542 - Dracula Ambitions

This week’s episode is scam-themed in honor of our newest podcast, Royal Swindle. Georgia covers the Roslyn School Embezzlement Scandal and Karen tells the story of Elizabeth Bigley, the scamming “Queen of Ohio.” For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Two Aussie lesbian lovers touch down in 1990s London and become the toast of British high society. One of them touts an exclusive investment opportunity and soon the money is rolling in. Rich businessmen and England's horse-loving elite fall under their seductive spell. They even meet Queen Elizabeth. But the millionaire duo are concealing a dark past and dastardly intentions. From USG Audio, Blanchard House and Exactly Right Media, this is Royal Swindle. New episodes drop every Thursday.

• 0:48Speaker 00

  Listen now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency?

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:07Speaker 03

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 1:08Speaker 04

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:12Speaker 04

  Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 1:15Speaker 03

  That's one of the plagues for Bible.

• 1:17Speaker 04

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:26Speaker 05

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality, because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 2:08Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome.

• 2:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So my favorite murder.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  And here we are, podcasting once again.

• 2:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we are.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  Well, those are pretty nails.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, they're adults nails that I've somehow put on me.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Magnetic?

• 2:22Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like Gel X, so they're like not my nails. And suddenly I feel like this and dresses, I feel like are the tricks to making people think you have your shit together.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Boom.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  Are you now pointing things out like this?

• 2:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm definitely talking with my hands a lot more, pointing things out. But 10, 15 minutes ago, I was eating an Uncrustable in the car wash, so.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Still me, didn't get me on my dress.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Not so classy that it changes you deep down.

• 2:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  That's good.

• 2:48Georgia Hardstark?

  How are you?

• 2:49Speaker 00

  I'm good, I'm still working on the same manicure I had two weeks ago.

• 2:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Try these, Gel X, they're gel and they're like press on, like Lee Press On nails.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And you just suddenly feel like an adult.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  All right. I'm not that interested in being an adult, though.

• 3:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Looking like one, people mistaking you for one, so they treat you differently.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I don't, like, suddenly I put those on and people are asking me for tax advice. I don't have time like that.

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's what I think of like, if I had nice big tits, like, would be like, if that, that's like what girls who have nice big tits experience in life, you know?

• 3:24Speaker 00

  I have bad news for you.

• 3:25Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 3:26Speaker 00

  Someone with medium big tits.

• 3:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  It's not that great.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  People give you a little, they're like a little nicer to you.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Oh, I mean, I get into restaurants, I get, always get a table.

• 3:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I never get a table with these A's.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  What a way to look at the world.

• 3:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  I've been ripped off with my small breasts.

• 3:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the thing of like, people who were pretty when they're kids, you're like, you don't know what real life, like, since they've been kids, they've been pretty?

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't know what it's like.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  You've never been.

• 3:51Georgia Hardstark?

  People don't treat you the way they treat everyone else.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  You've never had somebody turn around and go, "Oh, you're here?"

• 3:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  "Oh, my God."

• 3:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Or go, "Oh, you're here?" It's more like that.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Or go, "Oh, you're here."

• 4:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Or go, "Oh, you're here."

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 4:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh?

• 4:07Speaker 00

  You're here.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You tried to put the accent on the "oh." "You're here."

• 4:12Speaker 00

  It's scene study with Karen and Georgia.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And?

• 4:15Speaker 00

  And you're here.

• 4:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Scene.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  And you're here.

• 4:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I have a true crime podcast, Bone Valley, which, wow.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Hey.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  They just went for that.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Where does this take place? Hell?

• 4:28Georgia Hardstark?

  But that's the podcast's name, and then they have seasons. The season I just started listening to, I'd never heard of it, is season five, called The Devil's Quarry. The podcast Bone Valley is about wrongful convictions and miscarriage of justice in the US. So The Devil's Quarry, season five, is about this 12-year-old girl who was murdered in the 1980s and just the complete fuck-up that happened with this guy going to jail for 20 years and, you know, all the things you hate about that. But he figures a way to get himself out. But then there's a psycho who actually probably killed her who isn't, and so it's this kind of awful story, but it's really interesting.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  And important to tell.

• 5:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 5:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Highly recommend it. Paul Solotaroff is the host, he was a Rolling Stones contributor, it's just good.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Rolling Stone, the magazine?

• 5:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The magazine, no, the band, he was in the Rolling Stones.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  You said it plural.

• 5:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  He's a Rolling Stones contributor, he's like, ooh, ah, ooh, ah.

• 5:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I couldn't even have told you if it was or wasn't, right? That's it, what about you?

• 5:36Speaker 00

  Uh, scraping my brain for anything.

• 5:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't have to have anything.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  New.

• 5:39Georgia Hardstark?

  We did, we talked about nails, talked about tits, we talked about true crime.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  This, this is what ladies care about.

• 5:45Georgia Hardstark?

  This is what you've come to expect.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  And now, how to get our bodily autonomy back.

• 5:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No, don't be silly.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  God damn it.

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, let's get into it then. We have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Here are some highlights.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Explosive diarrhea alert, all caps.

• 6:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Jesus. Oh, they're doing it, I love it.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  That's right, this week on this podcast will kill you. Our experts, Erin and Aaron, are both doctors and they're putting out an emergency episode to talk about the current cyclospora outbreak, that's right, the explosive diarrhea outbreak that is happening across this nation and is real. So Erin and Aaron break down what's happening, what you need to watch out for, and they list off every single vegetable that you no longer have to eat.

• 6:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Have to eat.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Whoops, that you're not allowed to eat.

• 6:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And then over on Dear Movies, I love you, Millie, and Casey revisit the cult classic Romeo and Michelle's high school reunion, I gotta watch that again. Plus, Casey shares all the highlights from his recent 20th high school reunion.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  Beamed out. Then on Disgrace Land, Jake tells the story of Dolly Parton.

• 6:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Hear how the country icon narrowly avoided becoming the tragic heroine of one of her own murder ballads.

• 6:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh. And then in merch corner.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Finally.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We have some brand new arrivals, so exciting. Check out the new Call Your Dad collection.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Oh, pretty goddamn great. Especially.

• 7:05Georgia Hardstark?

  This tote.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  Look at this t-shirt.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  You're in a cult, Call Your Dad.

• 7:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And then we have a pop socket.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Pop socket.

• 7:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And a sticker.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Come on.

• 7:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Something for everyone.

• 7:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Check that out. And we also have the MFM Collegiate Unisex t-shirt.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Here it is.

• 7:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I love that, so it's the red flag unisex, looks like you go to my favorite murder university with a red flag, I love that one so fucking much.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  It's so cute.

• 7:29Georgia Hardstark?

  What size is that, I'm gonna give it to Vince.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  This here is a medium.

• 7:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing. Both of those are designed by our graphic designer, Vanessa Lilak, who's so talented. And then also, we have, this was our tour logo.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  It's like the design template, kind of?

• 7:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, with the panther, it's really fucking cool. It's designed by Daphne Sabine, it's inspired by our 2025 tour shirt, so, check that out, man, that's so cool.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you have FOMO for missing out on the tour in any way, you can still get a piece of that art action.

• 7:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Pretty great.

• 7:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it. Head to theexactlyrightstore.com to shop for our merch, all of our merch now.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Two Aussie lesbian lovers touch down in 1990s London and become the toast of British high society. One of them starts touting an exclusive investment opportunity, and soon the money is rolling in. Rich businessmen and England's horse-loving elite fall under their seductive spell. They even meet Queen Elizabeth. But the duo are concealing a dark past and dastardly intentions.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Evil. They were bad, bad people.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  As bad as evil?

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yes, definitely.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  Before long, a small-town detective gets wind of the duo's exploits and vows to stop them.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  She was a thieving scumbag.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Only problem is, these two are exceedingly hard to catch. Decades later, one of them is finally ready to tell all.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  I sold my soul to the devil.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  From USG Audio, Blanchard House, and Exactly Right Media, this is Royal Swindle. New episodes drop every Thursday. Listen now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 9:32Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a very special episode. This is a themed episode. Right. In honor of our newest limited series podcast release of Royal Swindle. That's right. Royal Swindle is the unbelievable true story of two Aussie con women who charmed British high society. We love a good con. Mm-hmm. In a tale of greed, lies, and spoiler alert, horses. Ah. The first two episodes are available right now wherever you get your podcasts. Please go check that out. And to celebrate the kickoff of Royal Swindle, we will now tell each other scam stories. Hell, yeah. We love a scammer. We do, and there's just so many. You go first, I think. Okay. Have you heard of Roslyn, New York, in Long Island? Long Island? Long Island. I've heard of Long Island.

• 10:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so there is a town called Roslyn in New York, a Long Island suburb. It's on the island's north shore in Nassau County, which you've heard of. Past stories that have taken us to Long Island that we've covered have been, of course, the Gilgo Beach Killer and the Amityville Horror Story. But both those took place in towns that are on the south shore and farther out on the island, where the vibe is more maritime and maybe a little more blue collar. Hmm. Not today. Roslyn is more of a quintessential New York suburb. If you remember the suburban towns in Uncut Gems and Meet the Fockers. Mm-hmm. Or Meet the Parents, whatever. That's the kind of place you can picture. So I looked it up, of course, to see what famous people came from Roslyn. Oh. Michael Crichton. Oh. Author Michael Crichton.

• 10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. A man named Arthur Agatston, who is the author of The South Beach Diet. Oh, hell, yeah. And fashion designer Lily Pultzer was born in Roslyn, New York. Okay, we're getting the sense here. Yeah. There's a little bit of carb cutting. Some affluence. There's some ballet slippers that match the little sundress you're wearing. Right, your daughter has the same matching outfit. Um, there's a lot of doctors and lawyers, the ones that, you know, commute to Manhattan. And there's one major reason that New York professionals choose to live in these towns, and that is because they have great public schools. And these people are obsessive about their children's education. It's something that you and I don't understand, except I read it in books,

• 11:38Georgia Hardstark?

  about how cutthroat getting your children into schools and good schools, and public good schools is, right? And in LA, I've had friends that are like, the child is a year and a half, and they're already talking about what kindergarten they will go to. Totally, totally. And then I just internally fall backwards out of the universe. Same. This is the story of a swindle that rocked one of Long Island's most prestigious school systems. And as it unraveled, it just got bigger and bigger. It's probably a testament to the quality of the district and its ambitious students that the story was first broken by a student at this school in the school paper. Yes.

• 12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And its alumnus later wrote and produced an HBO movie about it called Bad Education, starring Allison Janney and Hugh Jackman. That was based on a true story. Yeah, and I'll say it's a bit of a stretch, but they're such great actors. We don't care. You don't care. Yeah. This is the story of the Roslyn School District embezzlement scandal. Ooh. Yeah. The main sources for the story are an article in New York Magazine by Robert Kolker and reporting from the New York Times and Newsday, which is Long Island's local paper. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes, and I watched half of Bad Education. But it's not, it's like, they take liberties. It's not even like, right, but it is a fun little, you know, flick. Okay. Who says that, my mom?

• 13:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a fun flick. It's a fun flick. How would you know? You didn't watch it. I watched all of half of it. How dare you? How dare you? All of half. You and your big tits, put them away. Get your big tits out of my face. All right. So, it's the fall of 2002, remember that? And the Roslyn School District has been rapidly ascending towards the top of the top public districts in America. For any non-American listeners and people who don't have children and don't understand this. Bonjour. Bonjour. American public schools are controlled on three levels. Lunchtime, vibes. Reset. Cheerleading. Vibes and cheerleaders. So the first is very loosely by the federal government, which can give or withhold some state funding

• 13:43Georgia Hardstark?

  and can create policies that should protect students' constitutional rights and rights to education, or create policies that roll back these rights. Guess which one happens more often? Number two. Yeah. And on the state level, there is much more oversight into the curriculum, policies, and standards. The state administers standardized tests, and funding can be awarded or withheld based on these scores. I think it'd be interesting to have a teacher here right now to tell us their opinion. It's abysmal. The poor schools just never get the money. No, they don't. No matter what. The money that they need the most, they don't get. Yeah, there's a whole fucking episode. I'm gonna stop and lecture you every time I have the opportunity. Great, I barely graduated high school. However. It's your fault. The vast majority of school funding comes from local taxes on a district-by-district basis.

• 14:28Georgia Hardstark?

  This is why, if you look at a list of best-performing public school districts in America, they will, without fail, be some of the country's richest suburban communities, so. The rich get richer. Right. The escalator that they're automatically standing on goes all the way to heaven. Exactly. And I was educated at one of those, too, so I can't. Did Janet move you there, like, to be at a good school? Janet wouldn't let us move to LA before I graduated, because it was a good school, which is like, I appreciate that of her. Yeah, that's right, to keep you there so that you could. Yeah, I probably would have gotten in even more trouble if I had gone into Fairfax. Yeah, exactly. Oh, my God, can you imagine being in the city? I'd have the most fun. Oh. Yeah, appreciate that. So, good schools drive up home prices, too, which I hadn't considered.

• 15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Makes obvious sense, making these communities even more inaccessible over time. And I did look at the Redfin, like, house prices, and I didn't see one for under 1.5 million. Wow. And some of the higher ones were like 6 million, so. It's a fancy area. And they're very like, they all look a little Sopranos-ish. Yeah, kinda a little new. New builds. A little octagonal, maybe, or central staircase. Lots of tile instead of hardwood, you know? Right. Which depresses me. So a large chunk of the credit for the ever-improving quality of the Roslyn School District is given to the school superintendent, a 10-year veteran of the district in his late 50s named Frank Tassone, and that's who Hugh Jackman plays. I'll show you a real photo of him, actually. Oh, there's Frank. He's making a face. That's Hugh Jackman's character. You can see it.

• 15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  You can see a little Hugh Jackman in there? Yeah. He looks like a great dancer, this man, and proud, so proud. You know his shoes are nice. Look at that, how hot that cameraman is back there. Did you notice that guy? Yeah, he is hot. It a little bit looks like Ryan Gosling. He does. Is faking being the cameraman. Hey, are you the cameraman who looks like Ryan Gosling? Right in. And then that journalist is like, excuse me, the cameraman's my boyfriend. Right. That's why we move in packs like this. Sorry, sorry. Sorry, guys. Over the years, Frank has spearheaded ambitious projects, so he's a really good superintendent. I want to say Super Nintendo, because of The Simpsons. I, well, Super Nintendo Chalmers. He's the best Super Nintendo Chalmers that anyone's ever seen. Um, but he is really good.

• 16:36Georgia Hardstark?

  He has spearheaded ambitious projects like elementary school foreign language classes and high school community service requirements, which is pretty great. That makes everyone proud of the district. And the hard stats are always improving, too. Every year, the school's average SAT scores go up, and the list of college acceptances becomes more and more impressive. And Frank spearheads a lot of community outreach as well, involving Roslyn's senior citizens in school events. Oh. To like, help do old people things, tell stories, probably. But oftentimes, those are. Complain about children. Yes. Oftentimes, though, these events happen shortly before the town budget votes, but like, he's still doing it. Right. Frank is a former English teacher who still gives public lectures on classic literature. He is beloved.

• 17:21Georgia Hardstark?

  He's also a flashy dresser, Brooks Brothers suits, and he drives a. He seemed like an incredibly flashy dresser in that picture. He drives a Mercedes. He makes around 250,000 a year, so that was in 2002. So in today's money. 750? 466. Yeah. But close. I always go too high. Yeah, I was like, you're never gonna believe this, like, no, no. So he makes, you know, 250 a year, but he has no kids. So the fact that he spends a lot of money and has nice things seems like it's within his budget. People don't seem to know a ton about Frank's personal life. He has on his desk an old-timey wedding photo, like, in the movie Bad Education, it looks like it's from the 80s, maybe, of a woman in a wedding dress.

• 18:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And he says that was his wife, who tragically died of cancer many years earlier. Keeps his ring on in the movie. I don't know if it's true. People know he lives in Manhattan in a rent-stabilized building, so that's more of a reason for them not to question his, seems like he's spending a lot. For one moment, I was like, I wish this story was about how that building got rent stabilized. Like how much it costs and who lives there. Because that idea that in like, modern day, even LA or New York. You had to be grandfathered in at some point. Yeah, right. And you're like, oh, I pay 1,500 for my three and two. My old place that we used to record at was like 1,250. It's insane. God, I know. That's not what this story is. Sorry. That's next week. That's your story. So, other than this one mystery about his private life, which he doesn't discuss much.

• 18:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Frank is outgoing, he's friendly. This is probably why the school board is inclined to follow his lead in 2002, when it comes out that his assistant superintendent for business, the person who signs the checks for the district, a woman named Pam Gluckin, has been stealing money from the district. So, Alison Janney is who plays her, and here is what she actually looks like. Pam. She looks like a woman you'd see in the office of your school. Absolutely. A woman who literally, those readers are glued to the end of her nose like that. And she's always rushing around, and she always smells like coffee, and you know. But she knows everyone's name. She knows everyone's mom's name. She's always busy. She knows exactly what's going on. She knows everyone's name. Yes, exactly. They show that in this movie. So, she's well-liked, she's outgoing.

• 19:34Georgia Hardstark?

  She often jokes about how hard she's working and how late she stays. But it seems like it's true. She is kind of like his right hand and knows everything. And while she makes decent money as a high-up administrator in a wealthy district, it's maybe a little suspicious with her that she can afford to have three homes. One in Bellmore, which is a working-class Long Island town, one in Florida, and one in the Hamptons. But she also has boats, she takes lavish vacations, she has fancy cars and nice jewelry. So, it's a little more sus. It's just funny to me. Maybe it's her husband who makes the money, you know, like. But yeah, she could have had a rich aunt. And credit. Credit. She's just really good at paying off her credit card every month. Or bad. We don't know. Or really bad. Yeah.

• 20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  But my thing is, why can't people just not spend the money just for a little while? Lavishly, totally. Keep it on the low profile. Just go to CVS and treat yourself once a month. Listen to us tell you how to cheat. Like, don't. Like, I knew when I was 19, if I stole clothes from the Melrose Clothing Store I was working at, don't wear them to work. Yes. You know? And pick your one thing, and then go for three years. But like, at least cover your tracks in some way. But that idea, it's like, hey, you want to go try my ski doo? Let's go out this weekend. And they're like, morning. Or come over, I'm having a party at my Hampton's house. Disclaimer, I never stole any clothes from the Melrose. Disclaimer, I never stole $20 from my cafe job and justified it by saying everyone's mean to me.

• 21:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Never happened, and statute of limitations. Can't prove it. Yep. Didn't happen. Yeah, it's a little suspicious. But no one really bats an eye at this because a lot of Roslyn families have homes in other locations. They don't ask questions. That said, it's still a shock to everyone when the board realizes that Pam has been using a district credit card to make personal purchases. Trackable. So trackable, but she's the one who does the tracking, or like the approving. Yeah. So. Two sets of eyes. It seems like, I'm sure she started slow and then knew she was never going to get caught, and just kind of went, you're all in at that point. Whether for $10 or a million dollars, you're going to get fired and going to get caught. So, you might as well do the million. So then you're like, we're going on vacation. Totally.

• 21:43Georgia Hardstark?

  That just makes me think of the early days when you and I were sharing, like, American Express cards. And then if I would do the thing where suddenly I don't have my card on me, and I would just text you and be like, I just bought $80 worth of lip liner at CVS, just so you know. Before, when we were still handling it. I know, I know. So crazy. I believed you every time. Well, it's true. I know. It's a good thing I believed you. I know it is. Or there'd be like a six, you'd text me like, I just spent $6.25 at Chipotle, and I didn't have my card, so I used our card. Yeah. Like, okay. Did it all the time. You don't have to pay it back. I know. But it's also that kind of thing where I think that, at least we always had that. Yeah. Where it's just like, you're not going to steal money from me. Totally. You're not, that's not how you are.

• 22:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No. That's like, very important in a partnership. Here comes the big reveal. Actually. Wait, I do owe you. Didn't you give me $100 in cash one time recently? I gave you $20 because I didn't have a five, and said, you have probably done this for me many times in the past. We're even. So, we're even. We're absolutely even. You heard it here, folks. That is provable. Okay, district credit card. One of those credit card purchases finally raises the alarm because someone used it to buy a bunch of renovation supplies at a few Home Depots around Long Island, outside of Roslyn. The clerk, okay, here's the snitch clerk at a Home Depot in a town called Selden, which is about 35 miles east of Roslyn.

• 23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And everyone knows everyone in Long Island, it seems like. You're not going to get away with shit. People know whose kid you are, people know whose cousin you are, like, where you're supposed to be, where you're not supposed to be. Oh, yeah. You remember Vicki Ernst, one of the producers on our TV show? Yeah. Vicki's from Long Island. Right. And she knows every single person on her block. And anytime she sees anybody, like, it's about community. Right. Gossip, good, bad, everything. You're in it. You're in it for life. So, basically, this snitch, I'm not putting him down. Good for him. This person. This person. So, don't call him a snitch. Is that what you're saying? Well, I don't know. You're right. He recognized the person who was using the credit card as Pam's son. And she's like, that's weird.

• 23:50Georgia Hardstark?

  He is a contractor, but why was he buying supplies for the Roslyn School Districts on their card, but not at the Home Depot in Roslyn, in a different town? And why did those supplies get delivered to a home in the Hamptons and not to the Roslyn School? Red flag, red flag. Yeah. And like, the son's being lazy at this point. In the movie, she like, beats the shit out of him for doing that. It's very, Alison Janney's so good. She's so good. So, this clerk contacts the school board and tells them what happened. When the school's auditor finishes his work, just looking into it, he finds that $250,000 have been stolen. And today's money. 250, and this was 2003? 2002. 2002. You want to know how much the other one was?

• 24:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it was the same amount. It was four something. It was the same amount. Oh, 450? 466. Okay. So, today's money about 466. The board convenes in a meeting with Frank, our guy, to figure out the next steps. They're all just so pissed off and upset. And he surprises all of them by saying, we shouldn't turn her in, we shouldn't go to the DA, we shouldn't press charges, let's not raise the alarms. Instead, let's let her resign quietly, and we'll inform the state licensing board so they revoke her school administration licenses. He doesn't want to totally throw the book at her. He points out that if Pam is prosecuted, the district will have to keep paying her until the case is settled.

• 25:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And possibly more importantly, it'll make the district look really bad when it becomes a huge news story. It will make the school budget harder to pass. But if she resigns and promises to pay back the money, the district will take less of a financial hit, or really no hit at all if she pays it back. Basically, they want to avoid scandal. They look really good. They also were like, if colleges see Roslyn School District on applications and know that it is like a tarnished school, it's going to affect that. Yeah. And they don't want that to happen. They've worked so hard. It's only $250,000. Let's let her go. Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, and that is the kind of definition these days feels like of corruption in that way. Because that's exactly what happened with Dr. Death.

• 25:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Where it's like, we can't, the insurance won't bring this against these doctors because it's so small and it ends everything. And it's like, that kind of thinking of like, how bad is a thing to be a career ender? Yeah. Or a reputation? You'd hope hurting and killing people would be the limit, but guess what? It's not, ever. It's never. It's money. It's money. So, the board takes Frank up on this idea, and Pam plays ball, and she goes quietly. About a year and a half passed without incident. And in that time period, Roslyn has been ranked by Wall Street Journal as the sixth-best school district in the nation. Which in today's best school districts, no. Number two. Exactly. And the parents, school board, and administration, they're so thrilled about this.

• 26:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Basically, like, Frank can't do anything wrong to them. Every Roslyn homeowner is also thrilled since more demand for the school system means higher home prices. Everyone's happy with him. It's all frothing, but the camera cuts back to that wedding picture on his desk. Right. For me. Right. Then it all comes crashing down. You're right. In February of 2004, an anonymous letter is sent to the members of the school board, some school administrators, the district attorney, and several local newspapers. So, we never find out who sent this letter. But they sent it to everybody. Everybody. It claims that Pam Gluckin had stolen much more than $250,000 that the school's auditor had initially reported, which some of these people didn't know about that at all.

• 27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And that Frank both knew about it and had embezzled funds himself. The letter says, quote, "We believe that Dr. Frank Tassone participated in this embezzlement scandal so as to support his lavish lifestyle with the help of Ms. Gluckin. He submitted his personal credit card statements, bills for personal vacations and trips, and various household bills, and included them in the cover-up," end quote. Just realized I don't have my glasses on. There, now, now I won't. Now you can read. You're like, the sinking of the Titanic. Oh, shit, this is blank.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Two Aussie lesbian lovers touch down in 1990s London and become the toast of British high society. One of them starts touting an exclusive investment opportunity. And soon, the money is rolling in. Rich businessmen and England's horse-loving elite fall under their seductive spell. They even meet Queen Elizabeth.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  But the duo are concealing a dark past and dastardly intentions.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Evil. They were bad, bad people. As bad as evil? Yeah.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  Definitely. Before long, a small town detective gets wind of the duo's exploits and vows to stop them.

• 28:46Speaker 04

  She was a thieving scumbag.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Only problem is, these two are exceedingly hard to catch.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  Decades later, one of them is finally ready to tell all. I sold my soul to the devil. From USG Audio, Lanchard House, and Exactly Right Media, this is Royal Swindle. New episodes drop every Thursday. Listen now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency?

• 29:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Please help us. They're everywhere.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 29:33Speaker 03

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 29:35Speaker 04

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 29:39Speaker 04

  Allson swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  That's one of the plagues for Bible.

• 29:43Speaker 04

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 29:53Speaker 05

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 30:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So it gets sent to all these people, but Frank gets a lucky break because one of the letters is returned to sender, but for some reason whoever sent the letter used the district office as its return address. So he got ahold of a copy of it. Meaning, I wonder, it's probably someone in that school who sent it in the first place, right?

• 30:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Like a teacher or someone else in the office.

• 30:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, because they would need to maybe access that mail slot if there was mail back.

• 30:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Like, why would they put it back there? Exactly. So it winds up on Frank's desk. He freaks out, launches into a preemptive strike. He calls a meeting with the representatives from every part of the school staff and the PTA to present the letter and say that the allegations are not true, but that he's going to call back the auditor to go through the finances and clear it all up. He's going to look through every single little thing. At first, people go along with this and praise him for being so forthcoming. But at the end of the month, an editor for the school newspaper, so a student, the senior girl.

• 31:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 31:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Named Rebecca Rombaum, which like, you use that name in good health. It's so cool. She gets a copy of the letter somehow and writes an article in the school paper about it.

• 31:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Georgia Hardstark?

  This is... She's one of... She's like, yeah.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Sitting down, crick, crick, crick, crick.

• 31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 31:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Revenge is mine.

• 31:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I mean, and I looked her up and I'm like, she better be like a famous journalist now. And I don't know, she might work for a school district. I can't tell what she does, but she lays low.

• 31:43Karen Kilgariff?

  She's a genius and just out there amongst the people.

• 31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It runs in the paper's March issue. In the article, she gets a quote from Frank explaining why he didn't come forward with the allegations against Pam when they first... She's fucking going for it.

• 31:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus, she's kind of on the record.

• 31:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And she was wearing a wire when she asked those questions.

• 31:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. He says, quote, "I think their reputation at the school district was at stake," end quote. And that's why he didn't come forward. Rebecca later writes in the New York Times that the student response to the article was underwhelming. Because of course it is. They don't give a shit about the school paper. Did you ever read your school paper?

• 32:13Karen Kilgariff?

  We didn't have one.

• 32:15Georgia Hardstark?

  But yes, you did. You just didn't know.

• 32:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It was, no one was aware. But also, just that kind of thing of like, to have lived as the girl that always thought she was doing like justice and like fighting the good fight.

• 32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And then turning around and no one's ever behind you. You're just like, mhm, okay.

• 32:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that sounds right.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:32Georgia Hardstark?

  She says, quote, "During school that day, I watched for reactions to the story, but the students as a whole were not as receptive as I had expected. We don't have formal circulation numbers, but by the number of papers still lying around school at the end of the day, I would say that our April Fool's Day issue was much more widely read." Because the kids don't give a shit about a fucking...

• 32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  They see embezzlement and they're like, that's adult problems.

• 32:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Boring. Totally.

• 32:55Karen Kilgariff?

  That's like, we don't balance the budget.

• 32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, my day's going fine.

• 32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  But I think if we had written the headline more of like, "Do you still want that pizza shaped like a square?" Well, guess what? The embezzlement issue is taking it away from you.

• 33:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. And this is no April Fools. There was interest, however, at the next Board of Education meeting because at least a few issues of that newspaper had made it home to parents. So the parents were interested in the embezzlement issue.

• 33:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And it turns around, it's Walter Cronkite is reading this student newspaper.

• 33:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Honey?

• 33:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:25Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the dad.

• 33:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Here we go.

• 33:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It's only after this meeting with the Board of Education and after Rebecca's article that Newsday, Long Island's local paper, picks up the story and that's when everything starts to fall apart for Frank. Over the next few months, the DA, the school's administration, and Newsday are all combing through the school's expenses and running every last receipt down. And very quickly, two things become apparent. Pam had stolen far more than $250,000, and there's just no denying that Frank had also stolen money.

• 33:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And was involved. Investigators find multiple kinds of questionable expenses. There are real payments to vendors, but the amounts these vendors were billed and received is far less than had been documented. Meaning, they're like, we've paid this vendor $500. And the vendor's like, we only asked for 200. We only got 200. You know what I mean?

• 34:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 34:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Boop, pocket the rest.

• 34:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Beep, let's go to Red Lobster.

• 34:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. There are line items that have never been questioned before, but now look very suspicious once they start actually looking. The district had paid for two trips to London. Okay, and here's what we were talking about, like, be chill and don't be flashy, on the Concorde. Just get first class.

• 34:35Karen Kilgariff?

  First class is amazing.

• 34:36Georgia Hardstark?

  It's amazing.

• 34:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Plain old.

• 34:38Georgia Hardstark?

  One trip on the...

• 34:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And insanely expensive.

• 34:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. One trip on the Concorde, it was 20 grand, and another was 30 grand. Bro.

• 34:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Because she had to get there fast.

• 34:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's him.

• 34:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's what he did.

• 34:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Good lord.

• 34:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Like, lay low.

• 34:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Sir, please.

• 34:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't you know?

• 34:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you never been to Las Vegas?

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you never lied? And the district had paid for multiple trips to Las Vegas.

• 35:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So funny. Good job. Some for actual conferences and some seemingly just for fun. And he'd like bring a bunch of the school board members, who I don't think were aware of what was happening. He had used over $56,000 in school money to pay for treatments at a Manhattan weight loss clinic.

• 35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Just don't do that.

• 35:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Not when the South Beach diet's right there.

• 35:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 35:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  In today's money, 56,000, a little more, would have been more than, do you want to...

• 35:26Karen Kilgariff?

  300,000?

• 35:27Georgia Hardstark?

  100,000. Someday, we're going to get it again.

• 35:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Someday.

• 35:29Georgia Hardstark?

  In 10 years, we're both going to do it again. While this is going on, Frank just keeps going out of town. While they're looking into it, he's just like, I'm out this week. I'm out this week.

• 35:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm out this week. I sprained my ankle.

• 35:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. I sprained my everything. He spends March and April going to Las Vegas, Puerto Rico, then California, Florida, and Vegas again. Every time a new weird charge is found, Frank isn't around to explain or discuss it.

• 35:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Then there are sketchy charges from companies that appear to not exist, or be very, very sketchy. So in early June, a school administrator realizes that over the years, the school has paid close to $800,000 to a company called Word Power, which purports to make pamphlets. So 800,000 on pamphlets.

• 36:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Those real good pamphlets, though.

• 36:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Nice stock.

• 36:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Real shiny and slick.

• 36:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, those ones. In today's money, that would be 1.5 million. This is a lot of money for pamphlets.

• 36:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Scamflits.

• 36:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, this latte is not helping me at all.

• 36:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, this Coke that I'm drinking, that I'm snorting. But the weirder thing is that the company is headquartered, this pamphlet company is headquartered from an apartment in Manhattan, Frank's address. The company's CEO is listed as a man named Steven Signorelli.

• 36:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And it becomes clear over the course of the investigation that he and Frank lived together. At the same time and right around the same point in the investigations, investigators noticed that Frank had purchased a house in Las Vegas with another man, this one a good bit younger than him, this man. Investigators also noticed that Frank had sent multiple FedEx shipments on the district's account, meaning like, he just went and printed up a FedEx, which he'd all stolen his fucking stamp or two.

• 37:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:08Georgia Hardstark?

  From work. It's like...

• 37:10Karen Kilgariff?

  The FedEx account at work is the place where you can get a little liberty, you can take some liberties because it's already going out. It's all business.

• 37:18Georgia Hardstark?

  But now they know what address it was sent to.

• 37:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  If you hadn't done that, they wouldn't have been able to track the address.

• 37:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And didn't they use the money to buy the house in Vegas?

• 37:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know about that, but probably like...

• 37:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all in the mix.

• 37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. So he sent multiple FedEx shipments to this address in Las Vegas. It's never uncovered what was in these shipments. God, I wish I could see. Seems like the working hypothesis is that it might have been just cash.

• 37:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a ton of post-it notes.

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Straight up cash. And he's like, in the movie, it's not true, but they show the younger man as an ex-student of Frank's, who's also an exotic dancer. I think that part was correct at some point, but it's not true. So he could have been like, laundering cash, Las Vegas, there's no better place.

• 37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 37:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone, just remember that.

• 37:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And the idea that you just like fill up a box with some bands.

• 38:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 38:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Go for it.

• 38:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. So now it's apparent that Frank has been in romantic relationships with men. That's the thing that he had been keeping from everyone. And Roslyn's a pretty liberal town, so people are mostly a little sad that Frank felt that he had to hide his sexuality. But at the same time, it's 2004, and a high-ranking, openly gay school administrator is not common. And I'm sure some parents would have clutched their pearls.

• 38:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Frank will later say that he and Steven, his partner who lives at his Manhattan house, had an open relationship. Steven knew about the other man in Las Vegas, like he wasn't being deceitful in that sense.

• 38:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you believe that?

• 38:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I do. Yeah. Why not? I don't know. I don't hate him. I...

• 38:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right.

• 38:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He made some really stupid decisions and trapped himself. And we've all made stupid decisions and luckily we've gotten away with a lot of them.

• 38:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I mean, it'd be a much more infuriating story if he was stealing from kids from low-income areas.

• 39:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's just like, you're basically skimming the cream off of the cream of the crop.

• 39:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you know, and they kind of hinted this in the show, where you know, like, all the parents of the students that he's helping to succeed in their lives and get into good college and have good careers and get paid well are making so much fucking money. They have so much money.

• 39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Meanwhile, he's being paid 250 a year. And eventually, that doesn't seem like it's fair to him.

• 39:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 39:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So he just starts skimming, starts taking a little, where it's like, they won't even miss it because they're so fucking wealthy. Like, I get how that mindset could happen to someone.

• 39:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, it's easy to rationalize things like that because all you have to do is say, "I'm being ripped off," and then you can do kind of anything you want.

• 39:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's a "how dare you," that rationalizes it, and then suddenly...

• 39:48Karen Kilgariff?

  "How dare you" builds you a bridge to free money in Las Vegas.

• 39:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Amen. Amen. So when all these revelations finally come out in early June of 2004, Frank resigns. When all is said and done, it appears that between Frank and Pam, there's like six people total who end up kind of being implicated in this, including Frank and Pam, around $11.2 million has been stolen from the school district.

• 40:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking A.

• 40:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Today's money.

• 40:15Karen Kilgariff?

  11.2? I'm gonna go ahead and stick that right into the area of $185,000.

• 40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  20 mil-- what? You just went the wrong way. You just went down.

• 40:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I was just saying, as I was talking, I started to panic and I forgot what the base number was.

• 40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  20 million, yeah. I have done that.

• 40:33Karen Kilgariff?

  There's so much pressure.

• 40:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I hate it. I hate it, but we gotta give them what they love.

• 40:37Karen Kilgariff?

  We got to. This is what people come here for.

• 40:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. So almost 20 million.

• 40:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 40:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They just fucking went for it.

• 40:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And my sister has to buy crayons every year herself.

• 40:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Exactly.

• 40:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And this makes it the largest embezzlement from a school district in American history. So if you're gonna go big, kids, go to Vegas. In all, six people, including a son and a niece of Pam Gluckin, and the domestic partner of Frank Tison, plead guilty in connection with the thefts from the Roslin schools. They're actually-- the maximum they could have received was 15 to 20 years for that.

• 41:13Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 41:13Georgia Hardstark?

  But in 2006, Frank, who pleads guilty to stealing about $2.2 million, is sentenced to four to 12 years in prison. He's released for good behavior in 2010. Due to a loophole in the New York state pension law, he still collects $173,495.04 a year.

• 41:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit.

• 41:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 41:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So he basically is still fully employed with a great job.

• 41:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And hopefully still his rent-controlled apartment.

• 41:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, dude.

• 41:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And he'll get that money for the rest of his life. Loopholes.

• 41:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Loopholes.

• 41:46Georgia Hardstark?

  He does repay the district the entire $2.2 million.

• 41:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 41:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Which, you know it's more than that, though. There's no way they got it that close and right.

• 41:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Yeah, yeah.

• 41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  All the money that like they couldn't track down. I'm sure it's millions and millions more. Pam Gluckin admits to stealing $4.3 million and is sentenced to three to nine years in prison. She ends up serving five. As of 2011, she had repaid about half the money she had stolen. I can't track her down at all. I saw one article that said she passed away in 2017, another that she worked in Manhattan somewhere. If she's still alive, she's probably paid back more since 2011, but I can't track her down. In the years since, all of our Long Island school districts have had a much harder time getting residents to pass their budgets, not surprisingly. While towns used to faithfully vote yes on school budgets year after year,

• 42:39Georgia Hardstark?

  voters have been less likely to do so in the aftermath of this scandal. After all, the school district now seems to do just fine using significantly less than its allotted funds. So for someone not skimming off the top, they don't need as much money.

• 42:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're calling it the Roslin effect.

• 42:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also can't we just take that and put it back down into where it is truly and desperately needed?

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. You'd hope.

• 43:04Karen Kilgariff?

  One would hope.

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  The author of the anonymous letter that led to Frank's undoing has never been identified, and that is the story of the Roslyn School embezzlement scandal.

• 43:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. Well done.

• 43:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 43:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I've never heard of that. I never saw that.

• 43:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Bad education.

• 43:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I just really-- the idea of just like when you get away with something a little bit, and then you keep going to the point where you're handing out cards and doing all those things.

• 43:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Multiple members of her family had like annex or whatever cards.

• 43:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just you're living in a fantasy world.

• 43:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 43:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And then it ends.

• 43:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. If you want to watch Hugh Jackman make out with a really cute twink, definitely watch Bad Education.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Two Aussie lesbian lovers touch down in 1990s London and become the toast of British high society. One of them starts touting an exclusive investment opportunity, and soon their money is rolling in. Rich businessmen and England's horse-loving elite fall under their seductive spell. They even meet Queen Elizabeth. But the duo are concealing a dark past and dastardly intentions.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Evil. They were bad, bad people.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  As bad as evil?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Yes, definitely.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Before long, a small-town detective gets wind of the duo's exploits and vows to stop them.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  She was a thieving scumbag.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  Only problem is, these two are exceedingly hard to catch. Decades later, one of them is finally ready to tell all. I sold my soul to the devil. From USG Audio, Blanchard House, and Exactly Right Media, this is Royal Swindle. New episodes drop every Thursday. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 911, what's your emergency?

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 45:23Speaker 04

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  Sin swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 45:41Speaker 05

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality, because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 46:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so mine begins in 1902.

• 46:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 46:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You know when that was?

• 46:12Georgia Hardstark?

  1902.

• 46:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Turn of the century.

• 46:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And in New York City.

• 46:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 46:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's the Gilded Age. There's a well-dressed woman in her 40s sitting in the lobby of a luxury hotel in Manhattan. She scans the ritzy crowd until she sees the man she's looking for. He's a lawyer and also a dear friend of her husband's from back home in Cleveland, Ohio. His name is James Dillon. The woman pretends she doesn't see James, sitting there alone, but as she walks past him, she brushes up against his arm. He looks up. He's pleasantly surprised by seeing a familiar face. "Oh, it's the lady from back home, my friend's wife." He asks her what she's doing in New York. She explains that she's here for a private family matter, and she cannot speak anymore on the topic. Please.

• 47:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you do this?

• 47:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. You may not ask me any more questions, but can I have a ride in your carriage to my father's house?

• 47:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 47:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So he was like, "Of course." They set off in his carriage, and they arrive at a towering 5th Avenue mansion. James watches as she hops out of the carriage, knocks on the mansion's front door, and goes inside. He's shocked, of course. The woman's husband has never let on that his wife comes from so much money. So he waits there for her, which made me laugh when I realized that was what was happening. So she goes in, does her business. When she comes back out about a half an hour later, she's carrying a large envelope under her arm. She gets back into the carriage. She reminds James, "This is a private family matter, and she cannot tell him anything that's going on."

• 47:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it, toots.

• 47:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't show you what's in this envelope.

• 47:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't ask.

• 47:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But then she lets it slip.

• 47:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  She suddenly says, "Listen, the reason I'm here on this family business is because I am the illegitimate daughter of steel magnate Andrew Carnegie."

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 48:02Karen Kilgariff?

  "And I've just gone into his house and collected this envelope, which is all the paperwork proving that he has given me a small fortune." Take a little peeky poo at this.

• 48:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Calm down.

• 48:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And she shows him.

• 48:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 48:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And of course, James is shocked, but he totally buys it, and he's not the only one who does. The story this woman will tell about this inheritance and who she is is so convincing that she fools almost everyone around her, and it enables her to live like an heiress for years and years. She's the embodiment of the very Gilded Age value that appearances are everything. She's one of America's most prolific con artists, known best by her alias Cassie Chadwick. This is the story of Elizabeth Bigley, the queen of Ohio.

• 48:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 48:53Karen Kilgariff?

  The sources used for today's story are the book The Impostor Heiress by Annie Reid, and a 2012 Smithsonian magazine article by Abbott Kayler entitled "The High Priestess of Fraudulent Finance."

• 49:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Fun.

• 49:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And the rest are in our show notes. So this all begins in 1857 in Ontario, Canada, with the birth of a little girl named Elizabeth Bigley. She comes from a hard-working, salt-of-the-earth household in a very small town in Ontario. Her father works for the railroad. Her mother's a homemaker for the family's eight children. And according to writer Annie Reid, quote, "The Bigleys passed without much comment in their quiet corner of Ontario until Elizabeth came along."

• 49:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit. She's fucking-- what's this? She's doing this?

• 49:34Karen Kilgariff?

  She's got the lasso over her head. Even as a little girl, Elizabeth becomes known for getting fixated on things, particularly the very pretty dresses and jewelry that she sees the ladies in town wear. And over time, those fixations become obsessions. Elizabeth will do anything she can to get what she wants. When she's 21 years old, she goes into a local barber shop. She asks to have all of her hair cut off and then to have a fake mustache made of that hair. Uh huh. So then journalist Annie Reed writes, quote, "Elizabeth walked out of the shop, a mustachioed young man. It had become obvious to her that the way to get what she wanted was money, and the best way to get money was to be a man," end quote.

• 50:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 50:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? So that same day, Elizabeth, with her short hair and her mustache, takes a watch she'd recently pilfered off an unsuspecting man down to the local pawn shop, where she attempts to pawn it under an invented male name. But her disguise isn't convincing enough.

• 50:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Fake mustaches, it's never gonna look legit. Just felt like weird and sitting there. And also, it's like her first day trying to do this, essentially. The clerk immediately calls the police. They take her into custody. Elizabeth is, eventually, her father has to go down and get her from the police station. And they take a long walk of shame home together, with her still wearing her little mustache and dressed like a man. Legally, it seems, she only gets a slap on the wrist for this, though. Do you have pictures of her?

• 51:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, yes. So here's Elizabeth in the classic turn-of-the-century portrait sense.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, cute.

• 51:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the name she later is known by, which is Cassie L. Chadwick. You know when someone has a middle initial like that.

• 51:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That they use it regularly, that what about them?

• 51:21Karen Kilgariff?

  They're a fraudster.

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:22Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure. They're, they're trying to pass a bad check on to you.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Heads up.

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Good to know.

• 51:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So, a few months after all of this happens, Elizabeth walks into a general store and grabs a bunch of stuff. She grabs combs and ribbons and fabrics, anything she can get her hands on. She takes it all up to the clerk. The clerk tells her it's gonna be about $250. And Elizabeth goes through her purse and hands the man a card identifying her as, quote, "an heiress to $18,000."

• 51:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You can just make a card that says that?

• 51:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Just go ahead and read this.

• 51:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna want one of those, right?

• 51:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Please.

• 51:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like sending your kid to the market with cigarettes. My mom says I can have this. My mom says I'm worth $18,000.

• 52:02Karen Kilgariff?

  "Hey, do you mind selling my son a pack of Marlboro Lights?" So basically, her quoting that she is an heiress to $18,000 in today's money would mean, how much money is she gonna get?

• 52:13Georgia Hardstark?

  $236.

• 52:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a little bit higher.

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  $331.

• 52:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's $600,000.

• 52:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit!

• 52:19Karen Kilgariff?

  In today's money.

• 52:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 52:20Karen Kilgariff?

  The assumption here, Maren is pointing this out, that the $250 is already scaled to today's money, because if she went and did that, and it was $250 in turn-of-the-century money, that would be, she would have bought $8,000 worth of stuff.

• 52:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, which is like hard to do back then.

• 52:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So, don't think it's that.

• 52:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 52:40Karen Kilgariff?

  But anyway, after she explains her inheritance is gummed up in the legal system at the moment, and she, she doesn't have access to it right now, but she's going to, she would like to pay with a promissory note. And that's basically a formal IOU. She hands a promissory note over that appears to be signed by a wealthy farmer from the area. It's unclear how much this is worth, but it's more than the $250 bill that she's just rung up.

• 53:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 53:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And of course, as you may have suspected, this promissory note is fake. Elizabeth created the card out of high-end card stock, opted for a tasteful typeface, and forged the signature of that farmer that is on it.

• 53:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 53:20Karen Kilgariff?

  There is no $18,000 inheritance, I'm sorry to tell you.

• 53:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Ugh, my heart.

• 53:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. I hate to be the one. That, basically, is the quote that's meant to ease the clerk's mind, convince him she's good for the money. This is an era where it would not be unusual to accept a promissory note as payment and give the difference back to the customer, kinda like cashing someone's check.

• 53:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 53:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the scam, and that's what this clerk does. And by the time he actually tries to cash the promissory note, either, they're not sure, either down at the bank or directly with the farmer that his name is on it, Elizabeth is long gone and all her ribbons and combs are gone, too.

• 53:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. It's giving me Paper Moon vibes.

• 53:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly.

• 54:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That scene in Paper Moon.

• 54:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Just hold yourself over until you get out of town.

• 54:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that.

• 54:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta see that movie again.

• 54:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It's one of my favorite movies of all time.

• 54:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So she gets away with it, and of course, then is emboldened to try it again in nearby towns. But just one year later, in 1879, she's 22 years old, she gets caught, she gets arrested. And when this case goes to trial, the jury seems very sympathetic. So this is that kinda thing, where it's just like, she looked right, she sounded right, she was a charmer, she was probably a sociopath.

• 54:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Karen Kilgariff?

  She was good at doing this and conning.

• 54:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Desperate.

• 54:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for, no.

• 54:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's just that she had the charm, which is something I like, where it's just like, she clearly told people stories either they wanted to hear, or she was good at doing it.

• 54:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 54:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And there is a kind of magnetism to those people.

• 54:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And sometimes the stories that like made the other person feel good about themselves, in a way, that made them not question what was happening.

• 54:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't tell anyone I'm going to tell you.

• 54:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, all that kinda stuff.

• 54:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So the jury's on her side. They see her as troubled, basically, but not a hardened criminal. So in the end, she's found not guilty by reason of insanity, and she's released back to her parents.

• 55:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, they're like, crazy bitch, get the fuck out of here.

• 55:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Just go home.

• 55:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, you crazy bitch.

• 55:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 55:13Georgia Hardstark?

  This was fun.

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You crazy bitch, it's not your birthday for a month, stop it. So, now it's the early 1880s, Elizabeth is in her mid-20s, and she decides she's getting out of Canada for Cleveland, Ohio.

• 55:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, you know, glamorous Cleveland, Ohio.

• 55:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Next step up, out of Ontario, straight to Cleveland. Her older sister, Alice, lives in Cleveland with her wealthy businessman husband, and his name is Standish Milton York.

• 55:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 55:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So she gets to move right into that house. They live in an affluent part of town. The house is gorgeously decorated, there's expensive furniture and decor everywhere. Elizabeth basically gets set up for a new life, and she is supposed to be there, working toward an honest living and starting over, but that's not our girl. That's not what Elizabeth does. She starts using fake names to take out loans on her sister's belongings.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl, that's shitty.

• 56:06Karen Kilgariff?

  She can't stop.

• 56:07Georgia Hardstark?

  She can't help herself. She's a swindler.

• 56:10Karen Kilgariff?

  True swindler.

• 56:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Swindler's List.

• 56:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 56:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe. When lenders show up at the apartment demanding the payment, Elizabeth leaves, Elizabeth, Elizabeth leaves town, and she leaves her sister high and dry.

• 56:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That's shitty.

• 56:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Alice and Standish have to pick up the pieces after she basically sells their house out from under them.

• 56:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god. Don't burn the bridges that you're already on, that are closest to you that are stable. Burn other bridges, not that one.

• 56:39Karen Kilgariff?

  These types of people love the close burns, cuz that's where all, like, they, that's where all the excitement is. Are they gonna find out that we're sitting at a dining room table I already sold?

• 56:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 56:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, she's now on the streets, running away, in need of cash. So she actually turns to a profession that has long been a haven for con artists, not everybody, of course, but some, and that is the art of fortune telling.

• 57:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 57:04Karen Kilgariff?

  She bills herself as a clairvoyant named Madame Le Dever, or Devere, and she begins to steadily attract a middle-class clientele. In her day-to-day life, she calls herself Lydia Bigley. She tells people she's an Irish heiress, which, that's a contradiction in terms, right there. Unless it's Guinness, there's no fucking way. So this is the identity she's using in 1882, when she visits a local doctor named Wallace Springsteen, who, like most people, finds her incredibly charming. We don't know how old he is, what we do know is he was a Civil War veteran, which would put him, Maren says her hunch is he's in his early 40s, while Elizabeth is still in her mid-20s.

• 57:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 57:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Springsteen, undeterred by the fact that she's much younger and a patient of his, begins to pursue Elizabeth, who's now going by Lydia, the fortune teller. The two have a whirlwind romance, because of course, every early 20-year-old loves an old doctor to just hang out with while he-

• 58:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sweep them off their feet, but don't hurt your back.

• 58:08Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, easy, easy. Watch out for the gout. She manages to conceal her dark past until the ink is dry on their marriage certificate, but then she makes one very sloppy move, and that is agreeing to have a wedding announcement. They always want the credit.

• 58:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 58:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So, and it's complete with a photograph.

• 58:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 58:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's published in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

• 58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 58:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And now all the lenders that know Elizabeth's face, that she scammed in the past and evaded, including her furious sister, Alice, they all come out of the woodwork, right to the Springsteins' door, demanding the doctor pay off his wife's debt.

• 58:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So many rookie mistakes, starting with not leaving Cleveland.

• 58:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. You can't have all of it. You can't be there as the proud young couple-

• 58:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 58:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And get away with all the scams.

• 58:54Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's so weird that she would do that.

• 58:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So, of course, finding out about his wife's debts stuns Dr. Springsteen. He immediately files for divorce. The relationship is over 12 days after the wedding.

• 59:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, he went for it.

• 59:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. He has to pay her debts. As her husband, he is responsible.

• 59:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 59:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And to the point where he actually writes a notice for a Cleveland-area newspaper saying, quote, "I hereby forbid any person from trusting or harboring my wife, as I will pay no bills of her contracting after this date."

• 59:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 59:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's so bad, he has to go to the press and be like, no more.

• 59:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Holy shit.

• 59:32Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't have the amount, but it's basically that period of time.

• 59:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:36Karen Kilgariff?

  She can really churn it up.

• 59:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  When she wants to. So basically, him publishing this letter cancels Elizabeth's ability to swindle people in the Cleveland area. So she picks up and heads over to Erie, Pennsylvania, a place you love. She moves into a boarding house under the name Maisie Bagley.

• 59:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Change the last name, girl. I know you're attached to it, but like-

• 59:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Bigley is the real name.

• 1:00:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So she's just doing little things, little things here and there.

• 1:00:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:00:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Still. And soon after she arrives, as Maisie, she starts hanging out in common spaces, in this place where she got her apartment, or her, you know, her room, and starts coughing and hacking uncontrollably, sometimes so violently that she coughs up blood.

• 1:00:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Gross.

• 1:00:22Karen Kilgariff?

  What's happening is that she tells the boarders she's very sick, she's in need of immediate medical care, and needs to go back home to Cleveland. Everyone's so concerned with her, that they pull their money, and these are just people renting rooms, and they buy her the ticket to get back to Cleveland, so she can get that.

• 1:00:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a vintage Kickstarter.

• 1:00:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 1:00:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Or what are they called?

• 1:00:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a vintage Kickstarter from a person who is not coughing up blood. What she's doing is going to her room and picking at her gums.

• 1:00:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 1:00:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Until when she coughs, blood comes out, because she basically like picks out her gums.

• 1:00:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's smart, that is convincing. Like, how can she be lying? There's blood.

• 1:00:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And also, get her the fuck out of here, cuz she has consumption, essentially.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  She's gonna make us all sick.

• 1:01:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So, they do that, and then she's like, on the train, "Thanks so, so much, I'll pay you back when I get home."

• 1:01:10Georgia Hardstark?

  She's waving her bloody handkerchief at them, "Goodbye." Bye.

• 1:01:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Two weeks later, a letter comes to the boarding house with the shocking and sudden news that Maisie is dead. So, say goodbye to that 25 cents that broke you. For the next few years, Elizabeth lays low and sticks around Cleveland, presuming work as a fortune teller, now under the name Madame La Rose. She's always changing it. She marries one of her regular clients. Great idea. They quickly divorce. In the late 1880s, she marries for a third time to another client.

• 1:01:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Why doesn't she go, "I see you marrying a fortune teller who's sitting in front of you."

• 1:01:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. And then she just starts doing all the shoulder work.

• 1:01:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Her third husband, that's also a client, dies not long after they get married, and she inherits part of his estate. She takes up money, and she does what you or I would do. She moves to Toledo, adopting the excellent fake name Florida Blythe. And Florida continues her fortune telling work in Toledo. She forges a particularly important relationship with a client named Joseph Lamb. And later, a reporter named Abbott Kayler will write, quote, "Joseph seemed willing to do any favor that she asked. He, along with numerous other victims, would later claim that she had hypnotic powers, a popular concept at the turn of the 20th century.

• 1:02:31Karen Kilgariff?

  People believed that hypnotism was an acceptable explanation for adultery, runaway teenagers, and the increasingly common occurrence of young shop girls fleeing with strange men they met on trains," end quote.

• 1:02:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit. I wish that were true. That'd be fun.

• 1:02:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Just being able to hypnotize people. Come on this train with me. Among the favors that Elizabeth asks of Joseph are that he cashed some of her world-famous promissory notes down at the bank. And again, these look totally legit. They have signatures from Cleveland businessmen. They're printed on the nice cardstock. They're totally fake. And Joseph is able to cash them anyway. So Elizabeth ends up with this round of fake promissory notes, making around 40 grand.

• 1:03:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:03:17Karen Kilgariff?

  In today's money.

• 1:03:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna go 826.

• 1:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  1.5 million dollars.

• 1:03:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:03:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The bank quickly catches on that the notes are fake. The two are caught, but the authorities know it's Elizabeth that's behind all of this. She's convicted on forgery charges and sentenced to nine and a half years in prison. But even behind bars, Elizabeth continues to claim she's a clairvoyant. When she does a reading for the warden, she tells him that he's, A, going to lose thousands of dollars in a bad business deal, and B, he's going to die of cancer. I'm sorry I'm laughing, but I'm so sorry I'm laughing, but it's actually so daring of her to be like, "And you're gonna die of cancer." Both of those things happen.

• 1:03:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No, because of her, though?

• 1:04:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she wills them to happen. No, no, no. She just kind, like, there's people who think she actually was maybe a little clairvoyant, and that's why she went into that business. Maybe there's some truth to that. Either way, that gives her a little more credence. And she's also spending her time writing letters, lobbying for her parole, and citing her good behavior while she's been incarcerated. Somehow, her powers of persuasion secure her release in 1893, only a few years into her prison term.

• 1:04:29Georgia Hardstark?

  She hypnotizes the parole board somehow.

• 1:04:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she hypnotizes the then-Governor William McKinley, who will go on to serve as our 25th president.

• 1:04:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew that.

• 1:04:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, of course. Now she's 36 years old. She's out of prison. She's heading back to Cleveland. And she adopts the new name Cassie Hoover. She quickly finds a fourth husband. He's also a doctor. He's much older than the last one. He's recently widowed. He's very rich, and his name is Leroy Chadwick. Let's take a look. We have a picture of Dr. Leroy Chadwick.

• 1:05:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:05:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at him. He's a little sleepy.

• 1:05:05Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a little sleepy.

• 1:05:06Karen Kilgariff?

  He's so tired of his wife lying all the time.

• 1:05:08Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got her mustache on.

• 1:05:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That'd be amazing if she made herself a big, old, bushy mustache.

• 1:05:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:05:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what he loves her for. So, his friends are stunned when he shows up with a new wife, because she seems to have appeared out of midair, or thin air.

• 1:05:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Out of midair. She came in a balloon.

• 1:05:31Karen Kilgariff?

  She started up high. What?

• 1:05:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why they're...

• 1:05:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Is she clairvoyant?

• 1:05:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy.

• 1:05:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Crazy. He doesn't want to talk to his friends about how he met Cassie.

• 1:05:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, that's always a good sign.

• 1:05:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's always great, when you're like, "How'd you guys meet?"

• 1:05:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't want to discuss it.

• 1:05:48Karen Kilgariff?

  "Don't look in my envelope. Can you give me a ride to my dad's house?" He just has the explanation, the simple explanation, that she helped comfort the symptoms of his rheumatism by giving him therapeutic back massages. No big deal. No big deal.

• 1:06:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's how Vincent and I met.

• 1:06:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Just constant. Naturally, rumors spread. They met in a brothel, and that she was the madam.

• 1:06:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good for her.

• 1:06:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Cassie, AKA Elizabeth, does not give a shit, because she has just married into serious wealth. Her neighbors now include a Rockefeller, a US Senator, and other rich elites. And she now gets to spend her husband's money with abandon. So while living as Cassie, Elizabeth buys piles of clothes and jewels. She actually buys a $9,000 pipe organ.

• 1:06:39Georgia Hardstark?

  In today's... Holy shit.

• 1:06:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Today's money would be...

• 1:06:44Georgia Hardstark?

  450,000.

• 1:06:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Close, 330,000 dollars. But all of this spending comes to a breaking point. Leroy lets his wife know he will be reining in her spending.

• 1:06:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That's again, like, don't go fucking crazy.

• 1:06:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:06:57Georgia Hardstark?

  To a point where people are like, suspicious.

• 1:06:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, if it's the turn of the century, how about you get a pipe organ that's worth, like, $100?

• 1:07:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you even play the pipe organ?

• 1:07:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, what's your pipe organ obsession?

• 1:07:07Georgia Hardstark?

  What is a pipe organ?

• 1:07:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Turn it off, it's too loud. It's like, dun, dun, dun, dun. She has Dracula ambitions. Okay, so, basically, this is where the story started. It's 1902. Cassie's 40-something. She doesn't like that her spending has now been limited. She's gonna take the matters into her own hands, as she likes to do. So, she has just left the Carnegie mansion with her big envelope under her arm, getting back into her husband's friend's carriage, telling him she can't tell him anything, then telling him literally everything. And when she shows him what's in that envelope, James sees, and as a lawyer, he witnesses, seeing two promissory notes.

• 1:07:49Karen Kilgariff?

  One is for a quarter of a million dollars, which today would be worth, how many million?

• 1:07:55Georgia Hardstark?

  22 million.

• 1:07:56Karen Kilgariff?

  9.7 million. But still, basically, I'm worth $10 million here. The other is for half a million dollars, which is 19 million in today's money. And they're both signed by Andrew Carnegie. And then she also shows him more paperwork purportedly showing proof of the stocks and bonds she's been gifted by her rich father. Her stocks and bonds are valued around $5 million, which would be 194 million dollars today.

• 1:08:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. She's really going for it.

• 1:08:27Karen Kilgariff?

  She really is. I'm sorry to tell you, it's all fake.

• 1:08:30Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:08:30Karen Kilgariff?

  She forged all of it. When she knocked on the front door...

• 1:08:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, how'd she get in?

• 1:08:34Karen Kilgariff?

  She basically said, "Hello, I'm a very rich lady, and I would like to hire my own lady's maid. Can I talk to the head of your household to talk about how I could find help from my rich household?" They're like, "Come on in, ma'am." She stays in for as long as she can. She talks to the head of their housekeeping for as long as she possibly can to make it seem realistic. And then comes back outside. I would love to, there would just be like, and then she went on.

• 1:08:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut the fuck up. I got some privies to empty.

• 1:09:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I gotta just scrub down a surface. Elizabeth is betting on the fact that James will not be able to keep this juicy secret under wraps. Which is just such a brilliant... This is what I do love about scams. You're betting on the behavior that everybody exhibits.

• 1:09:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:09:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Because who among us doesn't immediately, when someone is like, "Please..."

• 1:09:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I have to tell you something.

• 1:09:25Karen Kilgariff?

  "Please don't tell anyone." Or I'm just like, "I won't, except for my sister."

• 1:09:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:09:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And then four other people.

• 1:09:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:09:31Karen Kilgariff?

  So, she's right. As soon as James gets back to Ohio, he blabs to everyone in their social circle that Cassie's real father is Andrew Carnegie, that she's the illegitimate child, she's actually loaded. The news makes its way all throughout Cleveland's most elite circles.

• 1:09:47Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like, "Remember when y'all hated me because I was up in the air, and now you fucking don't even..."

• 1:09:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember the balloon jealousy you felt toward me?

• 1:09:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and look at me now.

• 1:09:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But here's the thing. All that gossip does not reach her husband. He was traveling throughout Europe. He got sick. He's been laid up. He's just been stuck over there.

• 1:10:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's probably rude to talk about something like that, too, to someone. You know what I mean? Like, you're not supposed to talk about money. The parentage is like shameful in those days.

• 1:10:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, supposed to be shameful.

• 1:10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So you don't bring that up casually.

• 1:10:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Not to the husband. Because that's basically, you're talking about that you're judging her. And that essentially, the point of all of it is, wow, look how rich she is. So you're not supposed to be saying that stuff. So, it's the perfect setup. The rumor mill is abuzz. Elizabeth, of course, plays coy. The story is believable enough that she is able to secure massive loans from a handful of banks, just based on who they think her father is. The loans are never less than $10,000, which is almost $400,000 in today's money. And the largest is reportedly $800,000, $31 million today.

• 1:10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:10:50Karen Kilgariff?

  She went for it. That's all remarkable, considering at the time, most women could not get a bank loan by themselves at all. And she's doing it all on these cards she keeps passing everybody, with men's signatures on them. Much like the little mustachio that she got herself, she's like, "How do I use the men to make that money?" So, she's getting away with what essentially is a pre-Ponzi-Ponzi scheme. Because she pays off the last loan after she secures the next one, and of course, lives insanely extravagantly, which then convinces the people in Cleveland she is who she says she is. Her husband Leroy does not catch on. He's old and rich, and I guess sick.

• 1:11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And so Elizabeth essentially buys $98,000 worth of jewels in one go.

• 1:11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:11:41Karen Kilgariff?

  3.6 million today. So she just goes hell of shopping.

• 1:11:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Pearls that are valued at $40,000, which would be 1.4 million today, and enough clothes to fill dozens of closets.

• 1:11:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to look at it.

• 1:11:55Karen Kilgariff?

  For Christmas 1903, she gives all her friends pianos.

• 1:12:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Honey.

• 1:12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, everybody gets a piano.

• 1:12:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Everybody gets a piano.

• 1:12:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And the pianos are worth thousands of dollars.

• 1:12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's what I'm doing this year.

• 1:12:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right. And required lessons.

• 1:12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:12:21Karen Kilgariff?

  After school.

• 1:12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Everybody at Exactly Right gets a piano this year.

• 1:12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And we want to hear Hot Cross Buns by Valentine's Day.

• 1:12:27Georgia Hardstark?

  You better fucking learn to play or we're taking it back.

• 1:12:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So by 1905, everything is spiraling spiraling out of control.

• 1:12:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And when we get to free pianos and pipe organ area, it's just like there's no one's, there's no breaks.

• 1:12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Elizabeth's spending is too exorbitant. She's no longer repaying any debts. That ruins the Ponzi scheme.

• 1:12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Her lenders are drowning. Leroy finally puts two and two together. He files for divorce. Elizabeth, who is now 50 years old, flees to New York, knowing she's in too deep. When she's tracked down by police, they reportedly find a money belt around her waist holding around $100,000, which would be $3.8 million.

• 1:13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, where is she staying? Like, what hotel?

• 1:13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the Plaza or whatever. What would be there?

• 1:13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck if I know.

• 1:13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, right?

• 1:13:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's not the fucking Holiday Inn. In Chinatown, I guarantee you that.

• 1:13:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Is hired on the West Side. She is indicted on forgery and conspiracy charges for defrauding a national bank. That would be the Citizens National Bank in Oberlin, Ohio, which declares bankruptcy as a direct result of this scheme.

• 1:13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:13:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And because Oberlin is a college town.

• 1:13:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:13:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It financially devastates countless students who use that bank.

• 1:13:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that's fucked up.

• 1:13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's super fucked up. The trial is a huge sensation, of course. It's covered globally in newspapers. Andrew Carnegie himself attends the trial.

• 1:13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like, yep, that's my daughter. Oops.

• 1:14:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And he eventually gets a chance to look the promissory notes that have his, quote, "signature" on them. And he notices typos throughout the documents. And he says, quote, "If anybody had seen this paper and they really believed that I had drawn it up and signed it, I could hardly have been flattered."

• 1:14:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Ouch.

• 1:14:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So you did some shit work and everyone believed that I was going along with that.

• 1:14:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:14:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Carnegie winds up making donations to some of Elizabeth's victims, including fully reimbursing the Oberlin students who lost all their money at that bank.

• 1:14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:14:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And just for their trouble, he endows enough money to Oberlin College for the school to build a new library.

• 1:14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  What a mensch.

• 1:14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  In the end, Elizabeth Bigley is found guilty and sentenced to 10 years in prison. And immediately, her health begins to decline, which is kind of like when the magic finally goes away. It's like the churn and the excitement and everything. And then, once it's over, it's over. She basically ends up dying a year later after what's described in old reports as a, quote, "total nervous collapse," but was more likely a heart attack. She's 51 years old at the time, which kind of upset me when I heard that. Historians aren't exactly sure how much money Elizabeth Bigley defrauded from her victims and never repaid. But as Cassie Chadwick alone, it's estimated to be around $630,000, which is more than $23 million in today's money.

• 1:15:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit, I mean, go big, right?

• 1:15:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she really did.

• 1:15:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Or go back to Toledo or whatever.

• 1:15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Ontario.

• 1:15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Ontario.

• 1:15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Historians say that it's likely an even higher amount because many of her male victims probably would not want to admit that they had been scammed so intensely by a fortune teller or just a cute young 25-year-old.

• 1:15:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Or an madam.

• 1:15:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a woman at all. Today, Elizabeth remains one of the most prolific con artists in all of American history. Writer Quincy Balleas reports for Ohio History Connection that, quote, "Female fraudsters like Anna Sorekin and Elizabeth Holmes currently dominate the news, but neither perfected the art of the grift to the extent that Cassie did. She truly earned the title of the world's greatest woman swindler," end quote. And that's the story of Elizabeth Bigley, the scamming queen of Ohio.

• 1:16:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing. Wow. What was she like in person? Who would you cast as her?

• 1:16:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, for something that intense, I would do like a Holly Hunter type of person.

• 1:16:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Where you suddenly are like, wait, why am I, I can't, I'm transfixed.

• 1:16:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And unassuming, too.

• 1:16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, but like the intense pull. Holly Hunter in Raising Arizona.

• 1:16:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess.

• 1:16:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:16:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Where you're suddenly doing what she needs you to do because she needs that baby, hi?

• 1:16:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And you want to help her. Yeah.

• 1:16:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi.

• 1:16:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta have the baby. I love him so much.

• 1:16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So much.

• 1:16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 1:16:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. I mean, hey, that's our tribute to Royal Swindle. Please listen to our newest podcast.

• 1:17:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, subscribe, like, leave a review. I don't know. What are kids doing these days?

• 1:17:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Love, share. It's a Blanchard House joint. You're going to love this podcast.

• 1:17:13Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. And thank you for listening to this podcast. Do all those things to this podcast, too, if you feel like it.

• 1:17:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, we have a podcast, too.

• 1:17:20Georgia Hardstark?

  We have feelings, too.

• 1:17:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:17:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:17:35Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:17:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 1:17:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lassaveto.

• 1:17:43Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:17:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:17:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

• 1:18:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.

• 1:18:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  Two Aussie lesbian lovers touch down in 1990s London and become the toast of British high society. One of them touts an exclusive investment opportunity, and soon, the money is rolling in. Rich businessmen and England's horse-loving elite fall under their seductive spell. They even meet Queen Elizabeth. But the millionaire duo are concealing a dark past and dastardly intentions. From USG Audio, Blanchard House, and Exactly Right Media, this is Royal Swindle. New episodes drop every Thursday. Listen now on the iHeart

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:19:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:19:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the beach club at Bimini.

• 1:19:13Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:19:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:19:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:19:38Speaker 05

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