Blind Dates, Vacation Hanky-Panky, and Withstanding the Real Housewives Curse with Terry and Heather Dubrow

We’re joined by our friends Terry and Heather Dubrow, who open up about how they met on a blind date and Heather’s initial reluctance to settle down. They get candid about the challenges (or lack thereof) of raising four children in Orange County and in the reality TV spotlight, Terry’s ultimate act of betrayal to get Heather to join The Real Housewives of Orange County, and the rules they’ve put in place to keep their marriage strong while laying it all out on television. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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• 2:34Speaker 05

  Hello, everybody, and welcome to No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez. Today, I am so excited to announce that we have some amazing guests who have a very rare and special relationship. A marriage that has outstood the test of time of any reality couple that I can name on hand. And they talk about all sorts of things, from marriage to relationships, to raising kids, all of the things. They're gonna drop some wisdom, so make sure you guys listen. Before we get started, I wanted to talk about our ick of the week.

• 3:07Speaker 06

  Ick of the week?

• 3:08Speaker 05

  Ick of the week. Are you ready for this?

• 3:10Speaker 06

  I'm ready. Go for it.

• 3:11Speaker 05

  All right, well, I don't know if I have a-

• 3:12Speaker 06

  Do everybody know what an ick is? Like, is that knowledge?

• 3:14Speaker 05

  I'm pretty sure the whole world knows what an ick is.

• 3:16Speaker 06

  Well, I didn't know what an ick was, so maybe somebody's out there-

• 3:20Speaker 05

  Well, why don't you explain to everyone in the world what an ick is if they don't know already?

• 3:24Speaker 06

  It's something that makes you sick, right? Like something you don't like?

• 3:27Speaker 05

  Ick and sick do rhyme, but I don't know if that's necessarily, I mean, yes-

• 3:31Speaker 06

  Meaning like a, like a, like a, I don't know, a turn-off?

• 3:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, big turn-off. Like a deal breaker. Like, eh, I saw somebody do that, eh, it makes me sick. I can't ever look at you the same. I can't be around it. I have the ick.

• 3:44Speaker 06

  Okay, that's not an ick. Not an annoyance, though. So, somebody who flips their hair a certain way?

• 3:50Speaker 05

  That could, that could give me the ick. If I saw, if I saw a man flip his hair like you just did, that would definitely be an ick.

• 3:57Speaker 06

  Chewing your gum, like, smacking the gum and stuff like that, or smacking too loud with the gum? That's an ick? Is that an ick?

• 4:04Speaker 05

  Like, a man jumping over a puddle with both feet.

• 4:06Speaker 06

  Jumping over a puddle with both feet?

• 4:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, a man who puts his foot up on something to tie his shoe.

• 4:12Speaker 06

  Why is that an ick?

• 4:13Speaker 05

  Instead of like kneeling down. I don't know. It just feels like, I don't know.

• 4:18Speaker 06

  You've got a lot of icks.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  I have a lot of icks. I'm, I'm-

• 4:20Speaker 06

  There's no way you can do it in one.

• 4:21Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't know what to say. But I don't have an ick with you this week, which is a shock. But I do think that we have a mutual ick that we've talked about. Do you wanna, you want me to bring it up?

• 4:28Speaker 06

  Bring it up on this air.

• 4:30Speaker 05

  The mutual ick that Tony and I have had this week is that we were at a dinner, I don't even know if you're gonna remember this, but you're definitely gonna agree with me. We were out to dinner with a group of people, and there was one particular person at that dinner, and it was a long dinner. I mean, like, hours. And not one time did that person ever engage in conversation.

• 4:50Speaker 06

  I know who you're talking about.

• 4:51Speaker 05

  This person did not engage in conversation the entire night unless they were asked a question about themselves. And then proceeded to talk about themselves the entire time. And-

• 5:02Speaker 06

  When, once they were asked about themselves.

• 5:04Speaker 05

  Correct. But then would not speak otherwise. And it was like, very weird. And so weird that it was like, it was noticed by multiple people.

• 5:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:13Speaker 05

  And so it was just a very strange thing. But I thought to myself, like, ew, that would be like the, that is an ick. That is like, ew, like, be more conversational. Like, it's, it's a, it's a tennis match, right? You go, I go. Be interested, act interested, even if you're not interested. It's just like common courtesy. So, the ick is that-

• 5:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, like-

• 5:33Speaker 05

  You can't just be so-

• 5:34Speaker 06

  Be curious about somebody else. Just ask me what my favorite color is. Ask me about the kids. Ask me about anything.

• 5:42Speaker 05

  Fake it.

• 5:43Speaker 06

  But this person couldn't do that. Nothing, nothing. So, they're just in love with themselves. I think it's more of like narcissism or, but it is an ick.

• 5:51Speaker 05

  It is an ick, for sure. An ick. All right, well, I'm glad we agree on this because that's an important, an important thing to do.

• 5:58Speaker 06

  You could do icks for days. You've got a lot of icks. I would hate to have that many icks. You've got too many icks.

• 6:04Speaker 05

  I'm sorry. You just have to, that should make you feel good about yourself that like, you made it past the test of icks. Like, that's a big deal. You're, you're an award-winning human being. You're not, you're, you're a-

• 6:16Speaker 06

  I think you've changed.

• 6:17Speaker 05

  You're a gentleman and a scholar.

• 6:18Speaker 06

  I think you have way more icks now than you've ever had in your life.

• 6:21Speaker 05

  It could be my perimenopause, you know? Everything's sort of like, ew, like gets me in a certain way.

• 6:25Speaker 06

  That man had a mini pause. Gets you.

• 6:28Speaker 05

  Okay, moving on. We are so excited, you guys, to talk to our friends Heather and Terry Dubrow. Iconic couple. You live under a rock if you have not heard of them, okay? She is an actress, entrepreneur, media personality, and author. And you probably have seen her on TV on a little show called Real Housewives of Orange County, okay? Also, her husband Terry is a board-certified plastic surgeon. He is an obesity medicine specialist, a media personality, and entrepreneur, okay? We are so excited to chat with them about all things life. They dropped some wisdom on us, things that like, I definitely think we're gonna take along with us and-

• 7:09Speaker 06

  Take a hike, take a hike.

• 7:10Speaker 05

  Yeah. So make sure you tune in and watch No Safe Words.

• 7:14Speaker 06

  They don't know what that means, but take a hike is something they talk about.

• 7:17Speaker 05

  You'll figure it out.

• 7:17Speaker 06

  You'll figure it out. But yeah, watch it. It's good.

• 7:22Speaker 05

  All right, Heather and Terry Dubrow, welcome to No Safe Words. We're so happy to have you here. Thank you for having us. It's so good to see you guys. This is like making my life. You know, I love you. And I have, really, I've heard so many amazing things about you. But specifically from my friend Becca Tobin, who you know from Lady Gang podcast. And for whatever reason, she brought it up to me. She's like, I love Heather. And I go, oh, my gosh, you do? She's like, every year on my birthday, without fail, she sends me a happy birthday text. Of course. I'm like, this classy B over here. She never, you know, misses a beat. She is on it. So, everyone has lovely things to say about you. That is very nice. Thank you. Um, so-

• 8:00Speaker 06

  I'm sure they say good stuff about you.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Not as much as I say about me.

• 8:04Speaker 05

  Wonderful things about you as well. He says enough good things about himself. Well, I like the confidence. I love it. So I don't know if you guys have seen this, but there is like a viral thing happening right now with influencers going to the streets and basically interviewing cute couples that they see and going, "Hey, what's your meet-cute story? Can you tell us your meet-cute story?"

• 8:24Speaker 06

  Have you heard of this?

• 8:25Speaker 05

  Have you seen this?

• 8:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 8:26Speaker 06

  God, I didn't know what the hell it was either. I was like, what is a meet-cute?

• 8:29Speaker 05

  No, I know what a meet-cute is, but I haven't seen people- You haven't seen it on the street? No, I know-

• 8:33Speaker 06

  You've heard of meet-cute?

• 8:34Speaker 03

  Yes, I actually have, weirdly.

• 8:36Speaker 05

  Your kids don't teach you these terms, Tony?

• 8:38Speaker 06

  I don't know this stuff.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  It's an 80s, 90s rom-com thing, isn't it?

• 8:43Speaker 05

  Bet.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:44Speaker 05

  What's, what are those other things? Slay? No cap. Oh.

• 8:47Speaker 06

  Chopped.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  Chopped. Oh.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Jester.

• 8:50Speaker 05

  I'm mugging you. Oh, yes. Yes, mugging.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, if I say riz, my kids say that's already so last year.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  They think we're very cringey. Oh, of course we do. Of course we do. But the meet-cute part is actually like, I love hearing the stories of how couples have met. And obviously, you've probably said this a million times, or you've probably told this story. But when did you two meet and how did this all like sort of come together from the beginning? So what's crazy is this December, December 7th.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  Yes, a day that will live in infamy.

• 9:23Speaker 05

  Which is the only reason I think we remember the date, because it was December 7th, is the 30-year anniversary of our blind date. Oh, my gosh.

• 9:32Speaker 06

  A blind date?

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 05

  That's huge, a blind date.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  We were set up. So, my friend called me that I did general surgery with. He wanted to do liver transplant surgery. I stayed at UCLA to do plastic surgery. Calls me like three years later. I'm in my practice and he goes, "Hey, you still single?" I go, "Actually, I am. I just broke up with my girlfriend three months ago."

• 9:52Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Who ended up being convicted of double murder and put in jail. That was my last girlfriend.

• 9:57Speaker 05

  By the way, the one that got away.

• 9:59Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:02Speaker 06

  Get the hell out of here.

• 10:03Speaker 03

  Missed it by that much.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  True.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  Yes, she's in prison right now.

• 10:07Speaker 05

  That's a whole other podcast.

• 10:09Speaker 03

  Yes. So, and he said, he goes, "Okay, great. So, my girlfriend is an actress, and she's got a best friend who's an actress, and I'd like to set you up." I said, "Okay." And I said, "Where does she wait tables?" "An actress." She goes, "No."

• 10:26Speaker 05

  Funny.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's, she was actually on a TV show. He goes, "No, she's actually on a show Sunday night at 8:00 PM." And I said, "Oh, really?" And I thought, uh-uh. So, we were gonna be set, we got set up at, they wanted to go to the grill. And I said, "Let's go to the Ivy at the Shore. Let's all meet at the Ivy at the Shore, because I love that restaurant."

• 10:44Speaker 05

  By the way, I'm 27, and-

• 10:46Speaker 03

  I was 37.

• 10:47Speaker 05

  You were 38.

• 10:48Speaker 03

  I was 37.

• 10:49Speaker 05

  You were 38. It was December-

• 10:50Speaker 01

  December, you were thirty eight, because we're ten and a half years apart. He was thirty eight, I was twenty seven, and I was dating this comedian at the time, like casually, whatever. And I said to my friend's boyfriend, I'm like, don't you know one Jewish doctor, like one, there's gotta be one, and I was half kidding, half not. And then they came back to me and said, yeah, my friend is single, I think you might like him, let's set it up, and I went, okay, let's do it. But then, alright, so we went on the date.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and we're sitting there, and they were like forty five minutes late, my buddy and I were sitting there, and he goes, oh, they're here.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 11:21Speaker 03

  And these two girls walk up, and I looked at them, and they looked like they were about forty nine, okay? And it's not that they weren't attractive, they just weren't, you know, something, wow, okay, I didn't really. And then they kept going, and then Heather and her friend walked right.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  And, you know, Heather is, you know, I, I thought, my first impression of her was two things, one, I thought she was flat chested, because she was wearing this minimizer. Turns out she had, she had these incredible deep breasts that were so.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Very natural big breasts, when I needed them.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Not anymore.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  And I thought, I thought, oh, yeah, this is never, I'm way too pretty for me, I just thought it was reaching up for me, to be honest with you.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I'm still.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  No, I'm saying it's true.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  And then we sat down, and we were just locked in.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:17Speaker 05

  Really?

• 12:17Speaker 03

  And from that.

• 12:18Speaker 05

  Immediate.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Imme- I'm like, immediate, I mean, she was a little questioning, I think, at first, maybe significantly questioning, probably. And then we hung out, and then my car pulled up, and I go, okay, so it's a Porsche, I didn't want to be like the typical idiot.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  No, no, actually, what he said was, here's my obnoxious car, which I thought was so weird.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  Well, you had to like.

• 12:38Speaker 03

  I just was, you know, okay, it's a Porsche, I'm an LA plastic surgeon, this is so cliche. And, um, and then I waited at home to see whether she wanted to, uh, date me, go out with me again. And I kept checking my, this is how long ago this was, I took my thing out on my phone, it went. Because that's how you activated your answering machine.

• 12:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's no cell phones at this point.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  I had one in my car, I was one of the only people that had a cell.

• 13:06Speaker 03

  I did, yes.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  We had cell phones, but not smartphones.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Not cell phones that you carried, this is, this is the days you had the big thing.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  Oh, yes.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  Anyway, so I was waiting, I, and he goes, I don't know, I don't know if she wants to go out, so I go, okay, so I went for a long run with my friend. And then I came back, and I go. And all of a sudden I hear some. And then he goes, hey, Terry, it's Craig, I'm going, here comes the answer, because I really wanted to go out with her again, he goes. She said she'd go out with you if you were crazy about her.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Wild about.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  Wild about her, and I went.

• 13:37Speaker 05

  That's really cute.

• 13:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 13:39Speaker 06

  Good line.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  Wild about her, so I call him, I go, yeah, I'm wild about her, whatever. So we went out again.

• 13:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, was he not gonna say he's wild about you?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Well, it was like this, we had this date, we totally got along, I mean, we had great conversations and all things, but I mean, to me, I'm twenty seven.

• 13:53Speaker 05

  Right.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  I'm an actress, I'm on TV, I'm like doing my thing, I'm living by myself.

• 13:57Speaker 05

  In your prime.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  I'm in my prime, and actually, I feel like I'm in my prime right now, but, but the beginning of the prime. And to me, he's almost forty, right, he's like a doctor.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  Just turned thirty eight.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  But twenty seven to almost forty, to me and my brain, you can understand this.

• 14:12Speaker 05

  Established, he's like a grown.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  He's like a, like a, like an established, I don't know, I had to.

• 14:16Speaker 06

  Have you dated older men before, or was this was the first, this would have been the oldest man you've ever dated?

• 14:21Speaker 01

  I think so, I might have gotten a date. Oh, maybe about the same, no, not seriously, maybe like gone out on a date with, but not like seriously dated.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  How old was the director guy that wanted to take you to Europe?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Younger.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  He's younger than me now, we know him still. Oh, sorry.

• 14:40Speaker 05

  A comedian, a doctor.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  No, younger than you.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  She's not range.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Basically, what happened was, we went on this date, we were like a little like here and there for about a month, and then we went away to Napa.

• 14:53Speaker 05

  Right.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  And we fell in love, I mean, from that, from the moment we got to, I don't know if you remember the car barn, do you remember the car barn? It was this place like before private suites, before we were all bougie. There was this place at LX, and you would drive your car there, this felt bougie at the time.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  You would drive your car to the car barn, and then they would take you via shuttle. Over to the airport.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  It was very fancy.

• 15:16Speaker 05

  You're lucky.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  Was it a van?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  In a van.

• 15:18Speaker 03

  With spots on it.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:19Speaker 05

  Lovely.

• 15:20Speaker 03

  Remember that?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  That's when they changed it to the car spot.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Oh, the car spot, that's right.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  So funny.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  Anyway.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Anyway, and the rest is history, and here we are thirty years later.

• 15:27Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 15:28Speaker 06

  It went just like that, it was no, um, dating on and off, it was love, we go to Napa, now we're in love, we can have some wine, some cheese. All the stuff, you go Napa, and it was, let's, let's roll.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Basically, we had those beginning, you know, that first four or five weeks.

• 15:43Speaker 06

  Never broke up, never had like a.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Oh, we did break up for one, for twelve hours.

• 15:48Speaker 05

  Twelve hours.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  There, in the very beginning, you know, I was supposed to, I said, okay, so I'll pick you up Sunday at seven for like second date alone. And I thought, oh, this is so good, I got a date with a.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  That's not what happened.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Hold on, wait, I haven't got the story that.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  You said there was a time, there was no time.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Let's go out on Sunday, was the conversation.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Okay, great, let's go on Sunday, Toby, what would be an acceptable time for a gentleman to call you on Sunday to tell you what time, what the plan is, et cetera?

• 16:18Speaker 05

  The earlier, the better, for planning out.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Could they call you at five? No.

• 16:23Speaker 05

  No.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Could they call you at four?

• 16:25Speaker 03

  Two.

• 16:26Speaker 06

  You'd be pissed.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  I called her two.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Could they call you?

• 16:28Speaker 05

  He knows me, what, how would, what would.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  You have to call in the morning.

• 16:31Speaker 06

  Uh, pissed, yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 05

  I'd be a little, I'd be quite annoyed.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  It was like two, three, four o'clock, he finally called.

• 16:35Speaker 03

  You actually were upsetting, call you before, day before that, to firm, to confirm.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  By the way, don't you want to know what time, what you're gonna wear, you gotta get your hair done, whatever it is.

• 16:44Speaker 05

  As a woman, we just.

• 16:45Speaker 03

  So, I call her, and of course, she didn't pick up, I went, uh, no.

• 16:49Speaker 05

  She's annoyed, she's like.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  So then, I, I had to, I had to, her show was on at eight, and I knew she was at home watching her own show, right?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Which was actually a bad assumption, because I don't like watching myself, but that I was watching.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  Yes, so I called her during the show, and she picked up, and I, ha.

• 17:06Speaker 05

  Good one.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I mean, we sort of like, that feeling that you're talking about, you know, when you've talked to somebody for the very first time, and there's like this easiness to it, or like this familiarity of like, I, I feel like I've known you my whole life.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 05

  Would you say that was always there?

• 17:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Totally, and I also think that sometimes, when something is, I'm so curious how you guys met, because I don't think I know that.

• 17:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Story, but sometimes when you meet the right person, it's scary, and even you don't realize it, and it's sort of your subconscious. Kind of doing the push-pull thing, like, am I ready for this, do I want this, I, should I release myself to this, should I take a chance?

• 17:43Speaker 03

  That's her way of explaining that she wasn't actually very nice to me the first six weeks.

• 17:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, she wasn't ready, she wasn't ready.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Isn't that what you're explaining?

• 17:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:50Speaker 06

  Are you not explaining that, because sometimes when you meet somebody, when you feel like, you're like, oh, shit.

• 17:54Speaker 05

  Well, because he was definitely like that, that's why he's saying that.

• 17:56Speaker 06

  But, but I was not ready.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  He wasn't nice?

• 17:58Speaker 05

  No, he was nice, but he, I could tell he was not ready.

• 18:01Speaker 06

  Not ready.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  It was like immediate connection, immediate, all of that, right? But again, sort of, when you're not in a place where you thought this might happen now, you sort of like draw back, or like, you know, you're just not ready.

• 18:12Speaker 06

  That was like you.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, yeah, I also, I wasn't sure about him.

• 18:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Wasn't like, he didn't like sort of fit the mold of what.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  I had dated, or what I was, thought I was looking for.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  It was the face for radio thing.

• 18:26Speaker 05

  Please, please.

• 18:28Speaker 06

  But vice versa, though, you were like, okay, this is.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Oh, I mean, yeah, I never, to be honest with you, I didn't want to get married until I was forty.

• 18:36Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 18:36Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Check, that's what happened.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, and so I was, no matter who I went out with, my whole life, I had no interest in like going that path all the way. So, this was the first one I went, whoa, you know, you better be careful, because if you pass on this one, you're not gonna see anything like this again, I don't think.

• 18:54Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, babe, I feel like you were the exact same.

• 18:56Speaker 06

  Kind of the same way.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  How did you guys?

• 18:58Speaker 05

  Like, this is what he always says, literally verbatim, he was like, I wasn't ready, but I felt like I just had to be ready, because I knew that you were somebody different, you were somebody special, so I had to sort of.

• 19:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 06

  We have a similar story in that, I said, I'm not, I don't want to get married till I'm thirty, I'm ten years behind you, and I, I think I met you when I was twenty seven, twenty, twenty-six, twenty-seven.

• 19:20Speaker 05

  So young.

• 19:21Speaker 06

  And we dated off and on, like, I would go back to the football season, we, we were never boyfriend-girlfriend.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  He was the first casual relationship I ever had, I never had quote-unquote a booty call, and he was the first one ever that I sort of like had a casual relationship with.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  And, but did you know, did you. Kind of no, or you like just taking it at face value?

• 19:42Speaker 05

  I took it at face value. Like, you know, I worked at a restaurant when we met that was owned by Dennis Rodman, ironically, in Newport Beach.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Oh, you worked at, um, Josh Slocum. Yeah, of course.

• 19:53Speaker 05

  So I was singing up in LA. I had like a contract up in LA for singing and I was like needing to make some cash, which bottle service wasn't a thing back then, but we were doing bottle service at Dennis Rodman's.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we know.

• 20:04Speaker 05

  So you know that place?

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• 24:26Speaker 05

  Oh, it was wild. And in walks this guy, along with a million other athletes, on a, on a regular day. And from what I know, all the girls are like, these guys are the worst. Don't date an athlete.

• 24:35Speaker 06

  Right.

• 24:36Speaker 05

  Assholes. They're like losers. Like, they'll just cheer you up and spit you out. So of course, I'm like, oh, God, this guy comes in and he's asking me out. You know, it happens. We're waitresses. And so I just don't think anything of it, really. But then he comes back like a year later after he finds out I'm single and is like, let me take you out. So it was a lot of persistence and sweetness and...

• 24:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, but even then, it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, okay, we're in love now. Let's get married. I want to have kids. I was still, in my mind, I was sticking to the timeline. Like, look, you got to make it till 30 because you want to be single.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Right. But you already had a son, right?

• 25:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, I already have a son.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So does that change like how you move forward? Because we, I mean, we got married, people would say later, right? I was 30, he was 40. We had careers. We were doing other things. But I wonder if one of us had had a child, if that would have changed it. I wonder if that makes you wait longer or you have to be more sure.

• 25:27Speaker 06

  I don't know. I don't think.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  You didn't think about it?

• 25:32Speaker 05

  He was so young and like playing football and just a wild animal.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  How old was he when you guys met?

• 25:38Speaker 05

  You were 20.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  Women and football and you just, you know, it's a different world.

• 25:44Speaker 06

  When we started dating, Nico was, what, three?

• 25:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, two, three years old, something like that. And then, we didn't get serious until about two, three years later. It took a while.

• 25:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, and we did it off and on. So it was, I think that's why he was asking, like, was it immediate? Were there any breaks?

• 25:58Speaker 03

  How long after it was on did it take before you proposed?

• 26:02Speaker 05

  Oh, wow. Oh, on?

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Like, once you were dating.

• 26:05Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 03

  Once you're quick, you're in.

• 26:07Speaker 06

  Once I knew, I was like, okay, what do we, let's go. Let's press go. Let's get married. Let's have kids.

• 26:13Speaker 05

  Because after, like, you know, you said, like, in Napa, you were like, oh, this is something. Then it's like, what are we waiting for?

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Two years we took, right?

• 26:19Speaker 06

  Two years you took?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so here's what happened.

• 26:23Speaker 06

  See, we had it in our mind.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  And it worked.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  We were, so once we fell in love and that took like a couple of months, but we were in it, right? And we were sitting, this sounds so weird, but his stepfather passed away and he was, I, I, you have to understand, he was an asshole. Can we curse? Is that okay?

• 26:39Speaker 05

  Yes, please. Please curse.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  He, he was an asshole, which is why this is not like mean. But we're watching the service and this rabbi was doing this service and talking about his stepfather in a way that he didn't lie about him, but kind of just made it okay.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Right? And I, we had never talked about getting married. And I leaned over to Terry and I go, he should marry us. And he goes, I was thinking the same thing.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Really?

• 27:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  This is the conversation we had. And so all of a sudden, I'm like, all right, let's get married.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  And of course, he did marry us.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did. He married us. He married my sister and her husband. He did all of our baby namings. We love them, him and his, his wife. But, so we started looking for rings right after that and that freaked him out.

• 27:21Speaker 05

  It was the ring part. Cause she said, I want that diamond. He said, oh.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  I don't even think it was that. Well, this wasn't the first one, Toby.

• 27:29Speaker 06

  That's a big ass ring.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  It took a lot longer to get this one.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  Equivalent of that back then. Maybe half the size, but.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  It was like a.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  Bigger than half the size.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  No, honey. That was like a five-carat stone.

• 27:41Speaker 03

  Oh, what is that?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Bigger.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 27:44Speaker 06

  She said that was a five-carat. Isn't that big?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  That was big. Yes.

• 27:49Speaker 03

  It was big.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  But I don't think it was the money that freaked him out. I think it was just the idea of forever. And also,

• 27:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  He had come from parents that had been married five times collectively.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to wait. I had no interest in getting married. And if I, right, right. And if I never did, and I thought, if I never did get married and never had kids, that would be okay, to be honest with you.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  He'd still give some of them back, I think.

• 28:14Speaker 05

  Speaking of that, uh, you guys have raised teenagers and I, we are in the thick of raising teenagers. I mean, we have our biggest, heated, most crazy arguments over raising teenagers. Did you guys have an easy time? Cause to me, from a distance, it seems like you've, all of your children are wonderfully kind and sweet and, like, I just don't feel like you guys are like these stressed-out parents, but am I wrong?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  We're not stressed out. I mean, we suffer things for sure. Because when your kids go through things.

• 28:44Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  You suffer it. But we're not stressed-out parents. I think that Terry and I both, and I'm, you could speak for yourself, obviously, but I, when we, our parents were much different.

• 28:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  And I know for me in particular, like my parents were very 1950s and everything was swept under the rug and they didn't talk about things.

• 29:03Speaker 05

  Right.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  I am the polar opposite. And I think the two of us have always been on the same page with how we were going to raise our kids and being very communicative with them, which is what's helped a lot. But look, we go through the same shit as everyone. You know, they can be assholes, they can be fabulous, they can be everything in between. They go through things. We're their safe space. And you know how people say it's better that they're like not nice at home and fabulous out in the world? Which sucks for us, but you, but it's better because it means they feel safe with you. Um, you know, we've gone through all that stuff.

• 29:35Speaker 05

  Right. That's good to know.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  But we're not, we're not stressed.

• 29:38Speaker 03

  No, I was raised by a very permissive, single mother, okay, for most of my childhood. And I don't know, I'm just a very permissive father. I'm just, I come up and I go, oh, right, I have kids. And they go, they go, Dad, can I go? The answer is yes, unless you ask me too many times and then it's no. So just assume it's yes and go.

• 29:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, go, go, go, go.

• 29:59Speaker 03

  But they're also.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  That's why I'm the parent.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  They're also the kind of kids where you go, hey, want to try some vodka? They go, vodka? No. I'm going, okay, fine.

• 30:08Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  So my theory was because I was, grew up in this very, um, protected household. I mean, me and my sister did, I mean, we snuck out of the house. We did so.

• 30:19Speaker 05

  You're wild.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  We were totally wild. We totally rebelled. There's still things we laugh about, like how do we survive that?

• 30:25Speaker 05

  Right.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  My, with my kids, our kids, I will, I felt like I'm going to give you as much rope as you can handle. And, you know, show me that you can handle it. Let's talk about things. They never, they, they didn't give us trouble like that.

• 30:39Speaker 05

  Right.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  I think there's some genetics involved. We just don't have a wild one. None of them. None of them.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  But they always all knew they could call. There was nothing off limits.

• 30:50Speaker 05

  Open dialogue.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Everything. Sometimes they tell me too much.

• 30:54Speaker 05

  I'm jealous. My kids are like bolts. I'm like that needy mom. I make myself sick sometimes. I'm like, tell me about your life. Tell me anything.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  There we are. The only thing that, the only thing that annoys me is when I see. Like one of the kids has him on their screensaver and not me. Wow, someone carried you, birthed you and took care of you, but great. He's your screensaver.

• 31:18Speaker 06

  So with these kids, with these kids, and you, how did you discipline them though, when they did screw up? Cause they come out, I know you said, it sounds like your kids are just perfect, but.

• 31:27Speaker 05

  They've got wonderful kids.

• 31:28Speaker 06

  What was like an egregious thing that they would do that, that, that you would have to say, all right, stop. Did they fight a lot amongst each other? Did they steal? Did they ever do it?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:38Speaker 06

  When I say steal, like take things from each other.

• 31:39Speaker 05

  Take your credit card or use your credit card without permission, like things that you just, you know.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 31:44Speaker 05

  Wow, we're really.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  They can.

• 31:46Speaker 06

  Look at these people.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. It's just a nature nerd. They just happen to be.

• 31:50Speaker 06

  They respected curfew, all that teenagers.

• 31:53Speaker 05

  They'd call. The heck.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 06

  They don't, they don't sneak out of the.

• 31:56Speaker 05

  Honey, this is what we get with our genetics.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  They don't have to sneak out of the house because they, they didn't never have to sneak out of the house because they were allowed to do.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  Whatever.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Whatever they want.

• 32:04Speaker 06

  Oh, I want to get into this. What do you mean do whatever you want?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Meaning you, whatever age it was, if they were like, oh, I'm going to come home at 11:30 or 12, or even in high school, whatever it was. It was fine. As long as I know where you are and how are you getting home and who's driving and is anyone drinking and that kind of thing. And they were always very honest about it. So we never had problems. Now, there, there have been times like, um, you know, we have property in Idaho. And so it, it's like every, we call our youngest one a free range chicken because he's, he's the fourth, you know, he can juggle knives. But he's a new driver and it's like, you know, can you drive? And I had to sit him down and go, let me explain something to you. In the wilderness, like I grew up in Westchester, New York. We drove on hills in the snow with literal deer crossings that would jump in front of your car.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  I was used to that. I'm like, you don't understand wildlife. You don't know what it's like to drive on roads with no street lights.

• 32:57Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Like, I don't want you driving, even though you're not drinking and you're hanging out watching a movie at your little friend's house. You can't be on the road at 1:00 AM because everyone else on the road is drunk.

• 33:08Speaker 05

  See, the same thing I say.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  So those are the conversations. So it's like, it's, and to, and to let them know it's not about you.

• 33:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  I trust you.

• 33:16Speaker 05

  Right.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Totally. But you know what? Then watch it at our house.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  You know, I, I don't know that you would agree with this, but there's also, you know, first of all, we're in Newport Beach, Orange County.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Very safe.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  Not that wild anyway.

• 33:26Speaker 05

  No, no, definitely not.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  Very spread out, very conservative and they grew up being kids on The Real Housewives of Orange County.

• 33:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Under a microscope, there's always cameras everywhere they go. Oh, you're so and so's, you know, they.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  You think that mattered?

• 33:42Speaker 03

  I think they always felt.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  They don't care at all.

• 33:44Speaker 05

  Oh, I wondered.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  I do think they care. I think they always had the concern, just like you guys have and we have that. You know, if you do something left of center, it's going to be on TMZ.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  Right? I think they always had that in the back of their minds that they had to be a little more careful. Because they were housewife kids.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  I'm going to ask them that.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 05

  Well, that might've been a benefit to you guys.

• 34:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? So they just had to like be a little bit more like on the safer side. Probably kept them out of trouble, maybe a little bit. Who knows?

• 34:15Speaker 03

  But they're just not getting in trouble.

• 34:17Speaker 05

  They weren't going to be that anyway, but you know, maybe it just.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  In the pandemic, we, we were concerned that our two oldest kids were going to go to college and never have had a sip of alcohol. And I know this is probably unpopular.

• 34:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  But I was like, you, you're going to like implode on yourself. So during the pandemic, we're like, well, let's start with like, uh, you know, a pina colada.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Like maybe you might enjoy that. I'm pouring out pineapple. They were so disinterested.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  You know, and then we tried the marijuana and the sniffing glue and the cocaine.

• 34:51Speaker 06

  This is Tom Molly.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Here it is for you.

• 34:54Speaker 03

  Come on, and I feel like the syringe, nothing excited.

• 34:58Speaker 05

  They're like, nothing.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Obviously he's choking. But we were, I mean, we were worried about it. And I'll tell you, like our oldest son, Nick, he, he likes a, a drink, but he drinks so responsibly. Would never ever have a sip of alcohol and get behind the wheel of a car. And his twin sister, Max, she literally just had a glass of wine.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  For the first time.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  She's going to be 23 in November. She just had a glass of wine.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  She just started law school.

• 35:22Speaker 06

  This is wild. This is wild.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  And by the way, we are functioning alcoholics. So I don't know. I don't know where this came from. I mean, I was sad there was no booze here.

• 35:32Speaker 05

  You know, it could come from them watching The Real Housewives. You know what I mean? Some of these women get a little crazy after a couple of drinks.

• 35:38Speaker 03

  Scared them away. Scared straight.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'd say straight.

• 35:43Speaker 06

  I'm blown away. No backtalk, nothing?

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:46Speaker 05

  Moving on.

• 35:47Speaker 06

  Okay. I'm blown away because we have teenagers. They're fricking, one of them is a maniac. He's a fricking maniac.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  How old?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  How old?

• 35:54Speaker 05

  Sixteen.

• 35:54Speaker 06

  Sixteen.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Well, so he hasn't come back yet.

• 35:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  So this is what I always say, like, I feel like they all go through a douchey phase. What I have found with our kids, it's like from 11 ish to 14 ish is the real douchey spot. And even the one that we used to call the good one, she went through it too.

• 36:11Speaker 05

  Right.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  But when they come back to you after they like sort of come out of the darkness, they're so cool. And, and adult and you can talk to them and they, they get to such this interesting spot. But some of them go through it at different times. So maybe he's just on his own little timeline. But listen, even at this age, no one is perfect. I will have words. I had words with my 19 year old yesterday.

• 36:34Speaker 05

  Right.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  And it was like, I said to her, I go, I think you're being incredibly disrespectful.

• 36:38Speaker 05

  Right.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  And I don't appreciate it. And I'm sure we're going to have to have a talk about it.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  There's plenty of that. I mean, we used to go to restaurants and they were just so painful at the table. They weren't like, oh, we're with mom and dad. This is wonderful.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Oh no, we went through all of that.

• 36:52Speaker 03

  I didn't want to go out there.

• 36:53Speaker 06

  Just making me feel better.

• 36:54Speaker 03

  No, they're that. They are definitely that douchey.

• 36:56Speaker 05

  But not anymore. That'll do. Thank you so much.

• 37:01Speaker 06

  But I also, I think the parenting advice there from you guys that I'm kind of getting is you, you said you were very open. You communicate a lot and you, it kind of sounds like you're more accepting too.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yes, very.

• 37:12Speaker 06

  It wasn't, okay.

• 37:13Speaker 05

  It's great advice.

• 37:13Speaker 06

  Right. It wasn't so overly strict where they say like when you're pulling a dog on a leash, like.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:18Speaker 06

  Like then they want to fight against it. But if you let them flow a little bit, then they won't fight you as much.

• 37:22Speaker 05

  Well, eh eh is pretty strict.

• 37:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, maybe I've been a little too strict. I don't know.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  And then the other thing is, and you probably are so good at this, but you have to figure out what their passion is because, you know, not everyone's a straight A student.

• 37:34Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  And not everyone is a sports person and not everyone's artistic.

• 37:38Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And so to force kids, you know, they should dabble in everything, try everything.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  Right.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Until they really, you know, latch on to something, but that's a big thing too. Cause there's so many parents out there that are like, you must get these grades or you, I'm like, I was, all right, I was a terrible student. I showed one of my kids my report card from high school that weirdly my dad saved. And I, he was horrified because he's such a good student. And I'm like, I was a musical theater person. I was a great singer and dancer and actress, but math wasn't my thing.

• 38:10Speaker 05

  Girl, preaching to the choir.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  All right. So you know, we have other gifts.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  We have other gifts. That's true.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  I'm good at math now though.

• 38:18Speaker 05

  Oh, that's impressive. We'll have to get the.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Wife math, wife math, Toby, wife math.

• 38:24Speaker 05

  Okay, girl math.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Girl math.

• 38:25Speaker 05

  If it's on sale, it's free. Exactly, exactly. Getting back to you guys' marriage and, and you know, getting on The Real Housewives and the whole family dynamic. You, what was the decision going into that? Was there any fear going into that or was Terry going?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Tell them, dear.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  I don't think so. Or was it like, yeah, go for it.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Well, the beginning of the story is, um, so, you know, I was a scripted actress for years. And then we had four kids in seven years and we moved, we kept moving back and forth between Orange County and LA. So I had a show picked up. We moved back to LA. I canceled. We moved back to.

• 39:01Speaker 05

  So you were still acting while you had kids?

• 39:03Speaker 01

  At the beginning.

• 39:04Speaker 05

  The beginning. Okay, got it.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  And then, you know, and then I was doing a pilot, whatever. My last like series regular gig got canceled right before I had the twins.

• 39:12Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  But, you know, I'd do a pilot. I, we'd go up to LA, wouldn't get picked up. We'd go back to Newport. So we were really going back and forth. And then we had to dig in at some point. And I didn't have a show. I, you know, the kids were little, so they had to be in school at some point. So we decided to move to Newport Beach where his practice was, and it was very difficult. You know, anyway, how isolating motherhood can be, especially with little kids. And there was no content creation at that time. There was no way, there was no social media. There was no way to create content. There was none of that.

• 39:49Speaker 05

  And you're such an artist. So that's hard to probably sit at home and raise kids without any creative outlet, right?

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Very depressing. And so when the twins were like seven.

• 40:00Speaker 05

  And Ace, my youngest, was nine months old. We had been pitching-

• 40:04Speaker 04

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• 40:57Speaker 01

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• 44:26Speaker 05

  A show about opening a restaurant, me and some girlfriends, and we were taking meetings and doing all the things. And one of the places we went to was Evolution, who produced Real Housewives. And Terry had kind of set the whole thing up, and he was helping us. And Alex Baskin, who's the head of 32 Flavors, who produces Housewives, Botched, a million shows. He called Terry after the meeting, and he was basically like-

• 44:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I'd pitched the show, the restaurant show with all these wives of CEOs and neurosurgeons and- And they all wanted to do a deal, all these production companies. And I said, "Well, before we sign with that one that did Extreme Makeover or whatever," I said, "Who does that house? And I looked it up online on my iPad, 4:00 in the mornings, I don't sleep," and it said, "Oh, company Evolution." So I sent them the treatment. And if you want to take a meeting, but we're going to sign a deal with somebody. And he goes, "Sure, come on in." So I drove up there, they flew in a helicopter over.

• 45:28Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  Their helicopter. And I met with them, and on the way home, he calls me, goes, I go, "So you want to do the show, right?" He goes, "I have an alternative idea for you." And he goes, "What?" And I go, "How about your wife come on The Real Housewives of Orange County as a housewife, and we'll incubate that show on there, and you can spin it off." And I thought, "That's a good idea," because the chance of a show getting picked up is really low.

• 45:53Speaker 05

  Well, also, those production companies that wanted to do a deal with us, they wanted the restaurant to be fully functioning. Okay. So we were going to have to actually, this was like me and a bunch of girlfriends, like, "We're going to open a restaurant, it'll be a show, this is great." There was no location, there was nothing.

• 46:09Speaker 03

  So-

• 46:09Speaker 05

  So that was like a big ask. This was incubating-

• 46:13Speaker 03

  On a hit show. But we didn't know what the show was, because we didn't watch- We didn't watch Real Housewives.

• 46:18Speaker 05

  We had seen Beverly Hills because of Paul Nassif.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Yes. But anyway, so I come home, and I go, "So listen." And she goes, "What?" And I go, "Is there any scenario which you would consider?" That's exactly the way I said it.

• 46:31Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  "You come on as the new housewife on Real Housewives of Orange County, and we incubate." She goes, "Absolutely not."

• 46:40Speaker 05

  No way.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  No, it was like violent.

• 46:42Speaker 05

  Because you have to understand, being an actress- You're a talent, yes. But also, at the time, actors were not on reality TV. I was the first actress that joined Housewives. Oh, wow. Now, Kyle Richards, not taking anything away from her, but she was a child actress. Right. And at the time, she wasn't working- Right. As a grown-up, right? Or even pursuing it, really. No, nothing at that point. So I joined, all right, so for me to join a show like that, you know, I thought, "This is going to be the last nail in the coffin." That was my career. You know, reality people and actors, that's not a thing, and-

• 47:15Speaker 03

  So she said, "Absolutely not." So I went in the other room, and I called Alex Baskin, and I go, "She'll do it."

• 47:20Speaker 06

  Really?

• 47:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I totally lied.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  So he signed the contract.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  Every time, so for the next two weeks, you know, they're sending a contract over. And she goes, "I'm not doing that, I'm not doing it." And we give it to a lawyer and markup, whatever, send it back, send it back, send it back.

• 47:34Speaker 05

  And all my friends are like, "Do it." That were on the restaurant, they're like, "Do it."

• 47:37Speaker 03

  And he goes, "You sure she wants to do this?" I go, "Oh, she wants to do it." So then finally, she goes to me-

• 47:44Speaker 05

  No, so what happened was, we literally did not talk for two weeks. I was not speaking to him.

• 47:49Speaker 03

  I was pissed, too, by the way. What an opportunity that was to incubate a show on this housewife show.

• 47:54Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, if you're a doctor, to be on TV is great. Huge. But for an actress, this was like probably the kiss of death for me. And what was I sacrificing to do this?

• 48:04Speaker 03

  And embarrassing back then. Now, it's the coolest thing in the world to do.

• 48:07Speaker 05

  But it's different, it wasn't like that back then. So we didn't talk for two weeks, and then finally, I go, "Fine. If you need me to do it so badly, I'll do it." And then he got scared. So he's like, "Well, let me just show you a scene." So I'm sitting, I'll never forget, like, I'm sitting at the booth in our kitchen, and he brings out this laptop, and he shows me this scene- Right. Of, you know, I don't know what season it was, first season, where the camera judge is throwing a glass of wine on this girl, Gina Keough, and Vicky's daughter's in the corner going, "I thought this was a classy party." And all this stuff is going on, and I'm laughing.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I freaked out, I go, "We shouldn't do this, this is a mistake."

• 48:45Speaker 06

  The tide has turned.

• 48:46Speaker 05

  No, he comes running back into the room, and he goes, "Why are you laughing? I thought you'd be screaming, running from the room." I go, "Oh, I get this, this is like a Christopher Guest movie, it's a satire, I could do that." She said, "That's all I needed to say, I'm in, I can do this." I'm in, I've got this.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  And so-

• 48:59Speaker 05

  Here we are 15 years later.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  I signed the contract, I'd already signed it, I actually write, and I said, "She'll do it." And there you go.

• 49:06Speaker 06

  Okay, okay.

• 49:07Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 49:09Speaker 06

  I mean, for you to do that without her permission.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:13Speaker 05

  We still laugh about it with Alex.

• 49:15Speaker 06

  A lot of relationships wouldn't be able to survive something like that. I think that would be like a, like a big fight with most relationships.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  They talk for two weeks, that's a big fight. Yeah.

• 49:23Speaker 06

  Two weeks, so you're not talking for two weeks. How do you come back to getting along? Or even maybe other arguments that you've had about that relationship advice? What would you say for people, like, when you go through, I think that would be a big thing?

• 49:37Speaker 03

  It is a big thing.

• 49:37Speaker 05

  Well, two answers.

• 49:38Speaker 06

  How do you get back to, "Okay, we love each other, and we're fine, or yeah, I don't want to take it too personal," even though that was really personal? Like, you did something behind my back?

• 49:45Speaker 05

  He's asking you essentially for, to sacrifice, you know, something really big in your life to come and like essentially sort of do something for the family. Right.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  Totally, exactly right.

• 49:57Speaker 05

  Create a business, create a brand for your family. There's been a lot of levels of conversations, sometimes arguments, and a lot of introspectiveness on my part over the last 15 years about that very question. To be honest with you, it's layered, and it sort of depends. I mean, look, you guys know, how long you two together? 20, 20 years.

• 50:21Speaker 06

  Coming on 20 years.

• 50:21Speaker 05

  All right. So when you're together, this song, you have good days and bad days. You have good years and bad years, right? I don't think he will agree with me, but I will tell you that our bad year was caught on camera.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  And we were fighting about being on the show. We weren't fighting because we had a problem because the truth is, and we were talking about this right before we went on air. But this, these shows don't ruin relationships. They just polarize what's already going on.

• 50:49Speaker 05

  Magnify it.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you have cracks or you have a terrible marriage, guess what? You can't expect to come on and, and show your best selves and it's all gonna be okay. The truth comes out.

• 51:01Speaker 03

  But we had a good marriage.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  We had a great marriage.

• 51:03Speaker 03

  That wasn't our problem on the show.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  But we were, but what our problem was on the show for me was that for Terry, this was a lark. This was so funny.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  It was hilarious.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  He's a doctor.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  I didn't care.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  He didn't care. And for me, this is like, my career is over now. And why am I doing this? And what is my family gonna say? Remember, this is 15 years ago.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Their family ragged about it.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Oh, my family was so mean about me going on the show. Oh, yeah. It was so difficult and I felt really isolated by the whole thing. And so.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  I'd walk into a scene like, ta-da, making jokes, I don't care. And she'd look at me.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 51:41Speaker 05

  How dare you be enjoying yourself?

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Because he would make jokes at my expense and he would poke at me and he thought it was really funny. And it wasn't. And I did care. And what she thought was even funnier, like she can't help herself. So I'm gonna just keep poking and poking, poking. And it just wasn't nice. Cause I felt at the time, and this is why we had this bad year, because I felt at the time, you wanted me to do this. I did this for you, for our family, for whatever. And, and now you wanna hurt me on it? Like, why are you doing that to me?

• 52:13Speaker 03

  I wasn't really hurting you. You were just extraordinarily sensitive about it.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  But you, but when you know your wife is like that, you don't do that.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, but he, I see what you were going for, Terry. You were going for like the laugh. Sometimes you're like, it's show business. Like, go with it. This is just a joke.

• 52:31Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 52:31Speaker 05

  But when you were actually like dealing with real feelings, real emotions. And you have to go home with this person. It creates a whole different dynamic.

• 52:38Speaker 06

  So how'd you guys get through that though? Was it, was it something that kept building up, building up? And then you finally popped and said, yeah, yeah. Was it an argument like that or did it come to a?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  It came to a head because there was a scene or two that had to do with my career. And they, you know, they wanted me to film with my agent. And then we were having, and he, look, he can't even stop laughing.

• 53:01Speaker 03

  It's like the funniest scene we've ever done, by the way. Come on.

• 53:05Speaker 05

  Remind me of the scene. Remind me of the scene.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  By the way, I'm still mad about it. Because can you imagine making this big sacrifice? And then maybe there's a moment where, you know, people at home can see you for the career you've had.

• 53:20Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Because the girls on the show made fun of it.

• 53:22Speaker 05

  Oh, I remember this.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  You're not Angelina Jolie.

• 53:25Speaker 05

  They demean it, right?

• 53:26Speaker 01

  They wanted to put it down. And so I thought, okay, well, maybe I can use the platform and like,

• 53:30Speaker 05

  Show them that I'm talented.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  And also get some action back, right? And he came on and he made such, made jokes of everything. And so that's what they.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Not at your expense, though. Never.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Right. But made jokes about, anyway, that scene became about this. And him making jokes as opposed to what I, what would have been something nice for me. And then there, and then it came to a head because this was all in the same season. We went out to dinner and we were having like just a really easy conversation about the kids. And I was saying, look, I'm gonna go up to LA more and start auditioning again. And he was like ragging at me like, well, what about the kids? And how are you gonna do this? And how are you gonna do that? He didn't mean any of it. But again, I,

• 54:12Speaker 05

  Right.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  You know, maybe good TV? I don't know. And then we got in the car and we got into such a big fight.

• 54:17Speaker 05

  Right.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  And I finally said to him, I go, look, I am not willing to sacrifice our marriage for this show. And he was so much more invested in doing this than I was. And I was like, so we either figure it out or we're done with the show.

• 54:32Speaker 05

  Yeah. And of all the things to sort of go in, the, the timing of it, for him to find those jokes in that particular moment of your life where like that is by far the most sensitive area of your.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  It's just so not nice.

• 54:44Speaker 05

  Career, your life.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Even to this day, 15 years later, something will come up and, and the girls are just relentless.

• 54:53Speaker 05

  Still to this day?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Still to this day, even two episodes ago, Vicky was like, is she, um, did she get all of her money from her Emmy award winning acting career?

• 55:04Speaker 05

  I cannot.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  I can't. And then I'll run into people, like I saw Uzua Duba, you know, like a few months ago. And I see her and I, I didn't know her. I'm such a big fan. And my daughter wanted to meet her. And so we go up to say hi. And she's like, hi. She goes, oh my God, Heather. She's like, I hate when those girls talk about you and you're such a talented actress and blah blah. And like, that always makes me feel great. You know, I love that. But it's tough. It's tough.

• 55:28Speaker 06

  How do you guys, you said you had a big argument, big fight?

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:32Speaker 06

  How does, how does that go usually when you guys get in these arguments? Is there certain rules that you guys have?

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good question.

• 55:38Speaker 06

  Certain lines you don't cross?

• 55:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 55:41Speaker 06

  How do you guys treat your fights?

• 55:42Speaker 03

  Well, I'm sure you're very different.

• 55:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, everybody's different on this.

• 55:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, everyone.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  But we, I have a thing where we'll fight and I'm like, maybe two minutes later, maybe two hours later, I don't even remember the fight, no matter how bad it was. I'm so over it.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  No, it's not. It's infuriating.

• 56:00Speaker 05

  Oh, that's funny. I'm so glad that he doesn't remember half the time. I get away with murder.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  That's so good.

• 56:07Speaker 05

  I mean, like, I could be awful, awful Heather. And he is like.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  What could you possibly do that's so bad?

• 56:13Speaker 05

  You know, perimenopause and teenagers go on all at the same time. And it is.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  That doesn't count.

• 56:18Speaker 05

  That pause, he called it.

• 56:19Speaker 06

  A minute pauses.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  It's not fun.

• 56:22Speaker 06

  But so you guys have certain rules, like rules around that? I wanna hear like, how do you guys fight?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  We're gonna tell you, but I will tell you, it has changed over the years.

• 56:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  And we get better. So, and the rules change over the years, don't you think?

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Yes. So my thing was, you know, I was over it within an hour or two. And certainly by the morning, she had like a two week process.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Two weeks?

• 56:46Speaker 03

  Where we have to like go back to court and relitigate it.

• 56:49Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  Say, uh, the defendant, please rise. You know, I'm like, and.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Oh, please. By the way, he's a medical legal expert for the state of California. He is the most difficult person to argue with ever. He's never wrong. And even if he's wrong, he's right. So.

• 57:07Speaker 03

  So.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  He's a very good arguer.

• 57:08Speaker 03

  And then, you know, so she doesn't wanna talk for a few days. She's mad. And now we have to relitigate it. We have to go through the whole thing again. And then she has to admonish me and go through the whole fight again. Where it's like, like, for me, it's over. It just never happened.

• 57:20Speaker 05

  Right.

• 57:20Speaker 03

  Let's move on. Unless it's something that's structurally, fundamentally, super serious that you have to work on.

• 57:26Speaker 05

  Right.

• 57:27Speaker 03

  Where, and most of the fights were not, you know? And then.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  I was young.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  So we learned through trial and error, we have these sort of things that we have established that we don't do, that we know are patterns we used to fall into, that are very difficult to get out. For example, she never wanted to go to, she wanted to go to, never wanted to go sleep mad. Go to sleep mad. Now they said, don't want to sleep mad. My rule is go to sleep mad.

• 57:53Speaker 06

  Go to sleep mad.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Which I agree with.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Don't work it out. Cause you're not gonna work it out acutely.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Especially if there's alcohol on board. It's a bad plan.

• 58:00Speaker 05

  You are right about that.

• 58:01Speaker 03

  If there's any alcohol, don't argue at all. Don't try to figure it out. Go to sleep mad.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Stick a pin in it.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  Figure it out. It's like, if you have a super important decision to make in your lives, the best thing to do is get two nights of sleep before you make the decision. If you make it just while it's in front of you acutely, you're gonna make a decision that may be too emotionally based. It may be the wrong decision. Wait, cause you'll have a different feeling about it when a lot of the emotionality wears off in two days.

• 58:27Speaker 05

  That's great advice.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  And you know what I will do? I will go on my notes app and I will write down exactly how I feel about it. And then the next day, I'll just look it back at again and be like, do I care? Is it important?

• 58:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Is this, is this a structural issue? Like what are, what needs, and if I don't, I mean, listen, I mean, from 30 years ago to now, we could argue about something. We don't argue very much, honestly. But if we get into a little argument about something, the next day we're like, yeah, yeah, we're good. That's fine.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  Which is the way I was back then.

• 58:56Speaker 05

  Right.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  But listen, 30 years ago.

• 58:59Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  We were much younger. I mean, you know, like, think about yourself in your, as women in our twenties.

• 59:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Remember how something would like fire you up and it would be so important? How dare they? And I can't believe, and how did this happen? I mean, now I'm like, whatever. And so I think back then, I wanted to argue. I wanted to hold on to it. I wanted to litigate. Terry would do a thing. I felt he would cross lines that I didn't think were appropriate when we were arguing. And cut to over the years, how we have taught each other and bent to each other in the best way possible.

• 59:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  To like, the, like what he's saying about going to sleep mad. He's totally right about that. Go to sleep mad. I never believed that. But I went that way towards him on that part of the argument. And he came towards me on other things. And he will, cause his inclination when we were younger to be, I walk away, walk away, walk away. I don't wanna deal with this. This is like a tomorrow, you know? Walk away. But there are some things that have to be worked out. And he's so much better at that.

• 1:00:08Speaker 05

  So you went from being like an avoidant, right?

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. And the cooler heads will prevail kind of vibe. Like, this is not the right time. We've got blood alcohol levels of point oh six, point oh eight.

• 1:00:18Speaker 05

  Alcohol.

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  You, you can't argue when you have alcohol. You can't argue when you're sleep deprived. You can't argue in the heat of the battle. And certainly you can't argue at Friday night at midnight. That is not the time to work it out. Okay?

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  He usually says why I am.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  I used to say, I say, oh, I say, oh, it's Friday 1 a.m. And this is when you wanna start working this out. I go, how many times are we gonna do this? You can't work it out Friday night at 1 a.m.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  But I think the important takeaway is you have to grow and evolve together.

• 1:00:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  And so you may have very different fighting styles.

• 1:00:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Because we all have our own feelings about what to do, how to do it, how to work things out. And you gotta figure it out. Like, there was one time in our lives that we were hiking. And I realized, this is a good thing. You know what? Leave it on the trail. So we started doing this thing, this was like probably a five year period of time, where if we were upset about something, one of us, both of us, whatever, we would go for a hike. And it would be like, we're starting this hike, we're ending it there. And wherever we're at there, it's left on this trail. We're not bringing it off. And there is something very interesting. Instead of standing and arguing with someone to be expending energy by walking, hiking, moving your body.

• 1:01:35Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  So that it's not intensely focused at the other person. It really relaxes things.

• 1:01:41Speaker 03

  Well, it's the opposite of the Friday.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 03

  It's the opposite of the Friday night with alcohol one a.m. It's Tuesday at two P. M. And you're exercising, you have endorphins.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  And it's the light of day and there's zero going on in your bloodstream.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  Oxygen going through your blood.

• 1:01:58Speaker 06

  I love this. I love this. Take a hike.

• 1:02:00Speaker 03

  Take a hike.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Literally, literally, take a hike. It's the best thing.

• 1:02:04Speaker 03

  It's hard to stay mad and to spin out when you're hiking.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Also, you're walking next to each other facing front. Because there's a lot of people that say like argue in the car. I think that's dangerous. I wouldn't do that. But when you're hiking or walking, you're next to each other. So you're in proximity.

• 1:02:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  But you're both facing forwards. So again, it takes some of the intensity out of it.

• 1:02:25Speaker 05

  I liked that. Our biggest arguments are actually in the car, unfortunately. I'm a horrible passenger. But that's just a whole other Oprah. Um, yeah, in the world. I it's wild.

• 1:02:35Speaker 06

  Shouldn't drive the freeway. Anyway.

• 1:02:37Speaker 03

  The problem within the car is.

• 1:02:39Speaker 05

  Ninety year old woman. I have, I don't know what happened to me in my old age. But have you noticed like anxieties pop up later in life rather than younger? And so I just had all this like PTSD from, I don't know, anything and everything that happened. I'm like, I can't drive on the freeway anymore. It terrifies me.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  But you know what? Sometimes you have to force yourself because like I don't like traveling by myself. And when I was in, I had to go to New York by myself for one day.

• 1:02:58Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  And there I was like, it was dumb for him to come. It was literally a 24 hour.

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• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Around and I'm by myself and I'm, and I had this feeling like, should I have a greeter? Do I need, do I need someone to walk with me? And then I was like, no, you don't. You are fine.

• 1:07:37Speaker 05

  You're a big girl.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  But also, I mean, like, honestly, I've got the driver that I've had for 25 years. Like, I know what I have people, but I just like being on the plane by myself. I started doing that. I'm like, don't do it.

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  For me, arguing.

• 1:07:50Speaker 05

  That happens.

• 1:07:50Speaker 03

  Arguing the car is a little bit of a Friday night at one a.m. because you can't leave.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  It's not gonna stop. You're locked in.

• 1:07:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's kind of maybe the worst place to argue when you think about it.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Speaker 05

  There's no way. No way out.

• 1:08:02Speaker 03

  No way out.

• 1:08:03Speaker 05

  Oh, uncomfortable.

• 1:08:04Speaker 06

  And probably on a hike, too. Does it, other people are there, right?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  No, you know, you don't go to Runyon Canyon, maybe where TMZ is and they were like, we saw Toby and Tony arguing.

• 1:08:17Speaker 06

  Well, maybe I'm saying because people are there that you won't, you can't argue because you don't want to embarrass yourself.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  You just keep it down while they're walking by.

• 1:08:25Speaker 05

  You know, I can talk through my teeth.

• 1:08:27Speaker 06

  Oh, you.

• 1:08:28Speaker 05

  Just like this.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  You pause it a little bit, but it's such.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  You talk through your teeth.

• 1:08:31Speaker 05

  Talk through my teeth just like that.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  I do this.

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  She does this.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  My kids, my kids call it the jaw.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Yes. Uh oh.

• 1:08:38Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 1:08:39Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, you know, when she's when something's up, it's like, uh oh.

• 1:08:42Speaker 06

  How do you not laugh when she does that though?

• 1:08:44Speaker 03

  We, we look at each other, we go, uh oh. But the problem is if she sees us look at each other like mom food and she gets mad and then comes out further.

• 1:08:53Speaker 05

  Makes it even worse. Oh, my gosh. Okay, on to like a more fun topic.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:58Speaker 05

  What do you guys to keep, do to keep your relationship spicy? I mean, are you scheduling sex? Is this like a regular, you're still as hot and heavy as ever before is? Have you gone through bouts of, you know, dry spells for years? I mean, years.

• 1:09:14Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:09:15Speaker 05

  It's been a long, it's been a long, we know what this is like. It's been 20 years.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Years. We haven't had years of a dry spell. No, although I honestly, we have four kids, three were IVF and the last one was like, oh, natural. That was a dry spell. I don't know how that happened.

• 1:09:31Speaker 05

  Oh, because that sperm was ready.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  That, I don't know. Isn't that weird?

• 1:09:35Speaker 03

  Impregnate.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So bizarre. I mean, look, exactly what we were talking about with good years and bad years, good days. I think sex is the same way. We will, I mean, we had a trip, not to be TMI, but we had a trip.

• 1:09:48Speaker 03

  Recently.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Not the Venice trip. Where did we go before that? Somewhere before that. And it was like, I mean, we were having sex like we were, you know. Well, hotel sex is the best anyway. Yeah, it's, there's something about being away, private, whatever. But we had this one trip that it was like nonstop and we were like having the best time.

• 1:10:07Speaker 05

  That's so fun.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  So we have trips like that. We have trips where like, I don't know. No, usually on vacations. I think we're a little looser. But I think with us, and you answer for yourself, but I think with us, if we are going through a period of time where we're not having a lot of sex, we, one of us will say to the other, uh, hello, sexy time. What's going on? You do have to schedule it because I think in the way like work begets work.

• 1:10:32Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  I think sex begets sex because you can get into a rut and then you have sex and you're like, wait, that's so fun. Why aren't we doing more of it?

• 1:10:40Speaker 05

  I'm always like, why aren't we doing this every day?

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:10:43Speaker 05

  It's like you forget.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  I mean, not every day, Toby, but like, I'm tired, but like more often.

• 1:10:49Speaker 05

  I'm tired. I know, but we, you can all of a, all of a sudden wake up in a marriage. And it could have been like two weeks, three weeks, and you're like, what, what have we been doing? You're just so exhausted or life gets you or you're just going through life. And so it is important, I think, I mean, not necessarily to schedule it, but to like make the time.

• 1:11:08Speaker 06

  No question.

• 1:11:09Speaker 05

  Right? No matter what.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And there's that whole prophecy of like prophecy? No. There's that way of thinking of like fuck first. Have you heard that?

• 1:11:17Speaker 05

  Oh, no, tell me.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. So sometimes it's better to have sex before you go out.

• 1:11:20Speaker 05

  Oh, yes, we do that. We do that. We do that.

• 1:11:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think that sometimes that's, yeah, because that's, that's the only way it's gonna happen.

• 1:11:26Speaker 05

  This fool gets tired real fast at night. And I know.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  And then he eats too much.

• 1:11:32Speaker 06

  Eat too much. You got a couple of drinks in you.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  And by the way, that is impossible.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  I remember we were, one night we're at Craig's with two other couples and we were just like very, I don't know why we were very like touchy feely and one, one of the wives is like, oh, someone's getting lucky tonight, whatever. I'm like, uh huh, in the car on the way home, this one is snoring.

• 1:11:50Speaker 06

  Stop.

• 1:11:51Speaker 05

  And did you take a video and send it to him?

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  I didn't, but I should have.

• 1:11:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I have an eating disorder. Sometimes I'll go home full, feeling sick to my stomach and still continue to eat in the pantry. So that's why the GLP one drugs have been very good for me.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Yes, but that's why you have sex first. It's really, it's a great plan.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  And then you go into like your evening out so happy.

• 1:12:14Speaker 05

  Oh, we do it right out of the shower before we go out, like, cause I'm getting ready and my makeup's like fresh, but I'm like, can't touch something.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  No, you're like pretty woman.

• 1:12:23Speaker 03

  Don't touch the hair.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  I don't kiss, I don't kiss on the mouth.

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  It's like Vinnie Bobbrea, don't touch the hair.

• 1:12:32Speaker 05

  Okay, well, speaking of, you know, looks and being gorgeous and all of those things, looks, look maxing.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

  Oh, is that amazing?

• 1:12:40Speaker 05

  Look maxing is all the rage these days.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  Clavicular.

• 1:12:43Speaker 05

  My husband, for my husband who has no idea about anything ever, because he's never on social media.

• 1:12:48Speaker 03

  Good for you.

• 1:12:48Speaker 05

  Can you explain to him a little bit, Terry, about what look maxing is?

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  So there's this thing, looks maxing it's called, where it basically started out with men between the ages of like 12 and 22. And it's the idea that your sexual market value is everything in life. How attractive you are to the other sex or to somebody you want to have sex with is everything, everything else is irrelevant. It's your looks that determine your value. So these kids, these boys do these things which include pharmaceuticals, illegal things, surgical things, and made up science things like taking a hammer and smashing themselves in the face. They call it bone smashing to try to remodel the shape of their facial skeleton.

• 1:13:36Speaker 05

  Look at his face.

• 1:13:37Speaker 06

  What the hell are we talking about?

• 1:13:37Speaker 03

  It's absurd. And by the way, it's huge, okay? And the, the, the big champion of this is this goofy guy named Clavicular. Okay, they call him Clav, and he's got like 50 million followers or something. He's making millions a month. But anyway, it's the idea that your value is only related to your appearance, period. So it's obviously a really bad message, particularly for men, because if you think about it, yeah, when you're really young, that's, women are really interested in guys look a certain way, but once you get past that, they're much more interested in guys they respect, they think can provide security, you know?

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  So the message is just wrong, and most of the messages to how you make yourself look better in the looks maxing world is wrong also. So it doesn't work on multiple levels, but these kids, these boys take testosterone, starting at age 12.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Is that safe?

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  No, it makes you infertile.

• 1:14:38Speaker 05

  Whoa.

• 1:14:38Speaker 03

  It stunts your growth. It's just, you'll lose your hair, even if you weren't meant to lose your hair. So that's a perfect example of something they do that's completely wrong. But the whole concept of looks maxing is now expanded beyond that to maybe, maybe you're talking about more general, what could you do to look your best?

• 1:14:57Speaker 05

  Right, yeah.

• 1:14:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, so there's lots of things, you know.

• 1:14:59Speaker 05

  There's levels.

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  There's levels, you know? A lot of it has to do, you know, Kris Jenner made the early facelift a thing and talking about it's now finally okay to talk about, although still it's not okay to talk about liposuction. You don't see any of them admitting to, not them, the cardiac.

• 1:15:13Speaker 05

  Right, but anyone.

• 1:15:14Speaker 03

  Anyone saying, yeah, it's some liposuction. Still, that's not okay.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's like a stigma when it comes to lipo and even the GLP ones, like I, people are so like nervous to talk about being on a GLP one. I'm like, in my day, we smoked cigarettes, drank Diet Coke.

• 1:15:30Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  And took Dexatrim.

• 1:15:32Speaker 05

  I took Zenadren.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:34Speaker 05

  Awful.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Why was that okay? Wouldn't you rather have had a GLP one back then?

• 1:15:38Speaker 05

  Are you kidding me?

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Please.

• 1:15:39Speaker 05

  Cause for some reason along the way, somebody told everyone that there wasn't enough to go around. But I think it's safe to say now, we have enough to go around.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:15:48Speaker 05

  No one is deprived of, like, their diabetic medications.

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:15:52Speaker 05

  Right? So like.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  But also people see it as cheating.

• 1:15:56Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:15:57Speaker 03

  I think that's gotten a lot less.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  But don't you think that's why people are scared to admit that? I think it's the same thing with liposuction. I think people see it as cheating.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it's, it's evolved to a very weird place right now where not only are people on the GLP ones, but they're taking ones that may get FDA approved in the future. The classic one, which you may or may not have heard of called Retta, Retta True Tide.

• 1:16:19Speaker 05

  I have heard of that, where you're supposed to keep your muscle.

• 1:16:22Speaker 03

  Yes, theoretically. The problem is, it's not available. Eli Lilly hasn't put it out yet. It isn't FDA approved, but the compounding pharmacies are now making this totally illegal drug that, to be honest with you, we're all taking, that is extraordinarily effective and fully illegal. And who knows if it's the real thing or it has adulterants in it.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  I just saw there's lawsuits, though.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  Well, Eli Lilly is an, this is gonna be their first trillion dollar drug. This drug is a miracle.

• 1:16:50Speaker 05

  Holy moly. It's, it's the wild, wild west out there.

• 1:16:52Speaker 03

  It is. And so that, that, you know, so that's the typical peptide that is out there in an unapproved manner. You know, the peptides that are approved, everyone's okay with them. Insulin, growth hormone, semaglutin, I mean, Ozempic, Monjaro, Zepbound. But then there's all the other ones that you may or may not have heard of.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Are you guys into peptides?

• 1:17:12Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:17:13Speaker 05

  I want to be.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  You don't take any peptides?

• 1:17:15Speaker 05

  I take.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  NAD, glutathione, nothing?

• 1:17:17Speaker 03

  BPC 157, TB 500.

• 1:17:20Speaker 05

  Which ones to take? We need to.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  We've tried a bunch of them.

• 1:17:23Speaker 05

  Well, I need, I need to get, after this, I need to get a whole download.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll tell you.

• 1:17:27Speaker 06

  Is this why you're asking this question?

• 1:17:29Speaker 05

  Yes, I want to know all the things to know.

• 1:17:30Speaker 03

  Not only that, this is the hottest topic in health and wellness.

• 1:17:34Speaker 05

  He's in weight manage, management. He helps people like with, you know, obesity and all these things. And it's like, there's a right way to do it and there's a wrong way to do it.

• 1:17:41Speaker 03

  There is, there is a way, right. The problem is, is that these peptides, none of them are FDA approved.

• 1:17:46Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:17:46Speaker 03

  And no one really knows how effective they are, because there's no human studies for any of the unapproved peptides. Yet, they're extraordinarily popular and getting bigger every single day. So these compounding pharmacies are sort of making them on the side. And people are sort of, you can go on TikTok shop live right now and buy a peptide from some gym bro who's going, yeah, this will make you ripped, this will give you energy. And, and where does it come from? Oh, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, dude. It's from China.

• 1:18:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  And who knows what's in it? I mean, if you think about it, you get, I don't do cocaine, okay? But kids now, cocaine is in.

• 1:18:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Speaker 03

  It's very in.

• 1:18:26Speaker 05

  Which is crazy with fentanyl.

• 1:18:27Speaker 03

  Cocaine now, in our day, maybe not your day, in my day, cocaine was cocaine. That was it. It might have been cut with baby powder.

• 1:18:34Speaker 05

  It was the poor Colombian, you know?

• 1:18:36Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:18:36Speaker 05

  Back in the eighties.

• 1:18:37Speaker 03

  I know. Totally, right? But anyway.

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  But there was no, there was no fentanyl.

• 1:18:42Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  The worst, the worst thing that happened was it wouldn't be a lot of coke.

• 1:18:47Speaker 03

  It wouldn't be very good.

• 1:18:48Speaker 05

  It wouldn't work.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Speaker 03

  Right. Now, it kill you, right? Well, what point do the Chinese makers, you know, put fentanyl in the NAD, in the Motsi, in the other drug, you know? So it's a very sketchy field right now. It's very big. And, you know, everybody's sort of interested in this, and we do peptides. We try to, I've tried them all.

• 1:19:11Speaker 05

  But it's safe to say this is an exciting time in, in medical history.

• 1:19:15Speaker 03

  The most exciting time in the history of humanity, because, because of AI and all of this, we're on the cusp of being able to reverse aging.

• 1:19:25Speaker 03

  I always say, whoever's alive is very lucky, because your chances of staying alive a lot longer is hugely maximized.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  How long do you want to live?

• 1:19:32Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm not one of those people that wants to live forever either.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Neither.

• 1:19:35Speaker 06

  How much longer do you gotta live before you can live another 60, 70 years?

• 1:19:40Speaker 03

  I think there's this thing called escape, longevity, escape velocity, which refers to the fact that soon, we're gonna have things that allow you to be, to take them, that for every year you're alive, you get another two years.

• 1:19:53Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:19:54Speaker 03

  So, I mean, it's really a question of what we call health span, not lifespan, but health span. Health span, lifespan refers to when do you die? Health span refers to how long are you healthy? And can enjoy life as is, before you start to become frail and sick.

• 1:20:10Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:20:10Speaker 03

  You know, those last four years where you're sick.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  We don't want those years.

• 1:20:13Speaker 03

  Nobody wants those. But if you're healthy and happy and strong and feel great, you want as many of those as you can.

• 1:20:18Speaker 05

  I just want to keel over.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  I want to go to sleep and then just not wake up. But I don't want to be 110.

• 1:20:25Speaker 05

  No, thank you.

• 1:20:25Speaker 03

  So I think we're on the cusp of age reversal. I think it's gonna happen in the next one to four years. There will be drugs that will reverse aging, that will make gray hair, black hair.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Tightening one.

• 1:20:37Speaker 05

  The Yamanaka.

• 1:20:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:20:38Speaker 05

  Heard about that?

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  What's Yamanaka?

• 1:20:40Speaker 05

  The Yamanaka is, is the age reversing, uh.

• 1:20:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, Yamanaka factors. So, so there, for example.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  Do you have those?

• 1:20:49Speaker 05

  Send them to me right now.

• 1:20:50Speaker 03

  So there's a drug.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  Why are you holding out on me?

• 1:20:52Speaker 03

  There's an FDA approved drug that you can inject one time, and it lowers your cholesterol permanently.

• 1:20:58Speaker 05

  Holy cow.

• 1:20:58Speaker 03

  Because it changes the liver cells that make cholesterol in your body, um, changes their DNA. Okay, well, what if I told you that in the future, there'll be a drug you take one time or a few times, and it changes the DNA of the collagen producing cells? So that as opposed to making collagen the way you do it in your 60s, you make collagen the way you did in your 20s. And all of a sudden, the new collagen is like.

• 1:21:23Speaker 05

  Death becomes her.

• 1:21:24Speaker 03

  It's like tighter.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  We'll take it.

• 1:21:27Speaker 03

  Give it to me. Well, that's, I think that kind of thing, certainly we're gonna solve cancer, we're gonna solve cardiovascular disease, diabetes. That's gonna come, certainly in your lifetimes, hopefully in mine, but in the next few years, you're gonna see some major breakthroughs.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  So as an athlete, does it bother you to hear all this stuff? Like, what, do you take?

• 1:21:45Speaker 05

  Good question.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Do you take any supplements? Do you creatine?

• 1:21:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, I do the creatine, the fish oil, the vitamin D, magnesium.

• 1:21:53Speaker 05

  You did NAD for a long time.

• 1:21:54Speaker 06

  Uh, I did the NAD.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  I didn't like it.

• 1:21:56Speaker 06

  I didn't feel any, I didn't feel any different. So I was like, all right, I did for seven months.

• 1:22:01Speaker 03

  That's the problem with most peptides. I'm not sure they do anything.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  So do you feel?

• 1:22:04Speaker 06

  So that's a peptide?

• 1:22:06Speaker 03

  It actually, so it actually is not, you know, technically speaking, a peptide, but it's definitely in the peptide category where it's not FDA approved. And you're, and you don't know what dose, some dude is telling you what dose to take, right? It's not like you went to and they go, oh, this study showed NAD at this level done intravenously gives you this effect over this period of time. Those studies don't exist, but you took it. That's exactly where peptides is right now.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  So, so when you hear like people are taking peptides to try to lose weight, build muscle, do. There's pictures of frogs that are shredded with this next something that's gonna come out.

• 1:22:40Speaker 05

  Shredded frogs.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Shredded frogs. So meaning, someone could just do an injection and be shredded. Like, what does that, how do you feel about that?

• 1:22:49Speaker 06

  I don't care.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  You don't care?

• 1:22:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:22:52Speaker 05

  Tony's not one of those, Tony's not like your friends on The Housewives who like, don't like to see the other ones succeed or do well or better than them, okay?

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Speaker 05

  He is like, go get it, boy. Like, you wanna, go run it back. Like, have, you know, get it. If somebody comes after him and breaks his, you know, all-time record, he's like, get it.

• 1:23:11Speaker 06

  I don't give a shit about that.

• 1:23:12Speaker 05

  No, you have a good attitude about it. It's good.

• 1:23:13Speaker 06

  So, my question is about all this stuff. What about the brain? You know, as a football player, CT, all that type of stuff that we're susceptible to. And she makes fun of me sometimes. She'll be like, you have CT. Right. Anytime I forget one thing, CT, it's coming, it's coming. But, how do they do that, though? Let's say, all these people are gonna be looking like they're thirty-five or younger.

• 1:23:37Speaker 03

  Same thing.

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  What do you do with the brain?

• 1:23:38Speaker 03

  They have peptides for that.

• 1:23:39Speaker 06

  They have for Alzheimer's and dementia and all that stuff. They can reverse that now.

• 1:23:44Speaker 03

  No, but I think, well, we do have new medications for Alzheimer's and dementia, but I do think we will solve that.

• 1:23:52Speaker 06

  I hope so, because people are gonna be looking sexy, but they're gonna be like old people, not.

• 1:23:56Speaker 05

  You're gonna be like, you're hot, but I don't remember who you are. My organs are one thousand, but my skin, I look amazing.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  It's totally death by comes or you're.

• 1:24:04Speaker 03

  Right. I look amazing, but what's my wife's name?

• 1:24:08Speaker 05

  Where am I? Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

• 1:24:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, that, I think, will come. Those cures for dementia will come before the cures for collagen all over your body. That will come for sure.

• 1:24:19Speaker 06

  Okay, so you're telling me a guy, me, so, let's say I'm able, knock on wood, I make it another ten years when all this stuff is here. And I can reverse my aging. I will be able to go back and play football again, go play basketball again. If Michael Jordan's still alive, hey, Michael, let's go. Let's see who's better, you or LeBron. Let's put you guys against each other.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  Maybe not in our lifetimes, that. I think, you know, fifty years from now, a football player will probably be able to play much longer than they could have before.

• 1:24:46Speaker 06

  So that means like Tom Brady's gonna play sixty years in the NFL.

• 1:24:49Speaker 05

  Think of all the money he's made. Heather, you've gotten into, you know, you've taken this fancy pants moniker and you really like ran with it, you know, which I love, by the way. I love your fanciness. You've created a Substack. Can you tell us a little bit about?

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, are you on Substack?

• 1:25:03Speaker 05

  I am literally the last person not to be on Substack.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  You have to be on Substack. You need your own Substack. I will follow you. And it is so cool. It's, Substack is sort of like if Instagram and Pinterest and Twitter had a baby.

• 1:25:18Speaker 05

  Ooh, okay.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Is basically what it is. So I used to have a newsletter, years ago, and I loved it. I loved writing it. I loved doing the whole thing. And then I took a little break because I was filming, and then ChatGPT came out, and all of a sudden, everyone's got a newsletter.

• 1:25:31Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  And that was so.

• 1:25:33Speaker 05

  Everyone's a writer.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was so frustrating to me. I lost interest. But then, when Substack came around, I was like, it's more of a conversation. And there's layers to it. You can, it's a written word, it's a voice note, it's a video, it's all these different things. But it's more of a thought starter conversation that I like to have. So, I feel like I've built this big community over the years, you know, of people who, you know, wanna ask me questions as a mom, or the homes I build, or fashion, or all these different things. So I've been able to do that all in one spot. It is so incredibly fun, and I think the people on there are smart and interesting, and it's cool, and you really feel, you don't feel like you're logging on to someone's Instagram and getting the highlight reel.

• 1:26:19Speaker 05

  Okay, interesting. That's what I was gonna ask.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  You talk about real things, and, you know, successes and fails and everything.

• 1:26:25Speaker 05

  Different, as opposed to like Instagram or Facebook or anything. You get like a real peek behind the scenes. Or peek behind the curtain of someone's life, thoughts and feelings.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Even more so, like, I'll talk to you.

• 1:26:37Speaker 05

  Oh, cool, what?

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:38Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  We can have conversations. There's gonna be, we're putting in right now sort of a VIP part to the Substack, so it's called Fancy That.

• 1:26:48Speaker 05

  Ooh, yes.

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  And there's about to be this private thing, because I want to be able to have more of an even more personal conversation.

• 1:26:56Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  It's cool. You're gonna love it.

• 1:26:58Speaker 05

  That feels like so much more authentic than anything else that's out there.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  It is, and, you know, linking things that you actually really like and wear, and not just because you're doing a brand deal.

• 1:27:08Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Which I think is hard, because, look, we are all here to do well, and we do brand deals and all of that, and it's great. So grateful. I really only do products that I love. Having said that, you know, you have obligations when you have brand deals. When you're writing your Substack, or you wanna talk about, like, we were just in Italy, and someone was obsessed with this outfit I was wearing, so I did a whole thing on everything I wore in Italy. I am not, you know, I'm not representing any of those brands. I don't care, but here's they are. Go buy them. Here's a link. Enjoy.

• 1:27:42Speaker 05

  And what a fun, creative outlet.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  It's so, I'm telling you, you're gonna love it.

• 1:27:47Speaker 05

  I probably will. We're alike like that.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:49Speaker 05

  Well, you guys, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your words of wisdom, kid advice, marriage advice, relationship, and all the new things that you guys are into, teaching us all everything we need to know.

• 1:28:01Speaker 03

  Thanks for having us.

• 1:28:02Speaker 06

  I'm about to take a hike. I'm gonna get on some peptides.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've got a lot to do. And can we please schedule a dinner?

• 1:28:07Speaker 05

  I would love that.

• 1:28:08Speaker 03

  Next time you get in a fight, go tell her to take a hike.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  No, then that'll take a hike by yourself. I'm staying home.

• 1:28:15Speaker 05

  That'll go over well.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  You go hike.

• 1:28:17Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

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• 1:28:57Speaker 06

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• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  If you've been putting off car shopping because it sounds like a whole thing, I get it. Life moves quickly, and I really like when things are clear and easy. So, here's a little tip. Buying your car online on AutoTrader makes the whole process way easier. Really. Start online, then head to the dealer for a test drive, and finish wherever works best for you. Your information stays with you, and you're working with local dealers, so real people are there to help. So flexible, so convenient, so recommended. Buy your car online on AutoTrader. Really.