7 | Scary Harry

A new suspect emerges in the investigation which leads Lauren to uncover disturbing truths about her mother’s past relationships. Louise reemerges, with more alarming revelations that conflict with everything she first told Lauren. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of My Mom's Murder early and ad-free. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. This project contains conversations and information obtained over a number of years, and individual memories of events referenced and/or portrayed may differ. Any persons depicted in the project suspected of a crime are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

• 0:32Speaker 00

  By the end of 2021, I've been talking to Louise for well over a year. I realized that when she first reached out to me, I was the same age as my mom when she was pregnant with me. That gave me a unique perspective as I continued to learn more about my mother's life. She was found naked on the floor of our apartment, and I might have been in my crib nearby. I knew my mom wouldn't have let anyone in our apartment if she didn't trust them near the person she loved most: me. So, from day one, to figure out how my mom died, I've been trying to talk to other people she loved, those closest to her. I figure among that group would likely be her killer.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  I have to know them well enough to see them through her eyes, to understand their relationships, to see if they could be potential suspects. No detail I'm learning is too small. I am determined to leave no stone unturned. So, all that leads me to why I'm still talking to Louise, even though I'm reaching my breaking point with her and her lies.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  If I knew more, Lauren, I would tell you. If I knew more, I would tell you. You act like I'm holding back on something. I'm not.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  You spent her final birthday with her. You were the person whose house she went to when she left my father. You were the one who told her to go for the divorce. You were a witness in her divorce. And you never heard a thing about this motherfucker who violated a protective order against her after he committed felony assault. Come on, Louise. I was born on a day, but it wasn't fucking yesterday.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Candace DeLong, former FBI profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche. In our latest episode, we go inside the case of Krista Pike, the woman Tennessee tried to execute and failed. Listen to Killer Psyche on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Episode seven, Scary Harry.

• 3:11Speaker 00

  Before we get deeper into this conversation with Louise, I feel like I need to back up a little and talk about my mom's abusive ex-husband. I mentioned him in episode one because Louise sent me a wedding photo of him and my mom. That photo made me believe she was actually close friends with my mother.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  What's his name?

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Um.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Cutie pie with the buck teeth. Whoever she met, I forget his name.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Cutie pie with the buck teeth?

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Johnny. Johnny. Johnny was cute. He had long, he had shoulder length, wavy, black hair, brown eyes, I think. But he had buck teeth. I didn't find that appealing.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Yes, his buck teeth were what made him unappealing, not the fact that he abused my mother. In her notes from the duffel bag found in my dad's basement, my mom refers to a Scary Harry Mariano. Never heard of Harry Mariano before, but I've heard of her being married to John Mariano. So, I don't understand if he had a different legal name or something that I just don't know of. Maybe he was Johnny to everybody, but he was really a Harry?

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Sounds right.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  So, my mom referred to her ex-husband as Scary Harry, but he also went by John or Johnny. According to officials at the Adult Correctional Institution in Cranston, Rhode Island, Scary Harry was incarcerated at the time of my mom's death. So, even though we all know from true crime shows it's usually the abusive ex-husband who did it, his alibi has always seemed tight. But I do have the police records that confirm he abused her. Or he was a few years older than her, at least. But, so here's Harry. Um, October of 88, he's charged with felony domestic assault in Providence. My family actually told me once that my mom got the crap beaten out of her by some guy in Providence,

• 5:03Speaker 00

  but they never said who it was. They said it was somebody she was involved with. So, that's.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Maybe it was Johnny. Maybe it was Johnny.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  So, that's October of 88, and it's in Providence, which makes sense with where she was living. So.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Hold the police back up.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  So, July 31 of 19... I mean, January 31 of 1990, this Harry Mariano violates a protective order, and he was charged with misdemeanor in Providence. Lori files for divorce three months after that on 4/20 of 1990. A few months later, July, he gets charged with misdemeanor larceny. So, she files for divorce from a Harry Mariano on April 20, 1990. That's 16 months before I'm born. Um, two months before she dies, the divorce decision said it was pending the entry of a final judgment entered.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  So, her divorce was actually finalized on March 31 of 93, 24 days after she died.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  From what I've found out, Scary Harry and my mom met in 1987 and married on Valentine's Day, 1988, at my grandfather's house in Derry, New Hampshire. My grandpa moved there after his divorce from my grandma, who Louise calls Big Al, short for Alice.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  You know, Big Al didn't go to that wedding. You want to call that a wedding?

• 6:34Speaker 00

  She didn't go?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  No. Blueberry, do you think Big Al is gonna go to New Hampshire in her ex-husband's house?

• 6:42Speaker 00

  Oh, shit.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  With the ex-husband's wife? I'm serious.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  I know, you're right.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  No, Big Al didn't go. I don't even think her sister went. Nobody went.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  That's so.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Lori shouldn't have went.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  Okay, that's actually a valid point. So, neither my mom's mom nor her sister attended my mom's wedding to Scary Harry/John. And Louise didn't go either. So, okay, so John Mariano, the guy who Lori marries, right?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should be in the wedding picture, yeah.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Did Allison know him? Or, I mean, obviously.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Allison, hell no.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Really? Okay, so there goes that one, because I wondered if maybe she would have been involved with him or something. I don't know.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  We didn't met him. And, uh, you know, um, okay. I'm the type of person, especially where I like really friends, I ask a lot of fucking questions. I should have been a journalist.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  It's hard to understand Louise here, so for clarity, she just said, quote, "I ask a lot of fucking questions. I should have been a journalist," end quote. Louise says she questioned my mom's judgment for marrying Scary Harry. Okay, so, all right. So, the wedding happens. John's an asshole. So, she... So, you guys are best friends, but she doesn't say anything about him kicking the crap out of her, anything?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Okay, so, was she hooked up with him? I was going with Big Steen. But I left my husband in Florida. So, I came back here at my mother's. I see Lori. Like I said, me and Lori had a lot of things in common, but then there was another layer. Well, there had many layers.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  A lot of things she would do, you know. I wouldn't go. I didn't want to go. I don't, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to go to a motorcycle clubhouse. I find those people disgusting. Don't tell nobody I said it. You know what I'm saying, Lauren? She had, she had a taste, like, for the dark side. We were good friends, but there was a side of her when she would do her thing. I wasn't around her because it wasn't my forte. It wasn't my class of people. Do you know, that makes, that makes sense, right?

• 8:59Speaker 00

  That is a very long-winded way of not answering my question of why my mom wouldn't have mentioned her husband abusing her to her best friend. But Louise is judging my mom's life choices yet again, so at least she's consistent. How did she meet, um, Harry John Mariano?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  I don't know. The only thing I can, like I told you, honey, she had that apartment on, was that Friendship Street right there?

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  It's right behind the YMCA. And like I told you, the YMCA, times, uh, in their cafeteria, you can call it. There are 99 vending machines, sandwiches in there, all chips, sodas, you can get hot coffee. You know what I mean?

• 9:43Speaker 00

  That's how she met him?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  And she used to go in there because you could, you know, it's two blocks from her house. You could do whatever she wanted, you know, whatever.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  So, it sounds like my mom met Scary Harry at the YMCA near her apartment, where she'd go for snacks.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  And I, uh, she did have a brother.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Brother's very handsome, tall, kind of baldy, though, at the time. And he was very handsome.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Was it Joey?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah. Really nice kid to talk to, you know?

• 10:13Speaker 00

  From my mom's notes and letters, I know that she bailed Scary Harry out of jail at one point, but then he ends up back in maximum-security prison shortly after that. Did you know she was supposed to testify against Mariano? I discuss Harry's criminal record with Louise.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Well, that's every time you go for a divorce, right?

• 10:32Speaker 00

  No, she, um, it was, it was... He wrote her a letter, and he said, um, it was. Like, he was in jail and he was like, oh, I was surprised you get your letter. I have the letter Harry sends my mother from prison dated October 19th, 1988. And then he was saying how it's all up to you now, what happens next. They're gonna like, he said something like they're gonna put him away for like, two years if she testified against him, but if she didn't, he was gonna get out. And

• 11:06Speaker 01

  He probably beat the shit out of her at the Roman house, whatever.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  That's what I thought because I remembered, um, my adopted dad told me she'd gotten beaten up by some guy. And he had something on his record for like, there was like felony assault or like domestic assault. And then he had, um, he violated a protective order and I wondered if it was her.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Who knows? Trash. Fucking trash.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  So awful.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  So trash. I told her, I said, what the fuck are you married it for? He has nothing, no car, no license, nobody broke.

• 11:47Speaker 00

  In my research, I find that scary Harry was in trouble with the law a number of times. On October 11th, 1988, the Providence Journal reports that Harry is, quote, "Wanted by one socket police on charges of leaving the scene of an accident, driving on a suspended license and failure to pay a fine for a traffic offense." He was arrested at his home after his wife, Lori Mariano, summoned police to report he had beat her about 1:20 a.m. on Saturday, police said. Mariano was also charged with assault, police said. Just to be clear, Lori Mariano is my mom. She changed her name when she married Harry.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Then, in January of 1990, Scary Harry violates a protective order and is charged with a misdemeanor. And that summer, he's charged with misdemeanor larceny. So it seems this dude was called scary for a reason.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  It hurts to think about what my mom endured. But it also feels familiar. It took me a lot of work in therapy to understand my own unhealthy patterns in relationships. My mom, like me, came from a somewhat dysfunctional home. While I dealt with her death at an early age and more, she dealt with her parents divorcing, her mom, her primary caregiver, working all the time, and grew up hoping to find the love she gave so freely. She didn't know that she was enough or that she deserved better in relationships. Something those of us who experience trauma tend to believe. I wonder, if my mom had gotten the chance to live, would she have found her own worth?

• 13:30Speaker 00

  For me, at least, there was a turning point. At the end of 2015, two days before Christmas, my beloved Aunt Charlotte is diagnosed with leukemia. My partner at the time wasn't really there for me. I realized that if someone couldn't be with me on my worst days, they didn't deserve me on my best ones.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Charlotte's diagnosis reminded me life was too short to spend any time on people who weren't all in about me. She was my adopted aunt and I had some wonderful memories with her. Some were captured in home movies that I saved.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  You got like that cowboy suit? And you sneak us? Go back up a little bit.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  No, you don't have to keep saying cheese.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  So I was devastated when Charlotte passed away in May of 2016. She was night and day for my Aunt Allison.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  I kept journals ever since I was a preteen and recently I found some of them. They show pretty clearly just how different my life with Charlotte was from my life with Allison. One entry is dated March 16, 2003. I was almost 12 years old. I wrote, "All my friends and family are okay. Well, except my mom." To clarify, that's what I called Allison to make my adopted dad, Richard, happy. I continued calling her mom until my dad died in 2019. Back to my journal. "It seems like all she tries to do is scream at me and make me feel bad. She threatened to call DCYF again to keep me away from my loving dad.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  I don't want that. I love my dad so much and I hate to say it, more than mom." Wait, I take it back. Mom's just sick. She's been that way ever since Grandma died. Now that I'm older, she's gotten worse or better or both. I mean, sometimes she's really mean and sometimes she's sort of loving, so I really can't say. I just wish she'd change. Sometimes I wonder what it's like to have a real mom.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  The next entry is from a new journal I was just starting on October 23rd, 2004, which was just after my 13th birthday. I write that I plan to publish the journal one day, so I'm giving myself an introduction. I guess reading it here is a little like publishing it, so maybe 13-year-old Lauren was on to something. "My name is Lauren Malloy and I'm 13. My mom died when I was two and I was taken away from my abusive father to live with my aunt and uncle. Except life isn't exactly perfect now either. My mom always yells, my house is pretty much falling apart and my financial status is depleting, and that's just one home life.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  I stay at my Aunt Charlotte's house every day, except Mondays, Tuesdays, and any day Charlotte is doing something. Her house is nice. I'm here now as I write this, sitting in my room downstairs."

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Then, in a journal dated September 9th, 2007, a few days before my 17th birthday, I write about Charlotte again. "Things between Charlotte and I are better than ever. I look forward to hanging out with her more than anyone else. I actually just wrote her a poem and letter, which I'll surprise her with one day this week. I want her to find it unexpectedly. She deserves it."

• 17:10Speaker 00

  The through line of my journals over the years is my love of having fun with my adopted dad, Richard. Whether he's taking me to a movie or Six Flags, he always spent quality time with me. Also, Charlotte imparting wisdom and encouraging me to better myself either in school or in dance class. And Allison yelling at me. It makes me a little sad to be reminded what I went through and how different my life was between my two aunts' houses.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing.

• 17:53Speaker 03

  I'm Stephen Gray and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, this trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand new update to the multi-award-winning podcast, Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  Back to the end of 2021. Almost a year and a half after Louise first contacts me, I post on TikTok about my frustrations with Louise and my mom's case. "The AG's office was completely ignoring my calls and there was nothing that we could do without their support. And I couldn't keep pretending to like the woman who found me or playing along with her nonsense anymore."

• 20:00Speaker 00

  Louise and I are still talking, though. And I go over some of my mom's notes from her planners that mention Louise. Yeah, like even, um, like June 10th, 1992, getting ready for divorce. Louise and Henry definite witnesses, nine o'clock, family court, divorce hearing.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Did they go? Did she go to all that shit?

• 20:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, June 16, 1992, nine o'clock, family court.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Where did you say Louise was there?

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Right, right here, nine o'clock, family court in 5C, divorce hearing. Have two witnesses meet Clifford in front of 5C with two witnesses, Louise and Henry, at nine o'clock. Then she writes, "Unprepared. Next time in couple of months, ring off my finger at jeweler's."

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Never even seen a ring, number one. And on top of it, if I was a witness there, she would have voted Louise and Louise was there to witness. Because I was not there. Not only was I not there, she never asked me to be there.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  That's so weird.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Well, I don't fucking know, your mom.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  I'm trying so hard to keep Louise talking. But after almost a year and a half of pretending to believe her, I'm quickly losing patience. I know she's lying to me. I have the notes my mom wrote right in front of me. Hold on, because she wrote more about... She wrote so much and it's hard to go through. Hold on. I like, I know, like, the investigators kinda, so they took her journals and scanned everything. So I'm sure they're going through all this shit, but let me see if I can find it. Now I'm the one who's lying. I haven't gotten the police to take an interest in my mom's case yet, but I need Louise to take this seriously. Um, she wrote, she wrote something else. I'm trying to find it.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Louise, Louise can't stand John. She's scared of him. Think she's a loser?

• 21:48Speaker 00

  No, she didn't write that at all. Um, hold on, I'll find it.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Now Louise was afraid of John slash scary Harry? Wasn't he just the cutie pie with buck teeth who can't seem to make a living? She wrote, sorry, I'm trying to find it. Like, things were not going well for her. Um, what the fuck? I'm trying to find this, sorry.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  It's okay, honey.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  She literally wrote so much shit. Um,

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is odd. What, you ever think that, why would your mother wrote a paper journal like that?

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, so, yeah, but at the same,

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Who does that?

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Well, at the same time, like, the investigators love it because they're like, wow, she was smart, she wrote everything down, which is good, but,

• 22:31Speaker 01

  People are like, why?

• 22:33Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, I always think of like, why?

• 22:36Speaker 00

  Let me see. I'll tell you, cause like, she mentioned, there were a couple of things she mentioned about you, where I was like, that's, oh, here it is. Monday, January 27th, 1992. Louise called, says she knows John's in jail, go for divorce, legal aid, February 28th. It's weird. So there's that. Then two days later, Wednesday, January 29th, 92. Papers being served, call in three to four weeks for court date, John being served in jail. Um, so that's beginning, let's see. February 3rd, 92, Louise comes by. Um,

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Friday, February 7th of 92, Tommy in jail.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  So my mom's ex-husband, John, AKA scary Harry, and my bio dad, Thomas, are both in jail at the same time back in 1992? From the records I found, Thomas was charged with assault and battery in 1990. The case dragged on until the end of 1992, and in February of 92, he was charged with non-payment of restitution related to this case.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  This is all about John, right?

• 23:50Speaker 00

  No, well, she was writing about, um, Tommy, she was writing about John, she wrote stuff about everybody. She wrote my first words, um,

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Which is what?

• 24:01Speaker 00

  My first word was Baba, my second word was Mama, and my third word was Dada.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  But see, like, she wrote all that stuff down. She, um, what else did she write? Let's see. Like, she even wrote stuff like, um, like, she had a, a, a doctor visit with me, it got canceled, and she wrote canceled because of snow. Like, all these, she wrote crazy amounts of details down. I'm trying to politely get across to Louise that I trust my mother's extremely detailed notes much more than Louise's memory. I need to know more about scary Harry slash John. As usual, I think Louise knows more than she's telling me.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  I met John once, and then he was at my house for a barbecue.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  How did you know he was in jail?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  I didn't. And if I knew he was in jail, your mother told me. Come on, yeah, think about that.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, but she wrote in here, um,

• 25:00Speaker 00

  that she knew that he was in jail because you told her.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  No, that's bullshit. You're reading it wrong.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  Oh, let me see, where was it again?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  How the fuck would I know if John was in jail?

• 25:12Speaker 00

  You're smart, you're smart, and you know people.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Why would I care?

• 25:16Speaker 00

  Because it's your best friend and he beat the shit out of her?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Lauren, I've never witnessed John bringing you here.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  This is Monday,

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I was around him twice.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  I'm gonna read this to you.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Twice, he was very nice to your mother.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  So I'm gonna read this to you again. Monday, January 27th, 92, and I'm being patient and nice here, so let's read it again. Louise called, says she knows John's in jail, go for divorce. How did you know he was in jail? So let's be real.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Your mother told me.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  She didn't tell you. You told her.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Wrong. How would I know that?

• 25:51Speaker 00

  That's what I'm asking you. You called him Johnny Cutie Pie. We're now about an hour and a half into this conversation. I'm at my breaking point.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  No, to answer your question, no, I did not know John was in jail. The only, the common denominator, okay, the, and I'm, I'm being patient and very nice. The common denominator between me and the fucking loser John husband was Lori. Anything I knew about John was told to me from your mother.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  I'm just telling you what she wrote down.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Right, and I'm, I'm explaining it to you. The truth, on my right hand to God, on the Bible, seen the man twice, mother was there. Anything I know about him came from your mother.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Period.

• 26:41Speaker 00

  So that's weird. Louise called.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  No, it's not weird, babe, I'm just telling you.

• 26:45Speaker 00

  So, here's my whole thing. She wrote down everything, right? She wrote down a lot of notes, which has been really helpful for all these people looking into it.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Good, good, good.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  So why did, why would she write that down?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  I don't know, honey, I wasn't there. You're asking me to, um, think about what, what, what was in your mother's head? I don't know. But you know what? It seems to me you're getting, you're getting very, um, uh, impatient.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  Well, no, I mean, my mom, if, well, if my mom was murdered, I definitely wanna know what the fuck happened to her, for sure.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Right, well, with that being said, fucking, uh, the people you're dealing with, that's, those are the ones you have to, uh, push, push and pull. They're the ones, you know, uh, head honcho in this whole, this whole thing. So you, I, I don't know what you, woman, it's like, you, you have an idea in your head, and you're going up a particular avenue with it.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 27:45Speaker 01

  I, I don't know, you seem to, you're hell-bent, you really think somebody murdered your mother. I, I, I don't know. I wish I could help you more. I've given you every knowledge that I have, okay? But, uh,

• 28:04Speaker 01

  I just, I don't, I, I, I don't know, I just, I, I don't know, Lauren. Again, all I can say is let, let the prophets do their homework, their due diligence.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Like, look at this.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  You know, it'll come out, it'll come out.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Like, look at this.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  My thing with you is, you know, I, I get it, that's your mom, you love her, you wanna do the right thing, I get it, I get it, but, woman,

• 28:29Speaker 01

  I, I never have any knowledge of anything bad ever that happened to her, you know?

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Louise seems to be forgetting that the reason I think my mom was murdered was because she called me out of the blue and told me that. You know, like, she recorded every single thing she did, and everybody she was with.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Then, Lauren.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  No, I know it's good, but I mean, like, it's weird. She recorded all these times with you guys, and like, she took a lot of pictures and stuff too that match up to it, but like, it's weird how she would say that you were the second witness in the divorce, it's weird how she would say, you know what I mean? Like, it's odd.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  I think, I, I don't know, but maybe she was planning on asking me, or maybe she just told that lawyer I was gonna come, knowing I wasn't gonna come, and try to fucking post, I don't know. I don't know, but there's no fucking way I was, I was gonna walk into a court of fucking law. Okay, a court of law, all respect for the fucking law, a family in the law, okay? I'm not gonna walk into a, and your mother knew that. I ain't gonna walk into a court of law and say I can be a witness to something I cannot be a witness to. I don't lie, okay? And I would never lie to a fucking judge, first and foremost.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  No, I know.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Lauren, your mother never, oh, I wish you were here, your mother, listen to me, your mother never, ever, ever asked me to be a witness in any fucking divorce.

• 29:54Speaker 00

  So,

• 29:54Speaker 01

  You think, you think, you don't believe me, that pisses me off.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  We can literally just pull the records, cause Clifford GMC is still,

• 30:01Speaker 01

  You're gonna find Louise, was Louise there? No. Then you can say, Louise, I'm sorry. I would never walk into a court of law and tell a judge, yeah, uh, John, uh, John hit her. I've never seen John hit her. I would never do that. And she knows that.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  But you know he violated a protective order against her.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  No, I met the motherfucker twice. Once I was at her house, visiting her. She said to me, Johnny's pulling up, Johnny's pulling up.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Where did his nickname Johnny Cutie Pie come from?

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Never heard of him.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  You said it.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  I did not, Johnny, I've never said that.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  You did say it.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Check your takes. No, I've never said that. Johnny Cutie Pie. Oh, wait, excuse me. I might've said John was a cutie pie. In my opinion, yes, he was very handsome. Check his pictures, he was very good-looking. But that's all he had was his looks. He wasn't Cutie Pie. And I would say, any, like, if I met your husband, or whatever, I would say, yeah, he's a Cutie Pie. I like the word Cutie Pie, you don't like the word Cutie Pie?

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Not for a guy who beat my mom's face in.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I did not know that. I met him that fucking day. In his, like I told you, first time.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  You spent, so you spent her final birthday with her. You were the person whose house she went to when she left my father. You were the one who told her to go for the divorce, you were a witness in her divorce, and you never heard a thing about this motherfucker who violated a protective order against her after he committed felony assault. Come on, Louise, I was born on a day, but it wasn't fucking yesterday.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Sweetheart, that was, she didn't share that information with me?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  This shit's driving you fucking crazy. You're not thinking clearly. If I knew more, I would tell you. You, you act like I'm holding back on something, I'm not. I'm trying to be patient. Oh, God, this feels fucking.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  No, I mean, like, I, When it comes to-

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I know, you've been through a lot. I know, I know, I know. I know, I know. You don't mean to be abrasive. You just want to turn over every rock. I get it. But your mother, I get it.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  And she was a good friend of mine.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Just a reminder here that Louise has called my mom a good friend, a close friend, and also someone she was only really friends with in middle school. I wish, like, this is one of the things where I'm like, I wish that they had talked to you guys back then because I feel like if you had told them about the Peter thing, they could have followed up on that in 93. I try a different tactic to see if I can finally get Louise to talk to the police, since she didn't in 1993. I bring up the supposed secret boyfriend Peter from New Hampshire, who Louise told me must have been the last person to see my mom.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Well, that would have been like hearsay or something because was I there? No.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  No, but it's not hearsay. If you hear it from her, if she said to you, Peter is coming over.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Peter's coming down. How many fucking times did I say that?

• 33:07Speaker 00

  No, but that's what I'm saying. So that's not hearsay because you heard that directly from her. She said to you, Peter is coming down. So that's directly from the victim. So that's what I'm saying. If they had known that in 93, they could have followed up on it.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Well, they did it, honey.

• 33:21Speaker 00

  But you could tell them now. You know what I mean? Like, if you went and talked to them now, you'd probably be able to help them a lot.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Well, I'm waiting for them to come knocking on my fucking door. Well, I don't care if they do. Oh, I don't, I, Lauren.

• 33:34Speaker 00

  I know.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  I teach you this, ready?

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Teach you this. Ding dong, there goes my doorbell. Got three dogs, they're gonna bark up the door.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  But you take care of yourself, you know? Don't let this make you fucking snap or nothing. You know, you're very young, you know?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  You can tell this is just fucking like fire in your ass.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was my mom.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  I know. I know your mom better than you do.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Ah, Lauren, you big blueberry you. Don't worry, honey. They'll find out. We'll know.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  I know.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  I just don't want you to go through anything medically through this, you know?

• 34:18Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Well, you know, Lauren, I don't know how you do it. You work a full-time job and you're dealing with a major investigation into the loss of your mom. I mean, come on. How much more could you put on Lauren's play? Really?

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know. But I mean, it's, it's my mom.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  I know. But one day, you might be driving down the street, get a flat tire and just lose your mind. That flat tire might be the thing that throws you off the edge.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  Eh, no, no.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Just take care. Well, they're gonna find out, Lauren. They're gonna do their job and then they're gonna share with you everything.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Is Louise threatening me? She hopes nothing happens to me medically? Something might happen to me by the side of the road?

• 35:12Speaker 05

  Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go. Deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best binge-watch series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  In January 1995, 18-year-old Krista Pike and two friends lured a classmate, 19-year-old Colleen Slemmer, to an abandoned steam plant and killed her. At just 20 years old, Pike was sentenced to death. 30 years later, on September 30th, 2026, the state of Tennessee tried to execute her and failed. I'm Candace DeLong, former FBI profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche, where we go inside the minds behind the most shocking crimes. In our latest episode, we take you inside the case of Krista Pike. The brutal crime, the childhood of abuse, three decades of appeals, and the night an

• 36:16Speaker 00

  execution went terribly wrong. Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Killer Psyche one week early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Hey, guys. I was still speaking with that woman who found me. She'd started taunting me, saying that I should give her a heads up when police or TV cameras were gonna knock on her door. So it's at this point I decide to start making some of my recordings public on social media. I include my conversation with Darren, my mom's cocaine dealer, and, of course, Louise. I even post links on Facebook with some of my favorite Louise quotes, such as-

• 37:04Speaker 01

  As nice as I am, I can get down and dirty with the worst of them, honey. Fucking Lori, why couldn't you just fucking listen? Well, I just want to let you know, you're gonna sometimes, if I move in a particular way you're not used to, speak up because I'm very, very aggressive. So, Allison, oh, I'm sorry, honey, blueberries, listen. Have you ever heard this term before? Your mother had, you know, an A, an A in school?

• 37:33Speaker 01

  And a D in life.

• 37:40Speaker 00

  Bonus points in that last one for calling me by my Aunt Allison's name. The woman she supposedly never talks to in the same sentence as she insults my mother. Double whammy. And it's not only me Louise threatens. She's still going off about my brother Tommy. It really bothered her that he said she was at my mom's place when she was found dead.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Well, as long as you don't mind if I maul your brother. Yeah, legally, legally. How dare he talk about, oh, I was there with Louise the day she was found or the day she got killed? I said, let him dig his own hole. Let him dig the hole. Let him dig the hole, honey. Ask him, please. So Louise was there? What was you doing there? I'll get him the way I should have got Big Tommy for fucking my girl Lori.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Why is she so angry about my bio dad, Thomas, but complimentary about John slash Scary Harry, who we know abused my mom?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  If I ever meet your fucking brother Tommy, I hope to God I can get some fucking bad shit out of his mouth about me because then he gonna know what's up.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  At this point, I unfriend Louise on Facebook. I know, what took me so long? But the threats to me and my family were the last straw. But even after that, I know she's still following everything I'm doing. Every so often, one of her friends sends me a friend request. It's like a weird, creepy online dance. Along with my top Louise quotes, I post a screenshot of a text I'd gotten from my Aunt Allison in September of 2021, where she contradicts, in writing, her 1993 witness statement, now saying that Henry killed my mom.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Henry was my mom's friend who called the police for a wellness check and found my mom's body with police. He was originally a suspect but quickly released. In her 1993 statement, Allison says that on the Wednesday, quote, "I called Henry around 7 o'clock PM and asked him if he had heard from Lori and he told me that he talked to her on Monday or Tuesday night." She goes on to say, "Today, Henry came over to my house around 11 o'clock AM. He asked me if I found out anything new and I told him no. Henry told me that it was not like Lori to be gone for so long. He asked me what I was going to do and I told him that I was going to go by the house and check again.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  He told me that he had already been and was not going back." At no point in 1993 does Allison say that she suspects Henry killed my mom. But in Allison's text to me, she says, "Lauren, Henry did this to my sister they just could not prove."

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Lauren, Lauren, I'm shocked, okay? I'm shocked.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, so am I.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  I loved my sister. So don't you, I read that you accused me?

• 40:42Speaker 00

  I didn't accuse you of shit. Allison has a lot of feelings about me posting that text when I confront her in front of her house.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  No, I saw it. I saw it. They said that I called Henry. I never had his phone on the phone.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  I'm going by what the police report said. Allison is gaslighting me the same way Louise was gaslighting me. Both of them are trying to make me disbelieve things I've read in black and white with my own eyes. It's infuriating.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  I mean, if you put down that I lied, that I said that I called Henry, there are no phone records in the world that can prove that and I have proof of that.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  You never said you called Henry. The police record said that he went over to the house and you spoke with him.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  You and I went on and swore that you put on the police report that her sister lied. So she's the accuser.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  I didn't put that on the police report.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Yes, you did.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  I mean, you didn't tell them the truth.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Of course I did.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  You didn't tell them the full truth, Allison.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  They're not telling the truth.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Okay, so the police are totally lying about a homicide investigation.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  I take my sister's kid in when I don't have a kid and pay all my money to her.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  And we're back to this same old song and dance. Once again, talking to Allison gets me nowhere except frustrated and angry. I never made a police report, but I think Allison might be referring to me calling her out on social media, implying that she lied to police.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  By the very end of 2021, almost 18 months after I first heard from Louise, I am calling, emailing, and tweeting at every senator, congressperson, and elected official I can find who will listen to me. I ask them for help to get my mom's case reopened. I publish everything on my own writing website, Life by Lauren Lee, and get over 100 signatures on my Justice for Sled Dog petition. It feels like any day now we'll find the right person to get this case reopened. Then, in early 2022, I finally tracked down an elusive old contact of my mom's, and they have a warning for me.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  I can't talk about people like, I can just tell you to stay away. That could be hazardous.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  To your health. Do you think Lu-- or do you know if Luis has ever actually hurt anybody? Will what they have to say change everything?

• 43:30Speaker 00

  This has been My Mom's Murder, an Audible original, produced by Audible and Ayr Media and hosted by me, Lauren Malloy. Executive produced by MGM Television and Toluca Pictures. Executive producer for Ayr Media, Eliza Rosen. Executive producer for Audible, Laura Regan-Klein Schmidt. Executive producer for Toluca Pictures, Stacy Levin. Executive producers, Lauren Malloy and Chloe Grace Moretz. Produced and written by Michelle Simon. Edited and mixed by Tristan Bankston. Coordinator for Ayr Media, Andy Levine. Audio engineering and mastering by Justin Longerbeam. Theme music by Jonathan Brooke.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Legal counsel for Ayr Media, Gianni Douglas. Head of creative development at Audible, Kate Navin. Chief content officer, Rachel Giatza. Copyright 2024 by Ayr Media. Sound recording copyright 2024 by Audible Originals LLC.

• 44:38Speaker 05

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us.

• 45:23Speaker 05

  For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.