way you defined as broken heart and broken promises. If you simply fulfill the promises, then you won't break the hearts. Speaking from a lot of failed relationships, um, uh, I'm an expert in this subject, by the way.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  I think that's a very.

• 19:58Arthur Brooks?

  Field research for a certain number of years.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 20:01Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  I did it for science.

• 20:03Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, that's, it's good, you just give and give.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  I think that's a very high bar because I think sometimes, and I think it's too high a bar and an unfair bar, if I may, if I may be so bold. Because sometimes I think we say things with very good intention and, uh, uh, and this is, you know, optimists run late a lot, by the way.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Because they think the train will be there exactly on time. I think people in relationships make promises, little P promises. You know, big P promises are a different conversation, but little P promises like with very good intention, sometimes ignorant of all the other factors. Like, I promise I'll be there on time. I left early, I didn't know there was gonna be a, like, I left at the right time. I didn't know there was gonna be an extra bad accident that day. The way I think of broken promises, or the way I think of a broken heart, is more internal, it's our expectation of another, rather than their failing to maintain their promises. It's what I hear was promised versus what I expected. But so, so one of the best lines I've ever heard, I read in a relationship book,

• 21:07Speaker 01

  that said, "We all live with the fantasy that our partners can read our minds." "Why didn't you do that? I didn't know I had to do it." "You should know that you have to do that." "Why should I do it?" "Because you and I are in a relationship and you know me, you should know that I would want that." That's where the broken heart comes, as opposed to saying, "You know it would make me really happy if you could do this." And the other person, instead of just saying, "Yes," because then you set up a broken promise, says, "I want to, can you help me?" And I have found that living with the fantasy of recognizing that, that we all live with the fantasy that our partners, our colleagues, our friends can read our minds, that would, to me, changed everything.

• 21:43Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, that's right, but that, I guess that would be a toxic optimism about your relationship, right? Is this sort of cockeyed optimism that the person who loves you so much can also read your mind?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't call that optimism, I'd call that hope.

• 21:58Arthur Brooks?

  You'd actually call that delusion.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  I'd call that delusion, but we all do it, we all do it, we all do it.

• 22:03Arthur Brooks?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, I actually, you know, in the work that I do, and the work that my wife and I are doing on relationships, we find, for example, a significantly greater than half of divorces are initiated by wives who are just deeply, deeply disappointed. They're disappointed in their relationships, they're disappointed in the fact that, you know, the, what they wanted in their lives has become unachievable. And the end of optimism is often the death of love.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  I mean, look, I think one of the greatest damaging things that ever happened to relationships is the movie Jerry Maguire. I don't know if you remember the movie of Jerry Maguire.

• 22:37Arthur Brooks?

  Oh, yeah, that's a sports agent, Tom Cruise.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Sports agent, Tom Cruise, right? And Renee Zellweger says, "I didn't fall in love with who you are, I fell in love with who the man you can be." Please don't do that, please fall in love with who somebody is, not who you, who you think they can be, because that is a fantasy version of the person that they may or may not live up to. But there was, there's a video that's going around on the internets that I really love, that when you treat someone like the person you think that they can be, they are more likely to become that person because they have the support. And that goes back to what I was saying before, which is it's relationship and support structure, and our ability to take ourselves on with all that positive affirmation and reinforcement. Like, "Look what you did there, that's, I knew that you could do that," versus, "How could you get that wrong again?"

• 23:23Speaker 01

  But when we treat people as if they are already the person, they are more likely to become that person. I thought that was wonderful.

• 23:29Arthur Brooks?

  It really is, and by the way, that's the secret to parenting. The secret to parenting is treating your child the way you want your child to be. And sometimes you become disappointed, but more often than not, they live up to the expectation. That was a point actually made by Dale Carnegie in How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936. He talked about, "Give people a good reputation to live up to." And I remember that, you know, with our sons and daughter, we would say, "You're actually a very hard worker." In marriages, it's slightly a different thing. There's the old expression that wives think they can change their husbands and they can't, and husbands think their wives won't change and they do. And so, our expectation is about the future.

• 24:14Arthur Brooks?

  I mean, I don't know if it's true, but the whole point is this, you've got to have rational expectations, and they should be positive ones, and you should be an agent in making them come true.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  I think sometimes we also have irrational expectations. And so, you know, the concept of narrative, and it's, you can put, you can apply it to relationships, but you see it very starkly in businesses. You know, the leadership team gets together and they're talking about the issues, and then the name of somebody on the team comes up, and somebody goes, "Ugh, he's so lazy." And now, the entire leadership team thinks of that person as lazy, because that, that term has been used to associate with them. Then they come up with a stupid moniker, it's like, "Oh, it's lazy Dave again, right? Lazy Dave didn't get the work done, lazy Dave missed another deadline, why are we surprised, right? And now, we treat Dave as lazy, and we will seek all the evidence that Dave is lazy, we will come down hard on Dave because he's lazy, and eventually Dave will quit or get fired because he's lazy."

• 25:07Speaker 01

  And so, I've seen this happen a million times, we're all guilty of it, myself included. And when I recognized that, that we had narratives of people in our company, that, you know, I don't even work with them, I don't even know if they are or not these things. I just believe the person who's their, who's their manager, who's their leader, right? And so, when I realized it was happening in our company, I came up with a system to interrupt. And so, if anybody said anything, and by the way, the same as creating heroes out of people. "Oh, they can't do anything wrong," right?

• 25:34Arthur Brooks?

  Right, right, right.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  The hero complex is also bad, bad, bad. So, was anybody would create an imagined narrative about someone, I would expect anyone in the room to say, "Hold on a second, that may be true, or, we haven't given them good direction, they're in the wrong position, they had a bad night's sleep, they got stuff going on in their private life, or they're lazy." Any one of those could be true. And benefit of doubt, I think, grace, grace, giving people grace, that sometimes we, we are the ones that are setting the expectation in our imaginations, and someone is not meeting the expectations that we set in our imaginations that have never communicated to anybody and never given anybody any feedback. I think we do this at work, and I think we do this in our relationships.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  And, and the idea of communicating the good, bad, and the ugly, and teaching people how to listen and how to communicate is the solution to all of this stuff, because then it's all out on the table.

• 26:29Arthur Brooks?

  As you know from listening to this show, I've never been a supernaturally happy person. That's exactly why I've spent much of my life and my career trying to understand human happiness. Not just academically, but in a way that I could use very practically, and you can too. I don't do research, I do me-search, well, and you-search. My time in academia has reinforced the lesson I continue to rely on today. Happiness, well, and energy are best managed through deliberate habits and discipline. I take my personal habits seriously, I need to. I have a morning routine, I've talked about it on this show. It involves prayer, and exercise, and healthy eating, and, and a lot of coffee, well, taken at the right time.

• 27:14Arthur Brooks?

  But in my creative work, I've long looked for a gold star supplement to that routine that helps me take charge of my day. I came across Magic Mind. Now, I was skeptical at first, honestly, because there's a lot of noise in the supplement space, and, and most of it really doesn't hold up to the science or human experience. But Magic Mind has ingredients that I like, adaptogens, nootropics, such as lion's mane, ashwagandha, cognazine, L-theanine. These are clinically backed compounds with real research behind them. Magic Mind is a two-ounce shot that you take in the morning. You don't get jitters, there's no crash, it's just your brain working the way it's supposed to. Calm, sustained, and focused.

• 27:59Arthur Brooks?

  If the same cup of coffee every morning has started to feel more like a crutch than a ritual, or if you're just tired of it, it might be worth trying something that actually works with your neurobiology, rather than against it. Right now, you can go to www.magicmind.com, that's all one word, and get 50% off your first order, plus 100-day money-back guarantee. So, you really have nothing to lose by trying it. You can also find Magic Mind in stores near you, using the store locator at magicmind.com. Do you think optimism is falling generally today?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:35Arthur Brooks?

  Why do you think that?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Because pessimism sells advertising, pessimism sells clicks. I mean, look, look at AI. AI, the narrative that AI is gonna take everybody's job. AI is less popular in our nation right now than the war in Iran. And they did it to themselves, because the pessimistic view of, and the scary view of AI was very good for fundraising, and that's why they did it, because it helped raise money. And then, you had CEOs like Jack Dorsey announcing layoffs of 6,000 people because AI can do the work, which is an absolute nonsense. AI technology is absolutely not good enough to just suddenly lay off 6,000 people, we're just not there yet. But he overhired, he was bloated, and if he tells the market,

• 29:21Speaker 01

  "Oh, yeah, I was super bloated and overhired and I gotta lay off all these people," his stock price will go down. And if he says, "We're replacing these people with AI," it looks like he's on the cutting edge. And so, this idea of narrative and fear, and we know that what bleeds leads, we know that because you sell advertising on the news, we, you know, if it was non-commercial, we wouldn't be in this predicament. But by scary messages and pessimistic messages, and our lizard brain, that, you know, is much more attracted to those things because, because the paranoia keeps us alive. So, yes, in general, I think, not, not just for politics, but for short-termism, the drive for stock price, the drive for money, the drive to get re-elected,

• 30:02Speaker 01

  and the sacrifice of cause and the sacrifice of service, the simple answer is yes, I think there's less optimism.

• 30:08Arthur Brooks?

  And then negativity that's in the social media culture, of course, is adding fuel to all of this, right? Maybe it's the biggest engine of all of this, is how social media actually replicates negative much, much faster than positive, is that fair?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Negativity sells better, victimization sells better. The reason you aren't doing well in your life, the reason you hate yourself, is because of this person, or this group of people, or this gender, or this, whatever it is, right? The negativity helps us feel less responsible for the positions we're in in our lives, if it's somebody else's fault.

• 30:37Arthur Brooks?

  Fair to say that if there were some way to make optimism great again, to coin a phrase, that that would actually make the world a lot better?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  The answer is yes. The way I would rephrase it is not optimism, but vision. And I did equate those two earlier in our conversation. What I want more of in our nation... Is is leaders with vision, leaders who can articulate vision, not just a short term goal, not just a solution, but rather something, the light at the end of the tunnel, that if we all work together and do the right thing, expecting that we'll make mistakes, expecting that we'll disagree, that we will reach there. And whether it's all men are created equal, or shining city on a hill, or ask not what your country can do, ask what you can do for your country. All of these are are reclassifications, re- tellings of the same vision, the original

• 31:30Speaker 01

  vision from the Declaration of Independence. And and it's an ideal. We'll never get there, but we'll die trying. And that's kind of the point.

• 31:36Arthur Brooks?

  You know, Daniel Goldman's work, of course, who's fantastic on leadership. And he has a great 2000, year 2000 article called Leadership That Gets Results. Looks at these six big leadership models. And and some of them look good, but are terrible, like being a pace setting leader who's hopelessly workaholic. That's the worst kind of CEO, or a coercive leader who barks orders down the hall and intimidates everybody. Some of it's pretty obvious, but

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:02Arthur Brooks?

  But the by far the most successful leaders in business were those who were authoritative, not authoritarian, authoritative. And by that, he meant that would be kind of Jim Collins level, where they had a super clear mission and vision. Mission mean here's what we do. Vision means here's where we want to go. And what they did was that they coached everybody to become, had to do their part. They saw the part that everybody plays. These leaders would say, do you see a better future? Let me describe it. It's gonna be great. And by the way, you have a part in it that nobody else can play.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  It's gonna be great is insufficient. It's gonna be great is insufficient, because it's gonna be great is vague. And I don't know what I'm aiming towards. True vision is an articulation of a future state that is that does not yet exist, stated in terms so clearly, that I can, I too can imagine it myself. And by imagine, I mean, it literally lives in my head, in my imagination. But my picture in my head is the is the same picture as your head, in in your head. And so that's what vision is. And so it's gonna be great. This amorphous nonsense, that actually doesn't help. Because I can't strive for great, because I don't know what I'm going towards. I think that's true. And the way I would, I don't like the word authoritative, though I agree with it. Whereas I think it's too easily

• 33:18Speaker 01

  misinterpreted. But another way of rephrasing authoritative is stubbornly optimistic. I think you are stubbornly optimistic that no matter what's happening, like, guys, just come on. Can't you see what we're doing here? Like, we're getting closer. Yeah, I know we got kicked in the stomach this month, but look, we're getting closer. We got momentum. Like, that stubborn optimism is something we would all want to be a part of.

• 33:41Arthur Brooks?

  Well, at what point does stubborn optimism actually become delusion? You and I work with business leaders all the time. And you know, you talk to people who have a vision of, in their heads, they have a bad business model, for example, right? How do you actually coach people on that?

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Delusion, I think, is very usually, if you're stubbornly optimistic, you believe so much in achieving that goal for the greater good, that you were willing to say, you know what, I'm not qualified to lead this company. You were willing to say, I'm the one getting in the way. I think if you're delusional, it's about you. I think delusion is you think you have a savior complex, that only you, only you. And I think that's false. I think the truly optimistic leaders recognize that they're a piece of a puzzle, but they're not the whole puzzle. Every great leader I've ever met, never imagined they would achieve what they achieved, in terms of fame, or money, or even or even rank. But no matter

• 34:41Speaker 01

  what, they were stubbornly optimistic about the vision that they wanted to contribute to, regardless of where in the pecking order they were contributing.

• 34:48Arthur Brooks?

  What are the personal practices that people listening to us should be considering to become more of an optimist?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Allowing one's brain, allowing one mind to wander. We underappreciate boredom. We think any blank space needs to be filled. We bring our phones everywhere. I think they should ban bringing phones into bathrooms in restaurants, because I now waiting outside a bathroom for 20 minutes, because somebody has to go on Instagram for, you know, while I'm waiting outside. Like, like, we fill every blank space. And allowing our minds to wander is absolutely essential, because that's where imagination, but also it's very calming. And I think it's good for the body. I think it's relaxing as a, and and you don't have any great ideas unless you allow, unless you allow your mind to wander. All the great ideas happen when you're in the shower, going for a run, or in the car. That's because

• 35:39Speaker 01

  you're, because you're, you don't have your phone with you, and you're disconnected.

• 35:42Arthur Brooks?

  You need more white space. What's what? What then?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  We put a little too much pressure on people to be visionary. Not everybody is visionary, right? Like, some people have better imaginations than others. Like, some people can draw better than others, right? Like, it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just like, we have different, we have different attributes and characteristics. And not everybody has to be a visionary and have a vision like Steve Jobs or Martin Luther King, right? If you do have imagination, go ahead and, you know, come up with something and see it. If you don't, find someone who does, whose whose vision of the world you really, really like, and latch on to it. And that's what happens with great leaders. They put a vision into words that help me put what I want into words. Right? I've been trying

• 36:26Speaker 01

  to say that, is what you will hear people say, or, oh, my God, yes, that. So you don't have to have your own vision, but you do have to find a vision. And if somebody else has articulated it, follow their cause or steal their vision. And can, because great visionaries don't mind who's contributing from one angle, steal it, steal it, add it to your company. Who cares?

• 36:47Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, the make or buy decision is irrelevant when it actually comes to a better vision for your own life. Where do they go? I mean,

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I think you have to take the world in, right? You have to be an informed person. Vision can come from absolutely anywhere. A vision can come from friends. Vision can come from political leaders. It can come from business leaders. Vision can come from the principal of a school, who's got a slightly different way of raising the kids. And some of those visionaries are stubbornly visionary, stubbornly optimistic without the words. That's a little frustrating sometimes, because sometimes you have to spend a lot of time with them to get it. I'll tell you a great story of this, if I can. So I had the opportunity to do some work with the Disney Imagineers. They're the people who invent all the rides, all

• 37:35Speaker 01

  the shows, all the parades. And we talk about imagination, right? They invent and build all of it. I went there back in the day, and I was talking to them about the concept of why, what it is, how it works, and all of this stuff. And I thought, you know what, I'll do a demo. So I picked a random guy in the audience. He had gray hair. I picked a gray hair guy, because I figured he's got some, he's got some reps. He's not, because I can't do it with somebody who's been here for three weeks. So I just, you know, played the odds. And I said, okay, what about you? Right? And what I didn't know, and I found this out after the session, is that the company had a nickname for him, that I'm not sure he knew that this was his nickname. They called him Ice Chips, because he was a cold

• 38:19Speaker 01

  bastard. And people were not fond of working for him. He was difficult to work for. He had very high standards, and he wasn't the favorite guy to work for. So I've randomly picked this guy. And I start doing this little workshop-y kind of thing, where I'm asking him all these questions to get to what his why is, and why all of this hard work is worth it. And he tells this story. He tells this one, sir, I'll do the compressed version. He told it over the course of like, five or six minutes. It was an amazing story. He tells the story of a brand new ride that had just opened at Disneyland. And he went on the first day to see the opening of the ride. On the ride, he noticed there was a

• 38:58Speaker 01

  guy in a wheelchair with his son, waiting to get on the ride. And he said, everywhere in the world, what people see is a guy in a wheelchair with his son. Only at Disneyland, do we only see a father and his son. We're all crying. And in an instant, we understood why his standards were so high. Because to him, he had to make these things work so perfectly, that at no point did this guy feel like he was in a wheelchair. He just felt like he was at Disneyland with his son. Instantly, everybody got it, and everybody wanted to work for him. And the people who did work for him had this instant sense of pride, at the level that they were working at, because the stakes were that high. But

• 39:43Speaker 01

  it was his inability to explain his vision to to others, that made him difficult to work for. The minute we had a story to capture the vision, because sometimes you don't need the whole vision, you just need a story that captures it, instantly, we all wanted to work for him.

• 39:58Arthur Brooks?

  So optimism is the vision of the better future, and how to get there.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  By the way, and that's a hack, which is when you are thinking about what your vision is, or the world that you imagine, or why you do what you do. You don't, no, you can go through, I've got, I put many things out on the marketplace to help people find it, of course. But the hack is find a story that explains

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Why all the sacrifice, all the heartache, all the, the, the, the two steps back are worth it? You could just go do something else. You could make more money, work fewer hours, you could do something else. What is so important in the world that, that, that all that suffering is worth it?

• 40:44Arthur Brooks?

  So that you need a plan. I mean, this is one of the things you talk about to start with why, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it, we're just kinda yakking at this point. Oh, a better future would be this, a better future would be that. No, how are you gonna get there?

• 40:55Speaker 01

  That's a hippie commune. Like, you know, we're all talking around, you know, that's just, that's like free love with no, with no, with nothing. And, and that does, that, that also has a shelf life. It feels good in the short term, just like being finite minded and, and, and no vision, only goals. Both of those work very well in the short term for different reasons. But at some point, the constant moving of the goalpost and the goal setting, goal setting starts to feel hollow and not worth it. And the constant vision without action starts to feel like no progress and demoralizing. So that's why great teams are made up of people who are visionary and people who are really good at getting stuff done.

• 41:34Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, getting stuff done, et cetera. And, and by the way, there, that's often the case, the division of labor with inside married couples.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:41Arthur Brooks?

  Where you've got kind of the visionary for the better future and then you've got the work, you've got the CEO and the COO.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:46Arthur Brooks?

  Two dreamers, sometimes you have trouble.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  One of the most wonderful people that I have in my life, you know, is somebody I used to date for many years. And we're both dreamers and we both had our head in the clouds and we get along so well. It, it was hard in a relationship, but my God, the fun, the camaraderie, like, we, we just got along great. But the question is, was that the right, was that the right combo for a relationship that could last beyond the time that it did?

• 42:12Arthur Brooks?

  Which I guess was a question that answered itself in due course.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  And a frustrating realization for both of us, both in and after the relationship. Cause we still get a lot of rain.

• 42:21Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, that's great. I mean, as it can be a great friend, it's just not necessarily the permanent pair bond.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  And the reason is simple is because for the things that I'm incapable of, I need help.

• 42:31Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  And I know I'm a really good helper for the things that are somebody else's blind spots or shortcomings and, and, and that works.

• 42:38Arthur Brooks?

  So, so this episode is actually part of the Be Hope podcast takeover that's, that's happening at the same time as the UN General Assembly.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  I just had a realization and you said this is because this is going with the UN General, General Assembly and that their, that their theme is hope. So I can't help but like, think about politics, right? Which is, which is, okay, world leaders, why don't you articulate vision in a way and set up your, the way you lead your nations with such optimism and such stubborn drive for the brighter future for the, for everyone, that it gives us reason to be hopeful. Cause I think we can be hopeful of our own nations and of our, of our own world. If we hear that our leaders have optimism and vision and we're willing to work together to achieve that vision, then that gives me hope.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  That gives me more than optimism, that gives me hope. That's exactly what leaders are not doing. There's a great irony in all of this, that it, that after this whole conversation, we've become a perfect circle that our definitions are holding true, which is if the world leaders have agency and take it upon themselves and accountability and togetherness, then they will become the external factor that gives us hope. But they themselves can't be hopeful. They have to lead in a way that makes us hopeful.

• 43:59Arthur Brooks?

  And, and one important clarification, I think, which is that to state a reason to be hopeful does not include to tell people that if you elect me, then the evil people will come and kill you. That's not an optimistic frame. It has to be positive fundamentally as opposed to the absence of the negative, right?

• 44:20Speaker 01

  It's, I mean, it's, it's what we talked about before, which is it's using fear to drive behavior. You know, what I've learned is that great visionaries, they view obstacles not as the enemy, but they view obstacles as the thing to go over or around in order to achieve their vision. Because sometimes you, you both talk about enemies, you both talk about obstacles. You know, Ronald Reagan talked about the Soviet Union, right? The difference was Ronald Reagan wasn't trying to just simply destroy the Soviet Union. It wasn't just some enemy that what he wanted to take down. It's that Ronald Reagan had a vision of the world, of how it could exist, and the Soviet Union was standing in the way.

• 44:53Arthur Brooks?

  It was, that was a barrier to the fact that there were a lot of people that were not free.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  And exactly, and once the Soviet Union dissolves, the vision continues. The vision continues. The vision doesn't conclude when the enemy is, is, drops out of the game. So, so I think that's, that's a huge difference I've seen because rallying the troops against is, is useful and much easier, but it has to be rallying the troops for, except this thing's in our way.

• 45:19Arthur Brooks?

  So what is the policy version or the political version of step one in being a personal optimist, which was stopping hypnotized by stupid nonsense?

• 45:27Speaker 01

  I mean, we're talking in idealized terms because the reality is if being optimistic got them elected, they'd be optimistic. If working together got them elected, they'd work together. So let's be very clear that politicians are motivated by the incentive structure, not by anything else.

• 45:47Arthur Brooks?

  Oh yeah, no, no. So stipulate to the fact getting elected is not prima facie evidence of virtue.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  No, no, no. And, and they, and they'll do whatever, they'll do and say whatever works. And we are living in a world now where we are not demanding our politicians work together. And so they won't. I think change always starts at home. I think the more that we at home learn to listen, learn to listen with, to whom those we disagree, we learn to find common ground with whom those we disagree. When we learn these things, we will demand them of our leaders and of our politicians, and then they will have no choice because that's what gets them elected. I think our politicians are a reflection of us.

• 46:26Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Oh boy, here we go. It's, it's our fault. Well, actually, maybe so.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Kinda, a little bit.

• 46:33Arthur Brooks?

  Kinda.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Not, not completely.

• 46:35Arthur Brooks?

  No, I know.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  It's, it's like, you know, it's, it's never, it's never always someone's fault. Our parents taught us when we, when it takes two to tango or the truth is in the middle or whatever, whatever metaphor you want to use, right? Yeah, we are a bit to blame. And until we can take accountability for the way we behave, um, and the incentives and the demands we make, then it's not gonna change. So, and by the way, it's much easier to change us than it is to change them.

• 47:01Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, certainly at the individual level. Um, you, you grew up when Ed Koch was the mayor, right?

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:07Arthur Brooks?

  And do you remember when Ed Koch finally, after a decade, after a decade, more than a decade, lost? Do you remember that?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:14Arthur Brooks?

  Finally lost?

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:16Arthur Brooks?

  And do you remember he gave, giving a concession speech and he memorably made your point and he said, "The people have spoken and now they're gonna have to pay."

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Both, both true and bitter all at the same time.

• 47:29Arthur Brooks?

  One aspect of your genius, if you'll permit me, Simon, your ability to teach policy leaders how to tell stories.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:38Arthur Brooks?

  Actually, I've seen you do it. You go from the specific to the general in a very inductive and very beautiful way. And I've seen politicians with greater or lesser degrees of success use your stories, as a matter of fact. But that's step three. That was step three for the individual is paint the picture.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Paint the picture, like, and again, I, it's a, it's a, it's a hack, right? Um, tell me a story that captures why all of the sacrifice is worth it. Like Ice Chip's story, like, you know, cause that's how we got there. Remember that was a, that was a 20, 15 minute process of getting into that story where, you know, you could work somewhere else, you could be happier, you could work less. Tell me a story that captures why all this hardship is worth it. Let me tell the story of this, this ride we opened, right? And he's, he's telling me in his mind, the stakes. He's not able to see that that's what it is until this moment. It might be an amorphous thing in his head, but the fact that he spent a career not explaining

• 48:34Speaker 01

  this to people, even though he's such a good and noble guy, the only thing we could see was the high standards.

• 48:40Arthur Brooks?

  Well, what was holding him back is you didn't have a high morale team. And we all know that you can be unbelievably successful, and if you don't have a high morale team, execution is gonna suffer because you're gonna be churning through people and burning them out. And yeah, this is a problem for sure. And then of course, best but not least, and the policy is tangible, how do we actually get there specifically? Not just pie in the sky, now you elect me.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  What's the best strategy? And you recognize, oh, there are people better than me at some of this stuff, you know, I should get them on board, which is why you wanna be, this is why you wanna be visionary and inspiring, because people will cut their perfectly good jobs to come and help you.

• 49:14Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, but a visionary, an inspiring visionary person who also is effective, critically important. I mean, you see all these, I know a lot of CEOs who promised the moon and the stars and people wanna run through the wall for them and they reason, they realize there's nothing on the other side of the wall, that we actually can't get there. I mean, and, and, and in politics, of course, the whole idea, if you elect me, then our country's gonna be okay.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we, we're, we're tangible animals, right? Dopamine is, we, we've demonized dopamine for the right reasons, but dopamine is a very important chemical in our bodies that makes sure, you know, we go find food, we find shelter, we accomplish things. We're very visually driven animals. Um, this is why writing down your goals and all of this stuff work, because we're visually driven. So vision is great, but at some point I'm gonna need proof to keep me motivated. Vision will inspire, but the, but the progress and the proof will motivate.

• 50:04Arthur Brooks?

  Before we finish, can I summarize what I think are the four big points of this conversation? I want everybody to take away and, and see if you agree.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 50:13Arthur Brooks?

  Number one.

• 50:15Arthur Brooks?

  People need to ask themselves not what I am, but who I am. Which by the way, is an enormous departure for most people. Who am I? It's actually a frightening question for a lot of people or an unasked question. But the who question is at the heart of your own why, not the what.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  I know it's sure, but if you want the, what the who really is, because it's one of the biggest criticisms I'm ever, I always get is like, Simon, in your golden circle of why, how, what? You forgot the who. No, I did not. Who we are is the sum total of all three of those things in balance. That I know why I do what I do. I'm disciplined in how I do it. And what I do, the results that I produce, the progress that I make is tangible proof of why I started in the first place. And when you have all those three things in balance, you will know who I am and so will I.

• 51:02Arthur Brooks?

  That's what I meant.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Well, then yes, then, then a resounding yes.

• 51:07Arthur Brooks?

  That was brilliant of you, don't you think? That number two is whether you call it optimism or hope, what we're talking about is number one, the, the assertion that there is a better future. The second, that it is achievable, that we all must participate in that achievable, better future. That's really what we're talking about here, right?

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Check.

• 51:29Arthur Brooks?

  Three, this is a show about happiness. You will be a happier person if you're an optimist. Take our word for it.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Just, yeah, trust me on that one.

• 51:37Arthur Brooks?

  Trust me on this one. But to be an optimist personally, really there's four things. There's a four step algorithm here. So this is the optimization of optimism, as it were. We're in an optimization culture. One is, is stopping hypnotized by the nonsense that's around us. The world wants to keep you hypnotized. The world doesn't want you to be awake. You know, the awareness that actually comes from being fully alive is a problem for a lot of the world. Because you know, we are putty in the hands of a lot of forces out there if we're not. And that might mean putting down your phone and it might be stop listening to negative voices. And if there's something that's probably hypnotizing you, identify it, turn it off so that you can be fully awake.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Can I tweak it?

• 52:20Arthur Brooks?

  Of course.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Let's tell people what we want them to do, not what we not, don't want them to do. So instead of people telling people to stop listening to noise or stop listening to the hypnotism and stop listening to the negative, let's tell people to seek out and listen more to, to positive voices, to things that inspire us, to things that make us feel hopeful.

• 52:39Arthur Brooks?

  And to do that, you have to, have to be unencumbered by the stuff that was actually belonging there.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  If you're going to do that, you're necessarily going to put the other stuff away.

• 52:46Arthur Brooks?

  Second is build or buy, find or create a vision of a better future. Your better future and other people's better future.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  In terms so clear, other people can see it too. Yes, amen.

• 52:58Arthur Brooks?

  And how do we make it so clear? Step three, you need a story, not the data, not the math, not the model. You need the story. And by the way, there's all kinds of stuff we've talked about on the show again and again and again, about how the imprinting that actually comes from a story. But we are story based animals. The story that explains the why of this vision, that explains it so that you understand it and that other people understand it. And part four, which is kind of like the fourth noble truth of Buddhism is the eightfold path. No, it's the plan to actually get there.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Life is a pilgrimage and, and recognize that the plan is written in pencil.

• 53:35Arthur Brooks?

  Exactly. Which by the way, that, that is a, that's not a side note. That's intention without attachment, which is a very fundamental Buddhist concept right there that we've covered. It'd probably add nausea at this point. Okay, now let's finish up on what all of, all the people, because I'm sure that the entire UN general assembly is listening to this podcast.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  No, no, this is, this is the second time they're listening to her.

• 53:57Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, exactly right. To be a more hopeful policy leader in a time of difficulty in the world, which suffice it to say is true. And, and by the way, that's always true. Stop hypnotizing people. That's number one, right?

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Be a force of inspiration.

• 54:13Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. And, and that force of inspiration is step two, state a reason to be hopeful and that's a positive vision. Look, either you believe it or you don't. Either you believe it or you don't. And if you don't believe that there's a better future, get out.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yep. I, I, I used to, I used to say this to companies. I like, I'd stand in front of companies and you know, there'd be a newly declared vision. And I would say, look, um, we're not asking for everybody to like sacrifice and believe desperately in this vision, right? That is unrealistic, given the company of this size, right? Unrealistic. But what we are saying is that if you just want to come to work, clock your card, do a good job and go home at the end of the day. And that's all you really care about is like, just let me do my job and I'll do a good job. We're actually totally fine with that. What you're not allowed to do is sabotage. If you don't believe in the vision, you just want to like make it, you just want to like live my life, leave me alone. I'm good with that. Not everybody has to buy in or believe, but you're not allowed to do is sabotage.

• 55:11Arthur Brooks?

  Right. So two is state a reason for a hopeful future, a positive vision, not a negative one. Three, okay, now go tell a good story of that better future.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  That's, that's a hundred percent true.

• 55:26Arthur Brooks?

  And number four is set out tangible policies, write the map that actually will actually get us there, that people are going to believe. So that they know what signing up for and that you know what you're signing up for as well.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Nothing good ever got accomplished without actually doing things.

• 55:42Arthur Brooks?

  Simon, this has been helpful as always. I've learned a lot and I hope our listeners have as well. And I know the UN general assembly is going to be rocking or rolling because of talking to you today.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Maybe they'll invite us to speak to them together and we can have a reunion.

• 55:57Arthur Brooks?

  Wouldn't that be great?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  That'd be so fun. This was great. I love talking to you. I always leave, um, smarter. You helped me see things I didn't see before and just, just generally, I think you're, I think you're pretty awesome.

• 56:08Arthur Brooks?

  I admire you a lot.