Mike Campbell

GRAMMY-winning guitarist, songwriter, and founding member of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Mike Campbell joins Norah with stories from his decades of making music. He talks about his first guitar and his new book, Heartbreaker, while Norah shares how his music soundtracked her life. Hear the legend himself on a couple of his classic songs. Recorded 10/14/25. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Mike Campbell.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Hi. I'm Norah Jones, and this is Sarah Oda.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Hi.

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Welcome to our show.

• 1:39Speaker 00

  Welcome.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  We have an amazing episode today. We have the legendary, Grammy-winning, rock and roll Hall of Famer, lead guitarist, and primary co-writer for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers for over 40 years, Mike Campbell.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  You're so excited.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  I know, I know. He was also in Mudcrutch, and he's currently the frontman of Mike Campbell and The Dirty Knobs, whose latest album, Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits, features guests like Graham Nash, Lucinda Williams, Chris Stapleton, and Ben Montench.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  We also want to mention that Mission of Mercy, the fourth album by Mike Campbell and The Dirty Knobs, releases June 12 via Soundly, 30 Tigers.

• 2:19Speaker 03

  He's also the author of the 2025 memoir, Heartbreaker, which offers insight into his life story, the band's history, his deep friendship and creative process with Tom Petty. And now, this New York Times bestselling memoir is also available on paperback. Be sure to get a copy, because the stories are endless.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  His stories are amazing.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  As you shall hear.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, we got a few of them for the show, but the book is pretty awesome. Yeah, it was really fun.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. You're gonna hear about how he got his first guitar from a pawn shop. You're gonna hear about how he met his wife. And also, the hardest part about writing a book, which isn't writing it.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Stay tuned.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  This was really fun, and I'm so excited that he did the show. Mike Campbell, please enjoy.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  There is some spicy language in this episode, so listener discretion is advised. It's not that bad, but just so you know, it's there.

• 3:25Speaker 04

  I haven't been in the studio in a long time. I always work at my house.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Brings back memories.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, how long have you had this studio in your house?

• 3:35Speaker 04

  Since I got the house. It's just part of it, yeah.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  30 years?

• 3:40Speaker 04

  Got it in 81.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  I think we moved in. It was uprated here and there along the way, but yeah, I like having a home studio. It's all set up. I don't have to move the drums around, or bass is plugged in, guitars are set up.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  It's so much easier, right?

• 3:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I work on the music. Forget moving the mics, forget the sound. The sound's already there. Drums, they're all on.

• 4:05Speaker 04

  Bass, no dicking around, excuse me.

• 4:09Speaker 04

  No messing around with sounds and just, you know, it's a man cave.

• 4:15Speaker 00

  That's great. It's nice to have that.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  I love it. Yeah, a lot of people do that now. But I haven't been in a proper studio in quite a while.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Really?

• 4:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, we used to always work in places like this.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, would you just stay for weeks, months, days? How was the recording process back in the day?

• 4:33Speaker 04

  Well, we used to work a lot at Sound City, which is out in the valley, and it would be months, you know, five days on a snare sound.

• 4:41Speaker 00

  Wow, really?

• 4:41Speaker 04

  Oh, ridiculous. Jimmy Iovine was nuts.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  That's a lot.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Okay, now we got the snare sound, now let's work on the bass drum. And let's work on the guitars for three days. Try every amp in the world and move it around this part of the room, that part of the room. Okay, oh, the snare sound changed, let's work on that again. And two weeks later, okay, go guys!

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that would drive me bonkers.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm not even in the mood to play now.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 5:07Speaker 04

  What's wrong? Why doesn't it sound good?

• 5:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, but then it was great.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  And then Duck, Don, you know, the great bass player, he came in one day when we were in that process, and, oh, sorry. And we were being pissy with each other about, well, you're speeding up. No, you're out of tune, whatever. And it doesn't sound right. And he's just looking at us, you know, he has this pipe, you know, and he's, you know he is, right?

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do. And I've seen him. I can see the visual.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. He said, "I never heard five guys play real good sound bad."

• 5:39Speaker 04

  Perspective, right?

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 5:41Speaker 04

  It was such a great thing to say. It's true, you know, let them get the sounds together. Quit pissing around with it, just play good.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's all that matters.

• 5:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, really, in the end, yeah.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. Wow, you have so many great stories, probably, and they're all in your book.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, after 75 years, there's lots of stories.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 6:01Speaker 04

  Can't believe it.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  There's a couple things in your book that I did want to ask you about. And that was, of course, meeting Tom Petty. You met him in Jacksonville?

• 6:13Speaker 04

  No, Gainesville.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  In Gainesville. That's where you were going to school.

• 6:17Speaker 04

  College.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  College.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  The story of how you ended up at college is pretty special.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, that kind of got me misty a little bit, remembering the guidance counselor.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a really emotional story.

• 6:30Speaker 04

  Going down there. I know it's pretty, set me on a path, you know? And it's funny, after I was researching the book and I told the story, we tried to find her. Because I had never seen her again, and she had passed away, but I would love to have said, "Thank you for my life," you know?

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  Never got a chance to.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  She called you into her office?

• 6:50Speaker 04

  Mrs. Collier was her name, yeah, she, the guidance counselor, just to say, "What are your plans?" You know, "Well, I guess, I don't know, maybe I'll go to junior college or get a job." She's looking at my grades, she goes, "No, you need to go to University of Florida." And I said, "I can't afford that." And she said, "Well, what does your dad do?" I said, "He's in the Air Force." She said, "Just wait here." She got me an Air Force Society loan, college loan, through my dad, and signed me in to the University of Florida and sent me down to Gainesville where I met Tom. So she, I owe her a lot, you know, and I never got a chance to thank her, but she knows.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  So special, she must have known. She must have known. How special, though. Like, that's such a beautiful story.

• 7:32Speaker 04

  It is. It's heartwarming. There's a lot of stories like that in the book. When I meet Marcy and then you meet Tom, and all through there, it's like, you know, these gifts of gratitude from, and all the songs that came, I don't know where, why I was so lucky, but I had a lot of blessings.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  For a guitar player.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  It's nice to be able to reflect on it. Was writing the book hard?

• 7:58Speaker 04

  No, it was easy. The audiobook was a bitch.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Because you had to read it all?

• 8:03Speaker 04

  No, I didn't have to write anything. I just talked to my co-writer, Ari Surtal, and he would tape it and he would go back and put it into form. I would just talk, memories and share, "Oh, yeah, I remember this happened, blah, blah, blah." That was easy.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:17Speaker 04

  "Okay, now the book is written. Now you're gonna go and sit at a microphone, you're gonna read it." You know, and you gotta kind of perform it a little bit, you know, you gotta be up for it, and, "Oh, I missed a word, do it again." It was like, it took like, days and days to read this stupid book. That was a lot of work.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  And you're like, "I already did it."

• 8:36Speaker 04

  By then, I was already sick of it, you know? The last thing I'm gonna do is sit here and read it out loud, but... You'll probably do a book someday, you'll see.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  Audio book is hard.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know about that, maybe someday.

• 8:47Speaker 04

  I never thought I would either.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 04

  They kind of taught me into it.

• 8:50Speaker 00

  It's nice.

• 8:51Speaker 04

  I'm glad I did it, the grandkids will be happy to have it.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  It's beautiful. And the stories.

• 8:57Speaker 04

  Are we interviewing now, or are we just talking?

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, we're just doing it.

• 9:00Speaker 04

  Oh, we're going?

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 04

  I thought this is like a pre-chat.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  No, this is it.

• 9:03Speaker 04

  Oh, okay. Because I started to say, we'll save that for the interview.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  No, we're doing it. Yeah.

• 9:08Speaker 04

  Look at you, yeah, great.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  When you met Tom and you started playing together.

• 9:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Were you, you guys were already writing music, or were you doing old covers?

• 9:19Speaker 04

  I was, he was beginning to write songs. He was in a country band, it was kind of like the Burrito Brothers. And I was in kind of a blues jam band. And I saw his band play, and I, I thought they were good because they had, they were doing short songs with choruses. And I was in a band that just started blues and jam for minutes. I thought they were cool, and they caught, they, my drummer got called for an audition because they, they needed a drummer. Long story short, my drummer and I were living in a farmhouse, and he brought them out to audition for them. It just turns out they had lost their guitar player. And so they said, well, we need, we used to have them two guitars. And he goes, well, there's a guy in the back that plays, you want to try him out?

• 10:04Speaker 04

  And I'm back there in my short hair and my cutoff jeans, and one t-shirt that I owned, and a little Japanese guitar. And he came, Mike, you want to come out and, and try out for this band, or meet these guys? I said, sure, sure. You know, they were cool, they had, Tom had long hair, they both had long hair, Tom Lennon and Tom Petty, and, you know, they were, had cool clothes and good instruments. He had a hopener bass, and I walked in with this little Japanese guitar, looking like a total geek. I could just see their faces like going, oh no.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  With your shorts?

• 10:34Speaker 04

  Oh, when do we get this, when do we get this guy out of here?

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Oh, man.

• 10:37Speaker 04

  And so we played a little bit, and he went, oh, okay. And then Randall, my drummer, says, Mike, why don't you do Johnny B. Goode? Because you know that. And I said, do you guys know Johnny B. Goode? And they go, yeah. So I, I knew it really well, so I kicked it off, and we rocked it through. And it got to the end, and Tom looks at me, and he goes, I don't know who you are, but you're in my band forever.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 11:02Speaker 04

  And it turned out to be true.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 11:04Speaker 04

  So, it was kind of another serendipitous moment. But we hit it off right away. He was beginning to write songs. I was diddling with ideas. I wasn't really tuned into the craft of writing that well, but I was trying. He was already getting like full-on formed songs. And some of them were pretty good, you know, he was just getting into it. But we connected right away, like we'd known each other. We had the same influences. We had the same dreams and the rest is history.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 11:37Speaker 04

  Oh, thanks.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  It's special to find that in this life, right?

• 11:42Speaker 04

  My book is really, it's about gratitude, you know? I'm very grateful, all the blessings that dropped in my lap, you know? I've been very lucky and blessed and I don't know why, but I'm happy that these things happened. But it's interesting, like you talked about the guidance counselor and then meeting Tom, of course, then meeting my wife and things that happen in your life. And you come to a moment and you can go left or right. This person can lead you that way or you can decide to go this way. And it establishes the path of your whole life, that choice. And that's happened to me a lot, you know? And fortunately, I made the right choices, I think. And life is mysterious that way.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  It is.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So that's what the book's about. It's just like, you know, how your life can, you know, follow a certain path that you go along and that defines your history.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  And if you go on a different path, it becomes something else.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, if I hadn't met my wife or if I hadn't met the guidance counselor that day, I might have ended up working at a gas station in Jacksonville and playing in a bar band and becoming a high school teacher. I don't know what would have happened, you know? You wonder about that.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  I bet you would still have gratitude somehow. I don't know. You have that energy about you.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  When you think about your life, you know, I'm sure the same is to you. If you hadn't decided to be a musician, what would you have done?

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  Who knows?

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Who knows? Such a wild thought, right?

• 13:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, we'll never know.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  We'll never know.

• 13:12Speaker 04

  That's the way it is, yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 05

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  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before

• 14:57Speaker 00

  the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  Well, one of the songs we talked about doing, If You Still Wanna Do It, was "Listen To Her Heart."

• 15:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, my history with this music is, you know, I've loved Tom Petty since forever, and I've loved the band. And I also met my husband on this Tom Petty tribute show. You know, the Best Fest? You sang with them once on a Stones Fest, I think.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  I don't remember.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Anyway, it's this group of friends that does all these sort of tribute nights. And we did a Tom Petty one for maybe five or six years together. And I met my husband on one.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  Where, in New York?

• 15:53Speaker 00

  In New York. So, there's a lot of...

• 15:56Speaker 04

  So, you kind of owe us.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  I owe you, big. I also, just like this music, it means so much to me for so many years, through so many things. So, when people tell you that, like, it must feel... Do you take it in? Or do you sort of, like, brush over it and act modest?

• 16:15Speaker 04

  The one I like is... Of course, I'm very grateful. And I can't... Sometimes I look around and go, "How did I get here?" But the one I love is when somebody will come up who is very moved by the music and it affected their life. And they played "Here Comes My Girl" at their wedding or whatever. And they come up and they're all excited. And they go, "Your music is the soundtrack of my life." And I go, "Mine, too."

• 16:37Speaker 00

  That's really sweet. I like that.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  You know, that's the way I look at it.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  That's nice. So, "Listen To Her Heart," do you remember the story of this song?

• 16:47Speaker 04

  "Listen To Her Heart" was our second album. And Tom was just beginning to really come up with good songs. Our first album, of course, had "Break Down, American Girl" and some other things. He was finding his way, and his songs were getting good. Second album, he brought "Listen To Her Heart" in.

• 17:07Speaker 04

  What I remember most about it, I love this song, and we cut it pretty quick, but we didn't have a 12-string. We couldn't afford a 12-string. We're in the studio. And it was a birds-type song.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  So you wanted it.

• 17:18Speaker 04

  And they cried out for a 12-string, you know? And so I went and got a 12-string for 120 bucks, which is now worth $100,000. A little rick and backer. And we used it on that song. So that's the first song we actually used a real 12-string on it. And that's what I remember about it, because it's got that kind of birdsy riff. And it's simple. It's a simple song.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is.

• 17:43Speaker 04

  You know, direct. And a lot of our songs are, you know, boy, girl. There's trouble, but it's all gonna work out, you know? As long as there's redemption at the end, it's okay.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:55Speaker 04

  And that's one of those. She's gonna listen to her heart.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  And tell her what to do.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  I like it.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  She might need a lot of loving, but she don't need you.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  It's like middle finger.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  I know.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 18:06Speaker 04

  That kind of thing, you know? Tom was good at that.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you feel like trying it?

• 18:11Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  All right.

• 18:13Speaker 04

  Let's see if we can do it.

• 18:16Speaker 04

  Listen to her fart.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  How many times was that joke made?

• 18:20Speaker 04

  Just now.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 18:21Speaker 04

  I lie.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  You guys, come on.

• 18:23Speaker 04

  I lie through my teeth.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  You guys put that on the setlist, didn't you?

• 18:25Speaker 04

  Or Stan, I'm sure. Okay.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  You want me to think that I'm being used. You want her to think it's over. Can't you see it doesn't matter what you do? Buddy, you don't even know her. She's gotta listen to her heart. It's gonna tell her what to do. She might need a lot of loving, but she don't need you. You just can't creep up behind her.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  Man, you can't understand that she's my girl. She's my girl.

• 20:32Speaker 04

  You've gotta listen to her heart. It's gonna tell her what to do. She might need a lot of loving, but she don't need you.

• 21:12Speaker 04

  Something like that. I forget the ending. That was okay, funky.

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:18Speaker 04

  Funky but chic.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Funky but chic. I felt the energy.

• 21:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I did too.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 04

  But that's good, that's real. We're not making a record, we're just having fun.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. That's fun.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  Okay, Nora, well done.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  That's fun. Here, I'm gonna move back over here.

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• 22:35Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 23:20Speaker 00

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• 23:30Speaker 00

  When did you start playing guitar? How old were you?

• 23:32Speaker 04

  I was fifteen or sixteen. We couldn't afford a guitar. My parents were divorced and my mom was struggling to raise our, me and my brother and sister. And I kept begging her for a guitar because I saw The Beatles and I went, "I'm gonna do that," you know? And then one Christmas, she scraped together fifteen bucks and got me a Harmony acoustic at a pawn shop. It was unplayable, but I didn't know. I tried to learn on it and my fingers would bleed. But I started on that and eventually, my dad sent me a Japanese electric, which I told earlier about when I met Tom. This is what I had. It was like a little Goya, Goya Tone it was called.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  It wasn't too bad of a guitar, but then later on, I got a Strat and then a Firebird and a Rickenbacker and a Guild and a Gibson and then I've got hundreds of them.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 04

  But back then, I couldn't afford one. I couldn't afford strings either, so when the strings went dead, I would take them all off and put them in a hot, boiling water, pot of boiling water, and boil them for five minutes.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  What?

• 24:42Speaker 04

  And then take them out, put them back on, and they were bright again.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  What?

• 24:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, it worked.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Did somebody tell you to do that?

• 24:47Speaker 04

  No, I just figured it out. I'm smart.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  You are smart. I would have never thought to do that.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  But, you know, it didn't last long. It stayed bright for about thirty minutes and then they'd go dead again.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  Ah, okay.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  But I couldn't afford a new one, so that's what we did.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Wow. Do you still have it?

• 25:04Speaker 04

  I don't have that guitar. No, it's probably firewood somewhere for somebody. It was a piece of crap.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  Do you have the Japanese one?

• 25:13Speaker 04

  The Japanese is a good story. I don't have, I think I gave it away when I got my Strat. I gave it away to a friend. But I was talking about it in an interview once and the Japanese fans read it and they went and found an exact clone of that guitar and mailed it to me on my birthday. Can you believe that?

• 25:30Speaker 00

  That's so sweet.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  So I have that one, which is really precious.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Really?

• 25:34Speaker 04

  It's the exact same guitar, but...

• 25:35Speaker 00

  That's so sweet.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, yeah. Thank you, Japan.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. I love Japan.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  When you guys toured, did you just tour everywhere all over the world? Or were you mostly in the States?

• 25:48Speaker 04

  Well, we started out in the States. Our big break was when we went to England, opening for Nils Lofgren. Our first album was out, it wasn't doing anything. In the States, we were opening, we might play a bar on or on, but mostly we were opening for people like Jay Goll's band, or some Bob Seger here and there. Kiss, we opened for Kiss once, which was a funny story in the book. I won't go into that. But then we got this, in England, for some reason, the English press, which is kind of unique, they liked our record more than America. So we got a tour over there, opening for Nils Lofgren. And the press just loved us. They built us up into the hot shit that year. And then we came back to America after that, nothing.

• 26:34Speaker 04

  The glory was over, you know? But there was a little bit of a buzz that built from that. So then we eventually ended up playing all around the world. I mean, we never went to South America, but we've been to, you know, pretty well, or China, we never went there. We've been to Australia, and Japan, all over Europe. But mostly, over the years, we stuck to the States, in Canada.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, the life, the touring life.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  Pounded a lot of stages with my boots over the years.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  I saw you guys at the Hollywood Bowl, maybe 20 years ago.

• 27:08Speaker 04

  That's the big time.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was pretty great.

• 27:11Speaker 04

  I love the Bowl. Have you ever played there?

• 27:13Speaker 00

  I played there once.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  Isn't it great?

• 27:14Speaker 00

  It was beautiful.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love that spot.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really beautiful.

• 27:17Speaker 04

  Lot of history, too. That was actually the last show I played with Tom and the Heartbreakers, was at the Hollywood Bowl, as it turns out. 2017, it was our last show.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  That was it?

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I met him shortly before that, at the Music Cares event. That was the only time I met him.

• 27:35Speaker 04

  Yeah?

• 27:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 04

  Did you like him?

• 27:37Speaker 00

  I mean, it was so brief. He was very nice.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  He was a nice guy.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  I blubbered something, you know? I don't remember, I blacked out a little.

• 27:46Speaker 04

  I'm sure he loved the attention.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  He was, yeah, he was sweet. So many stories. Any particular one you'd like to tell from the book? That you find fun to tell? I don't want to give the book away, but it's kind of nice to hear you tell them.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  Give it away, yeah. Well, there was, of course, my wife. There's a great story. I'll tell that one.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 28:06Speaker 04

  That's kind of sweet. So I'm in LA and I'm in this band called Mudcrutch. Our record deal fell apart. We didn't know what we were doing. And they stuck us all, the whole band, in a house out in Canoga Park. I was sleeping on a mattress, you know, I had one little box for my table in the room. Pretty low rent. Anyway, it was Halloween and one of the guys said, "We're going to a Halloween party. There's gonna be lots of chicks there. You gotta come." And I'm like, "I don't, I don't feel like going out." And they kept begging me. I said, "Okay," you know, I went along. So we went to this apartment and, of course, there was one girl and six guys.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  And so I walked in and thought, "Oh, right, I should've stayed home," you know. So I went in the other room. I'm sitting there and there's a knock at the door and my future wife Marcie comes walking in. It was a Halloween party, but nobody was really dressed up except her. She had a saloon girl. And she had her dog with her, Medina. And I kind of saw her from a distance in the other room. So her dog came over to me. Medina came over and tuned in to me. And I like dogs, but this dog was just like, "C'mon."

• 29:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  I'm connected and I'm like petting the dog and we're having this moment. And then Marcie walks up and she goes, I go, "Is this your dog?" She goes, "Yeah." And I said, "I think she likes me," you know. And so she sat down and we talked for like an hour or whatever, just, you know, like you do when you first meet somebody. And so I drove back that night to my other, to the band house. The next morning I woke up and I thought, "Wow, that, I really liked her, but I don't have no way to get in touch with her." So I took a chance and I drove back to, in my foggy brain where I thought the apartment was. It was on the second floor of some apartment complex. And somehow I remembered which room it was. I went to the door. Her friend's name is Marcia.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  And I knocked on the door to ask Marcia for Marcie's number, right?

• 30:08Speaker 04

  And so Marcia opened the door and she's on the phone. And I go, and she goes, here. She was talking to Marcy, who was saying, that guy never asked me for it.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Aww.

• 30:20Speaker 04

  And I don't know how, who he was, or how to get ahold of him.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  And then you knocked on the door at that moment?

• 30:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, isn't that crazy?

• 30:25Speaker 00

  That is crazy.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  I'll tell you, that's what my life is like. Things just happen. And so it, you know, it was meant to be.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  And then we connected and, you know, in December, it'll be 50 years together.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  That's incredible.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  So that's kind of, you know, brought together by a dog. And we now have a lot of dogs in this part of our life. But I love telling that story. It's so unique.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  It's a great story.

• 30:46Speaker 04

  And the timing is like magic, you know?

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 04

  Ain't that right, Marcy?

• 30:54Speaker 00

  50 years, that's nothing to sneeze at, that's...

• 30:56Speaker 04

  Especially in this business.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  That's amazing. Yeah, with all the travel and...

• 31:00Speaker 04

  I'm very proud of that, yeah.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you got kids and grandkids?

• 31:03Speaker 04

  We still like each other.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  It seems like it. You have a good vibe.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 06

  See website for details.

• 32:08Speaker 06

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• 32:38Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 33:23Speaker 00

  Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  We were talking about doing this Don Henley song, Heart of the Matter?

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wanted to ask, how did you get hooked up with him? Was he just on the scene? You started writing with him maybe on the previous album, I think?

• 33:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, that was Jimmy Iovine, who was producing Tom and the Heartbreakers at the time. And Jimmy and Tom came by one day to my studio. And Jimmy loved the songs that I gave to Tom. When he heard Refugee and Here Comes My Girl, he said, "We don't need any more songs. I don't care what you do in the rest of the record. If you got the two heads, that's all I care about." Which were, you know, it was my music. So he came over with Tom to hear if I had any new songs. And I had this demo for Boyz II Men on a little four-track.

• 34:24Speaker 04

  And they listened to it and they passed on it. What was interesting about it is the demo I had, the chorus went to a minor chord, which I didn't really like that much. And when they went to the chorus on the demo, they all went, eh, kinda jazzy. And I said, yeah, you're right. So anyway, they left and I thought about that. And then Jimmy called me and he said, I just spoke with Don Henley and he's looking for songs. Do you have any? I said, maybe that song that you showed me might be good for him.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  And I said, well, what kind of, does he want a rocker or a slow tone? He wants the image maker.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  I'll get right on it.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've never heard that.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  So I went back and I thought, you know, that, I could change that chorus into a major chord. So it lifts up, as "Boys of Summer," "I can see you," goes to a major chord instead of staying in the dark chord. And so I changed that in my little demo and then I went over to Don's house and met him and played it for him. And I had never met him before, so I went into his kitchen and he had this big, long table. He sat at one end, I sat at the other end.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Like the Middle Ages?

• 35:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, like that. And so I gave him the cassette and he put it in. I went and sat at the other end of the table. And he sat like this.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  Didn't move. And I thought he hated it. So I said, okay. And he finished and he said, I'll get back to you. I put his shoes, he was like, thanks, but no thanks.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  And then I got in my car and said, well, it was interesting. He didn't like it. And then I got a phone call and he goes, I've just written the best song of my life.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  To your demo. And he said, I want to record it right away because I'm finishing my album, my second solo album. And that's how we met. And that began a relationship. So later on, he was working on another album and he called me again and said, do you have any songs? And I had this little piece of music that turned into "Heart of the Matter," which I gave to him. And that's how that came about.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  That's pretty cool.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, crazy.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  That is crazy. This song, I remember when it came out and I loved it then.

• 36:33Speaker 04

  Well, thank you.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Listening to it again today, I'm just, it's such a moving song.

• 36:41Speaker 04

  The lyrics are very powerful.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  They're very powerful. And I was thinking about myself, listening to it as a kid. And it's such an adult song lyrically. But as a kid, I loved it.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  It's deep, yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  And I felt like I had a glimpse into how hard it was gonna be to be an adult somehow. There's, you know, there's something about it that takes it all.

• 37:05Speaker 04

  I remember Don telling me after we did that song, he said, "I had to live 30 years to be able to write that song."

• 37:11Speaker 00

  It's such a beautiful song.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  To have to live through those experiences, to have those feelings, and understand that kind of relationship, I suppose.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  For sure, but as a kid, I still understood the song somehow.

• 37:22Speaker 04

  Well, there's, you know, songs are like that, you know? Even if you don't know all the words, there's a spirituality or an aura about certain songs that just connect.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 04

  It might be the music and the melody, or sometimes it's the lyrics. When you get all three, you're really lucky. But that song has an aura about it of hope, I think.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  For sure. But I mean, it also has such a rich story in it.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, the words are incredible. You're always lucky to get that.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, really. Well done. Beautiful song.

• 37:55Speaker 04

  Wow, thank you very much. I think so.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, you feel like doing it?

• 38:00Speaker 04

  You wanna do it?

• 38:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, you wanna do it? Let me move to the back to the whirly.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  I hope I can remember these words too.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a word salad.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  It is. Word salad.

• 38:12Speaker 04

  Okay, two, three, four.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  I got the call today. Didn't wanna hear, but I knew that it would come.

• 38:35Speaker 04

  Some old friends of ours were talking on the phone, Said he'd found someone.

• 38:46Speaker 04

  I thought of all the bad luck and trouble we went through. Now I lost me and you lost you. What are these voices outside love's open door? They could throw off our contentment and beg for something more. I'm learning to live without you now.

• 39:15Speaker 04

  But I miss you, baby. The more I learn, the less I understand All the things I thought I'd figured out. Learning again. You're trying to get down to the heart of the matter, But everything changes and my friends seem to scatter, But I'm thinking about forgiveness. Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  These times are so uncertain. There's a yearning undefined and people filled with rage.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  We all need a little tenderness. How can love survive in such a graceless age?

• 40:23Speaker 02

  The trust in self-assurance that lead to happiness. The very things we all kill, I guess.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Pride and competition. Fail these empty arms. And the work I put between us, you know it doesn't keep me warm. I'm learning to live without you now.

• 40:53Speaker 04

  But I miss you, baby. The more I know, the less I understand. All the things I thought I'd figured out. Learning again.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  Trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But my will gets weak.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  And my thoughts seem to scatter, but I think it's about forgiveness. Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Oh, there are people in your life who've come wrong. And let you down. Oh, you know, they hurt your pride. You better put it all behind you, baby, 'cause life goes on. Keep carrying that anger. It'll lead you up inside.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Baby. Been trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But my will gets weak. And my thoughts seem to scatter, but I think it's about forgiveness.

• 42:10Speaker 04

  Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me. Trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But my will gets weak.

• 42:25Speaker 04

  And my thoughts seem to scatter, but I think it's about forgiveness. Forgiveness, even if, even if you don't love me anymore.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  Aw, that was nice. What a beautiful song, though. I mean...

• 43:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  It's pretty good. I never really get to do that.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was interesting, because in the book, you talk a little bit about the bass pedaling notes. I love that, the change you were like... So, does the walk up?

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  That's really important.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  I call that a Brian Wilson chord.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  Where the bass is a different note than the root.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 43:30Speaker 04

  I like those kind of things.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  I know you do, and I've noticed it, and it's cool.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  It's like a real voice leading, like, it almost comes from classical music, I think.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 04

  Well, I did, I tried to get into music school in college, but I couldn't read good enough, so they kicked me out.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  But I took music history.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Oh, cool.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  And I had this great teacher, Mrs. Henderson, who played cello, and she would talk about the theory of pedal point.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  And like, I used that a lot, I didn't realize, like, an American girl, dang, dang, dang, one note up high as the chords change underneath.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 04

  That's a nice thing to do. And the other thing, which I picked up from Beethoven and Brian Wilson, of all people, is having the bass chords be in the third or the fifth.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  And not always on the root. It creates a nice suspension to the song.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  I love it, yeah. I like that, and I like that you clued me in, that that was important, because I knew it, but I forgot it.

• 44:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love the way...

• 44:31Speaker 04

  But it kind of makes that song, because of the notes going up, and then instead of going back, it goes to the E. It's mysterious, like, ooh.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like...

• 44:41Speaker 00

  It's also kind of reminds me of gospel music and church music.

• 44:43Speaker 04

  Yes, gospel, yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Very church.

• 44:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love Brian Wilson. He, his chords and his compositions are just genius.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 44:53Speaker 04

  I listen to him quite a bit.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  Try to emulate him when I can.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 44:57Speaker 04

  But, um, cool.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Well, this was really fun.

• 45:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. Thank you, Nora.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  Thanks for doing this.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  Thanks for inviting me. It's nice to meet you. You got a nice aura.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  You too.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Okay, cut the mics. I'm gonna tell her a dirty joke.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Tell me a dirty joke now.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  I love that song. That brings me back to like, serious sixth grade.

• 45:25Speaker 03

  1989.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Okay, fourth grade. He's such a sweetie.

• 45:29Speaker 03

  He's amazing.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's funny.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  He's very funny.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was great. Thank you, Mike Campbell. If you want to know what songs we did, we did "Listen to Her Heart," which is of course, the classic Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers song from, you're gonna get it, released in 1978, written by Tom Petty, and Mike Campbell played lead guitar on it. The second song we did was "Heart of the Matter." It's a song he wrote with Don Henley for the album End of the Innocence from 1989, and they wrote it together with J.D. Souter. Special thanks to Mike Campbell for joining us today. We'll be back next week with Brandy Younger. Norah Jones is playing along as a production of iHeart Podcasts. Visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while

• 46:14Speaker 00

  you're there. I'm your host, Norah Jones. This episode was recorded at Westlake Studios in Los Angeles, California, by Thomas Warren, assistant engineer Danforth Webster, backline tech Jason Moser, mixed by Lamy Jandry.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  This episode was mixed by Jamie Landry. That's his new nickname now.

• 46:38Speaker 03

  Lamy, when he's being lame. All right, Lamy.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  I'm sorry. You gotta keep that in. Audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler. Additional recording by Matt Marinelli. Creative consulting by First3. Artwork by Eliza Frye. Photography by Shirvin Lanaz. Produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers, Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runthog. Marketing lead, Alison Cantor-Greber.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 48:13Speaker 00

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