My Sister the Rockefeller [from Very Special Episodes]

Wherever Sioux singer D. Z. Ironwing performed in New York, the same woman was waiting afterward to say she loved his voice. Seven years later, his phone rang in a freezing South Dakota trailer. It was her — the first of countless calls that began an unlikely bond with one of America’s richest families. Listen to Dana on Very Special Episodes https://link.podtrac.com/dz7185v4 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  GLP-1s are changing weight loss.

• 0:06Speaker 02

  My sister had amazing.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  The ideal treatment is.

• 0:09Dana Schwartz?

  Seems like everyone's a GLP-1 expert these days. But when it comes to your health, it pays to listen to someone who actually is. Orderly Meds makes it easy to get started with personalized support along the way. And with your first month's order, we're giving you the second month free. Visit orderlymeds.com. Bringing orders to the chaos of GLP-1s.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Individual results may vary. Eligibility and prescription required, not medical advice. Visit orderlymeds.com for details. Compound and medications are not FDA approved.

• 0:40Dana Schwartz?

  It's the 1980s. DZ Ironwing is walking the sidewalks of New York City, a long way from home.

• 0:51Speaker 03

  I grew on the Yonkers Sioux Indian Reservation.

• 0:54Dana Schwartz?

  DZ is from a small Indian reservation in South Dakota. Population 6,500. Where he's from, there are no big skyscrapers, just big skies. His ancestors fought at Little Bighorn, survived the massacre at Wounded Knee. So even in New York, DZ tries to remember his roots. He attends powwows, sits in sweat lodges, prays with a peace pipe. Most important of all, he sings.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  All the songs I sing, the, what we call the powwow songs, or the ceremonial songs.

• 1:43Dana Schwartz?

  DZ has been singing traditional Sioux songs for decades. Word gets around, he's good. He starts getting invites left and right, including a special event at one of the largest cathedrals in the world.

• 2:01Speaker 03

  I got asked to sing at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. It's the largest in New York City. They called it a Native American night or something. It was a Thanksgiving Day weekend.

• 2:12Dana Schwartz?

  At the service, DZ takes his drum and closes his eyes. His voice soars through the candlelit air, dances off stone walls. The audience sits, rapt in silence.

• 2:34Dana Schwartz?

  When the service ends, a woman approaches and takes his hand. She introduces herself as Anne.

• 2:42Speaker 03

  She said, I love your voice. I love your singing.

• 2:44Dana Schwartz?

  DZ thanks her, packs up his drum and leaves for home.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  I mean, at that time, I really became, who is who?

• 2:55Dana Schwartz?

  Days later, DZ is singing again, this time at the United Nations for the ambassador of Chile. And when his song ends, a woman emerges from the crowd, the same woman, Anne.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  She was there after I got done singing. She walked up and she just said the same thing. I enjoy your music. I enjoy your voice.

• 3:16Dana Schwartz?

  Coincidence, he figures. But then it happens again and again.

• 3:23Speaker 03

  I sang at three or four bolder places in town. And every place I sang when I got done singing, then she was always there. And she'd shake my hand again and say, I love your voice.

• 3:41Dana Schwartz?

  Fast forward seven years. DZ is back on the reservation in South Dakota, living in a trailer. It's winter. A bitter cold has fallen over the Great Plains. DZ can see his breath plume from inside.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  It was about 35 below out and we didn't have no cooling. So we were sitting in the, in the kitchen playing cards, but we all had our winter coats on.

• 4:09Dana Schwartz?

  There's no heat. All the stores are closed for the weekend. So DZ and his family bundle up and distract themselves with a game of cards.

• 4:24Dana Schwartz?

  The phone rings.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  And then she said, who is this? She's called, who's this? Anne.

• 4:29Dana Schwartz?

  DZ hesitates. He doesn't know anybody named Anne.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  So I said, Anne who? She said, don't you remember me?

• 4:39Dana Schwartz?

  And then a pause.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  She's Ann Rockefeller.

• 4:48Dana Schwartz?

  Welcome to Very Special Episodes, an iHeart's original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz, and this is Phone Pals.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  Welcome back to Very Special Episodes. My name is Jason English. I'm joined, as always, by Dana Schwartz.

• 5:07Dana Schwartz?

  Hey, hey.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  Zaren Burnett. Yo. Guys, there used to be a, I think it was a Tumblr page. It was called Awesome People Hanging Out Together, where you just get stories of unexpected pairs of people like John Travolta and Princess Diana, or Dr. Ruth and Shaquille O'Neal. And this story reminds me of that. Two people who under no circumstances would you think had anything in common or, or any interactions. And in fact, they talked several thousand times over many years.

• 5:39Dana Schwartz?

  I love it.

• 5:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. This one, the disparate aspects of America, they get braided together in such a beautiful way.

• 5:45Dana Schwartz?

  I also just love when humans from very different places can just show that people can be friends because people aren't that different after all. It just takes empathy and listening. And you know what it takes? And I thought that this was a, I mean, we'll get into this, but effort. I think a lot of times in this era where we feel like we're catching up with friends, just because we follow them on social media or see what they're up to on Instagram. I find this episode, without spoiling anything, an excellent reminder that real friendship requires effort.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Hmm, beautifully said.

• 6:23Dana Schwartz?

  Ironwing got that call from Ann Rockefeller and felt a little confused. This woman was a stranger. They had chatted once or twice, seven years ago. Most surprising part, the lady's name, Ann Rockefeller. You know, like the Rockefellers. She was an heiress, scion of an American dynasty. Her dad, Nelson, had been governor of New York and the 41st vice president of the United States. Her family built Rockefeller Center.

• 7:04Dana Schwartz?

  Oh, and her great-grandpa, John D. Rockefeller, the founder of Standard Oil, history's first billionaire. This wasn't just some random caller. She was living American history. And she was randomly calling DZ just to say, hi? Seven years after meeting? She asked how he was doing, if he was still singing. How was his health? His wife?

• 7:36Speaker 03

  And when we got done talking, she said, anytime you're gonna call me, say hi or whatever, just call. She gave me her number.

• 7:44Dana Schwartz?

  DZ wrote the number down and hung up. Outside, the Dakota winds howled. His family turned and asked, who was that? He didn't know where to begin. DZ never really needed Anne's number because she would call again, again, and again.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  She would call at like 8:00 and 9:00 o'clock at night, you know? Would visit for about an hour.

• 8:17Dana Schwartz?

  Night after night, an heiress in a New York mansion would call a man living in a freezing trailer on a South Dakota reservation just to chat about life. It was frankly innocent. She asked about his family, life on the reservation, when he'd be singing next. Months passed, and each evening, sure enough, the phone rang. The talks stretched long past sunset. Anne sharing stories from her life, DZ talking about the world he'd grown up in.

• 8:57Dana Schwartz?

  DZ was born and raised on the reservation. He had 10 brothers and six sisters. Home life was crowded, chaotic, and too often tragic. On DZ's fifth birthday, June 4th, 1952, his mother died.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  I remember being at her wake and my brother and I were laying on the floor in front of her, where her body is. So I didn't really get to know my mother.

• 9:30Dana Schwartz?

  A short time later, DZ was sent to Marty, South Dakota, to an Indian boarding school. He was young, but he knew these schools had a reputation. They weren't built just for learning. They were built for forgetting. They were a relic of the Civilization Fund Act, a 19th century law aimed at exterminating Native American culture through so-called forced assimilation. Captain Richard Pratt, one of the pioneers of the boarding school movement, said the goal was to, quote, "kill the Indian and save the man."

• 10:15Dana Schwartz?

  I believe in immersing the Indian in our civilization and when When we get them under, holding them there until they are thoroughly soaked. Hundreds of thousands of kids were forced to drop their tribal names, stop practicing their religions, cut their hair, toss away their native clothing. They were forced to adopt Christianity, and above all, they were forbidden from speaking their native language.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  When my uncles and my dad and them were all in school, and they used to get beat by the nuns and the priests whenever they spoke their language.

• 10:56Dana Schwartz?

  The beatings worked. DZ's dad didn't want his kids to suffer like that, so he refused to teach them their language. Instead, he taught them another skill, one that allowed DZ to literally punch back: boxing.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  I never did forget that. He used to always say, "You're gonna need to know this. You're gonna need to learn this in order to survive where you're going."

• 11:27Dana Schwartz?

  On the phone with Ann, he'd describe how he became a master of right hooks and uppercuts, and how they came in handy. One day at school, a kid waved him down.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  He stopped. He said, "There's gonna be a fight." I said, "Who's fighting?" And there he said, "You are."

• 11:45Dana Schwartz?

  A bully had thrown down the gauntlet. DZ was just a little guy, but he wasn't afraid of bullies. A ring of kids quickly circled around. The bully put up his fists, but DZ couldn't. He had a bunch of textbooks tucked under his arm.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  I'd walk right up to him, and I'd raise my books and I'd drop them, let them fall to the floor, but I would watch his eyes. And his eyes would be following my books to the floor.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Soon as I hit the floor, then I hit him.

• 12:19Dana Schwartz?

  The bully crumpled like a paper bag. A few more fights, a few more knockouts, and DZ got a reputation. Little guy, big fist. Still in high school, he started giving lessons. Before long, he was playing basketball, football, baseball, softball. By his senior year, it looked like the boarding school had done the job. DZ spoke English. He played American sports. He was even punching out fellow Native kids. By all appearances, they had, quote, "Killed the Indian."

• 12:59Dana Schwartz?

  Until one day, while playing in a softball tournament, DZ heard something in the distance.

• 13:08Dana Schwartz?

  It was coming from the old Sioux Powwow grounds. For decades, Powwows had been illegal. Now they were returning.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  I'd run across the street and go over to the Powwow. And I'd just stand by the fence, and I'd just listen. I'd just watch the singers.

• 13:27Dana Schwartz?

  For decades, Powwows had been illegal. Now they were returning. The drums shook his chest. The voices made him sway. Something sparked. He felt a calling.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  And I used to always say to myself, "I'm gonna do this. One of these days, I'm gonna do this when I'm done playing ball."

• 13:53Speaker 05

  GLP-1s are changing weight loss.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  My sister had amazing.

• 13:56Speaker 05

  The ideal treatment is.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Seems like everyone's a GLP-1 expert these days, but when it comes to your health, it pays to listen to someone who actually is. Like OrderlyMeds.com, with 50% off your first two orders and personalized support along the way. We're making it easier to get started. Visit OrderlyMeds.com. Bringing orders to the chaos of GLP-1s. Individual results may vary. Eligibility and prescription required. Not medical advice. Visit OrderlyMeds.com for details. Compound and medications are not FDA approved.

• 14:27Dana Schwartz?

  History is full of unexpected pen pals. President Ronald Reagan exchanged hundreds of letters with a six-year-old boy named Rudy Hines. The composer Tchaikovsky relied on his pen pal, a Russian businesswoman, for income. When Tupac was in jail, he shared letters with, get this, Tony Dana. Fast forward to the 90s, DZ Ironwing and Ann Rockefeller had added themselves to the list, though "pen pal" might not be the right word.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  I called it a phone pal.

• 15:05Dana Schwartz?

  Phone pals.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  I'd be watching TV or whatever, or visiting with my wife or something, and like I said, it'd be nine o'clock or 12 at night, and the phone would ring, and it would be Ann.

• 15:16Dana Schwartz?

  For most people, a random call from an heiress would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. But for DZ, it was a once-every-few-days sort of thing.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Like, three or four times a week, I would call her, or she would call me.

• 15:33Dana Schwartz?

  Often, the conversation turned to what it was like living as an Indigenous person in America.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  She'd say something like, "Anything new going on in the reservation?"

• 15:46Dana Schwartz?

  Sometimes, DZ's answers were hard to hear.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  So everybody else is in poverty, living in poverty. And then you have somebody stabbing this person, somebody shooting at this person. I mean, there's nothing to do. It's just a good show. Oh, she didn't like it, but she's just... No matter how much money she had, she couldn't help everybody, you know?

• 16:13Dana Schwartz?

  There were times Ann cried, because what DZ was describing wasn't just cyclical poverty. It was the legacy of generations of government policy.

• 16:27Dana Schwartz?

  DZ grew up at a time when the American legal system denied Native Americans the basic rights many of us take for granted. He told Ann that, as a kid, he could literally see the discrimination on the ball field.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  Being a young dog, the first time, I start learning about prejudice. The white parents would be hollering, "Strike him out. He's just a blank little ass Indian."

• 16:56Dana Schwartz?

  DZ and his teammates responded by going 23-0.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Back in the day, the prejudices were pretty bad. It's like they were always intimidated by the white man, you know?

• 17:11Dana Schwartz?

  As he got older, he became suspicious of white people.

• 17:17Dana Schwartz?

  One day, between a doubleheader, a priest from the boarding school called DZ over.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  So I walked over, and he introduced me to this cool baseball scout for the Pawtucket Red Sox. So he gave me his card. He said, "As soon as you get out of school this summer, give me a call."

• 17:36Dana Schwartz?

  He said, "I'll send a plane to pick you up, and you can try out for the Red Sox." DZ took the card. His heart racing. It was his favorite team. But then, he met up with his teammates.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  And then my brother said, "What is that?" So I said, "It's a business card. That one made you come out to the East Coast to try out for a pro-ball team." Then one of my nephews said, "Do you believe in?"

• 18:01Dana Schwartz?

  DZ thought about it. A white guy sending a plane for him? A poor Native kid in South Dakota?

• 18:09Speaker 03

  Then I said, "No, I don't believe in it. I tore up that card."

• 18:12Dana Schwartz?

  It's hard to blame him.

• 18:16Dana Schwartz?

  Forget baseball. Native Americans weren't granted blanket U.S. citizenship until 1924. When that scout gave DZ his card, many Indigenous people were still fighting for the right to vote. Indigenous religious ceremonies were still illegal in many parts of the U.S. And in the 1970s, the Indian Health Service became the subject of a shocking investigation into the sterilization of Native women. One study estimated that as many as 1 in 4 American Indian women had been sterilized without consent.

• 18:57Dana Schwartz?

  Most Americans were clueless. In New York, Ann Rockefeller was not.

• 19:03Speaker 03

  There's a couple times that she started crying on a phone call. I'd just say, "Ann, they don't make you cry." It was rough, but still rough. Living under a vision, just go learn how to survive.

• 19:18Dana Schwartz?

  In the late 60s, Native Americans launched their own civil rights struggle, what was called the Red Power Movement.

• 19:29Dana Schwartz?

  Native protesters stormed and claimed Alcatraz Island. They occupied the Mayflower ship in Boston, Mount Rushmore, Wrigley Field in Chicago, even the Bureau of Indian Affairs in DC. Ann followed the protests. She watched in horror as activists were greeted with arrests, tear gas, and even bullets. She decided to do something about it. Ann started a nonprofit aimed at reviving Native languages, ceremonies, and culture, all of the things the federal government had tried to eliminate. It was a mission she maintained for the rest of her life.

• 20:14Dana Schwartz?

  And years later, it led her to pick up the phone and call DZ.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  A lot of Indian people, they don't have nothing to do with anything traditional, anything ceremonial. Go to a ceremony, go to a sweat lodge, take your pipe out and pray with it. They don't have nothing to do with that kind of life. They say them days are gone. I don't need them, whatever. But there's people like my shocked at, "They're not gone. They'll never be gone as long as I'm alive, you know?

• 20:49Speaker 03

  I'll always pray. I'll always go to the ceremony if I can make it. I'll always go to a Powwow, or I'll always be Indian all my life."

• 21:04Dana Schwartz?

  While Ann was fighting those policies, DZ enlisted in the army. He joined in 1968 and was flown to a base in Alaska. He hated the Alaskan cold so much, he requested a transfer to someplace warmer: Vietnam. Sarge said no, and eventually, DZ returned to the reservation. But he remembered the promise he made to himself when he first heard those voices soaring across the ballfield.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  We got our own drum group together on the reservation, my relatives and I, and then we started learning.

• 21:43Dana Schwartz?

  DZ didn't know how to play the drum, or sing, or any of the traditional songs, but he was hell-bent on learning.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  Because, like I said, I'd been growing up speaking a language. So it's important for me to know the songs, especially the traditional songs.

• 22:02Dana Schwartz?

  The Red Power Movement was making real gains. Kids could no longer be forced into boarding schools. And in 1978, Congress passed the American Indian Religious Freedom Act, affirming Native peoples' right to practice their traditional religions. And DZ, for the first time in his life, was free. Free from the boarding schools, free from the rules of military life, free to explore his roots.

• 22:42Dana Schwartz?

  His drum group, called Red Tail, practiced harder. DZ's voice grew stronger, louder.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  There was a singing contest. It was kind of like, well, let's go and see how good we really are.

• 22:58Dana Schwartz?

  DZ picked up his drum and went east to a pow-wow competition in Baltimore. The band won.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  At that pow-wow, we got invited by five or six other people from outside of New York City or Pennsylvania or down in Florida.

• 23:18Dana Schwartz?

  They were getting invites. Play here. No, play there.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  We pretty much went from the north to south on the east coast singing.

• 23:26Dana Schwartz?

  The band went on a spontaneous tour. They hit up more than 20 singing contests and won nearly all of them. One listener was so inspired, they invited the band to play for a stadium concert in a place even farther away.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  We got invited to go to France and Switzerland.

• 23:48Dana Schwartz?

  Suddenly, DZ was singing traditional Sioux songs in front of roaring crowds in the French Alps. It was whiplash, but the more he sang, the more invitations came in. One day, DZ decided he would walk into an audition for an off-Broadway play.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  They gave me a hands drum. And they said, anytime, go and start anytime. I hit that drum once, and I just go.

• 24:22Speaker 03

  That's all I did. I heard that the director said, all right.

• 24:27Dana Schwartz?

  Before long, DZ was onstage, singing in a major off-Broadway production of the play Black Elk Speaks. By the early 90s, DZ would find himself in New York, singing at the Church of St. John the Divine, shaking hands with a stranger who would someday become much more than just a friend.

• 24:54Speaker 05

  GLP-1s are changing weight loss.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  My sister had amazing.

• 24:57Speaker 05

  The ideal treatment is.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Seems like everyone's a GLP-1 expert these days, but when it comes to your health, it pays to listen to someone who actually is. Orderly Meds makes it easy to get started with personalized support along the way. And with your first month's order, we're giving you the second month free. Visit orderlymeds.com. Bringing orders to the chaos of GLP-1s. Individual results may vary. Eligibility and prescription required. Not medical advice. Visit orderlymeds.com for details. Compound and medications are not FDA-approved.

• 25:28Dana Schwartz?

  For more than 30 years, Ann Rockefeller and DZ Ironwing called multiple times a week, sometimes for hours at a stretch.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  I just felt I was getting closer and closer to her as a friend.

• 25:43Dana Schwartz?

  They talked about life, local politics, religion.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  She was pretty interested in the tribe, you know, our Indian way of life. I used to tell her little things, you know, good talking. I'll say, we don't pray to statues of whoever. We pray to Mother Earth, Father Sky, our grandmother, and our great-grandfather, Sky, or grandfather, Sky, I mean, son. I should build a way, pray to. She really liked that a lot.

• 26:20Dana Schwartz?

  One night, DZ's phone rang, as usual. It was Ann. She had a question, a big one.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  She wanted me to adopt her.

• 26:33Dana Schwartz?

  In Sioux families, brother and sister don't need to share blood. If two people feel a kinship, they can adopt one another. And it's not just a title. In Sioux tradition, when someone adopts you, you literally become brother or sister. Your new sibling becomes your responsibility. DZ didn't hesitate.

• 26:57Speaker 03

  Ann, I said, I'd love to adopt you as my sister.

• 27:02Dana Schwartz?

  Usually, an adoption is celebrated with a hunka ceremony: peace pipes, sacred songs, a crowd of well-wishers. But Ann didn't want to wait. She wanted to be his sister now.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  And she said, can we just adopt each other over the phone?

• 27:21Dana Schwartz?

  DZ thought about it for a second. The drums, the fanfare, the ceremony, it's not a requirement.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  I said, sure, we can do that. So we adopted each other over the phone. Became adopted brother and sister.

• 27:38Dana Schwartz?

  Just like that, Ann became bonded to a lineage of Sioux warriors, and DZ became brother to a Rockefeller. DZ didn't tell his friends about his new sister, at least not for a while.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  When I told them, they would just say, oh, really? And they'll go, who's Ann Rockefeller?

• 28:00Dana Schwartz?

  He simply said, Ann is my sister. Usually, his friends would just shake their heads.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  If they did say something, they would say, you know, you shouldn't use the drum.

• 28:14Dana Schwartz?

  As the years passed, brother and sister kept their routine. By the late 2010s, DZ was in his 70s. He had spent four decades teaching boxing lessons to kids on the reservation. It was starting to take its toll. Ann, then in her 80s, was moving slower, too, though she was still doing philanthropy and activism.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  A lot of times, it was mostly, I want to call her because I just want to see how she's doing health-wise. I just want to make sure she's not sick or sickly or in the hospital or wherever, you know.

• 28:51Dana Schwartz?

  She returned the favor. A few years back, DZ's trailer home was falling apart.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  The windows were broke. The door wasn't on right because whenever it snowed, my floor would be full of snow. Or whenever there was a rainstorm or whatever, then my floor would be all wet because the rain. I always told my landlord to fix them. He wouldn't do it.

• 29:13Dana Schwartz?

  When Ann heard about it, she didn't hesitate.

• 29:16Speaker 03

  She said, well, look for a place to live. Look for a better place to live.

• 29:21Dana Schwartz?

  DZ tried to explain. He didn't have the money to move. He was retired. He had already suffered multiple heart attacks. Getting a new job wasn't happening. Ann's answer was simple. I'm your sister now, and you are getting a new house, and I'm going to help pay for it. And so DZ got a new home, off the reservation in Sioux Falls. Big Ann's sister covered half the rent.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  So I've been here, I've been on five years now.

• 29:57Dana Schwartz?

  By 2024, there was more silence between calls. When Ann did get on the line, she still asked, how can I help? Money, groceries?

• 30:08Speaker 03

  And I always said, I really don't need anything. And she said, you don't? I said, no. Ann, I don't really need anything because I already got what I need. And I said, I got you. You're my friend. That's all I need, Ann is a friend. I got her. I don't need anything else.

• 30:29Dana Schwartz?

  There was silence on the other end of the line. DZ couldn't see it, but he knew. She was crying.

• 30:39Dana Schwartz?

  In December 2024, Ann Rockefeller Roberts died at age 90. The memorial service took place at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. DZ flew to New York for the service, and he didn't just sit in the pews.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  I had to go up on the little stage they made, and I got to sing.

• 31:04Dana Schwartz?

  The first time DZ sang there, a stranger walked up and told him she loved his voice. This time, he was there to say goodbye to his sister. He sang the opener and the closer, even an interlude in the middle.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  I was the only performer that got to sing three times. That was pretty nice.

• 31:25Dana Schwartz?

  In the beginning of his life, America's institutions tried to beat the Indian out of him. They worked tirelessly to erase his culture. Now, 70 years later, one of America's most prominent families had invited him to share it and sing it proud.

• 31:48Speaker 04

  Dana, Zaren, I'm not a big phone fan, so the idea of anyone calling me regularly for much of my life is, makes me a little uncomfortable, but if the phone is gonna ring, it might as well be a Rockefeller on the other end.

• 32:03Speaker 06

  Right? And you better answer it, because you don't know where that friendship or the relationship will go.

• 32:08Dana Schwartz?

  I want to talk to people on the phone. I want a phone pen pal.

• 32:11Speaker 06

  Do you talk to people on the phone still? Do you use the phone that way?

• 32:14Dana Schwartz?

  I call my mom like every day. Is that embarrassing to admit?

• 32:17Speaker 06

  No, I call my mother every day, or she actually, she calls me every day, but I answer every day.

• 32:21Dana Schwartz?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  Did you guys ever have actual pen pals in school or adult life?

• 32:28Dana Schwartz?

  No, I had, um, well, when I went to summer camp, we would write letters to people, but never really.

• 32:35Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm. I had friends who, like, we were, uh, young writers, and so when we would leave and be separated for like summer or whatever, we'd write like, long letters to each other, but that's about it. We knew each other before, so, and we were gonna see each other again.

• 32:48Dana Schwartz?

  I wrote a book in emails, mostly.

• 32:50Speaker 06

  Did you?

• 32:50Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 32:51Dana Schwartz?

  I did. I wrote this book called The Arcane Arts, and I wrote the perspective of one character, and my co-writer, Dan, wrote the perspective of the other character. We wrote the emails back and forth, and the first version of the book was only emails, and then we ended up adding, you know, actual chapters. But that, that sort of counts, right?

• 33:09Speaker 06

  Totally counts. That's super cool.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  Commercially viable pen pal story I've ever heard.

• 33:14Dana Schwartz?

  That's it. I, I just monetize my friendships.

• 33:16Speaker 04

  We had, uh, this was probably in like 1990, and we had pen pals in our, our school in, in Denville, New Jersey, had pen pals in Shelyabinsk, Russia. I might be pronouncing that wrong. And then there was all this talk, like, well, if the Iron Curtain falls, we'll probably get to meet each other. And, and, you know, probably, it was four letters over the course of, of a year, and, uh, never happened. So, maybe one day.

• 33:45Speaker 06

  So, when you, when you were writing the letters back and forth, were you just constantly talking about the state of America? Or were you guys just like two kids basically relating to each other at that level?

• 33:52Speaker 04

  I think it was heavily sanitized by, you would get stuff with some cross-outs on it and, and, uh, white out. I think I was trying to sell him that we had figured this out, and our countries are not so different, and we've, we'll probably go on and be allies in the future. Didn't have that one quite right.

• 34:13Speaker 06

  Well, it was a naive hope, but it was hopeful nevertheless.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  Zaren is our, uh, in-house casting director. Did you happen to do this one?

• 34:20Speaker 06

  Yes, I was able to, uh, do some casting. I casted DZ Ironwing, and I went with one of my favorite, uh, Ogalala Lakota actors, Mo Brings Plenty. He's the actor who wears the long braids from Yellowstone in Marshall, so I thought he would just absolutely nail this part. He has a great humanity that just like comes out of him, like just right from his eyes. And then, uh, for Anne Rockefeller, based on her appearance, I had to like look her up to see what she looked like, and her vibes, just in general from the story, I went with Anne Hathaway, because I think she can do both wealthy woman of extreme privilege, and then also has a heart of gold, and they kind of favor each other.

• 34:52Dana Schwartz?

  I do love Anne Hathaway.

• 34:54Speaker 06

  Right? Now, did you guys have a very special character in this one? Because it was kind of limited to, of only a few, so I, I did not personally.

• 35:01Dana Schwartz?

  I mean, it's, the two very special characters are the main characters, right?

• 35:05Speaker 06

  Good call.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  I'll throw one other nomination in here. Lucas Riley, who wrote this episode, his story of how he learned of this is pretty remarkable. He sat next to DZ on an airplane when he was flying to go sing at the memorial at Anne's funeral.

• 35:23Speaker 06

  Are you kidding me?

• 35:24Dana Schwartz?

  No!

• 35:24Speaker 04

  So then they became phone pals, and then these, you could probably hear in the, the interview tape, like, these are phone calls, but maybe we all need a good phone pal.

• 35:34Speaker 06

  For real? Or at least like start calling people more often?

• 35:37Dana Schwartz?

  Met him on a plane.

• 35:38Speaker 06

  Yes, that's awesome.

• 35:40Dana Schwartz?

  Or talking to the people we sit next to on a plane.

• 35:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 35:45Dana Schwartz?

  Asking them what their story is.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  All right, I'm not gonna go that far, but...

• 35:49Dana Schwartz?

  Hey, do you have any relationships with Rockefeller?

• 35:55Speaker 04

  Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people. Today's episode was produced in partnership with School of Humans. This show is hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zaren Burnett, and Jason English. Our senior producer is Josh Fisher. Today's episode was written by Lucas Riley. Editing and sound design by Jesse Nyswan. Our story editor is Virginia Prescott. From School of Humans, producers are Adelies Perez, Amelia Brock, and Lucas Riley. Original music by Elise McCoy. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott and Jason English. Very Special Episodes is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

• 36:49Speaker 05

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• 37:20Speaker 02

  Hello?

• 37:21Speaker 05

  Hey, it's me, your wallet.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Oh, hey.

• 37:23Speaker 05

  I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 37:28Speaker 05

  Really?

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Yep. I'm shopping at Food Lion.

• 37:30Speaker 05

  Wait, you mean low prices?

• 37:32Speaker 02

  And MVP savings.

• 37:34Speaker 05

  Oh, you do care?

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Obviously.

• 37:37Speaker 05

  Okay, I feel better.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Good. Now, let's go get some snacks. At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at FoodLion.com.

• 37:56Speaker 07

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.