Madison Cunningham

GRAMMY-winning singer, songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist Madison Cunningham joins Norah for a thoughtful hang and a set of striking duets on Madison’s songs.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 1:04Speaker 00

  This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Madison Cunningham.

• 1:16Speaker 03

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:22Speaker 03

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Hey, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. I'm here with Sarah Oda.

• 1:34Speaker 04

  Hello, hello. Welcome to our show. We have an awesome episode today. We have the Grammy-winning singer, songwriter, guitarist, and pianist Madison Cunningham. She has collaborated with tons of people, including Lucy Dacus, Remy Wolf, Mumford and Sons, Lucius, and Andrew Bird, a lot of our podcast homies. She's an incredible songwriter. Her lyrics are very emotionally sharp, and she's a real storyteller.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  I love her music. It is... Something about it is just arresting, and it's very...

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Very beautiful and heartfelt, but also she's an incredible musician and it's complicated. So it's all the things wrapped up in a perfect vessel. Her voice is incredible, too. So beautiful.

• 2:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're gonna hear her beautiful voice. You're gonna hear kind of how she became such a poignant lyricist, and also some of the musicians and artists that inspired her along the way. And yes, amazing music as always from across Madison's catalog, including her latest album Ace that came out last year in 2025.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Very beautiful album.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Come join us with Madison Cunningham. There is some spicy language in this episode, so listener discretion is advised. It's not that bad, but just so you know, it's there.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Say that you could do me harm In the safety of your arms While your eyes are out of bones dropping

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  My head is full of thunderclouds Keeping aircraft on the ground Who will win this lightning round of suffering?

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  Turning in and turning out The lining of our deepest doubts In the California drought, we're drowning

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  I have followed

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  In your way

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  In your image I pray.

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  Bearing no resemblance to an age of innocence, have I lost the audience for good now?

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  As the grand illusion fades, it hits me as I drive away. I'll never see your echo gray. I have followed.

• 5:54Speaker 03

  In your way. In your image I pray.

• 7:29Speaker 05

  Ooh, I have chills. That was amazing.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Yay!

• 7:32Speaker 05

  That was amazing.

• 7:33Speaker 00

  That was the hardest one!

• 7:35Speaker 05

  I know. We got it. You're so good. That voice is just...

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Oh, your voice has been making me cry all week.

• 7:42Speaker 05

  Oh, man.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  It's so beautiful.

• 7:44Speaker 05

  It just felt like music. That's how it should feel.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  That is what it is.

• 7:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  Wait a second.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  It's music. Oh, my God!

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Oh, that was so beautiful.

• 7:54Speaker 05

  Your feel is so beautiful.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Oh, your feel.

• 7:56Speaker 05

  That was amazing.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  It's gonna be a compliment salad here.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a compliment salad. Coming right up.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  I love your guitar playing.

• 8:04Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  It's so amazing.

• 8:05Speaker 05

  Thank you so much.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  How do you do it?

• 8:09Speaker 05

  Um, how do I do it? I don't know.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  When did you start?

• 8:14Speaker 05

  I started, uh, playing guitar when I was about four or five.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. Okay. That makes sense now.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, my dad was a... He played guitar. He played acoustic guitar. And, um, like, as a kid, I...

• 8:29Speaker 05

  I was told by my parents that I wanted to play kind of immediately. And I think I just really wanted to be close to my dad and wanted to share some sort of, like, a language with him and... Subconsciously, you know, and...

• 8:42Speaker 00

  That's really sweet.

• 8:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was almost like picking up a baseball bat or something and being like, "Let's go play catch," you know? That was the feeling of, uh, learning to play, which was, uh... Yeah, I mean, my love for it has grown and changed and morphed over the years, but I think, uh, watching his... Passion for it also was just naturally going to be infectious.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah. Was he professional or hobby?

• 9:08Speaker 05

  He was, I mean, within church circles.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Oh, cool.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, and he's still, he's still doing it, still performing and writing his own music. And he's, yeah, he was, he's been a big support.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 9:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  That sounds really sweet.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 05

  It's very sweet.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Did you take lessons when you were little?

• 9:29Speaker 05

  I started taking piano lessons first.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  And my piano teacher was very quickly caught on to the fact that I couldn't like, I couldn't read music. And I, she was trying to teach me and I couldn't like, it never stuck, so.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  Is it because your mind was too fast with the music part? And you already kind of knew what you wanted to hear by ear?

• 9:53Speaker 05

  I think it must have been that, it was like, just, I could like, I could replicate what I heard pretty quickly by just, yeah, by just memory. And I think she was like, let's just focus on ear training. And I do regret not having learned, or I wish that that would have kind of settled into.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  Do you really?

• 10:15Speaker 05

  I had a little bit.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Really? Really?

• 10:18Speaker 05

  It hasn't really come up, I guess, but like.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Exactly, and it's not gonna.

• 10:25Speaker 05

  It was like math, it's like, I don't, I really, really needed that. But yeah, anyway, that was kind of the, that was where the love for it started.

• 10:36Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 10:37Speaker 05

  When did you start playing piano?

• 10:38Speaker 00

  I was seven, I started taking lessons.

• 10:41Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  I didn't want to practice though, so I wanted to quit.

• 10:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, did you hate, you must have hated it.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  My teacher was really nice, I wanted to take lessons, I wanted to play piano. My teacher was great, I mean, it was just the classical programs and it didn't really vibe with my brain, I guess. And then I quit after five years, because my mom said I could after five years.

• 11:04Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  Only after five years, so I quit. And then about a year later, I got into jazz. And that, that worked with my brain.

• 11:12Speaker 05

  Could you, were you reading? Were you, how were you ingesting it?

• 11:16Speaker 00

  I was just listening to it. And then I had this great teacher. I started playing saxophone. And then my saxophone teacher turned me on to this great teacher in Dallas named Julie Bonk, who taught me how to read chord changes. And she encouraged me to write, even though I was a little shy with that. But she like taught me how to outline chords instead of reading like staff paper, you know?

• 11:37Speaker 05

  Right.

• 11:37Speaker 00

  Just chords.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  She was like teaching you the sketches of learning how to write songs.

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  She really was.

• 11:44Speaker 05

  That's so cool.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  And yeah, she was cool. I mean, she still is, she's still around. But yeah, sometimes you just need another way in, you know?

• 11:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, right. Like the, the, I was actually homeschooled and I feel like I

• 12:01Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 12:01Speaker 05

  I used this parallel like the whole way through. Never, never went, never stepped foot in the classroom, but

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  I have so many questions.

• 12:08Speaker 05

  Man, I'm, I'm open. You can ask me anything. It was, you know, it's all I know. And so I don't have a lot to compare it to. But like, I feel like every kid is like, needs to learn differently. And the, the beauty of being homeschooled was, I think, my mom was my teacher. She was able to kind of curate the curriculum for what worked with my brain. And I think that's how music's always been too. Like I, I grew up kind of thinking like I was like slow or something. Not because my family made me feel that way, but because I was like, oh, the way that people learn, I'm not learning that way.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  It's different.

• 12:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's different. And

• 12:50Speaker 00

  You realized that later?

• 12:51Speaker 05

  Realized it later, yeah. In the moment, I don't think I had language for it. I just was like, I just, I just know that I enjoy this. And I want to throw out all of the rulebooks that, that come with it.

• 13:03Speaker 05

  And yeah, I think I love that music is that. It's like any one of us can find our own entry point into it. And it's almost, it's the most necessary also if you're writing songs.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  To find your.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Throw the rulebook out.

• 13:18Speaker 05

  Throw the, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's almost not worth learning the rules.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not, well, it's not because you don't want to follow a formula.

• 13:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Because what's so magical about your music is that it's, I felt kind of transformed when I was listening to all these songs. I mean, it's just your way of writing, it does, I was gonna ask you how you, how you got so good with lyrics, you know, like, are you into poetry? Or maybe it's just the way things form in your brain with your background and like, it's just so beautiful, these words, everything. Yeah, your writing is amazing.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  That's so funny. Lyrics are the thing I'm the most insecure about.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Really? Do you work a lot at them?

• 14:08Speaker 05

  I work very hard at them. This last record was such a weird, it was kind of the exception to the rule. Like usually I take a year to write a record and this one was written basically in, within the lifespan of like two months. And it was just, I think it was the first time I'd ever really experienced heartbreak. And so everything was really clarified.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  It's hard and fast, right? Whenever you're feeling it.

• 14:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. And, and what was so scary was leading up to that, I was feeling all of it and had no way to articulate myself and it felt like a trap. And I like lost the power of language and I felt really distant from music and just distant from myself, the whole thing, you know? But these lyrics were like, I definitely edited them and really, really cared about it, but I just, I felt like it was, the more that I messed with it, the more it put up a fight with being messed with. And usually I've found that it's like. For the better, when I've really sat and toiled with lyrics and editing.

• 15:22Speaker 05

  And it also must come from like, because I was homeschooled, I have a stigma about just naturally not being good with words.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  Really?

• 15:30Speaker 05

  It's very silly, but it's something.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  Because you're so good with words.

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Maybe it's just a way, maybe it's been my way out or my way of like, finding my my footing or value in myself. And I'm always like, again, very unsure that that I'm being understood or that.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Really?

• 15:50Speaker 05

  They're good. Yeah, it's an interesting thing.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  I think we all kind of feel like that.

• 15:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  But that's interesting because your lyrics are pretty jaw dropping to me. I just find them really, they're so poetic that you think, or I think, coming from this as a listener, I think, wow, she must really like, work at these. But at the same time, they're so heartfelt and it doesn't feel like they're overworked. Does that make sense?

• 16:19Speaker 05

  That makes that.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Which is a really nice place to be.

• 16:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  Because when things just come out, I feel like it's the most emotional. You really just want to capture the emotion, right?

• 16:29Speaker 05

  Right. There's like, there's such a fine line between it like, coming out as your first attempt at a thought, at forming a thought. And then, and then you, and then the like, you know, you don't want it to ever feel like you're being a scholar at someone.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Exactly. You don't want to feel like you've made it perfect, but there's no emotion in it. Like, there's no heart.

• 16:51Speaker 05

  Someone, I bet you get this, ask this question a lot, but someone recently was like, how do you know when a song is finished? And I've always just had the worst answers for that. And just recently, I feel like the answer that I actually get behind and is the most true for me is like, I don't know when a song is finished. I just know if it's alive.

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  I love that.

• 17:12Speaker 05

  Or if it is like, has something that will continue to percolate and need to be said as the years go on.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  That's beautiful.

• 17:20Speaker 05

  And that's the thing. That's it. Like, as long as the conversation feels like it's fluid and alive, even if it's like, a little bit clumsy, and even if it's a little bit like, elementary. It's, it's worth saying.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  It's a sketch that you can tell what it is and...

• 17:37Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  You can show it to people.

• 17:38Speaker 05

  It's, it's language. It's like the thing that communicates what is happening in your heart space.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:43Speaker 05

  To like, you know, strangers and to people that you love. And like, it's the most, that's all we got.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 05

  That's it.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  That's beautiful. You're coming at it from the right place.

• 17:52Speaker 05

  We're trying. The motives get skewed, but we try.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  I know. It's beautiful.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  Man, you're so good with lyrics, too.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  Oh, I appreciate that.

• 18:00Speaker 05

  It's your thing.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  I came to it much later. And I've always felt kinda not good at it as well. But the last five or 10 years, I feel like I've kinda hit a stride where I, um, I'm proud of the songs from the last like, 10 years, from a songwriting perspective. And I'm happy about that. But I also feel like I'm a little bit opposite where I, I'm really excited when I feel like a song is done and I just like, I don't wanna mess with it anymore.

• 18:28Speaker 05

  Totally. Yeah, there's no, yeah, you know when it's like... But also, do you ever rewrite songs from stage? And by that, I mean like, after they're recorded and you get to tour them, do you ever go, "Oh, that was the lyric I really wished I would've done. Why don't I just correct it now?"

• 18:46Speaker 00

  There's a few lyrics that I have done that to, yeah. I think it's maybe one or two where I just, the old lyrics make me cringe.

• 18:54Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  And then there's one or two where the situation was very specific and I just wanna rewrite that story a little bit.

• 19:00Speaker 05

  Yes, right.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  You know?

• 19:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, is it usually in the songs? Or the ones that make you cringe? Is it usually the songs that people really wanna hear?

• 19:09Speaker 00

  No, luckily. But it is, um, it's just older songs that, that I think were written before I really found my stride as a songwriter. Before I learned that putting my heart out is okay.

• 19:21Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  And I would try to take all the yous and me's out and like, clean it up from the casual thing. But really, the you and me is what it's about. So when I would clean it up, it would just kind of fall flat.

• 19:35Speaker 05

  What did you think wasn't OK or acceptable and to put in a song? Like, what felt too bare to you? Was it was it just that, using me's? Or was it?

• 19:46Speaker 00

  I think it was more like just cliches.

• 19:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  And now I realize that cliches, if you mean them, are they go right to people's hearts. And it's like, that's what it's about.

• 19:57Speaker 05

  It's the same reason that like, I will want a steak for the rest of my life.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  A steak?

• 20:03Speaker 05

  A steak, it's a classic.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  It's a classic, exactly.

• 20:06Speaker 05

  It's a cliche, but it's like, it is for a reason. It is. And like, cliches are so important. And I think the best songwriters are the ones who recognize that and go, how do I just reframe it? How do I re-dish it, replate it?

• 20:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, I'm never looking for a cliche. But if something comes out and it happens to be pretty simple and like, universal and maybe used before, maybe in a different way. But I'm like, I'm fine with it.

• 20:32Speaker 05

  Are you a Friends fan? You know, the classic sitcom?

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Heck, yeah.

• 20:37Speaker 05

  Do you remember the episode where, um, oh, my God, I'm forgetting his name. He's like, he's like the dumb one.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  Joey.

• 20:42Speaker 05

  Joey. He writes this letter of recommendation or something. And he's or like a birthday card or something. He's like tasked with writing this letter and he goes to the thesaurus

• 20:53Speaker 05

  and punches in every single word. And it's just like this unreadable letter with these insane words. I feel like, um, the more profound that we try to be, we sound like that.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally.

• 21:07Speaker 05

  The less that we try. It's all about just making the veil as thin as possible.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:13Speaker 05

  And that's, that's the key to, I think, relatability, obviously. But also like true poetry.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  Connection.

• 21:22Speaker 05

  And connection, yeah. Yeah, it's just funny that we always think that we have to find the craziest ingredients, you know, to make it worth somebody's time. And that's usually the thing that people. They don't really have time to listen to. It's too rich. I think they can see through it. I think I give them, you gotta give them a lot more credit. We have to, yeah. I know. Why do we, why do we make our audiences so dumb in our minds? I don't think we do. I think we're, I think we, I think we're doing it the right way. I think we're just trying to be, you just try to be vulnerable and hope that people can latch on to something. Maybe it's like the people around, or the people who like talk about music so much.

• 22:02Speaker 05

  Like people in the industry that go like, let's dumb it down. Let's, let's prepare a meal, a happy meal for the people. I want a steak. And I want a fucking steak and I want you to make it really well. Sometimes I do want a happy meal. Yeah, no, no shade. I want a burger. Are you kidding? Oh, yeah. With the toy? Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Not above anything. Oh, this is already so fun. This is the best day I've had in a long time. Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 06

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• 22:56Speaker 00

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• 23:51Speaker 00

  Where do you live?

• 23:53Speaker 05

  I live in Frog Town.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  What is that?

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Is that here?

• 23:59Speaker 05

  That's so fair. Yeah, it's here.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 24:01Speaker 05

  Backed up to the Los Angeles River.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Oh, cool.

• 24:04Speaker 05

  And it's on the bike path. Actually, most people in LA, when I say that name, they're like, I don't know what you're talking about.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Is it an old... Did you grow up here?

• 24:13Speaker 05

  No, I grew up in Orange County, which is, you know, 45 minutes south from here. But we... It's such... Two such different worlds and cultures that like...

• 24:22Speaker 00

  It's not that close.

• 24:23Speaker 05

  I have to clarify. Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  Gotcha.

• 24:24Speaker 05

  I would love to claim Los Angeles, but it's, yeah, it's Orange County. And so Frog Town is like this little island of Silver Lake, I would describe it. And it used to be, back in the 40s, 50s, infested with frogs. So it got dubbed that name, and the frogs are no longer there, which is kind of sad.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Aww.

• 24:44Speaker 05

  I know.

• 24:45Speaker 00

  They got magnolied.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, they migrated. They croaked, so to speak.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Oh, boy.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Well, do you want to do another song from your new record, which is so beautiful?

• 24:59Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  I really love it.

• 25:00Speaker 05

  Thank you so much.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Congratulations. It just came out a few days ago, right?

• 25:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, it did. It did, yeah.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really beautiful. And you play a lot of piano on it.

• 25:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  And I love your piano playing.

• 25:12Speaker 05

  Thank you. That means a lot coming from me. I kind of just... It was just out of interest and love. It wasn't meant to be like a statement, really. It just felt like it was the right sound and shape for the music and...

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Is it how you wrote the songs?

• 25:30Speaker 05

  Some of them, I mean, some of them, my full name, the one we're about to play, was written on guitar first.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. That's interesting. You changed.

• 25:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, what I was doing when writing those songs, there was a lot of just like me testing the strength of the song. And I'd be like, kind of switching instruments is really helpful to be like, oh yeah, this still stands without like the branding of an instrument or that. Because that has been the trap, I think, I've... I've found myself in, which is being like, oh, I'm a guitar player. So then I write riffs. And I very quickly, like, this record was never gonna be a riffs record. There was no, there was no room for it. But I was also growing out of the, I was changing anyway.

• 26:21Speaker 05

  So but piano felt like this interesting, like, way forward. And it's still, it's just, it's fun to me. I, that's like, one of the first instruments I started on. And, and it's just, you know what it's like. It's just a beautiful, fluid instrument that like, has, everything's laid out for you. Which is so nice.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  But I think it's fun to switch.

• 26:41Speaker 05

  And it's important.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  It's really fun. I love playing guitar. I'm not great, but it's, it's like.

• 26:47Speaker 05

  I didn't know you played.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I write more on guitar. I feel like it opened up writing for me in my early twenties. I had a hard time writing songs on piano. Because I was used to jazz chords. And then when I stripped back the sevens and stuff, it just sounded like a square piano chord. And I didn't know how to make it sing yet.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  Right.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  So I, when I started playing guitar, I would write, it opened up songwriting for me.

• 27:15Speaker 05

  Who are the people that made songwriting make sense to you? Like, who are the North Stars? That made you go, could I try and write a song like that?

• 27:25Speaker 00

  I mean, all the, probably all the ones.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  All the ones.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  You know?

• 27:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Probably Willie Nelson, cuz his songs are deceptively, they sound simple, but then they always have like, a little twist, you know?

• 27:39Speaker 05

  It's absolute perfection.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  It's pretty great.

• 27:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, it doesn't get better.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  Dolly Doesn't Hurt.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  Dolly Doesn't Hurt, I was just thinking about her today.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:48Speaker 05

  As I always am.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too.

• 27:50Speaker 05

  That song, Here You Come Again.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 27:53Speaker 05

  It's a fucking masterpiece.

• 27:54Speaker 00

  It's so good.

• 27:56Speaker 05

  All the twists in that, I mean, there's some really bold key changes, but you don't feel it? That's.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  That's the thing. That's the mastery part.

• 28:04Speaker 05

  Yes, it's the sleight of hand.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  What about you? What'd you grow up loving?

• 28:09Speaker 05

  I grew up with nothing. I mean, I, I was like, me and my parents laugh about this now, cuz they're, they're such different.

• 28:17Speaker 05

  Like music consumers now, but at the time, they were, they were really young and they were just really worried about what we were listening to and there was just a lot of rules around what we were listening to.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Was it a lot of religious music?

• 28:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was. I mean, and there was, there was some, there was some bands I, I still really get behind. A band called Isley, uh, it's these sisters and I met them recently and I just, I, I think they still had such wonderful music idea, musical ideas, even though they're not a band anymore and a band called Mute Math I loved and like, that was kind of still within, I don't know if they would align as like Christian bands, but the adjacent to, to that world and so I had.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  Acceptable.

• 29:00Speaker 05

  Acceptable, yeah. And those are, those are the things that I was like into as a teenager, but I didn't hear the Beatles till the day I, like the actual day I graduated high school.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  Really?

• 29:10Speaker 05

  Didn't, yeah. Didn't grow up with it, didn't grow, I, I mean, really with a lot of the people who are like, who changed music for me and changed the way that I related to it and it's all about permission too, you know? It's all about like finding the artists that um, allow you to be yourself and to like, give way to your strangest impulses, like and I think, or bravest or, or whatever it is, like, Joni, I, I had a real, obviously, I mean, everybody has, but had an awakening with her when I was uh, 18 years old was like, I ended up in Portland, it's a really long story, but I just, someone lent me their car and I was just driving

• 29:53Speaker 05

  across all this, the bridges and listened to Court and Spark and I just was like, this is what it means to be a woman. She's singing about who I want to become.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  That's a good moment when you can just, you can remember that moment.

• 30:12Speaker 05

  I can still smell it. Like, I remember what the car looked like, it felt like, and just how it came through the speakers. And I ended up at this, like, mansion with all of these roses. And I just, we just think, it was insane. It was like a psychedelic experience, truly.

• 30:29Speaker 00

  That is another story.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's another lifetime. We were about to jump into a song. But anyway, probably, our heroes are probably similar. It's like, just the grandmothers and grandfathers of everybody.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's such a good thing to have that moment with a record.

• 30:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know, like, and you never forget it.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  Especially in the car. It's a real special place to have a listening experience.

• 30:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, you don't, uh, do you have a car? Do you, do you drive in New York?

• 31:00Speaker 00

  Very little. But I had a 71 Cadillac Sedan DeVille when I was in high school in Texas, and it had no AC one summer, which sucked.

• 31:10Speaker 05

  Been there, been there.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, in Texas. And I, but I still just wanted to get out of my house and drive around at night. And I just remember listening to Otis Redding in the car.

• 31:20Speaker 05

  Damn.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Over and over on my, and this cassette. And it was the best thing ever. That's my, my moment in a car.

• 31:27Speaker 05

  In a car.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  There's always gonna be one, especially given that, like, you tour and I tour, it's like, it was always in our bingo cards.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 05

  Do you wanna try a Michael name?

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's try it.

• 31:41Speaker 05

  We're gonna switch.

• 31:44Speaker 05

  Okay, can we, do you just keep going? All right. Nod. This is the easiest thing I, this is so wonderful.

• 32:11Speaker 03

  I love it when you say my full name And the way you always speak your mind When the needle finally finds the vein And all your little sayings become mine Your brother only shares your family's shame But he doesn't really know you

• 32:39Speaker 03

  I've been spinning out on too many big words You could do without And everything we dare not say out loud Are written on our faces

• 33:04Speaker 03

  There's a water leak the size of Berlin Coming from this vessel that we're in Running from my eyes to your chin Love's a kind of sorrow we're saving When a part of me will miss it A case has never opened

• 33:32Speaker 03

  I've been keeping count Of all the wildflowers where the plane went down And every living soul that's never found Are written in these verses, verses

• 34:07Speaker 03

  I'm finding out that I'm allergic to Every living thing that isn't you As I say it now, I know it's true

• 34:35Speaker 03

  I don't wanna leave this town, but you know very well I can't wait around. But since it's getting too late, they change it now. Might as well embrace it.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  I love it when you say my full name.

• 35:18Speaker 05

  Amazing. Damn.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  That's a beautiful song.

• 35:21Speaker 05

  Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  Start crying.

• 35:27Speaker 05

  Man, I, hearing you play Whirly reminds me of this record that I love so much by you. And I'm forgetting the title of the record, but it has that song "Goodbye" on it.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  Oh, "Say Goodbye"?

• 35:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that's got Whirly. I forgot.

• 35:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  It's got weird chords, yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 05

  Is it that same key?

• 35:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's got a weird chord structure.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  In old days.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  When you let me misbehave.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  Always doing what it lasts. But if you asked I'd come again.

• 36:18Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 05

  Let's do that.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 05

  Ring, it's alright, it's okay.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  That's not right. That's a, it's not an F.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  Is it?

• 36:43Speaker 05

  Is it a different key? Na na na na na do uh uh.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  No, it is right.

• 36:51Speaker 05

  Whoa.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Well, it ain't easy to stay in love if you can't tell lies. But I'll just have to take a bow and say goodbye.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Oh, nice. Yeah, nice. I love that.

• 37:23Speaker 05

  I fucking lo- I, when the, I made my first album, that was a, this is I'm adding myself, but that was like a big reference track for me. I was like,

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Oh, that's cool.

• 37:32Speaker 05

  How do we make it sound like this?

• 37:34Speaker 00

  That album sounds so specific, it, cause I made it with Danger Mouse. And those chords specifically on that song, I mean, those were his chords.

• 37:44Speaker 05

  Okay, you wrote that together?

• 37:45Speaker 00

  We wrote all the songs on that record together. And he's an amazing songwriter. And I had never written with someone in the studio before.

• 37:52Speaker 05

  Really? So you were, you were doing it on your own and then bringing it in?

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Well, or I also sang a lot of songs up to that point by band members and did covers. The album before that, I did write all the songs, kinda, and then, but I, yeah, I brought them in. I, I didn't write them in the studio.

• 38:09Speaker 05

  Did you feel scared to write, um, in a studio? Or was it liberating?

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, Brian and I were friends at that point, so that was good. But I was still kind of freaked out, like, what if I can't come up with anything?

• 38:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  And it was a huge, um, it was like one of the turning points in my songwriting, I think. Cause I realized, he said the best thing, one day we were kind of tooling around with something and I couldn't figure out a bridge and we didn't have any ideas. He's like, it's fine, we'll figure it out, maybe tomorrow or the next day or the next day.

• 38:41Speaker 05

  Whoa.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  And I was like, oh.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  You can do that?

• 38:44Speaker 00

  You mean, I don't have to worry about it? He like took that off my plate. And then we did.

• 38:50Speaker 05

  That's actually, that's so magical because that is how the creative process should be, is that you're taking things off of your own plate and trusting that, that it will roll out.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  When it's ready.

• 39:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, when it's ready and then it's the, and it will be the thing that you want to say.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  That was the biggest lesson and ever since then, I don't force anything.

• 39:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:11Speaker 00

  And so now it's easy. And it's not that it's easy, it's that I'm not, I'm not trying to pull something out that's not there.

• 39:20Speaker 05

  Well, right, it's never easy, but you're not deliberately getting in your own way or making it harder than it has to be.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Comes when it comes.

• 39:29Speaker 05

  It's, yeah, it's so zen, it's so, it's so like, there's so much surrender in it and I, I love it so much. It's probably the thing I'm the most like, I'm learning to be

• 39:42Speaker 05

  more loose with, because it's true. I have, I've had the same experiences with people. I've been lucky enough to be around musicians who are so good at that and they know time management and they know that morale is the biggest thing. It's like the, you know, it's a thing, like my, my dearest friend, Mike Viola, like his whole thing when we've recorded together is very much like, are we not feeling it? Then let's walk away.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 40:13Speaker 05

  It's not because of apath- he is not apathetic, he is not, he just knows when it's gonna like soil an idea for good.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's also, anytime I've recorded something and it's not feeling right, but we still finish it, that's bad juju.

• 40:29Speaker 05

  It's bad. It's bad. It's mistrust.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Sorry, that was weird.

• 40:33Speaker 05

  She's spitting and she's coughing.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  What is in my throat? Yeah. Throat code is loosening.

• 40:39Speaker 05

  Betraying you.

• 40:40Speaker 00

  Excuse me. But yeah, yeah, it's a real thing.

• 40:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's a, yeah, that's a good, that's a good way to put it. Like if it, don't strangle something into

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 05

  existence, that's not gonna, I won't do it.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, but at the same time, you know, we've put in the work and we know. We know the language.

• 40:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  And that's, that is work. It's not like, you know, it's so easy. It's just that we've already done that part. You know, we've learned the language so that we can shake it all up and then like, let it just come out.

• 41:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, unlearn, unlearn.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  You can unlearn it a little.

• 41:13Speaker 05

  So I guess maybe I'll take back my previous statement where I said like, the rules aren't worth learning. I think they actually are.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 05

  Um, but so is flexibility. And so is like, you have to do it all at once.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:26Speaker 05

  I used to, I mean, I think I'm, I'm a recovering perfectionist for sure.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 05

  That's, yeah, I wonder if you have a similar thing, just because of coming from the classical world, like that must have been, you don't.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  No, I'm lazy. I'm the laziest.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  You'd never ever know that.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  Okay, I, I work, I work hard because I'm always working.

• 41:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  But I don't practice well. Like, I, I won't sit at home and work.

• 41:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  Unless I have something to work for.

• 41:55Speaker 05

  I think that's good.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  So that's kind of why I like to stay busy.

• 41:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, busy enough.

• 42:00Speaker 05

  To keep yourself sharp.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's why classical music didn't work for me. Cause I,

• 42:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  I was too lazy.

• 42:07Speaker 05

  Yes, it's not, it's not for the faint of heart.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 42:11Speaker 05

  And it, I mean, also, like, you must have had back issues from practicing for that many hours. Like I,

• 42:18Speaker 00

  No, I didn't practice. That's the problem.

• 42:20Speaker 05

  I see, I see. You didn't even go through a phase.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  I didn't, I never went through a phase. I failed my college piano jury because,

• 42:27Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  I know, I know. I'm getting the sweats just thinking about it. Because I didn't practice. Cause it was classical. Cause I was in jazz school. And that was great with the classical part that you had to do. I failed and then I dropped out.

• 42:40Speaker 05

  I mean, that's badass.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  I'm, don't do that, kids.

• 42:44Speaker 05

  Sorry.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Kids at home do that. Did you, did you go to music school or anything? Like as a, as a, after, after homeschool?

• 42:53Speaker 05

  No, yeah, after. I, I really, uh, thought about it and, and had a few months in my senior year of high school of stress. Cause I just was like, I have not been planning for, for where I'm gonna go. Or I, I, you know, always knew that I wanted to do music, but like, I didn't know that you could actually, you know, very possibly make a career out of it till I was 16. So, um, I, I don't know, I'm still trying to even figure out what it means to make a career out of music. It's very strange.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  Well, it's a lot harder now than it used to be.

• 43:27Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  In a way.

• 43:28Speaker 05

  It's harder and it's stranger. It's getting weirder.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  It's weird. And in a, in a lot of ways, it's easier if you're good at social media.

• 43:36Speaker 05

  Yes, which I am not.

• 43:38Speaker 00

  Most artists aren't.

• 43:39Speaker 05

  It's not my time.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, most artists aren't. Like, it just feels like this, this secondary job, obviously, that.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  That nobody wants to do.

• 43:48Speaker 05

  No one wants to do it. No one is skilled at it.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 05

  Um, that's probably why, like, the younger generation of artists are doing very well, or like, selling out tours in 30 seconds.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  They're great, yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 05

  Cause they've figured it out.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  They know how to be themselves on it, too.

• 44:03Speaker 05

  I know.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  That, that's what it is.

• 44:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  It's not that we can't do it. It's that we have to find a way to just be true to ourselves and do it.

• 44:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  That's the only way to do it.

• 44:12Speaker 05

  And people don't always, like, there's not a lot of, it's not immediate to people if you're like, well, this is how I relate to it. Like, the, the platform, or this is how I want to use it. It's like, it's not, never gonna be probably, or most likely won't be in favor of metrics.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 05

  Blah, blah.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Metrics.

• 44:30Speaker 05

  Metrics.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  Where do we go?

• 44:31Speaker 05

  A word I've.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Where do we just go?

• 44:33Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Have you used that word before?

• 44:34Speaker 05

  Metrics, yeah, yeah, like, it's in my.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  I don't think I've ever used that word.

• 44:39Speaker 05

  It's in my rolodex.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 44:41Speaker 05

  Recently, because I, you, like, when you, when it's time to release an album, all this stuff gets tossed around, all this language, and you're like, huh? Not that word. And then it be, and then I just said it.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Then it's in your head.

• 44:56Speaker 05

  It's in my head. I, I, I'm actually not gonna tell the story. I was gonna tell a story that, I'll just tell you off air someday.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  Tell it, tell it. I told a story about Depends in the last podcast, so.

• 45:10Speaker 05

  So permission?

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're gonna delete it, though.

• 45:14Speaker 05

  I love it. I love it very much. Yeah, basically, the moral of the story is I just, I don't. Social media hurts my feelings.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, you read it. You read it. Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I guess I mean that in less of like, like, it actually hurts my feelings. It's more just like the idea of like, technology and trying to get good at it, that kind of technology. I'm just like, that's not my bag and I'll, I will get left behind. That's fine. I don't wanna, I don't wanna like, try and compete and on TikTok, I'm not gonna do it.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Until you wanna sell a tour.

• 45:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, right. That's when the deal with the devil's made.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  It's like, there's all these if thens, so don't count it out.

• 45:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I know. It's, it's.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  Talk the tick.

• 45:57Speaker 05

  I'm gonna talk the tick.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Tick the talk.

• 45:59Speaker 05

  Talk the tick. Do you own TikTok?

• 46:02Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't know. I don't even know. I do videos and sometimes my manager posts them and it's great because I don't know how.

• 46:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, I love that.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  I don't have my login info.

• 46:15Speaker 05

  When did, when did it become apparent that you were like, oh shit, that Instagram and everything is a, I have to like play this game?

• 46:24Speaker 00

  I'm still pretty, I still come from the before times. So, you know, I had like a built in audience in a lucky way, but I think, I, you know, I think during the pandemic, I started doing these live streams and those were fun.

• 46:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Because I was just playing.

• 46:43Speaker 05

  Interactive.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I was just playing.

• 46:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  And so that was cool. That was my way.

• 46:50Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 46:50Speaker 00

  But I don't do that anymore.

• 46:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  I probably should.

• 46:54Speaker 05

  No, you should, like, I don't believe in should. If you want, you should do it.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Exactly. It's hard.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  At that time, it was good for me because it was the only time I played music all week.

• 47:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  I would do once a week and it was the only time I touched any music.

• 47:09Speaker 05

  Did you have, um, a kid at that point?

• 47:11Speaker 00

  I had two little kids.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  Wow, so you have two or more than that?

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Oh, God, more. That would be hard.

• 47:18Speaker 05

  No. You're done.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  I'm done.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  Let everyone know you're done.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  So done. Did you grow up with siblings?

• 47:25Speaker 05

  I'm the oldest of five girls.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  What?

• 47:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, which is wild.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Excuse me?

• 47:33Speaker 05

  I know.

• 47:33Speaker 00

  All homeschooled?

• 47:34Speaker 05

  All homeschooled. My mom is in the last year of...

• 47:38Speaker 00

  She's still doing it?

• 47:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, she's in her senior year.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  Hats off. Well, interesting.

• 47:43Speaker 05

  Megan's a badass. She really is. She's like, and like, has remained kind of in love with it. And it's really cool. All my sisters are awesome. Like, in a big family, there's usually room for someone to get lost in translation or for there to be one kid that you're like, I'm worried about.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 05

  And all of them are just like, they're so intelligent and funny and beautiful. Like, they're like the people that I would probably want to be friends with if we weren't blood-related. Which is really, like, that's...

• 48:14Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 48:14Speaker 05

  Not a given. That's really sweet.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 48:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a fun, it was a crazy household to grow up in, as you can imagine.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  Sounds a little crazy.

• 48:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was, there was a lot of like, fights over clothes. That was like, the only tension that we had among us as, well, at least like, the three oldest. Because we started to like, have the same shoe size at some point and...

• 48:40Speaker 00

  I can't relate. I grew up an only...

• 48:42Speaker 05

  Were you really?

• 48:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 05

  Did you want siblings or were you like?

• 48:46Speaker 00

  I did.

• 48:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  No, I did. And I grew up an only child with a single mom.

• 48:50Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  But then, I have a half-sister and we met when we were grown, pretty much. And we both wanted that, so it was good.

• 48:57Speaker 05

  That's beautiful.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  Now I have like, a grown-up sister and we're pretty close because we met when I was 18. So at this point, we've known each other a pretty long time.

• 49:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that's like, those are such formative years.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, we missed the main formative years, but...

• 49:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Still had some.

• 49:14Speaker 05

  That's so sweet.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 50:29Speaker 00

  Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  You want to switch back? Should we do one more? Yeah, just do one more song.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  So you use a lot of different tunings, right?

• 50:49Speaker 05

  A lot of different tunings. I was in this like strange suspended tuning for the first song we did, Wake. It's C, G, D, F, A, C. And I like... Found it online and wanted to like, at the beginning of the new year of 2024, wanted to do something that felt like I was stretching myself. And I was at war with it for like, a week straight, just kind of like almost like banging my head against the wall, going like, why, why I don't understand how this works. And I love songs for this reason, because you can find like a tiny little pattern of chords.

• 51:32Speaker 05

  And then just, or like a thing that works and you, and you go, I think I, I understand where to put my fingers. And you understand, like you figure out where else on the neck or in the tuning, there's, there's more possibility. It just, it's so, it's really fun. But this song is in open D.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  Oh, it's pretty.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  She's a classic. This is a steak of a tuning.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  That's the steak of an alt tuning. Okay.

• 51:58Speaker 05

  The open D.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  Thanks, Ben. And you always play an acoustic through an amp?

• 52:05Speaker 05

  If I'm playing, right now I am, yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  But do you usually on stage?

• 52:09Speaker 05

  I, yes.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  I didn't know you could do that until I realized that Willie Nelson plays his acoustic through his nylon trigger.

• 52:16Speaker 05

  Does he?

• 52:17Speaker 00

  He plays it through an amp. That's why it sounds so specific.

• 52:20Speaker 05

  Have you ever sung with Willie?

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Oh, I would love to hear that.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  He's so fun to sing with because he phrases weird. But then when you're singing with him, he's kind of following you, but you're also following him.

• 52:33Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  So it's like a fun chase.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  It's like a wormhole, but it's a good one.

• 52:40Speaker 05

  Spiral staircase.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 52:42Speaker 05

  A Tom and Jerry episode?

• 52:45Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 52:47Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  Once your girl, I'm always your girl. When I'm here, or when I'm there, on a plane headed somewhere. You were staring down the cars, hoping it would be one of ours. Children and grandchildren riding your cars. But how long were you waiting for me?

• 53:48Speaker 03

  To make a left down your street? It's not if darling, it's when. There's always something left unsaid. Were your eyes green? Were they blue? What was it that I forgot to ask you?

• 54:32Speaker 03

  Busy hands I set on down To say I love you right out loud. I'll bet you're making heaven laugh. But it feels like tears and memories are all we have.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  Once I knew it, I was always a know-it-all. Too busy, too stressed out to take your call.

• 55:27Speaker 03

  Thought I would always find you there, sitting in your TV chair. Well, time isn't a bomb, I've been alive somewhere. Then I said you were waiting for me.

• 55:49Speaker 03

  To let go. To let it be.

• 55:59Speaker 03

  It's not if darling, it's when. There's always something left unsaid. Were your eyes green, were they blue? What was it that I forgot to ask you?

• 56:31Speaker 03

  Busy hands are set on down. To say I love you here and now. Did God need a new lead in his band? When this world and its people are all we have.

• 57:19Speaker 03

  Once you're girl, I'm always your girl.

• 57:58Speaker 05

  That's perfect.

• 58:00Speaker 00

  That song makes me cry.

• 58:02Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  It's so beautiful.

• 58:04Speaker 05

  Thank you. Man, I just got lost playing with you. It's, you're, it's funny that you just said about yourself that you're like, I'm so lazy. Like, everything, everything about the way you just played is like, proof of someone who's put in so much work. And also to be free.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:23Speaker 05

  And everything you've played just works, it plays around and within the rhythm so beautifully that I feel overwhelmed. Thank you.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  Me too. I'm glad you changed the key because you were also very free with this song. You must have played it for a long time.

• 58:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 58:42Speaker 00

  So it's much different from the recording. So I'm glad I got to throw my notes out.

• 58:46Speaker 05

  Me too.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  And we just got to play.

• 58:48Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 58:48Speaker 00

  It's always better that way.

• 58:50Speaker 05

  It's always better to just, yeah, play music. That's what it's for.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  It was beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me.

• 58:57Speaker 05

  Thank you so much for having me today. This, this made my whole week.

• 59:00Speaker 00

  More, please. Let's hang.

• 59:02Speaker 05

  Let's hang. I'll see you in New York.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  Cool. Yeah. Yay, I knew we'd be friends.

• 59:07Speaker 05

  I knew it. I felt it in my bones.

• 59:10Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans in amounts subject to lender approval.

• 59:38Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:00:35Speaker 04

  Incredible.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  I loved playing with her.

• 1:00:37Speaker 04

  Those songs are so, just, to use the perfect word, arresting.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  They are. Those three songs we did specifically are, they're all good, though. Everything I've listened to of hers is, I'm always like, what is that? I hope we can do more together, because she's so good. If you want to know which songs we played in this episode, the first song was "Wake" from the album Ace, which is from 2025. The second song we played was "My Full Name," also from the 2025 album Ace. And the third song was called "Life According to Rachel," from her album Revealer, recorded in 2022. Special thanks to Madison Cunningham for joining us today, and we'll be back next week with Jason Moran. Norah Jones is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Norah Jones.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  This episode was recorded at Westlake Studios in Los Angeles, California, by Thomas Warren. Assistant engineer was Danforth Webster. Backline tech, Jason Moser. Mixed by Jamie Landry. Audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler. Additional recording by Matt Marinelli. Creative consulting by First Three. Artwork by Eliza Fry. Photography by Shirvin Lenez. Produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runtog. Marketing lead, Allison Cantor-Graeber. Thanks for listening, watching, and tell your friends.

• 1:02:02Speaker 00

  I don't know why I said that. I don't know. We're keeping it. Tell your friends. All right.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  If you love music and great artists' interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Niall Rogers. This new series follows Niall as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. This is an iHeart Podcast.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Guaranteed Human.