Pod Insights Murder With My Husband 315. The Random Killing of Theresa Cha About this episode On this episode, Payton and Garrett dive into the case of Theresa Cha, a celebrated writer and artist whose life was tragically cut short when she was found murdered in a New York City parking lot.
Links:
Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband
NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com
Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes
Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/
Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327
Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7
Case Sources:
Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/new-york-homicide/crime-news/security-guard-joey-sanza-killed-theresa-cha-puck-building
YaleReview.org - https://yalereview.org/article/latipa-dictee-space-grieve
EverGreenReview.com - https://evergreenreview.com/read/the-muse-introduction/
Medium.com -
https://medtolarge.medium.com/soho-writer-artist-murdered-moms-dream-led-family-to-the-crime-scene-94baa85360c3
EAI.org - https://www.eai.org/artists/theresa-hak-kyung-cha/biography
Wikipedia.org - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_Hak_Kyung_Cha
TheNation.com - https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/theresa-hak-kyung-cha-dictee-essay/
Case-Law.vlex.com - https://case-law.vlex.com/vid/people-v-sanza-887447035
CaseMine.com - https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59148d08add7b0493453c63a
New York Homicide Season 1 Episode 7 - https://www.peacocktv.com/watch/playback/vod/GMO_00000000359378_01/8aa54bfd-f1d1-3396-ac77-0224e873d8c2?paused=true
Florida Department of Law Enforcement - https://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/sops/flyer.jsf?personId=55416
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m.
0:09 Speaker 00 We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.
0:30 Speaker 01 Now streaming on Paramount Plus. I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for this. He's back. I'm older. I'm wiser. And sharper than ever. Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything. Dexter Resurrection. New season now streaming on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.
1:01 Payton Moreland? You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder with My Husband. I'm Payton Moreland.
1:08 Garrett Moreland? And I'm Garrett Moreland.
1:09 Payton Moreland? And he's the husband.
1:10 Garrett Moreland? And I'm the husband. Welcome back. Thank you for being here. Happy Monday, happy Tuesday, happy Wednesday, happy Thursday, happy Friday, depending on when you're watching.
1:18 Payton Moreland? Oh, Saturday and Sunday are out?
1:20 Garrett Moreland? They could be watching on Saturday and Sunday, but I don't know. Happy Saturday, happy Sunday. Thank you for supporting us. Thank you for listening and for watching on Netflix. We love you all. We're here. We're ready to record, ready to give you guys another case. And if you're watching on Netflix, I did buzz my head. My hair's gone. Actually, if you didn't see on Instagram, I streamed it live. Peyton buzzed my head.
1:47 Payton Moreland? Yeah.
1:48 Garrett Moreland? She did a great job. It's already grown back, but yeah.
1:52 Payton Moreland? In case you're watching or listening for the first time, this is a true crime podcast. I love true crime. My husband Garrett hates true crime. And so I come every single week and tell him a new true crime case. He has no idea what we're gonna be talking about. So he's hearing it for the first time with you. Again, I love it and he hates it.
2:15 Garrett Moreland? All my reactions are genuine. I really have no idea what case she's telling me each week. I think there's maybe been. Twice where I've heard the case before.
2:26 Payton Moreland? You must be pretty good at like, you know.
2:28 Garrett Moreland? Staying naive.
2:29 Payton Moreland? Thinking on your feet because people think you lie about that.
2:33 Garrett Moreland? Really?
2:33 Payton Moreland? Yeah.
2:34 Garrett Moreland? No, I have no, I have no idea what Kate's Peyton is telling me. I think I've also just been doing this. We've been doing it together so long. I just, I don't know, like secondhand nature at this point.
2:46 Payton Moreland? You just hit flow state?
2:48 Garrett Moreland? I'm just pure flow state. Every time Peyton's talking, I'm just listening. I'm just eating it up.
2:52 Payton Moreland? Yeah.
2:53 Garrett Moreland? Yeah. So we got, I guess I'll hop right into my 10 seconds while I buzz my head. I guess that's one thing. Honestly, it feels good. It's been getting a little warmer. It feels good and I don't have to wake up, do anything to my hair. My hairline looks good. Hair transplant worked.
3:12 Garrett Moreland? Yeah. So maybe I'll buzz it again in a bit. Maybe I'll dye it a blonde or something. I don't know what I'm going to do. Bagel shop is getting so close. Thank you to everyone who's been supporting me, who's been messaging me. Yeah. Stay tuned on social media for any announcements there. Other than that, I don't know. Do we have anything?
3:28 Payton Moreland? Oh, thanks for all the suggestions about Daisy.
3:31 Garrett Moreland? Oh, Daisy. That's what I was going to say.
3:33 Payton Moreland? No, I was just going to say so many people message us about, you know, their dogs having something similar. Or what we could do to help her or just maybe what's even going on. And so we did read them all and thank you so much. I, if you are a owner of a pet that you love very much, you know how scary it can be when you don't know what's wrong because they can't tell you. So.
3:55 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, it honestly scary. It's pretty scary. But that's what we got going. I feel like there was something else I wanted to tell you guys, but can't think of anything else. Um, we've just been working. I'm kind of waiting. I want, I'm wanting the warmer weather to come back. It's been a little colder this week. Yeah, I guess I'll end it there and we will hop into this week's case.
4:18 Payton Moreland? Our sources for this episode are oxygen.com, yell review.org, evergreen review.com, medium.com, EAI.org, thenation.com, caselaw.blex.com, casemine.com, New York homicide, season one, episode seven, and Florida Department of Law Enforcement. And low key, I've kind of been on this New York homicide show. So. Yeah, kinda good if you wanna go check it out. In every single one of these cases, no matter how young or old the victim is, there is always one question that kinda stays with me. That's what kind of impact would they have made on the world if their life had not been cut short?
5:02 Payton Moreland? And whether that's a young college student studying to be a doctor, or even a soon to be grandmother before she got to hold her first grandchild. Every tragedy leaves a hole, but today's case left me with this overwhelming feeling that the world would genuinely look different if Teresa Cha were still in it. Now Teresa was an up and coming author and artist in New York City in the 1980s. And many believed Teresa had a voice that only comes around once in a generation.
5:40 Payton Moreland? That she had the potential to go down in history next to names like Ernest Hemingway and Virginia Woolf. But instead Teresa's life was taken only days after publishing her first groundbreaking book. Her body was left in a parking lot.
6:01 Garrett Moreland? Oh my gosh.
6:02 Payton Moreland? And at first, she wasn't even identified by name, only as Jane Doe. And it was the kind of case that left everyone asking, who was Teresa Cha supposed to become? And how different would the world be now if this story that I'm about to tell you never took place? So let's now head to New York City to the Big Apple in 1982.
6:29 Garrett Moreland? Side note, big fan of New York City. Something about it I love. If it was a different life, I'd live in New York City.
6:36 Payton Moreland? Just the energy?
6:38 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, I think I love that energy. I'm kind of a workaholic and so like. Something about it just gets me, gets me pumped up.
6:46 Payton Moreland? Right. So this, New York City, 1980s, is where Teresa Hock Yunch Cha is living like most starving artists in this city. She's trying to make a name for herself, or at least she was. But in October of that year, things were finally starting to look up for Teresa. After many years of hustling and having a love-hate relationship with New York, Teresa is finally fighting her stride in the big city. She has just published her book, and she's about to prove that she has a lot of talent to share with the world. But Teresa's journey to get to this point had not been easy. In fact, the entire 31
7:30 Payton Moreland? years of her life had been one challenge after another, which is actually kind of what makes her story so incredibly moving. See, backing up, Teresa wasn't originally born in the States. She was born in Busan, South Korea in 1951, right in the midst of the Korean War. And then finally, around 1962, the family immigrated to the States with the help of the Catholic Church. And Teresa, along with her five siblings and parents, first settled in Hawaii when she was around 12, before eventually moving north to San Francisco. And Teresa had always been a bit shy, quiet, and reserved back
8:12 Payton Moreland? in Korea. But in the States, she really started to come out of her shell and thrive. Teresa not only learned English, but French as well. And through these three languages, Teresa really learned how to express herself. So after high school, she actually chose to pursue the dreams her parents never got to themselves. With her mother, an aspiring writer, and her father, an aspiring painter, Teresa fell in love with both.
8:43 Payton Moreland? And while her parents were professional teachers of their crafts, Teresa went out and actually lived them. Now Teresa's mother was incredibly supportive of those pursuits, but her father, not so much. He understood how hard it was to try and make a living through art. But nonetheless, Teresa followed her heart. And after a brief stint at the University of San Francisco, she transferred to UC Berkeley, where she studied for two bachelors and a master's degree over the years in literature and visual arts. She fell into a tight knit group of artists and poets, which was actually how she found her way to her future husband,
9:25 Payton Moreland? Richard Barnes. They met in a Berkeley drawing class. But despite living the all American life, Teresa never lost sight of where she came from. UC Berkeley was a breeding ground for many grassroots efforts. People who were trying to bring more global attention to the importance of human rights and diversity. And Teresa, as one of the few Asian American students on campus, found purpose and pride in supporting this sociopolitical change. But her preferred form of self-expression was never through protest. As you might guess, it was through
10:04 Payton Moreland? her writing and her art. Though after graduating in 1978, Teresa was finally ready for her next adventure. She wanted to move out of the Bay Area and follow many of her friends, as well as her boyfriend, Richard, who was an aspiring photographer at the time, to New York City. And it was there, in the 1980s, that Teresa felt her dreams were within reach.
10:30 Garrett Moreland? I feel like anything in that industry, like photography, videography, trying to be a producer, actor, anything in art is. Extremely difficult.
10:39 Payton Moreland? Oh, so hard.
10:40 Garrett Moreland? Who, I mean, like trying to become a famous actor, trying to become a like renowned or known producer, videographer, whatever it is, it's a grind.
10:51 Payton Moreland? Yeah, especially in somewhere as big as New York.
10:55 Garrett Moreland? City, hundred percent.
10:56 Payton Moreland? So she was surrounded by a progressive, like-minded community and Teresa felt like she could stay true to her work in New York. But life in 1980s New York wasn't exactly glamorous, especially for starving artists who were trying to find their way. The crime rate at this point was high, financial opportunities were low, and yet there were a lot of construction projects completely changing the landscape of the city, some of them under the purview of organized crime, which had a stronghold over New York at the time. Still, it was this fast and loose lifestyle that drew Teresa and Richard in.
11:37 Payton Moreland? And when Teresa arrived in New York in August of 1980, she got a job working as an editor and a writer for the Tan Am Press. And then by 1981, she began teaching a video art class at Elizabeth Sutton College while also working in the design department at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. So it's a lot of work. Again, like you said, she's grinding, but Teresa never let it slow her down and she didn't let it get in the way of her relationship with Richard either. In May of 1982, they finally tied the knot. But after two years in New York, Teresa had kind of formed this love-hate relationship with this city.
12:20 Payton Moreland? She wrote how having to sacrifice her own ethics and morals to survive in New York was, quote, "in all honesty, disgusting." Though I wonder if Teresa felt like that was starting to change or at least pay off by the fall of 1982. So by late October, after these long years in New York, Teresa was finally catching her big break. The publishing company she used to work for agreed to publish the book that Teresa had spent years working on. It was called Dictæ. It was a genre bending collection of poems and photography collages that tell the story
13:03 Payton Moreland? of different women, both fictional and real. From the Greek goddesses Persephone and Demeter, to Joan of Arc, to a Korean revolutionary named Yu Guan Sun, to Teresa's own mother, and even herself. Needless to say, the book was niche and edgy and had already received plenty of buzz, even before its publishing date. The themes focused on everything from finding a voice, to patriotism, to exile and identity. There was one later write-up I found from January of 1996 that really contextualized the book for me.
13:45 Payton Moreland? It said, quote, "The book enlarges the notion of what a book even is, because it is forming as we watch, listen, read, because it is fragile, fierce, and indelible." Now, of course, Teresa knew it would take some time, even if the book took off before she could eventually quit her day job and become an author. Though she was excited nonetheless, it was absolutely worth celebrating. So on the morning of November 5th, 1982, 31-year-old Teresa kissed her husband, Richard, goodbye at their apartment on 247 Elizabeth Street in Soho.
14:26 Payton Moreland? She went to work for what she believed would be just another day at the Metropolitan Museum of Art on the Upper East Side. Now meanwhile, Richard spent the day working on the project that he was getting paid for, photographing the renovations on the Puck Building in Lower Manhattan, just a block or two from their apartment. And the two had plans to meet up later after work when Teresa was done with her shift.
14:51 Garrett Moreland? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are plenty of reasons we put off getting support, and for a lot of people, cost is one of them. But BetterHelp insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few others worth questioning too.
15:14 Payton Moreland? Women inherit a lot of unwritten rules. Be ambitious, but not intimidating. Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself. Have it all together, but don't look like you're trying too hard. And I have definitely fallen into all of these traps. But if you have been wanting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. If you don't have insurance or don't live in the United States, you can still get 10% off your first month.
15:46 Garrett Moreland? And Peyton and I are big advocates for therapy. Give it a try. Life can be crazy. There's a lot going on. Like we were talking about, sometimes it feels like you need to have everything figured out. You don't. Go talk to someone. Go see what's going on. Visit betterhelp.com/husband to explore your payment options. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash husband.
16:07 Payton Moreland? This message is sponsored by Greenlight. You know, there were many times growing up in school where I was like, when am I ever going to use this? And let me be real honest with you. A lot of those things have turned out to be true. But you know what I wish they would have taught in school? Financial literacy. So Greenlight takes the mental load of family life and kind of puts it all into one place. It keeps your whole family in sync, money, safety, and everyday life, all in one place. When you're using it, you can see what your kids are spending. Right when they spend it, you can also easily send them money via Greenlight instead
16:50 Payton Moreland? of like digging around for cash and Greenlight just helps your household run smoother chores happen without nagging because you can do it all through the Greenlight app. There's also like a schedule that is up to date in real time. So when you're out of milk or someone needs new cleats, it just goes on this shared list that everyone can add to. Join the 6.5 million family members who trust Greenlight. Garrett has younger siblings. They've used Greenlight and it is so amazing to watch them learn about money in the safety of their home. You've got enough on your plate. Greenlight keeps it all in sync. Get started at greenlight.com/husband. That is greenlight.com/husband. Greenlight.com/husband. Go check it out now.
17:36 Payton Moreland? So she told Richard, okay, after work, I'll just come to your office at the Puck Building. She tells him, but first I do need to run an errand. So after leaving the Met around 3pm, Teresa goes to Lower Manhattan, close to the Puck Building, to meet up with a gallery owner named Kenji Fujita. Now, they spoke a bit about an upcoming show that she was having, but Kenji said she left sometime before it got dark. So sometime before 5pm, Teresa walked out of the gallery onto the New York City streets in a red beret, gloves and a leather coat, carrying a red shopping bag from the Met. And she headed in the direction
18:20 Payton Moreland? of the Puck Building, obviously ready to meet up with her husband for a celebratory drink and dinner. So this should have only been a 15 minute walk, but 5pm came and went and Richard said she never showed up. So he did wait a bit and eventually figured, okay, maybe I just missed her, maybe something came up. So he decides to head back to their apartment. Only Teresa wasn't there either. So he called a few of their friends to see if anyone had heard from or saw Teresa, but he had no luck.
18:57 Garrett Moreland? That's like.
18:59 Garrett Moreland? My worst nightmare, like just thinking your spouse or significant other or someone you love is should be home in like 10, 15 minutes and whether they got in a car crash, whether they got kidnapped, you know, this is something tragic.
19:12 Payton Moreland? It's like, okay, they're an adult. So maybe they're just talking or like, you're not sitting here going worst case scenario, but you're also nervous.
19:21 Garrett Moreland? I feel like I go worst case scenario.
19:23 Payton Moreland? I also think it's important to remember that nowadays, if something like, if plans change, we expect someone to get ahold of us right away, like a text, even a call, but
19:35 Garrett Moreland? It's a good point.
19:35 Payton Moreland? In the eighties before, like having someone on demand, their communication on demand, if you were like having to find a phone and make sure the other person was near the phone you were calling, it was probably a lot more normal to just not hear from someone and be like, yeah, I'll hear from them when I see them next. Something must've came up.
19:54 Garrett Moreland? It's such an interesting concept because obviously we have different age ranges of all over that listen to the podcast. But yeah, I guess I grew up in a time where, yeah, I mean, around high school, everyone, I mean, not everyone, people started getting phones, you know?
20:12 Garrett Moreland? And yeah, you, you just told people like, hey, I'm late. Hey, this is what's happening. And now it's just, it's what you expect.
20:19 Payton Moreland? But think like in elementary school, you make plans with your friend that day, like, let's play.
20:23 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
20:23 Payton Moreland? And then you call after school, but their parents already had plans. And so they picked them up and left the house and you're calling their phone. You're not thinking, oh my gosh, my little friend got kidnapped. You're thinking, oh, they're not home. I'll ask her tomorrow.
20:37 Garrett Moreland? It's so different. Even not having like a home phone, like we don't have a home phone, but I grew up with a home phone.
20:43 Payton Moreland? Yeah.
20:43 Garrett Moreland? Just, it's crazy. Yeah.
20:46 Payton Moreland? So I remember my number.
20:47 Garrett Moreland? I do too, actually.
20:49 Payton Moreland? Had to tell all my friends.
20:50 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
20:51 Payton Moreland? So, Richard is like, she's obviously not here. She probably got caught up. So I'm just gonna go out and get drinks and she'll probably be back later at the house. It's the eighties. There's no cell phones. It's frustrating, but this isn't enough to alarm him yet. However, when Richard got home later that night and Teresa still wasn't home, that's when he panicked.
21:15 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
21:16 Payton Moreland? Little did he know, there was a crime scene already underway, only a few blocks away from their apartment. So let me rewind the clock just a little bit, but this same day, around 7:15 PM that night, while he's getting drinks with his friends at the bar, hoping that Teresa will be home when he gets there, someone calls the police to say that they had just found the body of a woman lying in a parking lot on Elizabeth Street in Soho. Now, when investigators arrive, they see that her pants and her underwear are pulled down around her knees.
21:59 Garrett Moreland? Oh my gosh.
22:00 Payton Moreland? Her scarf and belts are wrapped around her neck and she's missing a shoe. She appears to have been beaten on the back of the head.
22:09 Garrett Moreland? Oh my.
22:10 Payton Moreland? By what they're presuming to be a baseball bat.
22:14 Garrett Moreland? Holy.
22:15 Payton Moreland? But one thing is for certain, this woman is no longer alive. So, police categorized this as a dump job, meaning somebody left the body here, but the crime appears to have taken place somewhere else.
22:31 Garrett Moreland? Okay.
22:31 Payton Moreland? And they also can't find this woman's identification. All they can tell is that she's late twenties to early thirties and she's Asian, which is why they give her the name Asian Jane Doe. But there's something else they know about her. It looks like she fought back because her hands do have some injuries, including one on her ring finger, which makes police think that jewelry had probably been stolen. And at the same time, the medical examiner is coming to some of their own conclusions. Like the fact that this Jane Doe was killed within just a few hours of her body being found.
23:15 Payton Moreland? And that while she had injuries to her head, her actual cause of death was likely strangulation.
23:22 Garrett Moreland? Oh, man.
23:23 Payton Moreland? Consistent with the scarf and belt that was found around her neck. Now, police have no idea what they are in for at this point. With no ID, they don't know if this woman is even from New York or if she's just a tourist who's visiting. They're thinking, this is gonna be a tough one to crack. We're gonna need to go through fingerprint databases, probably comb through tons of dental records, which is a daunting task in New York City and will only bring results if she lives there. Though, after a few hours, it becomes clear that police actually won't need to do any of that. Because around 2:00 AM that night, Richard Barnes arrives at the police station near his apartment and says-
24:08 Garrett Moreland? Oh my gosh, I just, that is so sickening.
24:10 Payton Moreland? To go to the police station?
24:11 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, and then they have to look at you and go, oh.
24:13 Payton Moreland? We just found a body near your apartment.
24:15 Garrett Moreland? You just found her body. Like, we found your wife's dead body.
24:19 Payton Moreland? So he shows up to the station at 2:00 AM and says, hey, I'm looking for my missing wife. Richard tells the police about his day. He's like, we were, I was supposed to meet up with Teresa at the Puck Building. We were supposed to go to dinner together, but she never showed. He thought that she had just gotten caught up at work. She couldn't get a hold of him. So he went and got some drinks with friends, but when he returned home later and she still wasn't there, well, now he is here at the police station. So they ask Richard if he remembers what his wife was wearing when she had left the house that morning. And then they actually show him a Polaroid of the body they had found that night from the crime scene.
24:59 Garrett Moreland? No, like I can't, I, I, I mean, I guess you have to identify it, but that would just be absolutely horrific.
25:07 Payton Moreland? Richard sees the Polaroid and that's when their Jane Doe is officially ID'd as Teresa. At 6:00 AM that morning, now November 6th, Richard has to make the worst phone call of his life. He dials Teresa's brother, John, and tells him, hey, your sister has been found murdered in cold blood. But just because Richard reported Teresa missing doesn't necessarily mean he's off police's radar. As we know, one of the first people police try to eliminate is a spouse or someone close to the victim. And as they dig a bit, they find that Richard and Teresa were having some ups and downs, mostly due to the financial strains of their chosen careers.
25:51 Payton Moreland? There were even a few times where they broke up completely over it, but they always made up and got back together again. They also found it a bit strange that Richard would have gone out with friends rather than just wait at home or even go to his wife's workplace to see if she was still there. But ultimately, there's really not a whole lot that stands out about Richard. For starters, things were starting to look up for the couple, again, both professionally and financially. Richard told the police how Teresa had just published her first book a few days ago, and it seemed like it was gonna be a big one. It was really gonna help her career. He doesn't have any defensive marks or wounds on his hands that would indicate that he had been in a violent struggle recently.
26:34 Payton Moreland? Plus, his account seemed to line up with what other detectives are finding. That Teresa was seen at work that afternoon and left around 3:00. And then she was confirmed to be at that gallery, meeting Kenji afterwards, before leaving sometime between 4:30 and 5:00. From there, she was on her way to the Puck Building to meet Richard and then never showed. So they're wondering, was she intercepted by someone? Did she take an unusual path? Had she been stalked? There's a lot of questions, including a new one that Richard actually brings to the detective's attention. Teresa was missing some personal items when her body was found. That day, you remember, she was wearing a red beret and gloves and carrying a red bag
27:18 Payton Moreland? from the Met, but those items weren't found at the crime scene. And then there's also the matter of the missing wedding ring. Why would a husband steal his own wife's ring if he killed her? So after a day or so, Richard wasn't looking good as a suspect in this case. And police hadn't necessarily ruled him out entirely, but they did use the tip he gave them about Teresa's missing clothing. And with that, they went looking for the site of Teresa's attack, hoping it would be nearby, hoping to find more clues. Now, police feel confident that Teresa wasn't murdered in the parking lot she was found in for two good reasons. One, there was no physical evidence, blood spatter or
28:00 Payton Moreland? signs of a scuffle anywhere in the parking lot. And two, the timing of Teresa's death had to have been sometime between 4:30 and 7:15 PM, which means a lot of people were out on the streets of New York, walking.
28:16 Garrett Moreland? I was gonna say, that seems like a time that people don't get murdered.
28:20 Payton Moreland? Right.
28:20 Garrett Moreland? It's not like it was midnight or 2 AM.
28:22 Payton Moreland? Yeah. You're in a parking lot that's, it's open. Like, it's not a closed off parking lot. Would have been really hard to pull off a murder in that busy of an area. So the next natural place for them to look is the spot that Teresa was obviously walking towards, the Puck Building, to meet her husband. Now, remember, Richard was photographing the renovations the building was undergoing at the time, which meant a lot of construction and presumably not a ton of people walking around inside the building. So a day or so later, search teams are actually dispatched to the Puck Building, along with K-9 units.
29:02 Payton Moreland? And shockingly, one of the dogs does pick up a scent in a basement area. And from there, it leads them to the pump room, where the dog starts having an even bigger reaction, exactly how it is supposed to when it's confirming a scent.
29:22 Payton Moreland? But the investigators don't find anything of note in this basement. Like, yes, this is where she was heading, but there's no evidence. Must have been a false alarm. So instead, they decide to pursue another angle. Begin looking for the missing ring that was taken from Teresa's finger. So detectives fan out all across the city, going to pawn shops and side hustlers on the street, looking for her ring, thinking whoever took it was most likely going to sell it. And it's a pretty unique piece of jewelry. It's a silver band with a black stone between two red ones.
29:57 Garrett Moreland? Okay.
29:57 Payton Moreland? It was the opposite of Richards, which had a red stone with two small black ones. It was custom made. It should be easy to spot. Plus, they actually have a photo of the ring, which should have helped too. But unfortunately, after visiting place after place, police find nothing of note. However, on Monday, November 8th, a lot of the workers who had been off for the weekends start returning to the Puck Building. And so the police show up and begin asking them questions to see, hey, did you see her? Like, did she ever actually make it to the building? Did you see anything unusual that night? Anything even around the building?
30:38 Payton Moreland? And that's when this plumber named Peter tells police.
30:43 Garrett Moreland? Peter the plumber.
30:44 Payton Moreland? I think I have something you're gonna wanna hear. And he says, it's not gonna be an easy thing for Peter to do, but it's the right thing for him to do. Because he tells police he thinks he knows who killed Teresa.
31:01 Garrett Moreland? What?
31:02 Payton Moreland? Yeah. He says it's his roommate slash brother-in-law.
31:07 Garrett Moreland? No way.
31:08 Payton Moreland? So this is what Peter the plumber tells the detectives. Look. I live in Brooklyn with my wife and her 31 year old brother. And you know, this guy's been having a hard time lately. He's been in and out of jail. So I helped him get a job here and he was recently promoted to a security guard. But he says Friday night, his brother in law came home acting really weird. His name is Joey Sansa. And when he got back to the apartment, Joey started banging on the door while the wife was in the bath, saying, hey, can I use your bath water before you drain it?
31:50 Payton Moreland? Now, this is Joey's sister Kathy, so it's a little weird to want to use anyone's bath water, let alone your own sister's. But he was kind of a strange guy to begin with. They kind of just brush it off. However, there's something else off about Joey that night, according to Peter. He's wearing a ring they had never seen before. And apparently Kathy, his sister, even said something to him about it. That, hey, that ring looks kind of feminine. And when police get the details from both Peter and his wife Kathy, they both described the ring the same way. It was a black stone with two red ones on either side.
32:29 Garrett Moreland? How does it work? And maybe you don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure one of the listeners will. And I assume I know what the answer is. Yeah, I mean, if you, if something is stolen, it turned into a pawn shop, they buy it. If the police come in before that's resold to somebody else. I'm pretty sure the pawn shop has to give it up and they just lose the money, correct?
32:48 Payton Moreland? I think so, because I think it's like crime scene evidence.
32:52 Garrett Moreland? I wonder how often that happens at like pawn shops?
32:54 Payton Moreland? Or if you like need a warrant for it.
32:56 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, I don't know.
32:58 Payton Moreland? Or if you just have to give it to police.
32:59 Garrett Moreland? I would feel like you probably have to give it to police.
33:03 Payton Moreland? I feel like most people would just give it to police because.
33:06 Garrett Moreland? Probably they're like, I don't want to.
33:08 Payton Moreland? They're like, this is was used in a murder. You're really going to be like.
33:11 Garrett Moreland? It would just suck. Imagine you pay like two grand or something for something.
33:14 Payton Moreland? And then you don't get to resell it.
33:15 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, you just don't get it. Yeah.
33:16 Payton Moreland? Maybe they buy it.
33:18 Garrett Moreland? I don't think so. It please. Yeah, here you go.
33:22 Payton Moreland? They call their boss. Hey bud, I'm gonna need you to make some room in the budget.
33:26 Garrett Moreland? It's a thousand bucks. Yeah, I think they just have to give it to you.
33:29 Payton Moreland? Okay.
33:30 Garrett Moreland? Crazy.
33:31 Payton Moreland? I used to think a camera or video doorbell was home security. And then I realized those can only record a break in. They literally can't stop one. And that is the difference with Simply Safe. When an intruder steps onto your property, Simply Safe's AI powered cameras detect the threat and alert a live US based agent who can then intervene to stop them before they even get into your door. Because it's not my house or valuables that I'm even worried about. It's a stranger getting anywhere close to the people I love. And I'm obviously taking this way more seriously now, which I already did, but now more than ever with a baby on the way. Like I said, unlike traditional security cameras, they only alert you after a break in.
34:14 Payton Moreland? Simply Safe is built to stop it before it starts and they have so many different options. If you haven't got on and checked it out, just do it, guys. If you've been waiting for a sign to get some security, this is it. Join the more than 6 million people who entrust Simply Safe with their home security. Right now, save 60% off with professional monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com/husband. That is an amazing code, guys. 60% off. That is simplysafe.com/husband. And when you order, again, just please let them know Murder With My Husband sent you. Write it in at the checkout survey. Um, it just lets them know we sent you and it helps support the show. Simply Safe, ahead of crime and in real time.
34:59 Payton Moreland? Guys, I'm not sure if I have talked about this, but I have been put on an extremely restrictive diet while being pregnant. And you know what has helped me so much? Hungry Root, I know, I know, you knew that was coming. It is so nice to be able to still shop, but get on and put in my preferences, put exactly what I'm looking. For pick out recipes that fit my dietary restrictions. I love Hungry Root. We've actually been using them since like, I think 2022 was when I first started using them. That was before they were even a sponsor of the show. Okay. If you've never checked it out, you're interested in online grocery delivery that has quality products.
35:43 Payton Moreland? I'm talking healthier alternatives. They're very transparent with what is in the ingredients. You can trust that what you're getting from Hungry Root is top notch. It completely changes the way of shopping and also for me has really helped ease my mind when it comes to this new diet. So you're gonna love Hungry Root as much as I do. For a limited time, you can get 40% off your first order plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com/husband and use code HUSBAND for that, you guys. That is hungryroot.com/husband code HUSBAND to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life.
36:24 Payton Moreland? So, um, this is what he's telling police, like, yeah, that's the same ring. This is huge for police, right? They go to the place where she was supposedly going. And a guy comes forward saying, hey, my brother-in-law is the security guard. He was acting weird and he had this ring and it ends up being the same description. So police look deeper into Joey and they find a couple other details that raise red flags. Like the fact that Joey was seen carrying around a red Met bag that Friday. Again, this is just like the one Teresa was missing when her body was found. And also that he was supposed to go to work the following day on Saturday, but he no showed. Nor did he come back to the apartment later that weekend to sleep.
37:10 Payton Moreland? But what he did do was steal about a thousand dollars worth of jewelry and belongings from his sister and brother-in-law and then took off. So obviously when Peter goes to work on Monday and detectives are there saying, hey, a girl went missing on her way here and then turned up dead in a parking lot. He's like, oh yeah. So my brother-in-law, who actually just stole from me and my wife, was here that night, was acting weird and has taken off and is basically on the run. Plus, the timeline of Joey's day that past Friday starts to kind of plug a lot of holes. Joey's boss says that around 3:00 PM that day, he gave Joey the keys to a van that was being used in the renovation project.
37:53 Payton Moreland? And he told Joey, he wanted him to help clean out the van before his shift ended. So apparently he did. And then at 5:00 PM, Joey punched out. And this is the exact same time that Teresa was heading to the building, expecting to meet her husband. But at 5:45 PM, Joey actually came back to the building and returned the keys to the manager. This was 45 minutes of Joey clocking out, but then coming back that he's not accounted for.
38:26 Garrett Moreland? It's just interesting that you don't think of that. Like, he doesn't think of that when he's about ready to commit this crime. You know what I'm saying?
38:33 Payton Moreland? Maybe he didn't know that Teresa was headed to the Puck Building. And so he didn't even think that police would ever tie her back to this building if he dumped her body somewhere.
38:42 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, maybe. That's true.
38:43 Payton Moreland? You know what I mean? The only reason police even went to the Puck Building in the first place is they knew this was her final destination. This is where she was heading.
38:50 Garrett Moreland? Maybe it was just how it happened. Yeah.
38:53 Payton Moreland? This is about 45 minutes of Joey's time that's unaccounted for. Plenty of time for him to do something. Teresa put her body in the van, take her around the corner, and then leave her in the parking lot. Oh, and even more damning, a witness said the following day, they spoke to Joey, who noticed that he had scratches and bruises on his arms. And you know what Joey told this witness? That he had gotten into a fight with an unhoused person that night before in the building, and that he hit him on the head with his nightstick and injured him badly. He said, he actually thought he killed the guy, so an ambulance was called to take him to the hospital. But when police follow up with this whole story about, you know, Joey, who's their prime suspect, how to get these scratches,
39:38 Payton Moreland? it's an entire lie. There was no ambulance dispatched to the area that night.
39:41 Garrett Moreland? Being so lie about, do you not think the police know?
39:45 Payton Moreland? Like, to make up an entire lie about almost killing someone? As your cover?
39:50 Garrett Moreland? Oh my gosh, that's an idiot.
39:52 Payton Moreland? None of this is looking good for Joey Sansa, especially the fact that he's now on the run. His brother-in-law and sister, who he lives with, are like completely turned against him. They're like, yep, he had the ring. He's a thief. Here you go. But when police look into his record, they find some terrifying details that might actually hint at a motive. Turns out Joey has an extensive rap sheet, including a series of sexual assaults from the time that he had spent living in Florida. One was a 67-year-old woman.
40:24 Garrett Moreland? Oh my gosh.
40:26 Payton Moreland? Who he sexually assaulted after breaking into her apartment randomly at 4 a.m.
40:30 Garrett Moreland? I just, I don't understand. And we, we cover so many cases like this. They have these insane, I almost said resumes, these insane rap sheets, these, this past of just criminal offense after criminal offense. And they're just walking around doing whatever they want.
40:49 Payton Moreland? Also.
40:50 Garrett Moreland? I don't understand.
40:51 Payton Moreland? I don't know where this is coming from, but like, if this sexual assault on file is that at 4 a.m.
40:59 Garrett Moreland? He broke.
41:00 Payton Moreland? He broke into a random person's house, like.
41:03 Garrett Moreland? Yes.
41:04 Payton Moreland? A random victim? That feels one tiny step away from murder to me.
41:09 Garrett Moreland? Hundred percent.
41:10 Payton Moreland? Like you don't know this person. You weren't in an opportunity with this person. There were, you went out of your way to not only break into a home, which is hard enough, but break into a home to rape someone.
41:21 Garrett Moreland? Oh man, I just.
41:23 Payton Moreland? Like that is so much, it is so close to just murdering someone.
41:29 Garrett Moreland? It's just horrible because it's like, saw that one coming, like saw this coming.
41:33 Payton Moreland? Yeah. So this 67-year-old woman, when she talks to police, she goes, the guy was actually polite and claimed that he had asked her if he could, quote, "make love to her." And then he stole a purse and two jewelry boxes from her home. And then again, this is a pattern because another victim was a 21 year old female whose apartment he broke into between 9:30 and 10:00 PM one night. She also told police that he was oddly polite, said he wanted to make love to her while he held a gun to her head. And then
42:08 Garrett Moreland? Oh my, what is happening right now?
42:10 Payton Moreland? We're still going. The third victim he attacked while she was taking out her trash in broad daylight at 1:30 PM.
42:18 Garrett Moreland? You're just, you know what? A lot of you know my stance on this and and I disagree on different things, but get him out of here. Get, get him out of here. It's just, it's ridic, it's absolutely ridiculous. If you are going to be like this in a society, why are you allowed to live in this society? Why? Oh, he's going to be reformed. Yeah, yeah, he was way reformed. Super reformed.
42:48 Payton Moreland? I don't know, like three times?
42:50 Garrett Moreland? Like, come on, how many mistakes do, like, how many times until it's like, okay, fine, they're not going to change?
42:55 Payton Moreland? And it almost
42:56 Garrett Moreland? How many chances do we need to give somebody?
42:58 Payton Moreland? It almost feels like this unsaid thing of like where we can almost use our brains and logically tell the difference between someone who could be reformed and someone who couldn't. Like, I don't know, it's like unsaid, there's no black and white, there's no boundaries, but it's almost like you can look at someone and be like, zero chance. This guy who broke into three random women and, and sexually assaulted them just randomly for fun? I don't know, that feels again, like escalation. This feels like on paper, this guy is going to escalate to murder.
43:32 Garrett Moreland? Insane. It's, it blows my mind and
43:37 Garrett Moreland? There's a lot more I can say about it, but I'm holding it in, holding it in.
43:41 Payton Moreland? Okay, so this victim, the third one that he attacked in broad daylight while she was taking her trash out.
43:46 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
43:46 Payton Moreland? He actually tried to take her wedding ring. She fought him and won. So the whole wedding ring thing, he's already done it with one or attempted to. And then as we know, this woman who he's the number one suspect in Teresa, her wedding ring was missing. So after learning about Joey's past, obviously, police are like, we have our guy. I mean, like, how do you?
44:08 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
44:09 Payton Moreland? Anyways, the only thing that's really missing at this point is the scene where the crime occurred. This is something that wasn't discovered until a month later. This was when Teresa's family came to town. So around December, Teresa's father, James, and her brother John came to New York to speak with detectives in person. And believing that Teresa probably died in the Puck Building, they actually decided they wanted to just go look around for themselves. So they go down to the basement and they're looking around when they notice that this one part of the building has a bunch of columns and they're each marked with a number, seven, 10, seven, 11, seven, 12.
44:49 Payton Moreland? Now, this strikes John as odd because he remembers something his mother said to him right after Teresa died. Again, this is all Teresa's family. Teresa's mother had said to her son, John, Teresa's brother, that Teresa had came to her in a dream and said to her mother, "I am here," and then showed her three number sevens. So like 777.
45:17 Garrett Moreland? Okay.
45:18 Payton Moreland? Obviously, the mom didn't, she didn't feel like she'd had some premonition. She was just like, what an odd thing for my daughter to have been murdered. And then I just so visually saw her in a dream and she's telling me where she is. And so when they go to this building and they see these columns, seven, 10, seven, 11, seven, 12, John is immediately like, Wait, is this weird that this is where we like we believe that she was murdered? And now there's these three sevens? It had just been something that stuck with the family, but now was just eerie to John, especially when a few moments later, John and James are walking through this
45:57 Payton Moreland? construction area and look down and literally see Teresa's red beret.
46:05 Garrett Moreland? Wow, okay.
46:05 Payton Moreland? Lying on the basement floor. There was blood caked all around it. And her missing boots and gloves were found lying not too far away. So this happened to just be one section of a room that was under construction. The police seemed to miss. So Teresa's family obviously calls the police and like, hey, did you actually search this building because we just found like the rest of her items? And after processing this new additional crime scene, you feel they have more than enough to move in on Joey because they now believe they found the room where the crime happened. Problem is they still don't know where he is, not until six months later.
46:49 Payton Moreland? Why do you think they find him six months later in Florida?
46:53 Garrett Moreland? He sexually assaulted somebody else.
46:55 Payton Moreland? He's in Florida, six months later gets caught for another sexual assault.
47:00 Garrett Moreland? Here's the thing is that I, I don't know how like much any distress, how often this happens.
47:08 Payton Moreland? Yeah.
47:09 Garrett Moreland? Like this is not some like, oh, this is just like a one off. No, this happens so much.
47:14 Payton Moreland? In a lot of the cases.
47:15 Garrett Moreland? So much.
47:17 Payton Moreland? Which is why I'm saying it's like an unsaid said thing of like
47:20 Garrett Moreland? Come on.
47:21 Payton Moreland? This type of perpetrator who, who chooses random victims to sexually assault and beat and hurt and steal from. How many times can you see the pattern before it's like, hey, this specific perpetrator has a harder time being reformed than other criminals? I mean, I'm pretty sure statistically, sexual assault is the hardest crime to reform. As far as like results of getting out of prison, it is the most reoccurred crime from a previous offender. But it's just like, oh, my gosh, this specific type of pattern we see over and over and over again, where it finally escalates to murder.
47:57 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, it's a, and I get it. I know you can't, it's, it's hard knowing something could be prevented. Granted, you could say that about anything.
48:05 Payton Moreland? Well, also you can't just look at someone and be like, we're guessing that in the future, that's so hard to.
48:11 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, I get it, but.
48:14 Payton Moreland? But also.
48:15 Garrett Moreland? Get him out of here.
48:16 Payton Moreland? You're a danger to society.
48:18 Garrett Moreland? I mean, we have a society, we have rules.
48:21 Payton Moreland? We all follow.
48:22 Garrett Moreland? So if you can't follow them, then goodbye.
48:25 Payton Moreland? So he's picked up and when the police in Florida hear that he's actually a suspect in a murder up in New York City and he's been on the run and they've been looking for him, they let the New York detectives know. And they fly down in March of 1983 with the one thing they believe might trip up Joey. And it was a picture of the ring he stole from Teresa. And the moment the police show it to him, he gets all wide eyed and he's like, he kind of like, how did you get that? Like, how do you even know about this? And then he whispers something to his attorney and they like shut down the interview. He doesn't say anything else. So police are like, just based on his reaction, he knew this ring. Like that was enough for us to know that he's our guy.
49:10 Payton Moreland? So they went back to New York to build their case. And Joey Sansa confessed to several accounts of sexual assault back in Florida. And then he was later convicted of 12 counts total.
49:24 Payton Moreland? And sentenced to prison for those crimes in Florida. And meanwhile, Teresa's case is getting ready to go to trial in New York. And in October of 1984, Joey was brought to a New York courtroom for the murder of Teresa Cha. And while he was convicted, that ruling was actually eventually thrown out by the New York Supreme Court due to, quote, inadmissible evidence. They claimed that the prosecution had defied the Molyneux Rule.
49:54 Garrett Moreland? Wait, so he's didn't get, wait. Which he's free because of what?
50:00 Payton Moreland? This rule basically says you can't show evidence of a defendant's prior crime to show their propensity for committing the one they're on trial for. And if you've seen this, we see this happen actually in a lot of-
50:14 Garrett Moreland? That is the, might be the dumbest rule I've ever heard of.
50:17 Payton Moreland? They're trying, they're trying to avoid-
50:21 Garrett Moreland? Judging somebody?
50:22 Payton Moreland? Well, someone's past, meaning that this is their present.
50:26 Garrett Moreland? I, I get it if it's like, you, you did something bad. It's not like, holy.
50:34 Payton Moreland? We see it all the time.
50:35 Garrett Moreland? I gotta gather my thoughts because that blew my mind. I did not know that was-
50:39 Payton Moreland? For instance, serial killers like Ted Bundy. He's getting charged in Florida, they won't bring up his crimes in Utah. In Florida, they won't be like, also, he, he killed all these people in Utah. That'll be like inadmissible.
50:51 Garrett Moreland? That is one of the craziest things I have ever heard.
50:54 Payton Moreland? And I don't know if that's like across the board or state to state, but I have seen this in other true crime cases where the past, like past rapes or past things aren't admissible in court for a current situation.
51:08 Garrett Moreland? I might understand that if it's like you're, you're getting a divorce or, you know, it's something that's-
51:16 Garrett Moreland? You stole a candy bar from a store. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like low level petty crimes or cases that aren't extreme. But to do it where someone's been sexually assaulted, killed, raped, kidnapped.
51:31 Payton Moreland? Are we just gonna ignore psychology?
51:33 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, the past also.
51:34 Payton Moreland? That, that, that if someone has a pattern, that is definitely a precursor. Like if there's two people sitting here and one has never committed, committed murder and the other one has sexually assaulted three women. And they're both up on trial for someone who's been sexually assaulted and murdered. Who are you gonna pick?
51:51 Garrett Moreland? Someone, I need a, I need an attorney lawyer. I need someone to explain why.
51:58 Payton Moreland? Because they're trying to avoid prejudice.
52:01 Garrett Moreland? Okay, but give me a good reason because.
52:04 Payton Moreland? Because.
52:04 Garrett Moreland? You're gonna have to give me a good reason because this is, this is crazy. I don't know if you can give me a good reason.
52:09 Payton Moreland? It actually is frustrating.
52:10 Garrett Moreland? Give me a good example. And if your examples are like petty crimes, okay, then change the law to where it's, if it's something petty or something that's not extreme, then sure, can't bring it up. But if we're dealing with killings and kidnappings, rapes, assaults, then I don't care. Bring up whatever you want. I'm bet crazy.
52:29 Payton Moreland? And like, here's the thing.
52:30 Garrett Moreland? Am I the only one mind blown right now by that?
52:32 Payton Moreland? Okay, well, say someone armed robbed.
52:36 Garrett Moreland? Armed robbery, okay.
52:38 Payton Moreland? A store, didn't hurt anyone.
52:39 Garrett Moreland? Okay.
52:40 Payton Moreland? Took the cash, got caught.
52:41 Garrett Moreland? Okay.
52:42 Payton Moreland? Years later is on trial for murder. Do you bring up that armed robbery?
52:46 Garrett Moreland? What I'm saying.
52:47 Payton Moreland? Do you?
52:49 Garrett Moreland? You should be able to, but you can, I guess.
52:51 Payton Moreland? But it's gotten us like, there's no.
52:53 Garrett Moreland? For sure. Cause in my mind, it's this, right? It's, I think everything starts small and escalates, right? With what, I mean, this happens a lot in.
53:00 Payton Moreland? Yes.
53:01 Garrett Moreland? So here's a good example is.
53:02 Payton Moreland? Common sense. That's not how the law is.
53:05 Garrett Moreland? Child sex trafficking, right? This happens a lot where it'll start with something. I say small, but something that maybe is not as.
53:16 Payton Moreland? Your perpetrator probably isn't going to its first crime.
53:21 Garrett Moreland? Correct. Then you'll do, then you'll maybe assault somebody, then maybe you've raped somebody, then maybe you've done something else. And all of a sudden you're sleeping with children, right? Like it escalates.
53:31 Payton Moreland? Raping children.
53:32 Garrett Moreland? Yeah. Yeah. Raping children. So it's like I, and that's usually how it goes for a majority of these crimes. I mean, you even look at someone like Ted Bundy. He started by.
53:41 Payton Moreland? That's not out of, that's just psych, let's just psychology.
53:45 Garrett Moreland? I just don't understand why this.
53:46 Payton Moreland? That's our humanness.
53:48 Garrett Moreland? I'm just trying to understand it. So someone clear it up for me. Someone leave it in my comments, DM me. I don't care.
53:54 Payton Moreland? Well, you already know, it's because the law.
53:56 Garrett Moreland? No, but I can't think of a good, like I, I can't think of a good reason.
54:01 Payton Moreland? Because, because we work so hard for our courts and our law to be fair. And so this is something that they say in order to be fair to every offender, we leave the past in the past usually.
54:13 Garrett Moreland? Yeah, I just don't get, I just, that's, it's not clocking. It's not clocking in my head. And I feel like I could argue with someone all day about this.
54:21 Payton Moreland? So anyways, they had testimony from Joey's sexual assault survivors in Florida.
54:27 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
54:27 Payton Moreland? Um, so there, they consider it a mistrial. So Joey's second trial was also considered a mistrial. And then finally, in his third court proceeding in 1987, there was a new witness and it was Joey's girlfriend back at the time of the murder. She said Joey had called her after the crime and said, I really screwed up and I killed someone. There was also some new evidence, like a pair of boots from Joey's apartment back then that had traces of blood that was the same type as Teresa's. And this time the verdict sticks. So even though it takes three trials to get it right. Joey is found guilty of second degree murder and sexual assault.
55:07 Garrett Moreland? Okay. So he's still found guilty. I was getting riled. I was getting.
55:10 Payton Moreland? Well, you can retry for a mistrial.
55:13 Garrett Moreland? I was about ready to fight somebody.
55:14 Payton Moreland? And honestly, the idea of a mistrial is well and good.
55:18 Garrett Moreland? Yes.
55:19 Payton Moreland? Because there are times where someone doesn't get a fair trial.
55:22 Garrett Moreland? Yeah. And.
55:23 Payton Moreland? And we should be able to.
55:24 Garrett Moreland? For sure. And I'm, I'm very much in agreeance with getting a fair trial. I think that's extremely important.
55:30 Payton Moreland? You're just arguing what's fair.
55:32 Garrett Moreland? Yes, I'm just arguing. I don't think that that makes it unfair.
55:37 Payton Moreland? After five years in and out of courtrooms, Teresa finally had the justice she deserved. Following Teresa's death, her book went out of print temporarily. Though in 1997, with education of Asian American studies becoming more popular, her book was actually brought back to print. And since then, her book has become a required reading for a lot of college courses on both Asian American and feminist studies. But there's one line I found from the book that kind of stands out. It is a metaphor of what the world lost in saying goodbye to Teresa too soon.
56:18 Payton Moreland? And it reads, quote, "The ink spills thickest before it runs dry, before it stops writing at all." And that is the case of Teresa Cha.
56:30 Garrett Moreland? Tragic. I, I mean, I think it's part of the reason I hate true crime. It's just so sad and tragic that she's living her life, going home, completely senseless crime, she dies, her family lost people, her like significant other. It just goes, the domino effect is never ending. And I hate that. I hate that.
56:52 Payton Moreland? I think it is so hard to hear about cases, true crime cases with victims who are killed at random.
57:01 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
57:02 Payton Moreland? Not that like it's any less tragic. It is, it's just harder for our brains to fathom that someone can walk up to someone they don't know and commit sexual assault and murder.
57:17 Garrett Moreland? Yeah.
57:18 Payton Moreland? It's just hard to understand. All right, you guys, that was our case for this week and we will see you next time with another one. I love it.
57:27 Garrett Moreland? And I hate it.
57:28 Payton Moreland? Goodbye.
57:36 Speaker 00 LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3am.
57:45 Speaker 00 We can help you sell, market and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.
Previous 314. The Trap She Never Saw Coming - The Murder of Bonnie Woodward Next 316. The Bizarre Stalking of Kristil Krug Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated