Part Two: Cult Leaders Target You At Your Weakest. Never Confess This To Them | Rick Alan Ross

Cult expert Rick Alan Ross (founder of the Cult Education Institute and author of Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out) reveals how cults are shaping modern society in ways most people never realize. Could a cult be influencing U. S. politics? On this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, we examine the disturbing allegations surrounding Tulsi Gabbard's (former director of national intelligence) spiritual guru, including claims of child abuse, his reported influence on her political career, concerns about potential access to national secrets during her time as Trump's Director of National Intelligence, and why Ross says fully vetting government officials is more important than ever. Rick also answers one of today's most controversial questions: Is MAGA a cult? He explains what actually qualifies as a cult, shares examples of modern-day cults and cult-like organizations influencing global politics, and reveals what ordinary people can do to protect themselves. Think you'd never join a cult? Think again. Ross explains why anyone (regardless of intelligence, education, or success) can become vulnerable, why loneliness and social isolation make people especially susceptible, how cults first draw people in, and the psychological process they use to slowly break people down over time. You'll learn the 3 stages of thought reform (coercive persuasion), why social isolation is considered a core element of destructive thought programs, what makes a cult truly dangerous, why followers often lose their critical thinking and sense of empowerment, and whether cult leaders actually believe what they're preach, or knowingly manipulate others. Rick also breaks down: - Why it's so difficult (even for trained experts) to infiltrate cults and rescue members - How deprogramming works, why it can take so long, and what happens when interventions fail - Hidden warning signs of controlling leaders, including subtle behaviors followers display around them - Scientology's controversial "auditing" process and how it functions psychologically - Whether support groups like AA could ever be considered cults - Where the line exists between healthy religious devotion and dangerous religious extremism - Why accountability within leadership is essential, and why claims of having "a direct line to God" deserve careful scrutiny The conversation goes far beyond traditional cults. Rick explains how abusive romantic relationships often use the same psychological tactics, including how narcissistic partners create dependency, weaponize the fear of disequilibrium, why explosive behavior is never acceptable in a healthy relationship, and the key warning signs that you're dating someone controlling or abusive. We also explore how UFO communities can evolve into cult-like movements, examine real-world examples of UFO-based cults, and discuss how cult psychology is appearing in workplaces, startup culture, and organizations facing uncertainty as AI transforms the workforce. Finally, Rick shares practical tools everyone can use to recognize manipulation before it's too late. And stay until the very end to hear the shocking story of whether Mayim was personally targeted by a cult! Rick Alan Ross' book, Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out: https://cultsinsideout.com/The Cult Education Institute: https://culteducation.com/ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Maya Bialik and I'm flying solo here today. Jonathan is away, but we're speaking to Rick Allen Ross, a private consultant and cult intervention specialist. He's the author of Cults: Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out. And Ross has been qualified, accepted, and testified as an expert court witness in 11 different states within the United States, including US federal court. He has facilitated more than 500 interventions to rescue people from cultic situations. He is the leading authority on cults. And we're going to be talking today about the places where cult-like behavior may be making its way into our very own government. Is Donald Trump, is MAGA a cult?

• 0:47Mayim Bialik?

  What about Tulsi Gabbard and the allegations surrounding the cult that she was raised in, which may be making its way into our government decisions and communication today? Rick is also going to talk to us about how many of the psychological mechanisms found in cults appear in everyday life, in our workplaces, in our relationships. There is so much to explore. Make sure to check us out on Substack as well. And here is part two of our conversation with Rick Allen Ross.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Break it down.

• 1:15Mayim Bialik?

  Full disclosure, I'm a bleeding heart liberal, right? So when you say psychopath, I hear mental illness. I hear that someone is suffering. I hear that someone, you know, is in a different category. And I'm not saying that that's not accurate. But when we start talking about malignant narcissism and we start thinking about some of these personality characteristics, I cannot help it, my mind goes to relationships. And especially with the conversation on social media and how much, you know, you can diagnose this boyfriend or that girlfriend, right? These are terms that we're now throwing around very, very lightly. You're not using them lightly and you're speaking about them from an appropriate clinical perspective.

• 1:58Mayim Bialik?

  But, and, how many times do we see relationships where you are isolated? There's often some form of trauma bonding, right? Some sort of vulnerable connection point or, you know, a place to kind of get in. An overemphasis on someone's weaknesses? An insertion of this partner as, "I'm gonna fix you. I'm gonna help you. Don't talk to those friends. Come hang out with me more. Read this book, Let's Be Together All The Time." And it's couched in love. But it actually, I mean, like, I don't know how to say it.

• 2:38Mayim Bialik?

  How do you know if you are dating someone who is using coercive mind control and calling it love? What is the difference?

• 2:49Speaker 01

  I have a chapter, as you know, in my book on abusive controlling relationships. And then there's an example of an intervention I did to get a young woman out of a relationship like that. The warning signs would be, look at the typical behavior of someone with narcissistic personality disorder. And ask yourself, does this fit as a description of the person that I'm involved with? For example, can they be wrong? Or when you point out a mistake or you criticize something they do, are they eventually going to have a meltdown if you persist? Are they gaslighting you?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Are they making little critical remarks about what you do and say to undermine your confidence in your own ability to think for yourself? Are they going after your self-esteem? Are they isolating you? Are they telling you, "Well, you know, we need to spend more time together. Why do you have to go see that girlfriend? Why do you have to spend so much time with your parents? Do they want you to be in their sphere of influence constantly? And really, are they shutting other people out?" And then I think it's important to ask yourself,

• 4:14Speaker 01

  what sacrifices has this person made in our relationship? In any, in any relationship, any relationship, people make sacrifices. You sacrifice your time. You don't go to this or that function in order to spend more time with a person. Maybe you even make a financial sacrifice. So the question I would ask is, is this person that you suspect might be someone with NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, and be an abusive controlling partner, have they made any sacrifices for you? What are they?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  What sacrifices have you made for them? Let's weigh that out. And, and another thing, do they have a kind of these raging tempered meltdowns? That's, that engenders what we can call fear of disequilibrium. So in other words, the person who experiences their partner having a raging meltdown, screaming, carrying on, they feel like, "Well, what did I say or do that led to this? And I'm not going to say or do that ever again because I, I don't want to go through another one of those."

• 5:39Speaker 01

  And so that ends up becoming a controlling factor in how you live.

• 5:45Mayim Bialik?

  First of all, I've never heard that phrase, this fear of disequilibrium. I mean, that's the basis also of childhood abuse, right? If you grow up with a raging parent, for example, it puts the entire house on edge because no one wants to experience that again. So there's a constant calculation and calibration, which, for those of us who grew up in interesting homes, it's this hyper vigilance, right? What can I do to either not be seen or to please everybody or to make everybody laugh? Like, how can I accommodate the situation? But the reason that I think this is interesting in the context you're talking about is when you insert that into a romantic relationship,

• 6:28Mayim Bialik?

  you're then potentially reactivating, right? This desire to maintain peace that maybe some of us couldn't figure out in our childhoods, right? And then you have the perfect formula, right? For this kind of accommodation that, of course, can lead to a coercive situation.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  What it boils down to is the person who is the raging person that has these meltdowns, what they understand, and they understand that my partner is afraid that I will have one of my meltdowns. And in fact, I will have my meltdown. You know, it's almost like a child having a tantrum in order to get what he or she wants. If the parent says, "You get it. What is it that you want? Well, I want that, I want this. Okay, here it is." So the child learns that is a means of controlling my parent. What the partner learns is fear of disequilibrium.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Fear of me having one of my meltdowns is, is becoming a controlling tool that I am using to control my partner. Because my partner is afraid to say or do anything to upset me. And therefore, they are narrowing their behavior according to my dictates out of fear of disequilibrium. And, and let me just point this out, and I've had to point this out to a number of people, is that type of behavior is never okay. If you're in a relationship and you have a partner who has raging fits, when you point out something that's not quite right

• 8:12Speaker 01

  or you're, you're critical of something or questioning something, when they go into a rage like that, that type of behavior is never okay. And it's like Maya Angelou once said, "When people show you who they are, believe them." And so if someone you're in a relationship with behaves in that way, you need to take a step back and then ask yourself, "What is this? Why is this?" Because the person who behaves that way, they're going to blame it on you. They're gonna say, "You know, you made me like that. You pushed me, it was your fault. If you hadn't done A, B, and C, I wouldn't have done that."

• 8:55Speaker 01

  And the answer to that is, "Excuse me, but that type of behavior is never okay. And I don't care what you think I did. I don't..." Most people that I've I've talked to that are in abusive controlling relationships, I'll say, do you act that way? And they'll say, no, I don't. Well, then, why do you think they have the right to act that way? That way is not okay. And people need to ask those questions.

• 9:22Mayim Bialik?

  I will be Venmo-ing you my $350 for this therapy session. This is fantastic. No, but I mean, this really, this went in a direction that I was not expecting. I'm thinking about the things that we tolerate, right? And I'm thinking about how cults, right, are the culmination of how much you can take, right? What is your personal breaking point? How does that become, you know, a collective breaking point? And then, once you're in it, it feels like there's no way out, right? I mean, that can, especially if you're isolated, and this happens in relationships, you know, how many times does anyone listening have that girlfriend or that boyfriend, right, who comes back into their life and says, I

• 10:06Mayim Bialik?

  know you haven't heard from me, I was in a relationship that wasn't allowing me to even hang out, right? And like, even if it's on a small scale, I can see now how that can extrapolate out with the right, right, the right person controlling that, and especially in a group setting, how that could just keep building. It's really fascinating. My MB Alex Breakdown is supported by Rabbit Air. I have to say, we absolutely love our Rabbit Air purifiers. I'm one of those people who didn't know that this could change my life until I got my Rabbit Air. We actually have three of them, so we can have allergen-free air wherever we're spending our time and recording. And with fall allergy season on the way, having a high-quality, effective air purifier on hand is absolutely key to

• 10:51Mayim Bialik?

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• 11:35Mayim Bialik?

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• 12:20Mayim Bialik?

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• 13:03Mayim Bialik?

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• 13:46Mayim Bialik?

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• 14:31Mayim Bialik?

  deserve, so you can feel confident and refreshed.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Another thing, Myam, is that there are different types of narcissistic controlling people.

• 14:43Mayim Bialik?

  Say more.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  There's the covert narcissist, and then there's the overt narcissist. So, so you could be involved with someone who's rather introverted, and they they might be quiet, and they're not bragging about how great they are, which is typical narcissistic behavior, you know, with grandiose claims and delusions. But instead, they're rather quiet, subdued, and they're kind of flying under the radar. And and yet, when you look at their overall pattern of behavior, you recognize that they are abusive and controlling, and that they are narcissistic. So, for example, if those people who are familiar with the story of

• 15:29Speaker 01

  of the rock singer Tina Turner, Ike Turner, Ike Turner was like a cult leader, and he controlled Tina Turner for 18 years. And and when I think of Tina Turner, for those of that don't know, she was a dynamic and powerful woman. And yet, she was controlled by Ike Turner for 18 years. And then she broke free of him. He was an overt narcissist in many ways within the group. But then, when he would be in interviews at times, he would be very quiet. So, he was hard to read.

• 16:08Mayim Bialik?

  You wouldn't guess it by seeing him in an interview. You wouldn't be like, oh, that's a really, really like, that's an obnoxious guy, or you could see how he could control her. These are often people who are unassuming, and they just kind of sit there. It's what's going on behind the scenes is what happens with a covert narcissist. And also, there's, there's a thread of narcissism here that you're talking about, that I'm just, you know, I'm thinking of relationships I know, or relationships I've had, right? That person who's, you know, doesn't seem to be demanding, and yet, you can never please them. And there's always something wrong. And it's always like, what didn't I do right? And, oh, I should just cancel my plans, and then I'll just be available so they don't,

• 16:52Mayim Bialik?

  you know, get pissy and pouty. That's some of that covert stuff I'm sort of, you know, tracking.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  And that's why we, a lot of times, will use the the description "cult-like" to describe these relationships, or or different aspects of a situation at a business that you work at, or a school that you attend, or whatever. They may not be a full-blown cult, and have all three of those core criteria, but but at the same time, they may be expressing something that seems cult-like, in in the sense that it's very controlling, it's very manipulative, and so on.

• 17:30Mayim Bialik?

  I want you to take us into UFOs, because this is not something you have to have any particular expertise on. I'm not going to ask you if aliens exist, or if you've seen the Spielberg movie. But I'm very interested, especially in the kind of, like, propagation of information that is occurring, in particular, online. And obviously, Jonathan and I have spoken to many, many incredible experiencers, people who've testified before Congress, you know, we've spoken to all sorts of people. I think there's a very, you know, respectable conversation going on about what did the government know? That's not what I'm asking you to talk about. I'm asking you to talk about where UFO interest has become part

• 18:12Mayim Bialik?

  of a cult-like environment, online, in person, like, what is going on? And what is it about UFOs that seems to be lending itself to a sort of cult-like conglomeration of thought?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  There have been a number of cults that are based on UFO claims, that the leader is, is somehow channeling revelation from outer space, that the that the leader is an alien from outer space. I mean, Marshall Applewhite, the leader of Heaven's Gate, made such claims, which was basically kind of a UFO cult. And a group in Arizona that was led by a man named Gabriel of Yorancha, who is really Tony from Philly.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Was the whole premise of the group was that Tony was channeling revelation from outer space. And, and so if you will, people who might be open to the idea of UFOs and aliens from outer space, that could be the, the foundation for a group to build on that that empowers the leader.

• 19:35Mayim Bialik?

  I'm gonna ask a crazy question. What if that's true? Meaning, what if someone is communicating with something? And what if we find out that, you know, aliens are actually like communicating with certain people and not others? Like, what do you do then? Wouldn't you follow that person? Like, if some people, but not all of us, can communicate with something in a different plane of consciousness, I'm kind of there for it.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  So I was once doing an intervention with a man that was in a UFO cult in Colorado. And the leader, you know, made various claims about aliens from outer space and whatever. And so we went through the writings of the leader. And, and I would take particular focus on what did he say that empowers him? What, what beliefs did he transmit through his so-called revelation from outer space that was consistent with empowering him? What did he say that disempowered him? And, and we couldn't find anything that disempowered him?

• 20:45Mayim Bialik?

  Well, the whole point is you're channeling truth.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Well.

• 20:49Mayim Bialik?

  Well, no, but I'm saying the story is I'm channeling truth, and you're gonna pay money, or come to my workshop, or come see, like, I'm gonna give you the truth direct from God, aliens, whatever it is, spirit? I don't know.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I, I have watched Spielberg's ET, and I don't remember ET trying to take advantage of all the kids, you know? And so what I'm getting at is, how does the leader of the group use the transmissions to take advantage of and exploit the followers? How does it empower him? Now, when I went through the teachings of this leader, over and over again, he would say, we need to deaden the ego. We need to hold down the ego.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  And there was a consistent kind of flow through that, which was, obey me. Listen to me, not yourself, not your own critical thinking. That's your ego. You need to suppress that. You need to instead look to what I'm saying to guide you. And, and, and that pride that you have, that ego that you have, you need to stifle it, suppress it, kill it, kill it. And so what I said to this person I was working with, is look how many times he mentions that. Over and over again, he mentions, kill the ego, kill the ego. The, this is like

• 22:28Speaker 01

  the sin of pride. You need to overcome it. And why is he doing that? And what is the net effect of that? It engenders dependency upon him for guidance and so forth. I, I hear this over and over from people in abusive, controlling relationships and in cults. They will say, I could never be good enough. I could never be good enough. No matter how hard I tried, I'd be really good. And I would come up short. And I will say to them, of course, because that's by design. The leader wants you to feel broken. Therefore, you need the leader.

• 23:08Mayim Bialik?

  That's an abusive relationship. I mean, when you're a child and your parent is that way, you can't get out, which is a different story. But how, how many relationships are like that? I could never get it right. It was never, I mean, maybe speaking from personal experience. It's like, you would try and like wiggle. If I do this, it better. If I don't do that, if I drink as much as them, if I don't drink at all, right? Like, that's this negotiation. I mean, it's just fascinating to me.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but I am, here's the thing. If you can never be good enough, and you can never really remember your partner affirming your goodness, telling you, you are good enough, I love you, I'm proud of you. I think what you did the other day was fantastic. I saw your work on this or that, and I thought, wow, how great.

• 24:01Mayim Bialik?

  And I'm just mentioning this because, you know, I'm assuming my ex-husband doesn't listen to this podcast, nor do my kids. But I was not in a relationship, let's say, you know, with my person that I made children with. And I was thinking that even in a, in a marriage, right? There's always ups and downs, or in any relationship, there's ups and downs. And there's moments where you feel like, oh, I can't please them. But there's also a variety of moments, as there was, let's say, in my marriage, right? Where you are loving, you are connected, you're raising kids, you're doing things together. We're talking about, if you're in a relationship, where the vast majority of the time, you feel like you're not measuring up, you're doing it wrong, you're having like, brief moments of like reunion and good sex, because it's like makeup sex, right? That's what the red

• 24:46Mayim Bialik?

  flag is. Not, over the course of a relationship, are there ups and downs? That's gonna happen. We're talking about what is the general tone of what you're living in?

• 24:56Speaker 01

  You're looking for a consistent pattern that's repeating over and over again. And, and, and you're asking questions of yourself that are really tough. Am I in pain? Do I feel that I can never be good enough? Is my partner increasing my self-esteem and making me feel good? Or is my partner making me feel very bad? And, and I'm, I'm suffering from low self-esteem? Am I nervous? Am I losing sleep? Am I agitated? Am I isolated from friends and family, to some extent? You know, when you keep, when the answer keeps going,

• 25:39Speaker 01

  yes, yes, yes, check, check, check. It's time to really take, take a long, hard look. And then also, recognize that probably your partner is not going to be amenable to change. I mean, you can say, can we go to counseling? Can we talk this through with a mediator? I mean, that would be ideal. But, but if they, if they refuse to do that, if they won't do that, then you may have to come to a point where you say, look, I'm just gonna have to cut and walk away.

• 26:11Mayim Bialik?

  I'm thinking about tech culture. I'm thinking about Silicon Valley. I'm thinking of the documentaries that I have seen, where there is coercive control and cult-like participation in startups. And what happens is, you're in a situation where there's also a timeframe, right? Everyone has to like, you've got six weeks to like, make $10 million, or whatever it is. So there's this time crunch, everyone's sleep deprived, right? There's this pressure of like, we're gonna change the world. We've got the startup or the technology that will take us into the next universe of blobbity blue, like, insert the thing. Are most CEOs of these kinds of companies also psychopaths? Because so many of these techniques, the

• 26:55Mayim Bialik?

  isolation, I mean, I recently watched the documentary about American Apparel. And I, I couldn't believe it, the things that were going on at this company, that to everyone else's knowledge was changing the face of fashion, changing the face of the work climate culture. Like, what is going on when this enters our workplace, especially in an age right now, where AI is taking over? So many companies are trying to keep up. There's an increase in a need for forward movement. Are we susceptible to cults in our workplace?

• 27:31Speaker 01

  I think it's possible. I mean, the WeWork company has often been, often been described that way. The leader was very charismatic. And, and people kind of followed him and believed in him, even though his business plan seemed to be flawed. So the question is, is the leadership amenable to questions? Can they be criticized? Are they open to feedback from, from the people that are involved?

• 28:04Mayim Bialik?

  But how can you run a good company if you're taking feedback like that? I mean, that's the thing. Just from startups that I know, it, it necessitates a complete obedience, right? It's building a culture of do what they say, even if they're driving the company into the ground, because in many cases, they're delusional, right?

• 28:25Speaker 01

  I think collaboration is, is a key element in many, many of these companies in Silicon Valley, that people are percolating ideas together, they're helping each other. I, I think we can observe cult-like characteristics in certain companies, in, in organizations, without calling them a cult. And, and that's a valid criticism. For example, we could say, why is this group so isolated? What, what is cult-like about that? It's disturbing. But there may not be a, a confluence of characteristics in order to really call it

• 29:09Speaker 01

  thought reform or a cult.

• 29:11Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  And I think that's why Lifton, in his book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, had eight criteria. Because what Lifton was saying was that each criteria was interlocking, and, and it strengthened and enabled another criteria. For example, the cult of confession dovetails neatly with the demand for purity, which is another one of Lifton's criteria, which is the purging of all impurities from the individual. For example, doubt, any misgivings are seen as impure and need to be purged. And that would

• 29:50Speaker 01

  be brought forth by the cult of confession, which is a total confession to the organization. No boundaries, no right to privacy.

• 30:01Mayim Bialik?

  I'm thinking of conversations around Elon Musk. I'm thinking of conversations about, you know, workplace politics, even at places like Like Microsoft, like Apple, right? Companies that changed the world had leaders that, in many cases, right? Demanded a different way of functioning. And so I think that also it motivates us in our natural competitiveness to say, well, if this is what it took, right? For Apple to get there, I've got to do that, too. It's got to look like that. And I think like, that's where this stuff gets very confusing. But this notion of, you know, are your thoughts being controlled? Right? Like, there are things that we sometimes have to do in a startup, right?

• 30:45Mayim Bialik?

  To make money in six weeks or in three months. And sometimes people have to work late, and that's a thing. But what you're talking about is looking at that distinction of, is there thought control? Is there a shifting in sort of what you otherwise would have established as reality? That is a different kind of red flag.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  I think if you go through the criteria of thought reform, if you understand coercive persuasion, I did a chapter in my book on this with copious footnotes so that people could drill down and do the research. And, you know, it, there's a comprehensive system that needs to be in place in order to get that outcome of a person that would be called, quote, "brainwashed," that is under the control of the group leadership, no longer critically and independently thinking, and instead dependent upon the group to think for them.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  I think to some extent, you can look at people like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk, and you can say, oh, well, you know, they're charismatic leaders, and they're very like a cult-like leader. But the question is, don't they still want creativity? Don't they still want critical thinking to the extent that they can get a better product? A better design?

• 32:05Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I'm laughing because it's like, it's, yeah, it was just producing an entire company of cult leaders.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think so.

• 32:14Mayim Bialik?

  No, I'm, I'm, I'm being playful, but yes.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think Steve Jobs certainly was a very charismatic leader, but I think he rewarded his people. He did not exploit them in the sense of a cult leader. People had stock options. They were well compensated for. He was demanding, but he also enjoyed the creativity of the people that worked for him to make, to make a better product.

• 32:45Mayim Bialik?

  You are driving right down the road of what I'd like to discuss next, which is, you know, a little bit closer to home for all of us. You know, a lot of the qualities that you're describing, I think anyone might ascribe to the president, meaning a lot of these qualities of, you know, being a charismatic leader, you know, for some more charismatic than others, you know? A lot of the things that go on in our government, I think, you know, people on both sides of the aisle, I think, have a certain level of discomfort. But there's, there's been a lot of attention in particular to Tulsi Gabbard. This is Trump's former Director of National Intelligence.

• 33:29Mayim Bialik?

  And, you know, this has been in the news quite a bit, and you're the person that we need to talk to about it. Because, you know, beyond a lot of the paranoia that many people have about the Trump administration, and, you know, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of noise there. And I think a lot of it is politicized, and that's not what I'm interested in. But it has come to light that, you know, Tulsi Gabbard has very close ties with a leader who not only has some controversy surrounding him, his name is Chris Butler, but there have been emails and correspondence and communication uncovered that are revealing extremely

• 34:12Mayim Bialik?

  accurate representations of his desires that she is expressing. And in many cases, she's the mouthpiece for so many aspects of policy, of national security, of the direction of this country and how we talk about it. For lack of a better question, what the hell is going on? And how worried should we be? My Beelk's Breakdown is supported by Incogni. As someone whose name is a little bit everywhere online, I know how difficult it can be to keep track of what personal information is out there. Your name can show up in places you never expected, and removing it manually can feel basically impossible. Thankfully, that's where Incogni comes in. Incogni acts as a personal privacy advocate.

• 34:56Mayim Bialik?

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• 35:39Mayim Bialik?

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• 36:10Speaker 01

  I was very worried when, when I first heard that Tulsi Gabbard was, was going to be nominated for the head of National Intelligence. I was really, really concerned because for over 20 years, the Cult Education Institute has a message board that has now over 800 pages of information from insiders, former members of the group that Tulsi Gabbard was raised in, which is called the Science of Identity in Hawaii. And in fairness to Tulsi Gabbard, she was born into this group, raised in this group. Both of her parents became members.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  The leader, Chris Butler, was essentially thrown out or defected from the Hare Krishna movement, which itself is a spinoff of Hinduism that has been called a cult. And so Chris Butler was not even well-accepted within that group. And he split away, created his own group, and became known as Jagad Guru or the Guru of the group. And he was seen as all-powerful, all-knowing, and the mentor of all of his followers, and very much controlling them and influencing them. And he encouraged certain members to become involved in politics.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And one of those members, apparently, is Tulsi Gabbard.

• 37:43Mayim Bialik?

  I didn't know, I didn't know any of this. Like, my jaw is open. I mean, I didn't, I'm sorry, keep going.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Tulsi Gabbard was nominated. I was contacted by a number of people asking me, what do you think about that? And I thought it was deeply problematic. And my question was, will she or will she not share the secrets of our country with Chris Butler? Will he somehow influence how she handles her advice to the President of the United States? What, what will be Chris Butler's role? Will he be in the loop? Does our president understand that? Understand that Chris Butler has that kind of influence over Tulsi Gabbard?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  And according to the Washington Post reporting and other reporting, it appears that she was always under his tutelage, his control, to a large extent. And it's frightening to think of that because Chris Butler has certainly been called a cult leader. And if people will read some of the accounts of former members that were hurt by him, terrorized by him, traumatized by him, you can understand why people would be concerned that a man like that would have so much influence over our country, over a leader of national intelligence for our country.

• 39:14Mayim Bialik?

  I don't like that that's where your sentence ends because what I want you to say is, but it was proven that it's not a thing. And are we still in this right now? Like, this is, I stopped going on the news, and now I feel like maybe I need to go back on because it seems like this, this is a significant concern. And people are allowed to believe whatever they would like, meaning this is not about people being critical of Hinduism. This is not what that's about. This is, this feels deeply problematic in a way that, like, I think we should finish this interview, and I need to go make some phone calls. Like, what?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Let's make some distinctions because Tulsi Gabbard will say, this is an attack on my Hindu faith. Chris Butler is not a Hindu leader. He has his own specific group, the science of identity that follows him and his dictates, much of which is rejected by mainstream Hinduism. Also, the Hare Krishna movement has a tenuous connection to mainstream Hinduism in its focus on Krishna as opposed to other Hindu gods.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  So it just defies reality for Tulsi Gabbard to insinuate or claim that any kind of criticism of her and her leader, Chris Butler, is somehow a horrible attack on Hinduism. Which, this is what cults often say. If you criticize us, our behavior, what we do, it is tattamantu persecution. And how dare you persecute us?

• 40:58Mayim Bialik?

  What are some of the kinds of things that we should be afraid of when we think about Chris Butler and the things that he's done?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  There was a children's school that was run by the group, and there were a number of children who were, according to their accounts, and those accounts can be read online through the message board at culteducation.com. They were hurt, they were abused, they were traumatized by harsh treatment within the schools. And then subsequently, there's quite a bit about the homophobia of Chris Butler and his pronouncements against gays. In fact, at one point Tulsi Gabbard was opposed to gay marriage, but then when she realized

• 41:50Speaker 01

  that that was a problem for her as a congresswoman from a liberal state like Hawaii, she kind of changed her position somewhat. So what the complaints about Chris Butler, very authoritarian, very controlling, controlling of the personal lives of his followers, influencing their business decisions, their political, their voting, their politics, and also the children that were in these schools allege that they were mistreated.

• 42:24Mayim Bialik?

  I'm very interested in, like, I think it's called The Family, you know, and some of the deep evangelical kind of historical things that run through our government. You know, there are a lot of groups, a lot of religious groups, a lot of outside groups who have sought to utilize people's roles in our government to influence policy in ways that they believe serves whatever particular higher good they believe in. You know, this is one of the reasons that I'm so insistent that we separate church and state in meaningful ways, because, you know, none of us want to live in a country that

• 43:07Mayim Bialik?

  is determined by which popularity contest, you know, gets their religious or nefarious organization into power. Like, that's not the country that we want to live in. This is not a competition of who gets the most votes by the god that they believe in.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  A lot of people have come out and either said flatly or insinuated that Donald Trump is a cult leader and that MAGA or the Republican Party is now a cult. I would say, first of all, that there are many Republicans who don't agree with Donald Trump.

• 43:47Mayim Bialik?

  Well, they're not part of the cult.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Well, but they're registered Republicans.

• 43:52Mayim Bialik?

  I wouldn't say the Republican Party is a cult. I do think that there are certain things about, you know, and in many cases, it's the things that people love about Donald Trump, right? How honest he is and how he just tells it like it is and, you know, all cards on the table, kind of the way he speaks, like, that speaks to a lot of people. That's different from the Republican Party for me, right? And there are people who won't question him, and there are people who are kind of like bending reality and bending the Constitution to say, this works for me because he understands a higher good. That makes me nervous. That would make me nervous if people said it about a Democrat.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  There are the three core characteristics.

• 44:32Mayim Bialik?

  Let's do it.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Is Donald Trump an object of worship?

• 44:35Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  No, he isn't. No, I would disagree.

• 44:38Mayim Bialik?

  He's putting his face on money and people are buying it.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  I would say he would like to be an object of worship.

• 44:44Mayim Bialik?

  Well, so would I, but I'm not selling money with my face on it.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  I would say that the people in the MAGA movement already have an object of worship, and that would be, for example, the many white evangelicals that support Donald Trump.

• 44:59Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  They believe in Jesus. They believe in the Trinity. They believe in Christianity and the New Testament, and they're not worshiping Donald Trump. And then I would say that, does he have checks and balances? We're seeing that he does have checks and balances. His name is coming off of the Kennedy Center. He isn't able to just do anything he wants, and there are checks and balances. He's not a dictator. Does he perhaps want to be a dictator? Perhaps he does.

• 45:37Mayim Bialik?

  I just want to say that I didn't come into this conversation thinking that Donald Trump was a cult. After our conversation, I'm a little bit like, wait a second, what's going on? Because the fact is, the checks and balances that are in place are being utilized, but many people did not realize that we would need to protect ourselves from someone inside the checks and balances trying to not be checked or balanced. Like, the Constitution didn't know to protect itself from the executive branch. So, okay, that's point two. Let's go to the third.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Okay, so here's where it really comes down, is, and I would say, using the word cult to describe the MAGA movement and Donald Trump, is it really diminishes the genuine suffering of cult members and diminishes not only their suffering, but it obscures the real meaning of the word, words destructive cult. So, is the MAGA movement brainwashed? I would say, no, they are not. And I would say that calling them brainwashed is a rather condescending way of saying that those that don't agree with you are somehow brainwashed.

• 46:56Mayim Bialik?

  Also fair.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  I myself don't agree with the MAGA movement.

• 47:01Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I'm a registered Republican, but I'm one of those Republicans who didn't support Donald Trump. But that doesn't mean that I call him a cult leader or that I think that the MAGA movement is brainwashed. I mean, let's look at the history.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  There was the Southern Strategy by Richard Nixon, which changed Democrats to Republicans over the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s and the 70s. Then there was the embrace of the religious right, people like Jerry Falwell by Ronald Reagan. So a coalition was created of people that had very specific ideas about integration, about religion, and so forth. They came to the Republican Party with those ideas, and eventually they became the majority of the Republican Party. So Donald Trump didn't make them that way.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  They were already that way, and that is what they believed. And I, and some of us may-

• 48:08Mayim Bialik?

  You're not helping your case, Rick.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  No, no, so we may disagree with how they believe, but that doesn't mean they are brainwashed. And another point to make in regards to his relationship to MAGA was when he was touring with Bill O'Reilly and they did a speaking engagement in Alabama, and he talked up the COVID vaccine, and he talked about the Operation Program Warp Speed and how they came up with the vaccination for COVID. And he praised it, and you know what happened? The crowd was booing him. Cult leaders don't get booed.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Reverend Moon doesn't get booed, didn't get booed. David Koresh didn't get booed. Keith Rennery didn't get booed. But Donald Trump got booed. And when he got booed, he reacted, and his reaction was to completely step back and then come at a different point and say, but we shouldn't have mandated vaccinations. No one should be forced to take the vaccination. I'm against mandates. And then the applause started, and he could relax. That is not the relationship between a cult leader and cult followers. Cult followers typically, it's either agree with the leader or leave.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  And you are diminished by leaving. You are negatively labeled by leaving. And the leader does not change his doctrine or his beliefs to suit you.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  You change to suit the leader. And then finally, is Donald Trump destructive? Now, the people that would make the case that he is destructive are forgetting the most salient feature of the cult definition of destructive. Destructive to the followers. Is Donald Trump destructive to the white evangelicals? And red state people who don't believe in what they call woke philosophy? Or diversity? I would say that they they love what he's doing. They're very happy that Roe v. Wade was overturned.

• 50:31Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, and I think this speaks to your larger point. And of course, I would not want to in any way, you know, diminish the true significance and and impact, right, of of cults and the kind of also the kind of incredible work that you've dedicated, you know, your entire career to. I think that, you know, part of this is the language that we use, right? Even cult-like, I think, is more helpful. And and I think what's interesting is like, you know, your example about being booed. And I love this notion, right? That if someone's booed, by definition, they're not a cult leader. But I think the question is like, what does that inner circle look like? You know, and I remember I actually got to interact with someone from his first administration, from his inner circle, who said, there's a completely different person that people

• 51:15Mayim Bialik?

  don't get to see, right? And I thought, OK, so maybe there's kind of more reasonability going on. But I think that is important. The notion that he clearly hasn't taken over the country if there are still people booing and protesting and, you know, all of those things. But I think it is a concern, especially as we think about things like QAnon, right? Other kind of places where information is being passed and shared in ways that that in many cases are, you know, I think tipping the scales for a lot of us in terms of veracity. Before we wrap here, I do want to touch back, you know, on the Tulsi issue. And obviously, by the time this airs, I'm not sure, you know, what what will come up. Are there other things that we should be concerned about in terms of our government

• 51:58Mayim Bialik?

  and the influence of outside cults or leaders? Or what do we do like as a people, right? We're hearing these things about what's going on. This seems troubling. And if like Rick Ross is troubled, and if you were contacted, this seems like something we should be worried about. Is there some sort of crisis coming? What should we be prepared for? And is there anything that we can do?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  We need to have a consistent definition of what a destructive cult is. And we need to avoid having squishy definitions that can be applied to almost any group. It diminishes the the the ability that we have to to to define an actual destructive cult and do so in a way that might help people and protect people. So we don't want to be subjective. We want to have an objective definition based on the structure of the group, its dynamics, and its behavior, not on its beliefs. If a group believes crazy things that we we say, oh, that's nuts.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  That doesn't make them a destructive cult. It it means that they have beliefs that we don't appreciate. Fine, they have the right to those beliefs. But they do not have the right to do anything they please in the name of those beliefs. Having said that, I think this whole situation with Tulsi Gabbard illustrates how we need to be very careful in the vetting process and the hiring process of people in our government. That we don't want someone involved in government who is the tool or or the the pawn, if you will, of someone who is a cult leader. And we can see that cults do influence politics.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  For example, the group Falun Gong, which is led by Chinese exile Li Hongzhi, is the owner of The Epoch Times, which is a newspaper that is very much on the far right. We also can see that they own New Tang Dynasty Television. They also control the Shenyuan Dance Company.

• 54:14Mayim Bialik?

  I was gonna ask.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Which has come under scrutiny. Reverend Moon's family still controls United Press International and The Washington Times. So there are groups that control media. And as a result, they influence the daily lives of all of us to some extent. And they they influence government. In Brazil right now, there is an investigation of a bank that is controlled by a leader of a group called the Universal Church Kingdom of God. His name is Adair Macedo. He's a billionaire. He controls a great deal of the media in Brazil.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  So when groups get control of media outlets, when they influence public opinion, and and that group can be described as a destructive cult, we should be very concerned.

• 55:12Mayim Bialik?

  I don't even think I'm ever gonna sleep again after this conversation. Because I'm thinking of, and and I think this is sort of the message that I'd like to leave people with. And and again, like, the definitive book, I'm holding it in my hand, which, again, you can also use as a weapon because it's quite heavy and dense, Cults Inside Out. Cults will utilize anything that they can, whether it is media, government, even the arts and and arenas that should be neutral, right? News outlets. This is literally the way to disseminate information. But it can be used by cults to disseminate destruction. I mean, I've seen the Shenyuan.

• 55:54Mayim Bialik?

  I went, I took my kids, and we were very surprised at the content of the art that we were watching, because it had a very particular perspective about certain things that I believe it is everyone's decision to decide how to live. I was watching a dance performance that even my young children understood was trying to communicate something that is not consistent with what I'm expecting when I go to a dance performance.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it's it's infused with religious propaganda, political propaganda.

• 56:29Mayim Bialik?

  Homophobia, it's like a whole thing.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, Li Hongzhi claims that he channels a higher power from the heavens and that he is the means by which people can can understand and appreciate and use that power. I did an intervention in Europe in in which a young man who had had diabetes was not taking his insulin and almost died because he believed that the meditation and and being a Falun Gong practitioner could alleviate diabetes, which the group has proclaimed online through various websites and pages.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  And this man was a young man in his 30s with a young wife and a and a and a little girl, I think she was two or three. And he almost died because he believed that Lee was right. He is called Master Lee. And that if he didn't have the right practice, the right meditation, he would suffer. But if he could perfect it, he could alleviate diabetes. This is the type of influence that is corrosive, destructive, and it is clearly hurting people. This man was hospitalized, he almost died.

• 57:52Mayim Bialik?

  I feel like everyone needs to be vetted through you if they're gonna be working in our government. I know that no one is asking me for my opinion. But I think one of the one of the concerns that many of us have about what is going on in our government is who is making the decisions? And what what kind of appropriateness, right, is going on in the government? And I really appreciate your work. We really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being here.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 58:22Mayim Bialik?

  Wow, I really enjoyed talking to Rick Allen Ross. And I'm sorry that Jonathan wasn't here because Jonathan and I share, you know, an interest in all things, all things cult, all things persuasive. And there's so much in his conversation about relationships, about narcissistic personality that I think resonates, you know, with so much that we've spoken about here. But I wanted to share. So I don't know if I was almost part of a cult. But I was suggested that I try a form of meditation. And I'm not going to name names, and I'm not going to give the category. But the type of meditation involved going to a seminar. And at the time, I was working on The Big Bang Theory.

• 59:06Mayim Bialik?

  I had two young kids. And I was recently divorced, so they were little. They were, you know, probably four and seven, five and eight, something in there. And I don't remember how I heard about this. But you you had to go to this guy's house, which already felt strange. It was a residential neighborhood. And there was a bunch of people like me who had been sent there by someone who recommended it. And I remember that the only thing that saved me from walking out was that a woman who worked at Warner Brothers, I won't say what department, was also there. So we vaguely knew each other. So it was like someone to kind of lock eyes with.

• 59:48Mayim Bialik?

  And we sat on, you know, beautiful low cushions in this guy's house. There was a woman who was sort of in charge of getting our information. And he came in and he gave a very moving and powerful lecture about how his form of meditation would be the thing that would change our lives. You know, it would bring us out of depression. It would give us focus. It was like, whatever you wanted, it would do that. And a form of payment was was elucidated. That was a little bit unusual. Recommendation for a percentage of your monthly earnings that you would contribute. And I remember at the time, like, I was working in a job, you know, that that was not like a normal payment job.

• 1:00:31Mayim Bialik?

  And I'm thinking like, is this about money? Anyway. The way that you would sign up to commit was that you had to go to a three-day retreat, essentially. You could sleep at home, but you had to be there all day for three days. And at the time, I had young children. And as I mentioned, I was recently divorced. You know, I was not in a position to leave my children for that extended period of time. And they pursued me. They called me more than twice to follow up and make sure I hadn't changed my mind. And I remember when I explained to them, this is because of, you know, I have

• 1:01:12Mayim Bialik?

  young children. I don't, I can't be away like this right now in my life. And the response was like, how badly do you want what we have? You know, like, what are you going to give up? And that was it for me. That was the moment that I knew there's something not right here. There's something not right about this form of influence. And I often wonder, should I have done it? And my kids would have been fine, and their dad's amazing, and they would have been with him. But there is something very strange. And I've heard of other people who are part of this. And yeah, it definitely sounds like there are some qualities like Rick was describing. It's very strange to me. In the back of my mind, I always wonder, like, is there something that was pure there that just had a lot of

• 1:01:57Mayim Bialik?

  structure around it that I just wasn't understanding? That is my story of how I almost, I think, got into a cult. And the other thing that I was thinking as we were talking to Rick is like, what is the evolutionary advantage to either being a cult leader or following a cult leader? And I think something that is important to remember is, we want things to make sense as humans. We want to belong. And there's a tremendous component of belonging so that people stay together. You sometimes need to break up communities if they're too large, historically, because they're taking up too many resources and

• 1:02:40Mayim Bialik?

  we need to have them branch off. So there's something to understanding resource management and groups of humans, right? Because this is just like, how do humans group together? And if you think about who we were, pre-religious structure, we were just people, just trying to figure things out. And invariably, there's going to be someone who has an ability to get people to unite about things. And that is critically important for the sort of evolution of a group. Who's smarter than the way we've been doing things and can direct us in that way? How do we make progress? How do we find new sources of food or shelter? You need that person. It's always going to be that person. And they can't just be smarter.

• 1:03:25Mayim Bialik?

  They have to be charismatic. They have to bring you along with them. You know, as I describe, you know, a lot of people will note that, you know, we don't know Jesus's writings. We know what his followers, right, say that he said, which is also completely valid. But the notion being, what he had was followers who spread that word and who were able to do that. That's, that's how humans move along. That's how we do things. That place where it becomes a question of, where does an evolutionary need for us to belong, for us to move forward and make progress, where does that become exploited by certain people? And obviously, Rick Allen Ross is the person to talk to about what happens

• 1:04:06Mayim Bialik?

  and all of the different ways that will look, whether it's, you know, a corporate business, whether it's a relationship. These are all techniques, right, that can be used. Really, really, sorry that Jonathan missed this episode, but I really, really enjoyed talking to Rick. And please make sure to check us out on Substack, biologicbreakdown.substack.com. Thanks for being here. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.