Questlove and Christian McBride

This special session features not one but two incredible and incomparable musicians - Questlove and Christian McBride.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Questlove and Christian McBride. Twofer.

• 1:55Speaker 03

  Hey, good people, what's up? How you doing? It's Questlove, and you're about to listen to an episode of my good friend Norah Jones on our podcast called Norah Jones is Playing Along. This particular episode is with myself.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  And one of my closest buddies in high school, not named Tariq Trotter, named Christian McBride, who I basically call God, God of Base. We're gonna go back and reminisce about all the times we've been sent to the principal's office for playing James Brown and other details like that in our high school days, messing around before we became professionals. So we do covers of D'Angelo, Pop Staples, of the Staples Singers, Chris Christopherson, and a lot more. I hope you enjoy it. This is Norah Jones, playing along with me and Christian McBride, all right?

• 2:58Speaker 00

  We actually recorded this episode in 2023, but we really wanted to replay it. It's a rerun.

• 3:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  But a really good one.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  Yes, and we wanted to show it some extra love. Both Christian and Questlove have been keeping very busy with other projects they've worked on since we put our episode out, so we wanted to mention some of them. In 2025, Christian McBride released "Without Further Adieu, Volume One." He also dropped the single "Old Folks" with Samara Joy, and he announced his new ensemble called Ursa Major. And Questlove has also been equally busy. He directed "Sly Lives," which premiered at Sundance in 2025. He co-directed the 50 Years of SNL Music special that aired in January of 2025. He's also directing the big Earth, Wind & Fire documentary coming out in 2026.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  He co-wrote the "Rhythm of Time" series with S.A. Cosby, which is a middle-grade sci-fi book series. The first book came out in 2023, but two more are coming out in 2026. He's also involved in a posthumous D'Angelo album that was recently announced.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  We also covered a D'Angelo song in this episode called "Betray My Heart," which was from the Black Messiah album that came out in 2014. And Questlove was a collaborator on that album, so that's kind of why we covered this song. Plus, it's just an amazing song. So I hope you enjoy hearing this episode if you've never heard it. And if you have, I think you're gonna like it again.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  My man don't love me. Treats me oh so mean.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  I said, "My man, he don't love me. He treats me oh so mean."

• 5:11Speaker 00

  He's the lowest man that I have ever seen.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  He wears high-train pants and stripes are really yellow.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  He wears hydrated pants and stripes are really yellow.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  When he starts into loving me, he's so fine and mellow.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Love will make you drink and gamble and make you stay out all night long. Watch out there now.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Love will make you drink and gamble and make you stay out all night long.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  That would make you do all the things That you know

• 8:36Speaker 00

  Well, if you treat me right, baby I'll stay home every day

• 8:53Speaker 00

  If you treat me right, baby

• 8:57Speaker 00

  I'll stay home every day

• 9:10Speaker 00

  But if you're so mean to me, baby, you know you're gonna drive me away.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Love is just like a faucet.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Come on now.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  It turns off and it turns on.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  Oh, love is just like a faucet.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  It turns off and it turns on.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  Sometimes when you think it's on, baby, it's turned off and gone.

• 10:20Speaker 05

  Go on with your bad self.

• 10:25Speaker 05

  No joke, bringing the grits and gravy.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, that's so fun.

• 10:28Speaker 05

  It's too early for that kind of soul.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  It's before noon.

• 10:31Speaker 05

  That's what I'm saying.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  Well, if you wake up at seven.

• 10:33Speaker 05

  You need to get your cholesterol checked.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  If you wake up at seven usually, then it's more like three in the afternoon, right?

• 10:39Speaker 05

  Well, I suppose.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks for doing that with me. That was fun.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  You kidding?

• 10:45Speaker 00

  I love that Billie Holiday song. That's...

• 10:46Speaker 05

  What a thrill.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Is that... Did Bill... Is that old Billie Holiday song? Or did she... Did she get it from somewhere else? That's hers, right?

• 10:53Speaker 05

  That's hers.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  That's hers.

• 10:54Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  God, I love Billie Holiday. Man, I haven't sung that song in a really long time.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  You could have fooled me.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  That's from the old days, you know? The old days of playing and singing in restaurants and just playing.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  Well, see, that...

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Old jazz tunes.

• 11:10Speaker 05

  Those gigs, you know, back in the day when you were doing the, you know, hotel lobby or restaurant gig, whatever it is, you know, I always tell musicians... That's your shared time. That's how you build, that's how you build your skills.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  It's semi-paid practice.

• 11:27Speaker 05

  Totally what it is, totally what it is. I mean, like, I used to play, I, I can't remember the name of it, but Benny Green and I used to have this kind of semi-regular gig at some Chinese food restaurant over on the east side. And we would just share tunes, you know? Nobody was really listening, kind of, sort of, you know, so I, I, we, we just call songs and I'll be learning the changes right there on the spot.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  That's the best.

• 11:56Speaker 05

  That's how you learn.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I had a gig like that in Dallas. I wish it was Chinese food. That sounds really good, actually, right now.

• 12:04Speaker 05

  If I remember correctly, just like most jazz venues, we couldn't pick off the regular menu.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 05

  They had a musician's menu.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  I, I remember that. I had a gig in Midtown, right around the corner here at that place, Sophia's. Did you ever work there?

• 12:19Speaker 05

  I never worked there.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  But a lot of people did.

• 12:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Actually, I was surprised he hired me because there were a lot of really great piano players that played there. But I think he liked my singing.

• 12:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  And that guy was really nice, actually. I really liked him. But they did not let us order very nicely.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  Right, right, right.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  You had to go back to the kitchen and you could only have like a few things. And you had a set meal time.

• 12:43Speaker 05

  Right.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 05

  Exactly. That's right.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  And it was like a four and a half hour gig.

• 12:46Speaker 05

  Oh, long gig, long gig. I remember when, when, well, when I first moved to town, most clubs were three sets a night. The Vanguard was nine, eleven, and one.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Oh, it was three sets back then?

• 13:03Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, six nights a week. Bradley's was ten, twelve, and two. That was hard because you had an hour break in between each show. So all your momentum would be gone.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. And if you're having a drink, it's, or eating, it just makes you tired.

• 13:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. But I'll tell you what, so much, see, this is why when people began to know who you were, you were already, all your skills were totally strong already. I'm serious. You, you weren't starting from scratch. You'd been out there, working, hustling.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  I kind of feel like I, I could use a weekly gig again, you know, like a weekly.

• 13:40Speaker 05

  Not a bad idea.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Bar gig where the stakes are low and the fun is high, you know?

• 13:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  It's just working it out.

• 13:47Speaker 05

  I'm sure you could find something.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  I love doing that.

• 13:51Speaker 05

  You know.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  That's what's great about living in a city.

• 13:53Speaker 05

  Right, right, right. You can hide in a crowd.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  Man, tell me about your bass.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  This is Minnie.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Yeah?

• 14:04Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  This is the smaller?

• 14:06Speaker 05

  She's like you, little but mighty.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Did you bring her for me? Because I'm short.

• 14:13Speaker 05

  No, no, this has been my main bass since January of 96.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Really? Oh, man. So you have others that you use sometimes, but this is your main?

• 14:24Speaker 05

  This is my girl.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  Main squeeze.

• 14:25Speaker 05

  I had a, I had a bass that was, I used to think it was made by John Juzek, but a guy in Czechoslovakia told me that John Juzek, that's a big name in the bass world.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Oh, I know, because I dated a bass player.

• 14:41Speaker 05

  I'm sorry.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  For a long time, and I will never forget the bass saga of him getting a Juzek bass.

• 14:48Speaker 05

  Well, I found out that John Juzek was not a bass maker, he was a bass distributor.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  So it was all a lie?

• 14:55Speaker 05

  He was the middleman.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  It was all a lie?

• 14:58Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I went to Czechoslovakia to go kind of track him down.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Really?

• 15:04Speaker 05

  I want to learn about the Juzek family line. And I went to this bass shop in Prague, and it was so funny because the guy said it, he didn't really say these exact words, but I was reading in between the lines, he was like, "Oh, you dumb Americans, you think Juzek was the guy. He was not the guy, he was the distributor." You know, I was like, "Oh, oh, okay, so who was the guy?" And then he gave me like a whole bunch of Czech names that I couldn't spell.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  You couldn't find them?

• 15:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, I couldn't find them, but.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  So there was more than one guy, basically?

• 15:39Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  There were several guys?

• 15:40Speaker 05

  Several guys, yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  But did they work kind of in the same community of making basses?

• 15:44Speaker 05

  Yes. And so I had a Juzek-distributed bass from 1989 until British Airways destroyed it.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 15:56Speaker 05

  And December of 95. Yeah, that's right. I'll never forgive you for that, you know.

• 16:03Speaker 05

  But yeah, I had a, my juic was crushed, fell out of the belly of the plane.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh.

• 16:09Speaker 05

  It was like a thirty foot drop, you know?

• 16:11Speaker 00

  From on the ground, but still, yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I had a, it had a really good case, but I, you know, I guess the, you know, it was so far a drop, it just, it didn't make it.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  That's a bummer.

• 16:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, and so David Gage, the guru.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  I know him too, yeah, I love him.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  Um, he, he tried to fix it, he restored it, he did everything he could, but it just didn't get that old sound back.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 05

  And so while I was waiting for him to fix it, he said, man, somebody just came in my shop with an old bass, they want to get rid of it. You need to come check this out. And that was Minnie.

• 16:48Speaker 00

  That's it, he called it.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  Yep, this is an old German bass made in, estimated in nineteen ten.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  It's beautiful.

• 16:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, so she speaks, she's.

• 17:06Speaker 00

  That's beautiful.

• 17:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, so Minnie, she's been there.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  That's great. I remember seeing on your, maybe your Instagram page once, and you took a picture of a flight attendant who was super sweet about your instrument.

• 17:21Speaker 05

  I always try to shout out.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  I think you do that, don't you? You shout out when they're really nice.

• 17:25Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  Do you shout out when they suck about it?

• 17:29Speaker 05

  No, I just go direct to, I just go direct to customer service. You know, I've discovered the, my friend Terion Gully, his wife is, she writes letters all the time.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  Oh, like complaints, kind complaints, well worded, thoughtful complaints.

• 17:47Speaker 05

  And she, and he used to tell me, he said, man, you know, those complaint letters go a long way.

• 17:52Speaker 00

  They do? Like, they really read them?

• 17:54Speaker 05

  I don't know if they do now, but, you know, so. Fortunately, I have not had too many bad instances in quite some time.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, it can be tough trying to go. On a plane with a weird shaped instrument.

• 18:10Speaker 05

  Oh, man.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  They just don't know, they just don't understand sometimes.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  It's hard for working musicians. I mean, I see flight attendants giving trouble to just like guitar players, you know, they got like a little soft gig bag. That's, that's not gonna fit in overhead. Of course it will.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 05

  So.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  It's a tough gig on both ends, I think, too.

• 18:30Speaker 05

  Well, absolutely. You know, you, you, you gotta have empathy.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 18:33Speaker 05

  You know, um, but.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Sometimes people just stink about it.

• 18:40Speaker 05

  You know what I feel bad about? I go, I go to the airport and before I check in, you try to read the friendliest face.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:50Speaker 05

  You know, so like I'm, I'll, I'll be standing in line and I'll see like three ticket agents and I see one about to become open, but they don't look like they're a nice person. I'm like, I'll turn to the person behind me like, no, no, no, no, you, you go ahead. But you're next. No, go, go.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  They're not having a good day.

• 19:07Speaker 05

  I'm waiting for the nice person.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Did you start out on upright bass?

• 19:12Speaker 05

  Nope. Started out on the electric.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  At what age?

• 19:15Speaker 05

  Cause of my dad.

• 19:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  Uh, nine. I was nine.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  He played bass?

• 19:20Speaker 05

  He still does.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  He still does?

• 19:22Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  Phil, in Philly?

• 19:23Speaker 05

  He's one of the workingest bass players in, in Philly.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  He's, my dad, his, his name is Lee Smith and he's working more now than he was when I was a kid. Ain't that right Clyde?

• 19:39Speaker 05

  Hello kids.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Hey.

• 19:41Speaker 05

  How are you?

• 19:41Speaker 00

  I'm good. How are you? I got some good stories about you before you got here.

• 19:46Speaker 05

  Oh, boy. What did I do?

• 19:46Speaker 00

  I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

• 19:48Speaker 05

  She's starting.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  We didn't get to it yet.

• 19:50Speaker 05

  Stirring the pot. What's good, man?

• 19:53Speaker 06

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• 20:21Speaker 00

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• 22:49Speaker 03

  Toyota, let's go places.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  All right, I'm gonna get my dries on and play traditional for the first time in, what, 30 years?

• 23:07Speaker 00

  Traditional? How so?

• 23:09Speaker 03

  I'll hold my stick this way.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Ah.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  That's great. That's some technical thing that I don't know about. You don't usually hold your stick?

• 23:18Speaker 03

  Marching band style. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, most, all my idols play this way, so I'm like, well. Wow, I haven't done this since I was 12.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  Really?

• 23:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Whole episode is the us.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  Good God.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  I'm gonna walk

• 25:00Speaker 05

  Ha ha ha

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Past the master's name

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Things I do

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Seem to be in vain

• 25:23Speaker 00

  You may be fine, you may be late Walk on out in the master's name Though we're treated so bad

• 26:30Speaker 05

  Take another round, take another round, yeah

• 27:29Speaker 05

  I'm gonna walk

• 27:36Speaker 05

  out in the mess and lay

• 27:43Speaker 05

  things I do

• 27:51Speaker 05

  they seem to be in vain

• 27:59Speaker 05

  you may be blind, you may be lame just walk on high in the mess and lay though you're treated so bad

• 28:22Speaker 05

  though you're treated so bad

• 28:49Speaker 05

  Chris

• 28:52Speaker 05

  brother yeah, wait can we just be normal for once and not ever?

• 28:59Speaker 05

  No, we can't. Nora, what you about to learn?

• 29:05Speaker 05

  You bout to be in high school with us. This is a 30-year camaraderie

• 29:11Speaker 05

  where

• 29:14Speaker 05

  he and I are having a total inside conversation with each other based on like every reference. I know, I texted with you both for about 10 minutes.

• 29:30Speaker 05

  Are you going there?

• 29:40Speaker 05

  Oh, this might be a three-part episode. I know, right? Alright, give it to me, you.

• 29:50Speaker 05

  Stand by.

• 29:55Speaker 05

  How long before you commit to this memory?

• 30:04Speaker 05

  Gotta get that in there. Right, right, right.

• 30:18Speaker 05

  Go on, Norah. Next move.

• 30:29Speaker 05

  Turnips.

• 30:32Speaker 05

  SpongeBob. Say what? Rice. SpongeBob.

• 30:40Speaker 05

  Gris and gravy.

• 30:44Speaker 05

  Crack and break.

• 30:52Speaker 05

  Thompson. Right. Jackson's in all these offices right now.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  So when, alright, watch me take the podcast over. Take it over. So when, when you two play, have you two played long enough where you're literally in a linear state of mind where you know the song and you are playing you? Because I just realized, I only realized who I am when I'm not in Roots world. Because when I'm in Roots world, I'm more like traffic cop.

• 31:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  But I noticed that when I'm in jam session, like literally in that song, I referenced maybe 12 drummers. From, uh, Bill Withers drummer.

• 32:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, Gadsden, James Gadsden.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, between Gadsden and, you know, Clyde Jabo. I tried to do Melvin, but I couldn't bring myself to it.

• 32:10Speaker 05

  It might have been too slow for Melvin.

• 32:11Speaker 03

  Right. Right, and so I'm, I'm literally going through. See, the thing is, Melvin is reverse Clyde. So, alright, I do Funky Woman. So, basically, James and I, Chris and I, our connection, of course, is James Brown. And so, with James's, I would say, top three drummers. Clyde Stubblefield has the, probably the best ghost note left hand ever. So a lot of his, like, slowed down a little bit. So, like, he plays, he plays a snare like, like, uh,

• 32:56Speaker 03

  old black church people play the tambourine with the little, like, of course, the, the pace is this, but he'll add the, you know what I mean?

• 33:11Speaker 03

  And Adrice Muhammad is also in, under this umbrella, where his left hand in the ghost note.

• 33:19Speaker 05

  Right.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  And also, I would say Steve Ferrone, formerly of The Heartbreakers and of course, the Average White Band, who's probably a more nuanced Bernard Purdy. Like Bernard Purdy's trademark is horse. Yeah. You know what I mean? So Steve Ferrone takes Clyde Stubblefield's left hand and takes Bernard Purdy's right hand.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  But also, Adrice Muhammad does that a lot. But with James Brown's other drummer, Jabo, John Jabo Starks.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  He's more of a foot guy. So I say John Jabo Starks,

• 34:22Speaker 03

  like he's more about the pulse. So I'll say that even though we credit Clyde Stubblefield for being like James Brown's funkiest drummer, Clyde Stubblefield's more like boutique shopping. Whereas Jabo's more like common everyday.

• 34:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  Meat and potatoes drummer. You know what I mean? Like he's more to swing.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  So that's, and he's also heavy on the one. That's Jabo all day.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  So his emphasis is more on the foot. Now the thing is, Melvin Parker.

• 35:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, he don't play one.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Right. Melvin Parker never hits on the one. So he hits everything but the one. So he's more of like.

• 35:23Speaker 05

  Right, yup.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  So that one, that's missing.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  That's his invoice. So he's more a single paid drummer, you know what I mean?

• 35:42Speaker 03

  But as always, my question to you is,

• 35:46Speaker 03

  when you're not playing your own material, are you, do you morph into another musician? Or, like, I find out I'm more of a shapeshifter than I am, like, I don't think I've identified, I've identified myself as a shapeshifter more than like, oh, that's a mirror plant, but you know when I'm playing.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  I think that's interesting, because I feel like I know when it's you.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Well,

• 36:10Speaker 00

  Also.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  I've made my presence known, but also, it's also like, my style of drumming is more like, like, right now in the culinary world, there's, there's a big giant worry that with words like kale and plant-based, that we're gonna lose, I mean, you know, like, this, 2020 is the whole era of,

• 36:34Speaker 03

  the fight between, you know, traditionalists, how it used to be, and this is how I was raised, versus the disruptors who are like, no, this is, this is the new, this is how it's gonna be. And there's, you know, I guess my stake in that claim is more about the musicianship. So,

• 36:58Speaker 03

  you know, I never wanted to be what they would call like a, you know, like a gospel drummer, gospel chops. So I always imagined that I'm the drummer that works at a steel mill in Ohio, or Milwaukee, or whatever. You know, his wife lets him play with the guys at the local bar, but he's like real sloppy.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  You know, like, like I could.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  I could perfect it, but for me.

• 37:31Speaker 05

  Oh, you have.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, see, the problem is when I'm doing it in terms of hip hop.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  I, I also not only have to be the sample, but I have to also be the drum programming. So.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  That's, that's my, my, my big risk with this next roots record, because I'm actually not going to play like a computer and I'm going to play. I'm trying to play like the sloppiest drunk four-year-old, like how I, I used to play.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  When I was a kid without the.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Like, my, mine is that, but do, do you, like, for you.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  Do you guys shapeshift as well, or do you, are you just too preoccupied with the melody, whatever? Because when I'm drumming, it's so secondhand, like, it's like the back of my head where if I think about drumming, then I'm fucking up. So I'm thinking about like cereal.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  And, wait, did I leave my wallet too? Like, I'm thinking of anything else but drumming.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Really?

• 38:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, because when you start thinking about it, that's where.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  I remember once, uh, at one of my dad's gigs when I was 11, um. We were doing, we were doing On the Wings of Love. And, um, I was, I was 12. Yo, did you know that Steve Rowan's drumming on that?

• 38:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 03

  I did not know that. So, uh, it's like one in the morning, I'm 12 years old, we're in a nightclub. And this is like out in some, some club in, uh, like Darby, like in, in the, in the outskirts and we're playing. You know, my dad's like, all right, you know, you get on drums, the bar is empty. It's like the last set, so he lets me sit in and I did good. And then we got to On the Wings of Love and we got through the first verse.

• 39:29Speaker 03

  And there's, there's, there's like, you know, the drunk guy at Mo's Tavern on The Simpsons?

• 39:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  He's looking at me and he's the only one that's like, wait a minute, what's, what's a 12-year-old kid doing in this nightclub at?

• 39:42Speaker 03

  At two in the morning on a school night. But he's real drunk and he's like,

• 39:47Speaker 03

  "Hey, man, that drummer's really good." And then I messed up that.

• 39:54Speaker 03

  So when I think about it, that's when it's problematic. But is it, is it the same for you at all? Like?

• 40:02Speaker 00

  I, I think thinking about it is always a problem. Feeling it is better. But I, I'm always trying to be myself. Because also as a singer, it's more obvious when you're copying other people you love. You know? So I just try to embody the lyrics in my own way, usually.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  And we were talking earlier about that, the, the steady gig. All those steady gigs you played and, you know, hotel lobbies and things like that, and restaurants and bars. That's, that's where we all got our training, you know?

• 40:33Speaker 03

  Wait, did you ever pay on a payment like? I feel like you came out the womb.

• 40:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know. Revisionist history. But I, I mean, I, I've always been too pragmatic. Cause like, as a bass player, my, my thing was, do whatever you have to do to keep the gig. I was the best worried about, you know, individualism and trying to find, you know, what I'm, just don't get fired.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:57Speaker 05

  That was always my number one thing.

• 40:58Speaker 03

  Wait, you playing fight or flight?

• 41:03Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, there's two ways to live. You either go live fight or flight, or you're gonna live like, "Hey, what can I do to, you know?" I never, I never thought that you would ever have that thought, like, "I don't want to get fired."

• 41:13Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Have you ever gotten fired, Chris McBarry?

• 41:15Speaker 05

  I've gotten close.

• 41:16Speaker 03

  What?

• 41:17Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it, but it wasn't, you remember this well. You remember the no amp days. The, uh, the make bass great again days. When all of these, uh, young cats were coming on the scene, not wanting to play with an amplifier.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 41:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, we were trying to muscle up.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Bleeding fingers.

• 41:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. Right, right. And, uh,

• 41:38Speaker 03

  What era was this?

• 41:39Speaker 05

  Oh, when I first moved to New York. Eighty-nine, ninety, ninety-one.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  Well, an amp's just an extra thing to carry.

• 41:45Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 41:45Speaker 00

  An amp's an extra thing to carry.

• 41:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was all these cats like, "Man, you know, real bass players don't use an amp." You gotta muscle up, raise your strings and, you know, have the microphone way out there and project, right? So, uh, that was, that was courtesy of a particular sect.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 42:02Speaker 05

  Um, um, but I got on Bobby White.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Do they wear suits? Are they from New Orleans?

• 42:07Speaker 05

  Ah. See, see, see, see, see. I wasn't the one, I ain't trying to educate nobody, but.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  I'm wondering who you're talking about.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  No names, no names.

• 42:18Speaker 05

  No names, no names. But I got on Bobby Watts's gig and he was like, uh, say, where's your amp? You know, I don't use no amp. I got a big sound. He's like, I'm sure you do. Buy one an amp. Like, no, man, you know, amp, man, that's, that's, that's some punk shit, man, you know? He's like, oh, it is, huh?

• 42:39Speaker 05

  Say, uh, no, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait.

• 42:45Speaker 05

  I'll get an amp. And, and actually, it was, it was Jeff Tane Watts that saved my gig with Bobby Watts. Cause I was, I was playing the Vanguard with Bobby and Bobby was pissed. He was like, man, get an amp. You know, I was like, no. I was being a petulant 18 year old, you know? And, uh, Tane came down there one night and, and this is when I learned, like, you know, it's cool. So Tane was kind of part of that whole crew.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  He had one foot in there and kind of one foot with us.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  That's right, that's right. So I said, hey, man, can you believe what he wants me to do? He wants me to get an amp. And so Tane was like, well, get one. I was like, for real? He's like, man, just cause you have an amp don't mean you got to crank it. Just, just get an amp. You know, I was like, for real? I, it, it's cool? You ain't gonna be mad at me? Something along those lines, right?

• 43:33Speaker 00

  You thought you were gonna lose your card?

• 43:36Speaker 05

  That sect was really powerful.

• 43:38Speaker 00

  Your cool card?

• 43:38Speaker 05

  In the early 90s. And Tane was like, man, you better get an amp and keep your gig.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  So wait a minute, if, now I can see if it's Village Vanguard, but would that sect say the same for, oh, I don't know, Carnegie Hall or Lincoln Center?

• 43:53Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  No amp?

• 43:55Speaker 05

  Under no circumstances.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  Are you serious?

• 43:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Wait, was there a mic on the thing?

• 43:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was a mic.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, oh, oh.

• 44:00Speaker 05

  The, the theory was.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  I thought, I, here I was thinking no amplification at all in a club. But you mean there's a microphone?

• 44:08Speaker 05

  Yes, there was a microphone. So the, the, the theory was.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  The pickup doesn't sound good?

• 44:13Speaker 05

  The theory was the, the sound, the natural sound of the acoustic bass was destroyed in the 70s. And, and early 80s. Now, I can't argue that.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Do you agree?

• 44:24Speaker 05

  Uh, two, and I think Ron Carter was probably one of the only ones that, that made it out of that whole era, like unscathed, like e- even though he was using an amp and used a DI, he still sounded nice and fat and, and, and good, you know? Uh, but a lot of other people had that real, that real T D, yeah, amplifying bass sound, you know? And everybody-

• 44:47Speaker 03

  You're revealing so much to me right now.

• 44:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, and so, um, um, but Ron was the only one that everybody was like, okay, that's cool.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, it became its own thing, kinda, right?

• 45:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. And then so in the late eighties, when, when the sect was, was, was getting big-

• 45:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  The sect?

• 45:07Speaker 05

  Um, you know, it was kinda like-

• 45:08Speaker 03

  It's like the firm, we can't mention the name.

• 45:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So then it was like, well, everybody raised their strings, unplugged the amps, we're going au naturel to return the bass to its original glory, you know? And then Ray Brown, Ron Carter, you know, uh, Mill Hinton, all the great bass legends, they come hear us play, we all be like-

• 45:32Speaker 03

  And that takes a toll on your hands?

• 45:34Speaker 05

  And they'd be like, what are you doing?

• 45:36Speaker 00

  It's just aggressive. Yeah.

• 45:39Speaker 05

  There's a, I'm, I'ma call him out, cause that's my man. There's a YouTube clip, go, go, there's, I think it was, uh, when Harry Connick Jr. was on some morning show, and, and my brother, Ben Wolf, was playing bass. From a long camera angle, you can see his strings are about that high, off the fingerboard.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  Like, like two inches off the fingerboard?

• 45:58Speaker 05

  Maybe three. And he's playing like-

• 46:04Speaker 05

  I'm very sure he had tendonitis-

• 46:06Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 46:07Speaker 05

  At some point.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that can be good for you.

• 46:09Speaker 05

  Gut strings, you know, it's high, super high action. And at some point, I was just like, you know, this is, this is not right. It doesn't sound good, you know?

• 46:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:20Speaker 05

  So, uh, Ray Brown changed all of that.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  So this, alright, so you're answering a question for me, cause, um-

• 46:28Speaker 03

  At, in my studio setup at 30 Rock,

• 46:32Speaker 03

  what I'm trying to do is get acquainted with all of our plugins.

• 46:38Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Like, I'd spend my lunchtime just like, okay, let me figure out a new sound or whatever. So, you know, when you get a Pro Tools system, you know, there's over like 700 plugins or 7,000 plugins.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Right.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  And, of course, there's different combinations of that stuff. So, you know, I'm trying to think, figure out a new sound. And I keep, I kept seeing this, there's a plugin called Fat Wood.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  Uh-huh.

• 47:01Speaker 03

  Right? Which caught my attention, because I knew that. Right. I thought it changed.

• 47:08Speaker 03

  I said, Fat Wood?

• 47:09Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 47:09Speaker 03

  Let me check this out.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  How they know about that? Right.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  And I got to it, and my engineer, Steve, Steve Vandel, was like, explaining to me how in the jazz world, like, the wood, the natural wood sound, there's an argument over should we... And he said, you know how like, your DI versus

• 47:31Speaker 05

  Right.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  microphone thing or whatever, and how, I don't like the microphone to the amp more than I like

• 47:37Speaker 05

  Uh-huh, okay.

• 47:37Speaker 03

  a DI sound, but I need it for specific reasons.

• 47:40Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  So now I get that you, you, your challenge was natural sound versus

• 47:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. Amping. And to find a happy medium. And I, I think, I mean, like, right now, I'm not using any DI, it's just all microphone.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Well, I can't imagine using a DI in the studio on an acoustic bass.

• 48:03Speaker 05

  I can't either, but I, it depends on, it depends on the, on the music.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 05

  What kind of music you're doing.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:08Speaker 05

  Like, when we did the Philadelphia experiment, that was, I think that was mostly DI, not very much microphone, but for that music, it was perfect.

• 48:18Speaker 00

  It made sense.

• 48:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 00

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• 50:58Speaker 05

  See, I got a story about her.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  No. You do?

• 51:01Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 51:05Speaker 03

  The way you said, no, I was like, wait, did you sign an NDA?

• 51:08Speaker 05

  Right, right, right, right. It was the first time I heard of you, when you played at McCour.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Really?

• 51:14Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Oh, that was forever ago.

• 51:16Speaker 05

  It was like, it was like 2000.

• 51:19Speaker 00

  2000, yeah.

• 51:20Speaker 05

  And my manager at the time was like, hey, we're gonna go see this girl, Norah Jones. You should come, you know?

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 51:27Speaker 05

  I think all of the people from Ted Curlin's office came.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  All the tastemakers.

• 51:34Speaker 05

  They all came, right?

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Ted Curlin.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, they were like, this girl's gonna be huge. She's gonna be huge.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  Really?

• 51:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. And I remember it was packed and I was in, I was in the black of the club. I said it on purpose.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  For an slip.

• 51:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. And, and then you, had your record come out yet? I can't remember.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  No, no, but I had a long lead up to it.

• 51:59Speaker 05

  Right.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  So the label was, I had a weekly gig there. It was a Jewish community center.

• 52:04Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  And it was Singles Night on Wednesdays. And I had a

• 52:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I didn't know.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  Gig every Wednesday on Singles Night. And it started out with nobody.

• 52:12Speaker 05

  You had a regular gig there?

• 52:13Speaker 00

  I had a regular gig there for a year. And it was Singles Night and there weren't a ton of people there for me. And it was just Singles. And then it built up slowly and slowly. And then right, right before my record came out, I think we had our last weekly or something and it was. It was like bananas.

• 52:29Speaker 05

  Man, and then, and then you shout out like a cannon, man. And I was just like, that's her.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  You came to McCourt, did you say hi?

• 52:35Speaker 05

  No, there's too much, too much traffic in there then.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna say the last, the last stages of your buzz before your debut came out. I distinctly remember in a forty-eight hour period,

• 52:50Speaker 03

  I can claim that I saw you, pre-you and pre-Gaga you, oh, pre-you and pre-Gaga, Stephanie, at sort of like piano bar gigs in New York area, within like a seventy. One night, I think I saw her on a Thursday night, man, I saw you on a Sunday night.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 53:11Speaker 03

  And, yeah, it's, that's probably

• 53:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  The only time where I saw someone in their, their sort of like incubator level before.

• 53:22Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 53:23Speaker 05

  You know, John Batiste was my student at the Aspen Summer Program.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  Really?

• 53:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, in, in two thousand one.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  Look at him now.

• 53:32Speaker 05

  I'm telling you, right? So when I see him now, I'm just like, you know, you ain't famous to me.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 53:42Speaker 05

  But no, he, and, and Diana Krall as well, you know, we kind of came up

• 53:46Speaker 03

  She was just

• 53:46Speaker 05

  Together at the, no, no, no, no.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  No, but, but you were young together.

• 53:50Speaker 05

  But, yeah, we came, yeah, like, when she made her first album, well, her first album for GRP, it was ninety-four, we recorded that. I mean, you know, she was

• 54:02Speaker 03

  She was brand new?

• 54:03Speaker 05

  Brand new.

• 54:03Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 54:04Speaker 05

  You know, she, she was doing like the, the bar and hotel circuit, you know? And Tommy LaPuma hurt her, and the rest is history.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  And you played on that early stuff with her or later?

• 54:16Speaker 05

  I played on her, I think I've played on almost all of her records, except her second, and maybe one other in between there.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 54:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, yeah.

• 54:27Speaker 03

  You, so you were produced by Tommy LaPuma?

• 54:29Speaker 05

  That, that was my, that was like my, my third dad.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  Aww.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  Okay, on this, on this album, were you acoustic or electric?

• 54:37Speaker 05

  All acoustic.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  Damn.

• 54:39Speaker 05

  Always, always.

• 54:40Speaker 03

  Have you ever done anything electric with him?

• 54:41Speaker 05

  Big time, yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  It's like, for me, if there's ever a producer that has such a signature

• 54:47Speaker 05

  And my part got replaced. I was heartbroken.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  How did you know?

• 54:52Speaker 05

  Marcus Miller.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 54:53Speaker 05

  So it was cool. I was like, well, why didn't you just get Marcus? He's gotta break my heart when the record comes out. I was like, damn. But it was cool later on.

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Wait, what is that like when you find out that you?

• 55:05Speaker 05

  Heartbreaking.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  Is that a common thing before you know?

• 55:09Speaker 05

  I don't think it is now. I don't think that happens much anymore. I can't be sure, but I don't think that happens much. On Kenny Kirkland's first and only solo album,

• 55:21Speaker 05

  Delphi Marsalis produced it. And I remember he called me in and he said, hey, man, we got this track. We got like four bass parts on there. We got Sharnette Moffett, we got Robert Hurst. I think maybe, no, what, Reginald Veal? But it was just Hurst and Sharnette. He's like, put your bass part down because we can't figure out which one we like.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:41Speaker 05

  So I'm pretty sure on one of those songs on Kenny Kirkland's record, there's like three bass players on one song.

• 55:47Speaker 00

  On one song, they just used them all.

• 55:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, they just kind of, you know. I got four bars, Hurst's got four bars, you know.

• 55:53Speaker 00

  I've almost done that. I don't think I've ever done that.

• 55:55Speaker 05

  Really?

• 55:56Speaker 00

  No. Well, I saw both, I saw you play when I was in college down in Texas. I saw The Roots.

• 56:01Speaker 03

  Really?

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  Wow, I thought.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Heck, yeah.

• 56:04Speaker 03

  I thought the first time we saw each other was when you were sitting in the front row. Of, wait, you're from Denton, Texas, right?

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Well, I'm from Dallas, but I went to college in Denton. Yeah.

• 56:13Speaker 03

  Okay. I'm only learning about Denton. I'm doing the slide doc right now and I didn't know that he was born in Denton, Texas.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  I actually didn't know that either.

• 56:21Speaker 05

  No, I didn't know that.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  Ah.

• 56:23Speaker 03

  He's born in, I'm in the family. There's a, there's a really crazy, um, lost concert that we just found, which is supposed to be like, this is, this is in 72, so I'll say this is maybe like three months before Larry quit. And, um, the first, okay, so of course, uh, in, in prime self-saboteur mode, you know, slide, use time as a means to protest. Always famous for being late to shows and whatnot. So, uh, you know, this is like his homecoming show.

• 57:00Speaker 03

  You know, he went away for two years after his triumphant Woodstock thing. And you know, greatest hits album was, was, he was literally like the biggest star in the world. And so, you know, they were planning this homecoming thing in Denton, Texas. And all you, when, when the, they, they recorded it live and, you know, wanted to preserve it on tape. And so all of a sudden, you hear, it just starts with boos. So obviously.

• 57:27Speaker 05

  Right, he was late, right, right.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  Right, right. So he, I believe, uh, uh, one of the band members told me that they were waiting for about, sort of north of 90 minutes, so maybe like 100 minutes.

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 57:43Speaker 03

  And, um, but he's also, he, he keeps getting away with it because he's also a very charismatic, charming guy. And literally.

• 57:51Speaker 05

  And put on a hell of a show.

• 57:53Speaker 03

  When he walks on stage, he, you know, he does this and, you know, and he does the, look, guys, I'm sorry. But look, I can either solve the problem and start playing now, or you guys can just continue booing. What, what would you like to do? Like, he's really.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  It's very logical.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  Right. And the second they hit, it was like, they forgot.

• 58:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  Everything. Yeah. And so.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Well, that's exciting.

• 58:18Speaker 03

  Denton, Texas, man.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  I can't wait to see that.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a lot that I'm learning right now.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  All the lies were washed up on the shore.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Stay with me.

• 59:35Speaker 00

  I'll pretend you're everything I need.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  Take the bullet out of that gun, I'll bear you my soul. Everything you want to know, swallow me up whole. If I try to escape you, will you play the part? Even if you disappear, I'll hold you in my heart. Say no more.

• 1:00:19Speaker 00

  All the lies were washed up on the shore.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  Stay the night.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  I'll pretend that I put up the fire.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  Say no more.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  All the lies were washed up on the shore.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  Stay with me.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  I'll pretend you're everything I need.

• 1:03:19Speaker 05

  So you saw them, they came to U N T?

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  No, you guys were playing in Dallas. We went down to Dallas to see you.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  Um, was it in that bowling alley?

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  No, it wasn't.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  There's, there's like a, in Dallas, there was something Bowl and it was

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  Like a bowling alley, pool hall and kind of a House of Bluesy.

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  But it's a theater, right?

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, it wasn't there. It was a place where there was a balcony surrounding the stage. I can't remember where it was.

• 1:03:48Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  And then I tried to go see you play with Josh Redman and Brian Blade at Caravan of Dreams, but I was told later by Chris Thomas that it was actually him.

• 1:03:58Speaker 05

  I was out of the band by then.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  You weren't, you weren't there.

• 1:04:00Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  And I think my memory got, you know, sideways, but Chris was like, "That was me." I was like, yes, it was.

• 1:04:09Speaker 05

  Christian Chris.

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  No, I knew who you were.

• 1:04:12Speaker 05

  No, no, no, but.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  I don't think I got to see you till later, like, maybe after I moved to New York.

• 1:04:17Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I didn't. I don't, don't, don't play in Texas much.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Is that true?

• 1:04:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Where, where's your, like, how is?

• 1:04:26Speaker 05

  If I do go to Texas, it's probably Houston, Houston or Austin.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  No Dallas for you, huh?

• 1:04:32Speaker 05

  Not really.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Speaker 03

  So where's your jazz? Where's your, like?

• 1:04:38Speaker 05

  Every jazz itinerary looks the same.

• 1:04:40Speaker 03

  In your American chart.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  It kind of does. It kind of.

• 1:04:42Speaker 05

  All, all Amtrak, so Boston, between Boston and DC.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:48Speaker 05

  Rochester, Buffalo, Toronto, Detroit, Chicago. Indianapolis has gotten a little better. St. Louis.

• 1:05:00Speaker 05

  Not much in the South, man. Not, not a whole lot.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  That's interesting, because, because Denton was a big old jazz school, so.

• 1:05:07Speaker 05

  Well, exactly.

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  We had people come through the college a lot.

• 1:05:10Speaker 05

  Right. Yeah, I've done like master classes there, but never a gig.

• 1:05:13Speaker 03

  So the place where it was invented.

• 1:05:14Speaker 05

  And of course, LA, of course, you know, Seattle, all the way down to San Diego.

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  Gotcha.

• 1:05:18Speaker 05

  Phoenix, Denver.

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think the only place, there was a jazz club in Dallas called Sambuca, but it was very small. And then there was.

• 1:05:25Speaker 05

  That was a chain, right?

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a chain. But then there was a, a Caravan of Dreams in Fort Worth, which is like the club.

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  That was the one.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  That was the only real place that people came of, yeah.

• 1:05:36Speaker 03

  So you're trying to tell me the place where it was invented, it's almost like, well, shit, I mean, New York and hip hop is going through the same thing.

• 1:05:44Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, New Orleans is so insular. They're like, we don't need no northerners come down here. We got it covered.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, there's not a lot of out of town gigs. Gotcha. Yeah.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  And then, then you got the festivals in Europe.

• 1:05:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  Which.

• 1:05:57Speaker 05

  Thank goodness.

• 1:05:57Speaker 03

  Are you tired of your, all right, so for me, like, okay, for you, is most of your summers, and for both of you when you're touring,

• 1:06:08Speaker 03

  are most of your summers outside of the United States? Like, have you been in the United States for a good two month stretch without?

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  Going to Europe?

• 1:06:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  I, I, I mean, I don't tour as much as I used to, but I did last summer just states. And this summer, I'm just doing a month in Europe. And I was excited to do some of the same places I've done a lot. And then I realized, oh, this is just what there is for me. It's like all the same festivals and a lot of the same places, which I do love.

• 1:06:36Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  But it's like, yeah, it gets a little like, wait, did I just go back in time?

• 1:06:41Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the, the summer itinerary tends to look the same.

• 1:06:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Speaker 05

  I mean, I don't think I've seen a July 17th in the United States since we graduated. Well, I didn't see it then. So, yeah, probably 1988.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  So you're always in Europe every summer?

• 1:06:57Speaker 05

  Pretty much.

• 1:06:58Speaker 00

  Well, maybe I'll see you this summer. Are you gonna be there this summer?

• 1:07:00Speaker 05

  Uh, not for long. I'm actually, I, this is, I'm only doing two gigs in Europe in July. I actually get to stay home.

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  Stay home and work or stay home and hang?

• 1:07:11Speaker 05

  Oh, I'm gonna stay home and hang.

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 05

  I'm gonna watch Law and Order my ass off.

• 1:07:18Speaker 05

  I'll be marathoning like crazy.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  Oh, man.

• 1:07:21Speaker 03

  Wow, this is, this year will mark the first year that, um, we're finally doing our first round of arena tours.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:07:32Speaker 03

  Cause the thing is, is that, you know, we've played big numbers in New York City.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  And MSG really isn't that big.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  No, it's like, isn't it like nine or 10,000?

• 1:07:43Speaker 03

  It, it's like maybe 12, 13.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  But you think of it as like 30 and it's not.

• 1:07:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, you would think like 40 something, whatever. And we just never, um, you know, it's always like, okay, when, when do we, when do we play our card to see if we can actually do arenas or not? So.

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  But after the, the thing that we did at the Grammys this year, where we gathered everyone in, in the history of hip hop to do like this mega 12 minute thing.

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  It was great.

• 1:08:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:14Speaker 03

  It was fun to watch.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  It was probably a nightmare to put together.

• 1:08:18Speaker 03

  You look, dude.

• 1:08:19Speaker 05

  Hey, we should have a separate podcast on ND gigs.

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:08:24Speaker 05

  We can talk about it.

• 1:08:25Speaker 00

  Wait.

• 1:08:25Speaker 05

  I've come close to suicide numerous times.

• 1:08:28Speaker 03

  Dog.

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  Musical director gigs? Oh, yeah, where you're, where you're running the show and trying to organize it all?

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  I'll, I'll Tarantino this story and basically say that when I landed in New York. My tooth fell out. So there's, there's this, there's this rock and roll dentist that Lenny Kravitz put the whole community onto, in which this guy does 24 hour work. Like, he even comes to your house, that's a little weird.

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  If he can, yeah.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  Like, you leave him keys, whatever, you take these pills, you're asleep, you wake up in the morning, he already operated on it.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  What? Wait, wait, back up, back up.

• 1:09:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Are you kidding me?

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  I don't do that, I'm not, I'm not that rich. But yes, you can actually, this guy, he's the rock and roll dentist, he goes on tour, he, if you have a full, you know, I don't got time, we gotta be home.

• 1:09:13Speaker 05

  He'll hook you up.

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  Come to the crib.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  While you're asleep.

• 1:09:16Speaker 03

  He's in New York. So he's on 24 hour call, and when I landed, the amount of stress that seven weeks was, because it's somewhere in between, like, on standby, there was a life coach, because you...

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  Wait, a life coach?

• 1:09:31Speaker 03

  So, we also experienced this in the rock and roll, so in the rock and roll Hall of Fame, it's sort of the same thing, where you have to reunite people that haven't played with each other for a long time.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  Oh, and there's a lot of history there.

• 1:09:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of bad history.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  Lot of, was there a therapist?

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's why I had to have this person there, like, literally there to talk. So there was, there was two situations where, you know, yo, back in 2007, you took $3,000 out of my bag and da-da-da, whatever, like, that.

• 1:10:00Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  That's intense.

• 1:10:02Speaker 03

  But then there was mostly like, well, how many bars is da-da-da getting? And, you know, how much explosions is da-da-da getting?

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  Oh, gotcha.

• 1:10:11Speaker 05

  I used to think that wasn't real.

• 1:10:13Speaker 03

  Dude, it was like...

• 1:10:14Speaker 05

  Why, that's petty.

• 1:10:15Speaker 03

  If you ever seen, I don't know if you watched 30 Rock, but if you ever watched the, the Source Awards episode of 30 Rock, which alone is a setup and a joke and a punchline at the same time.

• 1:10:28Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 1:10:28Speaker 03

  It literally, it was, it, it almost went Murphy's Law, and then at the last minute, it was the, it was the biggest hail mary...

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  With seconds on the clock left, toss the ball up and just pray someone on the other end catches it.

• 1:10:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Speaker 03

  And they caught it. I'll put it this way, the last act, Little Uzi Vert, I didn't even know he was on stage. And that's only because of the way that the show was built. I couldn't see what was happening around the corner. Yeah, you were spread out. But you, do you remember how like after Prince did Purple Rain and he stormed off stage like?

• 1:11:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  Like, ah, I've ruined everything, I fucked up, and that's what I did. Like, I was having a panic attack.

• 1:11:14Speaker 05

  Oh, man.

• 1:11:15Speaker 03

  I was about to cry. Wow. And I stormed off stage and I was like, oh man, I ruined it, I ruined it. And then my band's like congratulating each other. I'm like, what are y'all doing? He's like, yeah, did you see what Little Uzi Vert did? I said, wait, he was there? He's like, yeah, he came up last minute. And literally, they had to show me on Twitter what had happened. You didn't even know. And they were like, how did you not know and you were literally on stage? But I swear to God, like.

• 1:11:36Speaker 05

  Couldn't see.

• 1:11:37Speaker 03

  After, after a point, I just blanked out because I'd started going in my head, like, I fucked this up. Everyone's gonna cancel me. I'm be trending on Twitter. He messed up the hip hop 30 thing. And literally, my la- because there was even acts that dropped out 10 minutes before because they lost. Really? Oh, one, one, our headliner, uh, thought he might win a particular award and, you know, when it went to someone else, man, fuck the Grammys, I'm out. I'm like, yo, you can't. And it was every type of stress and that's how my tooth fell out. So just in terms of like, MDing, man. It's hard. You, you can't be no one's friend.

• 1:12:17Speaker 05

  Sam, Sam Moore got, got mad at me one time.

• 1:12:20Speaker 03

  Sam Moore?

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:12:22Speaker 03

  Sam and Dave?

• 1:12:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  Oh, he's world famous for that. What happened?

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  So we, we're at the White House and it was, it's the big Ray Charles tribute and I'm kind of wearing what I have on exactly right now.

• 1:12:32Speaker 03

  Which is like a T-shirt, yeah.

• 1:12:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, I got, had a black T-shirt on and a black sport jacket. So I got the big band and, uh, you know, a lot of, you know, Demi Lovato was there, Usher, um, Yolanda Adams, all these people. So I wasn't paying attention. I had a James Brown T-shirt on.

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  Oh, no. Oh. Oh, no.

• 1:12:54Speaker 05

  But my jacket was, you know, kind of closed like this. And so Sam Moore comes in and, uh, you know, Mr. Moore, you know, good morning, it's great to see you. I'm so honored to work with you. He's like, who is that? And he, he looks at my shirt and as soon as he saw it, like, oh. It was too late to change my clothes. He was like, James Brown.

• 1:13:17Speaker 03

  What's their history?

• 1:13:18Speaker 05

  Why I gotta look at James Brown? I was like, well, Mr. Moore, I can, I can, I can go change my shirt. No, no, no, it's too late now. Why you got a James Brown shirt on? It's like, I, it's the only clean one I have.

• 1:13:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've been on the road for the last five, didn't get to do laundry, you know? He was like, and for the next 15 minutes, he, he wouldn't, he wouldn't sing the song. He was just, I can't believe you wearing a James Brown t-shirt.

• 1:13:46Speaker 00

  He couldn't get over it.

• 1:13:47Speaker 05

  Could not get over it.

• 1:13:48Speaker 03

  Was he evicted by one of them card games?

• 1:13:49Speaker 05

  So, so later on, I texted Alan.

• 1:13:52Speaker 03

  Ah, tell me the story.

• 1:13:53Speaker 05

  I said, Alan, what's the, what's the deal? And so.

• 1:13:57Speaker 03

  Alan, Alan Leeds, James Brown.

• 1:13:58Speaker 05

  Our friend Alan Leeds.

• 1:13:59Speaker 00

  Okay, thanks.

• 1:14:00Speaker 05

  And so he's like, there was, there was no direct story that he knew of. It was just sort of like an overall, he was like, man, no, none of James Brown's peers from the 60s liked him.

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 1:14:11Speaker 03

  There's either a woman or a card game.

• 1:14:14Speaker 05

  Right, right, right.

• 1:14:15Speaker 03

  The ends where I got to cut you.

• 1:14:17Speaker 05

  I felt so bad. I was like, man, I should run my room real quick.

• 1:14:22Speaker 03

  Seriously?

• 1:14:22Speaker 05

  I was like, let's take a 45 minute break. I'm gonna go back to the hotel and change my shirt. I did not, but, uh.

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  The damage was done.

• 1:14:29Speaker 05

  Oh my, he finally got over it the ne- the day of the gig.

• 1:14:35Speaker 06

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• 1:15:48Speaker 00

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• 1:15:58Speaker 00

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• 1:16:43Speaker 00

  closer to biomedical researchers. Learn more about how Cleveland Clinic and IBM are using AI and quantum computing to revolutionize biomedical research at ibm.com/smarttalks.

• 1:16:58Speaker 03

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• 1:17:37Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:17:38Speaker 03

  And that turnaround is one of the hardest things.

• 1:17:48Speaker 03

  Right, so that turnaround is hard as hell.

• 1:17:50Speaker 05

  Yes, it is, yeah.

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  And we used to do this annual gig out in the Hamptons where the former owner of the Apollo Theater does one of those fancy schmancy like 10,000, 20,000 and play thing and you know like an occasional Paul McCartney shows up or whatever and you know it's like a fun time and like the Roots have been the house band for this thing for like like maybe the last 10 years and but the thing is is also I think one of the downfalls of being on The Tonight Show is a lot of people just believe in the smoke and mirrors of it all of like oh, the Roots could do anything, just don't they, and they could do it. And then they could do it. And so, you know, they'll come in the door, they'll come in the gate like, okay,

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  you're gonna play these three songs with McCartney and three songs with Sting and these three songs. So, you know, we already got like 18 songs. But then always the last minute it's like, Bon Jovi wants to do that, do you know it? Meanwhile, you're playing this song and I gotta put on my computer and learn Living on a Prayer that way like and so Darlene Love wanted to do River Deep, Mountain High. And this is all I know. I messed up, okay, so I messed up that turnaround, right?

• 1:19:03Speaker 05

  Oh, boy.

• 1:19:04Speaker 03

  But at least I was smart enough to just 16 it. I didn't know the count, so I just.

• 1:19:14Speaker 05

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:19:16Speaker 03

  I cheated it that way.

• 1:19:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Speaker 03

  Man, when I tell you.

• 1:19:19Speaker 05

  Oh, boy.

• 1:19:20Speaker 03

  Like, we didn't even meet yet, but because she wasn't accustomed to doing it like the way she normally does it. All I remember was I took responsibility, I was like, my bad, whatever, she turned around and said. I'm gonna fucking kill you.

• 1:19:39Speaker 05

  Oh, boy.

• 1:19:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I will say that.

• 1:19:45Speaker 05

  We've all been there.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  Dealing with your heroes or your peers in the M D position is the fastest way.

• 1:19:53Speaker 05

  You just got a, you just got bullseye on your chest.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  Make enemies.

• 1:19:57Speaker 05

  They gonna get you. Somebody's gonna get you.

• 1:20:00Speaker 03

  Okay, without naming a name, has an idol ever?

• 1:20:03Speaker 05

  Wait a minute.

• 1:20:04Speaker 00

  No, wait, no, no, no, no. Has an idol ever been mean?

• 1:20:08Speaker 05

  Disappointed you?

• 1:20:10Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:20:11Speaker 03

  Wow. You live the charm life?

• 1:20:13Speaker 00

  I'm serious. One time, they kind of annoyed me, but I'm not gonna name a name.

• 1:20:19Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, that's without naming a name.

• 1:20:21Speaker 00

  Like, I was like, oh, they're kind of annoying, but like, still love them. I'm not even gonna say if it's a man or woman.

• 1:20:28Speaker 05

  Well, you already know my answer.

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, you've had some disappointments. I strangely haven't, I actually am surprised I've never had a disappointment.

• 1:20:37Speaker 03

  But wait, was that instance your last interaction with that person?

• 1:20:40Speaker 00

  No, it wasn't. It was just like, okay, not gonna get too close there, maybe, but, um, yeah.

• 1:20:48Speaker 05

  I feel bad. Well, no, I'm talking about James Brown. No, no, it was fine.

• 1:20:53Speaker 00

  You're naming names.

• 1:20:55Speaker 05

  It ended on a very high note, so it was good.

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  Wait, wait, wait. Wait, go back. Who, who were you just talking about?

• 1:21:01Speaker 05

  James Brown.

• 1:21:02Speaker 00

  That was tricky and it ended on a high note. Yeah.

• 1:21:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, that was below tricky.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:21:08Speaker 03

  I'm almost certain that Chris has undersold his love for James Brown.

• 1:21:12Speaker 00

  I think I get it.

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  No, but it's beyond, you know, it's beyond me. Any, anytime a person comes to me and like, hey, you know, this is James Brown. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's almost like I gotta ask my dad first. I'm like, wait, did you ask Christian McBride first? Like?

• 1:21:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, it goes beyond the T-shirt.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  The DNA of, of James is, you know, heavy in Chris, so.

• 1:21:33Speaker 05

  Well, you know, so that's a perfect segue into how we met in high school. Because, you know, we both grew up in Philly. We went to Creative and Performing Arts, which is the same high school where the late great, it still feels weird saying the late.

• 1:21:50Speaker 03

  You just said that and it just hit me.

• 1:21:52Speaker 05

  The late great Joey D. Francesco.

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  I know, you just lost him.

• 1:21:55Speaker 05

  Kurt Rosewinkle, Boys to Men, Amel LaRue.

• 1:21:57Speaker 00

  Wait, I didn't know Kurt went there, too.

• 1:21:59Speaker 03

  Oh, did he?

• 1:22:00Speaker 05

  Yep, yep.

• 1:22:03Speaker 03

  Kurt was like.

• 1:22:06Speaker 03

  He like, it was like a gang. And him and Joey were the Crips and Kirk was the Bloods.

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  And I was on whatever side was winning at the time.

• 1:22:17Speaker 00

  You'd bounce back and forth.

• 1:22:19Speaker 03

  Well, this is my first time that I've been in that situation where like I'm with peers my age playing. And so they're like traditional jazz. So in order for me to get their respect, I better speak their language. But then he's like trying to unteach me everything they're teaching me. By like this Captain Beefheart and this is Frank Zappa.

• 1:22:37Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 1:22:38Speaker 05

  So. And, and so, but, but the, the thing where I felt really alone was I was also hardcore in R and B and funk. So, I mean, Joey could play it, but he, that, he didn't know a lot of, that wasn't his thing. Exactly, you know, uh, and Kurt didn't, you know, so like I was by myself when it came to, you know, Motown and Stacks and, and James Brown, Earth, Wind and Fire, all that. So then he comes to school and, um, yeah, I remember.

• 1:23:06Speaker 03

  I'm on Rosenwinkel's guitar.

• 1:23:08Speaker 05

  I thought you were playing this, well, not, not this bass, but you were playing the bass.

• 1:23:12Speaker 03

  I was doing the bass line first?

• 1:23:13Speaker 05

  You was messing around. You, you, I came in, I came in the music room and, and there's this new, this new dude in, in the music program. And he's kind of like.

• 1:23:28Speaker 05

  And I said, I just kind of stood there like, oh, really? We got a James Brown head in school now.

• 1:23:36Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 1:23:37Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:23:37Speaker 05

  And, uh, I mean, instant bond, instant bond. And my mother was so happy because she was like, thank God you got somebody you can talk to funk. You know, you got somebody you can hang with now, talk about funk.

• 1:23:51Speaker 03

  Instead of us old people.

• 1:23:52Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 1:23:55Speaker 00

  Are you, were you in a younger grade? Is that why you came along later?

• 1:23:59Speaker 05

  Well, you transferred.

• 1:24:00Speaker 00

  You transferred in.

• 1:24:01Speaker 03

  Like my, I, for the first eight years of my life, I went to the private version of that school. Performing arts school. And then there was a period where. I don't know if you know this educator named Marva Collins.

• 1:24:15Speaker 00

  Mm-mm.

• 1:24:16Speaker 03

  Okay, I'll tell you what. When you listen to Songs in the Key of Life by Stevie Wonder, when you listen to the last two minutes of Black Man, where the teacher, "Who's the..." "Seventy, seventy." Like, the little kids are yelling back at him. Just listen to the last two minutes of Black Man. That's the Marva Collins school in Chicago. And she was a woman who, um, Cabrini-Green projects, the Good Times projects, like, these were like, you know, the worst kids with the worst GPA on earth. And she just decided one day, "I'm gonna turn you all into mental level Ivy League students." And so, one by one, everyone who's ever been in her class wound up going to doctors, nurses, like, that sort of thing.

• 1:25:00Speaker 03

  And so, that's, like, every seventies parent was like, "Bing, bing, bing." So I went to a lot of schools that were like, private schools that, uh, were guaranteed that your kid was gonna be in Harvard or whatever, like, at the end of their school tenure. And then the last two years, I happened to see, uh, on Channel 10, on CBS, I saw this fourteen-year-old kid writing Dreams. Yo, do you have that on tape?

• 1:25:39Speaker 05

  No, but it's on YouTube.

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  I hate you right now, man.

• 1:25:43Speaker 03

  Yes, Dreams is sort of like, it's...

• 1:25:46Speaker 05

  A made-for-TV movie about Kappa.

• 1:25:49Speaker 03

  About our school. This is before I went there. But I saw Joey, uh, playing on, like, this clip. And I was just mind-blown that a thirteen, fourteen-year-old could play like an adult. Because I only grew up, you know, my dad was an oldies doo-wop singer. So I only hung with old musicians, which is why I play the way I play now, because,

• 1:26:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:16Speaker 03

  literally it was like, me at five and a bunch of thirty-year-olds. And I never interacted with kids my own age or whatever, so...

• 1:26:23Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 1:26:24Speaker 03

  That's, you know, I just told my mom, like, I want to play with kids my own age. Like, I grew up thinking like, oh damn, I'm the only kid that knows how to play like this. And I came in for the rudest awakening.

• 1:26:37Speaker 00

  That is kind of interesting.

• 1:26:38Speaker 03

  Dude, the first day of school, Miles Davis is at school, like,

• 1:26:43Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:26:44Speaker 03

  Giving him, for the first two weeks of school.

• 1:26:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, something like, there used to be a morning talk show in Philly, hosted by a guy named Bill Boggs. It's called Time Out. And they had, you're right, and they had Miles Davis as a guest. And so, I found this out later, that, um, uh, they felt, because I saw an interview with Bill Boggs, it was interesting. He said, he remembers that episode well because the producers didn't think Miles Davis's name was big enough to carry an hour of an interview. Can you imagine?

• 1:27:22Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:27:22Speaker 05

  The absurdity of that?

• 1:27:23Speaker 00

  I can't imagine that.

• 1:27:24Speaker 05

  It was, you remember Maurice Heinz was also a guest that day? So, that was the reason. They say, well, you know, we need a second guest.

• 1:27:30Speaker 03

  We need another name.

• 1:27:31Speaker 05

  We need another name.

• 1:27:32Speaker 03

  Get his brother, Maurice.

• 1:27:33Speaker 05

  Miles can't do it by himself, you know? And also, to kind of make it cutesy, they decided they would get some kids to play for Miles.

• 1:27:42Speaker 03

  Man.

• 1:27:43Speaker 05

  And so, and then Miles.

• 1:27:45Speaker 03

  Look at Nora's face right now.

• 1:27:46Speaker 05

  Well, that's, that's what everybody said, right? And so, uh, so they had me, Joey, Stacy Dozier playing drums. She played drums in our high school band before Amir got there. And they invited four, uh, young trumpet players from the Philly school system to play. And Miles would, you know, give them advice on live television.

• 1:28:09Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 1:28:10Speaker 05

  A very foolish decision.

• 1:28:12Speaker 00

  Is this on YouTube?

• 1:28:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:28:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I can't watch it.

• 1:28:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Speaker 03

  It's like watching Showtime or Deep House.

• 1:28:17Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 1:28:18Speaker 03

  It's dramatic.

• 1:28:19Speaker 00

  That sounds like a bad idea.

• 1:28:21Speaker 05

  It was a really, really ridiculous idea. And you know, Miles.

• 1:28:24Speaker 00

  They didn't know Miles at all.

• 1:28:26Speaker 05

  Apparently not. They, they, first of all, they needed the second, seven second delay.

• 1:28:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:32Speaker 05

  Because Miles dropped a few F-bombs on, and this is morning television.

• 1:28:35Speaker 00

  Morning, yeah.

• 1:28:35Speaker 05

  You know, like, all the parents and, you know, their moms are sitting in audience. You know, and, uh, Bill Boggs asked Miles, he said, uh,

• 1:28:45Speaker 05

  Uh, you know, Miles, you know, you, you went into seclusion for a few years. You know, what was it that, that you know, gave you the inspiration to come back?

• 1:28:53Speaker 00

  Seriously?

• 1:28:54Speaker 05

  And Miles, Miles, he waited for a second, he said,

• 1:28:59Speaker 05

  "One day, Dizzy Gillespie came over and he said, "Man, what the fuck are you doing?"

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  On morning television.

• 1:29:11Speaker 05

  And God bless Bill Bynum, he's just sitting there like, "Mm-hmm."

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  Trying to just act like it's totally regular.

• 1:29:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, "Man, get up off your ass." So like, um, and there was another time Miles was trying to remember somebody's name. He's like, "Yeah, it was me and, uh,

• 1:29:32Speaker 05

  "Oh shit, I forgot, um..." Damn, Miles!

• 1:29:36Speaker 03

  This is, this is my-

• 1:29:37Speaker 05

  You're live TV, dude!

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  This is my second week of school.

• 1:29:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:29:42Speaker 03

  In a, in a public school, discovering that people born the same year as me can play like me and better than me. So, the bubble I was in was instantly, like, bursted. And I had so much catching up to do, man, just...

• 1:30:03Speaker 05

  I, I kept begging him to join the All-City Jazz Band. I got him to come with me a couple of times.

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:30:10Speaker 05

  I was like, "Dude, come on." He was like, "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, take, bruh, sit down, play." And so he played and, like, "Come on, bro, you got this."

• 1:30:20Speaker 03

  Froze.

• 1:30:20Speaker 05

  And then, uh, Little John Roberts was up there too.

• 1:30:23Speaker 03

  And he was literally Little John Roberts. Like, I looked at him like, "Oh, a little running," 'cause, 'cause he was younger than us. He was like in eighth grade.

• 1:30:31Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:30:32Speaker 03

  Eighth or ninth, but he looked like he was in seventh grade.

• 1:30:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, he was two years behind us, I think.

• 1:30:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Speaker 05

  But, uh, yeah, we, we, we did have some good drummers. But I mean, you know, who's got more pocket than him?

• 1:30:44Speaker 00

  I know, but, but-

• 1:30:45Speaker 05

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:30:46Speaker 00

  But you guys played together in an ensemble?

• 1:30:48Speaker 05

  In school?

• 1:30:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, in school.

• 1:30:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, in school. But you were more in the jazz zone?

• 1:30:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:30:53Speaker 00

  And you didn't go deep into the jazz zone?

• 1:30:56Speaker 03

  See, the thing was-

• 1:30:57Speaker 05

  I tried to.

• 1:30:58Speaker 00

  You tried.

• 1:30:58Speaker 05

  I tried to get him.

• 1:30:59Speaker 03

  So, my story is really-

• 1:31:01Speaker 05

  It was like-

• 1:31:03Speaker 05

  Come on.

• 1:31:04Speaker 03

  But the thing is, is that I, I, the, the part I always leave out the story was like, my dad was like a Joe Jackson backstage mom.

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  Oh, the worst. So he wanted me, my dad was like, dog. He was like, you got two options, three options, Curtis, Juilliard, or a job. Curtis, Juilliard, or a job. And I, to this day, people don't believe me when I tell them, my dad didn't find out about The Roots until our second album.

• 1:31:45Speaker 05

  That's hilarious.

• 1:31:46Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:31:47Speaker 03

  Because, like-

• 1:31:48Speaker 00

  He was too much pressure.

• 1:31:49Speaker 03

  The amount of sneaking I had to do.

• 1:31:50Speaker 05

  Your mom knew though, right?

• 1:31:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, she knew, but-

• 1:31:54Speaker 05

  She had your back.

• 1:31:54Speaker 03

  The amount of sneaking I had to do was like, I can't let these guys know I listen to hip hop that way, and can't let Kurt Rosenwinkel know that, yes, you're trying to undo, because the thing was, is Kurt was like, jazz needs to go forward. And the first time that Kurt even planted the seed in me that this particular god figure in jazz might be a step backwards and not forward, was he planted that seed in me. So he's like, yo, man, all the b-bop stuff from before, that's dead, man, that's dead, we gotta move. And he's trying to like, tell me about like, you know, Embass and, you know, like, all

• 1:32:34Speaker 03

  these like, crazy jazz ensembles and everything that I'm like, a lot of avant-garde, whatever. So I'm doing my avant-garde stuff with Rosenwinkel, but when these guys are around, I'm like, okay, all right, so Larry Young's Unity record, study that up and down, and da-da-da-da-da.

• 1:32:50Speaker 00

  That sounds like a lot of conflict.

• 1:32:52Speaker 03

  It was. I was on whatever side was winning, but then, but then, because of Public Enemy, finally making sense of my dad's boring record collection.

• 1:33:03Speaker 03

  You know, I have someone upstairs that I'm like trying to build a future with. And, you know, it's also in the name of impressing a girl.

• 1:33:10Speaker 05

  Always.

• 1:33:12Speaker 03

  That was a fail, but I got the career.

• 1:33:15Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 1:33:17Speaker 03

  Hey. Whatever works.

• 1:33:19Speaker 05

  What it is, what it is.

• 1:33:25Speaker 03

  Hey, man. So, yeah, and pretty much, I decided, so you went to Juilliard?

• 1:33:32Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:33:33Speaker 03

  And I was like, alright, well.

• 1:33:34Speaker 05

  Not for long.

• 1:33:35Speaker 03

  Chris, right, you did the same, you did the Miles thing, right?

• 1:33:38Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 1:33:38Speaker 03

  So I was like, I'm gonna do the same. So I did my, I did my new school audition, my Curtis audition, and my Juilliard audition. One particular weekend, Tariq went with me. And coming back on the train, this, this is like, this is like either somewhere in between a Grey Poupon commercial or the last scene in Dumber Dumber. The world's most beautiful girl walks up in slow motion and says,

• 1:34:05Speaker 03

  "Aren't you..." Now, side note, side note, yes, I was the drummer, Boyz II Men had let me drum in their Motown Philly video.

• 1:34:12Speaker 00

  Ah, that's right.

• 1:34:13Speaker 03

  So she got it mixed. She says, "Aren't you the drummer in the Spike Lee, Levi's commercial?" So, like, busking just started to become a thing in America where, you know, there was a kid that was playing bucket drums.

• 1:34:27Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:34:28Speaker 03

  And Spike Lee had put him in a commercial, whatever. He had similar hair to mine, he had like twists and braids. And so, she came out, it was like Grey Poupon. He's like, "Aren't you that drummer in the Spike Lee, Levi's commercial?" And my dumb ass was like, "No, that's not me." And she was like, "Oh."

• 1:34:45Speaker 05

  Oh, you're right.

• 1:34:46Speaker 03

  Okay. And then she walks away, and Tariq's like,

• 1:34:53Speaker 03

  I was like, "Well, because it wasn't me." "Dude, you knew she was talking about, you knew she was talking about Motown Philly." Like, Tariq would use me as his magnet to get, like, "Wear the shirt, you got the shirt on?" "No, no, go back and put your outfit on." Like, I'd have to wear that outfit every weekend. Right. So, he spends the night at the crib, and we're watching Soul Train. And commercial comes on, and it's the Spike Lee, Levi's commercial. And it was the, it was our Eureka moment. We looked at the commercial, we thought about that girl, that I could've got her number, but didn't. And we looked at each other like...

• 1:35:27Speaker 03

  Yo, why don't we do that?

• 1:35:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  And cut to running the kitchen, sneaking the, you know, chitlin bucket out or whatever.

• 1:35:37Speaker 03

  You know, you mean that red bucket?

• 1:35:38Speaker 05

  The red joint?

• 1:35:42Speaker 03

  The red chitlin bucket. Every household has one.

• 1:35:45Speaker 05

  Man, I remember, never forget the first time I smelled chitlins. My grandma was cooking chitlins. I was coming, I smelled them two blocks away. I was coming down Irving Street and I was like, I really pray to God that's not coming from our house. There was a line of people coming out the front. I'm like, oh no.

• 1:36:03Speaker 03

  There is no black household that doesn't, even if you don't eat chitlins, you still have that red bucket that you use for other stuff.

• 1:36:13Speaker 05

  Along with the, uh, the, the, the government cornflakes and the cheese and the milk.

• 1:36:17Speaker 03

  Son.

• 1:36:18Speaker 05

  All that.

• 1:36:18Speaker 03

  All right, the government milk?

• 1:36:20Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:36:21Speaker 03

  I still stand to it to this day.

• 1:36:23Speaker 05

  And, and the, uh, cornflakes were killing.

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. I can't believe we're talking about this.

• 1:36:28Speaker 05

  And that's sharp cheese?

• 1:36:29Speaker 03

  And the cheese.

• 1:36:30Speaker 05

  Oh, come on, man.

• 1:36:31Speaker 03

  Dude, I would have to wake up, I, when my parents weren't touring.

• 1:36:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:36:36Speaker 03

  I would have to wake up, uh, staying at my grandmom's house.

• 1:36:40Speaker 00

  Wait, your mom toured too?

• 1:36:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, my, both my mom and dad were, my father was famous in the, uh, the 50s. He had a group called The Angels in the Hearts. They were on like chess records. And then by the time I was born, there was a, a nostalgia wave where they would do these oldie shows at, you know, Madison Square Garden, you know, the Bowser from Sha Na Na Presents, you know, Harvey and the Moonblows and all that stuff. So anyway, uh, they got off that circuit and then just had a nightclub act. And so when I couldn't tour with them, I had to stay in my grandmom's house. Now, in order for me to watch Soul Train at 12, I would have to do whatever chores were necessary. And on the first of the month, that's when the new cheese supply comes. And since I'm Philma's grandson.

• 1:37:31Speaker 03

  You know, it's like it takes a village period where now not only do I have to get cheese and stuff for my grandma, but I gotta do it too for Miss Gussie.

• 1:37:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:37:40Speaker 03

  Miss Evans, Mrs. Fields across the street.

• 1:37:43Speaker 05

  You gotta get the whole neighborhood.

• 1:37:44Speaker 03

  Right, so I gotta get up at seven in the morning and stand in the cheese line.

• 1:37:49Speaker 05

  Where did your grandmother live?

• 1:37:50Speaker 03

  She was in southwest Philly, like at 49th and King Cecil.

• 1:37:54Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, okay.

• 1:37:55Speaker 03

  So I would have to stand in that line and do about four trips. Not to mention the ridicule, the neighborhood kids like, ah, you in the cheese line, you in the cheese.

• 1:38:04Speaker 05

  They was in there too, later that day.

• 1:38:06Speaker 03

  I was by their households then. I'm like, you ridiculing me, this cheese is going to your grandma's house.

• 1:38:11Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 1:38:11Speaker 03

  Motherfucker.

• 1:38:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, hey, you know, that's how they do it.

• 1:38:15Speaker 03

  I couldn't, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't even watch Soul Train until all that was done.

• 1:38:22Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:38:22Speaker 03

  So every first of the month, I hated it. But yes, we took that chitlin' bucket on South Street. And the thing is, is that if we, if we don't make a hundred and twenty dollars in four hours, we're not doing it again. It would just be like, hey, you remember that time we went on South Street and played for money or whatever? Yeah. But we made like a hundred bucks in the first like hour. And we looked like, yo, we rich, because we was thinking like, yo, we get a trizzy.

• 1:38:51Speaker 03

  A transpass is a, you know, like a monthly ticket that, yeah, New York has that here, right? Like, a train ticket for a month. It's like, yo, you can get a trizzy. And then, uh, date night, see the movie before 5:00 PM, movies are like three bucks. Go to Wawa, get a quarter pound of turkey, cheese. Like, we were like rich. Like, yeah, we gotta do it again. But the next week, we did it. I still was in Settlement Music School. And one of the bass player there, Josh Abrams, was like, yo, y'all going to do it again? I was like, yeah. He's like, well, can I join? Yeah, sure, cool. So he picks me up in a station wagon and he has his up right in the back and I'm bringing the bucket. And he's like, wait, we got the station wagon. I was like, huh?

• 1:39:35Speaker 05

  Get the drums.

• 1:39:36Speaker 03

  He said, get the drums. I was like, oh, man, my dad, man, he's. So it was the most covert operation where like.

• 1:39:43Speaker 00

  You had to sneak them out?

• 1:39:44Speaker 03

  And this is why, like, when people ask, like, why I don't want to play on a regular drum set? Like, literally, I was like, look, we're just gonna get the kick drum, the steer drum, and the hi-hat, and one ride.

• 1:39:53Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 1:39:54Speaker 03

  And sneak it out. And literally, I'm, you know, he's listening to sports talk upstairs, and, you know, anytime the water runs, like, we're running outside, whatever. Put down the block! And that entire summer of 92, like, I snuck, and we got our independent record out. And a year later, when we finally signed to Geffen, I was gonna break the news to him, but already he put a Philadelphia Inquirer, which is like our New York Times.

• 1:40:19Speaker 05

  Right, right, right.

• 1:40:20Speaker 03

  We were on the cover. He was like, uh, what's this? I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, me and Tewi got a project, so, you know.

• 1:40:27Speaker 00

  That's how he met you.

• 1:40:29Speaker 03

  So...

• 1:40:29Speaker 05

  Well, I remember, like, when we were still at Kappa, Tyree came downstairs, and he was, he was an art major.

• 1:40:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:40:37Speaker 05

  I didn't even know he had any sort of, you know, that he could, he could freestyle like that. He was like, yo, play, um, uh, Stone to the Bone.

• 1:40:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:40:50Speaker 03

  Tyree recalled the rap reference, like, oh, play the Giddy up by Three Times Dope. And then I've had to translate to him, play James Brown's Stone to the Bone. So I was the middleman between all the hip-hopers.

• 1:41:01Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 1:41:01Speaker 03

  And him. But knowing that allowed me to sit with the cool kids in the lunchroom.

• 1:41:07Speaker 00

  I feel like that says a lot about your personality and your strengths. Just this whole, like, dynamic of you bridging all these different things.

• 1:41:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, he, he, he plays well in the playground with everybody.

• 1:41:19Speaker 00

  You do.

• 1:41:20Speaker 05

  You know?

• 1:41:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:21Speaker 03

  I play just to get by. Thank you.

• 1:41:23Speaker 00

  But it's no longer stressful, is it?

• 1:41:26Speaker 03

  Is it stressful?

• 1:41:28Speaker 05

  Probably. I mean...

• 1:41:29Speaker 00

  I mean, I guess being the MD for everything is always stressful.

• 1:41:33Speaker 03

  It's, you know, for me, I'm, I'm learning now, uh, okay, this, this is not even, this, this is not even, I, I just gotta come out and say it and not try to diminish the humble bragging-ness of it all. But occasionally, I might call a famous...

• 1:41:56Speaker 03

  Former world leader and ask for advice on how to be diplomatic and talk to people. Cause that's one, that's one thing I'm, I'm, I was a reluctant leader. But clearly I'll be stuck in that place if I don't get over the fact that I have to. Like you can't be everyone's friend.

• 1:42:15Speaker 00

  You have to get over it and move ahead.

• 1:42:17Speaker 03

  And manage people's expectations and all these things. So.

• 1:42:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that, that comes with being a band leader.

• 1:42:23Speaker 00

  I wonder which world leader you're talking about.

• 1:42:26Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 1:42:31Speaker 00

  You guys want to play a tune and then we'll.

• 1:42:32Speaker 03

  Let's play a tune.

• 1:42:33Speaker 05

  What you want to play?

• 1:42:33Speaker 00

  Can we do this Chris Christopherson song?

• 1:42:35Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I can sing?

• 1:42:37Speaker 00

  I, it's kind of weird. I was just with him a couple of weeks ago and I was just revisiting this album that I love called Borderlord. And I just feel like with your groove on it, it would be pretty awesome.

• 1:42:48Speaker 05

  Uh, you mind giving me my note again? I'll take it easy.

• 1:42:57Speaker 00

  Hmm. Wait, I'm in the wrong key. Sorry.

• 1:43:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, D. D. Dirty D.

• 1:43:24Speaker 00

  Darkness had us covered when we split from Minnesota in the morning.

• 1:43:32Speaker 05

  In the rain.

• 1:43:36Speaker 00

  Black as I was feeling and the street was slick and shiny as a snake.

• 1:43:48Speaker 00

  Each of us was a humming tube, a half forgotten echo hanging over in the rain.

• 1:44:01Speaker 00

  Tapping time and thinking. We never had the time to take

• 1:44:13Speaker 00

  Losing air to the rising cost Living high and loving hard And leaving every yesterday behind

• 1:44:25Speaker 00

  Burning every bridge you cross It's burning down before you're off And running like the devil just in time

• 1:44:38Speaker 00

  Breaking any ties before they bind you

• 1:44:44Speaker 00

  Taking any comfort you can find

• 1:44:50Speaker 00

  Running like you're running out of time I'll take it all Take it all Till it's over Understanding When you're heading for the border Lord, you're bound to cross

• 1:45:23Speaker 00

  Good luck in women every time you stumble Waiting there to catch you when you fall

• 1:45:35Speaker 00

  Getting back to enough Let them keep you back enough You'll just perform yellow backs against the wall

• 1:45:48Speaker 00

  Breaking any ties before they bind you

• 1:45:54Speaker 00

  Taking any comfort you can find

• 1:46:00Speaker 00

  Running like you're running out of time. I'll take it all. Take it easy. When it's over. Understanding. When you're heading for the border. You're bound to cross a line.

• 1:46:57Speaker 00

  Taking any time before it finds you. Taking any comfort you can find. Running like you're running out of time. I'll take it all. Till it's over. Understanding. When you're heading for the border. You're bound to cross a line.

• 1:48:03Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:48:05Speaker 05

  That is a theme. A Norman Lear production.

• 1:48:07Speaker 03

  Right, exactly.

• 1:48:09Speaker 00

  That was fun.

• 1:48:10Speaker 05

  I feel like Roberta Flack, Ron Carter, and Ray Lucas.

• 1:48:18Speaker 00

  Thanks for doing that. I love that.

• 1:48:20Speaker 05

  Thank you, Nora. Oh, that was so cool.

• 1:48:22Speaker 00

  We're not done yet.

• 1:48:23Speaker 05

  Oh, awesome.

• 1:48:24Speaker 00

  We still got two more songs.

• 1:48:25Speaker 05

  Nice.

• 1:48:26Speaker 00

  Oh, that was great. Thanks. I love that song because his words are just always so good. And then I like how it kind of changes key center.

• 1:48:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:35Speaker 00

  What key is this in, in the end?

• 1:48:38Speaker 05

  Down D.

• 1:48:38Speaker 00

  D, yeah.

• 1:48:40Speaker 03

  Stankin' D.

• 1:48:41Speaker 05

  That's the James Brown key. Did you know that?

• 1:48:42Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I didn't know that.

• 1:48:44Speaker 05

  Everything's in D, just about.

• 1:48:45Speaker 00

  I didn't know that.

• 1:48:46Speaker 05

  Or E-flat.

• 1:48:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, it makes sense.

• 1:48:48Speaker 05

  That's Stevie key.

• 1:48:51Speaker 05

  But he cheating now. Yeah, right, right.

• 1:48:53Speaker 06

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:49:23Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 1:50:09Speaker 00

  Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with IBM's Ana Paula Assis about what digital sovereignty actually means in the age of AI. AI now moves from somebody operating a system to the

• 1:50:35Speaker 00

  Technology actually making decisions. So you have to have a much better visibility of what AI is touching, data it is accessing and where. Hear the full conversation wherever you get your podcasts. This is Jason Timp from Hoops Tonight with Jason Timp. Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which can mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:51:21Speaker 00

  Do you guys have any, um, any good stories about each other from high school that are, um, worth telling?

• 1:51:28Speaker 05

  My, my favorite one is, uh, I, so I'm going to reveal it now. You already know because I told you in the text. So we used to produce this big show every year called, it's called Sentimental Journey. It was like the whole school, you know, like the dancers, the singers, the actors, we all get together and put together this big Broadway type show. And, uh, we were of course the house band. And, uh, I mean, what a house band, me, you, Kurt and Joey and a couple of horn players.

• 1:51:58Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 1:51:59Speaker 05

  And, uh, so we had this big overture. And, um, the, at the end of the overture, we had to play New York, New York. And so we had to play a real corny. So we had to do like that. So.

• 1:52:12Speaker 00

  Kurt was in heaven, right?

• 1:52:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, right. Exactly. So we get to the, to the concert. And me and him conspiring, we're like, you know, it's in D.

• 1:52:21Speaker 03

  So wait, now,

• 1:52:25Speaker 03

  Chris, you've set up that anytime we've got sent to the principal's office.

• 1:52:30Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:52:30Speaker 03

  When any, when anything ever was like at least in D for a good eight to 16 bars, it could be Gershwin, it could be whatever.

• 1:52:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:52:40Speaker 03

  We will find a way to code talk to each other.

• 1:52:42Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 1:52:43Speaker 03

  In a way, and eventually he caught on to any reference. So it could be like.

• 1:52:55Speaker 03

  And then, you know, and then already, you know, the, the

• 1:52:58Speaker 05

  Yes, right.

• 1:52:58Speaker 03

  The kids are all like, you know, starting to dance and all that stuff and get out of here. So it was, it was our last chance to go rogue. It was like.

• 1:53:07Speaker 05

  Were you with us when we went to see the Philadelphia Orchestra rehearse? Cause they, they would have those open rehearsals.

• 1:53:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:53:14Speaker 05

  And so they were playing the Rite of Spring.

• 1:53:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:53:16Speaker 05

  There's one, you know what I'm talking about.

• 1:53:18Speaker 03

  Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.

• 1:53:18Speaker 05

  So there's one part in that piece where the, the timpani plays boom, beeb boom, beeb boom, beeb boom. Just for those two bars. You remember Stacy Dozier did, did, did, Timmy play boom, boom, boom. But she comes go, ho.

• 1:53:32Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:53:37Speaker 05

  In the middle of the Academy of Music, he's like, shut up.

• 1:53:43Speaker 03

  So we, we get to.

• 1:53:44Speaker 05

  Can't take us no place.

• 1:53:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, we, we get there that night and we're, we're, and we, we had a look like, hey, we're seniors.

• 1:53:52Speaker 05

  Yes, right.

• 1:53:53Speaker 03

  And there's only three weeks of school left.

• 1:53:55Speaker 05

  What are they gonna do to us?

• 1:53:56Speaker 03

  And what's he gonna send us to the principal's office here in front of our parents at the show? So go, go to the buildup for New York, New York. So we went.

• 1:54:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:54:05Speaker 03

  And rehearsal it was, the, yeah.

• 1:54:07Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:54:08Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:54:08Speaker 05

  So that's rehearsal.

• 1:54:10Speaker 03

  Man.

• 1:54:12Speaker 05

  We get to the concert and so, so me and him, we come, he said, hey, man, you know, we, we should do that. And so then we pulled Joey and Kurt in on it too. So, uh, so here's how the concert went. You know, all the parents.

• 1:54:25Speaker 03

  Two, one.

• 1:54:27Speaker 05

  Star Spreading.

• 1:54:34Speaker 03

  That's hot. Yo, the, the mouth.

• 1:54:36Speaker 05

  And Kurt is going.

• 1:54:41Speaker 03

  And it was only for thirty, like.

• 1:54:43Speaker 05

  And Joey's playing the organ patch on his keyboard. He screamed, whee.

• 1:54:49Speaker 03

  The look on Mr. Rogers' face.

• 1:54:50Speaker 05

  He was so angry.

• 1:54:53Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:54:54Speaker 05

  He was as red as that exit sign there.

• 1:54:56Speaker 00

  He should have been proud at your musicality.

• 1:54:59Speaker 03

  Oh, he proud now?

• 1:55:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's proud.

• 1:55:01Speaker 03

  Everyone's proud of us.

• 1:55:02Speaker 05

  He's glad we did it now, right? So I have, I found, so I had this on VHS for like the last 35 years or whatever it is.

• 1:55:12Speaker 03

  My dad shot it, right?

• 1:55:13Speaker 05

  Yes, he did. Yes, he did.

• 1:55:14Speaker 03

  God.

• 1:55:15Speaker 05

  And so I finally got it digitized. So sooner or later.

• 1:55:20Speaker 03

  Oh, God. Yeah, I was about to say, there is, there is a.

• 1:55:25Speaker 05

  Remember I went rogue on y'all when I did my James Brown routine? Because I was only supposed to sing two songs.

• 1:55:30Speaker 03

  We.

• 1:55:32Speaker 05

  We were always going rogue.

• 1:55:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:34Speaker 03

  Did we add Night Train?

• 1:55:35Speaker 05

  We added some sort of ad lib and you said, uh, the diva was, she was like, what is he doing?

• 1:55:44Speaker 05

  Get him off the stage.

• 1:55:45Speaker 03

  Nope, nope. Nah, the audience is screaming.

• 1:55:48Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 1:55:48Speaker 03

  He came out and fooled James Brown, Regalia, the wig and.

• 1:55:52Speaker 05

  The whole nine.

• 1:55:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:55:54Speaker 05

  That's when I could, I can still, that's when I could get up from a split. I can still do a split.

• 1:55:59Speaker 00

  You just can't.

• 1:56:00Speaker 05

  I just can't get up.

• 1:56:03Speaker 00

  I want to see that.

• 1:56:04Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, I'm sure you do.

• 1:56:06Speaker 03

  See, that's our version of Carlo.

• 1:56:09Speaker 00

  A Carlo.

• 1:56:11Speaker 03

  You know, I still wear that MP3.

• 1:56:13Speaker 00

  I can't believe you know that song.

• 1:56:15Speaker 03

  Yo, the amount of people, so we were on tour. This is like, this is really when like pre-social media. When like AOL chat was still a thing.

• 1:56:28Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 1:56:29Speaker 03

  You know, welcome. You got, yo, is there any more satisfying feeling than when you plugged your hotel telephone?

• 1:56:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:56:36Speaker 03

  Inside the modem and you.

• 1:56:40Speaker 03

  And it goes through. Welcome, you got mail.

• 1:56:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:44Speaker 05

  It was a great feeling.

• 1:56:44Speaker 03

  That was like, yes.

• 1:56:46Speaker 05

  You remember when they had for a short period, you could download a celebrity to say that for you?

• 1:56:51Speaker 03

  I did Morgan Freeman, yes.

• 1:56:52Speaker 05

  I had David Letterman.

• 1:56:53Speaker 00

  You had David Letterman? You, you used to IM me on AOL.

• 1:56:58Speaker 03

  Right, right. We, we were AOL pals and you sent me one of my very first MB3s I had of, of Carlo.

• 1:57:05Speaker 00

  I did?

• 1:57:06Speaker 03

  Yes, and.

• 1:57:08Speaker 00

  Were you, were you surprised?

• 1:57:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, I played everyone like, you know what she sent me? You know, it's weird. That's such a weird time period because now there's at least five other singers that did their version of Going Against Type.

• 1:57:24Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:25Speaker 03

  Mariah's another person where she made the best album of her career, but just as a joke. Because she was like obsessed with America's obsession with Hole and Courtney Love.

• 1:57:37Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:57:38Speaker 03

  So during lunch breaks or dinner breaks, she would just tell her band like, you know, just play some like ragged, you know, grunge song, whatever.

• 1:57:48Speaker 03

  But I was listening to it and I'm like, like, I don't want to insult her, but I'm like, not for nothing, but you know this is your best record, right?

• 1:57:58Speaker 00

  Wait, is this something that's out?

• 1:58:00Speaker 03

  So she wants, she's figuring out what to do with it. She did this like right when she was doing the Butterfly record. Now, if you look throughout history, a lot of the great musical decisions in music were always afterthoughts and never planned out. Like, the Isley Brothers tells a story of that they had 10 minutes left in the session and they were like, oh, let's do that church song real quick. And it was shout, you know, Tequila took three minutes to do. Like literally, there's a history of like just last minute songs. So she, she just made like 15 songs of just like, you know, I hate my life and da, da, da, da, fuck you! And all this, but it's like.

• 1:58:43Speaker 03

  It's the, I still maintain it's Mariah Carey's best moment singing ever. Because she's not being Mariah Carey, she's being free in herself.

• 1:58:53Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. There's a freedom in doing something that's not your thing.

• 1:58:57Speaker 03

  We just think it's for, so how many other just like, let's fuck around and?

• 1:59:02Speaker 05

  You got that.

• 1:59:03Speaker 00

  I do a lot of bands that aren't under my name, but that one's the furthest from my thing, probably.

• 1:59:09Speaker 03

  So the world's never just, you've never released Carlo for the world?

• 1:59:13Speaker 00

  Oh, no, it's been released. We released it.

• 1:59:14Speaker 03

  But did you clean it up?

• 1:59:15Speaker 00

  No, we released it, we released it then.

• 1:59:19Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:59:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, back then. Back in like 2004, or five, or six, or something.

• 1:59:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:59:25Speaker 00

  But we released it without any of our names on it. Because it was a tricky thing at that time. My second album was still pretty big and I, I didn't want it to be like, remember when Garth Brooks put out Life of Chris Gaines?

• 1:59:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:59:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. I didn't want it to be a joke because it wasn't a joke, it was really fun. And, but it was funny, but I didn't want it.

• 1:59:45Speaker 03

  Would you ever do it in concert?

• 1:59:47Speaker 00

  We did a bunch of gigs at the Delancey down on the Lower East Side at the time.

• 1:59:51Speaker 03

  But you, but what were people's reactions to this?

• 1:59:54Speaker 00

  We wore wigs and crazy makeup, so, which was also part of the fun for me. I got to be a character, you know? And part of it was hiding myself from the audience, but part of it was just the fun of doing that. Like, I can't imagine putting on a wig and crazy Blade Runner makeup to do a Norah Jones show because I feel like people would think I'm trying too hard to be somebody else.

• 2:00:16Speaker 03

  But never for an encore once?

• 2:00:18Speaker 00

  I love dressing up.

• 2:00:19Speaker 03

  But never for an encore once, you're like, two, three, and just go into it and the audience is like, wait, what the hell is going on here?

• 2:00:26Speaker 00

  Oh, like at a Norah show?

• 2:00:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:27Speaker 00

  Carlo? No. I feel like I couldn't do it without them, without that band.

• 2:00:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:00:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. But we kind of, we kind of parted ways eventually and. The album was released, but none of our names were on it. So it's not like anybody knew about it. Couple of people knew it was me, but it wasn't a big deal.

• 2:00:45Speaker 03

  Well, this also proves that I do know how to keep a secret.

• 2:00:49Speaker 00

  Well, now I wish it wasn't a secret because in hindsight, like it's, I'd love it. But at the time, it just felt like people would pick it apart too much. And that's not what it was for.

• 2:00:59Speaker 03

  Ah, it's like, ah, man, she's cool as shit. She sent me this rock song.

• 2:01:03Speaker 00

  Maybe we'll get them on the podcast and we'll do a reprise of it.

• 2:01:06Speaker 03

  You gotta, you gotta show the world, show the world.

• 2:01:08Speaker 05

  You know how I knew you were cool because you were tight with Brian?

• 2:01:12Speaker 00

  Blade?

• 2:01:13Speaker 05

  Uh huh. And, uh, you know, when you, when I knew that he had been working with you, he's one of those kind of people that, you know, if, if, if he can't mess with you, he, he ain't gonna, he ain't not gonna play with you.

• 2:01:26Speaker 00

  He won't return your call.

• 2:01:28Speaker 05

  Right, right, right.

• 2:01:28Speaker 00

  He won't even be mean.

• 2:01:30Speaker 05

  Right, right, right, right. He's just gonna ghost you, right?

• 2:01:32Speaker 00

  I know. He's definitely the coolest.

• 2:01:34Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, yeah. And so, uh, that's how we, that's how we connected through Brian.

• 2:01:42Speaker 00

  Recently?

• 2:01:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:01:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, but I, I mean, I've, I feel like I've known you forever, but I haven't.

• 2:01:48Speaker 05

  I know.

• 2:01:49Speaker 00

  We only played together once.

• 2:01:50Speaker 05

  Exactly. And not that long ago.

• 2:01:52Speaker 03

  Suckers.

• 2:01:53Speaker 00

  For, for Jazz House Kids, your foundation.

• 2:01:56Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:01:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, um, I had a dog bit me on the nose that morning. So I was all scared to show my nose.

• 2:02:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, but you, you killed it.

• 2:02:04Speaker 00

  It, it healed.

• 2:02:06Speaker 06

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:02:37Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 2:03:22Speaker 00

  Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:03:32Speaker 00

  Hello, hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with IBM's Ana Paula Assis about what digital sovereignty actually means in the age of AI. AI now moves from somebody operating a system to the technology actually making decisions. So you have to have a much better visibility of what AI is touching, data it is accessing, and where. Hear the full conversation wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:04:02Speaker 03

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The Odd Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or a half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. All right, so what's the next joint?

• 2:04:42Speaker 00

  Okay, so I wanted to try this D'Angelo song.

• 2:04:46Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:04:47Speaker 00

  What do you think?

• 2:04:50Speaker 00

  You wanna play Electric?

• 2:04:52Speaker 05

  Sure!

• 2:04:52Speaker 00

  I don't know, I just thought you should play it on something.

• 2:04:55Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:04:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:57Speaker 00

  And also, for this, it can be sloppy, it's no big deal.

• 2:05:00Speaker 03

  That's all I know.

• 2:05:01Speaker 00

  Um, that's all I know. You said you wanted to be more sloppy, I'm your girl.

• 2:05:06Speaker 03

  But actually, I wanna challenge myself to see if I can play it unlike the record version, so...

• 2:05:11Speaker 05

  Uh-oh!

• 2:05:12Speaker 03

  This'll be fun.

• 2:05:13Speaker 00

  Is D'Angelo's?

• 2:05:13Speaker 03

  We started, we started, so it's weird that we're here. We actually started, uh, Black Messiah in this very room.

• 2:05:23Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:05:23Speaker 03

  That album took 14 years to make.

• 2:05:25Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:05:26Speaker 03

  Like, Voodoo took five, but Black Messiah was pretty much started, eh, 2002?

• 2:05:35Speaker 00

  That's a long time to work on something.

• 2:05:37Speaker 03

  He's like molasses, man, so...

• 2:05:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:40Speaker 03

  But we didn't, we didn't do that here, I think we did Betray My Heart at Electric Lady, but...

• 2:05:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:05:45Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, just coming back to this room, I remember... Is, is this where primarily most jazz albums are recorded in this particular room that we're in right now?

• 2:05:54Speaker 00

  This is a very jazzy room.

• 2:05:55Speaker 05

  If you got a nice budget.

• 2:05:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:57Speaker 05

  The Criss Cross records used to be made upstairs.

• 2:06:00Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:06:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:06:02Speaker 03

  At Sierra Sound?

• 2:06:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:06:04Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:06:05Speaker 05

  Actually, no, there's, there's a few records I, I made upstairs.

• 2:06:09Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:06:09Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:06:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I've done a bunch here, but you, you guys both worked with D'Angelo on...

• 2:06:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, pretty much, um...

• 2:06:21Speaker 05

  Thanks, thanks to him, I got a piece. A little, a little tiny shillikins.

• 2:06:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, at, at Electric Lady, I'll, I'll say that, you know, probably some of my most adventurous escape moments, like, my chance to not be a root and just to figure out what else is out there.

• 2:06:43Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06:44Speaker 03

  Like, his projects allowed me to do that, and then subsequently, once that record came out, then anything else I worked on, like Common or Erika or Blau or that sort of thing, like, that's kinda how the, uh, what they call the Soulquarian era.

• 2:06:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:00Speaker 03

  Like, started, but, yeah, man.

• 2:07:02Speaker 00

  That's cool. That's how you grow.

• 2:07:05Speaker 05

  I got a what if.

• 2:07:07Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:07:07Speaker 05

  So there's two what ifs, speaking of D'Angelo. You probably noticed, D'Angelo told me that um, he initially had, well, he was gonna go to VCU in Richmond, where he's from, to study jazz piano with Ellis Marcellus.

• 2:07:23Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 2:07:24Speaker 05

  The year he graduated high school was the year Ellis retired from VCU. So he was like, well, if I can't study with him, I'm not gonna study jazz. So I always wondered, had Ellis Marcellus stayed one more year?

• 2:07:38Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 2:07:39Speaker 05

  Who knows, D'Angelo might have been the piano player in Roy Hargrove's Quintet.

• 2:07:43Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 2:07:46Speaker 03

  Ellis, man, he give me nightmares. He looks at me, "Look at you, you look like a rock drummer,

• 2:07:54Speaker 03

  playing all that rock." "Why is that snare so tight?"

• 2:07:57Speaker 05

  "Oh, really?"

• 2:07:58Speaker 03

  Aw, man, he roasted me, man, like on the news.

• 2:08:02Speaker 05

  "Why is that snare so tight?"

• 2:08:03Speaker 03

  He said, "Why is that snare so tight?"

• 2:08:04Speaker 05

  "After he played with James Black and Idris and all them cats?"

• 2:08:08Speaker 03

  Nah, man, he's heartbreaking.

• 2:08:11Speaker 05

  Oh, and another thing, here's a what if, this came back to haunt him.

• 2:08:17Speaker 05

  In 2001, I started touring with Sting. And so there was a bunch of different drummers in there. Manu Kechay was first, then um, Abel Borell Jr. came in for a spell, and Vinnie Collyer came in. So it was like a bunch of different cats coming in. And so Sting said, "Hey, I got a string of gigs. Who you like playing with? Who can you recommend?" I said, "You need to get my man, Amir." He's like, "Oh, I'm not familiar." So I gave him the Philly Experiment.

• 2:08:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:08:47Speaker 05

  And I gave him a couple of Roots records. He was like, "Oh, that guy, yes, yes." So I gave him the recordings, never heard nothing. I said, "Well, okay, okay, I ain't gonna, you know, I ain't gonna pry. You Sting, you know who you want."

• 2:09:02Speaker 05

  Fast forward 10, maybe even 15 years later. You finally play with him.

• 2:09:09Speaker 03

  We were Sting's house band for almost like all of 2010.

• 2:09:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, and then I see him somewhere. He's like, "Oh, man, you know Questlove, right? He's amazing." I was like, "Man." I'm not gonna tell you what I said on the microphone. I was like, you remember a long time ago, you asked me about drummers? That's who I was talking about.

• 2:09:33Speaker 00

  He didn't put it together.

• 2:09:35Speaker 03

  He didn't put two and two together. He did not put two and two together.

• 2:09:38Speaker 05

  Like, can you imagine had we played in Sting's band together?

• 2:09:41Speaker 03

  That'd been crazy.

• 2:09:42Speaker 05

  Every breath you take would have sounded a lot different.

• 2:09:45Speaker 00

  It would have sounded like a James Brown song. Is it indeed?

• 2:09:47Speaker 03

  You know what's weird though?

• 2:09:49Speaker 05

  We'd have put indeed.

• 2:09:50Speaker 03

  He's so, he's so triggered by Stuart's playing. Again, this is me being-

• 2:09:55Speaker 05

  Oh, gosh, yes.

• 2:09:56Speaker 03

  This is me being a shapeshifter.

• 2:09:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:09:58Speaker 03

  That when I played with him.

• 2:10:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:10:00Speaker 03

  He instantly knew and he stopped the song.

• 2:10:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:10:03Speaker 03

  He says, you can't.

• 2:10:04Speaker 05

  Don't do that. Exactly.

• 2:10:05Speaker 03

  You can't what? He says, I know you worship the police, but-

• 2:10:09Speaker 05

  Right. Don't play none of that.

• 2:10:10Speaker 03

  Don't play like Stuart. It triggers me like you don't know.

• 2:10:13Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 2:10:14Speaker 05

  That's very true.

• 2:10:15Speaker 03

  So I had to undo.

• 2:10:16Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:10:17Speaker 03

  I didn't know how to play like anything, but you know, my regular-

• 2:10:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, right.

• 2:10:24Speaker 03

  Like all, you know, Stuart's tricky stuff.

• 2:10:26Speaker 05

  Had we played in Sting's band, everything she does is magic. Every little thing she does is magic would have been halftime. Every little-

• 2:10:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:10:41Speaker 00

  That's great. That would be great.

• 2:10:43Speaker 03

  Give me a G.

• 2:10:54Speaker 03

  Wait, is this, this is notated in like a real or a fake book?

• 2:10:58Speaker 00

  What?

• 2:10:59Speaker 03

  Betray My Heart?

• 2:11:00Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:11:01Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:11:01Speaker 03

  Oh, I was like, wow, he really made it. I-

• 2:11:05Speaker 00

  Oh, you thought I picked it out from a fake book?

• 2:11:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was like so proud, like whoa.

• 2:11:09Speaker 05

  No, no, no. We just made some little-

• 2:11:11Speaker 00

  No, I just thought the album was great.

• 2:11:13Speaker 03

  You understand. I literally was like, wait a minute. Something I had to do with, literally, is in a fake book right now?

• 2:11:18Speaker 00

  Maybe, maybe it is. Maybe it is. Honestly, this is a great song.

• 2:11:22Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:11:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:03Speaker 00

  As the day must have its sun And the night must have its moon Sure as both must rise and fall I'll be there to see you through Just as long as there is time I will never leave your side And if you should ever feel That my love is not sincere I will never betray your heart I will never betray your heart I will never betray your heart

• 2:12:58Speaker 00

  Like the breeze that blows into I will whisper to keep you cool This I swear, in with all this too I'll take nothing in place of you

• 2:13:17Speaker 00

  When you're feeling down, down, down You must know you can depend on me You don't ever have to feel That my love is not sincere I will never betray my heart I will never betray my heart

• 2:13:40Speaker 00

  I will never betray my heart

• 2:13:53Speaker 00

  Through the storm, through the rain, I'll come running to ease your pain. Like the rails across the train, like the blood in my veins, I will never betray your heart. I will never betray your heart. I will never betray your heart.

• 2:17:03Speaker 03

  See, that's the fun part, the danger. We don't know where he's going.

• 2:17:05Speaker 00

  That was so dangerous for me.

• 2:17:07Speaker 03

  See, that was awesome.

• 2:17:09Speaker 00

  I think it was great. That was fun. That is a hard ass tune to play. But it's so good and the lyrics are so beautiful.

• 2:17:18Speaker 03

  This is the first time I've heard them in the English language.

• 2:17:25Speaker 03

  I'm playing B, I'm playing D, I love you, man.

• 2:17:28Speaker 00

  Man, it's a great song, though, and it's hard to play.

• 2:17:32Speaker 03

  I'm sitting in a photo of this right now.

• 2:17:35Speaker 00

  Tell him I love him.

• 2:17:39Speaker 03

  He'll love it.

• 2:17:42Speaker 00

  I don't even know where one is in that song.

• 2:17:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, you do, B.

• 2:17:46Speaker 00

  No, I don't need, I don't, if I think about it, I don't know where it is.

• 2:17:54Speaker 00

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  Hear the full conversation at ibm.com/smarttalks or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:20:40Speaker 05

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• 2:21:18Speaker 00

  Thanks, you guys have been super generous with your time.

• 2:21:21Speaker 03

  Thank you, Nora. I appreciate this. Any chance to play my brother and to play with you?

• 2:21:26Speaker 00

  Oh, that's cool. Yeah, no, I agree.

• 2:21:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:21:28Speaker 05

  No joke, no joke.

• 2:21:30Speaker 00

  Honestly, I would have loved to do this with either of you separately, but I just knew it would be more fun together.

• 2:21:35Speaker 05

  Oh, well, I mean, I never get to play with my man that much.

• 2:21:38Speaker 00

  I know. I'm so glad. Thanks for doing this. Y'all are special.

• 2:21:41Speaker 05

  Thanks for having us. You are special.

• 2:21:43Speaker 00

  See you soon.

• 2:21:44Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:21:45Speaker 05

  Sure enough.

• 2:21:57Speaker 04

  These guys are such a blast.

• 2:21:59Speaker 00

  They're fun to listen to talk.

• 2:22:00Speaker 04

  I love that they have so many inside jokes. It's like they have their own language.

• 2:22:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, they do.

• 2:22:05Speaker 04

  Talking, but also musically, they have inside music jokes.

• 2:22:08Speaker 00

  Well, I started a text thread with them when we were trying to get together for this. And that alone is like the most inside. I was just like, okay, I don't know what's happening here. Because they were just firing back and forth.

• 2:22:19Speaker 04

  Explain, yeah.

• 2:22:20Speaker 00

  They got their nicknames for each other. I don't know what's happening.

• 2:22:24Speaker 04

  That's the history, man. But we got a lot of good stories.

• 2:22:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:22:28Speaker 04

  And great music.

• 2:22:29Speaker 00

  So fun to hear Amir Questlove, whose name is Amir, do the drum lesson.

• 2:22:36Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. The breakdown.

• 2:22:37Speaker 00

  The breakdown.

• 2:22:38Speaker 04

  The analysis.

• 2:22:38Speaker 00

  All the different drummers. That was amazing. And just playing with Christian on the bass is, it's insane, actually. He's insanely amazing. That was a dream. And I wish we had just done two days.

• 2:22:52Speaker 04

  I wish we had recorded it.

• 2:22:53Speaker 00

  I wish we had recorded it.

• 2:22:54Speaker 04

  Wait, we did.

• 2:22:56Speaker 00

  Ooh, I got some words wrong.

• 2:22:57Speaker 04

  But if you want to look up the right words.

• 2:22:59Speaker 00

  But if you want to look up the right words, here's the songs we did. We started off with "Fine and Mellow," an old jazz standard from 1939, written by my favorite, Billie Holiday. "Why Am I Treated So Bad," a song by Pop Staples, and recorded many times by many different people, including the Staples Singers and James Brown, among others. We did "Say No More" from one of my albums, "Pick Up Me Up." Pick up me up. And that song was actually written by me and my Oda, Sarah Oda. You wrote that song. We did "Borderlord," a song by Kris Kristofferson from 1972. Songwriters on that are Steven Bruton, Donny Fritz, Terry Paul, and Kris Kristofferson. I love that song, by the way. And that's an amazing album.

• 2:23:43Speaker 00

  The last song we did was "Betray My Heart" from D'Angelo's 2014 album, Black Messiah, on which Questlove was a collaborator. Thank you so much for listening. We had a blast. Hope you did, too. Don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast if you're able to. If you're kind, be kind.

• 2:24:00Speaker 04

  If you like us. Actually, even if you don't like us.

• 2:24:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, just like us.

• 2:24:05Speaker 00

  Special thanks to Questlove and Christian McBride for joining our podcast. We'll be back next week with Lucinda Williams. Norah Jones is playing along as a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Norah Jones. This episode was recorded at Seersound in New York by Stephen Sacco, assisted by Jasper Leach, Maximilian Tropey, Tanner Wallace, and Andrew Kohinka. Mixed by Jamie Landry, edited by Sarah Oda. Additional recording by Matt Marinelli. Audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler. Artwork by Eliza Frye. Photography by Shirven Lenez. Produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runthog. Marketing lead, Queen Anaki.

• 2:24:51Speaker 00

  If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country, talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 2:27:02Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast.

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  Guaranteed Human.