Anoushka Shankar

Today we speak with the brilliant, world-renowned sitar player, Anoushka Shankar, who happens to be Norah’s sister!

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Speaker 01

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• 0:35Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:07Speaker 03

  Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm reloving Playing Along with Anoushka Shankar.

• 1:12Speaker 04

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:19Speaker 04

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:25Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Nora, and with me as always is Sarah Oda.

• 1:28Speaker 00

  Welcome to our show. We're back with another one of our favorites from the archive.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  Yes. This was our favorite, and also, I feel like it got a lot of other people's favorites, too.

• 1:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a special one. Since we recorded this in April of 2023, Anoushka Shankar has been busy. I feel weird saying her full name because she's my sister. She's literally my half-sister. But since we recorded this in 2023, she's been so busy with many different projects. She's released a three-part mini-album trilogy. She's been touring internationally with her Chapters Tour, including a major India tour earlier this year tied to 30 years of live performance. And she's crossed into other projects, including being a featured artist on Gorilla's 2026 album and performances for The Mountain. Not to mention, she's also been nominated for several Grammys in her whole career, but also since we recorded this.

• 2:24Speaker 03

  So I hope you enjoy the episode. One of our faves, Anoushka Shankar.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  We have a very special episode today because we are keeping it in the family.

• 2:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is special. Our guest today is Anoushka Shankar. She's an amazing, brilliant, world-renowned sitar player. And she also happens to be my sister.

• 2:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:50Speaker 03

  We are half-sisters, and we have kind of an interesting story, which we'll get into a little. But we basically both grew up as only children.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  And then we met when we were 16 and 18. I was 18.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, this episode, it was so cool because, you know, I've known you for a long time. A long, long time. And I just, like, I know that your sister is a big part of your story, you know? And but I've only kind of gotten bits and pieces over the years. But like, to hear you and her talk to each other about those early stories about when you first reconnected and everything is so special. Because, you know, you each kind of went on your own path and then met in this way. That's just so unique.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  It is unique to us. We've also been close since we've, since we reconnected. And, you know, we love each other a lot. I love her so much. Also, she is one of the most incredible musicians I know.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  She's a virtuoso. I was gonna say she's virtuostic, but I don't think that's a word.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so funny how you said it. Virtuostic, virtuoso.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  She's a virtuostic sitar player.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  She's definitely a virtuoso.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  She's a master. She's a master of the instrument and music in general.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  I get to ask her about something that we've actually never talked about. And that's when she started learning the instrument at a very young age, from our dad, who was a very famous and brilliant sitar player. His name was Ravi Shankar, in case you don't know that. So kind of hearing that story from her was special. But she also comes from a very different way of learning music. So we had some interesting talks about how we think about certain things differently. And I found it very interesting because I don't think I've ever completely understood the technique of Indian classical music until she, she really explained it well to me.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  She's, yeah, she's a good teacher.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  I mean,

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:48Speaker 03

  She's an incredible musician, and we've got to play music a few times together on a few of her albums. But to sit in a room like this and just play was super fun.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, this was like the first time you kind of did it that way, in the stripped down.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was really special for us.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  I also love that she requested to do a song from your, one of your early albums.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, that was really fun.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  Which I'm not going to say what it is.

• 5:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, but we'll get there.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  Because I'm gonna give it away, but it will be a treat.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I hope you enjoy this episode. I love her so much. I was gonna say, we love her so much, but I really love her so much. I think you love her.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  I love her now, too.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, we spent a lot of time with her that week. So I feel like you finally got to know her.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  I did.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  I don't, I feel like you've met her a bunch, but not really.

• 5:34Speaker 00

  It's always quick and in passing and work-related.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  This was like a hang.

• 5:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, we had so much fun, and please enjoy the episode with the beautiful and the amazing Anoushka Shankar.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  The sun won't set.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  The sun won't set.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  Golden embers spinning round. The day is almost done. I wonder how it felt beneath the evening sun. Each sunset keeps me still. The tree sheds its leaves. I wind the evening chill. It's hardest to resist. The sun won't set.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  The sun won't set.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 7:34Speaker 04

  The sun below the trees, starting to get cold. Holding on through change. The day grows old. I miss the morning heat. Fall upon my face. I wish I knew you then. It's always sunset in this place. The sun won't set.

• 8:09Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  The sun won't set.

• 8:23Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 8:57Speaker 04

  The sun won't say.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  The sun won't say.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  Not now, not yet.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  How do you feel about unresolving?

• 9:51Speaker 05

  To D or not to D.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  To D or not to D. Is that what you said?

• 9:57Speaker 05

  It's the story of my life.

• 9:59Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. I thought that was really pretty.

• 10:01Speaker 05

  That was really pretty.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  I screwed up some of the phrasing, but I feel like I caught up.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  I was like, oh, she could have kept. Yeah, she did it.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Good, because I thought that was really pretty.

• 10:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, the fact that you did it meant that it was beautiful.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  That's jazz, baby.

• 10:13Speaker 05

  And different.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Okay, cool.

• 10:14Speaker 05

  And I liked our little ending. I did resolve, though. Are you happy with the fact that I?

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, okay.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  I, uh, I thought that was so pretty.

• 10:21Speaker 05

  It felt good to me.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Yay. So, hi.

• 10:25Speaker 05

  Hello.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  I love you. I usually end the podcast with, I love you.

• 10:30Speaker 05

  Start with it. You can start and end with it. I get, I surely get a little bit more.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  I feel like this is so special for me to have you, to play music with you in this way. Because we've recorded, I feel like we recorded these songs how long ago? 2013?

• 10:48Speaker 05

  I mean, exactly 10 years ago.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  Exactly 10 years ago.

• 10:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly 10 years ago.

• 10:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, and this was a fun session because we got to play together in the studio. It wasn't like an overdub added later or something.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I remember that. But that was funny because that was only 10 years ago in another sense. And it was our first time sort of sitting in a room and playing.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it really was. And we, and we hung out and wrote one of them together, kind of. And that was also fun.

• 11:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, I wrote words and you made them sound good. It was amazing.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  And they were really emotional words, if I can.

• 11:24Speaker 05

  I mean, I don't know if you remember one change that you made where I had been like so painfully literal about one thing. And you were just really gently like, how about we just change that word to this word and then rhyme it with this one instead? And I was like, yep, if I thought of that, that would have been.

• 11:38Speaker 03

  We'll play that song later. You'll have to remind me. Or, or maybe we can keep it a secret. I don't know. That's so crazy. I remember, do you remember the first time we met?

• 11:48Speaker 05

  I mean, yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 11:49Speaker 05

  Slightly significant.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  Very significant. And I, I just want to describe to you how I felt when I saw you. You were 16 years old and I was 18. And of course, we're meeting our sister for the first time. It was heavy. We don't have to get too heavy here, but.

• 12:08Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm already feeling heavy.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  I know. But you walked into the room, you got, you got home from school.

• 12:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, you were already there.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  I was already there. And you walk into the room and you had this gorgeous hair down to your butt, almost.

• 12:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, where did that go?

• 12:24Speaker 03

  Oh, I know. And you had jeans on and like a T-shirt and you had blue eyeshadow.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  And you were so beautiful and like bubbly and sweet. And you just came in and you gave me a hug and I love you.

• 12:41Speaker 05

  I love you too. Do you remember that before the day we met, we'd been speaking on the phone for like maybe some months?

• 12:47Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 12:47Speaker 05

  Getting to know each other before you came. And I remember one day being on the phone with you and kind of saying, I wonder what it would be like when we meet? Like, would we hug or would we? And you were like, I'm mad at you. Why would you even ask that? Of course, of course I would hug you. So then I felt so much more confident walking in that day to be like, okay, I get to hug her.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  I'm mad at you. I'm like, I'm mad at you.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  I'm mad at you.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  Of course we're not hugged. That's hilarious.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 03

  I don't remember that.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  And you gave me a Dr. Seuss book that day. You gave me, you gave me the places you'll go.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, you found it recently. You sent me a picture.

• 13:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  The little inscription was really sweet. I used to be thoughtful and sweet. I lost that.

• 13:26Speaker 05

  I haven't had anything with your writing on it to me in.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Oh, I, I'm heaven's, I'm the worst birthday remember, as you know, on the planet. I also don't care about my own birthday. So I think that's why I like, I'm like.

• 13:40Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, you just made it so selfish on my part. Now I know why I remember people's birthdays.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Because you care about yours.

• 13:45Speaker 05

  Because I'm obsessed with my own.

• 13:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's how it is. I know some people say they're more givers than receivers, but I think most people.

• 13:51Speaker 05

  No, I'm gonna give to you this way on your birthday.

• 13:56Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so sweet, though.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  We were sweet.

• 13:59Speaker 03

  We were so sweet.

• 14:01Speaker 05

  I think we had to be so intentional about building our relationship.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  We did.

• 14:07Speaker 05

  That we kind of came very open heartedly towards each other to be like, hi, I want you. Like, I want you as a sister. I choose you. Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, because we could have not stayed. It's not like we were ever gonna live together. And you're, you're better at that than I am. But it's only because not, I'm bad at it, not because I don't want it, just because, again, that's my personality. I'm just flaky.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  You have always been, I don't know, it's just so crazy. I think we both said to each other, I've always wanted a sister.

• 14:37Speaker 05

  Well, I, I, I always knew I had you and that I'd never met you. So maybe, I don't know which came first, chicken or egg, you know? Like, maybe it's because I knew you were out there somewhere. Or maybe it wasn't. But I was always obsessed with this idea that I had a sister. And like, I used to think about it and be like, well, if I had a sister here, then this would be happening. Or if I.

• 14:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think, I, I didn't know about you till I was nine.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, that was, your story was a little.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  It's just, we have such a weird family story and it's very personal to us and hard for other people to get right.

• 15:08Speaker 05

  But what I find, I mean, I want you to finish whatever you were saying as well. But I feel like so often I hear stories that are so much crazier than ours.

• 15:14Speaker 03

  Oh, totally. It's mild comparatively.

• 15:17Speaker 05

  So sometimes I'm like, it's really crazy. And sometimes I'm like, yeah.

• 15:20Speaker 03

  It's not that crazy. It's just, it's just specific.

• 15:23Speaker 05

  It's specific. And I think everyone's own story will have its own full feelings. So like, our joy was our joy, our pain was our pain.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then our impressions of our own story are different from each other.

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 03

  Because like, I didn't know about you till I was nine.

• 15:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 03

  And then because I wasn't really around any of that part of the family, I think I didn't really let myself think about you that much. It was a little bit protective.

• 15:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  And so when it came down to it, I got, I did get so excited.

• 15:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  But I hadn't really let myself go there when I was a kid.

• 15:55Speaker 05

  That makes sense.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  Do you remember the first time I came to visit you?

• 15:59Speaker 03

  I remember the first time you came to, um, New York. Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 05

  And you had a bedroom that was pretty much the size of your mattress?

• 16:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was tiny.

• 16:09Speaker 05

  Yeah. And it was like, for me, it was exciting because like, I still lived at home. And it was like getting to visit my big sister in New York where she was like suddenly there making music and building a life. And it was, um, yeah, super like exciting to me to come and see you there.

• 16:25Speaker 03

  It was really fun. We had a ball. We did all the things.

• 16:31Speaker 05

  We did all the things.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, and we were grown, we were grown women, except we were not, we were very little.

• 16:39Speaker 05

  Yes, but we felt like grown women.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was the funnest time. If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before

• 17:21Speaker 03

  everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 17:39Speaker 06

  Hey, this is Mario Lopez from all Mario Lopez Daily Podcast. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. Well, Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at traded. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  Well, it's so fun to like, talk and then play music and then talk. So let's play music.

• 18:23Speaker 05

  Which one do you want to do next?

• 18:24Speaker 03

  Well, do you have an order of tuning?

• 18:26Speaker 05

  Um, between them all. Should we try yours?

• 18:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  I love that you wanted to do this.

• 18:32Speaker 05

  I'm so, you know what? I mean, I just thought if, if I was coming into your space in this podcast, like, I feel like it's awesome that you're always reaching out to play other people's music and you're so good at that. And then I was like, but I never quite challenged myself the same way with you. So I was like, let me just like also try and play one of your songs. And I have always loved this song, so.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  I have too. I didn't write the song. This song is called Those Sweet Words. And I actually didn't write it, but I do feel like it's my song.

• 18:59Speaker 05

  Well, you make it yours.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  Lee wrote it. Lee Alexander and Richard Julian, you know them both well from the old days of hanging. And they actually wrote it for a movie. Did you know that?

• 19:11Speaker 05

  I didn't know that.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  They wrote it for a Rob Reiner movie starring Kate Hudson.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  No way.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  And Luke Wilson.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  Amazing.

• 19:19Speaker 03

  Called.

• 19:22Speaker 05

  You can do this.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  Insert later. I can't remember, right? It's a second one. Sarah, can you Google that? And I'll insert it later.

• 19:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, my head's going to a lot of romantic comedies, but I don't think.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, they wrote, they wrote it for that movie and it was in the movie, but then we rerecorded it for the album.

• 19:38Speaker 05

  I didn't know that.

• 19:39Speaker 03

  We did like a different version for the album.

• 19:41Speaker 05

  Because it was on your second album.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  It was on my second album.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, I love it.

• 19:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it was a, just a, I think, you know, I think you picked it because you've always felt like it sounded a little Indian.

• 19:54Speaker 05

  There's something in there.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  There is. And I think there is. So I don't know if it was from like, Lee hanging out with you guys and us going to see you play that it felt like that or what. But it definitely has the vibe.

• 20:06Speaker 05

  Well, I love it.

• 20:07Speaker 03

  Let's try it.

• 20:09Speaker 05

  Let's tune for it.

• 20:11Speaker 03

  Oh, you want to tune?

• 20:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, just need to go major on a couple things.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 20:22Speaker 05

  And that's why we do long songs.

• 20:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, the tuning thing is intense, huh?

• 20:29Speaker 05

  The tuning thing is intense for situations like this, where I step out of like a more Indian raga context and I'm playing like three, four minute songs. I really have to shape. If it's my own shows, I can really shape it in a way that makes sense for tuning. But otherwise, it's like, you can't be doing that every three minutes.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's different. Like when our dad would perform, didn't people clap at the tuning? Because they weren't sure that that wasn't the song.

• 20:51Speaker 05

  Because that was five minutes or whatever.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it took so long and it was pretty sound. That's like the story, right?

• 20:57Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. I think that's the Concert for Bangladesh recording. But it's like on record that he said that. Where he's like, if you enjoyed the tuning so much, I hope you.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  I hope you liked it. That's so funny. All right.

• 21:09Speaker 05

  Do I just start?

• 21:10Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:12Speaker 05

  I could?

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:14Speaker 05

  Or do you set tempo?

• 21:16Speaker 03

  I just want to make sure we're in the same page. Something like that.

• 21:20Speaker 05

  Cool.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  I loved that.

• 25:10Speaker 05

  I know.

• 25:11Speaker 03

  Yay.

• 25:12Speaker 05

  Yay. And also that way, your song sounds like different for a reason.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's like, it's like, I love hearing you do more rhythmic stuff.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  Cool.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  That was so pretty.

• 25:21Speaker 05

  Thank you. Your song is so pretty.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Oh, well, my song is, I didn't write.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  Your song that you didn't write, but you make yours.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  But I make mine, yeah. I think when I sing that.

• 25:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, that feels really like.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  I want to sing like.

• 25:40Speaker 05

  Like a.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Like Lata Mangeshkar, but I can't because I can't roll notes to save my life. I never have been able to. So I kind of fake it.

• 25:48Speaker 05

  You do in a different way.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  But I don't in the actual way.

• 25:52Speaker 05

  Or in the Indian way.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, even with R and B, I can't do those kind of roles either.

• 25:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, whatever you do is working, so keep doing it.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  I kind of fake my way through those. Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I love when you did that. Even when you sang Bappi's, our dad's, I'm Missing You. And like, I feel like you, you hit a lot of those inflections, but in a way that you made your own, which I find like more beautiful if you're gonna do it. Like, it's nice to hear it as, as you, you know?

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Thanks. Well, yeah, that's the goal, right? But yeah, the way Lakshmi sings that. It's so beautiful and I, there's no way I could do it like her, so.

• 26:29Speaker 05

  Neither can I.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. That was fun. If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of Sheik. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:28Speaker 06

  Hey, this is Mario Lopez from All Mario Lopez Daily Podcast. Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel drive Camry Corolla Cross or a Corolla sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  When did you start playing?

• 28:07Speaker 05

  Ah, I started playing. I remember my first lesson was when I was seven.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  And it was with our dad?

• 28:13Speaker 05

  It wasn't actually. The very first lesson was with our dad's student, Gaurav Mazumbar.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Oh, I remember him.

• 28:18Speaker 05

  Do you remember Gaurav that day?

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:19Speaker 05

  He's the sweetest.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Sweetheart.

• 28:20Speaker 05

  And like, I really remember like being out in the garden and being kind of called in because it was time to do my first lesson. So it's just set up badly. Like from the beginning, I didn't want to do it because it was like, but I'm playing, you know?

• 28:31Speaker 03

  I'm playing on, in the playground. Yeah.

• 28:34Speaker 05

  But, but I remember like just being shown like just the first octave and just where they were on the instrument. And I had learned like very basic singing from my mom from much before that. So I knew like what the notes were in the Indian.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 28:49Speaker 05

  Like solfège system, so sadegama, padhanisa. So I knew that octave, I knew those notes, but he was showing me like where, where on the instrument that would be. So I think I may, I don't remember. I may have had like a first, just literally maybe three or four lessons with him to set that up.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 29:06Speaker 05

  But then from there, our dad was teaching me.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  But did you understand at seven the gravity of learning to play this instrument with, with who your dad is?

• 29:15Speaker 05

  I wonder if subliminally even that kind of slight resistance to like, do I have to? Could have been a very normal kid's resistance.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, you don't really know.

• 29:23Speaker 05

  But also there was a weight to it of some kind.

• 29:26Speaker 03

  But you weren't sure what it was, probably.

• 29:27Speaker 05

  I wasn't sure what it was. But, but if I look back, it was like, maybe there were some like aunties or uncles or family friends around who would be like, oh, so is she playing yet? Or is she playing? You know, so they weren't asking me about my math homework or my piano the same way. It was like, is she, is she doing this? You know?

• 29:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 05

  So I think that did add a certain pressure or weight to it as much as they tried not to have it be too bad.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  But you're so young. I just wonder how much of it sunk in, you know?

• 29:51Speaker 05

  I think those first couple of years, it was, you know, scales and songs and playing. And then as I got a little better at it, like as happened so often, I started enjoying it more as well. So I don't think I was like in any way contemplating it or serious about it until I was like 10 or 11, 12.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  But what a strange thing to have him be your teacher from such a young age.

• 30:13Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, strange, but also like lucky, right?

• 30:15Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, no. I don't mean strange in a bad way. I mean, super lucky and incredible, of course.

• 30:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  But what I mean is like your dynamic as him being your dad.

• 30:24Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  But like also being your, because in, in this kind of music, it's not just like casual. It's very respects oriented and teacher-student hierarchy, isn't it?

• 30:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, there is. I mean, there's a, there's a sort of, if you go back to like the more traditional setup, like there's a whole sort of philosophy and lifestyle or spiritual path even that, that comes along with learning from a guru, like a teacher in that way.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  That's why they call it, your guru.

• 30:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so whether that's in my instrument or in another instrument or in another field, it's that same element of you, like you are learning something that's being passed on to you in an oral tradition. So it's like a living lesson that's being given to you from this person.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  So it's very precious, but by proxy, so is that person. So there is a kind of veneration or respect for that.

• 31:10Speaker 03

  And you should have that for your father anyway, I guess. But, you know, I'm so casual in that way with my teachers and my parents.

• 31:17Speaker 05

  But I remember that when you, when you started coming around, because when you would come and stay with us, you just automatically had a different kind of immediacy and comfort level with him and the way you hung out with him, which would make me realize in turn that I'd absorbed some of that formality, even though we were like super cuddly, super close. But there was just something slightly different about the way I was with him than with my mom, for example.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 31:38Speaker 05

  Which had to be.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  Which I think is, is just very interesting.

• 31:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's fascinating. I think in that culture, it's really common, like music or any craft is so often passed down. From a teacher to their children, like to a point that it goes too far. Like, I think a lot of people get really protective of their craft.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  The family business.

• 31:56Speaker 05

  To their children only.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 05

  Which luckily Bobby never did, like our dad never did that. But so I guess I had a lot of references of other people that were doing a similar thing.

• 32:05Speaker 03

  That's right. I remember some of those people.

• 32:07Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so I could talk about that with them a little bit sometimes. And also, I think he, like, to give him credit, he also didn't want it to kind of ruin.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 05

  The father daughter side of things. So he did put some effort into like.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  I'm sure.

• 32:19Speaker 05

  Building some boundaries around, like, we're in the music room now.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  That's good.

• 32:23Speaker 05

  We're in the living room.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Because I didn't know if he, like, was conscious of that, but it never seemed, I never felt any formality between you guys personally. I just, I know that, like, it's a strange dynamic for me to imagine.

• 32:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Strange, not bad strange.

• 32:39Speaker 05

  Just strange.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  Strange, just different.

• 32:41Speaker 05

  Strange unusual.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, strange can be a loaded word.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  That's cool. And then, and then, how old were you when you did your first show?

• 32:49Speaker 05

  Oh, my God. I was thirteen and it was in front of like two and a half thousand people.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 32:57Speaker 05

  It was horrific.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  When did the idea start getting floated that you would play with him onstage?

• 33:03Speaker 05

  That it was our dad's seventy-fifth birthday.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:06Speaker 05

  So they started planning like a big concert to just celebrate that and like have a lot of his students from around the country like come and perform. So they started rehearsing like these big ensemble pieces and all the students that could be available to come, came. And so, given that context, I was sitting right there next to everyone in the rehearsals. And I remember my mom kind of coming to me at some point going, do you, do you want to take part? Like, are you wanting, you're also his student, you're his youngest student.

• 33:33Speaker 05

  And I kind of said yes with a bit of like wonderment and confusion, like, yeah, sure, wait, what? Can I say, how, what?

• 33:41Speaker 05

  So I kind of plugged into the group rehearsals and started playing the, the group songs that we were all playing together. But then they had everyone put their instruments down in the middle and I had like a solo, because it was like my announced debut.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  It was like your coming out party.

• 33:54Speaker 05

  Jesus, yes. It was very much like that.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  That sounds so stressful, but also.

• 33:59Speaker 05

  It was really stressful.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  So cool.

• 34:01Speaker 05

  I was so panicked like beforehand.

• 34:03Speaker 03

  So you were, you let, all that stress was there?

• 34:05Speaker 05

  It was there. It was, it was like the first time in my like childhood that I remember that feeling of like, I didn't know you could feel your own heartbeat. You know, when it's like feeling like it's going to beat out of your chest. And I was like, oh, is this what being really, really nervous is?

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. That is kind of nuts.

• 34:22Speaker 05

  It was kind of nuts.

• 34:23Speaker 03

  And then after that, was it just sort of, you were always playing with him or was it sort of here and there?

• 34:28Speaker 05

  Within the, over the next year, I did a couple more shows with him that were sort of convenient, nearby, like near, near where we grew up. Where I grew up in San Diego. So there was like an LA show and a San Francisco show.

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 34:40Speaker 05

  But then over the year, that just felt really good. And I started doing all his shows with him.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  And did you get, when did you start getting really excited about doing it?

• 34:48Speaker 05

  Through that process. Like, I think for me, because it's such a, it's such an improvised form of music. And also because it's taught from person to person, the stage ended up becoming like this beautiful extension of our, of our lessons at home. So I was still learning, but I was learning in this kind of really heady and beautiful heightened context, right?

• 35:06Speaker 03

  And also to be sitting with him as a performer.

• 35:09Speaker 05

  There was so much.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  So special.

• 35:11Speaker 05

  There was so much learning from being up close to him on stage. Like, really, that was, that was a huge part of what made me fall in love with it.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  Um, so, yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 03

  Like, I hate rehearsing, but, but playing live, it's like, there's always something special happens.

• 35:23Speaker 05

  Yeah. So it didn't feel like practicing at home.

• 35:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 35:26Speaker 05

  So it was really beautiful.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  With the tuner on.

• 35:28Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so like, that was a few years, you know, through, through high school. So leading up to turning eighteen like that, all those years, I did almost all his shows. And then I finished high school and it was like, well.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  I guess this is what I do.

• 35:40Speaker 05

  This is what I do, yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  But you put out an album in high school still, right?

• 35:44Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, yeah, I did. My first album was, came out in my senior year, I think.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 35:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  Was that exciting or was that kind of like, well, whatever?

• 35:52Speaker 05

  Super exciting. No, it was really exciting. Um, I, um, I, I, I loved the idea that I was going to get to do that and, and, and make music and make a record. And also it was the nineties and things still happened a certain.

• 36:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 05

  Big record label kind of way.

• 36:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it still felt exciting.

• 36:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, it felt like being swept up into this amazing whirlwind, you know, but.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  And it was a straight Indian classical album?

• 36:16Speaker 05

  It was a purely Indian classical album. Yeah. So that and then the next two records were like purely Indian classical. But I remember like when it was coming out, do you remember Blockbuster stores? So there was like a Blockbuster that was on the way from my house.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  I remember it.

• 36:31Speaker 05

  To my high school. And so there was like a month or a week, I can't remember, but there was like some period of time where my face was like on the window of the Blockbuster that we would all see as I got to high school. And so that was like the first time that things, my worlds kind of collided. Because up until then, I just had my like normal public high school life and then I disappear now and then and go on tour. And then that year, when the record came out, everyone's like, why is your face on the?

• 36:57Speaker 03

  Did they even register or are they like, that's weird, that's cool?

• 37:00Speaker 05

  Both. It was weird and cool.

• 37:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:03Speaker 05

  But yeah, it was like things sort of clashed in a beautiful way. And it was like, no, this is, this is what I do. It made it, made it really real. Because I just kind of kept it really compartmentalized until then.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 37:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  Sometimes I feel like that about my life. When I go on tour, it feels like unless my kids are with me and sometimes, you know, I go without them. I feel like it's a double life.

• 37:22Speaker 05

  Totally. It was just so different.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just such a different, every day is just so different than being home and doing life.

• 37:32Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 37:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Okay. And then, and then I remember when you started kind of searching for different things.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, I saw a lot of you that year when I started, um, Making Rise, which was my fourth album. But it was the first one that I, I wrote and produced myself. So in a way, I sometimes forget to count my first three. I mean, I count them.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  I know what you mean, yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 05

  That one felt like my first baby, you know?

• 38:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it felt like your first baby. I mean, did you feel, I feel like I'm, my impression was that you had a lot of anxiety about trying to venture out on your own and not just follow exactly what you were taught.

• 38:13Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 38:14Speaker 03

  Right?

• 38:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. But I think like, whereas now, you know, obviously it's many years later, but like, there's a certain comfort to just making music, however, feels like truthful to me.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  It makes sense now, but then it didn't yet, right?

• 38:26Speaker 05

  Kind of step out of the only context I'd been in.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  But know that like as a person, that wasn't the whole me. Like, I, I grew up learning this traditional music that I loved so deeply.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:36Speaker 05

  But I also was this whole other person that had grown up, you know, around the world and listened to all kinds of music and, you know, went to music festivals and just, I had a lot of influences.

• 38:46Speaker 03

  You went to raves.

• 38:47Speaker 05

  I went to it.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Let's be honest.

• 38:48Speaker 05

  I was a little psychedelic trance head. Like, I, I spent my winters in Goa whenever I could. And I was at like crazy three day trance parties, you know?

• 38:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:56Speaker 05

  So that was a big part of my life. And so I really did want to make music that reflected my, my soul and who I was a bit more. But it also felt really scary stepping out for the first time.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  I felt that for you and from you.

• 39:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  And I was so excited for you too.

• 39:10Speaker 05

  You guys named that record. Do you remember?

• 39:12Speaker 03

  I do. I remember, I think Lee did.

• 39:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, I came to your house like the day I'd mastered it and we came and listened on your amazing system.

• 39:19Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. He was an audiophile.

• 39:20Speaker 05

  But it was a very different context. Like, once again, I'm visiting my big sister in New York and her like amazing more grown up life. But now it was like your whole new life.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, because I had money finally.

• 39:30Speaker 05

  So it was this amazing place and this incredible music system. And yeah, I just got to sit and listen to the record with you guys. And I had like no time left to name it.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 39:39Speaker 05

  And he was just leaning back, right? Lee was like leaning back and listening to the music. And suddenly out of nowhere, he was like, rise.

• 39:45Speaker 03

  Did he pick a, a word from a song?

• 39:47Speaker 05

  It wasn't any of the song names. He just said rise. And I was like.

• 39:51Speaker 03

  He could be like that, like a little, like a Buddha.

• 39:54Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 39:56Speaker 05

  So, yeah, thanks for that.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah. I, I loved whenever that was all happening, you know? It was exciting to watch you.

• 40:04Speaker 05

  It was an exciting time.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  I think it's so exciting to watch young artists who you see at a young age and it's so exciting to see them grow into who they become.

• 40:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  And like you see that with these young pop stars sometimes and they grow up to be like incredible artists that, that you just, it's totally.

• 40:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  You just watch them become that before your eyes.

• 40:27Speaker 05

  In this last decade where like the way people can reach with music.

• 40:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 05

  I feel like we see more people who just start that way, where they're building their own identity in their room with their little studio setup. And they can just come out kind of being themselves. And I admire that so much. But I also, like you say, like, I love seeing people like break out, like whether it's the kind of the Disney stars or whoever.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 40:48Speaker 05

  So they're already successful. They're already making music.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  They're super talented.

• 40:50Speaker 05

  But you see the moment where they kind of find themselves within what they're doing.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:54Speaker 05

  And bring that and infuse it into what they're doing. It's really beautiful.

• 40:58Speaker 03

  I mean, it's just, it's like, it's like everyone growing up and becoming more yourself, even in life, but I just love it in music. Love seeing it happen.

• 41:06Speaker 05

  Well, you did it in a pretty brave way, I think, like.

• 41:09Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 41:09Speaker 05

  Leaving school and going to New York and kind of making that decision for music.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  Did you know that I, I, I was, I don't know if you know this, you might, but.

• 41:19Speaker 05

  I don't know. Tell me.

• 41:20Speaker 03

  I did two, so I did two years of jazz college, right? And then, um, at the end of the second year, I had to take eight or six semesters of classical piano.

• 41:32Speaker 05

  Is that when you?

• 41:33Speaker 03

  And I had not started yet until the end, the, the last semester of the second year. And I had this awesome teacher. She was so cool and an incredible human. But I think she liked me a lot and she knew that I, she was like, you're going to cram and really practice when it gets closer to the jury, right? I was like, yeah, totally.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  And I did not, I failed my classical jury.

• 41:56Speaker 05

  I didn't know that.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  And I think, I mean, that's not the only reason I dropped out of college, but I think it, being faced with eight semesters of classical piano, which was just not what I was, I'm sure it would have made me a better pianist, but it's not what my, my heart wanted to be focusing on.

• 42:14Speaker 05

  Right.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  And I was already doing gigs and stuff, and I was so into this other kind of making music. I think that was a big part of it. I just knew I couldn't do it.

• 42:23Speaker 05

  I love that you share that, because I just think for someone listening as well to know that like, someone like you. I failed. No, but you failed and then you, like you found your music, you know what I mean? Like, I think that's really beautiful.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Well, it's funny too, because I'd never failed at music before, because I was always good at it.

• 42:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  And I was always like, you know, the person who got the solo, or like, the person who could figure out the chord first.

• 42:44Speaker 05

  Well, maybe let me, let me reframe what I'm, what I'm thinking I mean, which is that like, at least, especially in the UK, for example, where I live now, like, the, the education system for music just gets continually more and more formalized, more and more pedantic, more and more kind of uniform. And I just think it funnels people through this way that I think can be so disheartening. So I think to hear that someone like you, like, failed within that system, because that wasn't the aspect of what you do.

• 43:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 05

  But still could find that, I think that's, that's great.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  I mean, I think, I think all of that has good, good value. It's not like I don't think that, I just, for me at that time, I could not do it.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  But, um, it's funny, yeah.

• 43:24Speaker 05

  So off you went.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  I failed and I cried so hard, and my teacher was so sweet, she hugged me, and I think she was shocked that I failed.

• 43:30Speaker 05

  Right.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  Because she was shocked that I didn't practice enough in the end. It was really just on practicing. I just didn't practice.

• 43:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:37Speaker 03

  But, uh, yeah, so then I moved to New York and I tried to figure myself out.

• 43:42Speaker 05

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 44:27Speaker 05

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• 44:37Speaker 04

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• 45:18Speaker 03

  Um, let's try, um, can we try Traces?

• 45:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'd love to.

• 45:25Speaker 03

  I love this song.

• 45:27Speaker 05

  I don't know how we're gonna do it as two people.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  I'll just like, uh, skip a few or something.

• 45:31Speaker 05

  I'm like such a linear musician that I'm like, I can be really good on my instrument with my two hands, doing something really precise. And as soon as I just need to say something like hello at the right time, I'm like, huh.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  Your timing is off.

• 45:45Speaker 05

  My hand falls apart, my, yeah, yeah, it's, I always look at people like you and go, how are you doing like four things at the same time?

• 45:51Speaker 03

  Oh, I mean, that's why I had that restaurant gig in college, it was paid practice. It was coordination practice.

• 45:57Speaker 05

  I remember seeing you somewhere that was on like 33rd and 3rd.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  Oh, that's right.

• 46:02Speaker 05

  That same first trip when I came to visit you.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  I, I was staying at a wine bar and you came.

• 46:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I remember because I was gonna go leave to see a boyfriend.

• 46:09Speaker 03

  I remember very well.

• 46:11Speaker 05

  And I thought that 33rd and 3rd was really close to 38th and 8th.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  And you wore the highest heels.

• 46:19Speaker 05

  And then I was just walking forever.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  I remember this.

• 46:23Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 46:23Speaker 03

  I remember those boots, actually.

• 46:26Speaker 05

  Those boots were not meant for walking.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Oh my God. And then I remember it, anyway, never mind.

• 46:32Speaker 05

  What was that then?

• 46:33Speaker 03

  No, I remember, I remember.

• 46:36Speaker 05

  Oh, I remember what you're not saying.

• 46:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'm gonna say it, but we can cut it. I remember late at night, being home from my gig and having said goodbye to you and you were hanging out with your boyfriend. Anyway, never mind.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  In a little Korean hotel.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  That's right. You were hanging out and you'd realize you'd forgotten, oh, you had my house key.

• 46:56Speaker 05

  I had your keys.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  And I didn't have them. Oh my God, that's so like, young, young lady in New York.

• 47:04Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  That kind of thing. And I had to find you.

• 47:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, how did you find me?

• 47:09Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 47:11Speaker 05

  I booked that hotel.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  Because this is before phone, it's not before cell phones, but.

• 47:15Speaker 05

  No, but I booked that, I booked that hotel by looking it up in the Yellow Pages.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  How did I know where it was?

• 47:21Speaker 05

  That's what I don't know.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  I think because I knew how far you'd walked and I knew the streets it was on.

• 47:25Speaker 05

  Or did I tell you where I was gonna be, so if I got murdered, you'd know?

• 47:28Speaker 03

  I think you did.

• 47:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 03

  I think I would have asked, I'm very protective.

• 47:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, you always were.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I had to go to your hotel like two in the morning and get the key. Oh my God, I just remember sweating in New York so much, just like, doing stuff like that and being drenched in sweat and.

• 47:44Speaker 05

  So sexy.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. All right, all right, so Traces of You.

• 47:49Speaker 05

  All right.

• 47:49Speaker 03

  This is from that album you made after our dad died, right?

• 47:54Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 47:54Speaker 03

  And so this whole, all these songs are very touched by that.

• 48:00Speaker 05

  They're very touched by that. I think the ironic thing about this song, Traces of You, is that to me originally, this one wasn't about him.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:08Speaker 05

  It was more, um, kind of universal or spiritual.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  It is, it's very much like a.

• 48:12Speaker 05

  And it's a happier song, but because he passed away while I was making the record, and then the other two songs you and I wrote together are about him, this one kind of ended up being in the same collection in my mind after a while. I think, so a lot of people heard it and listened to it as being very much about him, but, but for me originally, the song wasn't.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  It kind of reminds me, the sentiment reminds me of I Am Missing You.

• 48:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  In that it could kind of be anything, but it's also kind of like a prayer.

• 48:40Speaker 05

  It is like a prayer.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  Which is what I, I like about it.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  That's what I was writing about.

• 48:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:43Speaker 05

  Not to be too like, woo, about it, but.

• 48:45Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 48:46Speaker 05

  It was that connection.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  God, I've written more spiritual songs in the last five years than I ever thought I would.

• 48:51Speaker 05

  I know, I've loved watching you join me in hippie world over the last few years. I'm like, hey, Crystals.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  I feel like all I want to write is gospel songs, you know?

• 48:59Speaker 05

  That's beautiful. All right, let's see what happens. There's a lot of repeats, which actually makes me forget where things are, so.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  I know what you mean.

• 49:05Speaker 05

  I'll try.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  It's tricky to do the same stuff live.

• 49:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  I feel like if you could play any more rhythm, that might be helpful.

• 49:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, in the verse stuff.

• 49:19Speaker 03

  Like just more aggressively.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, okay, I'll do that from the beginning.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  I'm like, I can't hear you enough, but I don't know, I don't want to get off. I mean, I do want to get off. That's what she said.

• 49:30Speaker 05

  Sorry, microphone.

• 49:31Speaker 03

  About your mom.

• 49:33Speaker 05

  Your mom, not my mom.

• 49:35Speaker 03

  I know. I think it's funny that when we were like teenagers, we used to make all these your mom jokes.

• 49:40Speaker 05

  Because we didn't have the same mom.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Because we had your mom.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  It was like, your mom.

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, your mom said that. Well, your mom said that. Yeah, okay. Okay.

• 50:52Speaker 04

  Traces of you linger like a teardrop.

• 51:02Speaker 04

  Fresh upon the air. Play me like a rain cloud. Sounds upon the air.

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Linger like a teardrop.

• 51:23Speaker 04

  Fresh upon my heart's seams for you. Play me like a rain cloud. Sounds upon the air.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  Traces of you linger like a teardrop.

• 52:06Speaker 04

  Fresh upon the air. Play me like a rain cloud.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  Traces of you linger like a teardrop.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  Fresh upon my heart sings for you. Play me like a rain cloud.

• 53:24Speaker 04

  Sounds upon you.

• 53:33Speaker 03

  I loved your intro of it.

• 53:35Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 53:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 05

  There's a raga called Koshikthani, which just has like those five notes.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  What is it?

• 53:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, so no second and no fifth.

• 53:54Speaker 05

  I just think it has so much space for.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  That's so nice.

• 53:57Speaker 05

  It's really yearning and like, yeah, I just, I love it. And it was so funny because when we wrote Traces of You, I actually wrote the whole melody on the sitar in that raga. And then Nitin started playing guitar under and just suddenly was playing chords like really focused on the fifth. And it just cracked me up because it works so well. But I was like, okay, I guess we're not in that raga.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  I guess we're not gonna avoid the fifth.

• 54:22Speaker 03

  That's funny.

• 54:22Speaker 05

  So that's why in my solo, I'm like, oh, hang it. Okay.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  Well, that's kind of what I like about that song is that it, I couldn't figure out what he was playing, first of all. And then I like how it just kind of cycles through stuff, but then you can change it and it's over the same thing.

• 54:37Speaker 05

  It's a weird one to teach a band. Like every time you started, it's like, okay, so there's an A, then a B and an A and a B. But then I'm playing the B and you're playing the A and it swaps around.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  It's cyclical, but it's like random.

• 54:46Speaker 05

  It just flips.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I like that though. I love that kind of stuff.

• 54:49Speaker 05

  Deceptively simple.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:51Speaker 05

  Which, which pleases my complicated brain because I'm like, we're pretending it's simple, but actually.

• 54:57Speaker 03

  It's very complicated. You do have a complicated brain.

• 55:01Speaker 05

  I have a complicated brain. I also overcomplicate everything, which you're really good at not doing.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  I disagree. I think we have the same problem. Sarah, Sarah would disagree strongly with you.

• 55:11Speaker 05

  All I know is like all my tour manager friends say we're the best like musical tour manage people.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  Well, we're very on top of things.

• 55:22Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 55:22Speaker 03

  But sometimes it's, we're so on top of it that we overthink the future and all the scenarios that may arise.

• 55:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's like, it's like planning for every catastrophe.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  To adjust.

• 55:32Speaker 05

  But I think that comes from your years of touring. Like you're just, I'm just automatically scanning and preparing for like, this is going to not be there. So if I'm traveling for something, it'll be like, what do I carry in my hand luggage for if my luggage doesn't.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 55:42Speaker 05

  Arrive. Two sitars, stuff I need in each sitar box. Like there's just always planning.

• 55:46Speaker 03

  We're like the Terminator, scanning the future for.

• 55:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. I literally say it though. It's like something complicated happens in life. Like maybe there's like a lot to manage with two different kids' diaries or whatever. And it's like, I'm going to tour manage this.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  I bet your, your home, home calendar for the kids is very well thought out.

• 56:04Speaker 05

  It's beautiful.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  I bet.

• 56:05Speaker 05

  Can you do mine? It's color coded.

• 56:07Speaker 03

  Color coded. Can you do one for me?

• 56:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, maybe. Would you follow it though?

• 56:12Speaker 03

  No, I wouldn't make, I wouldn't actually make you do it.

• 56:15Speaker 05

  Confession, I own a laminator.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  A laminator?

• 56:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  I bought a label maker.

• 56:21Speaker 05

  I love my label maker.

• 56:22Speaker 03

  I never used it. I'm like that. Like I'll think all of these things through, but then I'll end up not finishing.

• 56:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, that too. My kids use the label maker more to just stick things on each other's doors that should not be said.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 56:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 03

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• 57:22Speaker 03

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• 57:32Speaker 06

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• 58:04Speaker 03

  What was that raga called?

• 58:06Speaker 05

  Koshikthani.

• 58:07Speaker 03

  Is that one you, okay, so you know me, I really don't know anything. I still don't completely understand ragas.

• 58:16Speaker 05

  Are you going to ask me to explain them?

• 58:18Speaker 03

  Yes, I am.

• 58:19Speaker 05

  It's actually really difficult.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  Well, you don't have to, you can give me the Cliff Notes version.

• 58:22Speaker 05

  So the Cliff Notes version is that a raga is a melody form.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:26Speaker 05

  That isn't a scale or a mode or a set of phrases or a song. It's not any of those things. It can, it can contain all of those things. Like a raga is, is based on a scale. Like every raga has a set of notes that it exists within, but you could have tons of ragas within that same set of notes.

• 58:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 58:44Speaker 05

  So then you get into more detail, like different ragas may have different ascending patterns and descending patterns that differentiate them from each other.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 58:51Speaker 05

  But then also phrases, recognizable characteristics, and most importantly, beyond all of those things that you could write down, there's a particular mood or a feeling or an association with that raga. So you might even have two ragas that are almost identical, but one of them is played like in the morning in a more solemn spiritual way. And one is more romantic and performed late at night. You know, so it's really about like learning the, the characters of them. And I remember when like our dad was teaching me, the thing that really helped me the most is he would always say, it's kind of like people. Like when you meet new people, sometimes they remind you of someone else. So at the beginning, when you kind of see that person, you're constantly thinking of the person you know really well, which could be that other raga.

• 59:33Speaker 05

  But the more you get to know that person, they start to exist like fully fleshed in their own.

• 59:37Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 59:37Speaker 05

  And you stop thinking about the other person. So you kind of have to get to know them to, to know who they are.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:43Speaker 05

  So there's like, that's why it's so much an immersion. It's about playing. It's about playing along with, learning from, because some aspects of it just, just can't be notated, can't be put.

• 59:52Speaker 03

  That's what makes it so mysterious.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, I guess.

• 59:55Speaker 03

  I think.

• 59:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think so. It can be really mysterious and elusive to people who are not coming from that tradition. Because it's so hard to step into it. Though I guess people who like come from there or grow up listening to it, like so many ragas would be like really recognizable to people really instantly. Even laypeople who, who don't play, they'll be like, oh, that's pilu or that's yaman kavian.

• 1:00:14Speaker 03

  Is it because of certain melodies as well?

• 1:00:16Speaker 05

  Well, I guess, yeah, some, some have really recognizable phrases and melodies, or some are just super popular. And therefore a lot of popular songs that people grow up knowing or hearing are in those ragas.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  They'll reference them.

• 1:00:29Speaker 05

  So they'll be a bit more embedded.

• 1:00:30Speaker 03

  So it made its way into popular music or Bollywood or.

• 1:00:32Speaker 05

  So just like Western classical music may have been a root for jazz, for, you know, folk music and then, you know, like all the kind of, the commonalities that exist in, in Western music that like all have evolved from each other. It's the same in Indian classical music. So even though like Indian pop or film music isn't classical music, it's grown and evolved from that root.

• 1:00:55Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:00:55Speaker 05

  So you will hear ragas in film music all the time, but maybe they're used in a kind of lighter, more accessible way.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  Oh my God, you're so smart.

• 1:01:04Speaker 05

  I just said a lot of words.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  I know. You're so good at explaining things. You're so, I like, well explained that I felt really satisfied by that explanation.

• 1:01:14Speaker 05

  Good. Thank you.

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  That sounds really beautiful though.

• 1:01:17Speaker 05

  It's really beautiful.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  I love the mood thing.

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, it's really beautiful.

• 1:01:20Speaker 03

  But you can still play a morning raga in the evening at a concert, for instance.

• 1:01:25Speaker 05

  That depends on who you talk to.

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:01:27Speaker 05

  People can be very purist about that.

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:01:29Speaker 05

  There's, there's two main classical styles in India. There's the, the Hindustani system that developed in the north and the Carnatic system in the south. And there are a lot of commonalities, but like in South Indian music, they don't have this time of day concept at all. It's just ragas have everything that I just told you minus associations like that. So you can hear any raga anytime. Hindustani music is really specific. Like there are sunset ragas, sunrise ragas. There's even like monsoon ragas, spring ragas, harvest ragas. You know, so there are certain things that if people really grow up with that, it feels jarring to them, to some people.

• 1:02:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Speaker 05

  To hear things at the wrong time. So that's why you occasionally you'll have like in music festivals, they'll do morning concerts. Or they'll do all night festivals where people perform through the night. So people stay up and listen to like people perform at 3:00 AM, 4:00 AM music that you wouldn't hear.

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  That's so crazy.

• 1:02:15Speaker 05

  It's pretty amazing.

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  Now I'm thinking about being awake at 1:00 AM last night with you and being like, I'm so tired.

• 1:02:21Speaker 05

  Do this. I know. I can't think like the last time I was at an all night concert, I was a kid and I think they just let me fall asleep on the seat.

• 1:02:28Speaker 03

  It's so beautiful if you can, if you can stay up for it and.

• 1:02:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  My mom told me about a concert she produced for our dad at the Cathedral St. John the Divine.

• 1:02:37Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Wow. Was that the all night one that he did?

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Speaker 05

  Yeah. And people still talk about those too. People could come up and be like, I remember when your dad played like eight hours through the night. And I'm like, I.

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  I can't even imagine. I think about like Bruce Springsteen doing four hour concerts and that just, that just makes me tired thinking of myself doing that.

• 1:02:56Speaker 05

  Even if I've practiced like in rehearsals and stuff eight hours, I'm so impressed with myself.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I love music, but you have to just get into a zone. It's a meditation thing, right?

• 1:03:05Speaker 05

  Very much so.

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  And then you get carried by the energy of it.

• 1:03:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  I love that. I don't know if I'll ever be able to do it.

• 1:03:12Speaker 05

  We can love it from afar.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. So what do you think, is it sacrilegious for me to try to play a raga with you?

• 1:03:19Speaker 05

  Not at all.

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  I didn't know if it was a, like a respect thing, but can you kind of help?

• 1:03:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think, I think.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  Teach me it?

• 1:03:27Speaker 05

  I think, so, so there are some ragas that get very, very nuanced and complex with the things we were talking about, like really specific phrases or twisty ascending or descending lines. And I think when we start playing, we always start with the slightly more scale based ragas. So then it's really just about understanding what scale that raga belongs to and then finding, finding your ways to improvise and be as variable as possible.

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:03:50Speaker 05

  But within that limitation. So you wouldn't like modulate or change out of that. So like there's loads of pentatonic ragas that are really just like.

• 1:04:01Speaker 05

  That's bhopali.

• 1:04:04Speaker 05

  Or there's durga.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  And it almost sounds like it's in a different, in G.

• 1:04:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then there's another, if we're still in D, there's one called ham sadhuni, which is really beautiful, which is...

• 1:04:25Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so pretty.

• 1:04:31Speaker 05

  The only thing within this raga that sometimes might happen is like a little focus on, after anything you've played,

• 1:04:40Speaker 05

  like to, to kind of pause on that note and give it some stress and then to resolve.

• 1:04:46Speaker 05

  So just chuck a couple of those in.

• 1:05:53Speaker 05

  So pretty.

• 1:05:55Speaker 03

  I like country it up a little. Well, it's funny because like the thought of doing this, but I don't have bendis on.

• 1:06:02Speaker 05

  But you're so good at that. Like you, you make...

• 1:06:04Speaker 03

  I try to, but it's, you know, I don't actually have access to those microtones on the piano.

• 1:06:10Speaker 05

  It's fascinating. There's some people, like over the years, there's like definitely people who've kind of started bringing in Western instruments into Indian classical music. There's, there's an incredible cellist who plays fully classical concerts. But of course, that's a little easier.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Speaker 05

  As far as the bendis.

• 1:06:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Speaker 05

  I love our official term, by the way.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  The bendis. I think I got that from Jack Black and Tanisha Stee.

• 1:06:31Speaker 05

  But yeah, on the piano, that's hard. But I have seen a few people who like really study and like just develop their style in a way to be as, as close to it as possible. Like the harmonium is a really common instrument accompanying vocalist. And they're crazy. Like they just...

• 1:06:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, they just do like really fast trails to, yeah.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 1:06:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. It's fascinating watching that different technique, like...

• 1:06:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:57Speaker 03

  That's so cool. So it starts with a slow bit, which is called the alap?

• 1:07:01Speaker 05

  Uh huh. If you're playing in a classical context, you'd introduce the raga in an alap. So it's like solo, rhythm free, just bringing out the character.

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  Okay. And then when do you get to the fast burning stuff?

• 1:07:13Speaker 05

  Whenever you want. Whenever you want, really.

• 1:07:16Speaker 03

  I, I really want you to play something.

• 1:07:18Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  To show your range because it's so insane how fast you can play. Girl, you got some chops.

• 1:07:25Speaker 05

  I like, I like playing fast.

• 1:07:26Speaker 03

  Well, you're good at it.

• 1:07:27Speaker 05

  You know I like playing fast.

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  I know you do and you're really good at it. So I don't know that I can hang at all, but I can cover like droney bits, but whatever. I want to hear you do something.

• 1:07:37Speaker 05

  That's so funny because I was like, I'm at like Nora levels of like speed right now. I'm like, I'll come to like the relaxed, slow songs level of practice. That sounded so much more insulting than I meant, but like...

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  I'm not insulted by, by being known for slow music. I know that about myself.

• 1:07:53Speaker 05

  Nice mid like melodic relaxed songs.

• 1:07:56Speaker 03

  I know that about myself. I have, I mean, I failed my classical jury. Hello. I have no technique because I...

• 1:08:02Speaker 05

  By the way, can we stop that? Because you're amazing.

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  Well, thank you.

• 1:08:04Speaker 05

  I literally watch your videos with people to go like, look at her like level of piano playing. She's so good. Like your voice is so amazing. I feel like people sometimes forget to notice how amazing your playing is.

• 1:08:13Speaker 03

  Thank you. I think I've been able to play a lot more piano lately. Once I stripped my band back to just bass and drums.

• 1:08:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 03

  Because I used to have like two guitar players on the stage, which was awesome for the music, but I didn't really, you know, there wasn't a ton of room.

• 1:08:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  I've really been going for it lately.

• 1:08:28Speaker 05

  Yeah. I don't feel like there's that many people in the world that like play at that level as an accompaniment to their own singing. I feel like it'll usually be someone else there doing that, you know?

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:37Speaker 05

  I think they're amazing.

• 1:08:38Speaker 03

  Well, again, like I feel like I've grown into this thing that I think is unique in my own. But I definitely don't have a lot of chops that are fast. So I, I don't know how you feel, but I would love to hear something.

• 1:08:49Speaker 05

  Oh, my God. Um, should we stick in that raga?

• 1:08:52Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:08:53Speaker 05

  And, okay.

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I will barely play. I'm just gonna stay out of your way.

• 1:08:58Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:08:59Speaker 03

  You could set it up. I'll just do like a drum.

• 1:10:32Speaker 03

  I did a hell that I was scared. All the time?

• 1:10:34Speaker 05

  I was like, oh, I don't know what to do.

• 1:10:36Speaker 03

  Oh, that's okay. Yeah. I was thinking about that. You, you did like a little thing on Instagram last month where you were doing this crazy counting thing.

• 1:10:45Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 03

  Like something like that.

• 1:10:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. Okay. Thanks.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, sorry.

• 1:10:49Speaker 05

  Okay, let's go into, let's go into...

• 1:10:52Speaker 03

  Is it cool that I just drone under it like that?

• 1:10:54Speaker 05

  Yeah. Can I give you a different thing to do?

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Speaker 05

  Um, so...

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  Actually, I was gonna ask about that. If, if you're emitting like the fifth from something, does the drone have to change then?

• 1:11:04Speaker 05

  I mean, within that context, the tonic would always stay the same. So even if you're changing, you could move.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  Nobody mean like the tan pura, do they have to change?

• 1:11:14Speaker 05

  The tan pura stays the same all the time. So the kind of tonic always stays the same. So when I'm playing with people like in a band, we'll move chords to give it a shape and a feeling, but we're still staying within the notes, knowing where the drone is. Like we don't move the bottom, if you know what I mean. Like I don't, I always think of sa in the same place within a song.

• 1:11:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. What should I do?

• 1:11:35Speaker 05

  Can you give me actually like a more of a focus on those notes?

• 1:11:42Speaker 05

  So we're still in D, but we're going into like maj kama.

• 1:11:53Speaker 05

  So it's like all the notes.

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  Maj kama?

• 1:12:00Speaker 05

  Maj kama.

• 1:12:01Speaker 03

  I've heard you say this so many times.

• 1:12:02Speaker 05

  I love this raga so much.

• 1:12:03Speaker 03

  Our dad say this. Yeah, this is what we're going to play a lot, right?

• 1:12:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:07Speaker 03

  Now we do much, but yes, that's a really bad impression.

• 1:12:14Speaker 05

  Every time you say something he said, you, you put the accent on. It's really funny.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Well, he had an accent.

• 1:12:19Speaker 05

  Yes, I know.

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  So do you.

• 1:12:22Speaker 03

  But he didn't have a traditional accent that I think of.

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  He had a really like softened accent.

• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  It was softened.

• 1:12:28Speaker 05

  Softened Indian accent.

• 1:12:29Speaker 03

  I mean, I guess he'd been all over.

• 1:14:31Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 1:14:32Speaker 05

  That was hilarious. Yeah, I think you mean all that fun, like you love that stuff, right?

• 1:14:39Speaker 03

  Give it to me.

• 1:14:40Speaker 05

  I love that stuff.

• 1:15:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:15:04Speaker 05

  There you go.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  It's like, fine.

• 1:15:06Speaker 05

  Thank you. I was like, I love just coming to do some relaxing songs.

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  I know, sorry.

• 1:15:11Speaker 05

  Do your thing.

• 1:15:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I wanted you to play fast for me.

• 1:15:14Speaker 05

  That's cute. I'll play fast for you.

• 1:15:16Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 1:15:16Speaker 05

  I'll play slow for you. I'll play medium for you.

• 1:15:19Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 1:15:20Speaker 05

  I've always...

• 1:15:21Speaker 03

  That is so impressive.

• 1:15:22Speaker 05

  No, I would just think this is the first time you've called me to play.

• 1:15:25Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:15:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Speaker 03

  You know why?

• 1:15:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, why? Because I've been wondering for years.

• 1:15:30Speaker 03

  No, because this sitar has such a specific sound.

• 1:15:34Speaker 05

  You know what? That's actually been one of the biggest challenges of it.

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  I was gonna ask about that.

• 1:15:38Speaker 05

  That's something I think about really consciously, and I still feel like that's something I want to work on so much more. Because it's so embedded in like people's subconscious.

• 1:15:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:15:46Speaker 05

  With the sound that our dad smashed through.

• 1:15:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Speaker 05

  So he kind of created something, which is so incredible. But that's just set the mold. Like, people hear the sitar and they think of like that popular culture phase, right?

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's always used as like the incidental music to a hippie scene.

• 1:16:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it's like someone goes to India, or someone goes to like a tarot card reader, or something, you know, insert whatever, and it'll be like, you know, magic carpet, incense, sitar.

• 1:16:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Speaker 05

  Wafting. And it's like, so as soon as people hear just that first note, and it's like...

• 1:16:18Speaker 03

  Or just the sympathetic strings.

• 1:16:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, just the sympathetic strings, and you're like, ugh, you know. So actually, like, that's something I think about really actively, is like, how to put it in different contexts. I feel like that's why I keep working with so many different band setups.

• 1:16:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Speaker 05

  Because it's like, what happens when I play sitar with an upright bass and a piano? Or what happens when it's with a clarinet and a drum kit? You know, and I just feel like just continuously putting it in these different spaces. It just kind of strips that exotic thing.

• 1:16:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:46Speaker 05

  And yeah, I really enjoy finding that.

• 1:16:48Speaker 03

  Well, you're good at finding it, but I wondered if you felt ever frustrated by the sound being so, not only like so generalized by people, but also just, it's a very specific sound.

• 1:17:00Speaker 05

  It's a very specific sound. I feel like I really enjoy writing for other people as well. Because then I get to think outside of my specific sound. And obviously, I've usually done that more in my own projects. But I would really love to develop more in that, in that way, like, you know, composing for other stuff.

• 1:17:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:17Speaker 05

  And just getting to explore that.

• 1:17:19Speaker 03

  Do you ever play piano anymore? Because I know you played for a long time when you were a kid.

• 1:17:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't play like play-play. But I'll, you know what, randomly, when I feel stressed out, I'll like sit down and do Hanan exercises or something. It's so weird. I find it calming.

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:17:31Speaker 05

  I find it calming.

• 1:17:32Speaker 03

  You would, my friend.

• 1:17:36Speaker 03

  You totally would. That does not surprise me. You're nuts.

• 1:17:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, because it's right there, and it's just easier to go and sit down and play the piano than to go and pick up my sitar and put my tune up.

• 1:17:44Speaker 03

  Playing music is a release for stress, but doing Hanan exercises is like...

• 1:17:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, that one, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  That's too funny.

• 1:17:52Speaker 05

  I think that like my brain, there's just something about like the, the clarity of that kind of thing. Like scales, I find calming. Like, I start slow and I, you know, and then I'll, and then I'll get a little faster.

• 1:18:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 05

  And then like, there's just something so clear about it and progressive. Whereas music in general is so open-ended. Like, when did you, when did you do a take that was better than the other take? It's so down to feeling, and it's ambiguous. And with something like scales, I can just sit down and kind of go like, I played that scale. I started it and I finished it. I went from the bottom of the piano to the top of the piano. And then I get up and I can like feel like I did something. I don't know.

• 1:18:27Speaker 03

  That's crazy. You crave structure.

• 1:18:30Speaker 05

  Right, like...

• 1:18:30Speaker 03

  You crave structure.

• 1:18:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  And we didn't even get into the whole time thing.

• 1:18:35Speaker 05

  There's a whole therapy session in there about why.

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  The counting stuff too.

• 1:18:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:18:40Speaker 03

  You have such a math brain.

• 1:18:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  And you, and you, I mean, you must also, just from playing this music and playing in different time signatures all the time. And was it you that taught us that trick? There's a bunch of numbers tricks, I feel like.

• 1:18:55Speaker 05

  I may have.

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  That you and then my dad taught us one, which was, we can't really get into it.

• 1:19:00Speaker 05

  Like three against four.

• 1:19:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like that stuff. Well, no, like this counting thing, and then it always ends, anyway. I don't know if we can get into it, but...

• 1:19:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, well, it's fascinating, and there's so much to...

• 1:19:08Speaker 03

  This is just the tip.

• 1:19:10Speaker 05

  There is just the tip.

• 1:19:11Speaker 03

  That's what your mom said.

• 1:19:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think there's, there's so much in there. There's a whole universe in there. But I found it really funny, because it's just, it's just coming from different places, right? And that's what I find so lovely about things like this, where it's like, where do you meet in the middle? Like, first of all, what's the middle? Like, are you coming more towards me, or am I moving more towards you?

• 1:19:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:29Speaker 05

  So like on that very first song we wrote together, "Easy", on "Breathing Under Water", where I, you know, I think in a cyclical manner, in an absolute rhythm cycle. So like, we may speed up or slow down, but if I've chosen that a song is in seven, or it's in 16, or whatever it is, that's what it's in. I can't help counting round and round. So wherever we move and start playing, I'm still thinking of like where the one is. And I don't know if you remember, like, there's a phrasing you use in the middle of that song, where you instinctively moved the one to, to hit where your...

• 1:19:58Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:58Speaker 05

  And it's like a change in the middle of the song, where now this is the one. And I swear, we stopped the recording, and you and I were talking for like an hour, where in my brain, I was like, yeah, can't move the one. And you're like, but it is here. Listen, like, there's a stress on that. And we eventually went your way, and I just got used to it, and it feels completely right.

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  Did we argue?

• 1:20:16Speaker 05

  I think it was like as calm and like studied of an argument as it could be in a recording studio with like 10 other people there, but...

• 1:20:23Speaker 03

  I don't remember that.

• 1:20:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was like a long one, where Kersh just, because Kersh did that album with me, Kersh Kalei, and he just was like, I'm just gonna sit back on this one and wait till you guys decide.

• 1:20:32Speaker 03

  Wait till you decide where one is.

• 1:20:34Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:20:35Speaker 03

  But that song we did earlier, "Those Sweet Words",

• 1:20:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 03

  is like that. One is always kind of moving.

• 1:20:39Speaker 05

  Which is why it took me a while to figure it out.

• 1:20:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, and I don't even...

• 1:20:43Speaker 05

  Like, I've written out like where I'm like, and, and a bar, and a bar, and three notes, and then I come in.

• 1:20:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like, I feel like that stuff I find very easy when I'm not counting. And if I have to start counting it, I can't remember it.

• 1:20:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:59Speaker 05

  Which is also like a really correct and beautiful approach. It's just...

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  No, it's just funny. That's not where you come from.

• 1:21:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I have to like slip my brain across into like another way.

• 1:21:10Speaker 03

  That's what she said.

• 1:21:11Speaker 05

  Slip my brain across? Really?

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  It's never not funny. Oh my god.

• 1:21:17Speaker 05

  Yeah. What I love is that I'm always the one that does it, but right now, you're the rude one.

• 1:21:21Speaker 03

  Right now, I'm the one doing it, because you're trying to be...

• 1:21:23Speaker 05

  Because I'm busy doing your...

• 1:21:24Speaker 03

  You're trying to stay professional.

• 1:21:26Speaker 05

  No, I'm just busy doing your mom.

• 1:21:28Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:21:32Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:21:33Speaker 03

  Oh my god, that is so creepy on so many levels. I love you so much. That was so...

• 1:21:41Speaker 05

  I love you too.

• 1:21:43Speaker 03

  I knew this would be so fun with you.

• 1:21:46Speaker 05

  But I think it's dangerous, like when you do interviews with people you know, because you just can't help being more, yeah, through the filters.

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  There's no filter here.

• 1:21:55Speaker 05

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• 1:23:28Speaker 05

  So you want to try our last song? "Unsaid"? So we're gonna end with the emotional tearjerker.

• 1:23:36Speaker 03

  Heavy one.

• 1:23:36Speaker 05

  Oh god.

• 1:23:43Speaker 03

  Thanks for teaching me the raga stuff.

• 1:23:45Speaker 05

  I, I, well, I don't know.

• 1:23:49Speaker 03

  You just look really emotional.

• 1:23:52Speaker 03

  You know what's funny is, I remember when I was in India once with, I don't even know if you were there, actually. I think it was, I was going through that weird time and I went.

• 1:24:04Speaker 05

  When you came with your guitar?

• 1:24:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I came with my guitar. Yep.

• 1:24:10Speaker 05

  When you visited India with your guitar?

• 1:24:12Speaker 03

  With my guitar, only.

• 1:24:14Speaker 05

  You were like teaching yourself to play guitar that trip.

• 1:24:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I had already started, but yeah, I was really into guitar for a while and that was definitely the phase. And I remember our dad, I think I asked him to maybe like teach me something. I was a little shy to ask him and he was probably shy to offer.

• 1:24:30Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:24:31Speaker 03

  I think, I think that's, it was just like so funny that we'd never sat and really done anything musical. And I was probably 28 or 27 at the time and, and.

• 1:24:44Speaker 05

  Oh, okay.

• 1:24:46Speaker 03

  The breakup trip.

• 1:24:47Speaker 05

  Oh, I was thinking of the one when you were 20 and came with your guitar and stayed and I was there. And you were writing Come Away With Me and What Am I To You?

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  Oh, that was fun.

• 1:24:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, okay, so I wasn't there.

• 1:24:58Speaker 03

  No, you weren't there. This is a later trip where it was very like soul searching for me.

• 1:25:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, so you were, you were with him in Delhi?

• 1:25:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was with him and it was nice to have, I mean, I missed you, but it was kind of nice to just be forced to spend time with him in that way. Because, as you know, it was hard for me to sort of get in there sometimes and, and, and just like my own stuff. And so we sat in his little music room and I had my guitar, which was very funny.

• 1:25:29Speaker 05

  Amazing.

• 1:25:30Speaker 03

  And I wasn't really trying to play anything specific, but I just had it. And he was trying to teach me a song.

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  But I think I was a little rigid in wanting to be loose. And he was a little rigid in wanting to teach me properly this song, when I was like, hey, man, I just want to like.

• 1:25:50Speaker 05

  I just want to play.

• 1:25:51Speaker 03

  I just want to like, yeah, I think I was, it was a little awkward.

• 1:25:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Speaker 03

  And it was really well intended on both of our parts.

• 1:25:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Speaker 03

  But it was funny because I wasn't really in the place to be a pupil.

• 1:26:03Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:26:03Speaker 03

  And I don't think.

• 1:26:04Speaker 05

  So you still wanted to connect that way?

• 1:26:05Speaker 03

  I wanted to connect musically, but I didn't know how to sit and just be taught.

• 1:26:09Speaker 05

  I know exactly what you mean, because I think, you know, in, in a way that is such a core of why he was so great at what he did, he was a teacher through and through.

• 1:26:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:18Speaker 05

  Like he just had this like passionate obsession with sharing his art and his music. So I feel like every collaborative experience he ever had, if you look through his career, was always about like teaching Indian music and putting it, it wasn't like a jam session. It wasn't like, I'm gonna play, like, I'm so into like, I'm gonna play flamenco on this guitar, I'm gonna try and learn other, whereas he was coming from that place of let me introduce you to this thing, which had never happened before. But I don't feel like he ever moved out of that. So right till the end, he was teaching. So I totally get why that would have been an odd plug-in between the two of you.

• 1:26:49Speaker 03

  It was like a near, it was like a near miss. But I mean, it was still a really nice memory. It definitely, there was nothing, there was no like fighting.

• 1:26:57Speaker 05

  Oh, totally, yeah.

• 1:26:59Speaker 03

  But it was funny and it was so nice to just be able to have you explain it. You know, in a way I could hang with, you know.

• 1:27:09Speaker 05

  Love you.

• 1:27:09Speaker 03

  I love you too. Thanks for doing this with me. And it's funny that we're in LA together.

• 1:27:16Speaker 05

  I'm so happy to be here.

• 1:27:17Speaker 03

  And we're gonna go to the Grammys tomorrow together. And you're gonna perform.

• 1:27:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:21Speaker 03

  And 20 years ago, we were both at the Grammys together.

• 1:27:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, we've both been nominated in the middle a couple of times at the same time, but we've not been here together.

• 1:27:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:30Speaker 05

  So 20 years ago, when your world changed.

• 1:27:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, but you were there.

• 1:27:36Speaker 05

  I loved being there for that.

• 1:27:36Speaker 03

  You were nominated that year and it was like.

• 1:27:39Speaker 05

  I remember like through the night, we just kept going to the bathroom together and it was just like, we'd be like.

• 1:27:42Speaker 03

  Do you? Because I don't remember much.

• 1:27:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, because you must have been in shock.

• 1:27:45Speaker 03

  I was hungry too.

• 1:27:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, you were hungry.

• 1:27:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:48Speaker 05

  And you drank a lot and you needed to pee a lot. So we kept going to the bathroom and in the bathroom, we'd be like, oh my God, what's happening? This is crazy. And then we'd go back out there and it was like, whoa. Yeah.

• 1:27:58Speaker 03

  That was a wild time.

• 1:27:59Speaker 05

  Crazy times.

• 1:28:01Speaker 03

  All right, so this is the song you wrote the lyrics to that I put music to. And I changed what, like one lyric?

• 1:28:07Speaker 05

  Yes. Yeah, I wrote the words on the plane on the way to come see you.

• 1:28:12Speaker 03

  Really? And this is about a year after our dad died?

• 1:28:14Speaker 05

  Nope, 30 days.

• 1:28:16Speaker 03

  Are you serious?

• 1:28:16Speaker 05

  I am serious.

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  I didn't realize that.

• 1:28:18Speaker 05

  Yep, I was on the plane 29 days after he passed away.

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  I don't remember that that was that soon.

• 1:28:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 03

  Oh, so it was really raw.

• 1:28:25Speaker 05

  It was raw.

• 1:28:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right now.

• 1:28:33Speaker 03

  I think you started. Do you do like a?

• 1:28:36Speaker 05

  Oh, yes, you're right. I can start.

• 1:29:10Speaker 03

  Love wasn't left unsaid.

• 1:29:17Speaker 03

  Thank you, that was left unsaid.

• 1:29:26Speaker 03

  I know you may be left unsaid.

• 1:29:34Speaker 03

  I don't know what was said.

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  My heart, my heart speaks to you. Your heart knows it was spoken true. In body, blood and soul I came. I walked in love and not in shame. Hearts can speak when lips can't.

• 1:30:22Speaker 03

  There was more, I lost my chance. Were there things I should have done? It's too late now that you're gone.

• 1:30:47Speaker 03

  Love wasn't left unsaid.

• 1:30:56Speaker 03

  Thank you, that was left unsaid.

• 1:31:04Speaker 03

  I see you may be left unsaid.

• 1:31:13Speaker 03

  I don't know what was said.

• 1:31:21Speaker 03

  Fortune smiled on me all night. Had the chance to say goodbye. In your eyes, it was love I had. There wasn't much, we left unsaid. Love.

• 1:33:19Speaker 03

  Wow, that was so pretty. Thanks for listening to this episode. Sarah, hi.

• 1:33:26Speaker 00

  Hi. Very meditative, that last one. It's so interesting that you reconnected with her later, but you've both developed your personalities in music and then come together. These songs are such like an encapsulation of like your two worlds together.

• 1:33:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. Also, from the moment we met, I think we felt connected or similar in some way, even personality wise, even though there's so many ways we're very different, there's just something-

• 1:33:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's like a family thing, you know?

• 1:34:00Speaker 03

  I guess so.

• 1:34:01Speaker 00

  It's this comfort and natural feeling.

• 1:34:03Speaker 03

  No, I mean, it is. It's just a weird thing, you know? We could be-

• 1:34:08Speaker 00

  It feels like there's an inside joke behind everything you do and say.

• 1:34:12Speaker 03

  It does. Yeah, I kind of feel like it does, but it's usually a your mom joke, but um-

• 1:34:19Speaker 00

  Who's mom?

• 1:34:20Speaker 03

  Exactly. I like how we kind of revert back to our teenage selves, too, kind of when we got really close as teenagers, basically. I love her so much.

• 1:34:34Speaker 00

  I also learned a lot about traditional Indian classical music, which, you know, and just the sitar in general.

• 1:34:41Speaker 03

  It's such a different world.

• 1:34:42Speaker 00

  Yes. I mean, training, her level of training is like an Olympic athlete level.

• 1:34:48Speaker 03

  It kind of is. But then you still have to have the emotion and the heart.

• 1:34:51Speaker 00

  Oh, God, yeah. Watching her play is like incredible.

• 1:34:54Speaker 03

  It's beautiful. And if you have never seen her play live, please go check her out. Check her website or her socials because it's a really special thing to see. And I encourage you to do so.

• 1:35:10Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:35:11Speaker 03

  Thanks so much for listening. Oh, excuse me. Hey.

• 1:35:16Speaker 00

  Someone's in town.

• 1:35:17Speaker 03

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:35:22Speaker 00

  Don't forget to subscribe to Norah Jones is Playing Along wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss a new episode.

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  If you're wondering about the songs from this episode, the first song we played was called "The Sun Won't Set" from her album called Traces of You. The second song was "Those Sweet Words" from my album called Feels Like Home. And the third song we did was the title track from her album, Traces of You. We did a traditional raga called Majkamaj, and we also did another song from Traces of You called "Unsaid." This episode was recorded at Golden Hour Sound in Glendale, California, by John Yeston, assisted by Eric Rosensky, mixed by Jamie Landry, edited by Sarah Oda, additional engineering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Frye, photography by Shirvan Linnaz, additional recording by

• 1:36:13Speaker 03

  Matt Marinelli, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, executive producers Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runtog, marketing lead Allison Cantor-Graeber, produced by me and my Oda.

• 1:36:26Speaker 06

  Hey, it's Covino and Rich Davis from Covino and Rich. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks. Combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which can mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:37:00Speaker 03

  If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:37:35Speaker 04

  This is Danielle Fishel from Pod Meets World. Every purchase is a financial decision, so it's worth asking, what am I getting out of this? If you're using the Chase Freedom Flex card, you can maximize your cash back on things you need. Groceries and gas, cash back. Dinner, cash back on that, too. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. Sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N.A. Member, FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 1:38:12Speaker 04

  What's that? My fresh detector. Uh, your what? There it is. What is it detecting? Fresh produce, fresh meat. Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh? Apparently, we celebrate. At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 1:38:39Speaker 03

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.