Nathaniel Rateliff

GRAMMY Award–winning artist Nathaniel Rateliff joins Norah to trace the road that shaped him and reflect on the time it takes to discover who you are as an artist. They explore what it means to sing from the heart and stay grounded. The episode features unforgettable performances and an open, honest conversation. Recorded 4/16/25. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:32Speaker 00

  This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Nathaniel Rateliff.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  Hi, welcome to the show. I'm Norah Jones and this is Sarah Oda.

• 2:00Speaker 05

  Hello.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Hello.

• 2:01Speaker 05

  We have a very awesome episode today. We have Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter and bandleader Nathaniel Rateliff.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Yay.

• 2:11Speaker 05

  And his band is Nathaniel Rateliff and The Night Sweats, which is the best band name ever.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  That's a great band name.

• 2:18Speaker 05

  He's released several solo albums and then released the Night Sweats self-titled debut album in 2015. His latest album came out in 2024 called "South of Here", and alongside a steady run of touring with the band.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  We had so much fun. Every time I hear his music, I stop and I listen and I'm so happy. Like, if I hear it on the radio or something, it just always feels so good.

• 2:41Speaker 05

  I know.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  I was so happy he could do this.

• 2:43Speaker 05

  I know. His songs are like stories.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, and his voice is incredible and it's just, it was really fun.

• 2:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, this one was great. In this episode, you're gonna hear about his sort of unexpected journey to discovering who he is as an artist. You're also gonna hear about the art of doing a cover song, which can be tricky sometimes. And as always, there's beautiful duet performances, and this episode has extra songs in it.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it has a lot more songs than the norm.

• 3:09Speaker 05

  So stay tuned.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  Here it is. Enjoy the episode with Nathaniel Rateliff.

• 3:13Speaker 06

  All right.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  All right, we got this.

• 3:21Speaker 06

  I'll wait till I stop doing the lip drill.

• 3:26Speaker 00

  Yay, music.

• 3:27Speaker 06

  Here we go, all right.

• 3:38Speaker 06

  I hear the sound.

• 3:42Speaker 06

  It's going through my brain.

• 3:48Speaker 06

  I hear talk of people. I feel the falling rain.

• 3:57Speaker 06

  I see a man crying. Cause the whole world has let him down.

• 4:07Speaker 06

  Kids are laughing at funny faces. Of a clown.

• 4:16Speaker 06

  My mind is like a spring in a clock.

• 4:21Speaker 06

  It won't unwind.

• 4:26Speaker 06

  I can't see, I can't think, I can't feel, I'm out of time.

• 4:36Speaker 06

  I'm up and I'm down, tell me where is it going to end?

• 4:45Speaker 06

  You say it starts at the beginning of the end, my friend.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  I hear thunder and I can feel the wind.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  I can see angry faces, the eyes of men.

• 5:58Speaker 06

  And don't forget where kids lay bleeding on the ground.

• 6:08Speaker 06

  And there's no place on this planet where peace can be found.

• 6:17Speaker 06

  So there'll be stabbings and shootings and young men dying all around.

• 6:27Speaker 06

  And it keeps going through my brain, I can still hear the sound.

• 6:37Speaker 06

  I hear talking of people, the whole world is going insane.

• 6:47Speaker 06

  And all that there's left is the falling rain.

• 6:57Speaker 06

  And all that there's left is the falling rain.

• 7:07Speaker 06

  And all that there's left is the falling rain.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  That was awesome.

• 7:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 07

  I liked it.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  What a great tune.

• 7:29Speaker 07

  Such a good, the whole record is good.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  It's so good. I love that record.

• 7:33Speaker 07

  It took me a while to find that one, actually. Was given that at Richard Swift's memorial service.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Really?

• 7:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, people were instructed to like bring a piece of vinyl in exchange. It was somebody else.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. What a beautiful way to do that.

• 7:49Speaker 07

  A lot of people forgot.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 07

  But then a really close friend of Richard's gave me a copy of that. He's like, you know, this is one of Richard's favorite records.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  That's amazing. And you didn't know it yet?

• 7:59Speaker 07

  I didn't know it. I knew Link Ray from like, um, yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  Rumble.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, so.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 07

  Such a killer three chord song.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  It's the best, the best three chord song ever.

• 8:31Speaker 07

  I knew that because I used to like, I got my first little Fender Champ, like a silver face one, like vibro Champ. From my uncle, from Big Ernie, my uncle Ernie. And I would just like play that on, everything on 10.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 8:46Speaker 07

  You know, and then play to Rumble.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  I think that's the best song for a new guitar player to learn.

• 8:52Speaker 07

  Oh, you just feel like you're slaying.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  It just feels like you're doing it.

• 8:56Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  And even that little figure. Is not hard to get.

• 9:01Speaker 07

  I'm like, I'm not gonna attempt it right now.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  You can do it. I know you can.

• 9:04Speaker 07

  I'll be like, yeah, it's like a total shit.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 07

  Wrong key, but yeah. You just got it.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  You just kinda did it.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:16Speaker 07

  But it's also fun to just put like noise cancelling headphones on now and listen to that record.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 07

  And if you have headphones on, you can tell that like the main vocal is just done over a scratch take.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  That's why there's a double.

• 9:28Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 9:29Speaker 07

  The double's a scratch.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  I love the double.

• 9:31Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  That totally makes sense.

• 9:32Speaker 07

  But it doesn't line up. Like, it's really messy. Like, I think the whole record is so cool and vibey and actually sounds rad. But it's just so messy. And I think it's a great example of music doesn't have to, it never has to be perfect. You know, like.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  It's better if it's not.

• 9:49Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well, people haven't, like, I feel like a lot of young people, and I certainly did.

• 9:55Speaker 07

  Like, I had an expectation of what like a recording experience is supposed to be.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 07

  But it really is about like feel and fun. You know, like, if you're having a good time, it's probably gonna be what you want.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  It's about the emotion, capturing the emotion.

• 10:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  And it can be messy.

• 10:13Speaker 07

  But I also feel like there's a way to make your voice very emotive.

• 10:18Speaker 07

  And it's like you're going there

• 10:21Speaker 07

  without going there.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 07

  You know what I mean? Like, you can sound away. Like, you don't have to cry on every take. But those are beautiful moments when they happen. But I certainly had an expectation when I was younger that like everything had to have that kind of feeling. It had to like really mean something. And I think it still gets across the emotion.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Well, if the emotion of the song is in you, you don't have to cut yourself.

• 10:46Speaker 07

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  And bleed on the tape.

• 10:49Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  You know? Yeah, I love that.

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• 13:16Speaker 00

  I was wondering if you wanted to talk about Richard Swift a little.

• 13:18Speaker 07

  I'd love to. I love Richard. I think about him every day. I actually carry like a little traveling afrenda and I have like, I set up a Polaroid of Richard and my father and then like little trinkets and then.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 13:33Speaker 07

  And some of it is a way that like when you're moving all the time, like then there's like, there's a familiar sense, you know?

• 13:41Speaker 00

  It keeps that sense of home when you're traveling.

• 13:44Speaker 07

  And then, yeah, and I just like.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  I like that. I don't do anything like that.

• 13:49Speaker 07

  No? You should just get something.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  I should. I think I would enjoy it. Yeah, the ritual.

• 13:55Speaker 07

  I love that kind of stuff. So, but you know, I love flowers and, you know, at a certain point you can start to ask for things and it's not like a terrible thing to ask for. It took me a long time to.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  Like flowers?

• 14:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, you can ask for flowers in your green room. So I just get.

• 14:09Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 14:10Speaker 07

  I get lilies every day and so then those are all familiar scents that I really enjoy and they're like peaceful. So like, tour can be chaotic and you know, like I feel like it was hard to even ask for my own dressing room for a long time because then I felt like I was trying to like.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  Because you're in a band?

• 14:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 07

  But I'm not trying to like exclude myself or elevate myself to a different place. It's really like there's different things required of me, you know, and like, I even had a realization the other day when I was doing something with the Colorado Symphony and it was like five guys in the band, like me and four of the guys in the band and then two other singers. And I like walked into the green room and everybody was there and there's like four conversations going on and you know, tour managers asking me questions, production managers asking me questions, assistants asking me questions. I was like, and I gotta do a 20 minute vocal warmup and and I was like, I can't, I can't actually be in this room. There's like too much chaos and like I have to find my center, you know?

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 07

  And I used to never really do that. I used to just feel like I was like kind of spinning out a lot, you know?

• 15:18Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 15:19Speaker 07

  And so all those things are like ways to, to find like some sort of peaceful spot than to move outward from there, you know?

• 15:28Speaker 00

  Background noise is a problem, I think.

• 15:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, I can multitask, but I can't have multiple conversations at once.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 07

  You know, like I can dovetail on the stove or do a bunch of things, but like conversation with music and my hearing's a little. Appropriate for my age and the amount of

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 07

  heavy equipment and loud stuff I've been around, so uh, like, you know, it's not like terrible, but it gets too much at once is like sensory overload.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it gets overwhelming. The questions, um, the constant questions is hard, too.

• 16:01Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 07

  Yeah. And sometimes you just wanna be alone. Like, left alone, baby.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  When can I be alone? I don't know. Maybe later today?

• 16:13Speaker 07

  I know, it's one of the things I worry about having kids sometimes.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. No, they won't let you be alone. But it's fun, you know?

• 16:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  They're full of struggles, too, but it's pretty fun. Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 07

  But back to the Richard thing. Richard, like, it was just an interesting period in my life because I'd been like a singer songwriter for years and toured and I was kind of ready to give up, you know, and I had been a gardener. I was doing fine gardening and landscaping and touring at the same time.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 16:45Speaker 07

  But it was nice because I could come home and do a job I really liked. I was good at it and so, and grew up doing a lot of that kind of work. When I was supposed to be in high school, I was a janitor and a groundskeeper for a high school, so, real.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  It was sort of like you went.

• 16:59Speaker 07

  Kind of like Good Will Hunting, but I wasn't like solving any math problems at night. So, but that movie is definitely written about me.

• 17:10Speaker 07

  And I remember I was just wanted to like create something that, like, I always loved R and B and soul and and I just started doing demos in my house and I was on tour with somebody who was friends with Richard. I had met Richard briefly. We crossed paths because it dealt with spirit when I was on tour with them and we were in the UK and he happened to be there and popped in and we hung out in the green room and chatted and and then years, you know, and then it would have been several years later that I was working on these demos just kind of as a way, like a song exploration with really no like they just, you know, sometimes stuff just starts to show up. It just starts to come out of you.

• 17:52Speaker 07

  And so you end up being like a conduit or the vessel. Sorry, that's a very long-winded explanation.

• 18:00Speaker 07

  Seven hour. So I ended up getting connected with Richard again because a friend who was on tour with me gave me his number after I played her a couple of the demos. She was like, you should send this to Richard. I sent it to him and then I just got like a cold call in the middle of the night.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  Middle of the night?

• 18:19Speaker 07

  Well, like late at night, like 10:30, you know? And he was like, hey, it's Richard. I was like, hey, man, how's it going? He's like, oh, good. You know, I was just like, listening. He's pretty cool. What's your process? I was like, I have like one mic and move around the room. He's like, it's pretty much what I do.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  That's cute.

• 18:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  It's like you're in junior high.

• 18:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Talking about.

• 18:44Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, it's like, Connor, what do I do? And I was like, this is not what he does, you know? And then we just started to talk and at the time I had also like, I originally got signed to Round of Records as a singer songwriter and that sort of like, when I went to present, I had like, I don't know, 20 some odd songs for my second record. And I was really excited about those demos and always enjoyed the process of demoing stuff by myself.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  It's hard to beat those, I think, sometimes.

• 19:09Speaker 07

  Yeah, the demoitis is a real thing.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  I mean, I prefer them.

• 19:12Speaker 07

  I do too.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  I usually use them.

• 19:14Speaker 07

  I use them or sometimes I've started, I found a trick that I would just, if I liked the demo so much and we weren't recreating it, I would be like, play the demo and I am going to, we use the demo as like a scratch.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:29Speaker 07

  You know, and then kind of follow the feel and the movement.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Put makeup on it a little.

• 19:32Speaker 07

  Exactly. And then so, you know, I went to like present these demos to Round of Records and they just didn't get it. And so I was, that record never got made through them. I got dropped. And then even my whole record first release was just like kind of, you know, it kind of got shelved.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  You went to the spin cycle of the record business.

• 19:56Speaker 07

  Yeah. And then, and you know, just like hard because I had a band, but I was like signed as a solo artist.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:03Speaker 07

  And then your band's like resentful as well because they're like, I thought we were a band.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  That's a whole other dynamic. Nobody really realizes.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  It's a real thing.

• 20:13Speaker 07

  And, and, and labels aren't really good at like.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  They don't care.

• 20:17Speaker 07

  They're not trying to bring people together.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  No.

• 20:19Speaker 07

  You know, they're a bunch of squares that.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 07

  I don't even know how a lot of people get jobs in the industry. But there are great people in the industry and I've been blessed to work with a lot of them.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  That's good.

• 20:30Speaker 07

  So then I like co-produced and self-released with the help of my management, the next record. And it was just a struggle, you know, and I like, it's like, how long can you play small rooms? And not get anywhere. And it was just like, the travel's hard. At the time I was married and I was raising my daughter. And then Concord came to me, which was funny because they had bought Rounder and then I got dropped.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Then they came back.

• 21:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, after I, so I released one record on my own, I was working on EP and then started the Night Sweat stuff. And I was, I was really reluctant to work with them because, you know, to get dropped from a label is just like heartbreaking when you, you know, it's, it's just really there. And I feel like I was right at the start of the end of artist development.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 07

  You know, where like, they don't, they don't nurture artists anymore. If you can't have a blow up hit, like I feel so much for people that are just like in the van.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 07

  Doing the work, because I did that for so long. And like, most of my career until the past 10 years was that, you know?

• 21:40Speaker 07

  But you, you need time to discover like who you are as a songwriter and as a performer. You know, and I, I feel for the people that go from nothing to stadiums, you know, like.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Well, that's the new thing, right?

• 21:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  The social media, they get enough followers and then all of a sudden they're in a stadium and they've barely been out playing clubs.

• 22:02Speaker 07

  But then it's even hard to like, how you build your team, the people that surround you. Then are you like only surrounded by yes people? Or are you only surrounded by people that are interested in the amount of revenue they can generate from you and.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 07

  And, you know, bolster their own careers and, and their own finances. So.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's tricky.

• 22:23Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I, there's like so many pitfalls to that, you know?

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 07

  But I ended up signing with Concord and Concord also works with Stax Records. And so in the process of making the record with Richard. I was like, I, you know, like, the Stax catalog was a huge influence in the Southern soul sound on that first record. And so it ended up coming out on Stax. And Matt Marshall was my A and R guy there.

• 22:49Speaker 00

  Kind of worked us together and.

• 22:51Speaker 07

  Yeah. And Matt has always been really supportive. That's the other thing is like with, with Concord, they've never been like, uh, we don't like this, go back.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 07

  And go back and work on more. I've just always been like, this is the record. This is what I want to do.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 23:07Speaker 07

  You know, and I don't think people get that a lot, so I feel pretty blessed on that.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I feel lucky in that way, too. It's tricky, people chasing things. That's not how I feel like music should be.

• 23:18Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  It's one thing to be inspired or ambitious, but it's another thing to chase something that isn't inspired, you know, quite.

• 23:28Speaker 07

  I know we were talking about Richard and I just keep telling you, there's far more information than you need.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  No, it was great. It was a good, like, lead up to how it all happened and then, and then you worked with him.

• 23:38Speaker 07

  Then we met, I met Richard and it was like, I went out there alone because I didn't really, The Night Sweats weren't a band, it was just me and the attic.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 07

  Richard and I, like, it was like a kindred spirit immediately.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 07

  Um, and he would even be like, oh, it's like you're my twin, you know? And, and I was like, and we were like, we were partying.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 07

  Like, you know, like, just drinking, like, not, no drugs, weed, well, he's not a drug. Uh, you know, uh, and we just really drank. We really went for it. But that aside, like, our, our ability to work together and his, his sense of melody and his ability in the studio to just, like, crank shit out, because essentially we would, like, get a song done in four hours.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  And you would just both play everything and, yeah.

• 24:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, I, I started off on drums as a kid, so I can play drums, Richard could play drums.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 24:33Speaker 07

  He would play keys, uh, and then. Yeah, just play guitar and bass and then we overdub horns later on. We didn't even have horns on that first record.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  I think that's my favorite way to work.

• 24:45Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 00

  If you have the right chemistry. That's how I work with Leon usually.

• 24:49Speaker 07

  Yeah, cuz you can work so fast.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's just so.

• 24:51Speaker 07

  And then.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  It still sounds organic and sort of off the cuff, even though it's all overdubbed kinda.

• 24:58Speaker 07

  Yeah. Have you done more than one record with Leon?

• 25:01Speaker 00

  I did two records with, I did a Christmas record.

• 25:03Speaker 07

  The most recent one was him, but I.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  I mean, we did have a ban on a few songs and it was amazing, but I just, I think.

• 25:09Speaker 07

  Is that like Tommy and?

• 25:11Speaker 00

  No, I, I, I used my drummer Brian Blade. But, but it's really Leon on drums on more than half of the record cuz the, the demos were fun and they sounded great, so we just didn't end up redoing them.

• 25:24Speaker 07

  I love it.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's, I think it's just such a fun way to work, you know?

• 25:29Speaker 07

  There's good and there's bad things about having a lot of people in the room.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 07

  You know? And I even like.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  It can be magical, but.

• 25:36Speaker 07

  It can be, but sometimes too many cooks in the kitchen just makes for a terrible meal.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:42Speaker 07

  And, and so sometimes the like, the two voices and two ideas.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 07

  That was the other funny thing is like the, the song that Richard first chose, like the first day was like, I felt like the dorkiest song I brought in that was sort of like, he was like, let's do this one.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  That's funny.

• 26:01Speaker 07

  I was like, what?

• 26:02Speaker 00

  It's not what you expected.

• 26:03Speaker 07

  Yeah, you know, but, but now in hindsight, I realized it was like, for the first day of getting comfortable together and getting sounds and.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 07

  And then, you know, like from a producer's perspective, watching somebody else work and then trying to understand that now it makes a lot more sense than it did then.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Well, that's cool.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point. The moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:47Speaker 08

  Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with IBM's Ana Paula Acees about what digital sovereignty actually means in the age of AI.

• 27:57Speaker 10

  AI now moves from somebody operating a system to the technology actually making decisions. So you have to have a much better visibility of what AI is touching, data it is accessing, and where.

• 28:14Speaker 08

  Hear the full conversation wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  What's that song you said, "Get Used to the Night"?

• 28:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  You want to do that?

• 28:22Speaker 07

  I do, I do.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Kind of relates?

• 28:25Speaker 07

  It does. I'm trying to remember, was it four or five?

• 28:30Speaker 00

  This is from the newer album?

• 28:32Speaker 07

  This is from, yeah. And so this actually, I, after, you know, I started working on some songs.

• 28:42Speaker 07

  That like during the second record, how I was doing with Richard, I was actually starting to go through a divorce as well.

• 28:51Speaker 07

  And

• 28:55Speaker 07

  there was some songs that like, I had played for Richard and I was like, this is not for the night sweats. This is like something else. And he was like, whoa. He's like, I like that. He's like, can never be too Nielsen, you know? And so we had plans to make this like solo record after the second one. And he was going through separation as well. And we were both struggling with alcoholism. Like we could disappear together and get hammered, or we would be each other's support systems too, you know?

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 07

  And so

• 29:31Speaker 07

  I ended up making that record without Richard after he passed away. And so I kind of wrote a lot of the songs from that space of like, like, how do we recognize that brokenness that's in us that I feel is like a part of human experience? Without letting it like, take you.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  Drag you back in. Do you think that the part of that cycle with the addiction was writing songs out of it? On a certain part of the circle?

• 30:00Speaker 07

  I think, I think the songs, because in the way I write sometimes, there can be a lot of stream of conscious stuff. And so you're not really aware of what you're talking about until you like, take a step back and like hear what you're saying. And that can be heartbreaking to then see yourself in the lyrics.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 07

  In a way that you can't in your own life, you know? So there's some like lines in here that I feel like reference like the, "I used to stay home and writhe in my bed" is like, just about having delirium tremors, so.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 30:33Speaker 07

  And then even the title and the line, "Get used to the night", that however crass this sounds is like, get used to being dead.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Jeez.

• 30:45Speaker 07

  So, let's do this one.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 30:47Speaker 07

  Sorry, Nora.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 30:50Speaker 07

  All right, here we go.

• 31:05Speaker 06

  I used to get around. You found one way, one to get around and one to get through.

• 31:19Speaker 06

  And I'll feel tonight, like so many lost days. I used to stay on and ride in my bed.

• 31:32Speaker 06

  Wish I could retire. Are you still hard-won? I used to do cartwheels to land on my head.

• 31:45Speaker 06

  I used to know it all my life, can't remember much, man. I used to be a proud fucking fool.

• 31:58Speaker 06

  I just run ahead and I'll catch up, man. There's still so much left for me to do.

• 32:10Speaker 06

  Get used to the night.

• 32:24Speaker 06

  And this ain't your town.

• 32:28Speaker 06

  Going wrong down a one-way. Yeah, I gotta hide myself from the storm. Don't know how long I will.

• 32:41Speaker 06

  You found some way, one to get around and one to get through.

• 32:51Speaker 06

  I used to do it all my life, ain't got the mind now. I just been tired of being used.

• 33:04Speaker 06

  Or you could be saying that I used to have something. I used to be you.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  That's beautiful. That's a beautiful song.

• 34:18Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  It's crazy knowing things about a song. And hearing it, you know.

• 34:28Speaker 07

  Well, it's funny because I feel like, you know, even like the writers I love, like, when I was growing up, you just didn't hear the inside scoop on a Bob Dylan song, or Leonard Cohen, or Townes Van Zant. You know, those are all like, secrets. And now, the way we work is like, everybody wants to know everything.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  And they feel like they're entitled to it.

• 34:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, and I'm happy to share it.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  I think if you're happy to share it, then it's great.

• 34:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, but it's also like, but like, in terms of like, social media, sometimes it feels so forced. Or like, my least favorite thing to do is like, an EPK.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:08Speaker 07

  And they're like, "Tell me what this song is about." I was like, "No."

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Why don't you use your brain?

• 35:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, I was like, "It took me a long time to figure out." I was like, "I have no education. This is hard for me," you know, like.

• 35:22Speaker 07

  But, yeah, I don't know. It's funny.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  I'm not really, I'm not really into sharing what things are about, usually. But it might be because I find some of the things either... Too personal, obviously, but also some things might be not as deep as people might think it is.

• 35:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly, but I also like, I understand, like, there are certain, like, certainly in the past, they had written stuff where I was like, it was stuff I was having a hard time saying in my life.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 07

  Like, you don't want to, like, give that away in your electronic press kit.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 36:01Speaker 07

  You know what I mean? And it's easy, you know. I'm struggling with my marriage and this and that, you know?

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Nino business.

• 36:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know, and also I think that sometimes it's a way to deal with that stuff without having to look at it or say it out loud. I mean, it's like therapy in a way.

• 36:17Speaker 07

  It is.

• 36:18Speaker 00

  Writing songs, you know, you writing it to get out. I remember I wrote a whole batch of songs once and I had no idea what I was writing until a year later.

• 36:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  You know?

• 36:27Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  It just happens.

• 36:29Speaker 07

  What else are we doing? I can't, we're...

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Well, you know, there's this one song of yours that, I mean, I think it's, it just makes me emotional every single time I hear it. And it's the, and it's still all right. I just love this song.

• 36:42Speaker 07

  That was also a song for Richard in the process of making that record.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 07

  I didn't really have that, you know, I didn't have a title, didn't have anything. And we actually went back to National Freedom, his studio, and I went with Patrick Mies, who played drums. And Patrick was the only other person I played music with that I brought to the first session with Richard. And then once Richard figured out that Pac had also do Pro Tools and play drums and other stuff, then he was just like, why don't you go do that, Pat, you know, like, Mies, go do this, so.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 07

  He utilized the, like, Richard's best approach to everything was, was true laziness, honestly. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes like, hmm, that's good.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  That's good.

• 37:23Speaker 07

  But it was really, like, to just go back into National Freedom. You know, Richard burns so much palo santo, like, the place smells a certain way, it sounds a certain way. And like, you know, even when I listen to, like, a Damien Girardot record or other people that Richard had produced. And did in that studio, like, you can hear the sound of the room, you can hear.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  You can hear.

• 37:45Speaker 07

  I hear what the floor sounds.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  It's a character in the record.

• 37:48Speaker 07

  It's very familiar. Yeah, it's a character in its own.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Is it still there?

• 37:52Speaker 07

  It is, yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 37:54Speaker 07

  And it's still being used. I've popped in since a couple of times and there's just like a, there's a spirit in the place for sure, you know?

• 38:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 07

  I don't know if it's Richard's, but it like, maybe it's just all the music that was made there still lives in that room, so.

• 38:07Speaker 00

  Those kinds of places are really special.

• 38:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 07

  So.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  I might cry at this one.

• 38:16Speaker 07

  I actually, I wrote this one morning. This is like a song. I kind of started in a hotel room before Richard's memorial. And I feel like it is like the observation of, yeah, like, humanity, human experience is difficult, but it's always gonna be okay, you know?

• 38:37Speaker 00

  I think that's why it makes me cry, because it's so emotional and so relatable, you know? And simple.

• 38:44Speaker 07

  It is.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Which is the best. That's the best kind of song.

• 38:48Speaker 07

  I love it. It's like a, it's my interpretation of a John Prine song. Just a couple of chords.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  It's all you.

• 38:56Speaker 07

  All right. You ready?

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:16Speaker 07

  It ain't all right, the hardness of my head.

• 39:25Speaker 07

  Now close your eyes, spin around and say, hard times, what you couldn't find, that it ain't the way that you want.

• 39:39Speaker 07

  But it's still all right.

• 39:46Speaker 07

  Late at night, you lay around wondering.

• 39:55Speaker 07

  Now counting all the lines, it ain't so funny now, say, times are hard, you get this far, but it ain't the way that you want.

• 40:10Speaker 06

  I'll be damned if this old man don't start to counting his losses.

• 40:20Speaker 06

  But it's still alright.

• 40:28Speaker 06

  See and learn a lot out there. How to scorch and burn. Gonna have to bury your friends. Then you'll find it gets worse. Standing out all this. With no way to get down. To stop praying for your wings to grow.

• 40:53Speaker 06

  Oh baby, just let go.

• 41:28Speaker 06

  It ain't alright. Keep spinning out ahead.

• 41:37Speaker 06

  On there was cold outside. When I hit the ground saying, "I could sleep here, forget all the fear, maybe it would take time to grow."

• 41:51Speaker 06

  But maybe I don't know.

• 41:58Speaker 06

  Now hey tonight. Think about it.

• 42:07Speaker 06

  Remembering all the times. To point it out saying, "Glass is clear, but all this fear starts to leave in the mark."

• 42:22Speaker 06

  Idle hands, the world it stands from your time in the dark.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  So pretty.

• 43:00Speaker 07

  The no tears, you made it through that.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  I made it through. But that's a beautiful song.

• 43:06Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  It's just, that's just one of those songs.

• 43:09Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  You hear it once and it's just like, whoa, kind of sticks on you.

• 43:14Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 07

  I feel like songs sometimes are just like, they come out of nowhere and they feel like a blessing.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Those are definitely the best ones.

• 43:22Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  My favorite kind of songwriting, when it just happens.

• 43:26Speaker 07

  I know, I love it.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 43:28Speaker 11

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• 43:59Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 44:54Speaker 08

  I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with Dr. Laura Jayhai of Cleveland Clinic about how advanced computing is helping shorten the path from medical discovery to treatment.

• 45:07Speaker 09

  The moment that there is a compound that someone in a lab thinks it would be effective to treat a certain disease, it takes about 10 to 13 years from that moment to when that drug is on a shelf for a patient. A big part of that gap could be computationally solved. Better simulation of compounds, designing drug trials that are more efficient, that would finish faster. That was the motivation to bring computational tools and technology closer to biomedical researchers.

• 45:41Speaker 08

  Learn more about how Cleveland Clinic and IBM are using AI and quantum computing to revolutionize biomedical research at ibm.com/smarttalks.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  When did you start writing songs? Were you little bitty?

• 45:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, I would have been a teenager.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 07

  I first started playing drums. I got my first drum kit when I was seven.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Oh, cool.

• 46:06Speaker 07

  My mom and dad played music in church in like sort of a Christian, non-denominational kind of thing that was like kind of radical too, you know, in terms of like. Yeah, and my dad, like in the 70s, was prayed for and healed of cancer, rickettsinoma and pancreatitis.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 46:30Speaker 07

  And so we kind of went from church to church. And my dad would give his testimony. And my mom and him also wrote religious songs together. But also, like, you know, my mom was like a big James Taylor, Jim Croce, Gordon Lightfoot. And that was kind of like what was in the house a lot. My dad played harmonica and sang harmony.

• 46:50Speaker 00

  And what did she play?

• 46:51Speaker 07

  She played 12 strings.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 46:54Speaker 07

  You know. Tall string guitar was always her instrument of choice.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  Well, that's a hard choice to me.

• 47:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, but you know, I remember like, yeah, when my uncle got her her first like Martin. And it's crazy because my parents are so young, like I remember my mom turning 29.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 47:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's crazy to be kids, having kids. But so we, you know, we spent a lot of time in church and singing.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  So did they get you a drum kit so you could complete the band?

• 47:25Speaker 07

  I think I just wanted to play drums.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  You wanted to play, okay.

• 47:28Speaker 07

  And then when I was probably 11 or 12, I got interested in guitar. But then it really took me a while to to like really find my way around it. I think like my dad passed away when I was about 13 and that's when I kind of got into playing guitar. And my mom taught me a couple of chords and then immediately I just wouldn't like make up songs.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  But that's that's great.

• 47:55Speaker 07

  But I was also like, like in my younger years, like they would make me sing harmony in church and I I was like so afraid of singing.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Really?

• 48:03Speaker 07

  Yeah, I just I, yeah, I was very not confident, very shy about it. Yeah, just like a scared little chubby kid, you know.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Were you an only child?

• 48:14Speaker 07

  I have an older sister who's two years older and then I have a a half brother that is 20 years younger than me.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  Okay, got it.

• 48:23Speaker 07

  But, yeah, so my sister was bossy and trying to tell me what to do.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  That's probably why you're self-conscious.

• 48:30Speaker 07

  Uh huh, I know. But then I was also like, you know, I I would hum and didn't know people could hear it. So I was definitely put in special classes at one point because they thought I was a special needs kid. And I probably was, but luckily it was before the era of medication and I missed out on all that free speed, you know.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh my god.

• 48:54Speaker 07

  Sorry.

• 48:59Speaker 07

  Which I could only imagine would have really messed me up, but.

• 49:03Speaker 00

  That's a whole other trajectory.

• 49:06Speaker 07

  But yeah, I don't, yeah, so like guitar.

• 49:10Speaker 07

  It was just that I never really wanted to be a songwriter. I like

• 49:13Speaker 00

  But yeah, you just wrote, right?

• 49:15Speaker 07

  Loved Hendrix and Greg Allman and And yeah, I just kinda wrote like some songs would be like making fun of my sister. Yeah, just anything, you know?

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 07

  Like, some of it would be goofy and then it became like love songs pretty quick because I did not know how to like Yeah, I was pretty lonely and, and, and never really knew if people liked me or not. So I would just be like, there's no way that's ever gonna happen.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  I just wanna hug you.

• 49:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, and then it'd be like

• 49:41Speaker 00

  And you'd write a song about it. But isn't that kinda what all songs?

• 49:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, and it started that way and I'm kinda still the same, really, yeah. Yeah, it's like more intense though, yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. Wow, that's really

• 49:52Speaker 07

  Is this all okay or does it all seem like too, because I'm not really depressed. I just hope it doesn't seem like too much of a downer, you know?

• 49:59Speaker 00

  No, it's real, I think it's really special when people share. I think what you're sharing is really pretty deep.

• 50:04Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  And I, I'm not depressed by hearing it at all. And I, I thank you for sharing it all because I think, you know, if you feel comfortable sharing, that's the real stuff. That's what people can relate to is the real thing. And um, I think it's very helpful. It's helpful for me right now.

• 50:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 07

  Good, good.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 50:32Speaker 07

  We still got two more.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, do you wanna?

• 50:34Speaker 07

  Do you wanna do Mavis and South of Here or how do you feel?

• 50:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love those.

• 50:38Speaker 07

  Okay. Let's do Mavis. We'll end with South of Here, I think.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love this song.

• 50:42Speaker 07

  So, you know, we both are friends with Mavis.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  I think the last time I saw you

• 50:46Speaker 07

  Was with Mavis's birthday.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  Was for Mavis's birthday.

• 50:49Speaker 07

  Um, since then, I've even like, we, Mavis and I have like our friendship has grown, you know, and it's been like years of like every time I see her, uh, you know, and she calls me Montana, which I've learned means motherfucker. Did you know that?

• 51:05Speaker 00

  No, I did not.

• 51:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, Spencer, Spencer Tweedy told me that. He was just like, oh, that means motherfucker. And he's like, they weren't, you know, like Staples weren't allowed to curse, so

• 51:15Speaker 00

  Oh, so they

• 51:15Speaker 07

  So she's kinda like, man, you're a motherfucker. Is like her being like, oh, Montana.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  So cute.

• 51:22Speaker 07

  You know, and, and I just, I like, I cherish every moment that I get with her. And, and I just, I honestly just like, I feel like, that makes me cry.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  I know, she's the best.

• 51:35Speaker 07

  Like, I feel like people should have so much reverence for her, you know?

• 51:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 07

  And I just like, anytime I'm around her, I want like, her to be uplifted to like, the beauty. And like, I just want people to see that because the amount of influence that she's had. And like, I know HBO did a documentary on her, but it like, it just, it doesn't tell the story that you get from Mavis when she's telling you stories.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  When she's telling you stories, yeah.

• 52:02Speaker 07

  And I was like, wow, I wish there was like, I could hear more of that and, and the beauty in that, and like, just how much her and her family has had an impact on modern music, you know?

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 07

  Sorry, I got, get your lotion.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Do you have any tissues?

• 52:17Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  I don't have any.

• 52:17Speaker 07

  I'm an old man.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  You got a hanky?

• 52:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Man, that's amazing.

• 52:22Speaker 07

  You, you know, I thought it was gross, my dad always had one, but it's really convenient.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's great.

• 52:28Speaker 07

  Sorry, I got all, yeah.

• 52:31Speaker 00

  But.

• 52:32Speaker 07

  All right.

• 53:20Speaker 06

  And you relax

• 53:25Speaker 06

  Knowing the way I do

• 53:30Speaker 06

  And I do it for you

• 53:36Speaker 06

  And all that I've seen through

• 53:42Speaker 06

  I do it for you

• 53:50Speaker 06

  Oh yeah

• 54:22Speaker 06

  In other times

• 54:25Speaker 06

  Said your feet would move so fast you couldn't see

• 54:34Speaker 06

  And gone are the days When you could start here to know running

• 54:46Speaker 06

  And all the lights

• 54:50Speaker 06

  And all the lights you said they'd give you now

• 54:56Speaker 06

  I recall a time You were mine And all the time you'd bear your teeth Was always just a smile to me

• 56:59Speaker 06

  I can remember how to end it the right way, so that's the end.

• 57:02Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 57:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, cuz there's all the time you begged your tea. Yeah, oh yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Oh, it goes.

• 57:08Speaker 06

  I recall a time you were mine.

• 57:15Speaker 06

  All the time you begged your tea was always just a smile to me.

• 57:25Speaker 06

  That works.

• 57:30Speaker 07

  We also, you know, I feel like that song like just, I think I'd call it Mavis because it kind of like made me feel like going to church, you know, with all the vocals. And when I first toured that record, it was like a solo record with a 10-piece band.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 57:47Speaker 07

  But we didn't, it was a bummer. We only got to do that record because it came out on February 14th of 2020.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:54Speaker 07

  We played 10 shows. And then we actually got to New York and we were already starting to get like, you know, messages from people on social media, like, I can't believe you guys, like, I can't come, like, this doesn't feel safe.

• 58:06Speaker 00

  We, it was like-

• 58:06Speaker 07

  But nobody knew what was happening, you know?

• 58:08Speaker 00

  Nobody really knew, yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 07

  Yeah, it was just such, you know, like, you pour your heart into something and it means so much. And I know this happens all the time. And it happened to a lot of people who put out records at the same time.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:20Speaker 07

  But luckily, I feel like those records became the soundtrack to their pandemic, you know?

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Well, especially that record, it had such an intimate-

• 58:29Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  -feel, you know?

• 58:32Speaker 07

  I look forward to making another record like that.

• 58:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:35Speaker 07

  And I don't know if that's what I'll do next or, you know.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Follow the, follow whatever path that you get pulled on. Take it as it comes.

• 58:43Speaker 07

  I do, you know, I feel like for my, you know, I've been really fortunate in my career and then I've always just kind of like did what felt best, you know? And there's been a couple of detours where I feel like I just didn't know any better. That reassures that like you should have just stuck to your gut, that like your initial feeling is generally the one to go with. Like, your initial gut instinct is like, if you feel that, don't question that. And I like want younger artists to know that.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:13Speaker 07

  Just be like, if you feel something, like, don't be misled by what someone's trying to tell you how your career could go because there's no guarantee of any of that.

• 59:24Speaker 00

  It's true. You don't want to do anything you regret.

• 59:26Speaker 07

  Exactly. You don't like-

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Even if it's just a bad song.

• 59:30Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Especially if it's a bad song.

• 59:32Speaker 07

  But I've certainly throughout my career, like, earlier for sure, like, songs that like, you know, management label would be like, oh, this song could be radio. I was like, I don't want to push that. And I probably shot myself in the foot.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 07

  You know, but I think it would have been like-

• 59:46Speaker 00

  Or not, yeah.

• 59:47Speaker 07

  -pantering to a trend at the time. And yeah, it might have elevated my career too, but I feel like it's still just been like a slow-

• 59:56Speaker 07

  Um, incline, yeah, not, I haven't got to the decline, you know, I don't feel like-

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  I think you're doing good.

• 1:00:02Speaker 07

  We haven't plateaued yet, which is kind of amazing. It's been ten years of the Night Sweats. This August will be ten years.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  And you just played the Garden?

• 1:00:08Speaker 07

  We just played the Garden.

• 1:00:09Speaker 00

  Heck, yeah.

• 1:00:10Speaker 07

  And it was like, you know-

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  How was that?

• 1:00:12Speaker 07

  It was, oh, I mean, it was my mom's first time to New York.

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  Aww.

• 1:00:16Speaker 07

  It was, I mean, it's Garden. It's like the most famous arena in the world, you know, like-

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  It's pretty fun.

• 1:00:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, it was cool, you know, and we'd just done Fallon and honestly Jimmy like helped launch our career and in such a way I don't think anybody knew was gonna happen. I certainly was like sitting in meetings after that where people are like, well, TV doesn't sell records, but-

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  But it is-

• 1:00:40Speaker 07

  That performance did and I think, you know, like he had us on and, um, you know, I feel like we'd tried to do Late Night earlier on in my career and other than Jules Holland hadn't had like any, any, no break, nothing in the States. And so Jimmy had us on because he just loved the song, SOB and, um, and that was really like in the process of Richard, that was like a throwaway.

• 1:01:03Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:04Speaker 07

  And Richard like, it was the last song we did when we, when we worked together for the first record. He was like, okay, so, label loves the song. I was like, uh-huh. Management loves the song. I was like, yeah. He's like, when you play it for people, they freak out. I was like, yeah. He's like, okay, well, we should probably do it. It's just funny what, what like people latch on to, you know, and then I struggled with for a long time. It was like, or is, is my legacy gonna be this song, you know? You know, and but at some point it doesn't really matter because it's like giving me the ability to do everything else that I want to do.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Speaker 07

  And I'm still able to create music and write from a place of-

• 1:01:50Speaker 07

  Honesty.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 12

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• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

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• 1:03:16Speaker 08

  Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. Imagine your business depends on a system you didn't build and don't fully control. For years, it works perfectly. It's fast, reliable, affordable. So over time, more and more of your operations rely on it. Then one day, the terms change. What once felt flexible now feels difficult to leave. Moving to another provider or bringing those capabilities back under your own control could take years, cost millions, and disrupt the business in the process. That's the challenge of digital sovereignty. Businesses today rely on all sorts of third-party

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  systems: cloud platforms, data pipelines, AI models, software tools. Most days, these systems operate quietly in the background. But when something changes, like costs go up or rules shift, organizations are forced to confront how much control and flexibility they actually have. So to understand the challenge up close, I traveled to Paris to speak with IBM's Ana Paula Assis and Axe's CIO, Giovanni Doniello, two people who think about these questions every day. Hear the full conversation at ibm.com/smarttalks or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:04:42Speaker 06

  All right, should we do this?

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Well, you want to take us out on a song? Let's, um...

• 1:04:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  So this is "South of Here"

• 1:04:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  from your newer record.

• 1:04:50Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  I like this one.

• 1:05:03Speaker 06

  Okay, right on. Ready? One, two, three, four.

• 1:05:18Speaker 06

  In the corners where I've been, as I wandered up the road, see 'em lost but not abandoned. Well, it's hard for one to know. You just find the wind and flow. If I can't take it no more, and I would have to move away. Maybe south of here they let us be.

• 1:05:59Speaker 06

  And I would have to just go on and maybe go back home, remember who I was.

• 1:06:21Speaker 06

  In the corner that I've been in Since I've found no other way But it only one left standing When everyone else is so

• 1:06:43Speaker 06

  Well you can hate The world that you love

• 1:06:50Speaker 06

  And if it breaks Well how do you know? Or do I hate? And the balance And I would have to move away Maybe something here that let us be

• 1:07:13Speaker 06

  And I would have to just move on Or maybe go back home and remember who I was I wake and roll my head

• 1:07:31Speaker 06

  Where have I been?

• 1:07:38Speaker 06

  Where have I been?

• 1:07:44Speaker 06

  Where have I been?

• 1:07:51Speaker 06

  Where have I been?

• 1:07:58Speaker 06

  Maybe something here that let us be

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  That was fun.

• 1:08:11Speaker 07

  I loved it.

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this. It's been so fun. We never really get to play together.

• 1:08:18Speaker 07

  I know. I like it.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  Just in a chorus on a birthday somewhere.

• 1:08:21Speaker 07

  I know.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was really special.

• 1:08:23Speaker 07

  It was the first time I've actually been playing with you and singing with you in this way, so it's really nice.

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  Thanks for doing it.

• 1:08:28Speaker 07

  Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  I hope to see you again soon. Now we did it.

• 1:08:32Speaker 07

  We did it.

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  Now we can just be friends now.

• 1:08:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's it.

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  Thanks for listening. This episode was super fun for us, and I wanted to tell you about the songs we played. This time, we started with a cover, and the first song we did was the great Link Ray song from his self-titled album, which was released in 1971. The song is called "Fallin' Rain," one of my faves. The second song we played was "Get Used to the Night" by Nathaniel Rateliff and The Night Sweats from his album "South of Here," which was released in 2024. The third song we did was "And It's Still Alright," such a classic. Love this song. Nathaniel Rateliff from the album "And It's Still Alright," 2020 that was released. The fourth song we played was called "Mavis," also from that same album, "And It's Still

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  Alright," released in 2020. The fifth song we played, wow, we did a lot of songs, called "South of Here" by Nathaniel Rateliff and The Night Sweats, album "South of Here," released 2024. Special thanks to Nathaniel Rateliff for joining us today, and we'll be back next week with Bridget Everett. Norah Jones is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Norah Jones. Visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. This episode was recorded by Matt Maronelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Frye, photography by Shirvin Lenez, produced

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda, executive producers Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Rintog, marketing lead Queen Anaki. Toodles.

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