553 - Ohio, Let’s Say

This week, Georgia covers the story of Tilikum, the killer whale. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  911, what's your emergency?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 0:19Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 0:23Speaker 03

  Hell, sin swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 0:27Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 0:37Speaker 00

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• 1:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello and welcome.

• 1:47Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 1:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're full of beans today, if you don't mind.

• 1:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I forgot to... I have these caffeine pouches that you suck on that I forgot to take. That's why I'm so fucking tired.

• 2:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's get you off those pouches.

• 2:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I need to get on them, because I forgot to take it.

• 2:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Just drink that as fast as you can. Georgia's gonna chug, chug.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 2:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember back in the days? Chug it.

• 2:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Full of beans. That's full of shit, right?

• 2:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what that means?

• 2:19Karen Kilgariff?

  For the children.

• 2:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 2:20Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're gonna yell at children with a smile on your face, you don't get to say shit. Did you know I have seven children? Isn't that crazy? And never talk about them.

• 2:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. What are their names? Name them all.

• 2:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Danny. That's a boy. And then there's a Danny girl.

• 2:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 2:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Because we were so drunk when they were born. Twins. And of course Maurice.

• 2:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't ever forget Maurice.

• 2:43Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't.

• 2:44Georgia Hardstark?

  He rages if you don't.

• 2:46Karen Kilgariff?

  George Frank Blossom. Mimi.

• 2:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Elvis.

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 2:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Mo.

• 2:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Mo.

• 2:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Kevin.

• 2:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Kevin.

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, Pete Kevin.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this is a podcast.

• 3:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, we're on...

• 3:02Georgia Hardstark?

  For real.

• 3:03Karen Kilgariff?

  We're on people's televisions right now in some homes.

• 3:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We're on the main stage.

• 3:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. Can we turn out a little more? Because let's let people see your sweater. Let's clear that mic.

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing. It's a child's vintage sweater. It's too tight and it's uncomfortable, but I just needed to wear it.

• 3:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 3:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's tight. It's real tight. But it's pretty like... It reminds me of the island story that I did that one time.

• 3:30Karen Kilgariff?

  The island of the blue dolphins?

• 3:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no. The one...

• 3:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Island...

• 3:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I curse you with my dying breath?

• 3:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 3:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, um...

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's got a good name.

• 3:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not Guantanamo.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  The Gu...

• 3:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Galapagos.

• 3:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No. The Galapagos...

• 3:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Galapagos Affair.

• 3:47Georgia Hardstark?

  The Galapagos Affair.

• 3:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I said it first.

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 3:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you worn that before? I feel like I've never seen it.

• 3:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 3:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really good.

• 3:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I've been saving it. And it actually ties into my story. That's why I'm...

• 3:56Karen Kilgariff?

  If I had the longest arm ever, I could reach in and see what the label is?

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gone, but it's definitely a child's...

• 4:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you see this?

• 4:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You're very small.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not tiny. I am so... I'm busting out of this thing. There's... It shouldn't be on me at all.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  There's actually a lace-up back that you're trying to close. Yeah.

• 4:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you see there was a woman in, like, you know, Ohio, let's say, who found... That's like, you know, somewhere.

• 4:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Could be Vermont.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Who... Okay, her grandfather had a department store in the, like, 50s through the 90s, and she inherited the warehouses full of the back stock that never went out.

• 4:34Karen Kilgariff?

  From the 50s to the 90s?

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. And she's posting it all for sale. I bought a couple things.

• 4:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 4:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's everything from, like, the alarm clock that your mom had in its original box, to like tapestries, tons of garter belts and, like, undies and bullet bras, and just like the craziest shit. It's called Opah's something. Can you look that up for me? Opah's treasure.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Opah.

• 4:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, your opah.

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah. A Greek grandfather.

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That, first of all, made my mouth start watering just as you were like a woman's grandfather. And then I was like, this is gonna be good.

• 5:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Something's good.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  But that idea... There is a portal opening there with people going to be... Being able to suddenly go back and have in their hands the thing they've missed and wanted.

• 5:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And of course, for all us fucking weirdos, the original box.

• 5:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 5:23Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the most important part of vintage shopping.

• 5:27Karen Kilgariff?

  The true time travel of

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 5:29Karen Kilgariff?

  the way it used to be in the box.

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Original box, original, like, manual.

• 5:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 5:33Georgia Hardstark?

  There's like roller skates. There's just... It's crazy.

• 5:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I've got to be a part of this.

• 5:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You must. I bought a thermos. I bought a fucking brand-new dead stock.

• 5:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Was it Holly Hobby on it?

• 5:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Thermos. No. It's like, it's like, you know, windsurfing. 70s, like, windsurfing. It's so rad.

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I argue that that would be... Well, maybe it's late 70s, early 80s?

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even think there's windsurfing on it, but it's got that vibe. You know what I mean?

• 5:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It just made you think of windsurfing.

• 5:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It just reminds you of windsurfing. You know, you have a thermos.

• 6:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Were you looking in the mirror?

• 6:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm having a real windsurfing moment. Fall.

• 6:07Karen Kilgariff?

  You have got...

• 6:07Georgia Hardstark?

  A fall girl.

• 6:08Karen Kilgariff?

  You're a coastal grandma all the way. It's time.

• 6:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I really am.

• 6:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Or you have a coastal grandma knitting you clothes.

• 6:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 6:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Is there a brick-and-mortar location?

• 6:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No. She's just posting it on this, like, messy website for sale that's like... It's so clear that she's just like, shit, I don't know what to do with all this stuff. Just throwing it on, it's like...

• 6:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And are you in any way worried that if you don't gatekeep this from the murderitos, they're gonna go buy a...

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I've done a couple search... I bought what I wanted to buy. I've done it already before. I told everyone.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 6:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So, sorry. You're welcome.

• 6:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You cleared it.

• 6:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Molly found it. It's called Opah's Vintage Gal.

• 6:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Gal.

• 6:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And go buy your weird stuff that's like made of asbestos and mothballs.

• 6:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, be very careful. There's certain dishes you can't have because there's lead in them.

• 6:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't do the cocaine that you buy from there.

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  If you find little bags of cocaine inside a record sleeve, it's not for you. That's for another time. And also, it's just... It's baking soda level strength.

• 7:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or it's those things that come with the clothes that your cats try to eat.

• 7:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh yeah, the silica gel pack?

• 7:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, speaking of don't eat these poisonous things.

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 7:16Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a Tylenol poisoning update.

• 7:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible.

• 7:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So incredible. So I covered the Chicago Tylenol poisonings in episode 43 in arrears, which I now know what that means, thanks to you. And it's been in one of those cases that has just always stuck with us. You know, it's just, who fucking did it? I would have... I would have bet money on Ted Kaczynski just because of the connections. However, recently, a man who was found dead from suicide by cyanide poisoning in an Idaho church back in December of 1982 has been identified through DNA as Dr. Matthew Francis Bukowski. And so Bukowski was a chemist who had struggled with mental health issues and who had gone missing from Jacksonville, Florida that same year in 1982. Over the course of their reopen investigation,

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  police learned that he had been preoccupied with cyanide and that he spoke at work about how easy it would be to tamper with over-the-counter medicine. So they found him in December. The poisonings happened in, like, September, I believe. So super close.

• 8:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  When going through his possessions, investigators found maps of Chicago where the Tylenol poisonings had taken place. Those murders began, as I said, in September of 1982, just three months before Bukowski was found dead, never identified. His family was originally from LA and was prominent. His grandfather had been a city council member. Investigators have not officially named him as a suspect in the Tylenol poisonings, but have announced that, quote, "connection." So I think we're gonna get more information and, you know, how easy I am to believe things. I buy it.

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's adding up.

• 8:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It all adds up until it falls apart.

• 8:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Also, just for a case that had no suspects, no answers, no nothing, to have an area where clearly investigators were like, we have hit upon something meaningful. That's why it's made it to the news.

• 9:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And a mystery on a mystery. Like, they found this guy and for decades, they didn't know who he was. And it turns out just these weird little connections that someone made.

• 9:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Here's what is a true trip, I think probably for, especially the younger people that listen to the show. For most of my young life, there was no tamper-proof anything on any medicine. And he... This doctor was right. And it's almost like the worst part of him took over, like a Jekyll and Hyde thing. The doctor part of him was like, this is not safe. And then it's like, I'll make it not safe?

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine, like, being at the water cooler?

• 9:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Allegedly.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Allegedly.

• 9:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine being at the water cooler and someone just dropping that, hey, you know how you could kill a lot of people really easily? And like, oh shit.

• 9:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And you hold it for years because the vibe of it is so bad that you're like, I absolutely will never forget when he said that to me.

• 9:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And then he went missing.

• 9:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Yeah.

• 9:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Creepy.

• 10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Very interesting.

• 10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know how to get into the Cornell 7.

• 10:08Georgia Hardstark?

  We just have to get into it because we need to talk about it.

• 10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We're all on social media, some of us to a terrible degree, where we're buying foundation online and then it doesn't match our skin. But here's the experience that I had yesterday in watching it, hearing about it, hearing everything. There was a guy who went in and read the, I believe it's an affidavit or some sort of official statement that was, say, it was 40 pages long and he kept saying pages 23 to 27 almost made me throw up at my desk. So we don't know what actually happened technically. And for people that we are in the media, we can't be saying what happened. We don't know, but we know what people close to it are saying. We know what student reporters at that Cornell student newspaper.

• 10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We know what Jane Doe is saying.

• 10:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And we know what Jane Doe is saying.

• 10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And we believe that because, and I love this moment, we are all Jane Doe.

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  We're all Jane Doe.

• 11:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And that idea that some fucked up person thinks they're going to expose Jane Doe for some reason will, to me, ignite finally, I think, in this country. It's like, how much further can you push women to be like, sorry, you're going to do that for what reason? How will that serve anything? What are you talking about? So watching video after video of women being like, I'm Jane Doe.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I've never seen anything like that in my life.

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, you have. Me too. That's why I'm so sorry to be so cynical, but yes, we have. It doesn't, I just feel like it doesn't fucking change. We just keep having these fucking instances. Brock Turner, like, that should have fucking taught everyone a lesson.

• 11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  But, sorry, who's it going to teach a lesson to? The lesson is not going to go to the rapist.

• 11:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Not the rapist. I mean, that like, that women somehow get to start not being afraid.

• 11:59Karen Kilgariff?

  By joining up together.

• 12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the, that's the way. And before, I think Me Too was like a social media version, which was all very new. It was brand new. It doesn't catch fire the first time. You have to hit that match and hit that match. What I'm saying is, this seems different to me.

• 12:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, the women that are watching everything are not watching passively anymore and they're not watching as if it's somebody else anymore.

• 12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what it feels like to me.

• 12:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I hope so. It definitely, it feels like it could be something huge if we, if we make it that.

• 12:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that women are just, with every horrifying experience, it's not saying it makes anything better. It's just saying women are uniting.

• 12:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's less and less happening that people are able to be manipulated at the outset by, here, we're going to string up this witch.

• 12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 12:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That is not happening in a way that I think is very different, even from the Me Too movement.

• 12:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that became, look at how crazy and fucked this is. But when we're talking about coordinated gang rape that then gets put on a text thread with 50 fucking seven people, that's what people are saying, expose it, stand up against it.

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Get pissed off about it.

• 13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I love that. And teach your sons just to not be fucking rapists.

• 13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Give a shit about what they're doing.

• 13:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. To stand up against them. Not even, don't be a rapist. Stand up against the wrongdoings that you see.

• 13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And of course, we have to say this is all alleged. And also, we are recording this a week before this comes out, just to keep that in mind.

• 13:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Also, I think it would be much easier for people to talk about stuff like this if journalists had jobs, if newspapers were not owned or all shut down.

• 13:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And if our president wasn't a rapist, too.

• 13:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, if the rape culture wasn't absolutely celebrated and then ignored and then celebrated and then wrestling on the lawn.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of that. Now, let's podcast.

• 14:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, here's the thing. It's a true crime podcast and this is a serious fucking crime.

• 14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly crime.

• 14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a real bad crime that people have to start feeling is a real bad crime.

• 14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And also believing women when they say, your friend is creepy. Don't leave me alone with him.

• 14:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 14:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, then they're not friends with that person anymore.

• 14:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 14:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's like, it's the thing of like, every woman knows someone who was sexually assaulted, but men don't know anyone who's a fucking rapist, turns out.

• 14:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very strange math.

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, boy math.

• 14:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That is a piece of it, maybe, is Me Too, everyone, all the men, even the good ones, quote unquote, that I knew were like, this is very dangerous. And, you know, people could lose their careers or whatever. And it's like, right, but we've been stopped by that over and over again. And turns out, they need to.

• 14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Turns out, there need to be consequences to, I don't know, thinking that you can do something like that to a human being.

• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Your actions and your inactions, there are consequences for those things.

• 15:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, Exactly Right Media, here are some highlights.

• 15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  This week on This Podcast Will Kill You, Erin and Erin are joined by award-winning author Robert Colker to discuss his new book, The Vanishing Family, which explores one family's experience with hereditary frontotemporal dementia and what it means for the future of dementia research.

• 15:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, I have to read that.

• 15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I will not be reading it.

• 15:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's fair.

• 15:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Please let me know.

• 15:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll let you know to not read it.

• 15:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Appreciate it.

• 15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Over on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul go back to 1955 to discover.

• 15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  To a department store filled with goods.

• 15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. To discover the investigation of United Airlines Flight 629 that exploded over Colorado shortly after takeoff. We've covered that. As authorities search for answers, the evidence begins to reveal that it was no accident. Fascinating story.

• 15:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Over on Hollywoodland, Jake and Zeth uncover the real-life 1908 murder mystery that helped inspire Twin Peaks. This unsolved murder of a young woman named Hazel Drew in idyllic New York town, revealed a world of corruption, deceit, and even more murder.

• 16:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Then check out Bananas. Kurt and Scotty talk about a tarantula owner's quest to make sure his pet doesn't die a virgin.

• 16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Aww.

• 16:14Georgia Hardstark?

  France's record heat wave leading to historic champagne levels. And, I appreciate that.

• 16:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So good.

• 16:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And on a related note, whether regular social drinking could actually be good for your health. The answer is no. And I got a letter in the actual mail from Kurt and Scotty because they were doing the Dry 69 challenge for Bananas.

• 16:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And they sent me a Dry 69, I did it bumper sticker, like a little note. How amazing is that?

• 16:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the cutest.

• 16:41Georgia Hardstark?

  So I was like, how did you get my address? And then I was like.

• 16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay away from my door.

• 16:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Yeah. That was really sweet.

• 16:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very sweet. Just so you know, I wrote in, the answer is no.

• 16:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good. Thank you.

• 16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right as you do this.

• 16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm like, what?

• 16:55Karen Kilgariff?

  This huge accomplishment where you're just like, hey, I did this thing. I feel great. And it's like, hey, guess what? Everything's fine.

• 17:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Turns out.

• 17:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And hey, listen, look, get out your gowns because it's award season for a podcast.

• 17:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 17:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Five of our Exactly Right shows have been nominated for Signal Awards.

• 17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Two Face, John of God, which was our limited series from Adonde Media.

• 17:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 17:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I Said No Gifts with the great Richard Weiniger, Disgrace Land, Jake Brennan's amazing show, of course, Brief Recess with the star of Traitors.

• 17:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 17:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Michael Foot and of course, Melissa Malabranche and The Knife, our beloved The Knife with Hannah and Peja.

• 17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 17:35Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a listener favorite situation. You have to go vote. If you love these podcasts as much as we do, and we know you do, please go to signalaward.com and vote for your favorites. You have until October 15th. Do it. Your vote matters.

• 17:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so huge. I mean, it means so much to get an award like that. So please vote. Signalaward.com.

• 17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  911, what's your emergency?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons. 911 Nashville returns.

• 18:09Speaker 03

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 18:14Speaker 03

  Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm first and only today.

• 19:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 19:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Whew, I've got a doozy.

• 19:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 19:30Georgia Hardstark?

  For you that I am excited to tell you about. I've been immersed in this now and...

• 19:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just a fight with your neighbor. I've been immersed since I moved into my house.

• 19:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I have been.

• 19:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Jairus, you are on.

• 19:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's a photo of my neighbor. No, we are the best neighbors. Okay, this is a story of a different kind of killer. It's February 24th, 2010, and we're in Orlando, Florida at SeaWorld.

• 19:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 19:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And a trainer named Dawn Brancho is performing with one of the park's many orcas or Shamu whales. This whale's name is Tilicum, and Dawn will be the third person whose death is attributed to Tilicum. This is the story of Tilicum, the killer whale who killed three people before SeaWorld finally stopped letting trainers get in the water with killer whales.

• 20:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god. I see.

• 20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  There he is.

• 20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, and then psychically, I was like, I'll do your theme.

• 20:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh yeah, blue.

• 20:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi.

• 20:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Deep blue.

• 20:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm the deep sea.

• 20:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is...

• 20:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Where Tilicum belongs.

• 20:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. So this story, okay, I first found out about the story from an article in Outside Magazine.

• 20:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Your favorite?

• 20:41Georgia Hardstark?

  My favorite. Actually, they have really great, like, in-depth articles, and this one was by Tim Zimmerman. And when I pitched it to Ally Elkin and Molly Smith of Exactly Right Media, they, I've never seen them so excited about a story. And Ally, like, researching this and writing this, was so excited about it, so I, I love that.

• 20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Love it.

• 21:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Their excitement over this.

• 21:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 21:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, also, I listened to a book called Beneath the Surface by John Hargrove. He's a former senior orca trainer at SeaWorld, and it has been on both sides of the, like, for and against.

• 21:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that, what an incredible perspective.

• 21:17Georgia Hardstark?

  He just has, yeah, he can tell you everything. I mean, it's a really great book that explains why and how someone gets into that, and what it means, and what really happens. Okay, and then the other main sources are the documentary Blackfish, of course, and the book Death at SeaWorld by David Kirby, also a 1997 Frontline episode called A Whale of a Business.

• 21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Boo.

• 21:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Why? You love it.

• 21:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Noah.

• 21:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It's funny, it's like the most serious episode I've seen, and it's, there's, someone was like, having fun that day.

• 21:48Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna have a whale of a good time. Knock it off. Also, no one says that anymore.

• 21:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No. All right, so let's go back and let's get a little bit of info about Tilicum and SeaWorld. So by 2010, when this episode with Dawn happens, nearly all of the whales at SeaWorld had been born in captivity, but not Tilicum. He is an 80s baby and was born in the wild. Much of what we actually know about orcas, and orcas and killer whales are interchangeable names here, has been learned very recently, in the past couple decades. So we know that they are generally highly social creatures that form tight-knit family networks with their pods. The pods communicate with each other in distinct languages, um, even accents and dialects.

• 22:34Georgia Hardstark?

  So like, ones like Boston and ones from like, you know, Dublin, and they don't understand each other, kind of.

• 22:39Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like Worcester.

• 22:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Uh, orca societies are matriarchal, and even after they grow up and begin having their own babies, orcas stay with their mothers their entire lives. They go to other pods to breed.

• 22:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine? Can you imagine?

• 22:55Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 22:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You're back with Janet.

• 22:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 22:57Karen Kilgariff?

  In your bunk bed.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  She's trying to put you to bed.

• 23:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're living in an RV for some reason. I think of like, the tightest quarters I could think of.

• 23:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, and she's just touching elbows with you the whole time.

• 23:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I'm sweating.

• 23:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Me and my mom in my front room, and she's like, put some lipstick. You look like a girl. Put some lipstick.

• 23:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So, and then the, the little pods are centered around the oldest female. So this orca craze started in 1965, when a 22-foot male orca was unintentionally captured in a salmon net off the coast of Namu. The man who caught the whale sold him to the Seattle Marine Aquarium, where he began performing under the name Namu. He was so popular, the aquarium captured a female killer whale who they named Shamu, and then leased to SeaWorld in San Diego. So Namu and Shamu are both sensations, and this sets off a frenzy of other aquarium and marine parks, which previously sprung up around the craze for performing dolphins because of Flipper, wanting to get their own performing killer whales.

• 24:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, hold on really quick.

• 24:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:04Karen Kilgariff?

  The TV show Flipper from the 50s and 60s is why we have, like, Marine World and SeaWorld and all that?

• 24:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's wild.

• 24:12Georgia Hardstark?

  The Frontline episode talks a lot about that, how it happened. It's fucking so upsetting and troubling, I will warn you. This sets off an unregulated Wild West situation in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, in which professional hunters harass pods of killer whales with flashbombs and other noisy objects. They funnel them into confined areas and separate the smallest ones from their mothers to take them to perform. And when this happens, the rest of the pod stays nearby, watching the calf get lifted onto a stretcher, onto a boat, and they're calling back and forth to the calf the whole time. And supposedly, it's heartbreaking to witness, not surprisingly. This is how Tilicum winds up being captured as a baby off the coast of Iceland in 1983.

• 24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And there's a whole thing about the Pacific Northwest whales, and that practice getting banned here, having to move to Alaska, getting banned there, and finally Iceland's like, whatever, go ahead.

• 25:05Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 25:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry Iceland, yes.

• 25:07Karen Kilgariff?

  They would never.

• 25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  They did.

• 25:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 25:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Because there's so many of them, and they were saying it's ruining the fishing, you know, industry, but...

• 25:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll just say that as a child of the 70s, and I'll use any excuse to talk about being a child of the 70s, but my parents subscribed to National Geographic Magazine, which was a game changer.

• 25:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's so important and so incredible. And there was an issue of it that put out a 45 record on very floppy material, but, right? Of whale songs. When it was like, the whole Save the Whales movement started in the 70s.

• 25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was just as I was kind of like, becoming aware of all the things, that I want to read that magazine, or whatever. So it was like, saving the whales and protecting whales and sea life like that were always this big part of, at least California, maybe Northern California culture.

• 25:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But meanwhile, this is actually what was happening.

• 26:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and also, off of that, SeaWorld acted like they were part of this Save the Whales thing.

• 26:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:09Georgia Hardstark?

  They acted like they were doing a good thing by helping save the whale and helping to protect.

• 26:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 26:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, teach people about this.

• 26:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And donate tons of money to make sure they're never harmed.

• 26:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So Tilicum is displayed for a year at an Iceland aquarium before being sold to a marine park called Sealand of the Pacific in Oak Bay, British Columbia in 1985. This is a smallish park with not a ton of space to hold whales. It's like a big pool, essentially. And then at night, Tilicum and two older females, they are stored, essentially, in this small holding tank in the dark. And the females, the two older females, treat him, a male newcomer, aggressively, as they do in their pods in the wild. They rake his skin, uh, with his teeth, meaning they just almost like...

• 27:00Karen Kilgariff?

  With their teeth?

• 27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they rake their teeth down his skin, and you can see that there's like, these cuts. He's bleeding when he's brought out to perform in the mornings, and it's just really awful and tragic. Sealand is often described as rundown and rinky-dink. It's kind of on its last leg. I think it had dolphins originally, and then they just replaced them with killer whales. The pools are small, the park has those three killer whales who perform tricks, the park calls them behaviors, but trainers here do not get in the water with the whales. Uh, even in 1985, they were like, that's not a good idea.

• 27:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they're what we call killer whales.

• 27:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So on February 20th, 1991, a 20-year-old part-time trainer named Kelty Byrne, who is a marine biology student and a competitive swimmer, is wrapping up a show with Tilicum and the two other females. Kelty was a champion swimmer from Victoria, British Columbia, so she's an incredible swimmer. Trainers in general are hired mostly for their swimming ability and their charisma, and while they do have a love of animals and learn a great deal about them, at this time, they don't have to have any particular science or psychology background than like, understand whales.

• 28:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Just seems like something that should be regulated.

• 28:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, yes. So as Kelty is walking along the poolside, she slips and her foot falls into the pool, and Tilicum, at this point, is about 10 years old. Having lived in cramped conditions with older whales taking their aggression out on him for years, he reacts, as an animal does, and grabs Kelty's foot and drags her into the water, along with the two dominant female orcas. So I looked up in our Gmail account, I just put in Tilicum, and I was like, there's no way someone already written about this. Yeah, we had multiple emails about Tilicum. Including one from someone who wants to stay anonymous and go by Kay from 2020.

• 28:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Kay said, quote, "I have a degree from a respected university in marine mammal science and marine conservation, worked for two-plus years at SeaWorld Orlando, and I have personal experience working alongside Tilicum, Tilly, and animals like him." And this is how she explained the, uh, what happened to Kelty when she was grabbed. Quote, "The three orcas submerged Kelty, dragging her around the pool in a game of sorts, preventing her from surfacing. At one point, she reached the side and tried to climb out, but the orcas pulled her back into the pool. She surfaced three times before drowning, and it was several hours before her body could be safely recovered from the pool." And again, she was a champion swimmer.

• 29:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:38Georgia Hardstark?

  After this incident in which Kelty Byrne dies, Sealand sells all three killer whales to SeaWorld, one of which is pregnant with the first of many killer whales to be sired by Tilicum. That whale is known as Kaiquat or Kai. Um, you want to see a photo of Tilicum? Is now a good time?

• 29:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, will it ever be a good time?

• 29:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's a photo of Tilicum.

• 29:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, just like, when you swim in a pool for like, three hours, and your hair's all fucked up, and it's, your skin feels terrible, and your eyes are red.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And these are animals that are, that's supposed to be their air, and their like, surroundings, and then they're just in a bright blue...

• 30:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 30:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Chlorinated pool like that.

• 30:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It just seems like, it's so pristine, the water, compared to what they need and thrive in. It's just, yeah, very troubling. So Tilicum arrives at SeaWorld just in time for a killer whale craze to sweep the nation. Orca madness reaches an absolute fever pitch around the release of the movie Free Willy in 1993. You remember that?

• 30:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 30:37Georgia Hardstark?

  People lost their minds.

• 30:38Karen Kilgariff?

  They got the children on the orca's side.

• 30:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's possibly why many millennials believed they would grow up to be marine biologists. K R. Marderino in residence says, "The vast majority of people hired for positions in animal training are psychology grads who earn their spot only after passing grueling swim-based and psychosocial examinations. Despite what certain groups will lead you to believe, nobody is walking off the street and jumping onto a whale at SeaWorld."

• 31:04Karen Kilgariff?

  We believe you.

• 31:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and in that book that I read, the one called Beneath the Surface, talks about like everything you had to do to become a SeaWorld trainer.

• 31:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd love to take a psychosocial SeaWorld test.

• 31:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Fail. Immediate fail.

• 31:18Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 31:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Take her to jail.

• 31:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Send her to jail.

• 31:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Send her to jail. Yeah, we should find that out. That'd be a good fan call video.

• 31:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It'd be like, you're just holding a herring and staring into someone's eyes.

• 31:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't look away.

• 31:26Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you gonna do?

• 31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So, in this atmosphere of increased popularity of killer whales from the movie Free Willy, SeaWorld faces some scrutiny over the practice of keeping whales and other mammals like dolphins in captivity for the purpose of entertainment. Activists regularly protest the practice, and throughout the 90s and early 2000s, there's mounting evidence that the whales are not doing well in captivity and that their living conditions are making them aggressive. And to this day, the only known instance of killer whales killing people or almost killing people, the only times that have happened, is with captive whales. So, in the wild, there's been a couple isolated incidents where a wild killer whale has bitten a person in a wetsuit, but they've never displayed this dragging behavior. And as soon as they

• 32:11Georgia Hardstark?

  realize, in the wild, it's a person and not a seal, they let the person go and the person has survived.

• 32:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  So...

• 32:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, because they have those little round teeth. They don't have shark teeth. They have those little funny teeth.

• 32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, there's a lot of them and they're big.

• 32:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they're large.

• 32:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They're huge.

• 32:26Karen Kilgariff?

  But they make me laugh because it's like you look at this thing and you're like, "Oh, this is so scary." And then they're like, ding, with just like funny little teeth.

• 32:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Little plushies. You gotta sell those little plushies.

• 32:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:35Georgia Hardstark?

  So, back to the captive whales. On the morning of July 7, 1999, Tilikum is discovered swimming around his tank at SeaWorld with a body of a man, naked man draped across his back. And that's actually a behavior they'll do is they'll play with their food. So, they'll do it when a seagull will land in the pool. They'll toy with it and kill it and then put it on their back and like cruise around with it, like showing it off. And in the morning, when someone gets there, they see that there's a man dead draped across his back. Officials will later determine that this man was named Daniel Dukes, and he was 27 and from South Carolina. Very little has been published about him, but he was a drifter and a self-professed environmentalist, and it sounds like he probably suffered from some degree of mental illness.

• 33:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It appears that he hid in the park after closing time with the intention of swimming with the killer whales. And there are nighttime security, like they should have been able to stop him.

• 33:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. But you wouldn't expect anyone to want to do that.

• 33:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No. And he was clearly not aware that only some of the whales were cleared to have trainers even in the water with them.

• 33:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And Tilikum was expressly not one of those whales. SeaWorld is very quick to paint Daniel as some sort of deviant. Later, a former trainer named Rick O'Barry will say, quote, "The problem is that the whales have nothing better to do. They're bored. We literally bore them to death. It's like you living in a bathroom for your life."

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 34:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And autopsy reports state that Dukes had no drugs or alcohol in his system, and the cause of death was deemed to be drowning, but I also saw hypothermia somewhere because the water's kept at 55 degrees. But he was also like mangled before death as well. It's really disturbing.

• 34:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I take back what I said about the teeth. That was incorrect.

• 34:27Speaker 07

  911, what's your emergency? What? We need help. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 34:43Speaker 03

  Oh, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  That's one of the places for Bible.

• 34:47Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star Trust Pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 35:51Georgia Hardstark?

  So, in 2004, SeaWorld has a close call out at San Antonio Park with another highly experienced trainer, a man named Steve Abel. And these little close encounters are in the movie Blackfish, the documentary Blackfish. And it's, I was so mad that I had to watch it again for this because it is so stressful.

• 36:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I've never seen it because I can't deal with it.

• 36:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't.

• 36:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's incredible. It's so well-made. It is so fucking disturbing.

• 36:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You should watch it.

• 36:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that the same one as the one, it's not, The Cove where they show?

• 36:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 36:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Murdering dolphins.

• 36:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucking awful. They're all awful.

• 36:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I've gotten into one documentary in an area where I was like, well, now I'm haunted forever because my brain takes pictures and shows me randomly, so I can't have that in there.

• 36:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, maybe don't watch Blackfish.

• 36:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 36:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good.

• 36:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm sure it is. It's, I think it changed, it changed things.

• 36:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, it did. So, Steve Abel is performing with Kai, which is Tilikum's first son, who's now 13 years old. And this is again in San Antonio, SeaWorld. Kai starts breaching and slamming down on Steve in the water, and there's video of this. And Steve seems to get underwater in time to not be seriously injured from the impact. Then he stops Steve from getting out of the pool at the exit ramp and pushes him around the pool. Somehow, after about a minute of this, Steve seems to calm the whale down and leap over him to exit the pool. And it's pretty incredible that he, it just shows how good he was as a trainer, that he was able to escape this thing that maybe he shouldn't have been in in the first place, we'll argue.

• 37:28Karen Kilgariff?

  But still.

• 37:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And it appears Steve still works for SeaWorld and is pretty high up in the company.

• 37:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I mean, after that, you would be like, no one can touch me.

• 37:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 37:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I beat a killer whale.

• 37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Layoffs? I don't think so.

• 37:39Karen Kilgariff?

  No way. I'm running this place.

• 37:42Georgia Hardstark?

  This happens again, two years later, in 2006, at SeaWorld in San Diego with a female whale named Katsakka and a trainer named Ken Peters. And in this incident, Katsakka drags Ken to the bottom of the pool by his foot two different times, each stretch for about a minute. And again, Ken is so good at his job that he manages to control his exhale while he's being dragged under. They have to have these crazy lungs and they have to like, part of their test is holding their breath for this insane amount of time.

• 38:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, a psychosocial test?

• 38:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, yes. And then like swimming down to the bottom of this huge tank, grabbing a weight and like coming to the top and then going back and forth like laps. We could definitely do it.

• 38:24Karen Kilgariff?

  We, I would do it so easy. But there is serious qualification.

• 38:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 38:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like the scuba diving experience, but also, I mean, yeah, there's a lot coming on.

• 38:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So somehow Ken manages to, you know, control his exhale and hold his breath. And then he's able to stroke the whale's head, calming her down until she actually does let him go. And Ken's wetsuit is torn at the leg and the bite has broken his foot. Again, there's, in Blackfish, there is video of this. And again, this is all in front of crowds of...

• 38:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Children.

• 38:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Children.

• 38:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're very...

• 38:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Screaming.

• 38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't forget that.

• 38:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Crying children.

• 38:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It seems like SeaWorld is not at all chastened by this, saying Katsakka will likely be allowed to continue performing. I think a lot of the times, they just chalk this up to trainer error.

• 39:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Rather than acknowledging how dangerous this is. Three years after this, in December 2009, a trainer named Alexis Martinez, a man, is killed by a performing killer whale at a marine park called Loro Parque in the Canary Islands. The park is not owned by SeaWorld, but the whale is. They have this transactional thing.

• 39:31Karen Kilgariff?

  They lease them or something, yeah.

• 39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And it had been on loan to Loro Parque. And while SeaWorld downplays the relationship between the parks, SeaWorld trainers, including Dawn from the beginning of our story, had supervised and trained Loro Parque trainers. So, there is a relationship there. Dawn had worked with Alexis previously, and Alexis is known to be the top trainer at this park in a place where you didn't actually have to be that good. Their like standards were way lower and he was incredible. He was really charismatic. Everyone loved him and looked up to him. So, this happening to the best of them says so much.

• 40:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 40:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:10Georgia Hardstark?

  The killer whale, named Kido, had pulled Alexis underwater, then rammed him in the chest, causing massive internal bleeding.

• 40:18Karen Kilgariff?

  These are gigantic...

• 40:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I haven't even gotten to how big they are, but picture an elephant. Picture a full-grown elephant.

• 40:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Underwater.

• 40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Underwater.

• 40:26Karen Kilgariff?

  With a little eye that's looking at you.

• 40:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And the teeth.

• 40:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So, this all brings us to two months later. It's again, February 24, 2010, and we are in Orlando, Florida at SeaWorld. Dawn Branshaw is 40 years old and one of the most experienced trainers at SeaWorld Orlando. Again, it's not newbies that this stuff is happening to.

• 40:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:47Georgia Hardstark?

  She trains the other trainers. She's huge on safety and teaches the less experienced trainers all the techniques and practices that SeaWorld has put into place over the last 20 years. Dawn herself is married to a man named Scott. They live in an Orlando suburb with two chocolate labs. She's got a magnetic personality. In high school, she was the class president and the homecoming queen. Her Christmas card list is 250 people long. Working at SeaWorld as a trainer had been Dawn's childhood dream after her own family had seen a Shamu show at SeaWorld when she was a child. After college, she worked with dolphins at Six Flags Great Adventures in New Jersey before getting a job at SeaWorld and steadily working her way up. At this point, Dawn is the face of SeaWorld, appearing

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  in promotional photos next to many of their performing killer whales, including a mural at the Orlando International Airport.

• 41:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 41:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So, here's a photo of Dawn Branshaw with a killer whale. That's her.

• 41:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So, that day, Dawn is slated to do a dine with Shamu show for a lunchtime crowd. This is more of an intimate show done in an open-air restaurant surrounding a pool in which a killer whale performs tricks with a trainer. So, you pay more to get in there. You get some like...

• 41:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Crustfish sandwich?

• 42:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, probably.

• 42:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Today, Dawn is performing with Tilikum, who is at this point one of SeaWorld's oldest whales and by far the largest. He is 12,000 pounds. And I looked it up. A cow is 1,200 to 1,400 pounds. And an elephant can be up to 15,000 pounds. So he's 12,000 pounds. So like an elephant, like a good-sized elephant.

• 42:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, like a kind of skinny elephant.

• 42:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And the next largest whale is half that size. So he is the fucking big guy.

• 42:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Georgia Hardstark?

  But Tilikum seems distracted that day. In a nearby pool, diners can see that a group of other whales are kind of agitated. Tilikum keeps vocalizing loudly and those other whales are calling back to him. The whale's previous show that morning hadn't gone so well, meaning they weren't doing their behaviors or tricks, they don't like to call them tricks.

• 42:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Instead, the whales had all seemed more interested in roughhousing with each other than performing their tricks. And that might be why Dawn kind of pushed him a little more is because more was expected from her for this intimate show. You know, she's still working for a corporation, a billion-dollar corporation.

• 43:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah.

• 43:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 43:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 43:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Now, at Dine with Shamu, Tilikum misses some of Dawn's cues and that causes her to give what's called a neutral response, meaning he doesn't get rewarded because he didn't do the tricks correctly.

• 43:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And it seems like he's getting agitated about this. And also, another thing is their hearing is so good that they can tell when their trainer is at the bottom of the fish bucket, when they're running out of fish.

• 43:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 43:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So he knows that his treats aren't coming the way they should be. And not only his treats, his, his food.

• 43:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, that's how he gets fed. So I know.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I hate it so much.

• 43:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like, all of these examples you keep giving, like the, the hearing or the communication, all those things. It's like, you have trapped a wild animal.

• 43:52Georgia Hardstark?

  They're so intelligent.

• 43:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's so intelligent and so sensitive.

• 43:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 43:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And just like, too bad.

• 43:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 43:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Do a flip.

• 43:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. In the name of education and entertainment.

• 44:02Karen Kilgariff?

  To the great cost of human fucking life.

• 44:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 44:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't make sense.

• 44:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 44:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, is SeaWorld still open?

• 44:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 44:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, oh, wait, there's a lawyer behind you. Yes, what do you want?

• 44:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's all allegedly.

• 44:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 44:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so the show's wrapping up and then Dawn goes over to a shallow platform, which is where the trainers interact one-on-one with the whales after they've done their little show, their little show. Um, and they lay down and kind of have like some, like calming interaction with them. And they're supposed to do this. She lays down on like a really shallow pool, what do they call them now?

• 44:36Karen Kilgariff?

  A baha deck?

• 44:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 44:39Georgia Hardstark?

  She lays down on what is now known as a baha deck and is kind of soothing Tilikum, who's in the water with his head up, like, near her. Um, and what happens next is not completely clear. The other trainers on hand are not looking when it happens and the guests and other staffers have gone downstairs to an underwater viewing area where they're supposed to get a picture with, quote, "Shamu." And suddenly they hear a big splash and they see Tilikum do a barrel roll and make the horrifying realization that he has Dawn in his mouth.

• 45:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 45:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so there's this big debate on whether he's holding Dawn by the ponytail or forearm, meaning he pulled her in. From the footage that you see, it looks like he grabs her by the arm. The ponytail is an argument that's trying to make it her fault. In a really fucked up way, even though ponytails-

• 45:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, she wasn't supposed to have that.

• 45:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, but that's not true and they all did, like, ponytails were the norm. So it's kind of becomes her fault if she has a ponytail.

• 45:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I disagree.

• 45:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly, in their argument. And actually, she, Dawn had been growing out her hair to donate to Locks of Love. And they're saying it's, yeah, it's really ugly. And also, Dawn followed the rules like to the T. If there was a rule about a ponytail, she wouldn't have been wearing one.

• 45:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 45:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 45:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So Tilikum lets go long enough for Dawn to make a break to the surface where she gets one more breath of air before he pulls her back down and thrashes and rams her. And they, of course, have the 911 calls in Blackfish. So, yeah, you shouldn't watch that, I know.

• 46:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, down in the, like, the viewing area, people can see this?

• 46:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 46:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god.

• 46:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Children. Staff quickly try to usher guests away as an alarm goes off and other SeaWorld staff race to the pool. Some people, they slap the water to try to draw Tilikum to the surface. Others slide out a net. He's just not responding to any of his cues that would help let her go. In the end, it takes about 40 minutes to corral Tilikum into a smaller pool where he finally lets Dawn's body go. EMTs attempt CPR, which is unsuccessful. Tilikum stays at the surface watching this happen. All lookers will describe his demeanor as seeming to hope she will wake up. Dawn's cause of death is eventually ruled to be drowning and blunt force trauma.

• 46:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, I gotta say, I think a big part of this is being able to project on to an animal.

• 46:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 46:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's like, how in the world would you be like, he wants her to wake up?

• 47:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, perhaps.

• 47:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a possibility, but also, this is a wild animal whose entire system is built to feed itself.

• 47:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 47:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And if there's no more fish in the bucket, he's gotta get food.

• 47:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's probably, I mean, he's been in solitary confinement for most of his life.

• 47:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 47:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He is not-

• 47:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Having a good time.

• 47:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 47:22Karen Kilgariff?

  This isn't his friend.

• 47:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 47:24Karen Kilgariff?

  All the things that might be on the other side because that's what would draw you to-

• 47:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And you want to believe.

• 47:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 47:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? It's sad, it's really sad. Um, this tragedy sets off a firestorm around SeaWorld, causing people to stop and think about if there are any circumstances under which killer whales and other animals should be kept in captivity, especially when it's strictly for entertainment and not for conservation purposes. It had never been Dawn's intention to get in the water with Tilikum. People don't get in with him. She had just laid down. There's a long list of rules working with Tilikum. Dawn is aware of these rules and one of her jobs is to give new trainers the Tilly talk about working with him. That talk basically boils down to, if you get in the water with Tilikum, you will not survive. And of course, Dawn was well aware of the track record of incidents, including two previous deaths involving the whale.

• 48:14Georgia Hardstark?

  So, after Dawn's death in February of 2010, OSHA, which in case you need to know, because I did, the Occupational SeaWorld Health Administration- -opened an investigation into SeaWorld and trainers are never allowed back in the water with killer whales.

• 48:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, that's a great first step.

• 48:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. OSHA finds SeaWorld and demands changes be made to the pools, like emergency floors that raise. SeaWorld fought all of this in court, but ultimately lost. Tilikum continues to perform, obviously without any trainers in the water. Um, starting about a year after Dawn's death, he goes back out and trains for the audiences.

• 48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So just, no, just nothing?

• 48:56Georgia Hardstark?

  No. I mean, they can't let him back out. So that's the employee safety side of things, the OSHA stuff. But it's really only after the release of Blackfish that the animal welfare side of things is discussed. The documentary, which wins an Oscar, ignites a firestorm of criticism about the practice of keeping these highly social animals in small tanks and manipulating them into performing. SeaWorld has since announced that it will be phasing out its breeding program. So eventually, there will be no more killer whale shows at SeaWorld. So they are phasing them out. And it's unclear what SeaWorld will evolve into when this happens, whether it will solely be a theme park with some sea animals or whether it might use those performance spaces to expand its dolphin programming.

• 49:39Georgia Hardstark?

  This practice raises all the same ethical concerns for performing whales, but dolphins can't easily kill people. So, it's not as important.

• 49:46Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't know that, though.

• 49:47Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we don't.

• 49:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Because, seriously, they're very smart.

• 49:50Georgia Hardstark?

  So long and thanks for all the fish. So here is a quote from Kay, our murderer now. Quote, "While many pushed for Tilly to be freed in his final years, biologists and ecologists agreed that Tilly would be incapable of fending for himself in the wild and would likely be susceptible to ailment from treatable diseases. It was fear that he would end up like Keiko, the orca from Free Willy, who was released without clearance of researchers and biologists and whom ended up dying of pneumonia off the coast of Europe." So you can't put them back.

• 50:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, they didn't have the correct upbringing, childhood, wild animal experience.

• 50:25Georgia Hardstark?

  None of it, none of it. Tilikum dies in 2017 at SeaWorld Orlando of an infection at the age of 36. He's survived by nine calves, he's hired, and three grandchildren.

• 50:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 50:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Dawn's family starts the Dawn Branchow Foundation, which raises money for organizations that provide services to children and animals. And Kay says, quote, "Dawn's family is amongst the first to say that Dawn passed away doing what she loved and that they do not hold Tilikum or SeaWorld accountable for her death. In fact, every year since her passing, Dawn's family hosts a walk at SeaWorld Orlando in her name to raise funds for the rescue causes that Dawn cared for so deeply." And that is the story of Tilikum, the killer whale.

• 51:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. I just didn't know any of that stuff happened anymore. Like, I really thought after Blackfish, I was like, oh, they're gonna take care of all that. But it is a business. That's kind of how it goes.

• 51:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, thank God they can't ride them anymore and get in the water with them.

• 51:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a weird comparison, but it makes me think of, there's a podcast and it talked about, there's a guy that was like a hypnotist, but he also was a scammer in all these other ways. And one of the things he did, remember permanent makeup that came out? And it was like, you could get lip liner tattoos. He was the one that came up with that. And he was not a doctor. He was not, he didn't study anything. He went to, I think, South Asia, saw people doing it there with tattoo kits. And then was like, oh, well, they should do that here on women. And then just held the weekends himself and taught all these women just kind of like, well, here's how you would do it. But like, nothing was official. And there's been so much of our life and culture and world in this country

• 52:10Karen Kilgariff?

  that is truly like, some scammer made it up and then people believed and trusted.

• 52:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 52:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Trusted.

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Yeah, it's so ugly. It's so heartbreaking. I personally will never go to SeaWorld. As a kid, I went, not knowing these things.

• 52:24Karen Kilgariff?

  No one knew anything back then.

• 52:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Never go again and haven't.

• 52:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's it. The lawyer's back. So sorry.

• 52:32Georgia Hardstark?

  We have to go to SeaWorld? And thank you to Kay, our resident marine biologist murderino.

• 52:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. I love the idea that the Gmail is just sitting there with also like more research waiting to be mined.

• 52:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why when we say, send us your hometowns about anything, that's what we mean. So if you have a story about fucking killer whales, send it to myfavoritemurder@gmail. Was your grandpa one of those original people who chased down whales?

• 52:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll bust him here on our podcast.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell us all about him.

• 53:00Karen Kilgariff?

  We want to hear it. Also, just because we don't read your email in 2016 when you send it, doesn't mean 10 years later, it won't get read.

• 53:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no, we have your email.

• 53:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Hers was from 2020.

• 53:10Georgia Hardstark?

  2020.

• 53:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Amazing. Just a six-year-old. We just had to review some facts.

• 53:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 53:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, great job.

• 53:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 53:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That was a really, that was a great story and it's something really worth kind of hearing about. Because I feel like maybe people are like me where it's like, I think I know and then I don't really know.

• 53:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I could have done like so much more research on this. I'm gonna finish listening to that book and maybe fall asleep to it at night, which is really disturbing.

• 53:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, be careful with that. Can I recommend a parallel and adjacent thing?

• 53:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Bluey? You think I should watch Bluey?

• 53:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever just spent some time with Miss Rachel?

• 53:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love her.

• 53:47Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a movie called Rustin Bone and Marion Caudillard plays a killer whale trainer who has her legs bitten off by the whale and then it's her life after. And Matthew.

• 54:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Lillard. I love Matthew Lillard.

• 54:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Shaggy from Scooby Doo comes. And then the beautiful actor, Matthias Shonarz, comes and he's just some dude that has to come and help her. Like, he's almost like a care worker in home that has to carry her around and stuff.

• 54:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's so hot.

• 54:18Karen Kilgariff?

  He's so hot. And then eventually, he's like, and it takes forever, of course, for her to go outside. And it's this whole kind of rehabilitation. And then he's like, well, I'll sleep with you if you want me to, if you want to like, get it going again and whatever. And it is like, the most heart-wrenching, realistic, unromantic, hottest. Like, I can't explain it, but I would watch it if I were you, especially after this.

• 54:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I will. Amazing. Well, thank you. And thank you guys for listening to this story and tuning in.

• 54:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And being with us.

• 54:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We appreciate you.

• 54:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay strong, rise up, stay sexy.

• 54:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 54:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 55:00Speaker 07

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 55:08Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 55:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lassaveto.

• 55:16Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 55:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 55:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 55:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 55:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 55:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

• 55:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.

• 55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 55:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 55:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 55:56Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 56:12Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 56:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.

• 56:21Speaker 00

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• 56:56Speaker 07

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• 57:35Speaker 07

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