Julian Lage

GRAMMY-winning guitarist and composer Julian Lage joins Norah for a conversation that highlights his singular voice in music and a career defined by curiosity and craft.

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• 1:35Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Norah Jones. And today, I'm playing along with Julian Lage. I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Nora. And with me, always and forever, is Sarah Oda. Hello, hello. Our guest today is...

• 2:02Speaker 04

  The incredible guitar player and prolific composer Julian Lage. He's put out an extensive collection of albums, both on his own and collaborating with others. He starred in a documentary film titled Jewels at Eight, made in 1996 by Mark Becker, which featured his virtuosity at a very young age. And now, as you'll hear, his performances continue to be profoundly intelligent and captivating. He's one of the most humble and unpresumptuous musicians we met on this podcast, wouldn't you say?

• 2:29Speaker 00

  He's incredibly humble for how good he is and how long he's been good.

• 2:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, and he's a very open and approachable musician, I feel like, considering how skilled he is.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  He's very much a student of life, it seems like. He's kind of one of those.

• 2:46Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  In the best, most beautiful way.

• 2:48Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:49Speaker 00

  Yes, and it was so fun to get to play with him. We have a lot of mutual friends, and I've known Julian a long time. We also had his wife Margaret Glassby on this podcast last season. She's an incredible musician as well.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  And Julian has a new album that just came out last week titled Scenes from Above. This project is with a new quartet featuring John Medeski, Jorge Roder, and Kenny Wallison. So be sure to check that out.

• 3:11Speaker 00

  We had a great time. I hope you enjoy it. Here we go with Julian Lage.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  Do you sit at home and play?

• 3:32Speaker 05

  Not as much as I used to. Alone? Not nearly as much as I used to. I want to. I keep thinking of it that, you know, music, it really is like medicinal, you know? And I think there's that healing component that you can only work on if you are doing it regardless of your work life. Like, this is what I'm gonna do even if the world ended tomorrow because it's what my soul needs, you know, or it's the work I'm here on this planet to do. Those questions I think about a lot.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Really?

• 4:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, when I'm in touch with it, then I will sit down, even if it's 10 minutes, and go, Wow, this is a blessing and it's not about anything else, you know?

• 4:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 05

  But I feel like I'm due for an extended period of that.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:14Speaker 05

  You know, so I'm kind of just...

• 4:15Speaker 00

  Well, you kind of have to refill the tank a little.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  Thousand... I think it's all about regeneration.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  But until you stop, you don't have the gas.

• 4:23Speaker 05

  Well, you don't have the gas or the perspective. Have you felt the two? You know, you're working and you're like, you think you're one place in the whole continuum and then you listen back a week later and you go, "I sound flattened," you know? Or "I sound worried or afraid." Or, you know, you can hear those things about your own playing.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:40Speaker 05

  "I gotta take care of that guy," you know? That's the responsibility, I think.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm so glad we're doing this.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, should we play a tune?

• 4:47Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  I am curious, but for all the listeners who love you, especially the guitar players, what is that that you're playing?

• 4:54Speaker 05

  The guitar I'm playing here is a Nacho caster. And Nacho is a Spanish builder.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  Adorable.

• 5:02Speaker 05

  I know, he's the... I think he's the greatest. I mean, the Telecaster is an old, old wonderful instrument. He happens to make versions of them that feel genuine. They feel old, they feel broken in, but they also have a modern quality. So you play them in a modern context and with modern amps and whatnot. And it feels like it should be there, you know? They're stable.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 5:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's a special one, so that's my main...

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Nacho caster.

• 5:31Speaker 05

  Nacho caster. I use a lot of guitars by Callings as well. Great Texas company in Austin. And they made the acoustic play and also another electric that's my... Another main guitar. But I keep it as focused on only a couple guitars as possible.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, that... I get that.

• 5:48Speaker 05

  Do you know what I mean?

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Well, I feel like it's easy to go nuts.

• 5:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  And that might drive you nuts.

• 5:54Speaker 05

  Well, it can certainly scatter your focus, you know? And for me, guitars are always teachers, right? Every guitar kind of teaches you what you need to know about it. And going through that experience, you become better, fuller.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 05

  So I think guitars are with us until they no longer need to be with us and then they go somewhere else.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 6:12Speaker 05

  You're kind of... There's a stewardship involved.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  But anyway, thanks for asking.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Nacho, you make awesome guitars.

• 6:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, Nacho. I love it. And so it looks, you know, it looks and feels old, but it's a modern instrument. So I like it. What's your main electric?

• 6:26Speaker 00

  I used to play like a Mustang.

• 6:29Speaker 05

  That's what I saw. I think I saw.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  It was great, but it really didn't stay in tune very great. It had a floating bridge.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  So I switched to a Jazzmaster after I recorded at The Loft.

• 6:39Speaker 05

  This makes sense.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  And I played one of Tweety's Jazzmasters. And then I feel like, I want to say Mark found it for me. Did you find it? I can't remember who found it for me. Somebody maybe Loft-related.

• 6:49Speaker 05

  That's so cool. They're so, when a Jazzmaster is good, it's like superior to most everything.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  It's so pretty. I love it.

• 6:56Speaker 05

  They're so good. Oh, that's cool.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  I have small hands, so I can't really play anything big. And I also, I'm not really a bar chord girl, so.

• 7:05Speaker 05

  Bar chords are hard.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  I really need to.

• 7:07Speaker 05

  Let me just say.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  I really should practice my guitar, but.

• 7:10Speaker 05

  Guitar is funny like that. It's kind of as hard as we want it to be, I find.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 05

  Do you know what I mean?

• 7:16Speaker 00

  That makes sense.

• 7:17Speaker 05

  Like I was watching Richie Havens play when we were talking about him with the attacks and being like, well, he found this, his language, and he doesn't seem stumped.

• 7:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 05

  You know, and you just go, Jim Hall was the same way, Jeff Beck's, all these master players, they just kind of, kind of know thyself. Like what can you do? What do you want to do? And then do it. There's not really any.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  It's almost like within your limitations where you find your voice.

• 7:38Speaker 05

  Completely. And it's not, and limitations don't have to be narrow. You know, it can be, and I think that's.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  But they can be, and they can still be.

• 7:46Speaker 05

  Oh, they can be the best. Guitar is such a friendly instrument.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  I mean, it seems like it.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  After you get the first initial.

• 7:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're gonna go, wait a second.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  It hurts at first.

• 7:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, it does, right? Remember that, where you're just like, oh.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 05

  But, well, I'm down to play absolutely anything you want.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Okay, well, I was thinking we could start with Day and Age, but

• 8:06Speaker 05

  That sounds great.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  since you have the electric, maybe we should start with something else.

• 8:09Speaker 05

  Well, it works well on the electric. Why don't I play?

• 8:11Speaker 00

  It does? Okay.

• 8:12Speaker 05

  Sure it does.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Something about the modulation.

• 8:14Speaker 05

  So we're in.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  made me happy because.

• 8:17Speaker 05

  So E, right, so.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  I like the way you play it.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  So here's E.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Oh, it's so pretty.

• 8:25Speaker 05

  And then we'll listen again.

• 8:32Speaker 00

  Wait, what do you do there?

• 8:36Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  Do you do a weird voice? You do the willy?

• 8:39Speaker 05

  I do this.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  Which is the same bass note.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, basically.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  It's basically like one, four, five. Okay, cool. I'm not missing something.

• 8:53Speaker 05

  You're not missing nothing. What do you think? Do we play the melody?

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Why don't you play the melody a few times?

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'll play a short solo or something. You want to play something on it, too?

• 9:02Speaker 00

  I can play something on it.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  Play something on it. And then you want to get us to B and then start singing?

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Okay, and I'll be like, "Hero!" Okay. All right, so I hope you don't mind. I wrote some lyrics.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  I'm so glad you did.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  I don't know if they're amazing, but I don't know. It's such a simple, sweet song. I thought it would be fun.

• 9:19Speaker 05

  It seems to be asking for it, you know?

• 9:22Speaker 00

  I feel like every song of yours asks for it. They're so melodic.

• 9:26Speaker 05

  Thanks, thank you.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  It's such a, like, gift. Like, I think it's what makes your music so special. It's instrumental, but it's actually just singable melodies.

• 9:37Speaker 05

  That's so cool.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  Not everyone does that. So it's great.

• 9:40Speaker 05

  That makes me feel good, thank you.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  You must have the soul of a singer.

• 9:44Speaker 05

  I certainly, I feel like I'm attracted to that kind of narrative, right? Because melody is so interesting. I, like so many topics, my understanding of melody keeps changing. But I think it's, you know, the path of least resistance as far as communication. I think certain sentiments come across as, well, that's melodic because it needs to be. Versus, I'm going to try to put this disposition on everything. If anything, I've struggled writing songs that don't need to be melodic to get their point across. They might be textural. They might be rhythmic, they might be architectural. But if it's just me at home playing the guitar, I have an affinity for things that... Get stuck in my own head, really, and I can't stop playing them.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it's the way to go.

• 10:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, I like it.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  I think that's the goal.

• 10:32Speaker 05

  I think that's what we're trying to do.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, don't overthink it.

• 10:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, let's try this one.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  Hey, it's been a day.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Hey, it's been an age.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  All this time I pray That I could see your face.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Will I find you in the morning?

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Will you appear in the night?

• 14:08Speaker 00

  On some sunny day, that's right.

• 14:20Speaker 00

  If you turn away Or take me for a ride.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  In my heart I'll stay In hopes to turn the tide.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Well, I'll ask you in the morning. You'll tell me in the night.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  On some sunny day.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Well, I'll ask you in the morning. You'll tell me in the night. On some sunny day. That's right.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  On some sunny day. That's right.

• 15:40Speaker 05

  Hey, that's, that's great.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  That's so fun.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  You sound fantastic.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks. I got a little lost, but it kind of worked with the chord.

• 15:51Speaker 05

  I'm telling you, there's no-

• 15:52Speaker 00

  Luckily, we picked the right transition.

• 15:54Speaker 05

  We did, we got there. That's fun.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  That's fun.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  Hey, thanks for that.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  Thanks a lot for that.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  It's a great tune, it's like so-

• 16:02Speaker 05

  Hearing you phrase, it's really inspiring. It's just the way you can place things, where you place them, that's tremendous.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  Thanks, it's a beautiful song. It kind of has like an old spiritual vibe, you know?

• 16:15Speaker 05

  Those are my favorite kinds of songs.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  Mine too.

• 16:17Speaker 05

  Right, though? Where there's, the DNA is obviously not, okay, here's, here's a hit, this is a, I'm trying to impress you, it's like-

• 16:24Speaker 00

  No.

• 16:25Speaker 05

  No, it's like, um-

• 16:26Speaker 00

  It's like, did I write this?

• 16:27Speaker 05

  Yes. Or was this already written? Or was this already found, you know, in the world?

• 16:31Speaker 00

  It's so beautiful. I tried to keep the lyrics sort of like, you know, I like when you can interpret lyrics your own way, but also when they're very clear to you. And not vague on purpose, you know?

• 16:43Speaker 05

  That makes total sense.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  And I find recently that if I'm writing to God, for instance, and I'm not, I'm not necessarily very religious, but if I'm writing to God, then it really means something. And it's also easily interpreted.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  That makes complete sense.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Into like a lover or a friend.

• 16:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  It's like a thing.

• 16:59Speaker 05

  I, I, I've thought about that before. I've talked to Margaret about it.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Really?

• 17:03Speaker 05

  You know, oh my God, yeah, the, the nature of songs that, um-

• 17:09Speaker 05

  I guess are touching or scratching at universality.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:13Speaker 05

  And not in a popular sense. Not like, well, everyone will, how could you find fault with this? This is, everyone's gonna love this. It's not that.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Not in a bland, boring way.

• 17:23Speaker 05

  No, no, no. Exactly where you take out all the nutrients. It's not that. It's exactly like you're saying, there's these kind of archetypes of humanity in life. You know, it's kind of the Joseph Campbell thing. You know, it's like where there are these generations after generations of people from all over the world, we gravitate to stories.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 05

  And they tend to have similar themes. And because these themes are the themes we need to make sense of this life. And so I think that's what you're saying resonates completely. And I'm always, I am thinking about that. And I can, like so many cool things, you know it when you know it, when you hear it.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  Otherwise, you can be poking around in the dark, but then it happens and you go, oh, hey, I think that's, I think that's bigger than me.

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  It's fantastic. Music's the best.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  I know, it really is. I know, I feel so lucky sometimes.

• 18:10Speaker 05

  We're lucky, we're lucky.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really special. And it's nice when you feel like you can just play.

• 18:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  I keep telling my kids, they're like complaining about piano lessons. I'm like, okay, I didn't like piano lessons either.

• 18:25Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  But now I can just play and it's great. Now I can just speak the language.

• 18:30Speaker 05

  Well, you can do it so fluently. I mean, it's, I remember growing up, I felt similar to what you're talking about, where I was like, I remember, I remember having this distinct feeling as a kid where I thought, okay, the whole point of studying is so that no one, no adult who I play with or want to play with, could find a reason why I'm ineligible to have a meaningful, like, musical conversation. Do you know what I mean? I was kind of, I don't know.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  I definitely wasn't thinking that way when I was a kid, no.

• 19:01Speaker 05

  I was, you know, I was, I was all in it. I was trying to figure it out. I was so obsessed with it, you know?

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know, actually.

• 19:09Speaker 05

  Well, that's, when did you start, though?

• 19:10Speaker 00

  I started at seven and I wasn't even good till like five minutes ago. I don't even, you know, like, I've always been kind of a slacker, but I think I got really into it in high school. So when did you start, start?

• 19:23Speaker 05

  I started, I would have been five. My dad played, but my father played. He started kind of when I started.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 19:30Speaker 05

  It was beautiful.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  That's a really fun way to bond.

• 19:33Speaker 05

  It was such a way to bond. I mean, my whole family, my mother and father, it's amazing familial structure. And I'm the youngest of five kids.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 19:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  That's a thing.

• 19:42Speaker 05

  It's a thing, you know, so the point being that, you know, what's your, what are you gonna get into? Because everyone's preoccupied and getting older and doing their thing. So it just felt natural that when I started that I was kind of, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna really go in. But it was, I don't know, I think it was just about being close with my father.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 05

  I think it was about having.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  You were into it, into that time together.

• 20:09Speaker 05

  Well, it was fabulous. You know, he would take lessons and come home and teach me what he learned. And then we would take the lessons together as I got older. And then I would take the lessons and he would come with me.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  Oh, that's really sweet.

• 20:20Speaker 05

  Right, so there was this transformational quality.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  That's a nice bonding story.

• 20:25Speaker 05

  It's a, it was, it's true.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  At what point did you surpass him?

• 20:28Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't think I ever will.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Really? Is he still around?

• 20:32Speaker 05

  No, sadly, my father passed.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm sorry. Did he still play?

• 20:37Speaker 05

  He didn't play, but I'll tell you this much. Without a doubt, my father's the most brilliant guitarist who never, not never, but didn't play, play the guitar. He has, there's an ability that he, that's very embedded in me now. And it has with my whole life because from him. But he could kind of objectively understand the inner workings of really anything.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 05

  And he was a brilliant visual artist and kind of a child prodigy as a visual artist as a kid.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 21:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, and then he, and then he stopped doing it for some time. But I think in seeing me, he saw the potential for the two kind of forks in the road. You can exploit, a young person can feel pressure to be something, or they can feel nurtured and protected and allowed to grow. My parents both saw that so vividly. So I was the beneficiary of him really just seeing the whole world so clearly.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  And we would watch guitar players, and even if he did play, say, do you notice how this player that, you know, they're, they're great for about like 60% of their solo, and then something always goes off the rails. So I'd be like. He's right, you know, what is it? You know, then we both kind of studied and analyzed.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  And you're a kid.

• 21:49Speaker 05

  I'm a kid, but I mean, this happened through until and through my 30s. And we would talk about these things.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 21:55Speaker 05

  It was so marvelous. So, anyway, all to say, I was serious about it because I was serious about being close to him.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  That's pretty cool.

• 22:02Speaker 05

  It's really nice. It's, I mean, it's a gift beyond words, truly.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  But you were really serious about it.

• 22:07Speaker 05

  I was, I didn't see you. Yeah, I was really, I was, I was like, I was, I just wanted to, I don't know, figure it out.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 05

  I had a lot of great mentors.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 05

  You know, I took lessons with everyone who would teach me, still do.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  How close to San Francisco were you?

• 22:23Speaker 05

  So, I grew up in Santa Rosa, California, so it's about 60 miles, about an hour north.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 22:27Speaker 05

  Wine country, smack dab in the middle of like

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 22:30Speaker 05

  That world. And it's, you know, the Bay Area, as you well know, it's like, it's a rich history.

• 22:35Speaker 00

  So many great musicians.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  So many, and a lot of the people that I was around were, had been Californians for a long time. So that meant you were interfacing with the Grateful Dead scene, Jerry's World, Santana's World. Lot of different stuff, jazz, Denny Zeitlin was a really great, you know, jazz piano player. You have the Vince Guaraldi, I mean, the people were around who made important music. And if they weren't around, the people who worked with them were around. So it was rather fluorescent. And I grew up in a time before, I'm of the generation that's right before the internet, really.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  And it, thank God, you know, so I, there was no, there was no nothing. I would just go play restaurant gigs, take lessons, study, go do the thing.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  That's so cool.

• 23:17Speaker 05

  It was pretty awesome.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Did you play in the city a lot, in high school?

• 23:20Speaker 05

  I did, I would, you know, rehearsals, sessions with friends, Yoshis.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:25Speaker 05

  You know, the clubs that were around.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  That's so cool.

• 23:27Speaker 05

  It was cool.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Rogers, producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of the group Chic. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

• 24:32Speaker 06

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this, I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  To rising stars like Alex Warren. You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story. It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:18Speaker 05

  When did you first play a gig under your own name, though?

• 25:21Speaker 00

  Well, I think I started playing jazz trio stuff in high school.

• 25:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  I mean, not gigs, like at a coffee shop, but in college, yeah, I did like restaurant stuff. And then I was in a band that wasn't my name, probably when I moved to New York.

• 25:38Speaker 05

  Wow, did get that.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  But I really was just playing jazz when I moved to New York.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  And I got close with Jesse Harris, who is How I Met You.

• 25:46Speaker 05

  That's right, that's right.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Like years ago.

• 25:48Speaker 05

  Years ago.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  And him and another, you know, Richard Julian and some other friends, like I would go see them at the songwriter club at the living room.

• 25:56Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, of course.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  And then I got into songwriting.

• 25:58Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  And then when I started playing my own songs, it was with Jesse and he was, I was singing his songs and my songs.

• 26:06Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  And we just decided to put it under my name.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  And then it went from there.

• 26:11Speaker 05

  That's amazing. Did you feel, I'm always curious about this, and specifically, frankly, with you, I mean, you're Relationship to the instrument and sound is so, I mean especially being in the room next to you. I see, I like so, it's like, wow, this sound emerges from the instrument in this different way. And that is just so, it's so cool. You never know that until you're next to your favorite people, but um, did you feel, did you ever feel a tug of war between being the songwriter and the person who's rendering the music? Because I certainly have.

• 26:41Speaker 00

  Really?

• 26:41Speaker 05

  Well, absolutely, because I think they can be different um.

• 26:45Speaker 00

  Different muscle?

• 26:46Speaker 05

  They're different muscle, but they're, they're, it's kind of like, I think of Coltrane all the time with the way he, I mean, this is true of so many of the masters, but specifically about Coltrane, the way he could, you know, write these songs that would, it was just enough to get him into the space as an improviser that he needed to be.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Oh, it was a vehicle for him to really do that thing.

• 27:06Speaker 05

  Absolutely, and yet on their own, they're also magical. You know, Ornette, same thing, you could, there's those people that strike that balance and, and as you have too. And so I'm just curious, do you, um, I know some people talk about like, okay, I write to push myself to sing different or to play different. Other people say, no, I write what I sing and what I play so that I've got good material, that's easy, you know? Did you ever feel like that was even a question or were you like, no, no brainer, I'm gonna write it, I'm gonna play it?

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Well, I think I started covering songs because I was singing jazz and I wouldn't write. I wrote like a song in high school, which is kind of embarrassed me, so I think I shied, I like.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  You kind of recoil?

• 27:46Speaker 00

  My turtle head went back in, like I, I didn't, I didn't think I could write. And it wasn't until I moved to New York and I think I had gone to the living room and then I went back to my apartment and I had an old guitar. I didn't have a piano yet, you know? And so I would just play five chords in my guitar and I wrote Come Away With Me.

• 28:08Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  And it was so, it's such a simple song, it's nothing fancy. But as we just played, like sometimes that's the best because it's hard felt.

• 28:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Clichés don't matter when you mean them, you know what I mean?

• 28:22Speaker 05

  So true.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  So I think, you know, I always liked that song and it kind of worked out for me. Um, after that though, I got real heady about songwriting and I felt like I had to sort of prove myself as a songwriter and I overthought it and I would, I would do those things where I would take stuff out to be more vague. And I think in the end, I didn't write any songs like I hate hate that are on albums necessarily, but. And in the end, I realized that when it's just a bolt of lightning inspiration, it's better.

• 28:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  So the last 10 years, I've felt really confident in

• 28:57Speaker 05

  That's so cool.

• 28:58Speaker 00

  writing because I'm not trying to write.

• 28:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, you trust that it's kind of

• 29:01Speaker 00

  It's just like

• 29:01Speaker 05

  one and the same, right? Yeah. It's integrated.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  And you know those, those periods where you think you, you have nothing to say and writer's block? I never worry about that anymore. I think I did for a time.

• 29:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  But I always feel like it's gonna, you just gotta fill it up and it'll come out again.

• 29:15Speaker 05

  I think that's what we keep learning.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 29:17Speaker 05

  All the masters always say it, it's like, just go, just go.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Unless you've kind of isolated yourself and you stop listening to music, that, I mean, that's a whole other thing.

• 29:26Speaker 05

  That's a great point, though. And that's a dangerous spot.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  That's, yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 05

  You're kind of drinking your own

• 29:30Speaker 00

  Deep depression?

• 29:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 29:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, you kind of, you're drinking your own Kool-Aid and you're

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 05

  I, I feel, I feel that was so, I mean, I have empathy, I'll say it that way. I have empathy for when musician feels like their job is to render the thing that they think they're supposed to do.

• 29:44Speaker 00

  I don't know many people like that.

• 29:46Speaker 05

  I know, I, I see it, I see it.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  I don't see you as that.

• 29:49Speaker 05

  I don't feel that way fortunately, but I

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Who in our, like, mutual friend group, like, I don't even know those people.

• 29:54Speaker 05

  Because I think we're kind of in a community where there's not, um, I think there's a premium put on

• 29:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 05

  a certain thing. I, I guess I think of it more for

• 30:03Speaker 05

  maybe a, a student, let's say, or someone who's coming up and feels the pressure, okay, I have this, you know, I have these abilities as a player. I've also got to be a songwriter. I've also got to be successful and I've also got to have a hit. And that's when I think you see that you start pulling at the thread.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  And I've also got to be really good at self-promotion.

• 30:19Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Because social media.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  I need to be really good at selfies.

• 30:24Speaker 05

  Forget it.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  Now it's like, you just add to the list.

• 30:27Speaker 05

  Add to the pile.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  I feel so bad for young people.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  I think there's a tremendous amount of empathy and compassion needed because it is a different field. It's why we all have to stick together intergenerationally, because I think that's how we all get

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 05

  through stuff, you know? But it, so it's more in that environment that I can see someone thinking, well, you know, I got attention when I did this, so I better keep doing that.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 05

  He said, no, no, no, it's, you know, you get it, it's, don't worry about it.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  So how did you shake that? Like?

• 30:51Speaker 05

  I, I don't know how.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Did you ever have that feeling?

• 30:54Speaker 05

  I, I, I remember, um, it's a good question, if I really think about it.

• 31:00Speaker 05

  My fir-, my first record I didn't make as a leader until I, I think I was 21, 22.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  But I'd been playing really seriously since I was five and I was out with Gary Burton's band for about a decade from

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 31:10Speaker 05

  15 until I was 25. I was like

• 31:12Speaker 00

  So cool.

• 31:12Speaker 05

  It was great. It was one of those rare mentorships. I was really I guess my point being, I had no qualms. I was like, this is great. I don't have to be the guy. I can be the simple.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  You weren't staring at a mountain of ambition, of extra stuff that you were waiting to do.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  Zero. No, no, no, none of it.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  See, that's how I was when I moved to New York.

• 31:31Speaker 05

  Is that right?

• 31:32Speaker 00

  Well, because I was really young and it all happened really fast. So I hadn't had time to look toward what I was doing yet.

• 31:39Speaker 05

  Thank God.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  But I think that's a very lucky and rare place to be.

• 31:44Speaker 05

  I think it's a fortuitous thing because it can allow you to just redirect energy where it's needed. Like, what's the thing I think that I want to do? And it's kind of that, you know, it's part of it, I think, for me was always, and I say this with tremendous respect. I mean, I really do. That I always felt like jazz, my relationship to improvised music, was about celebrating a subculture. You know, I was like, this is great because no one cares. If no one cares, I can do anything.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 32:15Speaker 05

  You know, it's not like, no one cares, I must be doing something wrong. I thought, and I don't mean no one cares.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  No, but you weren't, you didn't feel the pressure.

• 32:21Speaker 05

  No, I was. I was like, wait, this is.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  I know what you mean.

• 32:25Speaker 05

  Do you know what I mean? It was like this, me doing this.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  It's niche.

• 32:28Speaker 05

  It's niche. And the people who know it and love it, like yourself and everyone you mentioned before, and we're like, we're going to stick together through all of this. And so I felt like I didn't have any pressure to really go out there and do it. Now, similar to you, once I started, I made this record. I think I felt a pressure to reinvent maybe myself within my own orb. I had a band that I really liked. I liked it then, I like it now. But it was hard, you know, it was kind of a chamber group. It was like acoustic guitar, saxophone, cello, bass and percussion. And I said, I don't want a trio, I don't want real drum set.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  You didn't want a traditional setup.

• 33:07Speaker 05

  I thought this was my offering, was I'm going to be non-traditional. And we made a lot of cool music. I don't think.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  But were you already writing from a young age?

• 33:14Speaker 05

  I was, I was.

• 33:15Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:16Speaker 05

  I forgot. Someone the other day sent me a recording of my demos from when I was like 13.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Aww.

• 33:21Speaker 05

  And I was, I was kind of, certain things were better then than they are now. I would talk about not being self-conscious.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, the beginner's mind.

• 33:29Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, I wrote all these tunes and these rhythm changes and things.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 33:32Speaker 05

  It was great. Looking back, I think when I first started getting that, okay, I got to have a chamber ensemble, I got to merge these worlds. It was really, I truly mean it. It was a wonderful, necessary thing for me to do. But I think what made it cool was the the human beings involved, not because I had such a clever idea.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Not the, not, not.

• 33:52Speaker 05

  Not the concept, not.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Not the concept.

• 33:54Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  It's just the fact that you guys were all playing music together and vibing and.

• 33:58Speaker 05

  And just listening and loving one another. It's exactly.

• 34:02Speaker 05

  I've rebranded why that, you know, to myself, I've reframed why that was important. At the time, I thought it was, was something else.

• 34:11Speaker 05

  But it's been so lovely because over the years I realized that to pick up a guitar and play it at all is really special. You know, and, and, and if I can celebrate that, whether it's through the prism of an original, an improvised piece, a standard, it doesn't really matter.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. You, you just have to put your, your heart on it.

• 34:30Speaker 05

  That's it. Well, no, you do that. That's why it's so fun to play with you because you, that, that. Obviously you possess that and, and, and share with great generosity and,

• 34:41Speaker 05

  it's just a reminder. That's the whole thing. It's the whole thing. Well, we were on tour in Europe recently with Jorge Roder, bass, brilliant bassist, one of my best friends in the world. We've made, he's been in my first band and all the way to now.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  He's so good.

• 34:54Speaker 05

  He's so good. And, and we, we just happened to have a few dates with Joey Barron. We were playing with him. He was fabulous. Have you played with Joey?

• 35:02Speaker 00

  I know, but I, you know, I know through Jesse a little bit.

• 35:04Speaker 05

  I think you would have a ball. He's, he's, to me, he's such a bastion of what we're talking about.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:09Speaker 05

  It's how we relate to the music and, and he's living proof of that and, and as are all the masters. We played with Dave King, who's also a master and it's the same thing. But it's funny when you, or Billy Harder, you just kind of start going, wow, it's, it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to live it and.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 05

  I'm trying to really learn about it more.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  It's important to remember.

• 35:30Speaker 05

  It is.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Well, it's important to recognize when you go off of the rails a little.

• 35:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, and kind of go, wait, I think I might be pursuing a

• 35:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 05

  different agenda.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  I haven't done that in a while.

• 35:41Speaker 05

  Is that right?

• 35:41Speaker 00

  I'm not saying I'm like perfect or something, but.

• 35:43Speaker 05

  No, no, but that's.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  I don't really do stuff unless I'm really.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Feeling it. So actually, actually, when we were trying to come up with a cover to do, I haven't done as many covers in the last 10 or so years because I don't, I don't feel the same when I'm singing them as I did when I was 20. When I was 20, I felt like I could really sing the song. And sometimes I overinterpreted it. But usually I was just so green that I just, ooh, this is a great song. I'm gonna sing it.

• 36:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  And it was really heartfelt. But now that I started writing, I find it harder to put other words in my mouth and make them real, you know? Because I feel like to sing a song, you do have to sort of own it.

• 36:26Speaker 05

  You absolutely.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  You have to sing it like you wrote it.

• 36:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. Do you, a question for you. I'm sorry.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  No, I like it. I'm fine with it.

• 36:33Speaker 05

  Okay, but suppose you run into that, right? Do you, are you of the mind, well, I'm gonna strategize how to move through this? Or is it enough to be like, this ain't it?

• 36:44Speaker 00

  I mean, I'll try a couple of times.

• 36:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  But then it either is it or it's not. I mean, what am I doing where I have to do it?

• 36:50Speaker 05

  It's so true. You don't have to.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  If somebody's, you know, wants me to sing it for a movie, that's different.

• 36:55Speaker 05

  That's different, but you have the, yeah, you can, that's encouraging, you know?

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, why make it happen?

• 37:01Speaker 05

  I fight it.

• 37:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:02Speaker 05

  Covers are wonderful. I keep, I'm, I'm, I'm starting to return to them more.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it must be fun to play melodies. I mean, it's fun to play melodies.

• 37:11Speaker 05

  It's fun to play melodies.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  And when you don't have to like fake the words. Like what if there's an awkward word? Like you don't have to worry about that.

• 37:17Speaker 05

  I don't know how you do it. It's not, I'm not cut out for words. I really am not.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

• 38:27Speaker 06

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this, I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 38:42Speaker 06

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:13Speaker 05

  We were talking about, who wrote this?

• 39:15Speaker 00

  Which one?

• 39:16Speaker 05

  We were talking about "Heartache." Is that a low tune?

• 39:18Speaker 00

  Oh, I love that song.

• 39:20Speaker 05

  Tell me about this. In all fairness, I don't really know much about it.

• 39:23Speaker 00

  I know, I don't really either. I think that the song "Heartache," I think it might be on that solo album he did, "Thanks, I'll Eat It Here," but it's not the same version.

• 39:31Speaker 05

  It's not the same version as the one you shared.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  No, the one I shared with you is some random demo with him and Linda Ronstadt, which I used to have like a bootleg recording of in the early 2000s.

• 39:42Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Or maybe it was, it definitely wasn't on YouTube. It was like a rogue.

• 39:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, floating around.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  File that we had of it and, and I really loved it.

• 39:52Speaker 05

  I loved it. I was, I would love to play with you.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Let's do it. And you know why I love it so much? It's because it's got such a weird key center change.

• 40:01Speaker 05

  Is it?

• 40:02Speaker 00

  I still don't completely understand it, or I haven't analyzed it enough, but it's

• 40:06Speaker 05

  It's fabulous.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  So natural and beautiful, yet.

• 40:09Speaker 05

  I would never think of it.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  Me neither.

• 40:11Speaker 05

  I was in the car, I was in the car listening to this in traffic and I was like. I was like trying to be the good music student. I was like trying to sing the bass and like, like hear where it's moving and I, I was foiled. And then I was like, if a guitar were in my hands, this would make to- it's such guitar language.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is.

• 40:25Speaker 05

  At least with him, you know, he's such a master.

• 40:27Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 40:28Speaker 05

  It's cool though, I'm glad you brought it up.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  Are you, um, is F a crappy key for guitar?

• 40:33Speaker 05

  It's a wonderful, no, they're all, they're all good.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 40:36Speaker 05

  I, I just, um.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  You wanna try it on acoustic?

• 40:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  So I've always loved this song and I've sung it a couple of times and just like, you know, I'm not much of a, I'll sing a song at somebody's apartment, Jesse.

• 40:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Perfect example, like his house, you know, people are always jamming.

• 40:54Speaker 05

  He kinda sets the stage for that.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's fun, but like, I'm not the first to go up and sing a song, but I feel like I've sung this a couple of times at random things because it's just a great song.

• 41:03Speaker 05

  Well, it's also kinda rare. It's like, when I put it on, like, I haven't heard it, uh, much, but I, it, oh, it's just kinda, it's got what you need. I heard it once and I was like, I gotta hear that again.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  It's so pretty, and her harmonies are so, I just love her so much.

• 41:16Speaker 05

  No, will you give me an A? Thank you. Thank you.

• 41:24Speaker 05

  Strings are, oh, good.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  What do you got there?

• 41:28Speaker 05

  This is this calling that I like. We'd, it's, we made this, like a signature guitar years ago and I, I really like it. Very lightweight, so it, um, it's almost like it ages in dog years, so for every year you own it, it's about seven years old.

• 41:57Speaker 05

  What do you think about Emma Hoi? Are you into Emma Hoi?

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Oh, my favorite.

• 42:01Speaker 05

  What you're just playing, that's like the one, the wandering trout, what is it?

• 42:04Speaker 00

  She's my favorite, she just died last year, right? So she's this Ethiopian nun.

• 42:09Speaker 05

  Ethiopian nun, right? That alone is so hip and she lived to be, I believe, 99 or 100, right?

• 42:14Speaker 00

  She was old, yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 05

  And she wrote music, piano, music for, you know, a, a single piano and she played these recordings, I mean, recordings are just, yeah, exactly. Homeless wander.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  A young girl's complaint?

• 42:31Speaker 05

  Yes, right? Famine disaster, 1978.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  The names alone of these songs are so amazing. It's almost like a little cat is just like, like, walking on the keyboard, but like, in the most beautiful way.

• 42:42Speaker 05

  I know, because we were talking before, it's about, you were talking about writing to God. I mean, that was definitely spiritual music.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Very.

• 42:48Speaker 05

  And the recordings themselves are gorgeous documents.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  I know. And it's kind of big now, like, on that Ethiopeak stuff.

• 42:55Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 42:56Speaker 00

  And I actually saw a commercial for VRBO where they clearly were ripping it. And it was, it was a beautiful commercial.

• 43:02Speaker 05

  They got you.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Like, they did a great job, it was beautiful, but it was not her. But it was very much similar.

• 43:09Speaker 05

  The secret's out.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 05

  Well, let's celebrate Emma Hoy. Yeah, she's the best.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  It's so good.

• 43:14Speaker 05

  Okay, well, let's see what we got.

• 43:19Speaker 05

  I'll bring this one up a little bit.

• 43:27Speaker 05

  Can you hear me okay?

• 43:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. So when you play an F, it's just only bar chords, basically, right? Ish, except C and D.

• 43:36Speaker 05

  I guess so, you mean on this arrangement?

• 43:38Speaker 00

  Just in general, like, I don't know.

• 43:41Speaker 05

  If I saw an F,

• 43:44Speaker 05

  I think of it more,

• 43:47Speaker 05

  the less notes, the better. I don't play a lot of bar chords.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Gotcha.

• 43:50Speaker 05

  Because they're hard, you know, they are hard.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  So you play the higher, higher than that, basically?

• 43:55Speaker 05

  I play higher, I play here.

• 43:59Speaker 05

  Are you even a dyad, like?

• 44:00Speaker 00

  You're losing me.

• 44:01Speaker 05

  I know. I know, I'm losing myself.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  We'll see the guitar lesson later.

• 44:05Speaker 05

  But it's true that, uh...

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Playing a straight F, like, is hard.

• 44:10Speaker 05

  Oh, my God. It's, no, it's hard. It's mechanically, mechanically, if you look at even your fretting hand, it's, it's asking a lot.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  It is.

• 44:18Speaker 05

  It's so, um, you just either figure it out, or you don't, but you don't have to.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  My friend, for this Puss in Boots show, she wanted to sing "A Holy Night in the F." I was like, "Cool, I'm gonna ask you to change that." And then I was like, "Wait a second." I can capo it.

• 44:34Speaker 05

  You can, oh, capos are great.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 05

  Capos are the best. I've done some stuff with a capo over the...

• 44:39Speaker 00

  And I played it neat.

• 44:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  It was super easy.

• 44:43Speaker 05

  I think that's the solution. Just don't worry about it.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  I capoed our gig last week. I was super excited about this, but it was a total dork moment.

• 44:52Speaker 05

  What happened?

• 44:53Speaker 00

  I got the key wrong and we started the song and I realized I usually play with the capo.

• 44:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  I could play without the capo, but there was the bridge coming up, which I wasn't sure what was gonna happen. And then I remembered what key I did it in and on a little sly moment, I put the capo on and I started playing it in the new key and I was like,

• 45:11Speaker 05

  Yes! Yeah, score!

• 45:13Speaker 00

  I did it! This is a pretty dork moment.

• 45:16Speaker 05

  Hey, no, that's great. I live for that kind of thing.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  Alright.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Well, I'm here out of love, but I'm feeling no pain. But I know you, heartache, you'll stand in my way. There's no use in wishing, 'cause I ain't satisfied. I'm fit to be a misfit when you're at my side. Heartache, find another place to be. I'm tired of being your best friend.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Look to another for your companion, 'cause when you do, my heart, pain will end.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  Well, there's no way at all Where I'm feeling no pain My body is sickly And my mind is insane I call on you, heartache To come show me how 'Cause I can't get no lower Than the hole I'm in now Heartache, find another place to be

• 47:26Speaker 00

  I'm tired of being your best friend Look to another for your companion And when you tell my pain will end

• 48:41Speaker 00

  Heartache, find another place to be I'm tired of being

• 48:57Speaker 00

  I like that. I did too. I still slowed it down. That was my... It's gotta go where it's gotta go. It's a sweet little tune, right? It is great. It's so... I was just playing, like, playing and thinking about what it must have been like to write that, or that structure where... I wonder if you've thought about it? I don't know. He was a really good guitar player, right? Tremendous, one of the greatest. So, he had that ability. He had that ability, but it's... What he found so clearly is that it's almost like Falling Grace by Swallow or something like... One of these tunes where it cycles, you don't know where things end and where they begin. Yeah. It sounds like it was an accident. It could have been. It's a beautiful one, if so. I know. I love it. And the lyrics are very heartfelt.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. You sound great singing that. Oh, thank you.

• 49:45Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

• 51:28Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  To rising stars like Alex Warren. You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story. It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Ooh, can we try that tune of yours?

• 52:17Speaker 05

  Which one? Do we talk about hymnal?

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Do we talk about "Speak to Me"?

• 52:21Speaker 05

  Oh, "Speak".

• 52:21Speaker 00

  You wanna try that?

• 52:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I know what's happening on it.

• 52:25Speaker 05

  Did you? I should've. Well, of course you know what's happening.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, you might have to...

• 52:30Speaker 05

  Well, let's, uh, let me...

• 52:32Speaker 00

  I think I, I think I get it.

• 52:33Speaker 05

  Yeah. How's it? B-flat? It's right...

• 52:36Speaker 00

  B-flat? That seems like a weird key for guitar.

• 52:40Speaker 05

  It kinda is. I'm rethinking that as we speak. It works in other keys just as well, but...

• 52:45Speaker 00

  Do you ever do other tunings?

• 52:47Speaker 05

  I don't. I don't touch it.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:49Speaker 05

  I'm worried. I'm worried. This is a general notion. No, but I, uh... I know the point is that it reframes the guitar completely. I just feel like I'm working so hard to understand it as it is. I don't wanna pull the rug out just yet.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  Well, it's like you, you always have that up your sleeve if you ever get stuck. You just re, start, start working on it.

• 53:11Speaker 05

  Truly.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 05

  When I moved to New York, I'll tell you this, it was kinda funny. I started going over to Jim Hall's house a lot. Jim Hall was like, "Why?" Did you ever play with him?

• 53:18Speaker 00

  I didn't. So he was one of your...

• 53:20Speaker 05

  Total gods. I mean, total, totally.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  That's so cool. You got to play with him.

• 53:25Speaker 05

  It was wonderful. No, it was like little boy Julian was flipping out. And, but he would, he was so over...

• 53:34Speaker 05

  And he was just over anything that wasn't about innovation. And I'd go to him and I'd talk to him, I'd say, you know, hey Jim, you know, can I ask you a question about playing with, you know, Sonny Rollins in the 60s, or this with whomever, and he would just, he'd say, Julian, it was not a good time, you know, this country was not in a good place. And him being in what could be considered an early integrated band, you know?

• 53:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 05

  Sonny Rollins Quartet, it was, it was, it was just a massive deal, and he just was very clear to say, don't romanticize anything, just anything, but especially that time because it sucked. The music was great, but it sucked. And he was always looking forward, how can we make the world a better place and not romanticize what it was?

• 54:16Speaker 00

  What an interesting reminder.

• 54:18Speaker 05

  Isn't that cool? It's the multivane thing, isn't it?

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 54:22Speaker 05

  So it was, it was a matter of real concern to him that we don't get caught up in that. But, anyway, so I'd go over there with these questions about these iconic records. And he'd say, I've got a better idea, how about, I'll give you my guitar, you give me yours, and I'll detune yours randomly, and you detune mine randomly.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Whoa!

• 54:40Speaker 05

  And it'll play free.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  How fun!

• 54:42Speaker 05

  It was fabulous. And it was terrifying, because here I am sounding like, you know, like I've never played guitar in my life in front of my hero.

• 54:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, but he probably was in the same boat.

• 54:50Speaker 05

  But he was in a similar boat.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  What a cool...

• 54:52Speaker 05

  It was great. So I always keep that in the back of my mind, that it's there for us as a tool.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 05

  But no, as far as playing songs, I stick to standard as much as I can.

• 55:01Speaker 00

  What a great story.

• 55:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's fun.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 55:04Speaker 05

  Well, let's see, well, so this one, we had talked about this, I know I've always played it as kind of a faster thing.

• 55:08Speaker 00

  Play however you want.

• 55:09Speaker 05

  I think it's groovy.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  I'm a slow, slow Jones, so...

• 55:12Speaker 05

  Well, this is gonna work just fine, because I think it's...

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  That's great. You sound so great on that.

• 1:01:25Speaker 00

  I think I kept up mostly.

• 1:01:27Speaker 05

  Are you kidding? It's beautiful.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  That's fun.

• 1:01:30Speaker 05

  It's fun to play with piano guitar.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  It is. It's hard to play in B flat minor.

• 1:01:35Speaker 05

  It is.

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  It's a weird key.

• 1:01:37Speaker 05

  It's a weird...

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  For piano.

• 1:01:38Speaker 05

  I can only imagine.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  And guitar.

• 1:01:40Speaker 05

  And guitar. But it's so satisfying when you get to that E chord. You're kind of... It feels so wrong, but it feels so right.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  So right.

• 1:01:49Speaker 05

  It's so good.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  It's so like getaway car.

• 1:01:51Speaker 05

  I know.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 1:01:54Speaker 05

  That's so hip.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  That was fun.

• 1:01:55Speaker 05

  Thanks for playing that, Nora.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  Thanks for letting me. That was awesome.

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  Can we try hymn?

• 1:02:01Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:02:02Speaker 00

  Okay, I love this. I know it's a weird one to pick, but I thought we could...

• 1:02:05Speaker 05

  I was so hip that you picked it, though. We can do it any way you want.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  I thought I could be the bass, basically. Like, I could take his parts.

• 1:02:13Speaker 05

  Because the bass parts...

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Is that Jorge?

• 1:02:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's Jorge. So if I'm... I play this theme, right? This is, it's like a hymnal, it's like a spiritual tune. So it's kind of call and response, right? So I'll play the thing, and then you play anything in between it. And then what happened? Let me see, let me think about this first.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  I wrote it down.

• 1:02:30Speaker 05

  Can I see what you wrote down?

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is what I wrote down, but it's not in total order. Like, there's some stuff in there that's not there.

• 1:02:36Speaker 05

  That's quite all right, I just want to...

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  My charts are not amazing.

• 1:02:39Speaker 05

  They're highly efficient.

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  They work for me.

• 1:02:42Speaker 05

  That's... I'm similar.

• 1:02:49Speaker 05

  Okay, here we are.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 1:06:30Speaker 05

  That's good. That's great.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  It's kind of Indian-y, like, almost.

• 1:06:35Speaker 05

  I think so.

• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:36Speaker 05

  It lives in that space.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 05

  Oh, it's so nice to play that with you. Wow.

• 1:06:40Speaker 00

  Thanks. I love that one.

• 1:06:42Speaker 05

  The harmonies are great that you're playing. Yeah, because it's all that, it's all that... It's, you know, it's voice leading, the church stuff. You know what I mean?

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  It's churchy, but it's also, like, eastern-y.

• 1:06:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, that's what I... Yeah, I like old church.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  Old church.

• 1:06:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, like organ, pipe organ kind of energy.

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00Speaker 05

  And, uh...

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  It's pretty.

• 1:07:02Speaker 05

  It's just lovely to hear you play it. Thanks for picking that one.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:07:05Speaker 05

  That's so unexpected to me. But it's totally fodder for, really, whatever someone wants to play. So that's good.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel...

• 1:08:19Speaker 06

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this, I believe in this, and I'm gonna push.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 1:08:34Speaker 05

  Song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me, at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents, I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:09:05Speaker 00

  Love it. Did you, you studied sort of eastern music? Did you study at the Ali Akbar?

• 1:09:10Speaker 05

  I did, yeah. I studied tabla and sitar for about a year.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:09:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was wonderful. I was terrible, but I loved it. Oh, it was so fun. And I took one lesson with Khan Saad, with Ali Akbar Khan.

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 1:09:22Speaker 05

  On guitar. Right, I went to his house.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  So he's pretty old.

• 1:09:25Speaker 05

  He was, at the time, he was, I don't remember how old he was. I must have been fifteen or so.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:09:32Speaker 05

  And his son, Alum.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 05

  Who's so wonderful, brilliant, you know, master. He, he kind of arranged it and it was, it was.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 1:09:42Speaker 05

  It was just a one hour lesson with, with his father, but it was.

• 1:09:45Speaker 00

  So cool.

• 1:09:45Speaker 05

  Tremendous. I mean, it was tremendous.

• 1:09:48Speaker 00

  I think his father, I think my dad's guru was his father.

• 1:09:53Speaker 05

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  I think so, and I think they grew, they came together up together. And I think my dad married his sister.

• 1:10:02Speaker 05

  Get out of here.

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  I could be totally wrong about this.

• 1:10:05Speaker 05

  But this is.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  And then they were estranged.

• 1:10:07Speaker 05

  That's as I understood.

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  They were not, they did not stay close. I don't know. But you played tabla, though? That's my, my dream instrument.

• 1:10:17Speaker 05

  Did you ever play it?

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  No, I, I always wondered what I would have played if I had grown up closer with my dad as a kid.

• 1:10:23Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 1:10:23Speaker 00

  Because I love, of course, I love that music. And I think I would have gravitated towards tabla.

• 1:10:29Speaker 05

  Tabla's pretty, pretty cool.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  It's really cool.

• 1:10:32Speaker 05

  I just remember being so out of my league and loving it, you know?

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  It's so hard.

• 1:10:36Speaker 05

  It's so hard and it's so, but it's so, it's so real. Because it's like, it is, these things are hard and they do take.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Speaker 05

  Lifetimes and.

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, and well, and within, I don't know how it was in the school because I know it was Americanized, but was it super traditional where the respect thing was really different from here?

• 1:10:55Speaker 05

  It was, it was, it was serious in that department, but I do think it was different, like you're saying.

• 1:11:01Speaker 00

  It was toned down.

• 1:11:02Speaker 05

  It was toned down. I mean, it was kind of, you know, even the fact that I was allowed to be there and kind of be this transplant as a jazz guitar player, trying to fumble my way through other instruments, was just pretty generous of them.

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's cool. Did you touch his feet? Was that a thing?

• 1:11:16Speaker 05

  I did, yeah, that was a thing.

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:11:18Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And it was, I just remember this lesson with Paul Ekberg, it was, here's how it went. I'll describe it very quickly. I went in, I, you know, touched his feet, sat down, and he said, "Let me see your guitar." And I handed him the guitar. And he began tuning it, and he kept tuning it. And I thought, wow, that's never heard it so in tune, you know, I was, it wasn't the tradition I came from. And he kept tuning it, and I, kid you not, it was, we were probably about 50 minutes into the lesson, so about 10 minutes left, he's still tuning it, trying to get every overtone to just really sing.

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  Wait, he's tuning it the whole time?

• 1:11:55Speaker 05

  The entire lesson was him tuning it, and I'm watching him.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:11:58Speaker 05

  It was fabulous.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  That's so weird.

• 1:12:00Speaker 05

  No, at the end, no, he plays a chord on it, and it's, I've never heard a guitar so in tune in my life.

• 1:12:06Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:12:07Speaker 05

  And, oh, the majesty of it alone was just stunning, because you heard, you heard everything. And then in the remaining 10 minutes, he taught me a ragga scale, and then I went home, and that was it. But it was, it was something to behold and witness.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  That is strange, though.

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  It was, oh, but it was what I needed.

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  It was cool. It worked out.

• 1:12:25Speaker 05

  It worked out great. But it was also, I have to say this too about the guitar, especially, the history of the guitar in a lot of music is that it's very native, right? It's a folkloric instrument all around the world.

• 1:12:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:37Speaker 05

  Right? But there's also another historical perspective that says the guitar has always been an outsider, you know, even for it to be legitimized as a classical instrument, it took a lot. Composers didn't want to write for it, they didn't, you know, Segovia really pushed for that. In jazz, the guitar has always been a little bit... Misunderstood.

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:57Speaker 05

  Not to those who care about it, but.

• 1:12:59Speaker 00

  I know what you mean.

• 1:13:00Speaker 05

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  It's like the outlier a little bit.

• 1:13:01Speaker 05

  It can be.

• 1:13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Speaker 05

  And yet, it's got roots. So this is what we're all in the business of reconciling. How can you forget about that it's a guitar and just hear music? To see Alarcon concept, to see him tune the guitar and put it in, to give it that care.

• 1:13:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Speaker 05

  Was really profound because it was, it showed me that it's worth it.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  It's worth it.

• 1:13:24Speaker 05

  It's worth it. And that's very.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  It was a lesson in how to approach things.

• 1:13:28Speaker 05

  Completely.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 1:13:29Speaker 05

  And that's that, that he made it very legitimate to me in that moment.

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  That's so cool.

• 1:13:34Speaker 05

  Isn't that cool?

• 1:13:35Speaker 00

  That is really cool.

• 1:13:36Speaker 05

  Another beautiful thing of growing up where I grew up was to have access to that.

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Speaker 05

  And you know.

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  What, his instrument was the sarod.

• 1:13:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Speaker 00

  How many strings does that have?

• 1:13:45Speaker 05

  It's a great question.

• 1:13:45Speaker 00

  Is it kind of like a sit down on your lap thing?

• 1:13:48Speaker 05

  Well, you place it in your lap, but it's kind of guitaristic in terms of.

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  It's more guitar-y.

• 1:13:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, use a pick.

• 1:13:52Speaker 00

  Is it more guitar-y than a sitar probably?

• 1:13:54Speaker 05

  More guitar-y. Well, the only difference, though, maybe I should reconsider how I say this. It's got no frets.

• 1:14:00Speaker 00

  Oh, it's slidey.

• 1:14:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it's slidey. So I was more in con with that tradition of guitar.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 1:14:05Speaker 05

  And they're sympathetic strings and it's.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  Oh, which is a pain to tune.

• 1:14:08Speaker 05

  Oh my, that's probably why he said he got to tune these things.

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  I'm not sure how they do it, honestly.

• 1:14:12Speaker 05

  I don't think a boy sounds good when they get it.

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  I took one lesson with my dad once.

• 1:14:17Speaker 05

  Did you really?

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was really sweet because we had reconnected and gotten pretty close after I sort of turned 18. And I was probably 25 maybe and I went, or 26, and I went to India. I'd gone through a breakup and I needed to escape some things.

• 1:14:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32Speaker 00

  And I went there for a few weeks to spend with him. And I brought a little travel guitar.

• 1:14:39Speaker 05

  Get out.

• 1:14:39Speaker 00

  Because it, you know.

• 1:14:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:14:41Speaker 00

  And I don't remember whose idea it was. I would have never probably asked. I probably would have been too shy.

• 1:14:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  But I was too shy. I was like, kind of stubborn at that time. I'm not going to touch your feet.

• 1:14:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:14:56Speaker 00

  You know, I'm your daughter. This is weird. The whole cultural thing was just pretty foreign to me. Because I didn't grow up around it completely.

• 1:15:06Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 1:15:07Speaker 00

  But I think I might have touched them. I can't remember, but it was just such a thing. Of course, it's just a sign of respect.

• 1:15:12Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 1:15:13Speaker 00

  And I went in and he, he was trying to teach me a song. And I was trying to play it on guitar. It was funny. It was like really sweet that we tried, kind of thing. But I think he thought of it too seriously and I thought of it too not seriously, maybe.

• 1:15:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:15:32Speaker 00

  Or like, I just wanted to play. I just wanted to jam, man.

• 1:15:36Speaker 05

  Of course, though.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  But meanwhile, he's Ravi Shankar. So he's like this amazing, insane, brilliant. Also, teacher, was a very prolific teacher his whole life.

• 1:15:48Speaker 05

  That's as I understood it.

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  Which is, I think, the whole tradition of the music.

• 1:15:51Speaker 05

  Absolutely. Well, once you went through that experience with them, was that kind of understood mutually? That that was good and we're gonna kind of keep going on our past together?

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

  I honestly don't remember thinking about it much.

• 1:16:03Speaker 05

  Even better.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  It's more like a reflection thing where I find it funny.

• 1:16:08Speaker 05

  That is so, it's so sweet.

• 1:16:09Speaker 00

  I mean, we had dinner and we watched movies the rest of the week. It was fine.

• 1:16:13Speaker 05

  That's so great.

• 1:16:14Speaker 00

  It wasn't like, yeah.

• 1:16:16Speaker 05

  You weren't pushing, being pushed about.

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  I wasn't pushing and he wasn't pushing. It was a sweet moment, though. I'm glad we had that.

• 1:16:23Speaker 05

  So thanks for sharing that. It's really cool. It's really cool to hear that.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

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• 1:17:14Speaker 02

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• 1:17:32Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  To rising stars like Alex Warren. You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story. It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  Well, Alex, you wanna try one more song?

• 1:18:19Speaker 05

  I would love to. You name it. What do we have?

• 1:18:21Speaker 00

  Well, I have a selfish request for you.

• 1:18:24Speaker 05

  Oh, I know what this is.

• 1:18:25Speaker 00

  So, for some reason, I was listening to your stuff and I was like, "Wait a second, I have this old song that I wrote that I never did anything with and I found it in my voice memos and I sent it to you."

• 1:18:35Speaker 05

  It's, I, I love this and you completely spun my head around because I see it written out and I go, "Oh yeah, I get it," but as music, coming out of a speaker, it's so...

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  It's weird.

• 1:18:47Speaker 05

  It's weird and beautiful and compelling.

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:50Speaker 05

  So I'm glad you brought it to the table.

• 1:18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I actually had a question that relates to this.

• 1:18:53Speaker 05

  Ask me.

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  Because I called, this is an instrumental song and I called it "Preschool Blues" because I think at the time I was applying to preschools for my kid, like literally in New York City.

• 1:19:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  But I was wondering about your songs.

• 1:19:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:19:09Speaker 00

  It's hard to come up with titles.

• 1:19:11Speaker 05

  For instrumentals?

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  For instrumentals.

• 1:19:12Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:13Speaker 00

  But they're really good. They're not contrived.

• 1:19:15Speaker 05

  Thanks for saying that.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  I mean, you generally just seem like you're not contrived, too. I guess it makes sense, but...

• 1:19:20Speaker 05

  Well, it's not a...

• 1:19:21Speaker 00

  Do you have a hard time ever, or do you just pluck what the, like, universe tells you?

• 1:19:24Speaker 05

  Well, I've kept a list for maybe fifteen years of titles. Every time I hear something, I put it on a list. So at this point, there's probably fifteen hundred...

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  That has nothing to do with music?

• 1:19:33Speaker 05

  Nothing to do with music.

• 1:19:34Speaker 00

  Oh, just so that you have them?

• 1:19:36Speaker 05

  Just so I have them.

• 1:19:36Speaker 00

  That's so interesting.

• 1:19:37Speaker 05

  And it could be a turn of phrase. My father used to have them. People say things, like, "Oh, that would be a good title." The trouble that... I'll say this again, all subject to change, but at this moment in time, the danger with titling instrumental songs is the, for me, is often the desire to sum up the emotion.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 05

  You know? And I've increasingly learned it doesn't matter.

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  The emotion will translate.

• 1:20:01Speaker 05

  It's there. The title is almost more of an architectural component, so that you...

• 1:20:05Speaker 00

  That's why it gets contrived, I think.

• 1:20:06Speaker 05

  Of course. You say it's the infinity of the blip and the blop, and then it's like, "Okay, well, sure." But it's not. I don't think it's our duty to really spell it out for anybody. So I increasingly gravitate towards titles that are nonchalant.

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:22Speaker 05

  Because they need to be small enough to mean something and become a part of the equation for the listener.

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  But on the other side, sometimes instrumentals have, like, ridiculous ones, you know?

• 1:20:33Speaker 05

  I've seen a lot of that.

• 1:20:34Speaker 00

  Like, "The pencil in the ceiling," right? Like, stupid, like...

• 1:20:38Speaker 05

  No, "Untitled, you know, thirteen."

• 1:20:39Speaker 00

  "Untitled number seventeen-four."

• 1:20:42Speaker 05

  You have to be real careful.

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  "The Project Zero."

• 1:20:45Speaker 05

  But you know what's funny? I like typography. Like, I like fonts, you know? As I think a lot... I'm not alone, I know. So for me, it's always... Because that's such a dangerous thing, where you can be too carefree about it, a big part of it is, what does it look like written out? And what does it look like in handwriting? What does it look like in typeface? Because that can determine how the back cover's gonna look and how it's gonna look on iTunes or whatever, so...

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  So you're thinking like an artist.

• 1:21:12Speaker 05

  I'm trying to. I will. And it happens to be really fun, and I am very lucky to be... You know, Margaret Glassby is my partner and she's, as far as words and rhythm and cadence goes, she's a tremendous force. And so there are many things I show to her and I'll just say the name of the title and I feel like

• 1:21:31Speaker 00

  She's like, "Nope."

• 1:21:32Speaker 05

  All the energy left the room. I say, "I'll be right back."

• 1:21:35Speaker 00

  That's so cute.

• 1:21:36Speaker 05

  "Go consult the list."

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  That's sweet.

• 1:21:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's kind of nice.

• 1:21:38Speaker 00

  I was wondering how she can stop herself from writing lyrics to all your tunes because they're just so melodic.

• 1:21:44Speaker 05

  She does, she's got her hands full with her own things. But I have to say this about, of the many things I learned from her, just that we've been friends for so long.

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, she told me the story.

• 1:21:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, we go way back. It's great. So, you know, I look up to Margaret deeply and one of the things she's taught me is there were a period, there was such a period in my life where I was looking to songwriters. You know, and I just moved to New York and I was just starting to hang out with Jessie, who we've referenced before, and I was kind of around this crew where people could be in a circle and say, "Well, sing me your latest song." And then it would get to me and I don't sing and I wouldn't know what to play and I thought I needed to play with someone. And I had this kind of, I didn't feel sufficient is my point. And Margaret helped me realize that it's really, it's just not true that with instrumental music, you have a freedom to access emotions in an abstract way that is very liberating.

• 1:22:40Speaker 05

  It's not less than, it's not, it's not like, "Oh, this would be great if only I was saying what I was really talking about." She's helped me see that, you know, this is, this is, it's an ethereal realm for which I'm devoted.

• 1:22:54Speaker 00

  That's a good lesson.

• 1:22:55Speaker 05

  It's a good lesson. So she's never been like, "Your song is great if only it had lyrics and it would really..." You know, she's kind of, she accepts them. She accepts them. She says, "No, that's great." You can, if anything, she's been like, "Do the things that you couldn't do with a singer now." Play with time and emotion and expectation because you don't have to deal with this other stuff.

• 1:23:12Speaker 00

  It's great.

• 1:23:12Speaker 05

  It's a very gracious way of phrasing it.

• 1:23:14Speaker 00

  What a lovely relationship.

• 1:23:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I'm telling you, I learned a lot. I learned a lot from her.

• 1:27:22Speaker 00

  Why couldn't I just write a straight blues?

• 1:27:27Speaker 05

  That's kinda cool, though.

• 1:27:28Speaker 00

  That was cool.

• 1:27:29Speaker 05

  I like the way that, I don't know, we did something. That was cool.

• 1:27:33Speaker 00

  Oh, it was good.

• 1:27:33Speaker 05

  I like your form, because your form...

• 1:27:36Speaker 00

  Well, then I forgot how to play a blues form.

• 1:27:38Speaker 05

  I did too.

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  I literally forgot.

• 1:27:39Speaker 05

  Well, because your form's very clear. Like, what this is, is its own... Thing. I was like, well, maybe we should, we were there.

• 1:27:45Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:27:45Speaker 05

  We were just talking, so they did, I mean, we both know that the blues form is not one thing.

• 1:27:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:27:51Speaker 05

  It's whatever you want it to be at any given time.

• 1:27:55Speaker 00

  But it was funny because like, I forgot how to play a blues form just now completely. And when I was practicing it earlier, I also forgot how to play a blues form. So I was like, maybe it doesn't fit in that.

• 1:28:05Speaker 05

  You know, maybe you're on to something. Maybe it's, what's that one, what's that trouble in mind? Is that that one that's like an eight bar blues? Yeah, blues form is real relative, in my thinking, so.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  It is.

• 1:28:16Speaker 05

  I like what we did. And then when it did go to blues, it was like, yeah, this, you landed on, so I was like, okay, yeah, that's perfect.

• 1:28:21Speaker 00

  No, you followed me when I was lost in the weeds.

• 1:28:23Speaker 05

  No, no, no.

• 1:28:24Speaker 00

  Even though it was your solo. Sorry about that.

• 1:28:28Speaker 05

  Listen, we're together. That's a great tune.

• 1:28:30Speaker 00

  That is fun.

• 1:28:31Speaker 05

  Is that on a record? You got that on?

• 1:28:32Speaker 00

  No, no, it's just on my voice memos.

• 1:28:36Speaker 05

  Nora, that's fun.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  Thanks for doing this. It was awesome.

• 1:28:39Speaker 05

  Thanks for letting me do it with you.

• 1:28:41Speaker 00

  You're the perfect subject.

• 1:28:44Speaker 00

  Thanks so much. This was a blast.

• 1:28:46Speaker 05

  It's really great. Thank you for having me. I hope we get to play again.

• 1:28:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's do more.

• 1:28:50Speaker 05

  It'd be so fun.

• 1:28:51Speaker 00

  Let's play.

• 1:28:51Speaker 05

  Let's play. We could do it. I could see it.

• 1:28:53Speaker 00

  I know we can. And I know we will.

• 1:28:55Speaker 05

  We will.

• 1:28:55Speaker 00

  The line is open.

• 1:28:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, the line is open.

• 1:28:57Speaker 00

  All right.

• 1:28:58Speaker 05

  Thanks, Nora.

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:29:03Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks so much for listening. That was Julian Maj. He's so fun to play with.

• 1:29:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, and he's so curious as a musician.

• 1:29:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, he is. That's the best, that's my favorite kind of musician.

• 1:29:14Speaker 04

  And very calm. He's a very, has a very calming energy.

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I felt zoned out. If you liked the show today and want to know what we played, the first song was a song written by Julian that I added some sneaky lyrics to in the end, called "Day and Age," from the album World's Fair from 2015. The second song we did was called "Heartache," written by Lowell George and Ivan Ulls. I know this song from a YouTube version that was a demo by Lowell George and Linda Ronstadt. It's also on his album, "Thanks, I'll Eat It Here," from 1979. The third song we did was called "Hymnal," from Julian's album, "Speak To Me 2024." And the last song we did was a song of mine that I wrote a long time ago called "Preschool Blues." Special thanks to Julian Lage for joining us today. We'll be back next week with Josh Homme.

• 1:30:02Speaker 00

  Norah Jones is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Norah Jones. Today's episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, edited by Sarah Oda, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Fry, photography by Shirvan Lenez, and produced by me and Sarah Oda. Executive producers, Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Rantog. Marketing lead, Queen Aniki. Thanks so much for listening.

• 1:30:47Speaker 00

  If you love music and great artists' interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Niall Rogers. This new series follows Niall as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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