Norah Jones Is Playing Along
Original podcast
Pianist, composer, and bandleader Jason Moran brings a deep well of musical curiosity to this episode.
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This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Jason Moran.
Hi, I'm Nora. This is Sarah.
Hello, hello.
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to our show. Today, we have the acclaimed pianist, composer, and innovator at the forefront of contemporary jazz, Jason Moran.
Also a fellow Texan.
Fellow Texan. He is a MacArthur Genius Grant recipient, and he has multiple award-winning albums.
He's great, and I love him. I've known him a long time. He's such a great musician. Another brilliant piano player played my piano. I didn't mean I was the other brilliant one. I meant like, another guest who's a brilliant piano player played my piano.
This episode is really packed with a lot of incredible music. It's just like, completely seamless between the music and the talking, I feel like.
Oh, there's a lot of music in this one.
A lot, yeah. And, you know, you talk about your shared Texas roots.
He feels like family for many reasons to me. Partly the Texas thing, and then also the Blue Note Records thing. Because we've been on the same label, back in the beginning, we were on the same label, so.
Yeah.
You know.
Had a little parallel moment.
Familial. I hope you enjoy the episode with Jason Moran.
Alicia and I were playing in the church for this festival, Moulder Festival, it's like way up north. Gorgeous. And then, so they had us kind of waiting in this room, which is like, directory or whatever. And they had this pump organ in there. And I sat at that thing, and Alicia was like, "Oh, God."
Here we go.
And when I got back to New York, I was like, "I gotta find a pump organ." And I found one in Midtown, in somebody's storage, for like $50.
Wow. Was it kind of like that size?
It was this size. And it had the cabinet on it, cabinet on top too. But it wasn't, the person who...
Who had it put a actual air pump in it. So you just press your foot down once and then it blew air into it.
Oh, so that they wouldn't have to work the feet? That's some lazy.
It was quite lazy, but it sure sounded great. And then I sold it to Brooklyn Recording.
Oh, cool.
So I don't know.
I probably played it.
I don't think so. I think he probably was like, man, what the fuck is this? Because the pump, the air pump was pretty loud.
Oh, so it was kind of went against the whole point?
Kind of.
How much did you use it before you sold it?
I used it a lot in the house.
Oh, you did?
And my kids would get on and get all scary. And like play weird stuff. It was great. Also, it was beautiful.
Instruments used to be a lot more beautiful than they are now.
They're so ornate. And I had this in my kind of dining room for a while.
Right.
And it really was beautiful. It would get played every once in a while, but mostly it was furniture. It looked pretty.
Yeah, I put art on it. I don't know, like instruments have like lives and they're like made of wood that come from trees.
And then they, and then people sit at them and unlock stuff. And I feel like that's part of our job.
It's the fun part?
Yeah. I don't know if it's fun sometimes. As you can tell on my Friday, I had therapy this morning too. My shit's a little bit all over the place.
That's okay, that's perfect.
That's great. Well, it's not fun if you can't unlock it. But don't you feel like you usually can?
If I'm with the right people, yes.
And I don't know. So I think when I, look, when we first started making music, we were, I mean, at least for me, I was just trying to make music. I wasn't even sure what it was for. You know what I mean?
Like you're young, so you're like, oh, is that the right E7?
Does it matter?
Am I going to A minor or am I going to D7? Oh, my God, okay, wow, how will I get there? And those small decisions. And then I think over time, learning that those decisions meant something maybe about life that I didn't, no one taught me like when they were teaching me harmony.
And then I was like, oh shit, okay. So, okay, this means a little bit more than just playing the right chord.
You know this.
What's the best part? Yeah. Forgetting what the right chord is and then moving on to what it means.
Inside you.
And finding that.
And finding it and listening to it change. And making sure that you don't mind the changes.
Exactly.
I think that's my place where I am now.
Making sure that I don't mind the changes that are happening. And I don't mean like, I don't mean like, changes in music. I just mean in myself.
Well, this is perfect. You're the perfect guest for this podcast.
And I'm glad you have a furry friend next to me that's like.
I thought you might like that.
Can I gush for a second? I'm sorry, can I do that for a second?
Sure.
Because on the way here, I was, so I don't know, years ago, when Alicia and I had twins. Twins, raising kids in New York is like real hard.
Especially with twins.
Twins is difficult. And Sunrise may have just been out.
Okay.
That was like every day for about two years.
Really?
The record start to finish.
That's amazing.
So this morning, I was telling Malcolm, who's now 17, the six foot three ballet dancer.
That's also amazing.
I'm going to see Norah Jones today. I said, you know, we used to listen to her like every day for a couple of years when you were like a baby. And then I played some, and he was like, oh yeah, that sounds like music that I like. I was like, yeah, motherfucker, we put that in you.
He doesn't, he doesn't probably actually remember it at all.
I was like, we placed your taste. What are you talking about? Act like you just came up with this on your own. Anyway, but then I was also re-listening to, because I think right at that time, like, okay, piano playing is a thing. And then piano playing in groups with a certain kind of energy is a thing. So you figure out a certain kind of way that your muscles move to make music. And then listening to your piano playing. I'm just going to talk about your piano playing. So much during that record. My whole is, I know it, how much my style changed.
That's crazy. You're crazy.
No, no, any kind of two-handed response to a melody line. It's because I was listening to you for that long. And you know, like Shirley Horn, right? She has a way that she sings and plays, which is about space. But she does like something very kind of abstract with texture. Whereas you were like placing these responses. The things Billie Holiday might think, but wasn't playing the piano. And I was like, oh, okay, wait, okay. So then when I started working with bands that would add, that had a certain space in it, especially when working with guitar players. I was like, oh, I'm going to learn how to use space. And I'm going to learn how to respond to phrases by just playing.
You know what I'm saying? Come on.
They'd be like, oh, man, Jason, that's nice. I was like, well, you know, that's really an honor joke.
That's hilarious. Well, you're going to make me cry, first of all.
I just, I would make sure that that's said.
That's really sweet.
If no one really talks about your piano playing, I'm going to talk about your piano playing. Because the, the feel you have, with the space you make around the voice, and then the way you respond. And then the solos too. All that, man, like, so that record was like, just like, when you listen to something for a while, it has a way of like, kind of like showing up as a, as a reference point.
You know, and, and, and for me, a high watermark reference point.
That's so great. Thank you.
I won't even try to say that on, on record now that I'm sitting that.
I really appreciate that. You're so sweet. I, I think that record, um, I, I love that record, but I think it, it was a little all over the place. And, um, because I was kind of finding my way for the second record.
And some of it, I love, love, and some of it, I, I kind of forgot about because I don't play those songs much anymore. And we did a lot of songs by the band, which was really fun. Like the, the, my band at the time, everybody had a song on their record. So it was sort of collaborative.
But you know about that octave stuff?
Tell me.
The two octave?
That's that, that thing I do a lot. I totally ripped that from Oscar Peterson, except not as fast, by the way, obviously.
Speed.
Yeah, and, um, Jobim. All that Brazilian stuff.
Oh, yeah, gling, gling, gling, gling. I hear that. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very true. I like that.
So, yeah, that's kind of where I got it.
Nah, it works though. I mean, you know, like, I think probably the beautiful part about music leaving its, its own space is it finds a way to kind of like plant, be planted in another garden and like grow a little bit differently.
Totally.
And you almost redistribute the stuff that, that seemed to work in a, in like, say, a straight ahead jazz context like Oscar Peterson. But like, you know, I always often think of like those saxophonists, like Johnny Hodges and Duke Ellington's band, the way he could bend a note. And then the way, like in Indian classical music, you hear the saxophone, it's like, like you hear pitch as a, as a, as a thing around the world that really can waver. And, uh, but I love hearing and understanding that these small things connect to a lot of different places.
Yeah. We all know where we kind of get them or we don't.
And, but they've all been around, but not the way we do them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slow Oscar Peterson down. I like that.
Yeah, I mean, I could never play as fast as Oscar Peterson, but he did that two octave
That's true.
line thing.
Oh, my God. It's phenomenal. Yeah.
Um, wow. This is so awesome. It's so good to see you. It's been about, I know how long it's been because I remember my baby, I have my baby with me and I know how old he is. So it's been almost 11 years since I've seen you.
Wow.
And, um, so it's just really lovely to see you.
Yeah, you too.
Do you feel like playing a song?
Yeah?
I'll try, yeah.
Or like what, am I gonna play a song? Or you play a song?
Well, I don't know. I really like that Curtis song you suggested.
Oh, my God, yeah.
The Curtis Mayfield song.
I was thinking that would be fun to try.
What do you think?
Yeah, sure. Let's try "The Makings of You." I think the other day I was listening to "Move On Up," really. And it sent me to the piano like, oh, let me just try to get that strumming that's in that song. And also, I needed that song that day.
And then it led to "Makings of You." And I was like, wait a minute, do I not know how to play "Makings of You" on the piano?
I mean, it's so good.
And then I was like, wait a minute, Jason, come on, go back to school right quick and sit down for a while.
Is that what was happening? Because I asked you if you could think of a cover we could do together. And you're like, well, I've been inside this song all day.
I had, I took the beat from "Makings of," I mean, the beat from "Move On Up." There's like this drum break, an extended version, and I slowed it way down. And I just put it on, and like for an hour, I just played, you know.
A little sugar.
Honeysuckle land, A great big expression of happiness. Boy, you couldn't miss.
With a dozen roses. Such a wonderful, astounding The joy of children laughing around you. These are the makings of you. Is it true? The makings of you?
Righteous way to go.
Little one would know Or believe if I told them so. Your second to none. The love of all mankind Should reflect some sign Of these words I've tried to recite. They are close but not quite. Almost impossible to do. Reciting the makings of you.
The righteous way to go.
Little one would know or believe if I told him so. You're second to none. The love of all mankind should reflect some sign. Of these words I've tried to decide. They are close, but not quite. Almost impossible to do. Residing in the makings of you.
Oh, that's so pretty.
It is pretty. My God, it's so pretty. I mean, Curtis Mayfield.
I know, he's the best.
You know, I think about like, I think specifically about Black Valseto.
Well, it's so cool that he's singing and I'm not even changing the key. And it's still high for me, you know? But I didn't change the key at all, and it's great.
These people who can do that, you know? Prince or Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye. I think about the instrument too, the piano, like the way to, to almost... Imitate falsetto at the piano. Sometimes that's about that thing that we were talking about before, the double octave thing.
It's a way to kind of like, give a sense that the note that you might have in your body has a ghost that lives a little bit higher.
I like that. I've never thought of it that way.
So both of these are present at the same time. The double consciousness, you know, like it's like a double thing. So these people like Curtis Mayfield writing these songs that are like so tender also, so fragile.
They feel like so good in a time when people are doing some other version of some other thing, there's some other performance that is less fragile, less tender.
So I think when I heard that just the other day, I was like, oh gosh. So I'm glad you asked. I was like, oh come on, can we try that?
It's so pretty. It's just such a deep song and it's also, it's easier to receive something so beautiful and deep if it's fragile, I think, you know, sometimes.
Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you know, but we moved to New York.
I don't know why we live here sometimes.
We moved here. Alvin was wondering how you felt about being in Brooklyn all these years.
Yeah. Yeah, I feel kind of stuck here. Like I can't get out of it. I mean, we're both from Texas.
Right? You're from Houston.
From Houston.
Okay, arts magnet.
Arts, yeah, come on, HSPVA.
You had Glasser on here.
We know all these people.
Yeah, this is, you know, but also like when I was in high school, you know, Booker T was, was our battle school.
No, I know. I know. But I never got that because I feel like I just met so many people from, from the Houston school.
And vice versa.
I never felt competitive with any of them because I wasn't like you and, and Robert and, you know, Shawn Martin and everybody. You guys were a little more on the same plane. I was kind of like down here doing my little still learning chords.
Just watch.
I was like, I can sing though. I can't play fast, but I can sing.
Yeah, I was just in Houston last week and I have been spending the full year, it's a year now, playing mostly Ellington concerts.
In celebration of his 125th birthday.
Oh, is that what it is?
So, right, so like I've just been all around the world playing these Ellington shows.
That sounds really fun.
Yes, and really challenging and really good for me because as a pianist, he is not to be messed with.
No.
Just as a pianist, okay, then we want to get into his songs, okay, wow. And then you want to get into what his songs could mean. Like, keep sifting through the layers.
There's so many layers, yeah.
But I played this concert last week with the high school big band. Like, I was like, I want to play a full show with you all.
From the school?
From the school.
That's so special.
It felt, it felt good and these kids were taking risks that, I was like, okay, the pros don't do that.
I mean, you know, maybe it's because they're kids or, you know, but, but I felt like they had a kind of recklessness with the music that I was really appreciative of. And also I felt like, oh, that's kind of what the school wants to, wants to make. Is like some restless students who want to wrestle with music, or wrestle with dance, or wrestle with theater, wrestle with art. And my gosh, we're going to need their, their sensibility.
Yes.
So I look forward to these kids kind of coming out onto the scene in the next 10 years because they'll, they'll have some solution points that I think our generation just wasn't, you know, they're just another crew. They have a following, first of all.
They have a whole other level of knowledge also of, of stuff that's out there that we didn't completely have.
Yeah, I was going to say that kids are like a,
like a song you have to keep playing.
Yes. That's good. Yeah.
Like, you know, like, and then they're gonna, you know.
One day they'll play themselves.
Right, and then, and, you know, they'll know how to sing it and they'll, that's what I'm kind of watching, the 17-year-olds. Look, they're kind of, they kind of know their song.
Already?
Okay, great.
They're like grown, basically.
A little bit, a little bit.
Is this their last year in school?
They have another year.
Oh, okay, cool, so you're not quite there.
Wow, I can't imagine, it's going to happen in like five minutes.
Yeah, but, you know, I mean, I think.
When we signed up for this stuff, you know,
I didn't know how much my music would change by raising people.
Interesting.
I was like so thankful.
Can you, can you say more? Can you like put that into an example?
Or is it, is it clear?
Maybe this is a perfect segue, but uh, oh, very clear.
I started doing the Fats Waller show because I needed a place for my kids to act a fool. Run up on stage, run around, yell in the audience because I was meant to be making a party, not a concert. The Fats Waller show was always a party. I wore a papier-mache mask of Fats Waller.
You played the part more.
Yeah. Like, no, this is a, this is supposed to be fun. He's fun.
In a dark time. And, um, and the kids should feel like this is theirs.
Like they're part of it. So they would be part of the show?
Yeah, if they were there.
They could run around and do anything because it was supposed to be a dance party. So like that's like.
So fun.
I mean, I would test songs on them. I'd be in the house like trying to figure out like this song Fats Waller has called Yacht Club Swing. And I was like trying to play it and then Malcolm, who's the dancer now, but he would start dancing and he was like, "Come on daddy, come on daddy." And I was like, "Oh, I hear that."
So they were like, they were ground zero for like, is this good?
That's what I mean.
I know what you mean.
They were like quality control.
That's cool.
Could it affect them? Could it affect the kids?
Or does it go completely over their head and they don't care about it?
You know what though? But I mean, look, kids who grow up with parents who do a lot of their work at home, they absorb so much of it. They don't even think like Alicia warming up, doing lip trills and, you know, loud operatic singing at all times of the day and night. You're used to that sound. You're not, you don't, I mean, they also, they had that in the womb.
So they're not, they don't think of it as like, um, dad's doing weird music. They, at least, not to me. Maybe they think that, but maybe they don't tell me. But.
Mine tell me when they don't like it. They're very clear.
There was one show, I guess, when. I was playing at the old stone that John Zorn used to have in the Lower East Side and was playing with his drummer and bass player. And the boys were there, they were sitting on the floor, right in front of the band. We were like thrashing. Then it came a bass solo and then Jonas just went, shh, to the bassist. Shh, shh, shh, shh. I was like, okay.
It's not cool.
But you know, also, like, I don't know, sometimes the kids read is... I mean, you know, it hurts sometimes.
It hurts, but you don't need that many bass solos, let's be honest.
Anyway, but yeah, no, I really, I also really appreciate the, the young minds. Cause they, cause they aren't like beholden to the same things that we think are important.
You know?
Not at all. Yeah. It's the best.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's something. I don't know. Yeah. So I do, that's why I was gonna say, oh, you wanna try Fat Swaller?
Yeah, I think we should. Why not? Yeah. That's, that's sounds, I'm sorry I missed that show. You ever do it again?
I, I have to do it again.
Who are the artists who are aware enough of the time to know, maybe not know all the way a hundred percent consciously, but know what the public needs?
Maybe it's what they needed.
And them. Oh my gosh. And he, I mean, he died young.
And younger, um, but exactly. He's gotta share the stuff, the feeling of the people, his, his own inner battle, his drinking battle that took him out in the end and, you know. When he passed away, he was cremated and his ashes were spread across Harlem in, uh, in, in, in a, in an airplane or helicopter. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, Fat Swaller is of Harlem. The reason I live in Harlem is because, so I could still have some of his dust.
That's amazing. I never thought of that.
All these people, I live in Harlem because of that piano history that's up there. Duke Ellington and Mary Lou Williams and Fat Swaller, you know, like, all these people that would be on the block, James P. Johnson, Willie Lyon Smith, like these people who I think like impact how the piano is played. And then, you know, but they lived in a neighborhood and they traded songs and
And the windows were open.
Windows were open.
You can hear the piano.
That's my favorite sound when you catch it.
Yeah, that's so rare.
It's almost never anymore.
Yeah. Oh, my God, you bring that up.
Right?
Um, maybe I can't wait till the spring over my window.
It'll have to battle.
Play for the neighborhood.
I gotta battle the dumpster in the back.
Yeah, exactly. Play for the garbage man. Get up early and do it.
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She'd throw things, wander, and started hoarding. Mom's Alzheimer's was already so hard, but then we found out she had agitation that may happen with dementia due to Alzheimer's disease. And that was a different kind of difficult. So we asked her doctor for more help.
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Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren. To this day, Ordinary would not have done anything, and I would have not been able To put it out if Book Talk didn't back it up and if my wife and her friend didn't back it up. Amazing. Pretty crazy how like, just one thing. Right. I mean, you, I bet you, we could point to nine different things in our careers where it's just one thing all of a sudden. If that one thing didn't happen, then I wouldn't be here. What you're talking about right now is what I've been talking about since the beginning of my career.
There's these things outside of you that make everything happen. These other forces somehow came into contact with each other and helped propel you to this place. It's just insane. Experience before the moment. A Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
No one to talk with, all by myself. No one to walk with, but I'm happy on myself. Ain't misbehavin', I'm savin' my love for you. For you, I know for certain. The one I love, I'm through with flirtin'. It's just you I'm thinkin' of. Ain't misbehavin', I'm savin' my love for you. For you, for you, for you, for you, for you.
Sorry, I came in singing.
I like that.
I knew I was gonna sing, but not play.
Okay, right. Come on, isn't that why I keep reminding myself and the students that I work with, that's why you play this kind of music?
Why?
Meaning like that things can happen that you haven't planned for.
Yeah, I knew if I came in, it would be cool. You know, I knew you weren't expecting it, but that if I did, it would be okay.
That's right.
I mean, look, there's other music you can play where the map is there for you.
But I think we chose music that like lives a little bit more. People like to say organic, but...
It sounds cheesy.
It's like, what was organic before they started saying that word?
Exactly, everything was organic.
But it does like just live, though.
Yeah, I also, I just, I wanted you to play the stride too some more. Like, it sounds so good.
I mean, like that stride stuff.
You're good at it.
Is, I mean, it's the thing I came to New York for.
Because I felt like, um, I came to New York to study with Jackie Byard at Manhattan School of Music.
It was really clear.
Did you come at 18, like, right after school?
Right after school.
Thank God I had a scholarship. Thank God my parents were like, sure.
And did you live in the dorm, or what?
I lived in the dorm.
And were you just like, this is crazy, or you just go and see so much music that you were excited?
Yeah, you're in New York City, where the music lives on the street. And, uh, it's the 90s, so like, it's also what has become known as the Golden Age of hip-hop. So just the streets itself was, was kind of incredible. And, um, but Jackie Byard was like, he played with Charles Mingus, he played with Eric Daughtry, played with Sam Rivers, he plays all this kind of weird history of piano. And he cares about it enough to not stop playing it.
Meaning like, the stuff that went out of style, he thought, no, there's something to do with it. And he definitely gave me that, like, here's yours, here's your, um, mission, you know? Don't ever tire of history. That was like his thing.
That's a great way to think about it.
I mean, and I mean, it's also challenging because you'll watch your peers, many of them in the field can often turn away from history really easily. Meaning like, I'm doing my thing, I'm doing my thing.
And not think that it's cool, or important to acknowledge as much.
Yeah, yeah. And Jackie wasn't, he wasn't necessarily about that. And I could say all my teachers, Andrew Hill and Muhammed Richard Abrams, they really weren't like that. And then I'm thinking about the people that, that one other person we met with a few times was with Marion McPartland.
Oh yeah, you were on Marion's show once or twice.
Twice.
Twice, yeah.
And then we did duet concerts together.
Oh, amazing. I wanted to talk to you about that.
I mean, like, Mary McPartlin, like, here you are doing your show, right?
Well, this is a total ripoff of her show. I mean, she was the complete inspiration for this.
Yeah, so what a, what a woman, what a pianist, what a thinker, like.
She was cool.
Very cool.
And nothing was off limits when she was at the piano.
I know. It was beautiful. I'm so glad you had that, too.
Yeah, and I remember, I think, one time there was a birthday party for her at Birdland, and you all played.
Oh, yeah, we were all there.
Yeah. What did you play? You played, didn't you? No.
I don't remember.
Okay, so it's gonna come to me.
No, I don't remember what I did on that. I did her show twice, though. Once in the studio and then once in, in front of an audience.
Yeah, the people, so there were like people like that, right? Like Mary McPartlin, who sits out here and talks to musicians she knows, some musicians she doesn't know, and she wants to get to know them better.
It's just so cool what she did.
For a long time, too.
And then like that, and then they pass, right? So then.
I know, and she's gone, but actually, it makes me think of this moment I had with her, which, you know, I came up singing standards and I don't think I thought about the lyrics yet because I was too young to really understand what I was singing about, you know? And she was talking about "For All We Know," that song.
Wow, yes.
When her husband Jimmy died, someone wrote her a card, and on the card just said, "We come and go like a ripple on a stream," which is a lyric from that song.
And it just, like, floored me.
Wow, wow, wow.
And it made me realize, oh, yeah, these aren't just these old standards.
These are just deep, beautiful poetry, and at the time, when she was young, they were new.
And, you know, it just made me think about them differently, and it was, it was a moment.
Yeah, about when, yeah, when, when people, maybe that's what I kind of was saying about Curtis Mayfield, like, when we need a song.
Yeah, we need it.
Like and whose songs get pushed up like whether dare I say it whether it's the algorithm or not, you know.
Yeah, people respond to it.
If they're gonna respond to it.
Which ones get pushed up into our consciousness that then we hear it again and we almost hear it anew.
Which are great songs can stand that listen over and over again, you know.
That's beautiful. The conversation between generations.
Right, is really important to have.
It's kind of rare.
Yeah, like, okay, you're right. Like, I'm like, right, so when we came up to New York and you like, you met an older musician, then he's like, you'd have to really get humble, one, to listen because you know that, well, they know other stuff. And that was my thing with Jackie, was like, he knows stuff that, I don't know, none of the piano players out here on the scene talk about. And also know that he's in his mid seventies now, so this is not gonna be here forever.
Yeah, take advantage.
And, and that intergenerational conversation is, wow, I think for art making is so necessary, you know?
Yeah, it is.
And so Marion was like, come on, little youngster, what you got?
Yeah, I know.
That's what it felt like.
That's how I felt. We were probably not far from the same age. I was probably twenty-two or twenty-three when I went on her show and I was nervous. I also grew up listening to her.
Right? And then, and then when they serve like that role of like somebody you can rely on, reliably gives you information.
And not only just music information, but like, like, like contextual information about another artist that.
Phew, those people, they're, they did a lot of work.
I know.
You know, a lot of really great work. And every once in a while, when her birthday comes up, I'm recharged with how important a person she was and the legacy of spreading kind of art making to a wider public.
Yeah. Yeah, it's special.
Yeah. The demystifier.
Yeah, the great demystifier. Good old Marion Parland, that show.
Another song I really loved is that For James song that he suggested.
That's, that's another, I feel like you have a,
I think, I'm really into the same thing, the, the sort of cyclical songs that don't really have an ending and they just kind of keep going and you just want them to keep going. I think that Curtis song had a little bit of that too.
That's true. Yes, it does. You're right.
The cycle.
You're right.
The chord cycle leads itself back into itself instead of having it ending and then restarting.
Yeah, exactly.
I love songs like that.
Yeah, yeah, there's, I don't know, the songs that are infinite.
I don't know, For James is written for this guy, James Rees Europe, who was this
incredible composer at the turn of the 20th century. And he's a black composer here in New York, really kind of revolutionizing music.
Like, moving out of vaudeville, what black performers are having to do on stage, and starting to say like, hmm, there's something else that we can say on stage. And so he has this, like, what they term as the first big jazz concert at Carnegie Hall in like 1910 or 1911.
There's 165 people on stage with him.
That's insane.
It is. And so when World War I happens, he joins the war because he wants to fight for America. And when they find out that he's joined, they say, oh, wait, but you're famous. So why don't you lead a band?
He says, I need, I think the equivalent was like $300,000. Back then, that's what he was like, because he said, because he was like.
Did he overplay it, just so he would get a little bit?
No, he overplayed it because he said they're gonna say no.
But they said, sure.
They said yes? They didn't even talk him down?
They gave him money and they, and he went, got musicians from Puerto Rico, got musicians from Chicago, he got the best band he could
to put together this band, and then they went to Europe. And they fought on the side of the French. That's how segregated the American forces were. So the black soldiers for America fought on the side of the French. It's kind of wild.
That is such a weird story.
So I made this piece about him. And we've been traveling for like seven years. And but I hadn't written a song for him. I just kind of played the material he played and we manipulated. And we have this film that happens with it. But For James is a is kind of based on a medley he wrote. And sometimes the medleys these artists were putting together were songs that were quite racist. You know, like, I think the medley is called Plantation Medley. So it's like, ah, come on, you know? But sometime somewhere in the transition material between the two songs, he composed this little like three bar thing. And it was like,
like something like that. And then something like that, something like that. And I just thought, when I heard it, I was just like,
You just went.
I was like, I gotta get to a piano.
Yeah, that's great.
I gotta get to a piano and hear what I think happens with that. And then how what he imagines for is what big bands become. What he's imagining when the band he takes to Europe in this this military band becomes big band sound.
And how does he, in all that work he does in the 19 teens, lead up to like an Earth, Wind & Fire?
To a Duke Ellington, like the way the horns work and all this stuff.
And in the in this song, you have the the band in the end comes in. It sounds like more like a second line.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I've been trying to. It's like my sing along moment at the end of the show.
Oh, I love it. I love when you start singing it.
I am not a singer, but it's also vocalized.
It's cool. I mean, it wants lyrics. I almost wrote some, but then I was like, I don't really know enough about James, so I wanted to ask you about him.
I hear that.
But what if I sat next to you?
Come on.
Would that be cool?
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Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Ledge. How does music actually enter your mind? I'm not sure why or how.
The music comes to me. But I think people who love music and write music, our brains are just filled with music. Like, we have listened to so much music. We've been a part of so much music. I think of the story that I want to tell, the mood that I want to create with the music. Start playing chords, see where they lead me.
Sometimes, I'm just not even thinking about music, right? And I hear this little thing, and I go, oh, that could be this.
You know, you just have to be ready for when the inspiration hits.
Yeah. Experience Before the Moment, the Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
All day on that.
Right? It's like you could just go over and over. I didn't expect you to go back down.
Yeah, you're right, yeah. It goes back, yeah. Goes back down. And one day I'll get that kind of like, that songwriting thing together that says, oh no, you know, it keeps like...
It goes up.
Don't you ever.
Yeah, when the sort of second line style New Orleans-y vibe comes in at the end of that, it's really, I just wanna, I just started dancing.
And those are like kids, those are, those are college kids. There's a woman named Stephanie Neal who started an organization called the 369 Experience. So it's built to teach that music to HBCU kids and all those bands. So she sources like 60 kids. And so I went and met with them in DC. And then I taught them this song by ear.
Yeah, the marching band.
They started like coming up with stuff. The drummer's like, oh, oh, try this. And I was like, oh, shit. They got into it like so quick. That's also maybe something else about good, I don't know, I was gonna say good music. So fuck that, I'll take that. That's something else about good music is that it, the ability for it to get into other people and then them feel like they can add something to it versus like, I can't do anything with this except sing it.
But they wanted to like add all this stuff to it. So that experience is captured at the end of that record is like, I was, I was literally just talking to them about this man, this music, this song. And then I say, and the person who taught me about this man is Randy Weston, you know, like, like, like, I'm like, nah, like, let me make sure that I came to Brooklyn to sit at Randy Weston's house and he was the one who for three hours told me about James Reese Europe. I was like, you gotta know about James Reese Europe. You know, like, so these, this is that intergenerational conversation that so thankful that I had when I moved to the city because I did need guidance, you know?
Yeah, but you can get really lost here.
Yeah, which is, you know, why people come.
It's true.
Meaning like, you know, like, I think in therapy, I was, I was loving that when you move to New York, you can, like, you're sure that people say, ain't nobody worried about you, you know, like, you can almost, you can kind of disappear.
Especially the older you get, I've noticed.
Oh, my God.
Lately, I feel invisible.
It's kind of good, it's kind of.
It's kind of nice.
It's kind of, it's kind of strange.
It's definitely humbling. It's like, wow, these young people don't give a crap about me. They have no clue and they don't care.
No, it's, it's, um.
I mean, also like when we think about the industry we walked into together and you know like what it was in the late 90s versus what it is 25 years later is like a
Totally different.
You know, and if we talk about Bruce Lundvall for a moment, just for a second,
To just talk about how beautiful
a leader he was.
He was amazing. Head of Blue Note Records. Signed me to Blue Note, signed you. What year did you sign to Blue Note?
99.
Oh yeah, before me. Okay. And um, yeah, he was just the best. He gave me a notebook once of standards. He said, "Sometimes when I'm on the plane, I just try to think of all the standards I know." And here's it, because I was making some demos for them. This is before they signed me.
Oh wow.
At first, they gave me a little money to make more recordings because they weren't sure about me.
During that era?
Did you know that?
No, I didn't know that they weren't sure. I was in the office when the tape came in.
Oh, really? No way.
That's crazy.
Yeah, but go ahead.
Yeah, and he gave me this little notebook full of just like song titles. And I took it on the airplane with me and I was like, "Aww, my heart, Bruce."
Bruce was um,
I was playing with, in a saxophone, it's Greg Osby's band. And he was, Greg Osby was on Blue Note. And then Greg made a record and I played on it and I was still in college. It was like a big deal. And then
we played at the Sweet Basil. Sweet Basil was in the Village. And Bruce was there and he just came up to me in the middle of the, in the break.
And he said, "You wanna make a record?"
This is the first time you met him?
I don't, it may have been. Around, maybe it wasn't the first time.
Do it Bruce again.
Listen, dress up. Let me tell you something. You know, like it's kind of like fast like that and it's full of energy. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm psyched about it." And I was like, "I surely wasn't ready to make a record."
And I was like, "How do you turn, no, you don't turn that down. You go for it."
I wasn't either. I wasn't ready to make a record either.
And I, you know, kind of were, you know, dare I say, we're kind of spoiled by a person who kind of can see that much. You know what I'm saying?
See our potential.
Yeah. And then every record, he was like, "What do you want to do?"
Like all, every story I'd heard about anybody entering the record industry is you're rarely in charge of what you want to do.
He said, "What do you want to do?" "Oh, I'll do Trio." "Okay." "What do you want to do?" "I'll do Sam Rivers." "Oh, okay." Like, he was like, "Whatever."
No, you're right. He was, we were so lucky. I don't think I even realized it until a few years later. And he was super giving and um.
He even, I even did a couple of records, like when I got more into a different sound, further and further from jazz. He, he even admitted to me, we used to have these martini lunches. Did you have those with him?
Oh, my God, yes.
Yeah. The martini drunk lunch.
See, I didn't drink a martini, but I'd watch him.
Well, I did. And I don't know what made me think I could drink with a man in the seventies who's been drinking martinis for.
Right, he's big, he's like six foot three.
For sixty years, but yeah, big dude. But we would, I mean, we would just drink for hours. And um, he, he finally admitted to me after a couple martinis, "I don't really like this record when you gave it to me."
"I gotta, I gotta tell you, I gotta be honest with you." And I loved that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It made me feel good. He's like, "But now I kind of get it." But he didn't say he loved it, but he, he understood it more, but he's like.
That's so interesting.
Isn't that funny? He had to admit to me that when I first turned in the record, he didn't like it.
But they still let me do it. They didn't say anything.
Well, that, yeah, that's.
It was the fall. And then the Little Broken Hearts record is, the two records that were very far from what I had done before.
I mean, but also like you gotta let an artist travel.
I mean, you know, I just remember, yeah, I felt like there were, during that era, there was, there were, I watched artists, like clearly somebody suggested that they should do a ballads record.
Oh, yeah.
You know, and I was like, "You're the last person I want to hear do a ballads record."
That's so funny.
Like, you know, like, I just remember thinking like, "Why are you all doing that?"
Why are they doing ballads records?
And I had, and all my teachers and mentors, they were like, "Yo, Jason, just, yo, you gotta, mm, you know, you gotta like, don't, you know, have your vision, you know, and so."
They were very challenging like that. And so I was really like, every record I was gonna try to be, show, like, keep turning the toggle.
Shift, yeah.
And um.
That felt good because then I knew that it wasn't like gonna show up in like a straight line that it would seem like. Like when you talked about Sunrise being a record that felt like, oh, I felt like, oh, yes, it's perfect.
Yeah, yeah.
You know what I mean?
Not in a bad way.
Yeah, but like, you know, like, it shows, it shows how much can happen in a band's sound and, um, and the kinds of stories and the kinds of songs and forms. And I crave that. And I also, you know, so now there's another generation of musicians coming up and I'm urging them constantly, you know, like, don't ever lose sight that there, there has always been an era of artists who are, who are really gonna try to keep pushing forward. And maybe not everything is gonna be understood in the moment.
That's right. It takes time sometimes.
Yeah, it does take time.
Yeah. I mean, you always just have to do what feels good to you.
Or uncomfortable, but in a good way.
Yeah, in a good way.
Speaking of uncomfortable, but in a good way, I feel like you really, you really, um, always intimidated me because you're, you're so amazing. And I always felt a little out of place on Blue Note because I wasn't, um, like a jazz, uh, what do you call it? I wasn't.
Nerd? No, you are a jazz nerd.
I was a jazz nerd.
You are a jazz nerd.
But I wasn't, you know, I wasn't writing jazz songs and I, I couldn't play fast and I felt a little bit like a less than. What's the word I'm trying to think of?
I don't know what that word is.
But you know what I'm saying.
I know what you're talking about, but, okay, but I'm gonna let you finish your thought.
Well, yeah, so, so anyway, I, you never did anything to me, but I was intimidated by you, um, because you're, I feel like you're on another plane and it, it's just such a beautiful thing to watch you make music. Um, and I always felt like just a little kid on the side, you know?
Oh, my God. Well, that's how, but, but you gotta be, I wanna be clear that when I was there and that record came, and the demo came in. It was like you felt the office was shifting. It was like, oh shit, right? Because these songs were coming from you and they were special. And then when those songs came out, we all were trying to play the songs.
No, and whether I played, came on stage and played it, but I always played it at home, sitting at the piano.
So the thing was that I always felt like, oh, and then everybody was like, thank God that she's here.
Because what else is making, you know, the record label turn around?
Because it's a jazz label. I mean, of course, but like, still, it was my, you know, I was humbled by you and everyone else on the label. I felt like, just like, some kind of weird imposter or something. And so, so here's what you did for me. When we did the Blue Note anniversary concert, and this is about nine or 10 years ago,
you were MDing it, right? And you said, Nora, please come and sing a song with me, Brian Blade, who I play drums, who plays drums with me sometimes, often now, but at the time I hadn't played with Brian in like 10 years.
Oh, wow.
It was John Patitucci on bass and Wayne Shorter. I was like, what? Really? You, you want, you want me?
Me?
Hell, yeah.
And I was like, okay. Thanks, Jesus.
I remember that.
And I swear, you, you were so kind to me and cool and I was really, really nervous.
Of course, I mean, you know, I mean, Brian always puts it easy, but he's so great.
I knew Brian, but you know, you are so great. Patitucci is so great. And then, but Wayne, I mean.
Yeah. Yeah, that's a, talk about another plane.
So another plane and then we had such a special time. We played like two songs and then you emailed me the next week and you said, hey, I think you should do a record with Wayne.
I said that?
You said that to me.
And you started, so this album I made called Daybreaks and Wayne came in and he played on four songs. We couldn't do the whole record, but like-
It was so great.
Basically, we just recorded for two days with me, Brian and Pat Atucci and Wayne Shorter.
It was so great. I was just listening to that.
You did that.
I was just listening to that.
You did that for me. You gave me the boost and the sort of confidence.
It was you and I thank you for that.
No, it was, it was, it was an honor.
I should have had you play in it, but I selfishly wanted to play piano.
Hell, yeah. Cause who, I mean, look, Wayne Shorter, the way Wayne Shorter hears, you can go like, like that, and then he'll spray the array of all those notes through his saxophone.
He can, that's why Herbie loves, loved playing with him is because that's how responsive he would be. And he might sum all that sound up into one note.
You know, like-
And he's, um, he's such a special person. I don't, I think maybe I got very lucky to sub in that quartet's band when Danilo couldn't do it one time in Australia.
So I was always, all the way to the other side of the earth. And that's when I kind of thought, after playing with them, that was like 2005 or something. And it was not long after that we did that concert. I just thought like, I know Wayne would be into this. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, and I also knew how important you, you are, especially to the era that we were at the label. It was a really important time for, for me and for our colleagues who were all on the label. We had a special little era. It was an era.
It was an era. The people, all the people under Bruce too at that time were so special. All the, all the staff at Blue Note. They were all my friends.
Yeah, yeah. It was really cool. So that moment felt like a very-
Like a big, it was a big moment. It's captured on in video, thank God.
It's so cool. And I've got pictures backstage with McCoy Tyner.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Brian, and it was cool.
You know, Nora, you a badass piano player.
Well, I thank you.
I'm just saying that stuff, I'm saying it again.
I appreciate it.
Because that stuff needs to be said.
Well, I'm not trying to get more out of you about that. But I will say, you really, you lifted me up at a time when I wasn't sure where I fit. Even though I had a lot of success, I never completely knew where I fit. And mostly, I didn't care, which is good.
But you reminded me that I had that part of my history musically, and that I could fit there if I tried.
Nice.
And it was really sweet.
That was, it was a special, special, special day. Also, it was like at that moment that Bruce was like heading out.
Yeah, he wasn't able to be there.
But he watched it.
Don Was was coming in. You know, there was a lot, like right during that time. But also, if I can, just for a second, talk about piano players or, or what do you, singers who play piano or piano players who sing.
I can't do that, right? So I marvel at people who have a really singular piano style, like you, or like a Nina Simone, Shirley Horn, who also really know how to distribute vocally at the same time.
Like, so I don't know, like, was that always easy for you or?
Um, I think, I think in college, I had a gig at a restaurant where I played standards Fridays and Saturday nights. And they let me sing when I wanted. So the gig was for a piano player. But I said, can I, can I bring a little tiny amp in and sing like every few songs?
And so that's how I got the muscle memory down, or the coordination.
To do it. And that's when I realized I had something special by doing it together.
But I also, I think normally when I'm doing like a, a song and recording, it's always better if I can do it together.
Because when I do it separately, I'm good at both enough, but it doesn't have the same interaction or like alchemy.
As when I do it together.
I don't know how you all do it. It's, it's a...
It's just a different muscle.
It is, but...
I often think about, like, when I was listening on the way here to you again, about how people make space in music. And I don't, and I, so there's making space for the other musicians who you're working with. But I'm also meaning like, maybe I mean manicuring space, like a lawn, you know? Like a Japanese garden, you know? That's what I mean, I'm more being like that, like, you give enough distance between the bass and the piano, and the voice, and the drums, or whatever else, for the things to emerge when they need, like, and, you know?
But I think you're thinking of it in a different way. I think for me, I can't do it all at the same time, because my brain won't let me, the, the sort of coordination thing. So, when I'm done with a phrase, I'll respond to it on the piano, because I can't do it while I'm singing. So it's more of a limitation than making space, I think.
Wow, okay.
It really is.
That's so good, though.
I also think, I will tell you this, this is the funniest thing ever. My, my old boyfriend from, from that record, Ali Alexander, he, he said to me once, um, he said, "Wow, I can't believe you found a way to do something with your limitations that's so special." It was like a weird, like, we realized at the time that I'm good at ballads, but I also can't play fast for shit. So my limitations sort of pushed me in one direction, and I would play and respond to what I'm singing, but I didn't have the chops to, to do everything else. Does that make sense?
No, it does.
It wasn't, um, creating space. It was finding places I could fit within my, my world that I had. So, so to me, that's how I...
That's special.
Um, yeah, it's, um...
What do you call it, like a coming to grips?
I don't know that, I mean, I guess when you, when you are something, then that's, this is what I do.
Yeah. And I'm not downplaying it, like, I know that, that I'm, I, that what I have can be special, but it is sort of based on the limitations that I started out with.
Well, they are, um, exorbitant.
But isn't that funny?
They are, I mean, okay, yeah. I mean, like, yeah, I mean, like, often when people talk about Nina Simone, that, of course, we love how she, what she says and how she says it.
And then if I get selfish about it, let's just talk about the piano playing for a minute.
My goodness, like, the virtue, she's virtuoso.
And, like, like, and the, the sheer steadiness of the attack of her hand at the piano, it is so not gun-shy.
Well, and it's also multifaceted. She did all that sort of, she had that classical background and she did all that stuff, but then on some of those soul recordings where she's just playing, and it's kind of like Aretha.
Yes, yes.
I'm like, who, I'm like, who played piano on that Aretha stuff? It's my favorite piano player. Oh, it's Aretha, no duh. Yeah, right?
Aretha.
And then there's Aretha.
And then there's Aretha, or Ray Charles.
Or Ray Charles, yeah, that's true.
And they know where to put it, they just know where to put it, and, um...
That's, yeah, and I think, yeah, maybe that's, maybe what I'm also responding to is often, like, I, during that time when we were on Blue Note, I was working with Cassandra Wilson as well.
One of my favorites.
Right, and I felt like, okay, at the beginning of my career, I was like, ah, I mean, I play with a lot of vocalists, and, but when I worked with Cassandra, I feel like, oh, shit, Jason, you, you're not prepared for this. You can make it through the gig, but you're not prepared.
And so some, I just, I...
Because she's so deep and kind of ethereal.
She was doing all this blues stuff, and, like, I didn't quite know the blues stuff.
And, um, I just didn't, and, um...
So some years went by, she always stayed close to it. And I said, Cassandra, I think I'm ready to play. So then we did another record.
Oh, great.
I think it's Tenderly or something like that. Or Loverly is the name of the record. And then I felt better about it, you know? And then even when I listen back to that, I was like, oh, Jason, but damn. Because there, I think there's a way when pianist is working with a vocalist, there's like a way that we wanna support and engage, but also like make sure we're giving space, you know? And not feel like we're showing you notes to play, you know?
Kinda yell at piano players for doing that shit. Um, so.
Yeah, don't double the melody if I'm gonna sing it. Come on now, I got this.
Say it again.
Exactly. Do not double the melody if I'm going to sing it.
Okay, please send me just you saying that. I'm gonna send that to so many people I know.
We're just gonna slice it out for you.
That's what I think.
Yeah, but you didn't know that at first.
No, I didn't know that.
You already knew that.
I wouldn't do that.
But, but it was just like, uh, what you're saying is like, it's like, nah, you have to, you're, when, when one person is making both of those things, then there's an inherent space you make.
So when I think of like Shirley Horn as the great vocal accompanist, there's Shirley Horn singing too.
So.
Yeah, it's true. So she knows where she's going.
Well, and I, I often double the melody when I'm singing it.
I was listening to you do that earlier today, just now.
But.
But you know where you're phrasing.
But I know where I'm going.
But I think I would probably not be the best accompanist for another singer.
For that reason. Cause I like doubling the melody when I'm singing it.
That's deep.
I like that. But yeah, that, so that's what I, that's why I also like talking about how the piano and the voice, you know, and then centuries of that, you know, like Schumann and Brahms and like,
how far we wanna go back, piano and voices as a, as a relationship. You learn a lot of spacing things in it. Brahms, the way Brahms spaces that as an E minor chord. You know what I mean? Like.
That is a pretty voice, yeah.
Like he's giving like a lot of space, not.
Not a triad, but spread.
It's spread, right?
It's sort of a drop two.
Yeah. So then in that, you, you're, you, and you allow more overtones to ring. It's all this subtlety that they place there.
That I keep trying to get to when I'm, when I'm, when I'm working with people. And Cassandra has been a, a person I go back to every, every seven years.
We might meet up and, "Okay, let me try again."
I'm sure you always have it. You just hard on yourself.
I, I am hard on myself.
But it's okay to keep learning.
Keep, keep rolling, you know, and keep changing.
The thing she did the last time we played is she performs at 4:32.
Oh, really?
I've been thinking more about that lately. So you have to have the piano tuned?
I had Steinway tune the piano.
And you're doing local pianos?
And yeah.
So, so.
I had them, we had one in New York and then I had them tune, detune a D in New York.
And how did it do? How did the piano do?
Amazing. It sounded like another world.
So normal is 4:40?
4:40, yeah.
But it used to be 4:32?
It used to be 4:32.
Okay, so, so can you explain the history of music to me?
No, definitely not.
How did we arrive at that? Because this is like, okay, music is in us, singing is a ancient thing, but piano is not. Instruments are not, I mean, they are and they aren't. Do you know how we arrived at 4:32?
You know what? That's your, that's your, that's your next podcast.
Who am I gonna get in here to tell me about that?
Gonna get Cassandra List to come and talk about it.
Maybe she could tell me. And so, so, so then when you move up to 4:40, when, do you know when that happened?
That's like, I wanna say 30s, 40s.
You know who I bet knows this? This is Matt, my engineer. So not until the 30s or 40s did it move up.
So any recordings, early recordings, well, they were pretty out of tune.
Yeah, see, exactly, right?
That's the thing.
And then, and so like, it was, the first gig we did was myself, Marvin Sewell and Cassandra. And so.
And he's used to tuning the guitar down.
Right, so he tuned it down, right. And just like, I gotta say, the songs just felt.
They just felt more open. And if you do like cymatics, you know, like on 4:40, it's very static. Meaning like, you know, cymatics, like.
I don't know what that is.
Cymatics is like, if you take a pitch and then you play, and you play that pitch, 4:40, like.
Then that, the way that affects water, you know, like it'll show up as a shape.
All the pitches show up as a shape in water. Water is affected by the sound.
So, right, so it's a very static shape. But when you do 432, A at 432, that thing moves around like crazy.
And, um, and so anytime we talk about like, the body is made of water. You know, like it's mostly water when we're playing music.
We're feeling it in a different way.
It's just, it's, it's doing a lot. Sometimes people talk about it in the background, but it's really just all your cellular makeup.
That's like totally being affected by it. So 432 felt like, the songs just felt like they had more room to breathe. It helped me slow down a little bit more.
Wow, you played differently.
It was great.
That is.
It was really great.
That is cool. I want to mess with that.
Why did I start talking about 432?
Because Cassandra.
Oh, because of Cassandra. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so these people like Cassandra, uh, like comping and those kinds of things you, I learned from working with vocalist Michelle and Degue Ochello or
I love her.
Who I'm married to, Alicia, like, the way that the piano works with these voices is, you know, really, um, a thing I keep wanting to experiment with because it, uh, it always helps me grow.
That's cool. I, I think that whenever I try to sing and something is either slowed down or sped up. Now, I haven't actually tried it with 432 specifically, but I work with someone who likes to speed up and slow down stuff a little bit, and it's always kind of between pitches.
That's nice.
It, it can be, but I find that singing it between pitches is really hard for me. Not because I have perfect pitch or something, but I think just the muscle memory of singing in tune usually. It's just.
I mean, I can do it. It's just, it's hard. It's hard for me to get a vocal take.
When it's sort of between the pitches. And I wouldn't think it would be, but I guess it's just memory, a muscle memory thing, you know? So I don't know, it's kind of funny. I want to try it at 4:32 that now and see.
You say you one of your pianos.
Yeah, one of my, one of my multiples. One of my pianos. That's a good idea.
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Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.
That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. To find your creativity and to believe in yourself, because somewhere in the midst of it, I stopped believing that my voice mattered and that I could find it again. That's a challenge. I was not feeling very confident creatively, only, again, defiant in my belief that.
What this is about is express something honest. Say something honest. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app,
YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, do you feel like trying that Duke Ellington song?
Oh, sure.
So pretty. I thought of Marion in the middle of that.
Oh, yeah. Very much Marion kind of vibes.
That was very Marion. Oh, that's so pretty.
Yeah. I mean, Duke Ellington.
Yeah. The artist.
The artist. You know, like, you know, we were talking about singer piano players, like, he didn't... He didn't really sing.
He didn't, but he kind of did, right?
Like, he was vocal.
In a way that was cool.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah. And then...
I mean, thank God he had Billy Strahan.
Oh, my God. I was just thinking about that. Just the gravity of the lyrics.
That he actually found someone who matched the height of his music.
Yes, that's right. And they like would travel the world together, often have been saying, because I've been spending a year, like, playing the music and talking about it.
It's like, also, the other reason they need each other is not... No one person can see everything. So when you come back to the page to write a song together, the other person can write the thing that you didn't see, you know?
Which is a... You have to be open to that, though.
Not everybody's open to that.
I don't know if I'm open to that.
Yeah. I mean, my goodness, like, it's a lot of sharing going on.
In that, with those two. There's a documentary with Ellington where...
They happen to be filming when Strayhorn passes.
So there's footage of Ellington in the funeral.
Of Strayhorn, sitting in a pew, like,
you know, I don't know if this is just editing, but watching Ellington sitting at the funeral of his partner, basically.
Like, what am I gonna do now that my partner is not here, who I write all these songs with?
That's heavy. I should watch that.
It's beautiful. I mean, that's the other thing about Ellington is that he's well documented. Meaning like he rides at a time.
Yeah, yeah. No, you're right.
Technology is there for him to make these long records. Film is there, cameras are there.
And then he lived a long life.
And he had a long life, right? So then we had all these images and credible interviews and and he didn't mind the camera.
Yeah, he embraced it.
Yeah. So I love that when you were singing that song on that record, I was like, oh, yeah, that's right, Florret African.
It's such a good one. And I've, that album, Money Jungle, with Max Roach and Charles Mingus.
Maybe you know the truth. Is Florret African? I heard that that was sort of just improvised on the spot, which kind of makes sense if I'm listening to it. But do you know if there's any truth in that?
I mean, I don't know. I'm sure, I don't know. Actually, I don't know.
Like, the whole song was improvised? Yeah.
I mean.
But I don't know.
There's only one other piano player who I think gets to that, is that's Herbie Hancock.
Meaning like the inventive nature of their piano playing. Like what Ellington is playing there, he has a thought of an idea.
But how he decorates that melody?
It's so pretty.
Yeah, it just, it's odd at times.
But it's so simple.
It's comforting, it's simple, yeah.
And then it gets a little bluesy.
But it doesn't at all, yeah, it's like a stew.
Yeah. I mean, it's like, kind of like.
I recently made my first successful gumbo, which is a big deal.
First?
Yeah, I've been butchering.
Have you been practicing a while?
I have been, and they were terrible, but I finally made a good one.
But, but when you're cooking and they ask you to kind of like get the bottom of the pot?
Yeah, the scrape up the bits, yeah.
Like, I feel like Ellington is always kind of like making sure that there's some, something that has kind of like crusted over, you know? Something that's a little burnt in there, he just.
And then he picks it up.
Yeah, he uses tension in a way and, and doesn't mind creating with it to, to make more, you know? And using his band to do that, too. He's special at that.
That's so great. And so you're doing that show still?
Yeah, my last one is, is, is next week at the Apollo.
Oh, that's right.
So it's kind of like, it's been a year and.
And it was for his 125th birthday?
And how old was he when he died?
Oh, my gosh, let's see, if he's, he was born in 1899, I think he died in the late 70s. So he wasn't 80, you know, but he was getting.
But he was, he was old. He probably lived a hard life.
I mean, look, he sure smiles a lot through it.
He sure did, man. That smile.
Something that, like, right, when we think about people like that, like,
who put on that show enough, you know? But I think the other thing was, I think about him using a big band, a thing that goes out of style, and he's like somehow doesn't tire, like, keeping that.
I'm not even a huge big band person.
Me either.
I'm really not, and, but I can't get enough of Ellington, big band.
It's always weird enough.
And just like, it's just.
Yeah, and he doesn't, that band doesn't over, I mean, of course, I could think about great soloists in that band, but I feel like sometimes the soloists aren't solos, really.
Like, they really do feel composed.
Yeah, like a part.
Or like a, a character.
And these musicians are people that he, he felt closely about and wrote specifically for. It's special.
It's special.
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She'd throw things, wander, and started hoarding. Mom's Alzheimer's was already so hard. But then we found out she had agitation that may happen with dementia due to Alzheimer's disease. And that was a different kind of difficult. So we asked her doctor for more help.
Seeing symptoms like these in a loved one? It could be time to ask their doctor about Rexulti, Rexiprazole 2mg, the first FDA-approved treatment for this condition. Rexulti is proven to reduce agitation symptoms. Rexulti should not be used as an as-needed treatment. Elderly people with dementia-related psychosis have increased risk of death or stroke. Report fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, which can be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High blood sugar can lead to coma or death. Weight gain, increased cholesterol, unusual urges, dizziness on standing, falls, seizures, trouble swallowing, or sleepiness may occur. Learn more about these and other side effects at rexulti.com. Tap ad for P.I.
Man, I'm a Black and Mexican kid from San Pedro. And I grew up in Inglewood as well. I never liked to be boxed in. Both of my parents colored outside of the line. I mean, even them being together at the time in L.A. was just not typical. And so I think that has always been a part of my DNA. There's a defiant something in me that feels like what we get to do with what we're given that's greater than us is to maybe connect people to ideas that they wouldn't naturally, you know, connect to. That's really me. I'm just kind of like defiant with love, though.
Experience before the moment. A Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I wanted to talk about your Mass Mocha show a little. That's really cool. So I didn't know you were an artist. I mean, it doesn't surprise me at all. Visual artist, that is.
Yeah, you know, I think for the past, like, maybe like, I don't know, since 2005, I've been collaborating with visual artists.
OK.
As kind of as, as much as I would collaborate with great musicians, I felt like visual artists were asking me questions that musicians weren't.
Isn't that funny?
I was like, thank God.
You're gonna help change me.
And two artists in particular, Joan Jonas and Adrian Piper, these women kind of like arrive, I say simply that they arrive at the moment my mother passes. So these are two incredible women, conceptual artists, performance artists, and they, they don't play around either. And there's a record I did on Blue Note called Artists in Residence, and it has their work on it. And then over the years, kind of it then introduced me to a lot of other artists who I was kind of fans of, who needed something for a video, they needed something for a performance, they needed something.
This is why you live in New York City, by the way.
That's true. That's very true.
Going back to that, that is the benefit.
That's true. That's true. The community is quite, can be quite small to a degree. And then, and so, so it just kind of kept. And then I felt like these artists knew as much about music as I did, and I thought I was a specialist. And so the questions, like a painter would be asking me about Thelonious Monk, they wanted to know something else that would help their painting.
It wasn't like they were trying to get a B-flat chord down. They were like, nah, I wanna. There's something about repeating a song. Why do you repeat a song? Why do you repeat a melody?
Why do you keep going?
Yes, right, like all these kinds of things that's like.
I would have never thought to ask that.
No, exactly.
Because it feels good.
Yeah. And they're like, now there's something in that. And so then they make a work about it. So, over the years, kind of working with these artists, then kind of developed a, I would say, a practice from watching a lot of them to help say, well, what, in relationship to music, like Miles Davis was a painter, you know, Duke Ellington got accepted to Pratt but didn't go.
I didn't know that.
He was an art student, like, there's always been a relationship.
That makes sense, yeah.
And so I started trying to figure out, what are the traces that we leave as pianists at the piano? But then I also started really thinking about the places that musicians perform at. Like, when I got to New York, I used to love going, I still love going to clubs and hearing bands play in basements. But then after those clubs shut down, then we sometimes think about the bands who played there and the bootleg recording.
Mm-hmm.
But I want to think about the place.
What happened to the place? What is it about the architecture of the place that also informs the music?
It was also a part of that thing that was happening.
And it was a necessary place for an audience to come in, to find something too. So there's something about gatherings that would happen in these clubs. And so I started remaking the stages from clubs that are no longer here.
That's so cool.
It's kind of wild, kind of bizarre.
Yeah, I was watching the little video of it and,
so no, does anybody play?
Every once in a while.
I was gonna say, you must do music in the space, too.
Every once in a while, somebody I know is going through there. I say, oh, you can go, go on up into it and play.
Go play.
And in some of the clubs that I've redone, like a slug saloon, I would have Archie Shep come play in, Charles Lloyd come play in. And those are musicians who played the original, like, the real club.
Yeah, wasn't it a weird, like, out-of-body experience for them?
I think they thought, like, man, this kid's here. It's some wild shit.
That's so fun.
We'll do it with you, you know? But I think of it more of a continued expression, because I still feel like it all evolves from the piano for me.
And, but I felt that in, over time,
I don't wanna be everywhere.
Meaning like travel on the road and always play all the shows, so.
How do you channel it?
How can I exist somewhere and not be?
Podcast, baby.
That's what you gotta do, man. It's your next endeavor.
Visiting yours.
But that's really cool. I wanna see it, cuz it looked beautiful and it's up till January.
Yeah, it's been up, yeah, it's been up for like a couple of years.
Oh, it has? Okay.
It's kinda, I mean also, it's the largest contemporary art museum in America.
Incredible space up there.
I've actually never been.
Oh, it's a, cuz it's also a long ass drive.
Yeah, but I've heard it's amazing. It's like on my list every summer to take the kids and then I forget.
It is really beautiful. But there's just something about,
you know, kinda making sound and music not in concert spaces.
You know, I'm sure you've been asked to play all kinds of places.
I don't know.
Yeah, you're not gonna think about it now, but then you're gonna, oh yeah, remember that time we were out there?
Well, I love the idea of like a house concert or, you know, an interesting space. It is a whole other thing.
And so sometimes like thinking about the way music fits into these spaces. And for me, watching also, a lot of worlds siphon ideas from the jazz world. So they extract the, the resources from a jazz world, which is a lot of struggle, you know?
And they move them over into fashion or into film or, you know, they siphon it out and reap all this. I don't know, let's just say, economy, right, for lack of a better term. Yet, but the musicians who are making this, like what? Like how do we, how do we kinda like start honoring what they did? There's a, the Mellon Foundation recently gave this very large grant.
To musicians who are older in their lives, who have done a lot of this great work and who have not received
Oh, that's great.
these big awards. And there's just something that has to come back to these people and to the community. And how do you kind of bring awareness to it? So this thing about jazz clubs, for me, revolutions started in these clubs.
I mean,
Small spaces.
Small spaces, you know what I mean? People coming into a room, whispering shit to one another in between songs. You know, so there's a lot of brilliant minds that depend on that kind of music. And, you know, we're not, the, the, the industry, the, the music itself is not looking for the, the, the limelight because it already had that a long time ago. But I do think that, my gosh, as the country continues to age, this country specifically, then where do we, where do we keep some space to make that kind of music? To honor the musicians that did it, to honor the places that gather people together to do it?
And to know that it doesn't take like, it takes all kinds of megaphones to start revolutions?
It can be small.
Yeah, that people are focused online.
But it can still be in a small place.
Indeed.
Together in real I R L. Sorry.
I R L, thank you.
Well, that's beautiful.
What did I learn today? I K T R.
I K T R.
I know that's right.
I know that's right, from your kids.
No, I was like, oh, what does that mean? Oh, yeah, right, yeah, sure.
I P B, I play ballads. That sounded like a disease or something. I have I P B.
That's good.
Well, do you want to take us out on a song? Can you, would you play a song for me? And I won't play or sing at all on this one. I would love to hear, really, you can play anything you want. But I was thinking reanimation, but, or anything.
No, I'll play reanimation just because it's a It'll make me sweat a little bit.
It's great.
I'm gonna play a short version.
Yeah, do whatever you want. Thank you so much.
But this is a, yeah, no, it's a pleasure to be here and talk stuff.
Oh, it's so great. Can we just hang out again sooner than 10 years? And I wanna hang out with Alicia, too.
Oh, my God. Yeah. All right, here, here is reanimation. This is written for one of the artists, Joan Jonas.
This is a song for her.
That was awesome.
Thank you.
I like how it melted. I just, my shoulders just went down. I just started melting with it.
Mine too.
Well, thank you, my friend from Texas.
My friend from Texas.
Good to see you and thank you for making this space.
Let's do it again sometime. Let's hang out. Thanks for being so awesome and coming to do this with me.
Yay. Thanks.
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Seeing symptoms like these in a loved one? It could be time to ask their doctor about Rexulti, Rexiprazole 2mg. The first FDA-approved treatment for this condition. Rexulti is proven to reduce agitation symptoms. Rexulti should not be used as an as-needed treatment. Elderly people with dementia-related psychosis have increased risk of death or stroke. Report fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, which can be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High blood sugar can lead to coma or death. Weight gain, increased cholesterol, unusual urges, dizziness on standing, falls, seizures, trouble swallowing, or sleepiness may occur. Learn more about these and other side effects at rexulti.com. Tap ad for P.I.
Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of "Before the Moment," a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.
That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. To find your creativity and to believe in yourself, because somewhere in the midst of it, I stopped believing that my voice mattered and that I could find it again. That's a challenge. I was not feeling very confident creatively, only, again, defiant in my belief that what this is about is express something honest, say something honest.
Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
That was lovely. I love him.
Oh, he's so great. He's so, I mean, obviously such a natural.
If you want to know what songs we did in this episode, the first one was "The Makings of You." That was a Curtis Mayfield song from his album Curtis, released in 1970. The second song we did was "Ain't Misbehavin', of course, music by Fats Waller and Henry Brooks, lyrics by Andy Rezoff. Originally, it was from the musical Connie's Hot Chocolates from 1929, but famously, it was recorded by Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, and many more. The third song we did was "For James" by Jason Moran from the album titled "Ten," released in 2010. The fourth song we did was "Florret African" from Duke Ellington's "Money Jungle," released
in 1963. I also did a version of that song on my album "Daybreaks," 2016. The fifth song we did was "Reanimation" by Jason Moran, and the album it was on was "Reanimation" from 2012. Special thanks to Jason Moran for joining us today, and we'll be back next week with St. Vincent. Norah Jones is playing along as a production of iHeart Podcasts. Visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Norah Jones, and this episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry. Audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Fry, photography by Shirvin Lenez, produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda, executive producers Erin
Monkaufman and Jordan Runtog, marketing lead Allison Cantor-Graeber.
Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Jason. Bye.
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If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. I love a brighter smile. What I don't love is that little wince when I take a sip of something cold or even breathe in cold air. You know that feeling? It takes
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