Do I Need Therapy? - Charlotte Fox Weber - #132

Charlotte Fox Weber is the Head of Psychotherapy at The School Of Life. Therapy is a term that comes with a lot of baggage. It's seen as a last ditch measure, a solution that is only needed by someone in a dire situation to "fix" a problem. But what even is therapy and what does it do? Should it only be used by the people who are at the end of their tether? Who is it for? And why is it so stigmatised? Extra Stuff: My Starting Therapy Video - https://youtu.be/jK-mw8rXziY The School Of Life Psychotherapy - https://www.theschooloflife.com/therapy/ Freud - On Transience - https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Freud_Transience.pdf Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom - Episodes You Might Enjoy: This Is How To Master Your Life - David Goggins - #577: ⁠⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠⁠⁠ How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs - Dr Jordan Peterson - #712: ⁠⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠⁠⁠ The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain - Dr Andrew Huberman - #700: ⁠⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠⁠ Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  When you're sitting in a room having therapy, your phone isn't there, you aren't eating, you might have a drink, but you're actually not hiding and you're really nose to nose. And there is something about being completely emotionally naked with another person where you can really confront yourself. And I think that also scares people. I think that can make therapy intimidating. Because it's easier to hide behind your phone and to be in some loud place and have lots of distraction. But when you can realize that you can actually bear it, it's kind of empowering and invigorating when you discover that actually you can confront your own mind and you're okay.

• 0:39Chris Williamson?

  I'm joined by Charlotte Fox Weber, Head of Psychotherapy at the School of Life. Charlotte, welcome to Modern Wisdom.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Hello, great to be here.

• 0:49Chris Williamson?

  It's fantastic to have you on. So I actually came down to see you in London a couple of months ago to the listeners. Sort of did a prelude to us having this sit down and we had a really cool discussion about therapy and what it is, why there's a stigma surrounding it and the process that some therapists have to go through before they get qualified. And I just thought it was really eye opening as a subject that very few people have been exposed to, I think, at least. Without all of the trappings of stigma and kind of rumor and mythology that surrounds stuff like therapy.

• 1:30Chris Williamson?

  So I thought this would be a really valuable podcast for people to listen to. And obviously you've got a great accent, so.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:40Chris Williamson?

  So.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  For anything.

• 1:42Chris Williamson?

  I know. So first off, tell us what therapy is. How do you define therapy?

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Good question. Therapy is a particular kind of conversation between two people. It can be between more than two people as well, but for one-on-one therapy, it's a particular conversation in a safe confidential space. And.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  It's really about providing a safe space where you can have this unusual encounter with another person and confront aspects of yourself and get insights about yourself and get feedback and have a deeper understanding of whatever issues you're bringing up.

• 2:25Chris Williamson?

  What's unique about that versus me just having a good conversation with someone who is knowledgeable about how the human mind works?

• 2:33Speaker 00

  I think the asymmetry is a big part of what makes therapy a different setup than anything else. It's very much about the client and therapists at the School of Life particularly work very relationally, so they will bring themselves into it, but it's still only ever going to be in your best interest. It's not, okay, enough about you, now let's talk about me. It's not a quid pro quo and I think it's that lopsidedness that makes it unusual and highly effective.

• 3:05Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, we were talking previously when I was spending time with you about the fact that a lot of conversations are kind of like a game of tennis, right? It's like you finish, now it's my turn, now I'll do my thing and then, and then I finish and then it's your turn again.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Your joke.

• 3:23Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah. And, you know, all of the trappings and trimmings that come along with that. To the people who are listening who haven't seen it already, I did a starting therapy video, which will be linked in the show notes below. And as a part of that, one of the things that I realized whilst I was reflecting on, on both Alain from the School of Life's new book, An Emotional Education, plus my conversation with yourself, one of the things that I'd realized was just how few conversations you have, which aren't just posturing or signaling or like throughout pretty much every conversation, I think it's really difficult for people to realize just how much what you're saying is meant to have

• 4:05Chris Williamson?

  some sort of an impact on the other person. Like, what does me saying this thing say about me? What does it say to them? What's their response? Oh, they laughed, they didn't laugh, or they smiled, they didn't smile, the this, the this. And it fully takes you out of yourself, right? It's not about.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  It's performative.

• 4:28Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  A lot of the times. Um, and one of the things that I I love about therapy is that it's a laboratory for testing out new ways of relating. So if you have issues with confrontation, with rejection, with fumbling, saying things you feel awkward about, nervous about, you can test it all out in a really safe space and there are no repercussions because there's a kind of guarantee that that discomfort can be tolerated, that awkwardness can be tolerated. One of the things I I also am fond of is that you don't have to have the usual social etiquette. I don't know if you ever ask your therapist how he or she is, but

• 5:09Speaker 00

  you certainly don't have to. You can you can start right in. You can begin by describing a twig you found on the street. You can describe an egregious encounter you had with a colleague. You can just say what comes to mind, and that's an incredible privilege to not have to go through the platitudes of normal chit chat.

• 5:27Chris Williamson?

  Totally right. It's um, i- i- it is a very unique unique uh, opportunity for people to to um, speak in that sort of a way and not have to fulfill that daily, the the daily sort of normalcy, I suppose. Um, so can you give us a little bit of a a background, the foundations of of therapy and also the particular type of of therapy that you specialize in at the School of Life?

• 5:52Speaker 00

  Sure. So we are quite fond of the influences of Freud, although we are not strictly Freudian, but it does begin with Freud, starting with the fifty minute hour, which is that sessions take place for fifty minutes and it's called the fifty minute hour. Um, it's an unusual setup and and term in a way. And it's about two people facing each other. We don't do psychoanalysis where you lie on the couch. It's it's very much a visual face-to-face process. We adore Winnicott at the School of Life. I'm just I'm just dropping some names and

• 6:30Chris Williamson?

  Cool.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  theories.

• 6:31Chris Williamson?

  Tell us about them. We want to know about them.

• 6:33Speaker 00

  Okay, so I'll throw some terminology at you. I would say we work in a way that is psychodynamically informed. And appreciates attachment theory and also incorporates existential humanism. So there's some jargon.

• 6:48Chris Williamson?

  There's some jargon for us. Why don't we learn a little bit about that jargon? What does that mean?

• 6:53Speaker 00

  What it means is that we really appreciate the intellectual underpinnings of psychoanalysis. It has incredible rigor, insight, depth.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  However, we feel that it's much more valuable to be relational and real and personable when you're in the room with another person. So we don't do the blank slate thing. We actually are quite friendly. We're human, we're warm. And that's where humanism comes in and existentialism because we relate in the here and now. It's not all about interpretation. We also will just be quite kind of instinctual and immediate in giving feedback. And of course, when I say we, we're a team of twenty-two therapists and we all have our own personalities and idiosyncrasies. So I can't guarantee that we're all going to be clones of each other and nor would you necessarily want that. It'll be somewhat bespoke, person to person.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  But we're quite united in having a shared ethos. And I think that that sets us apart from going to other services where you don't really know what it is that you're getting. And we're incredibly fond of Alain de Batton's philosophy and he's often chatting with us and vice versa. So there's a kind of joined up thinking that I think also goes outside of psychotherapy. So we love psychotherapy, we love all of the theories, but we also love other aspects of culture and aren't afraid to bring that into the work.

• 8:21Chris Williamson?

  How would you define Alain's approach to psychotherapy and I guess emotional wellbeing on a broader scale?

• 8:31Speaker 00

  So he is very fond of Romantic realism. It's his concept. He takes

• 8:40Speaker 00

  Quite a kind of healthy pessimistic approach to human nature. And I feel like you already know this part and probably relate to it. Tell me your thoughts.

• 8:50Chris Williamson?

  Hey, I think that a healthy relationship to realistic pessimism is a is is. Yeah, yeah, it's it's a very good way to describe it.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, we don't like to be overly upbeat and kind of jolly people along because we don't think that helps. And being relentlessly positive can actually be quite oppressive and depressing. So we prefer to be kind of cynical and then there's a bit of encouragement and hopefulness that comes through. And I think I think that philosophy definitely comes through in our approach to therapy. We we're not deterministic. We think that people can recover. We have quite a quite a kind of encouraging outlook when it comes to trauma. We prefer things like post-traumatic growth rather than post-traumatic stress.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  Of course, there is post-traumatic stress, but we love the idea that people can overcome unbelievable difficulty and adversity. So there is a kind of hopefulness despite all of the pessimism and if we can manage expectations. Alain is very big about expectations, careful not to overly expect too much, not to idealize, to be aware of some of the trappings of of fantasy.

• 10:07Chris Williamson?

  One of the things that I often think when I read a lot of Alain's work is he's incredibly um very transparent, very accepting of human failings, very compassionate towards the things that all of us do. And I I think that it's a incredibly unique approach. I wonder how many people haven't heard a voice like that before. And and I guess the role of a therapist is to kind of be that voice that no one else is to to an extent.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  Sure. And and actually, that's where humanism comes into our work as well. We really like empathy. Which is such a kind of obvious statement, but something that can really be missing in a lot of relationships, in couples, especially where empathy just can go out the window. It's one of those qualities that we're taught about a little bit at school. And then we forget. I don't know if you were ever taught about empathy growing up.

• 11:06Chris Williamson?

  No, I'm from T side, so we uh, we weren't, we weren't taught much about that.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Well, I was taught about it only indirectly. When I think about it, it was, it was through books. It was books like Catcher in the Rye, where Holden Caulfield has a great deal of empathy and thinks about the ducks and what they'll do during the winter. And you learn about it through characters, not necessarily directly. But it's a quality that, again, I think should inform therapy a great deal. And that doesn't mean empathy without challenge, but, but really understanding someone else's struggle. And I think, I think that's a big value of psychotherapy, feeling that someone can actually understand and think about what you're going through.

• 11:52Chris Williamson?

  So moving on to some of the preconceptions about therapy, I think this is a really interesting topic, the fact that it is, I suppose, the, somewhere in between meditation and, and therapy would be the equivalent of the gym for the mind. And as Sam Harris puts it, he says that there are no norms surrounding mental training in the same way that there are surrounding physical training. However, if you were to roll the clock back a hundred years, the only person that was doing any serious form of physical training was the guy in the circus with a handlebar moustache and a leopard print singlet.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  Stunning.

• 12:30Chris Williamson?

  And whereas now, you know, you, you, it's almost, you're almost a freak if you don't have some sort of exercise routine. But there's no norms around, or at least I don't think that there is. Still, there's so much woo attached to meditation, there's so much stigma attached to therapy. I wondered what your thoughts were on that.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  My thoughts are that. It's a shame that people often only come to therapy when they're in real trouble. Of course, do come to therapy when you're in real trouble, but also come when you're well. So you might go to the gym when you're already in great shape because you wanna maintain that and you also might wanna refine yourself and do even better and feel even better. And the same goes for therapy that you you can be living a good life, but you might be able to make it even better. And it shouldn't just be for the very distressed people. Again, it should also be for the very distressed people, but it it shouldn't be exclusive to that. So I think there's a myth that you have to be sick in order to get help.

• 13:36Chris Williamson?

  Thing that I think about when I talk about sobriety, so I'm a big sobriety advocate despite also being a club promoter and um the the the fact that people are only they only consider themselves to be able to go sober if they have some sort of dependency.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:51Chris Williamson?

  In the same way as people only go to therapy when they've got something wrong.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  I love that. And I love that you can be an advocate for sobriety without having to be a recovering addict.

• 14:01Chris Williamson?

  That's the same as therapy, right? It it is. And the the gym analogies can absolutely perfect that not only fat people that have some sort of real, real problem go to the gym. It it, you know, there's more fit people in the gym than there are. If you look at how it skews, it skews towards people that are in shape rather than out of shape.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

• 14:24Chris Williamson?

  And I wonder, I wonder what therapy needs to do to to break that.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  To have a makeover so that it it just doesn't feel that way, so that healthy people feel encouraged to work on themselves emotionally.

• 14:40Chris Williamson?

  I think one of the one of the issues with doing any kind of internal work slash um self reflective stuff is that the fruits of your labor are not immediately visible to all around you, which inherently has like a marketing branding implication, you know.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I can't do. So I've meditated consistently for the last three years, but there's no like mental six pack that I'm rocking.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  I know, I know. I mean, I, that's the thing. It's very subtle how shifts take place in therapy as well. So someone might say, actually, I'm realizing that I'm a lot more comfortable with myself. I mean, of course, I'll keep confidentiality and I'm I'm. I'm making sure everything I say here is anonymous, but I I've had clients describe certain social encounters where they now feel more at ease in their own skin. You see a colleague who used to kind of trigger you and make you doubt yourself and suddenly you feel more robust, you have a bit more ego strength. It it's subtle, invisible shifts like that, where it it's quite transformative and hugely powerful in your sense of self, but it's so internal.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  So the world isn't gonna see that, oh, my God, you look amazing. I mean, when you go to the gym, people might say, you're in such great shape. What have you been working out? No one's gonna say, have you been in therapy? Because you seem a lot more secure. They should. We should start saying things like that.

• 16:09Chris Williamson?

  That would be nice. I I I totally get what you mean as well, the fact that there isn't this this outward display of the way that you look. And as well, when these changes are subtle, when they are as very fine, uh uh uh as you identify, there's no like bench press, personal best for for mood. And uh uh and because of that, it's incredibly difficult to work out where the discreet, quantifiable markers of progress have been struck. There's few few people that are measuring their mood accurately, like without all of the biases that were lumbering with us.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Sure. But my God, those those changes are quite remarkable. So I I saw a friend the other evening for dinner. I went for dinner with a friend and her husband. The husband used to have kind of level one conversations with me. I would ask him how his life was, how's work, how's your family? And we would kind of stay at that surface level. And I've referred him for therapy about six months ago, and I really noticed the change. I I didn't say it to him in that moment because I actually thought that might make him uncomfortable. But we we spoke about things with such depth and candor, and he was so accessible and

• 17:33Speaker 00

  open and he allowed himself to be surprised. He it wasn't a kind of scripted conversation. It was really delightful. I could see the difference. I kind of wish I could capture that in some way because it's just what you're talking about. But he's opened up and he's opened up to himself. He was clearly more at ease in in discussing difficulties. And the conversation was much more energetic. I mean, actually, when you stay at the surface level, it's it's quite tedious sometimes. You you bore yourself, you bore the other person, you're just kind of staying in safe territory. And and we went so much further into such interesting terrain.

• 18:16Chris Williamson?

  It's interesting that that people yearn, almost all of us yearn for really interesting conversations, right? Like, it's the selfish reason why I do this podcast. It's also the reason why I think the media medium itself of podcasting is successful because people are lacking in that particular sort of nourishment. They go to they go to Joe Rogan because he is a really, really good conversationalist. And they get to listen to someone that they think, fuck, I I want them as a best friend. But, you know, to fly the flag for why I think it's a good idea, and the listeners will know what I'm about to say. If you're not having a conversation with someone for between thirty minutes and an hour, once per week at least, where your phones aren't in the room and you're fully

• 19:02Chris Williamson?

  uh in the in the moment about whatever it is that you're talking about, trying to really, really delve and deconstruct exactly what it is that you're on about. And this can be anything. This can be sport. This can be whatever, you know, pick your passion. This can be painting, poetry, fucking the weather, whatever it is that you want to talk about, political climate. But if you're not doing that, you are i- i- in my view, you're lacking in the same way as if you only had one type of vegetables or if you only had one type of meat.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  I like it. I like what you're saying.

• 19:30Chris Williamson?

  Good.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, I think there is something you've just mentioned that's really important to acknowledge as well, which is the lack of distraction. So when you're sitting in a room having therapy, as you say, your phone isn't there. Well, I mean, you should put your phone on silent and put it away. You aren't eating, you might have a drink, but you're actually not hiding and you're really nose to nose. And one of the things that happens, making a huge generalization here, men in particular tend still to have more side by side conversations. If you're watching a sports game, if you're, if you're at a bar. I mean, it, the world is changing, so men do have eye to eye conversations and they go for dinner.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  And they do more of that, but even then there are a lot of distractions. And there's something about being completely kind of emotionally naked with another person where you can really confront yourself. And I think that also scares people. I think that can make therapy intimidating. Because it's easier to hide behind your phone and to be in some loud place and have lots of distraction. But when you can realize that you can actually bear it, it, it's kind of empowering. And invigorating when you discover that actually you can confront your own mind and you're okay.

• 20:52Chris Williamson?

  That's the fear, isn't it? The fear that people have is I will distract myself. I will nerf the harsh edges of reality. So that I don't need to feel feelings like feeling, feeling feelings is hard. Like it really, it really does suck. Um, so.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Not feeling them comes at a greater cost.

• 21:12Chris Williamson?

  It's a great way to put it. Um, so we've touched on it there about the fact that therapy might be a um, an intimidating process. So why don't you, why don't you talk us through what, what happened? So I'm a, I'm a client. I'm coming in to sit down. What do we, what are we doing? Am I, you said, I'm not lying on the couch staring at the ceiling with my eyes closed. That's, what's that? Which one's that?

• 21:31Speaker 00

  That's psychoanalysis.

• 21:33Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  And nor are you getting prescription medication, which would be psychiatry.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  So psychotherapy is, I'm just gonna add one more distinction. It's different from counseling. Counseling is usually shorter term and counselors have fewer years of training. Psychotherapists have all had their own psychotherapy. Let's start with that. Again, that comes from Freud, who felt that every psychoanalyst needed to have been analyzed. So in a way, we are practicing, we're preaching what we have practiced. We're not complete hypocrites. When you see a psychotherapist, you know that person has been on the other side, which I think is a great leveler. And it's very different from other, from other medical professions where you do not know

• 22:23Speaker 00

  that your psychiatrist has taken every medication he's prescribing you. Maybe he has.

• 22:29Speaker 00

  But it's very much kind of person to person. It's, it's more, it's more egalitarian in that way.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  Rather than just patient to expert. Although, again, you are going to someone where you can trust that they, he or she will be seasoned and have some idea what they're doing. So what happens in your first session? A therapist will ask you questions in the first session. It's information gathering. So in the assessment, there will be a kind of exploration of your personal history. What brings you to therapy? What your childhood was like? We do look at the past at the School of Life, but really only for the sake of helping you get where you want to be going. So we don't just take you to the past and leave you there. Which I think is one major fear of psychotherapy and, and something that's historically been a great problem.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  That you will sit there and you will just moan about something that happened when you were 10 years old and then you'll be left in a pool of tears and that's it. What was the point of that? We're not gonna do that. You may, you may remember something from when you were 10 years old and it could be really useful for figuring out its impact on you now and why it's blocking you from doing something you want to be doing in your present life. So we're very much focused on where you want to be going. And I think the future comes into the work. Your goals come into the work a great deal. It's not just some kind of misery fest. But it is a space where anything is acceptable. And I think radical acceptance is a is a key property of good therapy.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  That you discover that you can be radically accepted by another human being. You could say obscene things. You could describe some outrageous fantasy you have. We are adamant about distinguishing fantasy from reality. So let's say you want to murder someone. We really understand the difference between wanting to murder someone and going out and doing it. And discovering that you can explore those those dark, shadowy parts of your mind is is it's quite exhilarating, I think. And actually quite reassuring because you discover, actually, I'm I'm not going to go and murder this person. I don't even fully want to murder this person, but I can get in touch with that part of myself and it's okay.

• 24:47Chris Williamson?

  Interesting to think about how so few of the conversations that we have are free from that trapping, right? Free from the, I have to be careful of what I say because first off confidentiality is a concern. I'm talking to Johnny, but I know that Johnny knows Rob and I'm talking bad about Rob. And if if Johnny tells Rob, I'm going to be in shit. So I'd better essentially not even think the things I'm thinking. And one of the things that I realized upon, and I know that I was like 20 years too late,

• 25:30Chris Williamson?

  but upon reading 1984 last year for the first time, which if if anyone has a read that they need to go through, this one like a fairly easy fiction book, highly, highly recommended, super, super like worth, absolutely worth all of the accolades it's got. And one of the things that I realized there was If you are unable to articulate a thought, it is precisely the same as you not having the thought i- in terms of um real world usability. Because if you don't have the words to say the things that are in your head and they they never first off, they never leave your head, but they also stay within your head as this

• 26:11Chris Williamson?

  very cloudy, very nebulous, very ephemeral kind of wishy washy sand in your hands type like trying to hold on to it situation. And I found it incredibly fascinating to reflect on the fact that your ability to articulate the things that are in your head is directly proportional to your ability to feel the things that are in your head.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  That's so interesting and such a good point. Uh, one of the things that can happen in therapy is that you you dare to narrate your life in a different way. So you might you might discover that actually you have a you have a deep ambition to do something professionally, but you haven't really had a space to test it out. You think you might be stupid and clumsy. You don't know that you have any idea what you're talking about and you need, again, that safe space where you can you can try something out and see where you go with it. So one of the analogies that I really like is Paul Clay, the Bauhaus artist, talked about taking a line for a walk. And that was how he came up with a lot of his drawings.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  And I think conversationally, you can do the equivalent in psychotherapy where you take a line for a walk. You don't have to know where you will end up, but you may discover something really exciting about yourself and it it's sort of telling the story of who you are. So back to your point about nineteen eighty four, and if you don't have the words, then then you don't really have the thought. If you've never been able to have certain conversations about yourself, if you've never really been able to tell the story of who you are, then then it's going to be nebulous and and possibly out of reach and not as available to you. So therapy can make ideas more available to you and people can feel incredibly motivated,

• 28:04Speaker 00

  crystallized, energized, a a lot can become possible. And and that can take shape in realizing what you want in a relationship, realizing what you want in a career. Out of life.

• 28:19Chris Williamson?

  There's very few conversations, I think, that people have where they are

• 28:25Chris Williamson?

  completely able to say whatever it is that they want. And it it kind of brings in all of the different elements of what we've spoken about. So talking about the confidentiality concern, the signaling concern, the reputational concern.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:39Chris Williamson?

  You know, what is even less than that, just the embarrassment of having to utter particular words to someone. Getting over that itself is a real challenge.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  Sure. And also, is it okay for me to be on such poor form with this person? Well, when you're with a therapist, you can be on whatever form you want to be in. And and if you feel self-conscious and you think I'm just being so miserable, is this horrible to be around? You can say it. Again, my biggest advice is to speak up with radical honesty. So say, if you're feeling a certain way, say if you're bothered by your therapist, say if you're deeply moved by something your therapist has said, but speak up, do not hold back.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  I it always kind of makes me sad when people say, oh, I really felt misunderstood by my therapist, but I didn't say anything. I say something.

• 29:35Chris Williamson?

  People are so they're so used to being polite to to not hurting someone else's feelings. So for the listeners who don't know, I'm currently undergoing some sessions myself. I I found it fascinating, the discussion about why we should have therapy. And I've it's been a really interesting experience so far. But one of the things that's continually identified is

• 30:03Chris Williamson?

  basically an offering, this really odd offering of the therapist, asking, does that annoy you? Or has anything that I've said irritated you? It's like

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Listening feedback in such an unusual way.

• 30:15Chris Williamson?

  The only people who say, does that annoy you in the past, in my life, has been someone passive aggressively kind wanting you to say yes, so that you can spark off some sort of, or maybe doing it as like a low key put down.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 30:35Chris Williamson?

  To to hear that sentence, to hear, does that annoy you? Or does that irritate you? When it when it doesn't, especially when it doesn't as well, it's like.

• 30:45Chris Williamson?

  I needed new programming to work out.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Because I wonder if in your case, the therapist was picking up on something for how you come across and if that's useful for you to understand. Did you seem like you were annoyed?

• 31:01Chris Williamson?

  I'm not sure. I definitely have resting bitch face, which might not, might not help.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  But good feedback to have. Good to know that that's how you come across.

• 31:12Chris Williamson?

  I knew, I've known I've had resting bitch face for a long time. But yeah, no, you are, you are right. Um, so you mentioned earlier on about some of the fears that people have when they go in, they're going to be left in this sort of wallowing pit of bad memories and history and stuff. How do you, what, what are the processes that you can go through to kind of keep the momentum going so that people aren't left there?

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Um, I think, I think it's really about identifying what you want to achieve out of therapy and doing an inventory is very important. Um, I do want to go back, may I go back to something you just said about your therapy experience, if I may. There can be incredible moments of meeting where you feel ecstatically understood by your therapist. And there can also be moments of misattunement and disconnect. And I think those are equally valuable because it's the discovery and acceptance that you cannot be entirely understood at every moment by another human being or even by yourself. And that has to be tolerated. So sometimes we go around assuming that everyone understands our intention and that we understand what someone

• 32:24Speaker 00

  else thinks. So you think that colleague snubbed me, she must hate me. And actually, you just have no idea what's going on for her. So if your therapist is saying, did that irritate you? And it genuinely didn't? I think that's really interesting for considering that, that sometimes we need to unpack things and, and we don't immediately understand. And, and that's okay. But it explains a lot. It explains why things can be complicated and go wrong interpersonally, why we, why we feel offended, why we may offend inadvertently, all of those things.

• 33:00Chris Williamson?

  The social situation's incredibly messy.

• 33:03Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 33:03Chris Williamson?

  And, you know, it.

• 33:07Chris Williamson?

  Although we all have to sort of operate within that world, the world of other people, it does, it does amaze me sometimes that fewer problems occur because there's so many different interplaying pulls on our desires and our fears and our sadness and our vengefulness and bitterness and resentment and, you know, all of those different things that occur. And when you've got, let's say you work in an office that's got a hundred people there.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 33:36Chris Williamson?

  It, it absolutely blows my mind on a daily basis that there aren't just outright fights or miniature civil wars. You know, we've got this stupid 200,000 year old programming. And then, you know, I've just been thrust into this world that's existed for like a couple of hundred years with hyper connectivity. And now everyone's expected to be fucking civil. Everyone's expected to not kill their neighbour because the dog barks or, you know, the, the equivalent of someone taking some of your land or, you know, doing something that destroyed your quality of life or whatever it might be. And then we, you know, you stop

• 34:18Chris Williamson?

  marrying the person that lives in the county next to you because it allows your families to adjoin in power and all the, you know, there's, everything is changing so, so quickly. And the fact that we aren't just constantly ripping each other's heads off or sat in a pool of our own tears and feces in the corner of the room is.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  We're quite civilized.

• 34:39Chris Williamson?

  Almost.

• 34:41Speaker 00

  There's a lot of restraint.

• 34:44Chris Williamson?

  There is. And I think that probably some of that restraint, some of that over civility, it is one of the causes that manifest, that manifest these problems, right? It is.

• 34:58Chris Williamson?

  People realise just how much they've had to not say for a very long time.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  Completely. And Freud actually argued that we need repression for civilisation. And civilisation and its discontents, he describes the need for it because otherwise we would just be sitting in our faeces and obsessing over death. And those would be the two main things and killing each other. So a little bit of repression is essential for functionality. But I think it goes well with acknowledgement and awareness. So if you have that designated space for radical honesty, then you can also contain yourself and manage yourself, I think, in a much more productive, useful way in the rest of your life. It doesn't have to spill out.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  I think when people are un-therapised, there can be a lot of spillage.

• 35:52Chris Williamson?

  That's a question that I wanted to ask. How do you ensure that you don't start opening up in psychotherapy and spend a bit of time revealing your inner workings to this person? And then you step outside of the therapy room and you're now this big glass box who's transparent to everyone and you're telling them all about your rampant erectile dysfunction and how you've got incontinence again at like forty-one and blah, blah.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Well, I think it really helps to know the therapeutic frame. That, again, it's that fifty-minute hour that is yours and it's all about context. It is a safe space. That doesn't mean that you leave and everything in the world is a safe space. And I think knowing the line of demarcation is incredibly important. And again, I actually think it can contain and manage kind of self-regulation in a very helpful way. So, yes, you might feel a bit vulnerable if you've had a particularly intense, grueling session. Be aware of that and maybe go for a walk after because you may have unpacked a lot.

• 37:01Speaker 00

  And it's a lot to then go back into the real world and have to kind of have chit-chat with people and get on with things. Sometimes clients schedule sessions at certain times of day for that reason, actually. They prefer to do it after work rather than before work. Other people are okay, but I think it's about knowing yourself and being self-aware enough to recognize the impact. So I also think it goes both ways, by the way, for therapists. I know for me, when I've had a lot of sessions, I I need to go for a walk. I I don't want to immediately start chit-chatting with people or or rush home. I need to have that space to process and let things can percolate.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  So I it does go both ways. I'm revealing the other side of things. Um, but I think I think that containment is a big thing. So it doesn't mean that you're just gonna be a complete mess if you go to therapy and freak out to everyone you know.

• 38:00Chris Williamson?

  That's a fear that people have, right? They they think that it is going to turn them into some overly emotional puddle that that can kind of just be swept around on the floor. Um, I'm gonna be doing a podcast next year with one of my buddies, Andrew. And he has some criticisms, he has some unique criticisms about how he sees. I think he would probably call it the weakening of men, uh, is how he would refer to it. Um, and me and him stand on opposite sides with this particular debate civilly, uh, I'll have to say. Um, but yeah, he he, one of his concerns is that there's this, um,

• 38:41Chris Williamson?

  there's typical masculine traits where men should be not acknowledging their vulnerabilities, not acknowledging their weaknesses, because this is, this is, um, not the way that a man should be. It's not the role that he's supposed to have within society for himself, for other people, et cetera. And that's a fear, you know, whether it's low-key or or explicitly stated. I certainly think that, you know, emotional vulnerability is something which is not. Wildly praised in modern society, especially specifically for men. Um. So yeah, that I can appreciate. I imagine that that's a fear that you come up against.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Um. And I think therapy can make life richer. It doesn't always make it simpler. That is true. So I don't want to be overly defensive about it because it can make things more exposed. I I had one client who said it was it was like wearing glasses for the first time. He described how when he finally got glasses, he he saw how dirty the world was. There's actually grime and filth everywhere that he'd never been aware of because he'd seen things in a blurry way. And therapy did the same thing. He could suddenly see that there was a lot of filth and it was hard for him. But the difficulty of seeing that filth was still worthwhile in his case anyway.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Uh, because it because it added richness and texture and yes, complexity. But he was seeing things in a sharper way. So I I guess it's always about measuring what it is that you want. I I also think that therapy can be very bolstering because you discover that vulnerability can actually be a strength. You discover that it can be a part of you, but it doesn't have to own you. So back to that fear that you're going to just be an emotional puddle. I think discovering that you can talk about unbelievable hardship. And then you can go out into the world and you can handle it is is quite something.

• 40:38Chris Williamson?

  It's the way that people make their progress in the gym, right? It's progressive overload is king in all areas. You gradually.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:45Chris Williamson?

  Expand that domain of competence over time and you increasingly bear a heavier and heavier load. Um, I I, you know, from my particular perspective, I have to agree. I think one of the most endearing things that any person can do is to be vulnerable.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:05Chris Williamson?

  Like your friends, I think it's in an emotional education, the book. When someone tells you something which could be socially catastrophic in the wrong hands, but gives you the faith that it is yours and and puts their trust in you. And also opens up and says, look, this is truly, honestly, openly me. You know, there's few things that are as endearing as that.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  Sure. Sure, it's it's incredible when someone opens up to you and it feels like a privilege.

• 41:38Chris Williamson?

  Do you find it difficult and do many therapists find it difficult to not become emotionally invested in their clients?

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Um, I don't think we have to not be invested. I think we can care about our clients. In fact, I think conspicuously caring can go a long way. Sometimes I I agree with Forenzi, who was who was an acolyte of Freud's, although he then acted out and was very badly behaved. So he made a lot of mistakes. But one of the things he said was it's the love of the physician that heals. I think that allowing for affection and care and concern is very important. And I actually think if you go to a therapist and you don't feel any rapport and you feel like that therapist doesn't care one bit about you, that's a huge problem. And at least something that should be explored.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Again, maybe it's your insecurity, maybe maybe it's something about the therapist not conveying the concern, but test it. I work it out.

• 42:37Chris Williamson?

  How about from your perspective as a therapist? Is it challenging to not take your work home with you? You you you find someone that you like, a client that is particularly likeable or or you have a, you know, the equivalent, the therapist's equivalent of a soft spot for. Is it difficult to not, you know, they tell you this really harrowing harrowing story or the, you know, incredibly, whatever it might be, like, how how do you not let that bleed between the different sessions?

• 43:04Speaker 00

  I think we're allowed to care and yes, there can be compassion fatigue and we need support. For that reason, we have supervision. Every therapist has supervision, which is a safe space where you discuss your caseload. Um, we are also very close as a team at the School of Life, so having conversations. I we're we're always incredibly discreet and and we keep confidentiality completely. But I I think having conversations with other professionals where you're kind of all in it together can be very supportive and self-care matters hugely in this profession. To answer your question, sometimes things do stay with you. I don't see that necessarily as being deeply problematic.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  I would rather be affected by my work than indifferent.

• 43:53Chris Williamson?

  It's a big sacrifice to make, I suppose, in in some regards.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  Yes, and it's also such a privilege. I to get to have interesting conversations and and understand the inner workings of someone else's mind. It's incredible.

• 44:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it is. It is. So one thing that I've been considering throughout the the conversation, we've highlighted the difference between psychotherapy and psychoanalysis and psychiatry and counselling.

• 44:29Chris Williamson?

  Where would coaching of some kind, where's the line drawn with with with someone who gives advice?

• 44:36Speaker 00

  Coaching is much more directive. And it can mean many things. So I don't want to overly elaborate. When this is not my area of expertise, except that it doesn't necessarily unpack and and look at the source of all difficulties as much. But again, I can imagine coaches arguing. There can be lots of debates about the difference between coaching and therapy. I can really only speak for therapy. I don't want to offend.

• 45:06Chris Williamson?

  We've offended lots of people already. That's fine. People get offended at everything. Yeah, the the coaching thing for me, one of the one of the interesting lines that I'd seen that's been drawn is during sessions of therapy, there isn't that you write that that directiveness that advisory, here is a strategy that I think takes into account the inputs and is a potential new output for you. Like that, that doesn't appear to really have a a place in psychotherapy. It's more about working through the things you have to then allow whatever movement that you go forward with to be less, to be more unencumbered, I suppose.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I think that's really well said. Where did you get that idea?

• 45:51Chris Williamson?

  I I I don't. I've got this really cool friend at the School of Life and she's she's we went for this conversation a couple of months ago, so.

• 46:00Chris Williamson?

  But yeah, so have you got any, we're coming towards the end now. Have you got any?

• 46:08Chris Williamson?

  Studies or any revelations that you've come across in your work, which you think is particularly interesting. So we spoke about the the fifty minute hour. I wanted to ask about why that was why that was the case. Is it simply an operative thing that the therapist requires ten minutes to go and

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Some of it is that, yes.

• 46:30Chris Williamson?

  Have a wee and a drink of water.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  But it also seems to have a natural rhythm. It is a good amount of time. It works well. It works well for giving you enough space without just going on too long. I think the boundaries of therapy are so key. So knowing that there's a start finish. That's the other thing. Back to your question about what distinguishes it from other types of conversations. You know the start time, you know the finish time. So as scary as it may seem, you know exactly what you're in for. There there are lines. And sometimes I think a big part of social anxiety is not knowing what you're in for. So you're at a house party and someone stops you when you're on your way to the bathroom. And how long are you going to stand in the hallway? Having awkward chit chat with this person?

• 47:17Speaker 00

  If you're sitting at dinner, how long is this dinner going to go on? It's very rare, other than kids' parties, where you know the start time and the finish time. It's very rare to actually know the structure. And I think that can make us nervous and uneasy and feel trapped. So you're not trapped with therapy. It's very much autonomous. I have not answered your question. What studies do I particularly like?

• 47:40Chris Williamson?

  That was what I wanted to know about the the reason for the fifty minute hour. That was that was good. But yeah, I also wondered if you wanted to allow yourself to indulge academically with any of this stuff that you've come across recently or old schooly stuff that you like.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Yalom, we just love Yalom. He is absolutely riveting and I haven't mentioned him today, so I need to because he's our total hero. He's eighty eight years old. He is one of the liveliest writers you'll ever come across. Read anything by him. His memoir, Becoming Myself, is just so excellent. He's all about being human. He discloses quite a lot, but he's also rigorous. I mean, one of the problems with being overly sloppily disclosing is that it can it can seem kind of undisciplined. So you want a therapist who's human, but who's also really seasoned, who knows his or her stuff, who isn't just sitting there having some kind of meandering chit chat.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  Um, if if anyone is curious and wants to understand the mind of a brilliant psychotherapist, read Yalom.

• 48:47Chris Williamson?

  How do you spell it?

• 48:49Speaker 00

  Y A L O M.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Um, and his his writing is playful as well. It's enjoyable. There's a great problem in a lot of psychotherapy literature, which is that it's very turgid and hard to read. And it can remain in its own echo chamber for that reason. It's not totally public facing. Yalom Yalom opens it up and makes it accessible. He also fictionalizes, so he tells stories. And and I think that's really transformed the field of psychotherapy because because people can read about it who aren't just inside the profession.

• 49:25Chris Williamson?

  What do you think's happening with this turgidity within the the field of psychotherapy? Is it a a hardness in response to trying to be more to appear more scientific?

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Uh, very possibly. I think it's also an insecurity. I I mean, by deliberately obfuscating, you can feel superior and expertly. You do see it in different industries. You see it with doctors. I I mean, not all doctors, of course. I think great doctors break things down and make them make situations explainable so that you're not just in the dark. But it can be a way of marking superiority to throw terms that you that you can't possibly understand. And then, and then it's intimidating. So I, I think sometimes psychotherapists are guilty of that by just speaking about, I, and I threw some terms at you. I'm, I probably sound like a hypocrite because I said existential humanism and. But.

• 50:22Chris Williamson?

  We want the terms. We want to learn those things.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  If you start saying, I work phenomenologically vis a vis hermeneutics, I, you know, then you can end up just thinking, okay, I better not argue because she knows what she's talking about because I didn't understand any of that. Um, and it should be accessible. There, a- again, that's where Alan is, is brilliant because he's unafraid to simplify. But that doesn't mean it isn't packed with intelligence and wisdom. But i- it takes a certain type of courage to say things in a clear way.

• 50:56Chris Williamson?

  We were discussing this last night, myself and Chris Sparks, one of my buddies, and um, we were talking about the fact, I, I think I'm particularly bad on Twitter. Because um, I'm not like one of these one sentence, two sentence long, beautiful aphorism, maxim to go up on your wall, live, laugh, love guys, like that's not, um, that's not my bag, but give me a thousand words, I can probably like ha- half fart a semi competent concept out. Um, but I also think that there is, there is a laziness that's inherent in being that verbose. Like the fact that you have to take up so much time. It's like, no, no, no, like, tell me, what is the tip of the spear of exactly what it is that you're talking about?

• 51:40Chris Williamson?

  If you can't distill it down, if you can't explain it to a child, then essentially you don't know it, right?

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Um, but don't you think it takes a certain kind of courage to go there? To make things accessible?

• 51:54Chris Williamson?

  I think so, because it requires you to use the language of the, the everyday proletariat, right? Like you gotta use the, the, the, just normal, normal terminology. There's nothing special about this. You're letting go of all of the trappings and trimmings of the, you know, you've done five years, what did you say it was? It's five years of consistent psychotherapy to become a therapist, like you have to receive it.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:17Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So you gotta do that. Then you've done all your qualifications. You've been to all these seminars, you, you know, all the practice clients, I'm gonna guess that you'll have had to have done and all this sort of stuff. And then you start using words like.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Hours of practice clients, minimum.

• 52:30Chris Williamson?

  How many?

• 52:30Speaker 00

  Four hundred and fifty hours.

• 52:33Chris Williamson?

  Quite a lot. And you've done all this work and then you've got to go like, start using words like feeling and you want to.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Go back to basics.

• 52:43Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you want to, you want to be able to, because you are right, there's certain industries that lend themselves to this academic elitism, because it's actually required. You can't talk about the CRP2 gene metastasizing into this cancer, because that is what it is, right? The medical profession particularly, or engineering, rocket science, you don't talk about it in terms of like, up and down. It's specific terminology and I wonder how much of it is bizarrely from a group that really shouldn't be doing it, is a little bit of signalling from psychotherapists.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  Really good point. Really interesting angle.

• 53:23Chris Williamson?

  What do I say? What do I say? So we've got Yalom, we've got, if someone was going to read something from Freud, is there anything that's accessible from him?

• 53:33Speaker 00

  There's plenty that's accessible, actually. Some of his case studies are written like short stories in a really beautiful way. I would say Civilization and Its Discontents is just wonderful. I also think he wrote just the most beautiful small essay called On Transients, and it was based on a walk he went on with the poet Rilke, where they're arguing about whether or not it's horrendous that time passes. And Rilke is freaking out because he's looking at flowers and beautiful things in nature and he's just lamenting the passage of time. He can't bear that it's also fleeting. And Freud argues that it's

• 54:16Speaker 00

  this that kind of makes up the essence of life and that gives us meaning and it's ridiculous in a way for Rilke to dispute that. And.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  You can relate to both of them. I probably relate more to Rilke and his kind of mortality fit. But it's such a beautiful, interesting essay for those of us who struggle with time passing. I'm definitely one of them. It's another issue that comes up in therapy. And by the way, I think one of the important things to realize about therapy is that sometimes you just can have someone bear witness to your struggles. It doesn't mean every problem will be solved. So something like the passing of time, mortality, those are horrendous facts of life and I mean, not entirely horrendous, you can find the beauty in them too. Sometimes you just need someone to bear witness. It doesn't mean that the therapist will make it go away

• 55:06Speaker 00

  or say that everything is just dandy, but just having someone else acknowledge those struggles is is very reassuring in its way and confirming. So yes, on transience, excellent essay. I also think anything written by Winnicott is wonderful. We we love him at the School of Life. We think he's like a warm hug. He writes with warmth, compassion, great wisdom. He came up with the concept of good enough, which is which is pretty vital.

• 55:40Chris Williamson?

  What's that concept? How would you describe it?

• 55:42Speaker 00

  The concept is letting go of perfectionism and and embracing good enough. And it was particularly revelatory for thinking about motherhood. He was in 1950s Britain as a leading pediatrician and child psychoanalyst. And he he transformed the landscape of maternal expectations by thinking that actually the mother should aim to just be good enough. I mean, we we still need to be reminded of that. Because before that, believe it or not, mothers were expected to be more than good enough.

• 56:17Speaker 00

  So it's, it's again, it's very consistent with the School of Life's ethos of managing expectations, being a little bit pessimistic and then pleasantly surprised when things are okay, not, not overly demanding perfection.

• 56:34Chris Williamson?

  I think that's a good way to go about life.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, agreed.

• 56:38Chris Williamson?

  If anyone wants to find out anymore, where should they head? They want to learn about the School of Life psychotherapy or any other, like a good psychotherapist near me or whatever? Is there a body or something?

• 56:50Speaker 00

  Yes, I mean, I think you can look at the counseling directory. The thing is, and I don't want to just advocate, of course, I personally vetted and selected the therapists at the School of Life, so I'm very confident in recommending them, but I'm not saying that absolutely everyone needs to go there and only there to get good therapy. The thing that matters most is the therapeutic relationship. Whomever you go to, assess that therapist, ask questions, do not just assume that that therapist has to be right for you. If you feel that there is no chance of this therapist understanding you, forget it. And that, to me, is the, the great litmus test for whether or not it's going to stand a chance of being

• 57:34Speaker 00

  effective. And if you think, God, this therapist may not get everything right, but he or she really seems to get me and has made some quite insightful remarks that are very pertinent to me, then do give it a chance. But it's, it's really that felt sense. So you have to also determine whether or not it feels like the right dynamic.

• 57:55Chris Williamson?

  I think it's definitely a challenge when you go into that sort of a situation. You're wanting to be open, but also you're, and you're trying not to be judgmental of yourself, but you need to somehow retain some degree of.

• 58:14Chris Williamson?

  Assessment of the of the person who who you are, who you're going through therapy with. Um. I imagine that for a lot of people, there must be some challenges with doing that about just how how good that that particular um likability that appropriateness is.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um. Yes. So if you do want therapy from the School of Life, go to the website and we we offer online sessions as well as in person. I don't know what your personal view is of that, if you're having in person sessions or online.

• 58:50Chris Williamson?

  Online. So I'm, uh, I'd have to say that going face to face, it's it's one thing that's been really challenging for me has been to take myself out of the podcast mindset. So, you know, I want to, I want to host the therapist. I want to be like, oh, so that's a really interesting this. So why don't we talk about and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like this is, this is the one time that you are talking camera to camera on microphone. And it's not your job to try and host this conversation and try and elicit something from some interesting insight from the person you're speaking to. It's yeah, very much so. And I guess it's

• 59:23Speaker 00

  Over intellectualized sometimes as well.

• 59:26Chris Williamson?

  Incredibly cerebral. Yeah. Um. You know, if I was to put Johnny and Youssef, the two guys that that are common guests on the show with me, if I was to put them in therapy as well, I'm going to guess that they would face the same struggles that I do, which is that I try to rationalize an awful lot. Trying to cerebrally um break down, justify the answer. What is the why? Why is the this? Oh, that's an interesting. And I'm like, I can feel myself um getting pulled by some anecdote from earlier in my life that I think would land well. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like, that's you're not here to do that. You're not here to try and have an anecdote land well. Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  The need to dazzle is an interesting one as well.

• 1:00:08Chris Williamson?

  Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I do. I do sometimes dazzle, so.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  Well, no, you're and you're so clearly charming and gregarious and a great conversationalist. But allowing yourself to be dull would be very interesting in your therapy. I would recommend it if you can take that risk of being ordinary, of not being incredibly impressive and clever.

• 1:00:30Chris Williamson?

  You know what it is, Charlotte? I knew there was a reason that I brought you onto this podcast. Anyway, look, it has been absolutely awesome. I really hope that we've opened some people's eyes today. I genuinely do think that this topic about why people might need therapy, a lot more people than believe it, and why people that aren't just in catastrophic turmoil shouldn't, aren't the only people that go there. In the same way, it's not just fit people that go to the gym. It shouldn't just be people that are in catastrophe that go and get therapy. It's not just people who have a dependency on alcohol that can use sobriety as a tool to make their lives better.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:05Chris Williamson?

  There's this common theme, right, that's moving through an awful lot of it. You don't just need to wear elephant pants to do meditation, so.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  No problem, too big or too small for therapy.

• 1:01:15Chris Williamson?

  I like it. Look, Charlotte, it's been absolutely awesome. Links to everything.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  I'm talking with you.

• 1:01:19Chris Williamson?

  I know, we need to do more. I'll come down. I'll come down and I'll see you. I've also, through a mutual friend, another shout out to Abby, the girl who got me, Robert Green. Elaine's gonna come on, partly through next year. So she's managed to do an intro with us there, which will be really, really fun. But yeah, links to everything that we've spoken about, School of Life Psychotherapy, Freud on transience, Winicott's work, Yalom's work, plus everything else will be linked in the show notes below. If you've enjoyed the episode, you know what to do. Like, share and subscribe. Also, comments below, I'll be checking them out, or give me your thoughts. If you want to ask me about my experience with therapy, feel free at Chris Wellek, wherever you follow me. But for now, Charlotte, it's been awesome. Thank you.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Thank you.