Brainstorming business ideas with a billion-dollar founder

140+ Business Ideas (Database): https://clickhubspot.com/efdj Episode 840: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) and Shaan Puri ( https://x.com/ShaanVP ) talk to Mark Pincus ( https://x.com/markpinc ) about figuring out what projects to spend your life on. — Show Notes: (0:00) $0- $38M in 7 months (3:00) if you pick the right body of water, you don't have to have the right boat (16:51) pattern matching (23:17) there's always a new freak (25:00) picking macros (27:48) a case for gold (39:50) How to know what to chase (49:12) create a book of life (59:59) Frameworks vs instincts (1:09:00) being hated and misunderstood (1:11:13) the story of farmville (1:15:00) avoiding the fur coat moment (1:19:49) the nickelback problem (1:22:02) introspection vs rumination — Links: • Life At The Speed of Play - https://www.amazon.com/Life-Speed-Play-Launch-Products/dp/0063352575 — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton (joinhampton.com): My community for founders. Average member does $25m/year. Many of the guests are members. Get after it...apply: http://joinhampton.com/mfm — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Shaan's weekly email - https://www.shaanpuri.com • Visit https://www.somewhere.com/mfm to hire worldwide talent like Shaan and get $500 off for being an MFM listener. Hire developers, assistants, marketing pros, sales teams and more for 80% less than US equivalents. • Mercury - Shaan uses Mercury for banking across all of his companies. you can too: http://mercury.com/ Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column, N. A., and Evolve Bank & Trust, Members FDIC • I run all my newsletters on Beehiiv and you should too + we're giving away $10k to our favorite newsletter, check it out: beehiiv.com/mfm-challenge My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano /

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sam Parr?

  You don't have a lot of money, but you have access to AI. Out loud, let's go through this framework.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  I almost want to turn this to my whiteboards.

• 0:07Sam Parr?

  Awesome. Great.

• 0:08Shaan Puri?

  This is like showing us nudes for my first million. This is like exactly what we like.

• 0:22Sam Parr?

  So, all right, you've done everything. You built a $10 billion company. You're, I think, a seed investor in Facebook or early investor in Facebook. One thing you haven't done is sitting still. I'm looking at your biography and your timeline. It seems like you start a company, it either sells or fails. And six months later, you have a new company and you've done that like eight times, it feels like. Do you ever sit still?

• 0:44Speaker 01

  I'm working on sitting still. My partner Hillary, we said she's like a tree and I'm like a hummingbird. And so I'm trying to be more like, like a redwood tree.

• 0:54Shaan Puri?

  Why is that? Why not just embrace your nature of just being this extremely generative, creative guy? Who cares? Why be the tree? Be the bird.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's good to have a balance. I'm trying to, I'm not trying to sit still from a creative business work perspective, but in home life, I think it's more, it's good balance. You know, I've added like morning practice with breathing and meditation. So I definitely have extreme ADD and so, but I, but I do better when I focus, but they both work really well together. You know, my daughter Carmen has dyslexia and ADD. And we tried Adderall and some of those things. And she liked it first. And then I was like, wait, your brain is beautiful the way it is. I don't want to normalize your brain and standardize it. Let's figure out what works best for your brain, you know?

• 1:46Speaker 01

  So it's, I'm a little bit like that with myself of just saying, the way I work, I call my investment and incubator, work-play ventures because I love this kind of triangulation between work-play and usefulness to the world. And that's why this book took so long and was difficult because it took me a long time to find the, the fun kind of narrative and voice for the book.

• 2:14Sam Parr?

  One of the cool parts is that you, you're very transparent about money and that was pretty cool. I think you were in your late twenties or so when you sold Freeloader. I think you said you made like two or $3 million. You sold it for $38 million. You walked away, I think with three or five. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Five after taxes.

• 2:35Sam Parr?

  Five after taxes.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  I had to pay short-term gains because it was so fast.

• 2:38Sam Parr?

  It was like a 10-month or something like that.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Seven months. Yeah.

• 2:41Sam Parr?

  Which is crazy. And then you wrote a $38,000 check to Facebook. I think you said that that would be worth $6 billion now. How often are you doing the math as to how much that would be worth had you not sold?

• 2:55Shaan Puri?

  Is that part of your morning meditation? You calculate what nine million shares of Facebook is worth today?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  It's amazing. I, I say in the book that it is so true in this life, like some of the patterns that I recognize is if you pick the right body of water, you don't have to pick the right boat, but if you pick the wrong body of water, the best boat isn't going to help you. And it's just been so true. And the internet obviously was the right body of water. Now it's like, it's like the whole thing. You can't even call it a body of water and you know, AI is like that now. And there's so many instances where I sold something that I was early and it became, it would have become worth a lot. I mean, but even in selling my first company Freeloader, you know, we said no to Yahoo.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  They had, I think, 35 employees. They'd been public like six weeks. They were worth 800 million. We would have had 5% of the company. I would have had 1.5%. I remember all these numbers for sure. But I, I wrote on the back of an envelope, like if I got fired in year one, which deal would be better if I got fired in year two? I knew I'd get fired. And so I just was trying to figure out, well, at what point, how long would I have to make it before the Yahoo deal is better? You know, and I thought I'd have to make it at least like two to three years and that seemed unlikely. So, but I was wrong. Even one year would have been amazing and.

• 4:27Sam Parr?

  And that check, was that 10? So that was 10% of your net worth you put into Facebook's seed round? Is that right? Is that math right?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. 38,000.

• 4:36Sam Parr?

  Oh, 38,000. Sorry. I was thinking 500,000.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  No, I, there's nothing brilliant about my Facebook investment and I get kind of bugged when I see people on their investment resumes put that they were, you know, a seed in, or early in, there were only three seed investors in Facebook. It was me, Reed and Peter Thiel. But you would have, anyone listening to this would have made the same investment that I did if they could have. You know, it's probably more impressive that I was in a place that, you know, Zuckerberg and Sean Parker walked into my office than that I, you know, decided to invest.

• 5:16Shaan Puri?

  So tell the story of how that happened because I feel like the, Peter Thiel gets a lot of recognition for that. And even Reed kind of, I think, introduced or facilitated the meeting. I feel like you're not included in that story as much. So as a historian of Silicon Valley, I want to know what, what was going on then? So can you take us back? How did that investment happen? What was, what was going on? I think Sean Parker was your intern at one point and he was a teenager.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Sean has this amazing nose for viral consumer hits and, and he found Freeloader really early and wrote me this whole long email and said he was a Unix programmer and he'd come work for free for the summer. I think he was 16. And I said, sure. And he came and he was awesome. I don't know if he actually knew how to program Unix or not. I still haven't actually ever gone back and asked him, but, but he, you know, he was a force even then. And, and then he started Napster with the other Sean, Fanning, and emailed me about Napster and just said,

• 6:18Speaker 01

  we turn on these couple servers, this music sharing and it's, every server is full. We need more money. And we need $100,000 and I just mailed them a check for 100,000 because again, that was just a no-brainer. You always send that check. But, you know, and Napster could have been gigantic. And I think that was the beginning of the whole social media, you know, wave and revolution, but just a bunch of years, a few years earlier. And then.

• 6:48Shaan Puri?

  Hey, I want to tell you about something pretty cool. We have a database of all of the business ideas that have been discussed on this podcast. So hundreds of episodes, the team at HubSpot went through, they pulled out all the simple, relatable, interesting, profitable ideas that we have brainstormed. And they're all available for download for free. Just click the link in the description below. Thank you to our friends at HubSpot for sponsoring this podcast and putting together this free resource for you guys. Back to the show.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  And Reed and I had met while he was at PayPal around politics. And then we both kind of came back to consumer internet in 2002. There's a small number of people. We both wrote the first checks into Friendster, which we just thought was like a useful experiment. And then it started to blow up in February of 03, like a month after it launched. And I guess it was in 04 that Sean walked Zuckerberg into my office at Tribe and said, you got to see this. I just joined this company and, and I'd heard about the Facebook, you know, I'd heard they were in a couple of schools.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  He said, we have a waitlist for all the rest of the schools or that want to be, want us to launch and, you know, but we launch a school. It sounded just like Napster. He's like, we launch a school, we get 80% the first week. The next week we get the other 20% and Zuckerberg was just sitting here, this, he really looked like he was like 15 or 16. I think he was 19. And he was in like basketball shorts, you know, Hawaiian flip flops, had his feet up on my table and gave me a card that said, you know, I'm CEO bitch. And, and it's just, he was just from another world. He was just so unapologetic and it just didn't matter because

• 8:40Speaker 01

  his metrics were amazing, like between 60 and 80% of his users logged on every day or just stayed logged on. He had nailed trust. You know, every single person, when I looked at their profile, had their cell phone and at the time it connected to their computer. They had this product called Wirehog, I think, that would, was like Napster that would upload every file and music and things from your computer. And, and I was, I was failing so miserably with Tribe that.

• 9:09Shaan Puri?

  Well, Tribe was also a social network.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, Tribe was before Facebook. It was, it was one of the first three social networks. And, and I like to say that, that part of the, the deep painful scars and learning that went into Zynga and went into this book, and I'm hoping to save other founders from doing, because it's, it really is like a friend who's just in a bad relationship and you're like, he's just not that into you. Like, stop it. Like just have some dignity. Like you could go back and shake me when I was doing Tribe and say, Mark, you're, there's so much like in this. Stop just sticking heroically to this one idea that's too complicated.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Got trust wrong and it's not working. And there were probably 10 social networks that launched in that era. And eight were successful. Like, you know, Bebo was around that time, you know, Michael Birch. He was, he sold for a lot of money to AOLs, you know, tagged, later MySpace. And I managed to fail with Tribe, like, because I just stuck to one idea when, when everything was working. And so by the time Zuckerberg and Sean walked in my office. I knew enough to invest. I should have copied them. I mean, I should have said, okay, they've nailed trust. I don't necessarily have to do the .edu, although it was brilliant and I

• 10:36Speaker 01

  could have done it. But I think like so many founders, I was stuck in this pride and didn't do, you know, Peter Thiel would call that a moral arbitrage, right? That we don't feel good about that, right? But someone's gonna copy it and did and will. And now that's, you know, unapologetically part of Zuckerberg's playbook. And we see them coming out with their own Calci or, you know, and that's, it's just the efficiency of the market and the internet that somebody is going to do it. And it's actually how we get more innovation, because if they just exactly copied it, it will probably fail. But if they did proven better new, like

• 11:21Speaker 01

  I write about in the book, they might get to something that's an innovation.

• 11:26Sam Parr?

  Hey, when he, when a young guy like that does what he did, you know, he's got that audacious business card, he's got his feet on your desk or whatever. Are you turned off by that? You're like, this cocky arrogant prick? Or are you like, I love this chutzpah. This is awesome?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  You're both. You're everything at once. And you have some deep self loathing, too. Because you're like, ah, you know, remember, like, I was not a first time founder at this point. I had some swagger, like I had, my first two companies were very big successes. And now I was on my third one. And it seems ordained, you know, and social networks working. And it's not, mine isn't working. It was, it was like a sinking speedboat. Like, we had huge virality, no retention, or very, very limited retention. And you're like, he's got, he's holding, you know, if you're playing poker, he's holding the nuts. Like, he's got

• 12:22Speaker 01

  the cards. So he can be arrogant, you know, and your front of brain, hopefully your executive function is working enough to overcome your ego and emotions and say, dude, you have to invest in this if you can, because he's got the winning hand. And you've been playing this game. You know enough to know this is the winning hand.

• 12:44Sam Parr?

  What was the moment that you thought, oh, this guy's gonna be like generational? This isn't like a short term viral app. This is, this guy could be one of the greats?

• 12:54Speaker 01

  That came later. As he went, it went from just this fun, kind of, he had lightning in a bottle, this rocket ship. He was having fun hiring all his friends and all living in a house together. I remember, it was at like the D conference, Kara Swisher's conference. He was there, maybe it was the first time he was speaking. I can't remember. I don't know if it was the time that he kind of famously, I think it was later that she, yeah, I don't, this, I don't think this is the sweat con. But I went up to his room with him for some reason. I was always trying to like, have impromptu product meetings with him. So I

• 13:36Speaker 01

  was in his room. I think he was gonna speak. He had forgotten, I think, that I had invested, or that was part of it, and said, oh, right, you own stock. What'd you put in? And he did the math. And I think maybe I owned like, half a percent of the company. And he was like, wow. He's like, that's amazing. He's like, that's, that's gonna be huge, or something, you know? He was almost like in the third person, not saying it as Zuck, the founder, the CEO, but he was just like, almost like a friend and peer. And then he morphed like by the month. And he had such a sense that this was destined to be this generational

• 14:21Speaker 01

  company. And I found he had that pretty, maybe it was around the time that he brought Cheryl in. But I think anytime that we had issues, like we were getting in their way, like by 2010, when they were trying to roll out credits and Zynga was starting to be a very big part of their platform, we were, we were like, 80% of the ecosystem, app ecosystem. We were like this really overgrown teenager. And, you know, they were trying to explain why we needed to voluntarily sign up for their credits, because everyone would follow.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  And it was like, he wasn't explaining it in just business terms. He was explaining it more in a way that like,

• 15:10Sam Parr?

  Mafia terms?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  No, not even, there was a little mafia. And when, you know, they said, they said, you're not leaning in, you know, and I started, they had language that everyone repeat in the company. And, you know, I started to kind of hear lean in, you know, at the time, as, so they wanted Zynga to voluntarily lean in for credits, even though credits was, it wasn't just a 30% tax on our revenues. It was, it was so primitive, the way they built it, that we were losing 50% of transactions. And it would have been kind of elective surgery to like chop off our legs if none of the other developers in the ecosystem were doing

• 15:51Speaker 01

  it. But they said, you know, he said, Cheryl worked in the Treasury Department, and she can explain to you why this makes so much sense economically for our ecosystem. But it was, my point is, the way that he was talking about things were like, don't you get that this is like, in the way of the destiny and the fate of this company? So you can't stand in the way, because this is fate. You're in the way of fate.

• 16:20Sam Parr?

  It sounds like, like, have you ever read about, like, some of the conquerors? Like, have you ever read like about Napoleon? Or any of these folks? Like Napoleon has this quote, or I'm paraphrasing, where he was like, someone was like, what's your, what's your heritage? They want to know like where he came from. He's like, oh, I come from the people who conquer worlds. Like, most people say Irish, or whatever. And he was like,

• 16:43Speaker 01

  I come from the winner's side.

• 16:44Sam Parr?

  Yeah, like, what you're describing is very similar, where it was like a sense of destiny. And that's, that's very rare and intoxicating.

• 16:52Shaan Puri?

  It's an interesting question that's not related only to Zuck, right? Like, I think one of the cool things that you've been in the game for so long, and you've been early into a bunch of the right, what'd you call it, the right oceans, or whatever, bodies of water. But I wonder, do you, can you pattern match now when somebody is sort of, has, has that, that extra gear, or that X factor, or whatever it is? Or do you think it was a lot more of luck, and there was a thousand other people just like them, that just didn't happen to catch a winning, winning train ride? Like, I guess, what's your conclusion?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  I talk about this in the book, that there's pattern matching around lightning in a bottle. And it's every metric and anecdote comes back to this. The reason why we don't pattern match that is because we usually haven't seen it. And, and this is where B plus the enemy of an A. If you have to ask somebody, do you think this is lightning in a bottle? It ain't lightning in a bottle. You know, when you've got it, you don't have to ask anybody. It's like true love. I mean, it's like, I hope you guys, you know, have experienced that kind of love, that you didn't have to ask anybody else if they thought this was

• 18:02Speaker 01

  the one. And there's so many things. I mean, Napster didn't have to ask anyone. Friendster didn't have to ask, and it's, Friendster was like, I thought it was the most unlikely thing when we funded it. But then I was sitting at a blackjack table at the Hard Rock Hotel in Vegas. And there were these two girls from, they're like, kind of, maybe post-college from Ohio, and sitting next to me as one finds themselves in Vegas. And one turned to the other and said, oh, can you, I think she said, can you Friendster me? Or, this is a month after it launched. And she said, you know, can you, it was invite only. And she said, can you invite me to Friendster? And my head like spun around. I was like,

• 18:47Speaker 01

  what did you just say? Friendster? And, and that's these kind of shocking moments. And so it can be a one anecdote like that. It could be, I mean, the first time I played Restaurant City, which was for our competitor, Playfish, I was like, holy, I was so addicted to that game. In fact, I just tweeted back and forth with a guy who was the product manager on it. Just huge respect. I mean, I was so addicted to the game. I just think there are patterns that you can just see, there are metrics. Like, every time you see

• 19:21Speaker 01

  60% DAU to MAU, just invest. That was Facebook. That was Friendster. When 60% of the people who, you know, tried this, come back every day, then you get that kind of engagement. That's just lightning in a bottle.

• 19:42Sam Parr?

  What about for personalities?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  I can't say that there is one pattern, but there are a lot of similarities. But there's, there is a certain swagger that I see. It's, it's not even a personality, it's more of an energy that they have. When, when someone's got the nuts, like when they... Have it. There's a way that they don't give any [__] if you care that is deeply authentic. Now, you can fake it like we saw in the show Silicon Valley. People can try to be a derivative fake of that, and that might work for a little while. But there's things like, I've invested in the last few rounds in this private company that has an online, the biggest online bank in Europe called Revolut.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Okay, I've never met the founder. I'm deeply in admiration of him. But I started admiring him from afar just because I saw every six months they'd do another round and beat the projections they'd given us six months earlier. That's what we were doing at Zynga. And when you see that, you also just invest without asking what the price is. That's, this is not investment advice. I'm sorry, this is what I've done. You know, when, when I see a company that's just beating its own numbers and yes, in the public markets, there used to be Cisco trying to manage us with, they very carefully manage, you know, beat and raise. That, we've started a pattern, recognize is not real.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  But when it's real, and you're like, they give you numbers that sound like hockey stick, and then they beat those, just invest.

• 21:22Sam Parr?

  Who else have you seen that with? It's pretty cool to hear that. So Revolut, which we don't, we don't use, it's European.

• 21:28Shaan Puri?

  Obviously now Anthropic.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Yes, Anthropic.

• 21:32Shaan Puri?

  They've got that right now.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Anthropic, I, I did the same. I stupidly skipped the first two rounds. I wouldn't say it's even that stupid. You know, I skipped the five billion valuation and the 18. And it was because at the time, nobody believed there was going to be room for a second LLM. And I worried they wouldn't be able to raise enough capital to compete. Then Amazon led that third round at like 20 billion. And then it changed everything because they had clear access to capital. Then the next round that I saw, I think was 180 billion. And I just invested. I was like, okay, I was wrong. I'm just going to invest.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I don't, not going to worry about the fact that I could have invested like 10x ago.

• 22:19Shaan Puri?

  And how do you, how do you think about upside here? Like I invested when it was at over 800 billion or something crazy. And I'm almost laughing at myself like, oh yeah, let me just, yeah, 800 billion. There's clear upside from here. But then you sort of have to break your brain and be like, if, if these work, how big are these going to be? How do you think about the case for how big these big AI companies are going to be?

• 22:40Speaker 01

  My pattern that I've learned in the last couple of gigantic platform shifts in the internet is that whatever we think we will underestimate how big and profound and impactful it's going to be. I don't think anyone even believed really 10 years ago that we would have multi-trillion dollar companies. Say, I remember when all these companies were 300 billion. And that seemed like the cap. Microsoft, Facebook or Meta, Tencent and the company Alibaba. And I would have theoretically believed they could 10x, but I wouldn't have, I wouldn't believe, I wouldn't have bet my money on it.

• 23:19Sam Parr?

  Yeah. Do you still struggle with that? Like just under, like, we all know this pattern. We all know this pattern. Like, for example, I like track and field and I always think, oh, this record is unbreakable. And obviously ever record, every record gets broken or there's always a new freak. Same with companies, there's always a new freak. So even though I know that, it's still shocking when you see it. And it's still like, I can't believe that.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  You just have to get comfortable with this, this kind of emotional, intellectual dissonance and separation. And yeah, it's, it's just, it is hard to grasp, like on the one hand. But then, you know, yeah, if, if basically this AI kind of centralized computing becomes part of the stack of the way everything gets done. It, it just, it makes sense that it'll 10x. So I, I believe these companies will get to at least 10 trillion.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  And that means they'll probably get to like 20 or 30 trillion. And so, and it, I'm not, I'm not saying they won't crash before then and there won't be despair. You know, who knows if in Q, a lot of people are betting that in Q1 of next year, you know, this, these infrastructure bets aren't going to re-up. But that's what they bet this year. And that's why, you know, the memory stocks have been on this wild ride and it's exciting.

• 24:50Shaan Puri?

  Do you play the stock market? Do you, do you just like kind of the game of investing, whether it's angel, it's stock market? Are you pretty active everywhere with your portfolio?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  I do like it. And I, I am like more active probably than I should be.

• 25:03Sam Parr?

  Can you give us an understanding of what your portfolio looks like as a pie?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Sure. Um, it's, well, I'd say, I'd say 50% is probably in privates of some kind.

• 25:20Sam Parr?

  Does that include them, is that the markup?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  That's probably with, I mean, some markup. And then 50% is liquid. And I've been managing my liquid portfolio for about eight years. I, I got out of all the hedge funds and different kinds of funds. And I, I just decided that they were protecting me from some amount of volatility. And that if I could withstand the volatility, I'd rather have control. And, and it just, it wasn't obvious. Actually, I mean, I looked in the previous 10 years, I had averaged 2.2% annual returns on my whole liquid portfolio with wealth managers and funds and everything. Besides massively underperformed the market.

• 26:05Shaan Puri?

  Thanks, experts.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, thanks, experts for keeping me safe, safe and low. You know, it was very consistent 2.2 though. They nailed that 2.2 every year, no volatility. And I just, I stopped any fixed income because I just, I just believe that the governments, the world have no choice but to print money. And so I, I really like macro. Like I've connected with Peter Thiel on macro investing for like 25 or 30 years. And so he's better than me, but similar, you know?

• 26:36Sam Parr?

  Can you explain, what, what does that mean? I, I don't know, I don't, I only buy index funds. I don't know anything.

• 26:42Shaan Puri?

  Well, it's sort of like, you know, Peter Thiel has this talk on YouTube when, I don't know, it's like 20 years ago. And he's basically describing Bitcoin before Bitcoin. He's describing like the macro plot, problem of fiat currencies and printing and all this stuff. It's like, if you understood that, then it's no surprise when something like Bitcoin shows up. Give us an example of some of your ideas. What were the big ideas that you got excited about, whether they're right or wrong?

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Last year, I found myself in late February, like almost fully invested in equities of my liquid portfolio. It was very bullish, I was very bullish on what Trump would mean for tech and the economy. And then I started looking at the, how bad the dislocations were going to be from the tariffs. And I was like, okay, my read on Trump is he's somewhere between, he's a good poker player and he's going to bluff, he's going to have some cards, but bluff. But he's going to have to keep making his hands stronger. So he can't, if people don't come to the table right away, he's going to have to like, show them some, show them some cards and do some damage.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  So I was like, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And the markets are going to overreact. So I put most of my portfolio in gold. And then around April, when these deals started coming in, these tariff deals, the market wasn't coming back and giving much credit. I was like, okay, Trump is going to like land this plane before the end of the year. And so then I moved hugely back into the market. And it's the most volatility and change, you know, I've ever, and this is not meant to be a brag because I've had bad years, but, but I was up like 35% on my whole liquid portfolio last year because of these trades, because of gold and because of going in and out of the market.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  This year, not nearly as good. I've gotten, I, I'm a huge long-term believer in Snapchat and I've been crushed. So this year I've been crushed in Snapchat, crushed in Bitcoin.

• 28:41Sam Parr?

  Trading is stressful. Why are you even trading in the first place? Is it just, just because you love it?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  That's why I said I shouldn't be. I mean, I should be in some place where I'm kind of set it and forget it. I enjoy it. And, and sometimes it feels like because there is no fund manager, there's some things I need to do just to be responsible. For instance, this AI infrastructure trade.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  I don't, it's a belief trade right now. Like, I don't know whether or not all these hyperscalers are gonna re-up in Q1 of next year, or, or take a pause. And I love these companies and I love the trade almost too much because it looks generational that you could buy these companies at PEG ratios that are like 0.3 or 0.25, where Nvidia, Micron, so many of these companies are trading, their trade, their PE rate is a fraction of their growth rate. That's called the PEG ratio. So, on the one hand, that looks generational, but it's because every, the market is worried that the buying, the capex rate isn't gonna keep up at this. And so I collared all of it,

• 29:51Speaker 01

  just because I don't want to worry about it. But that made me be like a day trader, because I had to put all these collars on like 10 or 15 different positions. But now I can set it and forget it, because they're like, down 15, up 50, for the next year. Okay, I, I don't have to worry about it.

• 30:10Shaan Puri?

  One thing I really like, just listening to you, is that I like that you are kind of unabashedly willing to just have fun, and like you said, blur the lines between work and play. I actually want to read you this. I think you'll, you'll appreciate this. I, I screenshotted this from Blake Mykoski, who started Tom Shoes. He put this on the wall of every office he's had. He said, "A master in the art of living draws no sharp distinction between his work and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his education and his recreation. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence through whatever he is doing, and leaves others to determine whether he is working or playing. To him, he always appears to be doing both."

• 30:50Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I love that. I really do believe that there's like a singularity of ideation and building, which is that we all will feel like Elon, you know, that we're all, I kind of, that's why I started the book, saying that we're so close to this future point where we'll all live like Elon, and we'll just put our intention in the world, and won't need to go through all of the painful steps of raising venture capital, and hiring lawyers, and all of the beat down of life, and we'll just turn our idea into something in days that other people are using. And we're, in some ways, we're there already, but I think at a business creation level, I think, I think

• 31:33Speaker 01

  that's the very near future. And, and it's awesome.

• 31:37Sam Parr?

  You have this cowboy gunslinger attitude that I love. I admire it. I would not say that's how I roll. Um, and I'm, and, but I'm, and I'm envious of you.

• 31:47Shaan Puri?

  Like when I see a guy with great style and fashion. Like, I appreciate it. Couldn't be more different, but I appreciate it.

• 31:52Sam Parr?

  The way that you, the way that you view life, it's, it's not exactly how I do things, and I'm envious of you for it. Are there downsides to this sort of, like, like you have this very stereotypical Silicon Valley energy that I love. Do you think that you feel stressed the same as the normal person?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  I don't think there is like, a constant state of Mark, you know, like, I'm not like, I love, what's the name of the guy, um, the music guy who wrote the creation, the Create, Creativity book from Hollywood?

• 32:26Shaan Puri?

  Rick Rubin?

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Rick Rubin. Like, I wish I was like, more like, I admire Rick Rubin, right? He's so zen. I'm not, I'm not, uh, not that level. Um, and the, here's what's so weird. Sam, maybe you guys can relate to this. And, and I guess, it is funny to hear that I'm kind of stereotypical Silicon Valley, because I, I've, I spent so much of my career feeling like such an outsider to Silicon Valley culture, that I'm like, okay, I don't know what that means now to be in the middle of the whole thing. I'll have to think about that. But, this whole idea of work-life balance relates to this, because I find that when people say like, "How are you doing? Are you, are you stressed,

• 33:09Speaker 01

  or relaxed?" I say, "I'm not stressed enough." I miss the level of intensity that I was, the storm I was in the middle of at Zynga, and because it was such, it was such a high to be in this creative loop, that I could be working with amazing product teams, and, and making these huge leaps every week, and come up with ideas, get them out, see users love it, see metrics move, see our financials move weekly. That's a high that I miss. And when I'm in like the abyss, which is what I call any time in between those, I have a different kind of stress and anxiety.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  It's, it's not, like, my Oura ring is happy, and now, the most stress it shows is, is around my family, my five kids. And I'm like, I want it, I want my work stress in some way to, to trump my family's stress, and it's not. It's too, it's too calm. And I want to crowd out the time for investing or anything else. I want to be in the middle of this, like, just creative storm, you know, and, and I'm not. And so that's where I feel kind of antsy. It's like, I think it's like the cavemen, like, we were designed to get restless, and that makes us go out and hunt, you know?

• 34:32Shaan Puri?

  I definitely resonate with that. And, and when you had the Zynga thriller, you know, in some ways, you can always be chasing that feeling again, right? Because it's, it's such a entrepreneurial thrill ride, that you caught, you caught one of those waves, and you were surfing it. You may, you may be out there paddling in the ocean for, for another decade. You may never get another wave like that, but you, you want it, and you, you found yourself riding in it.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  And it's a bad addiction. I, in some ways, my life would be so much easier if I didn't have that addiction, because I could just go be a venture capitalist full-time, or, I don't know, a professor or something.

• 35:07Shaan Puri?

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• 35:35Shaan Puri?

  I want to ask you a different question. Uh, I kind of want to brainstorm with you, actually. You're a creative guy, and you talked about being in the right body of water. Right now, AI might be the right body of water, maybe you have a different definition. Where do you see the opportunities? Where do you get excited? Where do you brainstorm with a, with an entrepreneur right now, of what sort of products to build, what sort of experiences to build, what sort of problems to go try to solve? Where do you, what do you think that the moment is now for?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  I did a podcast with Gary Tan, and we started brainstorming like this, about, can we close our eyes and imagine two years from now, where the tokens that we use today are free? We, there might be an overall spend on tokens this higher, but the per-token spend, per kind of unit of intelligence, is going to, what we look at today will probably be close to free, it'll be like water. And then, I think we already passed the singularity, and, you know, I, I, sorry, but, I don't know if I can say the singularity, but I'd say we already passed AGI, but, the way

• 36:41Speaker 01

  it was defined. And so, if you could have a, a human on the, that was available 24/7 live, for anything you wanted, I think most of the time, we would take that, if, if they were available, knew the context. And so, so I get back to like, you know, that's why I kind of showed my, the front of my iPhone in the book, I don't know if you can see it there?

• 37:06Sam Parr?

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  And I said, "This is what makes me so optimistic about the consumer future, because..."

• 37:12Sam Parr?

  Well, your Nana, your Nana one was missing there. In the book, you had Nana.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, well, I, now, like, my, you know, she's 18 months, I don't need the, well, now they all sleep with me, so I, I don't even need the, the camera. But, but what I'd say is, like, half of that screen is empty, and the other half of it is generic apps. And maybe we won't even have the screen, right? So maybe I'm even dating myself with that. Uh, this will, this may not age well. But, either way, we will still do that, that digital life stack of those functions. We'll still want to know about the weather. We're still gonna want to look up your podcast, calendar, photos, whatever. And if there was a live human agent that was managing all that

• 38:00Speaker 01

  all the time, 24/7, I think we would use it, if it was free. And I think freemium will come back, because I think we would use it free. I do believe, I'm a, I'm an AI optimist, I also believe that jobs are gonna skyrocket, not be, not go away. And I think that we're going to be pulled into these services, and then we are gonna want to get to a human sometimes. Like, take travel, I think we could have an amazing travel agent, but when your flight was canceled, and you're trying to get home, you know, from London, and it's July 4th, and you're racing to

• 38:42Speaker 01

  like, rebook the next flight, I think in that moment, you'd probably pay $50 or $100 to have a human jump on, book it, get it right, trusted. Those are the zones that on some level kind of turn me on. And then the biggest thing I talk about in the book is this social cocktail party. I read studies about people, people, and people, and I'm with him. I think what we care about most across all these services is the social. And I think we're moving from consumptive to generative. I think that what the dopamine hit that we're gonna get, and we get already from being generative, is so many times bigger than the dopamine we get from consumptive entertainment.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  And we feel bad about ourselves. I got off Instagram. It was like a bad drug. It was giving me these very little value. Now X is my thing, and I love X, but now these reels, sometimes, they do such a good job of looping into others. And my daughter will come in and be like, "Dad, what are you doing?" I'm like, "I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just, I don't know, I'm, I'm watching Matthew McConaughey, and he's awesome, talking about July 4th. So, how can I not watch this?" And then they're stringing me into somebody else. But, it wasn't a good use to my time, and I, I don't feel good. I think that with AI...

• 40:05Speaker 01

  We are going to literally make music. You know, I think that we are going to look at Midjourney. The magic of Midjourney, I could make you guys believe I'm a good like home designer or logo designer. Just using Midjourney, it makes me more creative than I really am.

• 40:21Sam Parr?

  So the, I like the proven better new bit from the book. I mean, that's the one that's like one of the biggest pieces of the book. Can you kind of like close your eyes and put yourself in the position of like a 25 or 30 year old, a young person, you know, just like Mark was when he started Freeloader. You don't have a lot of money, but you have access to AI. Out loud, let's go through this framework of what you're going to do to figure out what you're going to work on in the next couple of weeks.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  I almost want to turn this to my whiteboards.

• 40:50Sam Parr?

  Awesome. Great. Great, great, great. This is fantastic.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:54Shaan Puri?

  Just, this is like showing us nudes for my family. This is like exactly what we like.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Okay. Whiteboard number one is what are we passionate about? Doesn't matter. Do not worry. Give zero about business or anything. Just, I mean, I'm passionate about surfing. Being a dad. Um, I am passionate about like cocktail parties. Connecting people. Uh, we call this swirging people together, like merging people. I love connecting disparate people and they form like interesting. I introduced two friends and they made the movie The Dissident. Like that turns me on. I just love to do that.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  So here's your passion board. So then, then we want to write like, what is a real business? Let's not forget about real businesses. What, what is on the internet or what are industries? They might be mature that are, that are making a lot of money. Like, you know, like that guy, uh, who started the peptide company. Okay. Peptides, they're making a lot of money. Um, but then you could put like, you know, online dating, you know, jobs, um, video games, like it doesn't matter. Just,

• 42:21Speaker 01

  what are just things that are addressable, that are real businesses? Okay? And then on your third board, you kind of Frankenstein these things and you say, well, okay, if I connected these boards, um, okay, uh, you know, I don't know, being a dad plus jobs or dating, you know?

• 42:50Shaan Puri?

  You're looking for the intersection of proven business with things you give a shit about.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  We're not at even the proven better new part yet, which is you, you come up with any mashup idea. Okay? That kind of turns you on and it could be like you're into agents or you're into Claude or what? You know, I'll give you like an example. Here's, here's a real life example for me. Okay? I invested in Raya and I found them because I was single. They were 60% DAUs to MAUs.

• 43:20Sam Parr?

  And Raya is a dating, is like Tinder, but for high profile people?

• 43:25Speaker 01

  It's, it's human curated online dating. Okay? So you have to apply. It's like the really high end social club that has facilities.

• 43:36Sam Parr?

  Like Soho House?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Like Soho House. Thanks. So it's like Soho House in a way. So it's curated. Um, you have to have an Instagram account and they have committees in each market.

• 43:47Sam Parr?

  Just famous, hot, rich, cool people only.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  That's the reputation. Okay?

• 43:52Sam Parr?

  Okay.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  It has grown beyond that. What it really is, is I like to say that, that online dating feels like a one out of 10 experience and Raya feels like a three out of 10. Like it's, it's still not great. I mean, I, I don't want to diss it because I, I'm an investor. I think we're one of the biggest equity investors and I think Raya is amazing. But the difference from the one to the three is that I found with just using these online dating apps, there was the same odds of second date if I went on the date or didn't go on the date. So it was like zero percent. So I was like, why don't I just not go? Cause I'm saving myself so much time and agony.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  And with Raya, it was not a waste of time. I had second dates and things and it just wasn't curated enough. Okay? So the point is the insight from that, that is human curation. So then the mashup is can we apply that same thing? And it's a lead business. You're, you're paying for lead generation. Well, could we apply that to anything else? Um, could we apply that to, I had an idea to create like a Lux BMB, like could we do human curated listings? Or what about human curated Uber? Like could we have a high end Uber where

• 45:15Speaker 01

  the, the black cars actually are black. They're not just colored black.

• 45:19Sam Parr?

  That's actually Sean, what you're talking about the other day with Jack's diner.

• 45:22Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. I don't know if you, Mark, have you ever heard of Jack's dining room? He's this, he's this Instagram kid who goes around the world. He's like, I'm at this place in Italy with the best gelato. And there's like a, you know, amazing visual hook for Instagram where there's like this crazy gelato thing that he's about to try. He tries it. And he just, he's trying to find the best foods of different genres in the best places around the world. And when I met him, I told him, I said, look, you're trying to cut these brand deals. Like, why don't, like, you should create the new Yelp. Because Yelp is this completely generic platform with everything. But if I trust you and I have trust as a service or curation as a service, human curation as a service. I would just, if I go to New York and I want the best ramen, I would trust Jack over Yelp.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  So let's, let's freeze frame on that. Okay? And now I'm like Professor Pincus. I did, I created a class at Stanford around this, two classes. And the students still didn't do that great. So it tells me either my framework's not perfect or I'm not the best teacher, but let's, let's freeze frame on that. Okay? So let's do proven better new on Yelp. So we say, okay, well, proven is let's not with anything about the way that Yelp displays listings, rates listings. Let's, let's do a legal copy of Yelp. It's, we're not going to change it. We're going to freeze and isolate and assume

• 46:44Speaker 01

  that Yelp has taken the time over the years to, to make that what the world wants most. Okay? So we copy that pixel for pixel. I mean, we copy their onboarding of a new user. Everything we copy it. Then we say, do we have anything that's better? Meaning 10 out of 10 users would say, yes, that's what I want. Not Yelp. We probably don't have that. Okay? Better is actually really hard to get to. What we think is better is new. So we probably are just proven and then some new ideas. I think our new idea here is human curated and probably can we human curate it first and get to,

• 47:28Speaker 01

  can we, can we take some slice, some verdict, some blade in a city? So we take, you know, Florence barber shops or, you know, Florence, maybe better is like coffee shops in Florence. We're going to go do that ourselves. And then put it side by side and test in some way and see whether people like ours better or not. Like there used to be tablet hotels, which was like a better version, cooler design hotels. Um, is that better or not? This is kind of the Brian Chesky way. Do it by hand first. If people don't like it better, you do not pass go. There's no reason to even

• 48:08Speaker 01

  try to build this in software. If they do, then we can start to use AI and say, is there a way to use AI agents to automate this? But that's a very, very secondary. The first is can we, can we get to a clearly better product experience? That's the hard part. That's the lightning in the bottle, not the AI. And, and then what I would tell Mark at 23 or 25 to do is just force yourself to do everything in AI right now. Like force yourself to code this to, you know, I've tried vibe coding. I've personally find cowork plus Claude code easier for, I get to more

• 48:51Speaker 01

  real things for myself, but, but force yourself to use it and see how far you can go. Creating agents as employees and other things. And then, and then do some like, hire some, in addition, hire some really cheap people who could just do some of this stuff by hand. You know, I would avoid founding a company around it. I would avoid hiring expensive engineers or people before I've connected all the dots.

• 49:21Sam Parr?

  Hey, you have this interesting kind of dichotomy about you, which is you seem like you're all about like going big and building these huge viral things that get big fast. But at the same time, in your book, I think you said, I think one of the titles is like big or something like that.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Well.

• 49:36Sam Parr?

  Scale. And it's like, you're like, it doesn't matter how many people you're going to get. You have to nail the product. And that's sort of what you're talking about right now. But also I know that you're big on goal setting. You have this, I forget what you call this. Do you call it a, I haven't written down here.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Book of life.

• 49:49Sam Parr?

  Book of life. Yeah. Which I want you, you have to explain that. That's pretty cool. But you have this like cool thing of like goal setting. So when you're ideating new companies, one of the things that kills ideas amongst successful entrepreneurs and new entrepreneurs is asking like, well, how big can this really get? And like, and like, that's always the challenge. People always ask that question. And like you said earlier, and we all know this to be true. You never really know. And whatever things can get big oftentimes shock you. No one really knows entirely. So do you set goals early on? And how do you deal with that thing in your head or with entrepreneurs you work with? Of like this constant like question of, well, how big can this get?

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's so hard and, and. And part of this book of life practice and part of this painful journey is killing our ego and our ego wanting, our ego is where the hope comes from, that we fall in love with the idea, we fall in love with the potential of it, and that works against us because we've gotta get to a very, very small, small use case that really works before we can do anything else. And I'm guilty of this too, and we tend to skip it. And we

• 51:06Speaker 01

  get so excited about the bigger macro, the bigger idea, the bigger body of water, and we get so committed to this. And it's part of the danger of AI and vibe coding, that we can build something in three months instead of a year or two. And so we do, and we skip testing it, and we don't set real objectives for ourself, like absolute objectives and goals that we hold ourselves accountable to. And the next thing you know, you're just kinda in this B plus relationship. And you don't love it. And all these things are paradoxes. On the one hand, I start the book talking about this book of life practice of that I've

• 51:46Speaker 01

  been doing since 1994, of really trying to have a conversation with yourself over time. And writing in this book for one period of time every year about the same things, so that you can go back and see, like, did you, what were your hopes and dreams? And have you done anything about them? And the real point that's come to me over all these years is not, do you achieve these goals, but are you attuning to these goals? And are you in alignment? Are you living in alignment with your goals? That I've found is more important to my well-being and happiness than achieving. So if my goal for 20 years has been to launch

• 52:31Speaker 01

  dot earth and create my version of the metaverse, which is different than Zuck's version, okay, cool. It's okay that I haven't done it, but have I gone for it? Or have I just talked about it? And that's, I say, these ideas and things haunt us, and over time weigh on us. Because like, I've had this idea, but I haven't ever done it. I've always wished I could do this. And the point of the book of life is, let's stop time. Let's stop time right now. And let's go to an absolute place and have a real, honest conversation with ourselves and say, you know, Sam, are you, are you serious about this desire? Or are you just [BLEEP]ing around? And if you're serious about it, well, what's wrong with

• 53:16Speaker 01

  you? Like, you're capable, you're a free human, and why in the last year have you, let's be honest, you haven't done shit about, Mark, every year you say you want to learn guitar. You know you could do it, but you don't. So why don't we just stop putting that down as a goal? Because you're not serious about it. Let's, I'm not gonna like, beat myself up, or I'm not gonna beat, you know, Mark 2025 up. And Mark 2025 did go for it, launched dot earth, and the version I launched wasn't right, and I pulled the plug on it. I'm good with that, you know? Like, it doesn't have to win for me to feel

• 53:56Speaker 01

  like I'm living a full life. I have to at least know I went for it. And that's, that's the point of the book of life.

• 54:03Shaan Puri?

  When, when did you start doing it?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  I started doing it in 1994. And I start the book off talking about this, that I had made a series of terrible career decisions, and I was being pushed out of this kind of fledgling venture capital firm. And there was nowhere to go to. Like, there wasn't like a next job. And so I'd kind of, kind of messed up my resume. I had nothing to lose when I started, a year later started my first company. But in 1994, I went to temple, I hadn't been to temple for the Jewish High Holidays, Jewish New Years for, since I was a kid. Someone invited me, I was in DC, and I sat there, didn't understand what

• 54:47Speaker 01

  anyone was saying or doing. And I just wrote in a notebook about how shitty my life was, and all the hopes and dreams that I hadn't pursued. And the thing that I came back to I hated most about myself, that represented just how little control I had over my life, was that I smoked cigarettes. And I was, part of my book of life practice is, what can we do this year that would make this a seminal year in our life? Like, what could the three of us do that you would remember this year for the rest of your life? And thank you. Because so many of our years, I can tell you at age 60, that there are years I can't write anything down for.

• 55:25Shaan Puri?

  Most years are like that, I feel.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  It's sad to not have something seminal, not one thing that's memorable about that year. And so I was like, okay, at least if I quit smoking, if I do a lifetime quit, I'll remember this year, and I think I'll be happy later that I did it. So I'm partnering with my future self. It's important enough, but it's, it's easy and in my control. And for me, that was, that was my path to changing my life.

• 55:54Sam Parr?

  Hey, are you, are you still doing, like, you know, you, you said it's sad that you don't have like a seminal year, you don't have this thing. And like, you know, Sean and I both have young kids, you have young kids too. I don't know how old your oldest is, but you have at least one young kid. I'm in the phase now of my life where I feel like a little bit treading water. And that's okay. Like, I'm like, I don't think that's sad. Like, you know, a kid being born is seminal, but I didn't achieve anything. It's not like I did that.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  No, it counts.

• 56:20Sam Parr?

  But I'm enjoying it. Are you still achieving great stuff? And are you still a dog, even after you've had kids?

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yes, but, but you also have to be realistic, because now you've, you've committed to be in service of raising these, these great humans. And that's, and that feels great too. And I think the best thing I've ever done in life is be a dad. And I think the greatest achievement in my life is my five kids. So every year that I've had a kid, that's been the seminal thing that year. And to your first question, yes, you can still achieve. It's just different than some of your friends that made different decisions. And you gotta stop comparing. But you can, I built Zynga while raising, you know, Carmen,

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Georgia, Wyatt, my third kid.

• 57:14Sam Parr?

  Hey, what was your schedule then to accommodate them? Taking a company public while still trying to be, it sounds like you've mentioned being a father many times. It sounds like that's super important to you. How did you balance the schedule?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  If you treat the things in your life like these are non-movable rocks, everything else becomes the river that moves around it. And, and it turns out that it's great modeling for your company to show that you are prioritizing your family. And like, if you ever walked into Zynga, you saw kids and dogs everywhere. And so people loved it. We, we worked really hard, and we played hard, and we familyed hard. And, and we integrated our kids and our pets. You know, we brought them to work, or we brought work to home. So the way I did is, my, my friend and coach Bing Gordon, he said, the most important thing is they are there for the first and last 15 minutes of their day, and they're always gonna remember

• 58:09Speaker 01

  that. And I, I made that like my religion. I was like, I'm never gonna miss

• 58:13Shaan Puri?

  Sacred, yeah.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  The first or last 15 minutes of their day. I'm never gonna miss breakfast with them. Hopefully not dinner, but I'll always do bedtime, bath and bedtime. And, and I did.

• 58:25Shaan Puri?

  It's so funny. So many of the things you say are echoed by other guests, but they came up with on their, in their own way, with their own words. But it's just, you know, we'd have to be dummies at this point, either listening to this podcast or doing this podcast to not pick up on some of these, you know, Ryan Smith, who did Qualtrics, and he owns The Jazz now. When I, I went out and visited him for the podcast and hung out at his house and stuff. And he goes, hey, let me just, he's like, I just gotta do one thing. It's gonna take me three minutes. And I was like, that's a weird number. I've never heard anyone say like, you know, you're going to, he's not going to the bathroom. He's got a task to do that's gonna take three minutes. What's, and he basically said, I have these three, three-minute interval, like, three-minute moments, I just make sure I'm fully present with my kids. And it's basically right before I drop, you know,

• 59:07Shaan Puri?

  dropping them off at school. Like, I'm not like half here, half in my mind, somewhere else. Like, I'm fully there. Three minutes right when they get home, and three minutes right before bed. He goes, this is the most important nine minutes of the day. Because you could be a busy guy, but you always got nine minutes. And if you could be fully, fully present. He's like, it's not like he's only doing nine minutes, but he's just make sure that's sacred.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Yes. My kids know, like, my 15-year-olds know, I will always answer when they call. Like, I'll be in the middle of this podcast, and they might call, and I might be like, guys, I gotta take this. So they just know they can always reach dad. And there's, there's like a, a priority that they get, you know? They, they feel that. And some of this stuff carries over, I think, to like management principles. Like, I, my policy at Zynga was, I will always read and respond to your email, to everyone in the company. We got to, I don't know, 3,500, 4,000 employees globally. And it was a lot. But I said, I'm always gonna read and respond to your email. And, and now I kinda try to, I come close to pretty

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  much do that on, on X, that anyone listening, if they go to my X, at Mark Pink, I'll, I'll pretty much reply to everybody. I probably don't hit it 100% of the time, but I'm probably like 95% of the time. And so there's, there's an availability that we can prioritize that's important in life. So, yeah, I'm, I'm on that.

• 1:00:31Shaan Puri?

  Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury. They make the world's best banking product. I think you know this already. I use Mercury for all of my businesses. I think I have like maybe seven or eight businesses. We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them. And now they actually just launched a personal banking account. So I have my personal account there. I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase. I'm just all in on Mercury. Why? I like products that are easy to use. I like products that get me and the problems that I have. So like, very easy to make a joint account with my wife. Very easy to spin up virtual cards. One click, and I get savings yield. It just has all the stuff that I need in one place. So if you're looking for the best banking product on the market, it's definitely Mercury. I will fistfight anybody who disagrees with me on that. Go to mercury.com slash personal and learn more. Mercury is a fintech, not

• 1:01:15Shaan Puri?

  an FDIC insured bank. Banking services are provided through Choice Financial Group and Callum N A, members FDIC. Can I ask you a question? You know, I'm a framework guy. So whenever you have these frameworks, I love it. At the same time, some of my friends who are much better entrepreneurs than me don't use any of these frameworks. They just sort of operate on pure instinct and sort of following their nose. Did you start Zynga by doing all this stuff, mapping out your passions and then cross referencing it with proven models or, you know, existing business models? Or did you just, now you think about it this way? Or did you create your biggest hits doing this?

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Like most people, this was all going on, but it wasn't written down. So I didn't just set out to show that I could make a poker app on the Facebook. Like I was 41, you know, I think my friends, peers thought I had no dignity then. It was, this was not like impressive. I mean, I did it because I had, my ego had been so beaten down at Tribe that I had to do something small that worked. I just like, I need to do something that worked. But I wasn't gonna just make, like at the time, the obvious apps to make were these wall apps and these throw a drink, these pokes. I wasn't gonna do that. I wasn't gonna, that's what was working,

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  okay? Poker was not working. Games were not working on the Facebook ecosystem. I did it because I saw this ocean, I saw two oceans, you know, two bodies of water, social networking and video games. So I was thinking, okay, if this works, it opens a little crack into mass market casual gaming. And I had this belief, one of the things I talk about in the book that I just fucking love, and I will encourage your listeners to consider, this is available to all of us all the time. Find a mature market that's over, that's done,

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  that's dead, that's been played out. Online dating, you know, eBay with listings, or analog businesses that are not attractive, they're almost not investable, like VCs won't like them, they're, they're red oceans, they're not growth markets. Find a market like that, but it has a lot of money in it, and it has a proven behavior in it, and that's video gaming. By the way, here's a gift, here's an Easter egg, take video gaming. In 2007, it was a $23 billion industry, it was barely growing, there was no, it wasn't a top 10 behavior on the consumer web, and it was stupid to go into. People, no, it was not fundable, okay? Here we are, 19 years later, it's a $283 billion industry that's not fundable,

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  okay? It's not growing, it's mature, you'd have a really tough time getting a VC to fund it. Perfect place to try to do something innovative, because if you can find a new dimension to this that sparks people, you, you don't have to prove that anyone's gonna do it, or wants it, or is gonna spend money on it. It's unlimited, right? And that was search when Google showed up. So I do love that, and I was thinking like that when I started Zynga, because the year or two before, I was trying to buy CNET, they were a public company, and I said, I need a gigantic captive consumer audience to test ideas like gaming.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  I need to solve distribution. Consumer was not investable because of distribution. Today, consumer is not investable because of distribution. It's a perfect parallel. The new thing then was social networking, the new thing today is AI and agents. This is like a mirror, you know, in time. So we are living today in 2007. Go for it. Consumer's not investable. Do consumer.

• 1:05:08Shaan Puri?

  You've made these bold claims multiple times, and I love that. You've, like, you did it with investing. You said, like, I believe this. You have a point of view, which I like. And I think people who have points of view, where they're confident, they're either stupid, or they're like well-read and educated, and that has shaped it, their point of view, and that's why they're confident. You seem in that category. Do you have any good, like, honeypots of information that you consume on a regular basis that aren't well-known, that you could fill us in on? Like, people you follow on Twitter, people you follow on Substack, books, newspapers, anything that shapes how you think?

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, yeah, there's, they're really wide-ranging and disparate. I gravitate towards people that have, you know, non-mainstream, more contrarian views. I love everything Peter Thiel says, like, it's like catnip for me. I just heard him talk, and he's, he's saying that we've lived in this 50 years of stagnation, even though the economy, GDP, stock market's up so much. When we think about how people live, and how our parents, the gap in how our parents live versus their parents, we didn't see that gap again from our parents

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  to us, and now the next generation, like the, the kids of the 90s and the early 2000s, they don't look at their life and opportunity. You know, if our parents were in the 19, or my parents, you know, in the 1960s and 70s, their parents were in the 1930s and 40s, and you think about that difference, and it's just, the middle class was formed and so much. And so Peter's kind of coming at this thing from the same problem, but the opposite side of like, the democratic socialists and the far-left progressive Democrats. And he's saying, the only solution is growth. We've got to grow the economy and grow the opportunity

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  base for the middle class and for people in order to save capitalism and democracy. And I thought, I hadn't thought about it that way, because I think of the last 50 years as unbelievable growth, and in the worldwide standards of living, and in technology, and, you know, stock markets and all these things. But, but I thought that was really brilliant insight that's got me thinking. But I'd say that who I follow, I love Pirate Wires, you know, Mike Slano, and there's, there's so many insights that Dave had early that were not mainstream, you know, that have changed my thinking.

• 1:07:55Shaan Puri?

  Do you read a lot of books? What genre of books do you like?

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  I have a lot of trouble reading books. I do books on tape. I'll tell you that I listen to a lot of podcasts while I'm walking or driving, but I get a lot, and I connect with a lot of friends around social, political issues first, where we have, you know, non-mainstream views. I mean, like, I came out for Trump, you know, a few days before the election. That was not a mainstream or popular thing in my community to do. But I guess I pay a lot of attention to people that break through in any way in consumer. That's probably something that I pay more attention to. And I think it was announced like, two weeks ago or something,

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  I invest in this company, FOMO. That's, when I find, the resume for me in consumer is traction. I have no idea who or why. I mean, but when I cold-milled Shane at Polymarket on Twitter, when they broke through. So, you know, I, I would pay a lot of attention to anyone who's getting heat in consumer, because it's so broken and it's so rare. So, you know, I think those are good leads. And I do, I get a lot of macro and stock investment ideas on X.

• 1:09:15Shaan Puri?

  Have you outperformed the index over the last 10 years, you think?

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Last year, I definitely did. But, but no, I can't say, I don't, I gotta look at the last 10 years. I don't know if I've outperformed the index. I probably, I haven't this year.

• 1:09:30Shaan Puri?

  We've had more fun and memories, and that's what counts? You probably beat the 2, you beat 2% maybe?

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  I'm way behind. I think this year, I'm up like, 4.5%. Not, I was, I got a big distribution of SpaceX. I don't include that in my returns, because that was a private investment, you know? So not including SpaceX, I think I'm up like, 4 and change. And I think that the market's up probably like, I don't know, 3, 2 or 3 times that. So I'm not, you don't want to follow me this year.

• 1:10:04Shaan Puri?

  One thing I really like about you is, you're very, so you're insightful, that's great. The second thing is, I like some of the kind of life wisdom, like the book of life practice, and having an honest conversation with yourself. I think ultimately, that's actually the most useful thing that any of us could go do. And then the other thing I like is that you are, you're not one of these people who makes everyone feel bad because you're so disciplined. I like that you're a little not disciplined, and you do some stuff you shouldn't do, or you're doing things for other reasons than just like what's purely utilitarian and optimal. And, and I like that, because a lot of times, people come on this podcast, and I'm like, I should be doing this, should be, we should all over ourselves.

• 1:10:41Sam Parr?

  You're like this strange amalgamation of like, investor, punk rock, consumer, good dad, like, it's a very rare, you have this very weird...

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  That's why I was like, so misunderstood by the media, you know, when, when Reid Hoffman said to me, Mark, what's your narrative? What, what's your three bullets? And I'm like, I don't know, I don't have one. He said, well, either you make that up, or they're gonna for you. And I think he said before we started, that, that when you, when Zynga was big, you saw me as this villain. I think that I'm authentic and nuanced. And people will meet me in person, or hear me talk, and they'll say, wow, I really connected with you, I really like you. And I'm like, thank you. But it feels like this backhanded compliment, because they, they really mean like...

• 1:11:28Shaan Puri?

  I'd hate you.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, what I Googled about you was so bad. When I first started dating my partner, Hillary, I said... Just do both of us a favor, just don't Google me, because you're not gonna like anything you read.

• 1:11:40Sam Parr?

  Yeah, I'm trying to understand why people hated you. I'm trying to like, not hated you, but by villain. But like, did you wear a lot of black? I don't know, like, what, what?

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  I don't even think I saw my black t-shirt yet. I, no, it's, I, I was telling you this before, that all I cared about was winning. All I cared about, and winning was in the eyes of like a teenage girl or a middle-aged woman, you know, who wanted to play one of our games, and they weren't gonna read this, they're not reading the Wall Street Journal. I hired a PR firm to keep us out of the press, and when we were in the press, to, to dampen down the story. Because I just, we had figured something out with user pay, and I didn't wanna like, go announce it to the world. And we were just trying to win as many sprints as we could before

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  inviting a lot of competition and venture and every, we were buying a company every month. You know, a lot of the companies we bought, you know, no one else was bidding on them.

• 1:12:36Sam Parr?

  You bought the company that became Farmville, right?

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Well, not really. I, the real story is that I couldn't get anyone in Zynga to build Farmville, because they thought it wasn't cool. They wanted to build like Coasterville, Cafe World, and nobody in video gaming wanted to make a farm simulation game. That was not, there was nothing less cool.

• 1:12:58Sam Parr?

  Why, why did you want to make it?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  I wasn't from video gaming. I wanted, I had a farm fantasy. I wanted to create Pincus Valley Ranch and, you know, have our vegetables served to Chez Panisse, you know. So I had that fantasy, and I have four sisters, and I feel like I really connect with middle-aged women. I'm like, I don't want Twitch, you know, fast-moving games. I want something I don't have to pay any attention to. I don't have to pay any attention to a farm, you know. I just, I wanted that game, and I thought that would be the game that could appeal to anyone in the world, because nobody needed instructions on how to play. Bing won't admit it, but he tried to convince me not to build it, even from a business standpoint. He was like,

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  farm simulations never do well, Mark. And, and I, I finally bought this little failed flash gaming company, because they had four flash engineers. And then I put them and like, four or five other people in an alcove outside my office, and checked in with them every day, and we built Farmville together in six weeks.

• 1:14:02Sam Parr?

  Did it come out the gate hot? What was day one, day two?

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  You know, we were gonna buy this company that made Farm Town, and the guy was, to be honest, kind of a jerk. And he had the right to be a jerk. He was, he was winning. I think he doubled the price he wanted, from like forty million to eighty million, and he had the right. But we were building our own version, and we took out some of the things we didn't like in his game. So ours was not proven better new, it was proven better less. So our crops were better than his, our art and math were better. And we, we had more polish, but that was it. And we took out the stranger danger part. He had ways to meet other community members, and we just thought our users didn't want that.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  So we turned it, I said, on a Friday, I had a tough call with him. I said, you know, I don't think this is gonna work, we're, we're not gonna buy you. And, and our game, our team was like, Mark, this is ready to go. And so then on Sunday, we turned on Farmville. And it was one of those lightning in a bottle things that, for some reason, so many things with Zynga just worked, and which isn't great to hear, because how do you repeat that? But we turned on Farmville, and I think it did like a hundred and seventy-one thousand installs the first day with no marketing. It was just viral. It just was viral. And, and we were doing like a million installs a day by the end of the first week with no marketing.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  And, you know, we passed Farm Town within like three or four weeks. They were at like four million DAUs.

• 1:15:36Sam Parr?

  What, what was the peak, the absolute peak of Farmville? What was it doing?

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  I think it peaked at like thirty or thirty-two million DAUs, and at its peak, I think like fifteen or twenty percent of people on Facebook were using it or had used it.

• 1:15:52Sam Parr?

  And what did it make in terms of revenue at that game?

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  Farmville 2 came out with a lot more lessons and mechanics and made more revenues. You know, I know Farmville 2 did over a billion in revenues. No, no one at that time thought a video game, you know, definitely not a casual video game, could do over a billion in revenues. And I remember trying to explain that to Fidelity. I'm like, that's gonna be a normal thing, like, three million a day, baby. That's gonna be the new benchmark for a good game. But you had a question I really liked that was like, the beginning of this whole thread. So I hired this PR firm, because I said, I don't want to have my fur coat moment. I don't want to be on the cover of Fortune. And the fur coat moment came from that movie, American Gangster.

• 1:16:38Sam Parr?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  When he's in the front row at the boxing match, in the fur coat, he's on the front page of the New York Times. And he's, everything goes downhill from there. Like, I don't want to be on the front page of anything.

• 1:16:47Sam Parr?

  And the police are like, this young black guy wearing a fur coat in the front row, this, he must be something.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:52Sam Parr?

  What's his situation?

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  I was the equivalent of that. This forty-one-year-old retired guy that's not supposed to be doing anything important. That's when people were writing articles saying, can you back a founder under, you know, over thirty in consumer? And so I just didn't fit the narrative. I was a counterfactual, and consumer wasn't supposed to be working. And so our financial performance was a trade secret. I wouldn't tell investors. I said, you, I'm gonna tell you a price, you decide if you want to invest. Afterwards, I'll show you our financials, and if you don't like it, you can get out. But if, if they're not better than you think. Which obviously made people even want to invest more, when you say that, you know.

• 1:17:37Sam Parr?

  Wait, what was your, what was your first five years' revenue and profit?

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  I mean, we went public, we were forced to go public after four years. I mean, we had over a billion dollars in cash on our balance sheet when we went public. We had never spent a dollar that we raised in capital from, I didn't know we wouldn't spend it, but and, and I think that the year before we went public, I think we did like

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  four hundred and fifty million in free cash flow.

• 1:18:04Sam Parr?

  Oh my gosh. So in year three, you're doing four hundred and fifty million in free, free cash flow? Is that what you just said?

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  That might have been year four, yeah. I mean, we started in mid-July of oh seven, so oh seven wasn't like a full year. You know, we did like maybe a million and a half in oh seven.

• 1:18:20Sam Parr?

  Of cash flow or revenue?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Revenue, revenue. I mean, we were cash flowing, maybe it did more than that revenue, because by October, November, we were making like two hundred thousand a month in cash flow. We in oh eight, we did like thirty-eight million in revenues, and we probably made like, I don't know, twelve or fifteen million in cash flow. But, but we were, we were putting all that money. We were putting it into big data and then data centers. And then we were raising more and more money, because I didn't want to ever slow down. But, but my point is, I let our story be told by our competitors, and by press I didn't talk to. And I'm kind of nuanced, and Zynga was nuanced.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  And so I let the story go out that we're making all money from advertising, but it was really user pay. And I was fine with that. I didn't want to say, no, you're wrong. And then Michael Arrington wrote for TechCrunch, a whole series called Scamville. They said, they must be making all their money from these really scammy ads they're showing. And they were no different than the ads on Google, but we also were not, all of our money was user pay. And I didn't want to come out and say, no, you idiot, we're making money from our whales, you know. And, and then Arrington, who I'm friends with, I'm an investor in his fund now, he used Cityville, he played Cityville. He spent five hundred and fifty dollars in the game. And then he said, I'm so sorry, I was wrong.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  I get it, why adults would spend money in your games now. Because remember, there was no in-app purchase yet, and so all of the adults were like, there's no way adults are paying money for art. But we had, you know, a nurse in Indiana spending a couple thousand dollars a month in Farmville, and this was her hobby. And maybe her husband was spending more than that, you know, to go fishing and skiing and hunting. This was her hobby, and so we reframe this as, we are helping to nurture a hobby somebody has. And this is a small amount to spend on a hobby, whereas, you know, for a video game, it was a lot.

• 1:20:23Sam Parr?

  Right.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  And I did not do myself any favors. I did not go on press tours. I didn't talk to investors. I said, I'm going to be selfish to our users and our employees. I'm not gonna talk to anybody else, ever. My kids, my players, my employees. And so my, everyone else told the story, and it was and, and we fired a lot of people, and they were out telling our story, because I had a meritocracy, a forced curve. We forced you to rate ten percent of your team as a low performer every quarter. And if you were two quarters in a row, you're fired without question or exception.

• 1:21:00Sam Parr?

  Wow, that's, you also have, I, I have one other theory for that, which is you have the Nickelback problem. Like, if you've ever heard of like a Veblen good, it's like a good where the demand goes up, the more the price goes up. Uh, there's like, the Nickelback problem is basically, um, everybody hates Nickelback and wants to shit on it. It's like an easy, it's a easy thing to look down on. You look cool for looking down on it, but yet somehow they'll sell millions of records. You know, nobody knows them, but somehow they're selling millions and millions of records. Like, it was never cool to say, I love Farmville. Uh, yeah, I play, I love to play Farmville, and, but, but somehow everybody's playing, but nobody wanted to say it was cool. So you, you had a little bit of a problem there.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Video game, video game industry hated me. I was like the Darth Vader, so it didn't help either.

• 1:21:40Sam Parr?

  Exactly.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  They said, you're not real games. We're never gonna give you an award or invite you to GDC. I was like, that's cool. They, none of my users go to GDC.

• 1:21:49Sam Parr?

  There's this article, I'm looking at old articles of you, there's one from two thousand and eleven. And it says, old Mark Pincus had a farm, and it's a picture of you, you look like a motorcycle, a guy, like with your boots up, like overlooking the city, like you're you had, you had that swag that you talked about with Zuck. I mean, you had swag, and you looked pretty cool, and you kind of had like a you, I'm gonna win, like, smile on your face. And I think that's kind of cool, but also that will be, that will rub some people the wrong way.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there was a great, uh, tweet that I love by this guy yesterday. He, he has some company called like Tiny. Co or something?

• 1:22:26Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, Andrew Wilkinson. That's our, it's our good friend.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  I loved his tweet and he referenced the courage to be disliked and he said, he said it was a huge turning point for him when he stopped trying to be liked and he stopped trying to be like Warren Buffett and worry about his reputation, basically his resume. I'm like, yes, that's, that's my career and that's what I advise people. I'm like, burn your resume. Don't look for respect from your peers. I say, if you're truly ambitious, do not look for respect from the people around you because you will not get it if you're doing things differently than them because they don't like that. I mean, you're supposed to like stick to this one mold and, and if you do something different, just like you were saying, Sam, and it works,

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  it makes them question themselves. So they don't, they kind of don't want to see you succeed, do it. It's like, it's like, but I paid all these dues and I don't want you to make it without paying the same dues because I'm in a job I hate. You're supposed to be in a job you hate or else I didn't have to do this.

• 1:23:27Sam Parr?

  A lot of people made fun of Mark Andreessen because he had that thing where he says like, no one successful is introspective, which I thought was, I disagree with him. I think that's kind of silly. That was a very introspective thing of him to say, but you are, you are an example of someone who, uh, I think you live life fairly intentional and fairly introspective and trying to like, live like a full, good life while also you have this like swag about you, but also bull in the china shop, like this like really cool dichotomy that I think is like very admirable and really exciting.

• 1:23:56Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. You got like the California woo woo and then Zynga and your stuff is so, was so metrics driven. You were like the most metrics driven company of anyone. If I ever wanted to hire somebody who I knew would be like super metrics driven on the product side, Zynga was the, the perfect pool to go hire from because you guys had like a Navy SEAL training for, for PMs. It was unbelievable.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  They still do it. I'm happy to say. I do want to say it was just what you're saying, Sam, that it felt a little like funny and bad to come out with my book, like pretty much the same week that Andreessen and the All In guys, they all started saying how it's a waste of time to be introspective and.

• 1:24:34Shaan Puri?

  Hey, shout out your book, man. Uh, can you show it? Show your, show your book and shout it out.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Okay. I, I do have one copy. Uh, Life at the Speed of, Life at the Speed of Play. There, there was something on the All In where they're talking about how, I forget the word. They, they say contemplation is, is a total

• 1:24:51Shaan Puri?

  rumination.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  Waste of time.

• 1:24:53Sam Parr?

  This is obviously an example of smart people saying dumb things. That's just a really stupid thing.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Or, or it's right for them. I mean, it's, I don't think there is.

• 1:24:59Sam Parr?

  But that's not what they do. I just saw a thing about Chamath saying, being retroactive, looking at his time doing SPACs.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes. Well, Chamath is, is a lot of things, but he has no problem whatsoever contradicting himself. I mean, I heard them all talk about how AI was going to put everyone out of work. And now they're proudly saying, like, I think just yesterday I saw something from them saying, that's bullshit. Look, the facts don't support it. AI is not putting anyone out of work. I'm like, but you guys were the ones saying it. And I kind of love that they don't care. They'll just contradict themselves, you know, a few months later and they don't, they're not self referential. So in that sense, there's a freedom to it. I'm not tied to what I said three months ago. I'm, I'm pounding the table now on the opposite point of view and.

• 1:25:50Shaan Puri?

  Unless I'm right, then I'll show a clip.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I, I, I, I do think there's a mix of all of it. I, I think holding yourself accountable to real things in the world is useful tool used in the right way. Um, and sometimes you should just go do stuff.

• 1:26:10Shaan Puri?

  All right. Well, we should leave it at that.

• 1:26:11Sam Parr?

  You're awesome, man. You didn't try to earn our respect, but you certainly have it.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  I really like talking to you guys.

• 1:26:17Sam Parr?

  We'll wrap up here. That's it. That's the pod.

• 1:26:29Shaan Puri?

  All right. Let's take a quick break to talk about a podcast because if you're listening to this, you like podcasts and what's better than one podcast? Another podcast. And let me tell you, another podcast you should check out. It's called Success Story. If you like hearing about different success stories and hearing Q and A sessions with successful business leaders or hearing keynote presentations or just checking out conversations about sales and business and marketing tactics is a great podcast for you. So check it out wherever you get your podcasts.