Jason Isbell

In this episode, Norah sits down with Jason Isbell, the GRAMMY winning singer songwriter known for his raw storytelling, heartfelt lyrics, and southern rock roots.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 2:17Speaker 00

  This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Nora Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there.

• 2:25Speaker 05

  Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and today I'm playing along with Jason Isbell.

• 2:29Speaker 06

  I'm just playing along with you. I'm just playing along with you.

• 2:43Speaker 05

  Hey, I'm Norah Jones. With me as always is Sarah Oda.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  Hello.

• 2:46Speaker 05

  Welcome to the show.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Jinx.

• 2:51Speaker 05

  I like your jacket.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Thank you. It's fresh from Japan.

• 2:54Speaker 05

  It's lovely. We have an incredible episode today. We're joined by Jason Isbell, the Grammy-winning singer-songwriter who you may know from his time with the Drive-by Truckers or from Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit. His latest album just came out this year. It's a new solo album called Foxes in the Snow, which is a stripped-down acoustic album that really features his raw vocals. It's very intimate and heartfelt, very beautiful album.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  It's a very beautiful album. We had fun playing songs from it. And yeah, I just loved hanging with him and playing music. We've met before, but we never got a chance to really interact much. So it was very fun.

• 3:34Speaker 05

  In this episode, you're going to hear about his on-screen film debut, about navigating how to write a love song, and what kind of manicure he likes to get.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I forgot about that.

• 3:46Speaker 05

  And as always, we have great music coming up, including a really great surprise of a cover that you do.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  Cover surprise.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  So stay tuned.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Here she is, our episode with Jason Isbell. Enjoy.

• 4:00Speaker 05

  Hey, you want to play a song?

• 4:01Speaker 07

  Let's do a song. Yeah, let me. You want me to count it or just start playing?

• 4:06Speaker 05

  Oh, just start.

• 4:19Speaker 07

  Started out like it always starts Try to hold the hunger back You don't anticipate a broken heart Can't see nothing but the trap A diamond earring in a Bowery bed You kicked your shoes across the floor Do you regret the things that went unsaid? Or have you heard it all before?

• 4:47Speaker 07

  Eileen, you should've seen this coming sooner Do I mean to be alone for all my days? Eileen, you thought the truth was just a rumor But that's your way

• 5:13Speaker 07

  And it ended like it always ends Somebody crying on the phone Tell each other you could still be friends But you both know you're on your own My own behavior was a shock to me I never thought I'd have the nerve I hope you're sleeping through the night, Eileen I hope their grading all occur

• 5:42Speaker 07

  Eileen, you should've seen this coming sooner Do I mean to be alone for all my days? Eileen, you thought the truth was just a rumor But that's your way

• 6:28Speaker 07

  Somebody broke my heart once. I was useless for a week. I didn't leave my apartment. I didn't eat, I didn't sleep. Then I found a letter she wrote against the wall behind the bed. It said "Forever is a dead man's joke." That's the only thing it said. I even should have seen this coming sooner. Do I mean to be alone for all my days?

• 7:10Speaker 07

  I even thought the truth was just a rumor. That's your way. That's your way.

• 7:36Speaker 07

  That sounded good.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  That was so pretty.

• 7:38Speaker 07

  I think it was really good.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's interesting, because I, you know, your songs, I'm dying to sing harmony all over the place. But they're so intimate. On this record, it's all solo, right?

• 7:51Speaker 07

  The whole thing.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, and also I think there's something about certain lyrics that can be hard to have two people on.

• 7:58Speaker 07

  That's true. Sometimes it feels weird to have a second voice in there.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  It does, but I just, I had to do it.

• 8:04Speaker 07

  How do you, yeah, no, I want you to do it.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  I had to do it.

• 8:07Speaker 07

  They've heard the version that just has me on her. They can find it easily. So if we're gonna do something, let's do it.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  I had to do it, but, um, yeah, it was like, it's such a tender song and such a, you know, seems... Like a lonesome lyric.

• 8:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think so. It's it. Where do you? Where do you put the line? Because it's tough for me to choose. Like, I want to put harmonies on everything.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  Me, too.

• 8:30Speaker 07

  I grew up listening to harmony vocals and like studying like David Crosby and Mike Mills and, you know, Everly's and all this stuff. And I want it. I want to put it on everything. And then I hear it and I think that's way, that's way too much harmony vocal. That's like putting too much seasoning on a dish.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  Too many ingredients.

• 8:48Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. It's, it's, it's a tough line.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  I think you can usually tell after you do it. If it's, you know, overdubbed or, or, you know, you rehearse it. You can tell where to leave it eventually. And then, once you put it in, it's like the magic blossom.

• 9:05Speaker 07

  It's so perfect.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  Right?

• 9:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's so perfect. I remember like, for some reason, that was one of the things. I think maybe when I was a kid, I just thought that I was going to sing harmony and play guitar.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Really?

• 9:15Speaker 07

  I didn't realize I was going to be singing lead vocals on anything. And so that's what I listened to super closely. And, and I remember certain moments like, like on, like time after time. That harmony vocal is one of the best harmony vocals.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  It's kind of angular.

• 9:32Speaker 07

  It is. And it sounds like Elvis Costello.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  A little bit.

• 9:35Speaker 07

  But it sounds like, you know.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 07

  But then it's like, I remember also like You're So Vain, like Mick on You're So Vain. It's basically just unison. He's not even really singing harmony, but it's so perfect.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 07

  You know, I remember trying to figure out why. What is it that makes one harmony part better?

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Well, it's like the whole Gillian Welsh, David Rawlings thing.

• 9:56Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  I'm always singing along a third part when I'm listening to them. But the truth is, it's much cooler when it's just two of them.

• 10:03Speaker 07

  It's true.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  And they find these weird sevens and like, they don't pick to, you know, Dave doesn't always do a typical harmony.

• 10:11Speaker 07

  No, he never does a typical harmony.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  He'll do like a weird line and then it'll go low, lower than her and then higher than her. And it's like, it's just more special.

• 10:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, it is. And it's like, and I feel like it's rewarding for those of us who, you know, build music for a living or take it that seriously. But also for people who don't and just listen, they think this is weird in a good way.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, they don't. He told me a really cool story once about, I think, Time the Revelator. He said that somebody sent a comment online about how his guitar was out of tune because it was dissonant and he was playing this weird like.

• 10:46Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. He's doing that.

• 10:49Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  He was doing that and he just got such a kick out of it.

• 10:53Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  They didn't understand that it was actually correct, but supposed to be weird. They just thought it was out of tune.

• 11:00Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, probably being that old Olympic, it probably was also out of tune.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Probably.

• 11:06Speaker 07

  But that's not what they were hearing.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 11:08Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, he does. He came and sat in with me on some solo shows in Nashville. You know, I feel like sometimes like he starts from a point of like, this is not good. I don't want this to make perfect sense. And I'm going to figure out how to get back down the lamb into the tree.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 07

  And it makes me so happy.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're right. I can kind of picture that.

• 11:30Speaker 07

  It's like, it's like I'm going back for the tree, but you know, I'm not going to start from a typical spot.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 07

  It's so nice because it never sounds superfluous that way. It's always like, okay, this is here for a reason. And it doesn't always land. Like when I try to do that, it does not land half the time. But he's just really good at it. He's really good at doing like chromatic

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 11:53Speaker 07

  falls and walks and landing on that third or landing somewhere where it's like, oh, now I'm comfortable.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  It's like a cat on a ledge.

• 12:00Speaker 07

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it is.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:03Speaker 07

  Yeah, he's so good.

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  This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

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  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

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  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me, at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 13:42Speaker 03

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• 14:33Speaker 00

  Tell me about your guitar.

• 14:34Speaker 07

  This guitar is, it's a Martin. When I was in Oklahoma filming Killers of the Flower Moon.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Very cool, by the way.

• 14:44Speaker 07

  That was very, thank you. That was really weird.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  I bet.

• 14:49Speaker 07

  I just don't do that. And we were in the pandemic and I was like, well, I can't tour. And. So I asked my agent if I could get like auditions or something.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Oh, really? Okay. So you were proactive about it?

• 15:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, I wanted to say like if somebody's got a set where they're testing and filming a show or a movie now might be the time. And, um, you know, I got an audition and I got called back and I'm like in my house, you know, in, in the bedroom with my laptop, you know, just like with Marty and, and DiCaprio like on the Zoom and I'm terrified.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  That's hilarious.

• 15:23Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I finally wound up getting it and getting out there and no clue what I was doing. Just, you know, but I just told everybody, I don't know how to do this. So tell me how to do it and I will do my best. And they're like, oh, okay. That's refreshing. It, it, you know, delayed proceedings some days, but most of the time it was fine.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  That's great. What a great experience.

• 15:43Speaker 07

  It was nuts. Yeah. But Martin sent me this because I needed a little acoustic to bang around on.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Oh, because it's small and travelable? Okay. I see.

• 15:53Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I was having to go back and forth between Oklahoma and shows because they, it, um, the scheduling was a massive event around that.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. It's, it's not your time.

• 16:05Speaker 07

  No, not in any way.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  That's what's hard for me, the, the few times I've done things.

• 16:11Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  It's just, I'm so used to being in control of my time.

• 16:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, me too. And that is not, you're going to get dressed up and sit there for nine hours.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  In makeup and an uncomfortable outfit.

• 16:21Speaker 07

  Very uncomfortable. And, you know, we were outdoors in Oklahoma and so it was like the weather.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  Brutal.

• 16:29Speaker 07

  Yeah. It was either really, really hot or, um, like De Niro hurt himself and had to go get surgery. So it kind of pushed everything back a few weeks. And, um, then we wound up in storm season. So I was just in the trailer.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 16:46Speaker 07

  Waiting, you know, dressed up in suspenders and old riding boots and my hair slicked back and sitting there playing this guitar. And, but I did write most of an album that way.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  The new album?

• 17:00Speaker 07

  Um, the one before it, Weather Veins. I wrote almost that whole record.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Weather Veins.

• 17:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, I know. I just, when I said that, realized that the weather was a big reason for that. Um, but yeah, I wrote most of that record out there in that trailer, dressed up like a horse repairman.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  That's amazing. But this isn't what you used on the new record?

• 17:23Speaker 07

  No, on the new record, I used an old guitar that is currently in New York, that's been in New York since I got it. I got it at RetroFret here in Brooklyn. I just called Sheeran, I was like, I need a little Tiny Martin for the apartment here. And I wound up writing and recording Fox's, a new record, all on that guitar, the whole thing. I just went into Electric Lady and...

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Oh, you did it here?

• 17:51Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 17:52Speaker 07

  And...

• 17:53Speaker 00

  Just you and the guitar?

• 17:54Speaker 07

  Just me and the guitar.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 17:55Speaker 07

  And Geena Johnson, who engineered and co-produced it with me. And a bunch of microphones. And my best friend, Will Welch, he came in and filmed and hung out. You know, there's a few people that I can handle just having in the studio all the time, and he's definitely great for that.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 07

  You know?

• 18:16Speaker 00

  I've still never let... This is weird for me, having cameras anywhere.

• 18:20Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, but...

• 18:22Speaker 07

  Do you normally just have, like, somebody hitting engineering and...?

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Oh, I need an engineer for sure.

• 18:27Speaker 07

  I need an engineer too. That makes me feel better.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't do any of that, but like, the filming thing, now everybody wants to film everything. I get it, I just...

• 18:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, me too.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  I get a little stiff.

• 18:37Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, me too, me too.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. But that's cool.

• 18:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was great. And he was like, why are you doing this at Electric Lady? So it's like an acoustic...

• 18:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, you could do it in a barn somewhere.

• 18:49Speaker 07

  Yeah, but I was like, well, where are the rest of the studios in the village? Where you can make a good sounding record and everything works and you're not waiting all day?

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 18:58Speaker 07

  So I wanted to go into a studio in the village with a guitar and a notebook and make a record. That was the point.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  That was kind of romantic, was it like a romantic idea of the old times?

• 19:08Speaker 07

  I think so. I think I, I think I put those... That's about the only time I'll allow myself to go by those rules, those sort of romanticized rules.

• 19:16Speaker 00

  I think that's good.

• 19:17Speaker 07

  I think that's the whole point of having studios, because if not, you know, I could just do it at home or in somebody's basement or something. And to me, if I'm gonna go into a studio, I want to feel the pressure of what's happened here before.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  Ah, yeah, yeah. You do feel a little bit more heightened with the, yeah, you're paying for it.

• 19:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, which helps the budget. It really...

• 19:36Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 19:37Speaker 07

  That's the only reason I put pressure on myself, is so the bank does it.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  But there is something to be said for having a deadline. I mean, a lot of people work better that way. It's almost like having a deadline. Going to the studio, that is.

• 19:51Speaker 07

  Kind of have to make your own. You know, luckily, I have to make my own restrictions.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:56Speaker 07

  You know, because I don't have a label. Like, I have my own label. So I kind of say, okay, I want to go make a record this month.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 20:03Speaker 07

  And put it out that month and that kind of stuff.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 20:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's nice. It's really nice. Unless something goes wrong.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  And then I can't turn around and yell at anybody.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  You're responsible.

• 20:14Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, but I like it. I started it with Southeastern, which was like my first big sort of record. And so that all lined up really, really nicely.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  That's very lucky.

• 20:26Speaker 07

  Very lucky.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Because the timing of it, you know.

• 20:28Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, it was very lucky.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Big labels are not where you want to be anymore.

• 20:33Speaker 07

  No. And it's, yeah, I don't know. I don't even know what the formula is, what the plan is now.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I'm still on a label. I love my label, but, you know, sometimes I'm not sure what the better way would be because I have an experience going out on my own. But I think for you and your level of how you operate is probably perfect.

• 20:59Speaker 07

  I think it's great for me.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's great.

• 21:01Speaker 07

  Because I don't even, like, I'm not always looking to grow things, you know.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  You're feeling pretty good.

• 21:08Speaker 07

  I'm fine. Yeah, like, I'm fine. I like to be able to hear myself and have good gear and travel as comfortably as possible. And outside of that, it's like, you know, I don't need more, more, more. I'm not going to retire and

• 21:23Speaker 00

  No.

• 21:23Speaker 07

  Stop doing that.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  Can you imagine?

• 21:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, what would that be? What would that even mean?

• 21:27Speaker 00

  That would be really hard.

• 21:28Speaker 07

  It would be so, I'd be worse than Elton. Like, he's retired half a dozen times in the last two years.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 07

  And I would be worse than that. I would just

• 21:36Speaker 00

  I'm back.

• 21:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  I am back.

• 21:39Speaker 07

  It's all a reunion tour. I'm reuniting myself. My own molecules are reuniting for another tour.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  Well, I think that's the great part about this job is you don't have to retire.

• 21:49Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  You don't have to tour anymore. But you can still play and record or do local stuff.

• 21:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 07

  And we were never silly rock stars, so it's not going to look dumb.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Speak for yourself.

• 22:01Speaker 07

  When we're 60.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I think we're good.

• 22:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, I'm not talking about like, like, level, like, you know, like, you're a big deal.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  No, I was joking.

• 22:11Speaker 07

  But you didn't have your foot up on the monitor, wearing like spandex and...

• 22:16Speaker 00

  Definitely not.

• 22:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, and that means at some point, you're gonna have to pivot.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  You're gonna have to hang up the spandex.

• 22:22Speaker 07

  Or retire, yeah, yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Or adjust.

• 22:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, or adjust.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Adjust your spandex. Maybe a larger size.

• 22:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's either adjust the size, or you're just gonna be adjusting the whole time you're on stage. All right, what should we do next?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  You wanna do Foxes in the Snow?

• 22:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, let's do that, let's do that.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  This is the title song of the record.

• 22:44Speaker 07

  It is, yeah, this is the title track. And a strange song for me, because...

• 22:49Speaker 00

  It is.

• 22:50Speaker 07

  It's just different, you know?

• 22:51Speaker 00

  It's cool.

• 22:52Speaker 07

  It's really different.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 22:53Speaker 07

  It's a little bouncy.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 07

  And also, I kinda had to let go of

• 23:04Speaker 07

  the idea of just being metaphorical and songwriterly and just say things that I wanted to say and play the guitar and sing with them and think, let's take all the context out, let's take the ego out, let's take the preconceived idea of what I'm supposed to do as a songwriter and just make a song happen.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Is that not you, is that hard for you to let all that go?

• 23:26Speaker 07

  I don't think it will be now, cuz I've done it.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  But in the past, it was?

• 23:30Speaker 07

  But in the past, yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Really?

• 23:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, there was this kind of like, well, if I can't provide reachable insight with these lyrics, then I'm not doing my job. And it may have been true at one point.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Okay, can you explain reachable insight?

• 23:45Speaker 07

  Like...

• 23:46Speaker 00

  Does that mean like relatability? Or it's more, the story you're telling is true?

• 23:51Speaker 07

  Oh, well, it reveals something

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 23:54Speaker 07

  in the lyric about the process. And by reachable, I mean... Not necessarily obvious, but also able to be found by the average listener.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  You're not hitting them over the head with it, but it's pretty much all there for them to gather.

• 24:12Speaker 07

  Yes, yeah, there are the clue, the mystery can be solved with the information provided.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  And you're not being overly cryptic.

• 24:18Speaker 07

  Right.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  And you're not like trying to hide every, every detail.

• 24:21Speaker 07

  Yes, or being vague, or like running from anything.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  That's something I had to learn, because in the beginning, I, I didn't know how to write songs at all. And then I started and I tried to take all the eyes out of the song.

• 24:33Speaker 07

  Uh huh.

• 24:34Speaker 00

  I was, tried to be very, you know, vague, and then I was like, that's not very soulful.

• 24:40Speaker 07

  Right, no, it's not, yeah, it's not.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 07

  The, the soulful stuff to me is the, like, the details that are, for whatever reason, you're reluctant to include them, either because they're too much, or too revealing, or makes you cringe, or because you think this is not going to apply to everybody. That's where I really hit something, I think.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  It doesn't matter if it applies to everybody, you have to let that go, is that what you're talking about?

• 25:09Speaker 07

  Well, I, over time, I started valuing the strength of the connection more than the width of the connection.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:18Speaker 07

  So it was like, this may not hit, you know, a thousand people, but the 10 people it hits are going to think I know a secret about it.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 25:27Speaker 07

  And that's more fun for me.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 07

  You know, because that's what I latched on to about songs. It's like, oh, how does this apply so accurately to my life?

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:37Speaker 07

  And sometimes that would be a detail or a lyric, but sometimes it would just be a moment. Like, I remember listening to songs, and, you know, because I'm not going to relate to Booker White or Robert Johnson, but I was a 10-year-old kid in Alabama listening to this. But there would be a feeling created in just a little section of that song that I would think, oh, this is very specific to me, you know?

• 26:01Speaker 00

  That's the beauty of it.

• 26:03Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, and that's it, that's the real thing, and I've never... You know, like, big, bombastic, like, pop ballads that are aimed at every living human being, never hit me in that way.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  They're too broad.

• 26:19Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 07

  And I admire the craft of it, and I think some of them are fantastic, you know? Even some of the big, like, commercial, like, when I listen to Faithfully, the Journey song, Faithfully, you know that song?

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, of course, you're on the road.

• 26:33Speaker 07

  Yes, I'm like, well, this is, but this is specific to him.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  Very specific.

• 26:37Speaker 07

  Now, there was a window in time when you could write a, like, "I'm sad on the road as a rock star" song, and people, everybody would be like, "Yeah, that's my life, too." It's like nowadays, you couldn't get away with that, I don't think.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  That's funny, I had a bus, my first bus, I was 23, very first bus, it kept breaking down, but the driver was real sweet. He asked me at the end of the run to record that song for his wife.

• 26:59Speaker 07

  Really?

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:00Speaker 07

  How sweet is that?

• 27:01Speaker 00

  It was really sweet.

• 27:02Speaker 07

  Oh, I love that.

• 27:04Speaker 00

  He was just talking about it. I don't think it ever happened, you know?

• 27:07Speaker 07

  I bet it never happened.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  No, I didn't, I didn't get a chance, but it was like...

• 27:10Speaker 07

  I was just thinking that did not happen.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  It did not happen. I should have done it, but it was like, he was asking us, we were taking our suitcase off the bus, literally, and it was just a crazy time, but...

• 27:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  I thought it was sweet.

• 27:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, it was very sweet. It's a very sweet idea.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 07

  That's, I think that's maybe like the first song I learned to play on piano.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Really?

• 27:27Speaker 07

  It's a jam. We ready?

• 28:18Speaker 07

  I love my love, her golden hair. I like to picture her alone when I'm not there. I like her friends, the ones I know. They leave drops of blood like foxes in the snow. And all the bees beneath her bed, she defeats and leaves her dead and falls asleep inside my head. Seems so easy.

• 29:02Speaker 07

  I love my love, I love her bite. I like the way she disassembles me at night. I love her will, and I love her sin. I like the carrot, but I really like the stick. For all the boys I could have been, all the fights I didn't win, to put me here against her skin, she can see me.

• 30:29Speaker 07

  I love my love, I love her hands. I love the way she sees the trial inside the man. I love my love.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:59Speaker 07

  That was fun.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  That was fun.

• 31:00Speaker 07

  That was really good.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 07

  That was really good. I don't know that I've ever played that song with anybody else.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Well, I would assume not because you just put this album out, right?

• 31:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's pretty recent.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  And it's all solo?

• 31:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, and I've been working some of the songs up with my band.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  You have? Okay, I was wondering about that.

• 31:18Speaker 07

  But that one, I haven't, we haven't done that one yet.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a little different.

• 31:22Speaker 07

  It is different.

• 31:23Speaker 00

  A little saucier.

• 31:24Speaker 07

  It's very saucy.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 07

  You get too many people, it's too saucy, it's too much sauce.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's got the kind of groove where you add too many people, it gets a little kitschy.

• 31:32Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  But it's not like that.

• 31:34Speaker 07

  Right, if it's by yourself, you can get away with a lot by yourself. You start adding funky drums and it's like...

• 31:40Speaker 00

  It can get a little...

• 31:41Speaker 07

  This is not hot at all.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  Exactly. It is a hot song. It's sexy. It's kind of a hot song. I was gonna say that.

• 31:48Speaker 07

  Thank you. You know, honesty, I think, can be really hot, but it's, it's, there's a risk. You gotta risk to be hot in a song or in any, you gotta risk something.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  You gotta not be trying to be hot, too.

• 32:00Speaker 07

  No, you can't be trying to be hot. You gotta be trying not to fall on your face and embarrass yourself.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 07

  And then it just kind of happens, but that's the tough part. It's like, there's all these little micro fears when I'm writing these songs, and I just kind of learn to welcome them and say, "Oh, this is the chance to make something good happen."

• 32:21Speaker 00

  That's good, because I, you know, I've been reading up and listening to interviews, and I feel like people really have this ownership over lyrics these days, and for some people more than others. And for you, I feel like it's a lot.

• 32:38Speaker 07

  It can be a lot.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  I feel like people really take what you're singing about and make it the word, you know, make it the truth, the gospel of truth. When it's like, songwriting is this whole push and pull of all that stuff.

• 32:52Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you can pick from anywhere.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 07

  You know, and it's, it's, it's such a... Like almost a mixed media kind of thing.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 07

  It's like, well, this happened to me, but this happened in a bar. I heard somebody behind me say it and it has nothing to do. And the pieces of that.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  But people think it's all you all the time.

• 33:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, they do.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  That must be, I mean, I would get in my head if it was like that. I don't feel like that about it. I don't think anybody holds me quite to the fire like that.

• 33:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe not. I mean, it's, you know, it started with that damn confessional songwriting in the seventies.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 07

  And which the people who made it hated that term. And everybody was like, oh, she's a confessional songwriter. And she's like, I'm not confessing to you. I'm making stuff rhyme, you know? And, um, yeah, I don't, I think that also really limits some people's ability to become songwriters.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:50Speaker 07

  Because they don't realize, you know, like I remember hearing, uh, when I was little, my mom loved John Prine and, and so she would play John Prine records for me. And I got later on, you know, after I'd started doing this, I got to be friends with John and we played a bunch of shows together and he's just.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  How special.

• 34:09Speaker 07

  Oh, it was unbelievable. I mean, really nothing better about this job than getting to meet somebody like John and spend time with him. And, uh, but I remember when I was a kid, hearing Angel from Montgomery, my mom listening to it and she was listening to his version. And I remember thinking like, oh, he's not an old woman. That first line, you know? I am an old woman. And I'm like, he's not an old woman. And then the light bulb hit and it's like, oh, it can come from anywhere. And you can use any version of yourself or any, just pick and choose anything. And like movies and, uh, books are not arranged that way. They're all like, is this documentary or not? Is this fiction or nonfiction?

• 34:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 07

  And for us, for songs and for visual art, it can be any combination.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 07

  And I love that, but people don't accept. People think that it's all straightforward about you.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  And that would drive me nuts, but I, I'm glad you can get out of it and, and just be able to do it the way it's meant to be done, which is. Wild card.

• 35:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  You know?

• 35:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  It can be anything.

• 35:19Speaker 07

  And it's not gonna matter.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:21Speaker 07

  If the, if the songs live five minutes longer than I do, it won't matter.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:25Speaker 07

  Cause nobody's looking back and saying, you know, what was going on in this person's life when they wrote this, you know, what, what exactly was happening to Zevon when he wrote Desperados Under the Eaves? Like, you don't wanna know the answer to that story, first of all.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  I know, that's kinda what I think sometimes, like, I don't think anybody wants to know some of this.

• 35:47Speaker 07

  But most of mine is, you know, very simple and straightforward, story-wise. If I just sat and wrote about my life all the time, I would've run out of stuff a long time ago.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 07

  You know, cause most of my life is, is pretty boring nowadays, and I like it that way, I like to keep it that way.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Simplicity is good.

• 36:07Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 07

  I think so.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's like, I was, I was diving in and we were texting and I told you, I, I got inspired to, to write this line, "What I'm saying here is between me and this song."

• 36:20Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  And I thought that was so funny.

• 36:22Speaker 07

  Yes, yeah, and it's good, cause that is the charac- that's who the characters are.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and, and it's also between you and the song.

• 36:29Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  But it might not be, it's not a triangle.

• 36:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  And, and how, what was the next line? It was the, "However you take it, can never be wrong."

• 36:40Speaker 07

  Uh-huh.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Cause it's, it's like, when you're listening to music, you take it how you want, and you believe what you want, and you personalize it, and everybody internalizes the songs as them.

• 36:52Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  You know, and the best is when they, it's about them.

• 36:56Speaker 07

  Yes, yes.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Honestly.

• 36:57Speaker 07

  And when they really, truly feel it.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's like, kids love The Beatles, but they don't know, you know, what "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" meant.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 07

  To them when they wrote that.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, kids these days love Pink Pony Club.

• 37:11Speaker 07

  Yes, right?

• 37:13Speaker 00

  My kid doesn't know what that's about yet.

• 37:14Speaker 07

  No, I, yeah, I don't know if mine's caught on to that one yet or not, but she has listened to it a lot.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I love it, too.

• 37:21Speaker 07

  What a beautiful bunch of songs.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  I love her, yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 07

  They're amazing.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  I'm really in, I'm all in.

• 37:26Speaker 07

  She's so good. And I saw her at Bonnaroo last year and just nailed every note. Just like the vocals were just beautiful and perfect and the band was so good and it was a real.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would take my, my kids this year if she comes through.

• 37:41Speaker 07

  I mean, I think that, that, no matter how ribble to that message is, it's a very positive one. I know what got me.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  I agree, yeah.

• 37:48Speaker 07

  The line in Is It Hot to Go? Where she says, "You like magic? I've got a rabbit and a wand." And my daughter's singing along with that and I'm like, she thinks this is just about pulling a rabbit out of your hat and having a magic wand.

• 38:07Speaker 07

  And I was like, I'm glad she doesn't know how good that line is yet, you know? But it still works for, if you're just visualizing pulling a rabbit out of a hat or, you know, you get a little older, you're like, oh, that's a very good line, that's hilarious.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  Pulling it out of, um, anywhere.

• 38:24Speaker 07

  I keep it in a hat, that would be really weird.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  That's too funny. Well, it's like the double meaning in all those children's movies that are the best ones that, that have something for the grownups, too, you know?

• 38:36Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, she's great.

• 38:39Speaker 07

  Or Shel, Shel Silverstein, of course, you know?

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Oh, it's the best.

• 38:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, I still, I sit and cry reading those books to my kid.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:47Speaker 07

  Everybody talks about the giving tree, but the missing piece just whoops my ass.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, Missing Peace is, is a good one.

• 38:53Speaker 07

  It's so heavy. When it's like the piece fits and then decides it doesn't want to be the piece, I'm like, ah!

• 39:01Speaker 00

  It's heartbreaking.

• 39:02Speaker 07

  Mercy's like, what is wrong with you, Dad? It's like, I'm having feelings, I'm having a feeling.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, you'll know someday.

• 39:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, no kidding, you will, yeah.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:37Speaker 03

  North Dakota, all loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Chic. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

• 40:14Speaker 04

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life, regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me, at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  Hey, this is Mario Lopez from All Mario Lopez Daily Podcast. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops, while Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at traded. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota.

• 41:34Speaker 07

  Let's go places.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  This is an old song, huh?

• 41:38Speaker 07

  Vampires?

• 41:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. How old is this?

• 41:41Speaker 07

  It was, I guess it's getting close to 10 years, maybe?

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:46Speaker 07

  For me, that's pretty old.

• 41:49Speaker 07

  And it was, like, I was going to the studio on Monday, and I had, you know, record done in my mind. So I was, like, watching Hoarders. You remember that show, Hoarders?

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:59Speaker 07

  That, I went through a little phase where I watched that. It made me feel so much better about-

• 42:03Speaker 00

  I think we all did.

• 42:04Speaker 07

  My desk being a disaster. And Amanda, my wife at the time, she said, "You need to be writing a song." And I was like, "I've got the, I've got the record done." She was like, "Just get off your ass and work." And I was like, "Okay." So this, so I started out from the perspective of like, "What is it about love songs that I don't like?" And it's so hard, I think, to write a love song until you just find an angle. And, uh, because there's just so many of them. But I was like, "What is it I don't like?" So I started off with, "It's not..."

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:42Speaker 07

  "It's not..."

• 42:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 42:43Speaker 07

  "It's not." And it's like, "No, it's actually not the way that you look in that dress." It's not the, you know, by the time I got to the chorus, it's like, "Oh, it's because I'm going to die."

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 42:56Speaker 07

  "That's why I love you." Because if I was not gonna die, I would say, "Well, we'll get around to this." Like, there would be no risk. The time is such a huge risk. And, uh, and then I had, then I had a song, you know?

• 43:09Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 43:10Speaker 07

  But it started, I got really lucky with it because it just started out like, kind of grumpy, like, "Oh..."

• 43:16Speaker 00

  I don't want to write a song.

• 43:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  I'm gonna watch Hoarders.

• 43:18Speaker 07

  Yeah. And then I was like, "Well, what is it about songs that I hate? Let's see." And then I got to the chorus and I was like, "Oh, [BLEEP], it's because we're limited."

• 43:25Speaker 00

  I like that way of thinking about writing a song.

• 43:29Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, you can go anywhere.

• 43:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 07

  You can, you can start from any point.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 07

  And sometimes it's just so literal. It's like, I really, what I wanted to write was, "I don't want to write a song right now." But, you know, anyway.

• 43:44Speaker 07

  All right.

• 44:07Speaker 07

  Not the long flowing dress that you're in Or the light coming off of your skin Fragile heart you've protected for so long Or the mercy in your sense of right and wrong It's not your hands searching slow in the dark Or your nails leaving love water mark

• 44:40Speaker 07

  It's not the way you taught me all through

• 44:46Speaker 07

  Your questions like directions to the truth It's knowing that this can't go on for ever

• 44:57Speaker 07

  Likely one of us will have to spend some days alone Maybe we'll get forty years together But one day I'll be gone, and one day you'll be gone

• 45:14Speaker 07

  We were vampires and death was a joke We'd go out on the sidewalk and smoke

• 45:26Speaker 07

  And laugh at all the lovers and their plans I wouldn't feel the need to hold your hand But maybe time running out is a gift So I'll work hard till the end of my shift To give you every second I can find

• 45:54Speaker 07

  And hope it isn't me who's left behind. Knowing that this can't go on forever. It's likely one of us will have to spend some days alone. Maybe we'll get forty years together. Oh, but one day I'll be gone. One day you'll be gone.

• 46:44Speaker 07

  Go around again.

• 47:09Speaker 07

  Knowing that this can't go on forever. It's likely one of us will have to spend some days alone. Maybe we'll get forty years together. One day I'll be gone. One day you'll be gone.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  Now that's a great song. Thank you. That was so great. That was better than "Hoarders".

• 47:53Speaker 07

  I guess, that day.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  It's such a sweet sentiment.

• 47:58Speaker 07

  It's, it's, uh.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  It's like, dark?

• 48:01Speaker 07

  It's dark, yeah.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  It's really sweet at first, and then when you dive into the lyrics more, it's like, oh, it's kinda dark.

• 48:05Speaker 07

  It's about death.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  But it's also really sweet.

• 48:08Speaker 07

  It's, um, it's, people will go just far enough into that song to get the opposite of the meaning sometimes.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Sometimes, yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 07

  You know?

• 48:17Speaker 00

  That's funny.

• 48:19Speaker 07

  But yeah, it's sort of like, like, it's not, I'm not being sad that we're gonna die. I mean, I am sad that we're gonna die, but not in that song. In that song, I'm celebrating it, cause it's like, this is the only reason that we bother to do all this stuff.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 07

  You know? If not, we would smoke cigarettes and just.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 48:38Speaker 07

  Not ever reveal any part of ourself.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 48:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, we'd be so lonely to be a vampire. I guess Anne Rice wrote a bunch of books about that.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:47Speaker 07

  How lonely vampires are.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 48:50Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  I forgot that that's kinda the crux of what those books were about, yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 07

  I read those when I was a teenager, maybe that's why I wound up writing this song. In the studio, Dave Cobb did not want to cut that because it was just like. Well, he just had like, the, the, um, titles of everything, and so we didn't, I didn't do demos. I, I hate to do demos, cause then everybody that hears it falls in love with a version of it.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  I get demoitis real bad.

• 49:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, I don't like it.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  I'd rather just use the demo.

• 49:21Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm, yeah, exactly. And I, I'll, so I'll go in, if I'm recording with the whole band, I'm just gonna sit down and play the song for everybody. And then we'll all go to our station and start recording.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:32Speaker 07

  So that's the first time they've heard it. And that's a luxury, cause we can afford to be in the studio and they can all play well. And, you know, some people have to practice things before they go start spending money on recording them.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:44Speaker 07

  But, um, I like to kinda spring it on them, cause I like to find that spot right before they are performing it, when they're still sort of creating it.

• 49:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's the best.

• 49:54Speaker 07

  That's the trick, yeah. And that song, Dave was like, ah, we'll, we'll do that eventually. Cause he just saw the word vampires and he thought it was like

• 50:04Speaker 00

  He didn't think it was like a good heartfelt song?

• 50:08Speaker 07

  No.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  It's like the most heartfelt song.

• 50:10Speaker 07

  He thought it was gonna be like, one, two, three, four.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  That's funny.

• 50:15Speaker 07

  Finally, like a couple of days before the end of the session, I was like, let's, we're doing that song, Dave. And, you know, he was crying at the console, like, oh, never mind. And that was fun. That one was really fun.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  That's a good one.

• 50:28Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  You, you have all these songs from that era, from earlier than that. Do songs change for you, the meanings, when you perform them? I get asked this a lot and I never really know how to answer it, so I'm not sure why I'm asking it. But, you know, when you're performing a song that you wrote many, many years ago, maybe about something specific, maybe not.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  Do you feel like songs are alive and they've changed meaning?

• 50:57Speaker 07

  I don't know that they...

• 50:58Speaker 00

  Or does it bring it back to you, to a place, you know?

• 51:02Speaker 07

  I feel like the context of my life since then changes meaning, but the song itself doesn't necessarily.

• 51:11Speaker 07

  It, it's, that's a good question, cause I kinda wonder about that too. I, I think...

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Maybe it depends on the song.

• 51:19Speaker 07

  It depends on the song, yeah, yeah. Just like everything else. It depends on the song.

• 51:26Speaker 07

  Yeah, some of them do. Some of them, some of them go from, maybe not meaning, but being, you know, what they exist as in my mind, you know? They go from existing as this sort of like red hot

• 51:44Speaker 07

  profession of something, either love, or lust, or regret, or, you know, growth, or something. They go from that to being, you know, just sort of a document. But the good thing about it is like, we get to live with them. And that's really kinda what I take away from all of it, is how lucky we are to get to pull these things back out of the coffin. And every night.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 07

  You know, because.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  It's like a memory book.

• 52:10Speaker 07

  It is, but painters don't get to do that.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 52:13Speaker 07

  You know, if you're, if you're a paint, you paint, you paint, you know, either you keep it, or if you, if you sell paintings, you're probably not going to see it again.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's also true.

• 52:21Speaker 07

  And to spend that much time and that much of yourself on something, and then it goes to somebody else's house forever is kind of heartbreaking to me. It's also, I think, one of the reasons why that is fine art and songwriting is not.

• 52:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 07

  You know.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  It's done.

• 52:40Speaker 07

  It's done. It's only decorative.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 07

  It serves no other true purpose. Like songs, you know, sometimes I think we're, we're singing to motivate somebody to feel some way, or to get somebody to make out with us, or to, you know, what, but, but, but art at its root is useless. And, you know, I think we're so lucky that we get to take these songs back out every night and bring them to life for a purpose.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, and looking out at people in the audience crying.

• 53:14Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  Or singing along. It just, it like revives it all.

• 53:18Speaker 07

  It does.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  Even more.

• 53:19Speaker 07

  Makes it brand new.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  It almost makes it beyond, you know, like adds new life to it.

• 53:24Speaker 07

  Without a doubt, yeah, without a doubt. And I mean, I, I, you, I mean, you've had big hit songs. That feeling is weird. Like, I've had one that sort of went on that trip completely separately of me.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  It takes on its own life, right?

• 53:40Speaker 07

  It does. And it's just a whole different situation for people. And you think, I was in my bedroom, you know, sitting cross-legged on the bed, just trying to figure out what word rhymed.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:52Speaker 07

  And now, all of a sudden, it's just this big, huge thing that doesn't even really feel, and it's still mine, but it's not mine anymore.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree with that. It doesn't feel like it's yours anymore.

• 54:03Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  But it is.

• 54:04Speaker 07

  It's still yours, yeah. Try to change a lyric, though, and see, see what they think about that.

• 54:10Speaker 00

  People get mad about that.

• 54:11Speaker 07

  They'll get mad, I bet.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  Do you ever change lyrics, kind of like?

• 54:14Speaker 07

  I do.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Just based on how you're feeling?

• 54:16Speaker 07

  But not like significant ones. I'll change like a connector.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 54:21Speaker 07

  You know, I'll go from for to but, from and to but sometimes.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  Present to past tense?

• 54:26Speaker 07

  Yeah, just fix it, like fix the grammar in my songs.

• 54:30Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. Make it better.

• 54:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, but not in any way that's like a big, like I won't take a name and change it or a, you know, but I'll take like a, like an and and make it a but if it's supposed to be.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Didn't Dylan do that a bunch?

• 54:46Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  Or like change stuff or add stuff?

• 54:49Speaker 07

  He'd have so many versions.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  That's cool, too. I like that.

• 54:52Speaker 07

  I think that's really cool.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  I think it's cool.

• 54:54Speaker 07

  I saw him play at Brooklyn Bowl in Nashville a couple of summers ago. And he was doing this version of When I Paint My Masterpiece. It was like, almost like Samba sounding or something? And I was talking to his tour manager afterward about it. And he said somebody had asked him during a show, somebody had yelled up at Dylan, "Play something we know." And he started playing like the girl from Ipanema, which I think is the funniest thing. They didn't say play a Bob Dylan song we know.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  No, that's a great comeback.

• 55:27Speaker 07

  And it's so good. And the band started following in. And he started singing When I Paint My Masterpiece and it became the version they were touring with.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 55:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, still, he's still quick.

• 55:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's great.

• 55:39Speaker 07

  Sharp. Mm-hmm. Yep. But those were good shows at the bowling alley. They were, he was talking to the audience and like coming out from behind the mic and smiling and stuff. It was, it was cool.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  That's great. He's, he's still got it.

• 55:52Speaker 07

  He's still got it. All right, let me check my tuning here.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by rising star Sienna Spiro.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  My first ever in-the-world show was when I was 10, and I sang at a pub called The Georgian Devonshire. I was so nervous. I was 10, so they let me in only to sing my song and they kicked me out right after. And then I remember I wrote, I've been writing since I was 10, so I wrote this song called Lady in the Mirror. Made this little track with it, but I just like pressed it. And I remember I sang this song, and there was like five people in there. And I remember how myself I felt, and I felt like I understood myself and understood what I needed to do.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  So does that take us back to, I sing just to know I'm alive?

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Hundred percent, hundred percent, my whole life.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 57:27Speaker 04

  This is Jonas Knox from Two Pros and a Cup of Joe. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford Ability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 58:03Speaker 00

  I like your nail polish.

• 58:05Speaker 07

  Oh, thank you. I need to get it done again. It's chipping, and I look pretty ratchet. My fingernails started splitting. Uh, I don't know, a couple of years ago, from, I guess from playing the guitar so much and just pulling the nail bed away from the nail.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  Do you play with your nails?

• 58:26Speaker 07

  I do some, but not, I think it's more about like when the fat of my finger pulls away from the fingernail, it doesn't support it.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  Oh, on that hand?

• 58:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, so this hand it splits down the middle.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 58:38Speaker 07

  And so I started getting, uh, powder dip, or dip powder, is it dip powder or powder dip?

• 58:44Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 58:44Speaker 07

  It's hard as a rock.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  I've never heard of it. Is this a nail thing?

• 58:47Speaker 07

  It's a nail thing.

• 58:48Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 58:48Speaker 07

  And it takes them like, they have to put it on like four different layers.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  It's like a gel manicure or something?

• 58:53Speaker 07

  It is, but it's really hard.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 58:55Speaker 07

  And I started using that and I loved it, but the problem is it was really thick and so I would accidentally hit strings that I didn't mean to hit. And so I had to stop using that. So now I'm on gel.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  So you're just doing gel?

• 59:09Speaker 07

  I'm just doing gel.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Oh, so you're doing gel?

• 59:11Speaker 07

  Yeah, and it, but it comes off so easily and it, and I get so sad when I look at my fingers and my nails are chipped. It makes me so sad.

• 59:23Speaker 00

  So, I didn't know this song.

• 59:25Speaker 07

  Oh, really?

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, or I might have, but I feel, okay, so we're gonna do this Neil Young song. With a lot of artists, it's like this, but with Neil more than anyone, there's always some pocket that I don't know.

• 59:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, me too.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  That when somebody opens the door to it, I get so excited.

• 59:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, me too. He's got so many records and

• 59:44Speaker 00

  So many.

• 59:45Speaker 07

  So many different kinds of songs. And, uh, this, this record, Freedom, I think it was, was it eighty, eighty-eight, eighty-nine maybe? And, uh, it hit me just like a ton of bricks. Like it's still the one of his that probably affected me the most.

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  Really? When?

• 1:00:04Speaker 07

  In, in nineteen ninety, nineteen eighty-nine.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  Okay, so around the time it came out.

• 1:00:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, I was about ten years old.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  You were a cool ten-year-old.

• 1:00:10Speaker 07

  I was a pretty cool ten-year-old. Not if you ask the other 10 year olds, but

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  In hindsight.

• 1:00:18Speaker 07

  In hindsight. But I remember it having two versions of Rockin' in the Free World on this record. One with Crazy Horse and then one just him acoustic.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Speaker 07

  And so now you can just trace that basically to everything that I have done in my career. It's like I just made my whole life out of those two songs on that record.

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 1:00:39Speaker 07

  But this one is so beautiful and Linda.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  Oh, Linda Ronstadt is one of my favorites.

• 1:00:44Speaker 07

  They're great. Oh, I love, I love Linda.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  I do too.

• 1:00:49Speaker 07

  I don't know Linda, but I worship Linda.

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  I got to meet her once.

• 1:00:52Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  Super sweet. Yeah.

• 1:00:54Speaker 07

  I got a really good story from Patterson Hood, because I used to be in his band, Drive By Truckers. And his dad was the bass player in the Muscle Shoals rhythm section in the 60s, 70s, mostly the 70s and 80s and 90s. And Linda would come into town and record at Muscle Shoals Sound. And she would stay at Patterson's house, hang out with Patterson's mom. And this is Patterson's story, but it's a good one. Apparently, one day she wanted, Patterson was like five, six, seven years old, and Linda wanted a cheeseburger. And she's like, where can I go get a cheeseburger and a beer? And his mom said, well, the smokehouse, but women don't go in the smokehouse. And like

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  That's all she needed?

• 1:01:35Speaker 07

  Yes. And of course, so she tied the shirt up and put the shorts on.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Oh, man.

• 1:01:40Speaker 07

  And the first woman to go get a cheeseburger at the smokehouse

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  In Florence, Alabama.

• 1:01:44Speaker 07

  is Linda Ronstadt. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good cheeseburger.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 1:01:49Speaker 07

  Yeah. I think Patterson was a little bit in love with Linda Ronstadt when he was

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  Weren't you?

• 1:01:53Speaker 07

  Six or seven. Oh, my God. Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  I think I was in love with her when I was little too.

• 1:01:57Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. It's impossible not to be.

• 1:01:59Speaker 00

  I mean, she was just so ballsy.

• 1:02:01Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:02Speaker 00

  And also gorgeous and just cool.

• 1:02:05Speaker 07

  And good. Those songs were so

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  So good. Best singer. It just

• 1:02:09Speaker 07

  The harmony stuff, like I still hear things and I'm like, oh, that's beautiful. And then I'll look at the liner notes. I'm like, of course it is Linda Ronstadt. Yeah.

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. She's the best.

• 1:02:20Speaker 07

  I think I'm in tune.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  I'm gonna play Whirly. Is that cool?

• 1:02:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's very cool.

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  Is it too loud for you?

• 1:02:26Speaker 07

  Sounds good. It's good for me.

• 1:02:31Speaker 07

  I think I'm in tune. I think so. Ready?

• 1:02:47Speaker 07

  Though the river flowed gently to the sea, he was on the shore rooted like a tree. She was here and there riding on the waves. Through it all she heard his call and gave it all she gave.

• 1:03:15Speaker 07

  And though their love was hanging on a limb, she taught him how to dance and start again.

• 1:03:31Speaker 07

  And though their love was hanging on a limb, she taught him how to dance. She taught him how to dance.

• 1:04:03Speaker 07

  And when the melody through the window called, it echoed in the courtyard and whispered in the halls. He played it through the night. She knew he had to go. There was something about freedom he thought he didn't know. And though their love was hanging on a limb, she taught him how to dance.

• 1:04:41Speaker 07

  And started in.

• 1:04:46Speaker 07

  And though their love was hanging on a limb, she taught him how to dance. She taught him how to dance.

• 1:05:31Speaker 07

  Though the river flowed gently to the sea, he was on the shore, rooted like a tree. She was here and there, riding on the waves. Through it all, she heard his call and gave it all she gave. And though their love was hanging on a limb, she taught him how to dance. She taught him how to dance.

• 1:06:16Speaker 07

  That sounds good to me.

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Speaker 07

  That was so good. That was so fun.

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  God, that's a pretty song.

• 1:06:21Speaker 07

  What a beautiful song.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  It's like a trance.

• 1:06:25Speaker 07

  Oh, totally.

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 07

  It's so droney and so... But the line, "There was something about freedom he thought he didn't know."

• 1:06:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 07

  Just kills me.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  That's a line.

• 1:06:36Speaker 07

  It's a line. And at first, you think it's like space. It's Neil's like this. Like, there are people who I have so much respect for who are songwriters, who just don't buy it. Who are like, Neil's like a broken clock. He's right twice a day. But I don't think that's the case at all. Because I think this line could appear to that. But I've been in that experience where I thought that I thought there was more.

• 1:07:06Speaker 07

  You know, and I may have made a decision because I thought there was more for me. And then later on, I think that's a line about regret. There's something about freedom. He thought he didn't know, but he did.

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  I like that.

• 1:07:19Speaker 07

  He was right the first time around. I just love that line.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

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• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel. My small experience with the discrepancy in the business of music made me angry in the best way. And I wanted to, I wanted to finish. So I started really like leaning into my therapy, trying to get down to like, what matters now. Somewhere Miguelito felt like he didn't have a place to say how he felt. And music was the place that I went to, to say how I felt.

• 1:08:35Speaker 03

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The Odd Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great Value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 1:09:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, and I think Neil does that. It sounds like he's stumbling, but he's not. He's not stumbling.

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  I think for me, I feel like Neil just says what it is.

• 1:09:32Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  A lot.

• 1:09:33Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Speaker 00

  And sometimes that can sound clunky to people.

• 1:09:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  But it's always right here in the heart.

• 1:09:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:09:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, and sometimes it's clunky.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, like when he's singing about Apple music, you know, and he's complaining about it.

• 1:09:47Speaker 07

  Like Green Dale or something like.

• 1:09:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, that sounds a little clunky sometimes in the moment because it's current. But in hindsight, all that current stuff that he wrote about back in the day.

• 1:09:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, Neil was right.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:09:59Speaker 07

  Neil was right. We need Neil was right shirts. Yeah, and even like the clunkiness, one of my favorite things about him is, and his music, is that I get the sense that he, not only does he not care if we like it or not, but sometimes he would rather we didn't.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  He could not care less.

• 1:10:18Speaker 07

  It's just, this is what it is.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  Well, he wants to, he wants to make you think about it, I think. Yeah.

• 1:10:24Speaker 07

  Love him.

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  Well, this has been a delight.

• 1:10:27Speaker 07

  I have really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  It's been so great.

• 1:10:31Speaker 07

  Really nice to make music with you.

• 1:10:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, more please.

• 1:10:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, let's do more.

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  Always. I always leave these wanting more.

• 1:10:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, this is, this is really a cool setup, though. It's a cool way to do things.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's fun for people who are down to be loose.

• 1:10:45Speaker 07

  Oh, right. Some people get too nervous.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  I mean, nobody who's done it, but I feel like I could get why.

• 1:10:51Speaker 07

  Tell me who is terrible.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  No, no, no, everybody was great. I just feel like it's a lot to ask of somebody who's not comfortable in this scenario.

• 1:10:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. Did you, did you start out like, like playing with your friends and in rooms and parties and circles and things like that?

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  Like when I was young?

• 1:11:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Speaker 00

  No, I didn't have any friends.

• 1:11:13Speaker 07

  I didn't have a lot. I didn't have a lot.

• 1:11:15Speaker 00

  No, I mostly played in school and stuff.

• 1:11:19Speaker 07

  Okay. I think sometimes for people who started out like playing in bigger groups of people at house parties and sitting around oak trees and things, it might be a little bit more comfortable.

• 1:11:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I will say the sort of country, more country leaning artists have been all completely down.

• 1:11:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:11:37Speaker 00

  You know, it's a little easier.

• 1:11:39Speaker 07

  I think so.

• 1:11:39Speaker 00

  Is that sort of just sitting in a room and playing thing.

• 1:11:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  But I think I came from jazz where we were always just jamming and

• 1:11:46Speaker 07

  Right.

• 1:11:46Speaker 00

  sort of doing gigs.

• 1:11:48Speaker 07

  And actually listening to each other, which is, that's another level.

• 1:11:52Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:11:52Speaker 07

  Country music, we have learned not to listen to the banjo player very early on.

• 1:11:58Speaker 00

  You can't not listen. It's so loud.

• 1:12:00Speaker 07

  You have no choice. That's why acoustic guitars got so good. They were trying to drown out those banjos.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  Awesome. Well, thanks.

• 1:12:11Speaker 07

  Thank you, Nora. It's been a pleasure.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  Oh, that was fun. Thanks for listening.

• 1:12:16Speaker 05

  It's great.

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  I love him.

• 1:12:18Speaker 05

  Me too.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  He's just amazing. If you want to know what songs we played in this episode, the first song was Eileen from Foxes in the Snow, released in 2025. Second song was the title track from that same album, Foxes in the Snow. Third song was If We Were Vampires by Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit from the Nashville Sound album in 2017. And the fourth song was Hanging on a Limb by Neil Young from his album Freedom, which was released in 1989. I love that song so much. I'm so glad he suggested it. A special thanks to Jason Isbell for joining us today, and we'll be back next week with Maria Zardoya. Norah Jones is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Visit Norah Jones' channel

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Norah Jones. This episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, video by Heck More Media, additional video by Kay Loggins, mixed by Jamie Landry, video editing by Marcus Rutledge, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Fry, photography by Sherwin Lanaz, produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  Executive producers Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runtog. Marketing lead, Queen Anaki. Thank you.

• 1:13:36Speaker 05

  You're welcome.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  Thanks for listening.

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