547 - Always on the Precipice

On today’s episode, Karen covers “Witch Doctor” murderer Mona Fandey and Georgia tells the story of the Knightsbridge Security Deposit heist. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  911, what's your emergency?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 0:19Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 0:23Speaker 03

  Hell since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 0:27Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippeach, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 0:37Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 1:02Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're here to podcast at you.

• 1:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Always and forever. That's the contract we signed.

• 1:59Karen Kilgariff?

  With the devil.

• 2:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Come with me.

• 2:01Karen Kilgariff?

  To hell.

• 2:02Georgia Hardstark?

  To podcast for the rest of your life.

• 2:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, I shouldn't have said to hell.

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:06Karen Kilgariff?

  We love it here.

• 2:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love hell. It's the best.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you ever kind of do secretary actions, knowing that you don't have to do any secretary jobs?

• 2:16Georgia Hardstark?

  There's definitely just moments throughout my day where I think, thank fucking god, this is my life.

• 2:21Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 2:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So grateful.

• 2:23Karen Kilgariff?

  My passion that I discovered in sixth grade, which is reading aloud,

• 2:28Karen Kilgariff?

  is my job.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And talking, as much as you want.

• 2:30Karen Kilgariff?

  All the time.

• 2:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Karen Kilgariff?

  All the reasons.

• 2:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Talking here, conversationally?

• 2:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Go ahead and reading off of here.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Just read your thing.

• 2:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's pretty great.

• 2:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can too.

• 2:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Take our course.

• 2:43Karen Kilgariff?

  For only $400.

• 2:45Georgia Hardstark?

  We're selling something.

• 2:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we are.

• 2:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's great. Why is this bothering me? Okay.

• 2:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone's selling something, and those who say they aren't are lying.

• 2:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  A quote from...

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 2:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Grimace.

• 2:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 2:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't remember who it is.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Who's Grimace? I didn't get that. Sorry.

• 3:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That was, the Grimace part was a joke too. I had a really, really big mocha frappuccino before I came here.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I had a pouch from a new brand in my gum that's supposed to give me energy.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Skull?

• 3:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's not nicotine. It's like...

• 3:18Karen Kilgariff?

  A little energy pouch?

• 3:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Neurotropic.

• 3:20Karen Kilgariff?

  What's it feel like?

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel good so far.

• 3:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like it's working.

• 3:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you seeing multiplication in front of you? And you're solving it?

• 3:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I know how to play chess now.

• 3:28Karen Kilgariff?

  What? Okay, I gotta go.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's what I'm selling.

• 3:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Cheek pouch enhancers?

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm like Gen Z. I'm so young.

• 3:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You're down by the old Farmville? I don't know, any of the games people play?

• 3:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of games, I want to hear something funny.

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 3:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Vince Averill, my one and only husband,

• 3:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So you say.

• 3:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Is now in a band with Marcus Parks from last podcast on the...

• 3:58Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 3:59Georgia Hardstark?

  They're in a fucking band together.

• 4:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can too. That's fucking amazing.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that right? He plays golf with Chris Fairbanks, and he's in a band with Marcus.

• 4:09Karen Kilgariff?

  What does Marcus play?

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  He plays drums.

• 4:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's badass.

• 4:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're like, good.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Will you please invite me when they do a show?

• 4:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course. I don't know when it's gonna happen, but yes, of course.

• 4:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Did they just start?

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they've had quite a few practices, just jamming.

• 4:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it like the heavy metal that Vince is so interested in, or whatever they call it?

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's a little more melodic.

• 4:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 4:28Georgia Hardstark?

  This isn't the case, but it reminds me, like Vince used to jam with his friends in New York for no reason, and just jam. And one of their girlfriends called it, um, smoking pot practice.

• 4:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not what this, they were playing electronic back then. This is different.

• 4:43Karen Kilgariff?

  This is different.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, I'll let everyone know. They're gonna be opening for us. I thought you'd get a kick out of that.

• 4:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it. That's really badass.

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we tell everyone that we have a podcast network, in case they don't know?

• 4:53Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I think we should keep it a secret.

• 4:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights from it.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We've got a little show called Disgrace Land. You may have heard of it. The great Jake Brennan, this week, will be telling the story of Alice Bag, who was an underground feminist icon of LA's early punk scene. It's set against the terrifying backdrop of the Hillside Stranglers. I covered them on episode 114, Civic Order.

• 5:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And speaking of familiar cases, over on Hollywood land, Jake tells the story of Rodney Alcala, the dating game killer, absolute monster. I covered that case back on episode 54, called Valet Area.

• 5:29Karen Kilgariff?

  What was going on in those titles?

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't know.

• 5:31Karen Kilgariff?

  They don't seem familiar. Then, over on Wicked Words, Kate Winkler-Dawson welcomes back Dawson Fearnow to discuss the state of Arizona's secret role in the federal witness protection program.

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 5:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing topic.

• 5:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Arizona, you got some explaining to do.

• 5:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's no secret. We've seen all those 80s movies. They dig into the stories of mob informants who were given new identities but couldn't manage to stay out of trouble.

• 5:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That's where the movie My Blue Heaven starts.

• 5:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 5:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that exact?

• 5:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Fearnow is such a rad last name, isn't it?

• 6:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And on Brief Recess, Michael and Melissa address all of the online buzz around Michael joining the new season of The Traitors, including the most important question, did Alan Cumming like him best? Of course he did.

• 6:15Karen Kilgariff?

  How do you not?

• 6:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, the two of them together, get them a sitcom.

• 6:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's happening.

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  These pouches are working. Plus, they break down the Supreme Court's rejection of Trump's appeal involving the $5 million judgment he owes E. Jean Carroll.

• 6:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, go listen to that.

• 6:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Important stuff.

• 6:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, absolutely. And then another Bravo lib graced this network this week. Over on I Said No Gifts, Bridger welcomes back comedian and host of Bravo's Love Hotel. And despite Joel, once again, arriving with a gift on the show, they chop it up about car accidents, threats from space, and salad.

• 6:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Love all those things.

• 6:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 6:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And in the merch corner, we have a brand new license plate frame. It says, "My Favorite Murder, this is terrible. Keep going." Do we need to put these on our cars?

• 6:58Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, I'm not much for wearing your own merch.

• 7:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true.

• 7:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's my stance there.

• 7:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's just in time for National Traffic Awareness Month. You know how much we, you know how passionate we are.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Every year.

• 7:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Every year we tell you.

• 7:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We sit you down, and we say, "It is traffic awareness."

• 7:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what? It's been in your calendar.

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Stop ignoring it.

• 7:17Georgia Hardstark?

  With a little cupcake for months.

• 7:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Get aware.

• 7:18Georgia Hardstark?

  How dare you? What's happening?

• 7:20Karen Kilgariff?

  A little cupcake.

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Keep going. Drive safely. And grab yours at exactlyrightstore.com. And if you see me driving my borrowed Hyundai...

• 7:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Honk, honk, honk, honk, honk.

• 7:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Throw me a cupcake. Wow, this is working.

• 7:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Get that pouch out of your mouth and stop it.

• 7:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Your water is moments from fucking falling over. No!

• 7:45Karen Kilgariff?

  There's some out of it. There we go. It's always on the precipice.

• 7:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, I'm first.

• 7:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Get out of my way.

• 7:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna sit here quietly, like I always do.

• 7:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna tell you a little story that I had heard of, like, distantly. This is one of those, like, a faraway forensic files kind of memory that you have. And it's interesting, the truth behind it. Okay, it's July 2nd, 1993, and we're in Pahang, Malaysia. And an ambitious 49-year-old state assemblyman named Maslin Idris is nowhere to be found. Maslin is a busy guy, so his family is used to going, even sometimes full days, without hearing from him. But now, several days have passed, and they're worried. So he's reported missing to the police. 20 days later, on July 22nd, his remains are found. And there are three people that suspicions fall on. But in the media frenzy that follows,

• 8:44Karen Kilgariff?

  only one of them becomes the enduring face of this case. That person's name is Mona Fendi, and this is one of the most notorious true crime cases in Malaysian history. This is the story of the witch doctor murders, the murder of Maslin Idris.

• 9:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 9:02Karen Kilgariff?

  The main sources used today are articles from the Malaysian newspapers, The Star and the New Straits Times, as well as reporting by Mitzi Zaretto. And the rest of them are in our show notes. So now it's January of 1956. And a baby named Mazna Ismail is born into a small, conservative community. As she grows up, she gets really into singing and performing, and she fantasizes about moving to a big city and getting famous. And although she does take a more conventional path in life by marrying and having a child, she never gives up on that dream. She never lets go of it. But by the time she's 30, she's divorced and raising her baby, Diana, alone.

• 9:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And that is until she meets 29-year-old sound engineer Mohammed Afandi Abdul Rahman. In most reporting, they refer to him as Afandi, and so that's what I'll call him too. So Mazna and Afandi have this whirlwind romance, and they're married very soon after they meet. And she likes to call her new husband her number one fan. And Afandi is ready and eager to use his music industry knowledge and connections to make her a star. So it's the perfect love story.

• 10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is when Mazna decides that she needs a stage name. So she renames herself Mona Fendi. And that's an homage to her husband, who is now her manager as well, because it sounds like his name, Mohammed Afandi. So in 1987, the couple records and self-releases Mona's debut album. She names it Diana One.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love it. Mona has jewelry goals. Like, the gold bangles and the gold necklaces and stuff?

• 10:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, Mona looks like she's in Tropic Thunder.

• 10:48Georgia Hardstark?

  She does.

• 10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  In a way that is shocking and hilarious.

• 10:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally does.

• 10:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But this one's for Diana.

• 10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Diana number one.

• 10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So it isn't, as you had guessed, it isn't a chart topper. But a few of her songs actually do get airtime in Malaysia. Afandi even manages to book her on a couple TV shows, although that doesn't really go anywhere. So a few years pass, and basically, nothing pans out. So Mona decides she's gonna change course. She puts the music business behind her, and both she and Afandi pivot to shamanism.

• 11:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 11:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Now, in Malaysia, there's a long cultural tradition of shamanism. Their word for it is bomo. And bomos use their connection to the spiritual world to offer traditional medicines through conducting rituals and talismans, some of them even practice magic in the hope of addressing the person, their client's, issues. The clients ask for help improving physical health, attracting a romantic partner, growing their net worth, the standard stuff that you go to anyone for, really, for help. So it's kind of unclear what would put someone on that career path, although a relative of Afan Di's will later say that he had a strong interest in mysticism and that he studied,

• 12:06Karen Kilgariff?

  himself studied, under various bomos. But many sources are a little more cynical about the couple's motives, and they basically just accuse the two of opportunism, probably because they target rich people.

• 12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 12:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So Mona ingratiates herself with wealthy potential clients by lying about her connections to Malaysian royalty, just like I do. We all can.

• 12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  You always do.

• 12:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It works.

• 12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta manifest that shit, right?

• 12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You've got to, and you've just gotta be believable as you do it. So I'm the heiress to the Malaysian fortune of...

• 12:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Neurotropics?

• 12:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Of neurotropics. So either sometimes she lies about being connected to Malaysian royalty or high-level politicians, and basically that gives her gravitas, then she's establishing trust with people, they think she's a player. She's also a glamorous 30-something woman with real charisma, who wasn't an entertainer. So that all automatically sets her apart from the stereotypical bomo, which is like an old man, basically.

• 13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Karen Kilgariff?

  She's not your dad's bomo. So it all comes together, and Mona is able to establish herself as a spiritual authority to the point where she begins to bottle and sell a tonic called the Light of Mona Fandi.

• 13:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't make me say it.

• 13:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's her version of Sweet Honesty. And she's like, splash it on, and you two can bathe in the light.

• 13:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And you can burn and burn.

• 13:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. It's worse than Geno Tey. Afan Di, meanwhile, starts opening martial arts studios that blend the usual practice with his and Mona's own brand of mysticism. So cult.

• 13:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, we got culty vibes going, for sure.

• 13:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's at this martial arts studio that he meets a troubled young man in his early twenties named Jerimi Husin. So Jerimi has had a very difficult upbringing. He's lived in poverty, never got an education, he's been struggling with substance abuse, but he comes to this studio looking to better himself. And Afan Di decides to take him under his wing. He hires Jerimi to act as his and Mona's personal assistant. They all become very close.

• 14:19Karen Kilgariff?

  911, what's your emergency? What?

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants. 911 Nashville returns.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 14:35Speaker 03

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality, because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So now it's 1993. Mona's 37, Afan Di is 36, and Jerimi is around 23. Their bomo martial arts venture is working out for them. They claim to be able to do things like cure impotence and help customers maintain their youth, and enough people buy into this fantasy that it provides a very comfortable lifestyle for them. So they're making good money. This is when a man named Maslon Idris comes into the picture. Maslon is an ambitious state assemblyman with a goal of someday being elected Pahang's chief minister. The equivalent here would like be a state legislator who's trying to become a governor.

• 16:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 16:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And Maslon is reportedly introduced to Mona and Afan Di through a friend. He's a wealthy guy, he's also a true believer in this kind of spiritual magic, and their services are not cheap. So he goes to them, and they sell him a supposedly magical hat-and-cane combo that costs him 2.5 million ringgit.

• 16:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 16:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Which, when converted, is worth more than a million dollars in today's money.

• 16:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 16:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Just to start spreading the news?

• 17:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Just to hello my baby all over the place?

• 17:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Do the prayers and do the stuff while he's sitting there, but once it gets into like, objects that are blessed or cursed or whatever, it's like...

• 17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 17:13Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you doing?

• 17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, your religion shouldn't have merch. Should it?

• 17:17Georgia Hardstark?

  100% no.

• 17:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No. I mean, ours does, but...

• 17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it does.

• 17:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We're not affiliated with any...

• 17:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And we admitted it from the fucking beginning.

• 17:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, that's our branding. So they claim that this hat-cane combination is gonna make him invincible.

• 17:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 17:33Karen Kilgariff?

  So Maslon is, because he's a believer, he clearly trusts Mona and Afan Di, and he wants to make this important purchase, but at the moment, his cash is tied up in several properties that he owns. So he basically pulls all the cash he can together, and then he offers them a bunch of land titles as basically collateral until he can liquidate some other things to get more cash.

• 17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't liquidate things.

• 18:00Karen Kilgariff?

  He's got to for hat-and-cane. He could be the WB Frog if he just put his mind to it. So on July 2nd, 1993, Maslon withdraws 300,000 ringgit from the bank, and then he disappears. Days later, his family reports him missing, and a search ensues. One day after Maslon disappears, Mona and Afan Di go on a next-level shopping spree in Malaysia's capital of Kuala Lumpur.

• 18:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, dear.

• 18:28Karen Kilgariff?

  They spend the next several days in a five-star hotel, they buy a brand-new Mercedes, jewelry, and electronics, and they pay for it all in cash. The classic greenhorn move.

• 18:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. When someone goes on a shopping spree, you know they're not spending their own money.

• 18:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, you just aren't.

• 18:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Because you wouldn't do that if you like, had an attachment to you making that money.

• 18:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. You just got something you didn't earn, and you're like, gimme, let me exchange it for all my dreams.

• 18:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me make bad financial decisions with someone else's money, not your own.

• 19:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So they pay for everything in cash, and then to top it all off, Mona checks into a hospital and gets a multiple, very expensive cosmetic surgery.

• 19:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Deep, plain face.

• 19:11Karen Kilgariff?

  A neck lift, an upper bleff. We only know one, so we know she got multiple, but the one we know for sure is that she got a breast augmentation.

• 19:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything else was undetectable, right?

• 19:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It was such good surgery. No one ever, they're like, you're so refreshed.

• 19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Something looks different about you.

• 19:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You look exactly the same when you did in high school. I love, if anybody says that to me, I go, plastic surgery. It's plastic surgery all over the map.

• 19:35Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no hide, why would you hide it? You don't need Botox, because I have Botox.

• 19:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 19:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't need Botox, because I've already gotten it.

• 19:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's filled with botox.

• 19:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I could barely move my fucking face.

• 19:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Nothing is real.

• 19:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And nothing is real. The New Straits Times will later report that, quote, "To prove that her body was still supple for a 38-year-old, Mona asked the staff at the five-star hotel to feel up her breasts," end quote.

• 20:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like people who get breast implants go really wild with that.

• 20:04Karen Kilgariff?

  They need that kind of five-star hotel worker approval.

• 20:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You there, down the hall.

• 20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You want to feel them?

• 20:12Karen Kilgariff?

  You know. So now it's July 13th. It's been almost two weeks since Maslin Idris's disappearance. And it is being covered extensively in the news. He is a government official. So just when Mona and Afandi are peaking in this spending frenzy that they're on, Jerimi is arrested under suspicion of drug possession, which in Malaysia is a very serious offense. When they take him into custody, it's such a serious offense that he confesses to a totally different crime. And he tells the officers he helped kill Maslin Idris.

• 20:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, like, he's better off having been an accomplice in a murder.

• 20:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No one knows why he confessed or did it that way. But there is a source that suggests he was intoxicated and he was confused about the arrest. He thought he was being arrested for the other thing he did. Although he, in his appeal, he accuses the police of using force during questioning and basically saying he did it, he confessed under arrest. Either way, Jerimi confesses and he implicates both Mona and Afandi. And then in the coming days, police locate and unearth Maslin's remains. They were buried under a construction site for one of his own properties. And this part is horrible and graphic, as all true crime stories lead to.

• 21:34Karen Kilgariff?

  But Maslin's body was hacked into 18 pieces. And according to the New Straits Times, knives and an axe, as well as what the police describe as, quote, "an altar and statues of deities were found nearby." Yeah. So Mona, Afandi, and Jerimi are all arrested. Even though Mona is still healing from her plastic surgeries, they're all charged with murder and a joint trial begins a year later in September of 1994. The story presented by prosecutors is gruesome and it's tragic. And essentially, this is what happened. Maslin showed up on July 2nd with 300,000 bringet, the money he was supposed to bring for the ritual he believed he was buying.

• 22:18Karen Kilgariff?

  They basically brought him to a bathtub and it was filled with flowers. And they told him to lay back with his eyes closed and envision the money that he brought doubling. And as he did that, Jerimi basically came and attacked him with an axe, killing him instantly.

• 22:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So it was a plan. I was thinking maybe accidental or they poisoned him on accident or something. No, they.

• 22:43Karen Kilgariff?

  They eventually prove it was completely premeditated.

• 22:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 22:47Karen Kilgariff?

  The part that I can never get over, which is they dismember the body and bury the remains.

• 22:51Georgia Hardstark?

  How do you find two people who want to do that like you do? You know what I mean? It's just, one person alone is unfathomable.

• 22:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you're all like, hey, guys.

• 23:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Jerimi was reportedly given little more than half of the cash that Maslin brought to the ritual. And then Mona and Afandi took the rest of that cash, plus the land titles that Maslin used as his IOUs. And the two of them drove off to Kuala Lumpur. During the trial, it comes out that Afandi almost immediately tried to claim those properties as his and Mona's own by forging Maslin's signature. Under oath, Mona and Afandi immediately turned on Jerimi. Jerimi, sorry.

• 23:33Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like 20 something year old kids?

• 23:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they immediately turn on him and they blame it all on him. They claim that Maslin still owed them for their services so they would have no reason to want him dead because then they couldn't get paid. On the stand, Afandi tries to actually explain away the forged signatures that were on the land titles by saying, quote, "As Jerimi had gone crazy and caused the death of Maslin, I had no other choice but to forge the documents to recover the money."

• 24:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 24:02Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no reason, there's no if then.

• 24:05Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 24:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't follow. The prosecutors argue that this crime is premeditated and that the couple created a situation where they knew Maslin would be carrying a lot of money and they planned to murder him. One motive for the murder is that getting Maslin's properties is the real payoff. And it's worth much more than all the incremental money they would have made off of him, charging him as a client.

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 24:29Karen Kilgariff?

  For hats and canes. And how many more things can you actually sell to a person?

• 24:33Georgia Hardstark?

  One of those fake mustache, like glasses deals?

• 24:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That thing, $500,000. Okay, so now it's the trial and the public is shocked and captivated at every turn. And every day, there's an onslaught of news reports that cover the proceedings. So murders in Malaysia are rare, but the brutal murder of a sitting politician where one of the killers is a woman and that woman is a shaman is unheard of. So Mona becomes the object of the public's fascination. Of course, she's young, she's chic, she's a bomo. And that's already made her a unicorn. But Mona's behavior in the courtroom really raises the intrigue levels.

• 25:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you have pictures of her?

• 25:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes. Mona walks into the courtroom every day doing an all teeth smile. As she goes in and out, that's her smile every day.

• 25:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That's actually plastic surgery she got her face.

• 25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  She can't move it back.

• 25:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No. She looks thrilled, it's very unsettling.

• 25:33Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's how she looked going in and out every single day. She wore very chic clothes. She had a full face of makeup, she dressed to the nines, like, and she basically did this walk like it was a paparazzi walk.

• 25:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such an out of touch thing to do that you kind of, it makes a little more sense that that's what she thinks she should be doing.

• 25:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 25:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Even acting like she is in guilt, you know what I mean? It's like, this is weird, that's weird. She needs like an emergency PR person to be like stop.

• 26:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, she was a singer, not an actor.

• 26:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So she could only really cover herself that way. Here's another, just.

• 26:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that is a joyous face.

• 26:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She just, I think she loves the camera.

• 26:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And it is that idea of like, I mean, this is the story so many times when people want to be artists or want to go that direction and it doesn't work out.

• 26:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hitler, for example.

• 26:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Hitler himself. It is such a weird pipeline.

• 26:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And then it's like showbiz.

• 26:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, anyway, anyway, I can get it.

• 26:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I think those people, they should figure out that they can order those cameras and the flashes on Amazon and you can just do that for yourself.

• 26:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, take a photo of yourself?

• 26:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Walk down, walk to the bathroom and make it a red carpet event. Why not?

• 26:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 26:48Karen Kilgariff?

  If you love it that much.

• 26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it looks like, if you cover the police people, it looks like she's in a sitcom in the 80s. We're gonna do it.

• 26:58Karen Kilgariff?

  She's in a commercial for pantyhose.

• 27:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, completely.

• 27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Crazy.

• 27:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You can look at those pictures and be like, she's so chic, what's she all about? Or what is she doing? What is happening? She also, it doesn't stop there. She inexplicably refers to all the people following this case as her fans.

• 27:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, dear.

• 27:18Karen Kilgariff?

  She memorizes the names of all the reporters in the room. She thanks the court photographers for taking her photo.

• 27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Jeez, she's the Lulu.

• 27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and no one expects to see this at a murder trial.

• 27:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 27:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And even though she is one of three people, you know, involved in this crime or being accused of this crime, in the courtroom, it's only Mona.

• 27:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  As the press covers her, rumors of her so-called black magic powers spread to the point that she's thought of less as a murderer or a con artist and more of a supernatural being who has just made a human sacrifice.

• 27:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 27:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. When it becomes an international story, you may remember when it hit the US, they referred to her as a witch doctor. So it's just a complete circus. One reporter from Malaysia's The Star newspaper writes about an exchange where a court reporter saw Mona's other side when he, quote, "accidentally pushed against her and in a flash, the irate bomo spat at the poor man, the spittle hitting him in the arm. Everyone froze as the man duly dropped his camera and everything he was carrying and sped to the washroom to clean himself. The fear of enraging one believed to have supernatural powers is very real after all."

• 28:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 28:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Not just it's gross.

• 28:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, oh my God, like she's cursing.

• 28:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Cursing, yeah.

• 28:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so now it's February of 1995 and the trial's over and the jury has gone out to deliberate. It takes them less than an hour before coming back with their verdict. All three defendants are found guilty. At this time, a murder conviction in Malaysia is an automatic death sentence.

• 28:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 28:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Anti-death penalty advocates immediately start lobbying for a reduction of their sentences. No one thinks these people are innocent. But advocates argue that, given the media circus around the trial and especially around Mona herself, there's no way any of them had an impartial jury.

• 29:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It took the whole country by storm.

• 29:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So Mona, Afandi, and Jerimi spend six years on death row while police investigate to see whether they're linked to any other disappearances or unsolved murders involving dismembered bodies or ritualistic deaths or anything.

• 29:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 29:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Nothing comes of it.

• 29:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 29:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But their sentence stands. And so, one day in November of 2001, the three defendants are allowed several hours to say goodbye to their families and they are executed.

• 29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Mona is 45 years old, Afandi is 44 years old, and Jerimi is 31 years old.

• 29:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 29:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And reportedly, I'm sorry to like this, but reportedly Mona's final words are, quote, "I will never die. My soul will live on forever, even after my demise."

• 30:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 30:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Intense.

• 30:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. She's not fucking around, I'll give her that.

• 30:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a threat.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks to this case, in part, Malaysia, like India, Pakistan and Singapore, no longer has a jury system.

• 30:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 30:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's abolished in 1995, a couple of years after this trial, and now all cases in Malaysia are determined by a judge. There are people who debate.

• 30:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is better, they both have flaws.

• 30:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, although many people believe a jury trial is the symbol of democracy.

• 30:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:32Karen Kilgariff?

  More recently in 2023, and thanks again to the efforts of anti-death penalty advocates, Malaysia's mandatory capital punishment for crimes like murder, drug trafficking, treason and other offenses is finally repealed. Judges can still issue a death penalty, it's no longer an automatic sentence.

• 30:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 30:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, do you have a joint in your pocket?

• 30:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 30:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so scary.

• 30:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, Mona's role in Malaysian culture has transformed with time. She was a cultural boogeyman, the kind kids tell each other scary stories about at sleepovers.

• 31:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And the story does reemerge when Malaysian people are unhappy with their national politicians.

• 31:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 31:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh. So there was like a tweet that eventually was deleted. It was like their politics.

• 31:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Somebody had done something and somebody tweeted something like, it turns out Mona Fandi was right.

• 31:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Phew, that's a threat.

• 31:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Either way.

• 31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It does seem like Mona Fandi was right, because she isn't dead yet.

• 31:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, yeah.

• 31:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the story of Mona Fandi, the so-called witch doctor murderer.

• 31:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, I don't know that story at all.

• 31:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I, same.

• 31:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job!

• 31:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, thank you, thank you.

• 31:46Karen Kilgariff?

  911, what's your emergency?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Please help us, they're everywhere! We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  All since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues for a bi-.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a heist for you.

• 33:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, you do?

• 33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I sure do.

• 33:17Karen Kilgariff?

  What a wonderful gift.

• 33:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Put on your top hat and get your cane.

• 33:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 33:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And let's get ready.

• 33:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I just need to manifest a magical cane and hat. What kind of hat are you picturing? Just a straw hat?

• 33:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I'm hello, hello my baby.

• 33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, totally right. That you can punch through the top if you want to.

• 33:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Or I'm like a magician's, like, deep one.

• 33:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 33:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Where you put a bunny, get a little bunny out of it.

• 33:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's where you put all your money.

• 33:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, speaking of money.

• 33:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 33:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And heists. And magic. The story I'm going to tell you today is a 1980's London heist, which at first baffled the police, but police get a lucky break and they're introduced to an Italian thief who bursts on the London scene and commits at least six armed robberies in just a couple of years.

• 33:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh!

• 34:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, this is the story of the Knightsbridge Security Deposit heist.

• 34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Mmm.

• 34:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And the main source for the story is an episode of the show, Britain's Biggest Heist, and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. It's July 12th, 1987, and we're in London's Knightsbridge neighborhood. Do you know it at all?

• 34:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I've heard of it.

• 34:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, it's a very fancy neighborhood, southern edge of Hyde Park, and it's home to the most famous department store in the world, Harrods. It's also home to the less touristy but just as expensive and fashion-y Harvey Nichols. This is a neighborhood where people are coming and going with a lot of money and very expensive things.

• 34:37Karen Kilgariff?

  They used to always talk about Harvey Nichols on Absolutely Fabulous.

• 34:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, amazing. So it makes sense that right in the middle, this neighborhood is the Knightsbridge Security Deposit, a small office that houses 4,000 safe deposit boxes in a secured central vault.

• 34:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay!

• 34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We love safe deposit boxes.

• 34:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Mysteries.

• 34:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh. These boxes are used by wealthy people who want to keep cash or jewelry in a safe place, but also likely by drug dealers and money launderers. Anyone can have a...

• 35:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you have a little secret in there?

• 35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly, like, no one can look in them.

• 35:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Sign up for a secret, if you want to.

• 35:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 35:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You can put anything in there.

• 35:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I love the idea, though, of like, leaving a key behind when you die and they go to find what's in there.

• 35:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Weird treasure from World War II.

• 35:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Hidden things.

• 35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  GULs.

• 35:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Family secrets.

• 35:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I think more people should fuck with people when they die.

• 35:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Georgia Hardstark?

  With their security deposit box.

• 35:27Karen Kilgariff?

  They just, like, set a timer and take a picture of themselves sitting on a chair in an empty room, and it's like, where were they?

• 35:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, or a treasure map, okay. The bank is owned and managed by a man named Parvez Latif, and on the afternoon of July 12th, he has an appointment with a pair of potential customers who want to tour the facilities to potentially rent a box.

• 35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  The facilities?

• 35:49Georgia Hardstark?

  The facilities. Here's a photo of Parvez, so he's the owner of this whole area. He reminds me of Perfect Strangers.

• 35:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh yeah, Bronson Pinchot.

• 35:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Bronson Pinchot.

• 35:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally.

• 35:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. So 80's, that hair.

• 36:00Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a cool guy, he went to Cambridge and then you met him at the train station.

• 36:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, one button undone at the top, probably.

• 36:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's go get an espresso.

• 36:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely has like a gold necklace on, you can see it.

• 36:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's down there.

• 36:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's got the little Italian horn on it.

• 36:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 36:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll totally stop talking if you need me to.

• 36:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I really wish you wouldn't.

• 36:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 36:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop. Parvez is in his late twenties, he's very young to own such a high-profile business, and he had opened it, the business, just a year earlier, but guess what? He has wealthy parents, presumably they fronted him the money, or some of the money at least, to open the business.

• 36:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, you can just open a security deposit box business? I guess that's what you've been telling me for five minutes, but like, it just dawned on me.

• 36:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, it's not like owned by a bank.

• 36:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't have to be like, in a bank.

• 36:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's edgy.

• 36:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It is weird, I guess I'd never, like, a PO box business, you'd think that you'd have to have some sort of ties to the fucking US Post Office.

• 36:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I think...

• 36:55Georgia Hardstark?

  But no.

• 36:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you not?

• 36:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess, well, I don't know about that, but with this...

• 36:58Karen Kilgariff?

  You must have to have some, I want to see their contracts and their agreement.

• 37:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Certifications and everything?

• 37:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, please.

• 37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, he went to night school to get his certification.

• 37:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Security deposit, which means I can.

• 37:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, you can too. When the two potential clients arrive, Parvez brings them downstairs to the basement where the vault is, and as soon as they're inside the vault, one of those potential clients, who as you might have guessed, has actually no interest in renting a safe deposit box, he pulls out a slot-off shotgun and holds it to Parvez's back. The two thieves then take Parvez to the security control room, there's another guard there, they take him before he can trigger an alarm, and the thieves handcuff both men and lock them in the room outside the vault entrance. And then there's one other remaining guard, they grab him, also bring him down at gunpoint. So Parvez and the two guards sit in the anteroom, listening to banging coming from inside the vault.

• 37:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:50Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is what's funny to me, is they don't have a sophisticated plan to get, you know, and steal the keys to get into each, they just start smashing the shit out of them, like, literally. The vault is made of solid steel and houses 4,000 boxes, but only 800 are actually being used at the moment. The three hostages hear the thieves make a few trips up and down the stairs, they hear another person come in and join the thieves, and so a supervisor's scheduled to come in by about 5:00, the thieves grab him, hold him at gunpoint, put him with the rest of the staff, and then the thieves flee.

• 38:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 38:24Georgia Hardstark?

  The case is handled by the London Metropolit, the London Metropolitan, what?

• 38:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Metropolitan.

• 38:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, that was, can that be a perimenopause?

• 38:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Could be. Could be the pocket, it's the sachet in your cheek.

• 38:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's what it is. The case is handled by the London...

• 38:41Karen Kilgariff?

  There's always another side.

• 38:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Why do, I couldn't get the word metropolitan.

• 38:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the one drawback, they say it on the commercial.

• 38:49Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 38:49Karen Kilgariff?

  When you put the pouch in.

• 38:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, just know you'll never be able to say that. The Metropolitan Police's Flying Squad, which we've talked about before, so named because they fly from district to district, as needed. From interviewing the staff and looking at the destroyed inside of the vault, the investigators can tell that the thieves smashed the boxes with something like a sledgehammer, loosen them, that had to feel good.

• 39:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 39:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Loosen them from the wall, pry them out and then smash them open.

• 39:17Karen Kilgariff?

  What about all the precious gems and things that would be in there that if you smash it, like...

• 39:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I think they smashed it open.

• 39:24Karen Kilgariff?

  To get, yeah, but...

• 39:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Like pry it open.

• 39:26Karen Kilgariff?

  But my vase.

• 39:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's on you, dude.

• 39:31Karen Kilgariff?

  True.

• 39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's on you.

• 39:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Why did you put it in there? It doesn't even fit in there.

• 39:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You didn't put any bubble wrap around it or nothing?

• 39:36Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Just threw it in.

• 39:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus.

• 39:37Georgia Hardstark?

  On my way to the grocery store. And so they can tell from different colored markings on the locks which boxes were being used. It's kind of suspicious that they already knew what to look for, right? So they wasted no time with the 1,200 boxes that hadn't been in use. Of the 800 boxes that were in use, the thieves broke into 121 boxes, but they did go for the largest ones first.

• 40:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Smart.

• 40:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but then also, I don't know, like when you go for your big presents, small presents, get the small one.

• 40:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's always a regret.

• 40:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:07Karen Kilgariff?

  That's so true.

• 40:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's always something weird, like a pair of boots or whatever.

• 40:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We're like, oh, that's not exciting.

• 40:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like trigger the eye.

• 40:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd say medium box.

• 40:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Medium box, too.

• 40:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I just want film, unmarked film canister.

• 40:22Georgia Hardstark?

  With what?

• 40:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Mysteries, secrets.

• 40:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And you shall. I'm going to grant that to you.

• 40:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Tallying up all the losses from those 121 boxes is complicated, of course, because not all the victims are going to come forward and we don't really know. There's no fucking sign and sheet that says what's in there.

• 40:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially the ones who are like, hey, you stole my stolen porn and bad things.

• 40:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 40:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why it's in a safety deposit box.

• 40:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. People use safe deposit boxes as a way to hide assets, either because they don't want tax authorities to know their true net worth, or because possibly what's in the box isn't legal for them to even own. So like a gun or, you know, drugs and things. Ultimately, 12 of the 121 affected box owners are never found.

• 41:07Karen Kilgariff?

  How?

• 41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  12 people are like, all good, I'm out.

• 41:09Karen Kilgariff?

  You can have it.

• 41:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You can take, keep it. Still, as the investigation proceeds, the tally of the value of stolen goods creeps up and up. And, you know, they don't have an exact amount, but it finally stands at a staggering 60 million pounds.

• 41:24Karen Kilgariff?

  For just a couple boxes?

• 41:25Georgia Hardstark?

  For the 121 boxes.

• 41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's all people, that's what people are reporting. Because someone would be like, oh, that necklace was totally worth 100,000 pounds. But, you know, I'm sure a lot of stuff was insured.

• 41:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 41:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And then.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Or priceless beyond.

• 41:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 41:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Naming.

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, didn't we hear from someone, a listener, saying that you can't put cash? Or is that just probably in the States? You can't put cash in a safe deposit box?

• 41:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, is that true?

• 41:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I remember hearing someone write in, write in, everyone, about your safe deposit box experiences. We always want those.

• 41:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Bankers, get involved in this show for once.

• 42:00Georgia Hardstark?

  What did you see? So it's not clear what mix of assets, cash, it could be precious stones, gold, securities, made up this 60 million pounds, but in today's US dollars, it would be worth about, and you have to do the conversion, too. So that's going to really throw you.

• 42:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Are they usually, can you just give me a hint? Are they usually above us or less than?

• 42:21Georgia Hardstark?

  This number is way above us.

• 42:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. Then should I just go for 110 million pounds?

• 42:27Georgia Hardstark?

  289 million. You had the right idea, but yes.

• 42:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But not, just not high enough?

• 42:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:31Karen Kilgariff?

  280 million dollars.

• 42:33Georgia Hardstark?

  289 million dollars. At the time of the investigation, though, the total is thought to be closer to 40 million pounds, and in court, it's put at between 2 and 20 million pounds. There's just no way to know. But even with the, like, low estimate, it makes the theft the largest in UK history.

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 42:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 42:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so jealous of after they got away from that safety deposit store.

• 42:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Just sitting on the ground, crisscross applesauce.

• 42:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, but it's like, did they rent a really nice hotel room?

• 43:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 43:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But no, because they would see all those 100 security deposit.

• 43:04Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they didn't steal the boxes, they cracked them open.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And took the stuff.

• 43:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And just, you know, like.

• 43:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So they went in with all their duffel bags, Jason Statham style.

• 43:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that we both had the same. For you listening at home and not watching on Netflix, Karen and I just threw, both at the same time, imaginary bundles of fucking treasure over our shoulders.

• 43:22Karen Kilgariff?

  But then, like, dump it on a thing and then just start going, what did we get?

• 43:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you seen the, on Instagram, I'm sure it's on TikTok, too, there's like a chick who like gets a bag full of silver things that are about to be melted down for like, you know, silver production? And it's all these antique things, and it's almost like she's doing treasure hunting at the junk shop.

• 43:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  She can buy a bag of silver, and it's all these little, like, antique lighters, old spoons, old, like, pieces of jewelry.

• 43:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a treasure. Why do we have to melt it down?

• 43:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Because you need to make more, I guess. I don't know, they melt that shit down all the time, like gold and the silver.

• 43:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's weird.

• 43:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Send it to us. It's safe here.

• 44:01Karen Kilgariff?

  At [email protected].

• 44:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's safe.

• 44:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Send your safety deposit boxes.

• 44:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Put the phone number at the bottom of the screen.

• 44:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just reflecting and talking about the extreme greed in me, because there is this, like, it's that idea of, like, it feels like Antiques Roadshow times 1,000.

• 44:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even think it's free there, because I don't even need to keep it.

• 44:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's true. I just want to see it.

• 44:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 44:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I just want to see what it is.

• 44:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Keep one or two pieces that are special.

• 44:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Stick a ruby in my pocket.

• 44:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 44:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 44:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 44:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Why not?

• 44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  But otherwise, I just want to look at it and read the letters.

• 44:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And know the secrets.

• 44:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 44:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're on the same page.

• 44:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great. I'm so glad we're not disagreeing about this.

• 44:39Georgia Hardstark?

  In The Irish Independent, Brian Campbell writes, quote, "As well as cash and diamonds, there were priceless pictures, antiques, heroin and cocaine."

• 44:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Then he says, "Actor George Hamilton lost 38,000 pounds from his box." What's Hamilton doing with all that money in there?

• 44:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all suntan, like, self-tanner.

• 44:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And then, still in the quote, "While a member of the Saudi royal family lost gems and cash worth a quarter of a million." Imagine being that wealthy, you must have many safe deposit boxes. That's a way to, like, spread it out.

• 45:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And little hidey holes.

• 45:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 45:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Every time you take a trip, you're like, well, we're here to see Hamilton, but I guess I'll go stick some of my riches into a safe.

• 45:18Georgia Hardstark?

  George Hamilton? Email us and let us know how this affected you. What was in your safe deposit box? This is our only chance.

• 45:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, please, George Hamilton. I've watched you on television since I was five years old.

• 45:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I've always been a fan, although I'm not a tan person, I support you and your white suits and your tan skin.

• 45:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Looks great.

• 45:36Karen Kilgariff?

  You're.

• 45:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So handsome.

• 45:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Truly of a time. Please tell us what is in your security.

• 45:41Georgia Hardstark?

  There's got to be a great niece-murderino of George Hamilton.

• 45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like we got him everywhere.

• 45:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Michelle, tell your uncle.

• 45:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Mackenzie, get in there and tell him.

• 45:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell your great uncle.

• 45:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Trust me, these girls need to know.

• 45:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Myfavoritemurderer@gmail, or just call us. Still in the quote, "The family of jewelry magnate Aldrinon Asprey lost a million, and a Greek shipping tycoon lost his precious rubies and diamonds."

• 46:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 46:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Russian actress Lumilla Romanova claimed her paper proving her descent from the czar had gone missing. Oh, mine, too.

• 46:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Same.

• 46:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Same.

• 46:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I was just trying to get a table and my certificate. Because they give out certificates?

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's got, yes, yes.

• 46:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I guess birth certificates.

• 46:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right, that would make sense.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Not high school.

• 46:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Not something like the czar sign.

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Lumilla, you're in.

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Checkmate. Am I related to you? Check yes, no, maybe?

• 46:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What's the date today? I have to date this.

• 46:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, you weren't asking.

• 46:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I was, that's how good the acting is.

• 46:44Georgia Hardstark?

  That was great.

• 46:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I drop into reality.

• 46:47Georgia Hardstark?

  There are some rumors that, we're out of the quote, there are some rules that royals are among the victims, including rumors of Prince Charles and Princess Diana being among the victims. But again, this place has only been in business for a year, so it's hard to tell. The examination of the crime scene takes eight days, but there's a stroke of luck. It looks like one of the thieves, while he was fucking hacking at those, had steel and shit, must have smashed his hand, and so there's a bloody fingerprint left at the scene. And this is the one thing, it gives it all away, you are fucked.

• 47:17Karen Kilgariff?

  If it wasn't for those meddling kids, I would have gotten away with it.

• 47:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 47:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm, kind of great. That's like, how about you're more delicate next time with the safety deposit boxes?

• 47:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of on you. So there are databases of fingerprints, of course, but there's no automated system to compare them. So basically, this print has to, like, be visually compared. The fact that they had to do that way back when is bananas.

• 47:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Wild.

• 47:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And eventually, they find a hit off the Interpol fingerprint database. The print belongs to a 34-year-old man named Valerio Viché. Super Italian, you love him. He's wanted for several major crimes in Italy. Take a look.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Valeria.

• 47:55Georgia Hardstark?

  If he didn't have the unibrow, would you?

• 47:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's literally exactly what my eyebrows look like in sixth grade. A, B, yes.

• 48:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at that head of hair.

• 48:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, this is going to be one of the most withholding, yet bossy and in-your-life men. It's quite a combination.

• 48:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. He knows where to, like, drop a nice, good girl every now and then.

• 48:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what it is?

• 48:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Even though you're a fucking feminist.

• 48:19Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, he loves a feminist, he loves a bossy lady. He loves people that remind him of his mother.

• 48:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's like, I'm not going to go around robbing individual people. I'm just going to save it up.

• 48:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Make a plan and then smash a bunch of shit at the safety deposit box store.

• 48:34Georgia Hardstark?

  This guy, he's your, like, bad boy.

• 48:37Karen Kilgariff?

  He is.

• 48:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So he'd been born to well-to-do parents in Italy. His father's a lawyer, his mother owns a boutique.

• 48:43Karen Kilgariff?

  What? Just that he's rich.

• 48:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he's rich. He'd gone to university in Rome and studied philosophy.

• 48:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  But had fallen in with a neo-fascist gang.

• 48:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Bro. And this had eventually segued into a life of crime. It doesn't seem like there's any political motive. It was a, that was just a fleeting fancy, fascist fancy.

• 49:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Falling into fascism is much, much easier than a lot of people think. It's happened a lot.

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this your, like, warning to everybody?

• 49:08Karen Kilgariff?

  To you.

• 49:10Georgia Hardstark?

  He'd been convicted of at least 15 robberies in Italy, but had fled the country, and he's known for being a playboy, of course. He dresses flashily, he's into flashy cars, and he's also known for being a womanizer. But you could change him, I bet.

• 49:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I will. Once I get my hands on his safety deposit boxes, I'm just using him. That's how you, that's how you tame the wild beast.

• 49:31Georgia Hardstark?

  There is a character in this.

• 49:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  The Independent's James Dalrymple writes, quote, "The Italian master criminal was an inept blunderer."

• 49:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 49:43Georgia Hardstark?

  A man almost always under the influence of cocaine. He was wanted for at least 57 major crimes throughout Europe, and would later admit to five armed robberies in England prior to the Knightsbridge job.

• 49:54Karen Kilgariff?

  How's he the blunderer if he's getting away with 50 robberies?

• 49:57Georgia Hardstark?

  If they know he did it, he's not getting away with it.

• 49:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, they're not arresting him. Leave him alone.

• 50:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Would you stop defending this neo-fascist philosophy?

• 50:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Let me romance.

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Rich guy? So, once the police know Valerio is involved, they can put together a list of known associates. And at the same time, they start tracking down a white getaway van. They learn that over the course of the heist, the thieves had put up a sign on the security deposit's front door, saying that the business had to close unexpectedly. That's all it takes?

• 50:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Due to heist.

• 50:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Back from lunch at noon or whatever. They all.

• 50:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Heist over at 2:00 PM.

• 50:33Georgia Hardstark?

  They also learn that at least some of the thieves had worn some kind of maintenance uniform in order to look like workmen. Always carry a ladder with you. You can get in anywhere. We always say that.

• 50:42Karen Kilgariff?

  A nice 12-foot ladder?

• 50:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 50:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Gets you anywhere.

• 50:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Gets you anywhere. Investigators figure out that the three accomplices who were on the scene with Valerio are David Poole, Stephen Mann, and Peter O'Donohue. The only one who looks like someone that I would cast is Stephen Mann.

• 50:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Stephen Mann?

• 50:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Guess who he? Who is that?

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the guy from The Bear.

• 51:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, it's.

• 51:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's also Vince.

• 51:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Evan Moss Backrack from Girls and from The Bear. It's so uncanny.

• 51:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Like, has the sleepy look.

• 51:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And then there's two other dudes. Okay, so here's David Poole. Let's see who would play him.

• 51:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 51:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I have no idea. That just looks like such a classic.

• 51:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Giamatti? You're not gonna.

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Giamatti!

• 51:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, come on, clearly.

• 51:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely Giamatti. And then we've got Peter O'Donohue. Oh, so he's in like Flock of Fucking Seagulls or some shit.

• 51:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Peter O'Donohue is like your weird arty cousin where you're like, can you just wear a normal shirt? There's gonna be people there that I know.

• 51:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, that hair?

• 51:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You cut it to go that way? Or is it just the 80s, like, blow it that way?

• 51:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also, just kind of like, if we're trying to rob this security, it's a safe deposit box store, how about we're low-key this time? And then you can do your hair expressions later on at the club.

• 51:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Save it for the club, Peter. Okay, so all of them are known to Scotland Yard, but none of them are part of the regular circle of thieves that usually carry out the most daring and skillful heists. Like, this is ragtag. In the weeks following the heist, these three are all still going to their regular bars and clubs. Oh, God, take me there in the 80s. Mm-hmm. Um, while Valerio seems to be gone. But a month passes, and in that time, investigators find out that immediately after the robbery, Valerio had bought a black Ferrari Testarossa.

• 52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 52:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Your favorite.

• 52:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Immediately buy a Ferrari if you rob somebody. It's such a good idea.

• 52:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So low-key.

• 52:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's exactly what you should do.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  But again, someone else's money. Buy a Ferrari Testarossa with someone else's money.

• 52:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I think there's a vibe to it, too, of like, get this off my hands.

• 52:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 52:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like hot and crazy, so just like, I needed to immediately transfer to why I did this, which is to have this car.

• 52:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. But they can't seem to actually find Valerio or the car. They believe he had left the country with a woman, don't get jealous, named Pamela C. Marks. So this woman comes into the picture now. There is like no information about her online here. And the photos aren't great either, but she's fucking gorgeous.

• 53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Pamela!

• 53:08Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like, oops.

• 53:09Karen Kilgariff?

  She's got LA Looks hair.

• 53:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't she look like a California girl who just like got tangled up with the wrong guy?

• 53:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. She was like, I was on my semester abroad.

• 53:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes!

• 53:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And I left my crimping iron at home. My mistake. And that left me exposed to the elements and an Italian like him.

• 53:27Georgia Hardstark?

  She's got an oops on her face so hard. So it looks like the two of them flew to Israel to sell some of the stolen goods to an established fence.

• 53:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I, I'm so sorry, I will stop talking after this.

• 53:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't stop.

• 53:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Them flying to Israel makes me go, did they find World War II?

• 53:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh!

• 53:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? That's the thing I'm obsessed with.

• 53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't even think about that.

• 53:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Taking it back to like, this is supposed to be yours?

• 53:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 53:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 53:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And here's proof.

• 53:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah!

• 53:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That would make them the good guys.

• 53:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. What if they're the bad good guys? My favorite thing.

• 54:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 54:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Bad guy, good guy.

• 54:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I think about that. Or it's just corrupt there.

• 54:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Or it's just.

• 54:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Or it's an easy place to sell stuff. We don't know.

• 54:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And then they plan to go to Colombia to set up a brand-new life.

• 54:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 54:15Georgia Hardstark?

  So, police know that prior to the robbery, Valerio had been staying at this hotel, doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately. I definitely looked it up. It's now called Thistle Hyde Park Hotel, so shout out. But it's across the park from Knightsbridge, so it's like clear he fucking did it.

• 54:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And they keep dropping by this hotel for about a month after the robbery, hoping that Valerio will check back in, then they find out that the Ferrari has been spotted in the area.

• 54:40Karen Kilgariff?

  They drove it to Israel.

• 54:42Georgia Hardstark?

  They drove to Israel and drove back. But investigators have learned another very important detail. In the intervening months, while they're monitoring Valerio, they pull phone records, his phone records. And they realize that the fence in Israel, a man named Israel Pinkus.

• 54:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 54:57Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, had placed several phone calls from his office directly to the security center in the weeks after the robbery. So it's looking very much like our original victim, the guy who owns the security deposit box store, or whatever, maybe has something to do with it. And maybe was in on it the whole time.

• 55:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Inside job.

• 55:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's an inside job. His plan had been to get an insurance payout and to get a cut of the stolen goods.

• 55:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why he opened the whole safety deposit box store in the first place?

• 55:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably. And then also, like, them knowing what color to look for that had the boxes that had like stuff in it.

• 55:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, he went through and.

• 55:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Well, that's in no way in the spirit of safety deposit boxes.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 55:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't, you're the holder of the trust of those people.

• 55:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 55:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I hope he hears me.

• 55:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Investigators had also learned that our girl Pamela C. Marks, who is dating our Richie Rich bank robber Valerio, had previously been dating Parvez, the guy who owns the shop.

• 56:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my!

• 56:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Sometime around the time of the robbery, she had started dating Valerio instead. And it seems like she met through, like, just dropped one for the other.

• 56:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? I just want more information, and there isn't any. Like, that love triangle? And then like, but they're in on this fucking heist together?

• 56:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. How long was the breakup between?

• 56:25Georgia Hardstark?

  There wasn't, I don't think there was a breakup. Like, there was no between.

• 56:29Karen Kilgariff?

  One to the other?

• 56:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Like, dump this guy.

• 56:32Karen Kilgariff?

  What if it was something beautiful where it was like, Valerio was like, you know what? You're meant for him.

• 56:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Or vice versa?

• 56:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You know how men always do.

• 56:41Karen Kilgariff?

  They love.

• 56:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You know how men always think fucking rationally and straight?

• 56:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And for others, yeah.

• 56:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So, they believe that Valerio and Pamela had returned to London real quick on their way to Colombia to get the Ferrari to ship it to Colombia. One last stop, you know?

• 56:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, they don't have fucking fancy sports cars in Colombia.

• 57:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Colombia!

• 57:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, why would they have any there?

• 57:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, send someone else to do it, then. You have so much money to send someone else to do it.

• 57:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes!

• 57:10Georgia Hardstark?

  On August 11th, investigators see Valerio leaving the hotel and getting into the Ferrari, the fucking Ferrari that everyone knows about, and they follow him along the northern boundary of Hyde Park to Marble Arch, where police then surround the car and order him out. Inside the Ferrari, police find close to 2 million pounds in cash and jewelry. Send it along.

• 57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Put it in a nice cardboard box and ship it.

• 57:33Georgia Hardstark?

  As well as plane tickets. It's the whole thing. Some of the jewelry had been specifically reported missing after the heist, so he's got the fucking hot goods on him.

• 57:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Hot goods on him.

• 57:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Bro. At first under questioning, Valerio admits to the robbery and actually admits to five other robberies in London in the couple of years that he's been in the country.

• 57:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Easy to let.

• 57:51Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't wanna know.

• 57:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Piano, piano.

• 57:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't even wanna know. But refuses to name any accomplices.

• 57:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  There we are. According to some tellings of the story, police then tell Valerio that they will assume Pamela, his fucking girlfriend, had been the main accomplice and will charge her if he doesn't give everyone else up.

• 58:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Threatening the woman he loves.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, and it works.

• 58:12Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a Hallmark movie.

• 58:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Hallmark?

• 58:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:16Georgia Hardstark?

  This gets Valerio to talk, and the whole story comes out. According to other tellings of the story, one of Valerio's associates, who helped with the robbery, Stephen Mann, had cracked under interrogation and also gave up everyone else, including Parvez, the guy who owns the shop.

• 58:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Was Stephen Mann the one with the haircut?

• 58:31Georgia Hardstark?

  No, that was Peter. Stephen Mann is.

• 58:34Karen Kilgariff?

  From The Bear?

• 58:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, from The Bear.

• 58:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 58:36Georgia Hardstark?

  He gives everyone up. Maybe he's got like a monologue and then, you know?

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  They're screaming, they're smoking. It's gonna be amazing.

• 58:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So the story comes together like this. Valerio had met Parvez months before the robbery and had actually become a client using one of the safe deposit boxes himself. Parvez had allowed him to rent the box without actually putting his name on the registry or showing ID. And he had then, over time, learned that the security cameras at the building didn't work, and Parvez was generally lax about the rules that other criminals like. And that other criminals likely left their spoils in the deposit box. So he was chill with thieves and criminals, and so they put their shit in there, and then a thief and criminal came and took all the thieves and criminals stuff. That's a dangerous game.

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't be Lucy Goosey with the.

• 59:22Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 59:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Safety deposit boxes. That's why we keep them at banks and don't go indie.

• 59:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And shockingly, Parvez was struggling to keep the business afloat, despite.

• 59:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's weird.

• 59:32Georgia Hardstark?

  His business plan and business model.

• 59:34Karen Kilgariff?

  What if you leave your business card in the phone booth? Maybe that would help.

• 59:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Over time, he figures out that Parvez would be amiable to the scheme and convinces him to be involved. It seems like both Parvez and Valerio were party-loving guys in their 30s who had wealthy parents, so it's possible.

• 59:49Karen Kilgariff?

  He saw the haircut? He saw what they were doing?

• 59:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's possible they ran in connected circles. And at some point along the way, Valerio meets Pamela and steals her away.

• 59:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck. They're all like old friends.

• 1:00:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe.

• 1:00:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe.

• 1:00:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Depends on how you write it. During this phase of the investigation, police learned that many things had gone wrong on the day of the robbery. There were issues with the radio communication and with where the various getaway cars had been parked. Can you imagine walking out with, fuck, man?

• 1:00:18Karen Kilgariff?

  What, going out with an orange cone? This is our, this is our, just come back. It's a, it's a big Ferrari.

• 1:00:24Georgia Hardstark?

  This, this case, this bag I'm having on my shoulder? Nothing.

• 1:00:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Down the block.

• 1:00:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just cats.

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Three more blocks. Come on.

• 1:00:31Georgia Hardstark?

  At one point, unable to communicate with the man posted outside the building, Valeria had emerged from the building and had run straight into several police officers who were looking for a missing child and just moved on.

• 1:00:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. She screamed and screamed.

• 1:00:45Georgia Hardstark?

  She's in the bag. Investigators learned one more piece of information that never seems to be totally verified. It seems that Valeria's father, the lawyer, had been in London at the time of the robbery, and some believe he knew about it, but there's no way to know.

• 1:00:57Karen Kilgariff?

  You wouldn't pull your dad in.

• 1:00:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It'd be stupid. If your dad's a lawyer.

• 1:01:01Karen Kilgariff?

  You might pull Marty in, but.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  My dad, yes. Your rich lawyer, Italian dad? No. He wants nothing to do with your shenanigans. You've been embarrassing the family for years.

• 1:01:11Karen Kilgariff?

  For real? He's told you time and again.

• 1:01:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Look at your brother. Why, he's thriving. Why can't you be like your brother?

• 1:01:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So sorry, you're telling me that I loaned you that money so you could open a safety deposit box store and it was insincere? You didn't really care?

• 1:01:23Georgia Hardstark?

  How dare you.

• 1:01:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That wasn't your dream?

• 1:01:24Georgia Hardstark?

  You know how seriously this family takes safe deposit boxes. Okay, so the case goes to trial around the end of 1988, and everyone is found guilty. Valeria is given the harshest sentence, 22 years. Parva is sentenced to 18 years. The associates are all sentenced to around 10 years. Pamela C. Marks is given an 18-month suspended sentence for her knowledge of the robbery. Poor girl. Valeria, I don't know why I want her to be the hero.

• 1:01:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. She's just kind of the hangout. She's the hangout girl, it sounds like.

• 1:01:52Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, bad decisions.

• 1:01:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Or she loves Valeria. She loves that man.

• 1:01:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:01:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And she'll do anything for his Ferrari.

• 1:02:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Valeria serves the beginning of his sentence at Parkhurst Prison on the Isle of Wight. And while he's there, he wears a T-shirt that says, "I love Knightsbridge", and has a clown's face on it with dollar signs for eyes. That's so punk rock.

• 1:02:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, will you describe it again?

• 1:02:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He wears a T-shirt that says, "I love Knightsbridge", and it has a clown's face on it with dollar signs for eyes.

• 1:02:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's really, is he Banksy? That's crazy.

• 1:02:26Georgia Hardstark?

  He might be. Then in 1992, he was extradited to Italy under the Treaty of Strausborg, your favorite treaty.

• 1:02:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's one of the best ones.

• 1:02:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, which was one of several big developments around solidifying the EU at the time. So he's then in prison in Pescara. You been there?

• 1:02:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Pescara's gorgeous, and there's really good, fresh seafood.

• 1:02:44Georgia Hardstark?

  On the Adriatic coast.

• 1:02:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:46Georgia Hardstark?

  But shortly after that, he is put in a program that lets him leave the prison, go to work every day, come back home to have a couple hours of sleep at night in the prison.

• 1:02:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:02:56Georgia Hardstark?

  He gets a job.

• 1:02:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not prison at all.

• 1:02:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:02:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's just having an apartment.

• 1:03:00Georgia Hardstark?

  In the shape of a prison. He gets a job with a publisher, and in April 2000, when Valeria is about 45 years old and out on his usual day release, he and an accomplice are pursued by police. They say that maybe one of his day jobs was planning a fucking another heist.

• 1:03:17Karen Kilgariff?

  What, really?

• 1:03:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so they think he and his accomplice have been planning to either rob a bank or kidnap a member of a high-profile Italian family. There's a brief chase, and then there's a shootout, and Valeria dies in the shootout.

• 1:03:29Karen Kilgariff?

  They kill him. Wow.

• 1:03:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I looked at Pamela. All I could find was a note that says, "She retreated to private life as a housewife in the home counties, avoiding any further public spotlight."

• 1:03:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that would make sense.

• 1:03:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. She's someone's meemaw now.

• 1:03:44Karen Kilgariff?

  She's a lady, yeah, standing in the back of the room at the talent show, and she's like, if you'd ask me.

• 1:03:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't even know.

• 1:03:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You have no fucking clue what I've seen.

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  This is why you ask your grandma.

• 1:03:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:03:57Georgia Hardstark?

  At fucking Thanksgiving, or whatever the equivalent is, Boxing Day.

• 1:04:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Grandma, meemaw, did you ever have an Italian lover that was a bank robber?

• 1:04:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Tell us and then write it at myfavoritemurder@gmail.

• 1:04:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now.

• 1:04:09Georgia Hardstark?

  The neurotropics are working. Only about £10 million was ever recovered from the stolen safe. So did Pamela actually run off with more?

• 1:04:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, one would hope.

• 1:04:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I hope. What if she has a safe deposit box?

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And when she dies, her granddaughter, her great-granddaughter.

• 1:04:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Smash it open. I was gonna say, what if she, what if she, because she's the one person that doesn't buy a Ferrari. She's the one person that doesn't immediately go on a spending spree. She truly got away with it.

• 1:04:35Georgia Hardstark?

  She keeps those rubies in a special place in her closet.

• 1:04:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Georgia Hardstark?

  This is why you have to go through your grandparents' closets.

• 1:04:41Karen Kilgariff?

  She opens her closet, and she's got her rubies on a little shelf.

• 1:04:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And then a little photo.

• 1:04:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And a little painting of just the unibrow. Because no one can know. It's her secret.

• 1:04:53Georgia Hardstark?

  She dreams of safe deposit boxes every night. Only about £10 million was ever recovered from the stolen safe deposit boxes. Around 12 box owners have never come forward at all.

• 1:05:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Criminal, dirty birds.

• 1:05:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Those are the ones we want the most.

• 1:05:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Pervs. What are you doing?

• 1:05:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And that is the story of the Knightsbridge security deposit heist.

• 1:05:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I promised to never drink a venti Frappuccino again.

• 1:05:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Same with whatever I fucking did.

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that was fun.

• 1:05:20Georgia Hardstark?

  A meth pouch, clearly.

• 1:05:23Karen Kilgariff?

  What do they put in our stuff? That was great.

• 1:05:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That was fun. Thank you.

• 1:05:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That was really good. Fun times. And your skin looks amazing.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:05:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It looks amazing right now.

• 1:05:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. 63 days alcohol-free.

• 1:05:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. It looks great.

• 1:05:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Wow. That's so nice to hear.

• 1:05:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fun to have fun, but it's, it's even better when you look great.

• 1:05:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely. This is hard.

• 1:05:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We've had to stare at each other for 10 years. It's not easy.

• 1:05:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you do me a favor and pluck your eyebrows at least?

• 1:05:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Please get rid of that fucking chin hair.

• 1:05:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, good job.

• 1:05:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Good job. What we just did is what podcasting is.

• 1:05:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Forcing people to listen to us, basically.

• 1:06:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't listen to any of these newfound podcasters trying to talk about, you know.

• 1:06:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Real shit.

• 1:06:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Interviewing celebrities. That's, that's radio.

• 1:06:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's for others.

• 1:06:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That's talk shows.

• 1:06:14Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the, this is the one.

• 1:06:16Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the, your two friends amped up on a chemical. We're not gonna talk about which one.

• 1:06:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:06:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Or judge.

• 1:06:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Really stressing through life.

• 1:06:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Just really powering through life.

• 1:06:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I think.

• 1:06:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Story by story.

• 1:06:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we love you.

• 1:06:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sharp, G.

• 1:06:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:06:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:06:43Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:06:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

• 1:06:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Our consulting producer is Kate Schellbach.

• 1:06:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Our creative lead is Allison Agostino.

• 1:06:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes, and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:06:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McLaughlin and Ally Elkin.

• 1:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected] and follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:07:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit the double thumbs up button.

• 1:07:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:07:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:07:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:07:40Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including DisgraceLand, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:07:56Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:07:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:08:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Okay, laundry stinks, literally. I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear. Not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re-wearable or filthy they are. Or just use Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. It's made for real-life stinks and stains. So even if you don't do laundry the, quote, "right way", Deep Clean will knock it out. I mean, it is from the number-one liquid detergent brand that tackles more loads than any other. Come clean with Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. Number one claim based on total wash loads sold.

• 1:08:41Speaker 07

  I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest.

• 1:08:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, I scammed them.

• 1:08:54Speaker 07

  What?

• 1:08:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I could talk to you for an hour.

• 1:08:56Speaker 07

  You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.