Cult Leaders Target You At Your Weakest. Never Confess This To Them | Rick Alan Ross

Cult expert Rick Alan Ross (founder of the Cult Education Institute and author of Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out) reveals how cults are shaping modern society in ways most people never realize. Could a cult be influencing U. S. politics? On this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, we examine the disturbing allegations surrounding Tulsi Gabbard's (former director of national intelligence) spiritual guru, including claims of child abuse, his reported influence on her political career, concerns about potential access to national secrets during her time as Trump's Director of National Intelligence, and why Ross says fully vetting government officials is more important than ever. Rick also answers one of today's most controversial questions: Is MAGA a cult? He explains what actually qualifies as a cult, shares examples of modern-day cults and cult-like organizations influencing global politics, and reveals what ordinary people can do to protect themselves. Think you'd never join a cult? Think again. Ross explains why anyone (regardless of intelligence, education, or success) can become vulnerable, why loneliness and social isolation make people especially susceptible, how cults first draw people in, and the psychological process they use to slowly break people down over time. You'll learn the 3 stages of thought reform (coercive persuasion), why social isolation is considered a core element of destructive thought programs, what makes a cult truly dangerous, why followers often lose their critical thinking and sense of empowerment, and whether cult leaders actually believe what they're preach, or knowingly manipulate others. Rick also breaks down: - Why it's so difficult (even for trained experts) to infiltrate cults and rescue members - How deprogramming works, why it can take so long, and what happens when interventions fail - Hidden warning signs of controlling leaders, including subtle behaviors followers display around them - Scientology's controversial "auditing" process and how it functions psychologically - Whether support groups like AA could ever be considered cults - Where the line exists between healthy religious devotion and dangerous religious extremism - Why accountability within leadership is essential, and why claims of having "a direct line to God" deserve careful scrutiny The conversation goes far beyond traditional cults. Rick explains how abusive romantic relationships often use the same psychological tactics, including how narcissistic partners create dependency, weaponize the fear of disequilibrium, why explosive behavior is never acceptable in a healthy relationship, and the key warning signs that you're dating someone controlling or abusive. We also explore how UFO communities can evolve into cult-like movements, examine real-world examples of UFO-based cults, and discuss how cult psychology is appearing in workplaces, startup culture, and organizations facing uncertainty as AI transforms the workforce. Finally, Rick shares practical tools everyone can use to recognize manipulation before it's too late. And stay until the very end to hear the shocking story of whether Mayim was personally targeted by a cult! If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started: https://learn.nocd.com/BREAKVisithttp://www.wakingup.com/breakerhttps://www.wakingup.com/breakerfor a 2 week free trial. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to https://www.quince.com/breakdown for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Upgrade your kitchen with Our Place today. Visit fromourplace.com/BREAK http://fromourplace.com/BREAK and use code BREAK for 10% off sitewide. Go to https://helixsleep.com/breakdown to receive 27% off sitewide. Rick Alan Ross' book, Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out: https://cultsinsideout.com/The Cult Education Institute: https://culteducation.com/ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Cult leaders are very unusual characters. Charles Manson, David Koresh, Keith Rennery, often described as psychopaths.

• 0:09Mayim Bialik?

  How are cults actually part of our life today?

• 0:13Speaker 00

  They use social media. They're everywhere. Could be a religious group, political group, therapy group.

• 0:20Mayim Bialik?

  Where is the line between religious devotion and religious insanity?

• 0:25Speaker 00

  The line is not about what you believe. It's how the group behaves.

• 0:31Mayim Bialik?

  Rick Allen Ross, one of the leading experts in the world on cults and cult intervention, explains why cults are more prevalent today than ever before.

• 0:40Speaker 00

  I've deprogrammed well-educated professionals. What frequently is the narrative of people entering cults is a time of vulnerability, depressed, going through a divorce, lost their job, someone close to them die. Cult leaders can take over a person's critical thinking, isolating you, gaslighting you. We all want to think that it couldn't happen to me. Given the right set of circumstances, anyone can be had.

• 1:16Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iain Bialik, and I am here solo today. Jonathan Cohen is not with us today, but he wishes he was because this is a great episode. Are you fascinated by cult psychology, Scientology, manipulation tactics, narcissism in relationships, brainwashing, deprogramming, or the psychology of influence? Well, if you're even concerned that cults might be influencing our very own government, you are in the right place. We have got the expert here to break it all down. I'm here today with Rick Allen Ross. He is a private consultant, a lecturer, and expert in cult interventions. He began his work as an anti-cult activist in the 80s.

• 2:01Mayim Bialik?

  He's one of the leading experts in the world today on cults. He's consulted with the FBI, a ton of law enforcement agencies, as well as governments of other countries. He's been qualified, accepted, and testified as an expert court witness in 11 different states within the United States, including US federal court. He's the author of Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out. Rick has facilitated more than 500 interventions to rescue people from cultic situations. He's going to be talking with us today about why cults seem so much more prevalent than ever before. Do cult leaders actually believe what they're preaching? Or is it one giant gaslighting?

• 2:45Mayim Bialik?

  I'm going to ask Rick to explain if religion itself, 12-step programs, Scientology, how they qualify or don't qualify for the status of a cult? And what can you do if you're in a relationship that seems to be cult-like? We're going to be diving right into conversations about the role of cults in our very own government as conversations about Tulsi Gabbard's involvement with an established cult seems to be making their way into policy and communication. Rick consulted on this cult, and he shares the warning signs that he wishes someone had listened to. Rick's also going to walk us through how the belief in UFOs can be exploited by cult

• 3:28Mayim Bialik?

  leaders to make people do things they never expected they would do. We're also going to talk about how cult-like behaviors can make their way into abusive and controlling relationships, how to identify if you are dating a narcissist, and the crucial differences between overt and covert narcissism and the dangerous psychological trap known as the fear of disequilibrium, which makes its way into many of our relationships without us even knowing it. It's a pleasure to welcome to the Breakdown Rick Allen Ross.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Break it down. Thank you for having me on.

• 4:02Mayim Bialik?

  Very excited to talk to you, excited to talk about Cults Inside Out, which I would say is the definitive, you know, book on anything and everything cult, from origins to processing to deprogramming to some of the ways that cults are actually a part of our daily lives in ways we may not even fully be aware of. Your career, and I also recognize you from documentaries that I've seen, I've seen pretty much every cult documentary that there is. I'm fascinated with this. Just as a layperson, your career has spanned sort of our common, modern knowledge of cults. They've changed in many ways, and in many ways, they're very similar, right, over the years.

• 4:45Mayim Bialik?

  Why is there an interest, though, for our generation now in cults beyond the ways that we normally think of it, right? We think of religious leaders, we think of gurus, it's this like far-off thing. How are cults actually part of our life today?

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Well, they're pervasive. They're online, they use social media, they're streaming, they have podcasts. I mean, you name it, they're everywhere. And I think what intrigues people is the idea that some group can control people to that extreme. And then, of course, the cult leaders themselves, often described as psychopaths, are flamboyant of very unusual characters, like Charles Manson, David Koresh, or Keith Rennery.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  So what it is, is this incredible fascination with the fragility of the human mind, I think, and how cult leaders can, you know, take over a person's critical thinking or shut it down.

• 5:57Mayim Bialik?

  And I think most people would assume, I would never join a cult. I would never be drawn into that. I'm too smart for that. I'm too aware. I've heard of Charles Manson, I've heard of these things, I've seen the documentaries. But there are actually ways that the techniques that cults use are utilized by other groups as well. And for those who are on the cynical side, they might say, all of religion is a cult, right? All of politics is a cult. But can you speak a little bit to what cult-like techniques look like in our daily life? You know, you've got an entire chapter of the book dedicated to relationships. What are these techniques? Because cults is obviously this umbrella, but there's so much that falls under it that

• 6:40Mayim Bialik?

  is outside of the realm of an organized group that, you know, takes you away from your home and you never speak to your family again.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  There are these basic building blocks that form the foundation of our understanding of what has commonly been called cult brainwashing. And that would be the book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism by Robert J. Lifton, Influence by Robert Cialdini, Coercive Persuasion by Edgar Schein, and also two books that I think are often neglected, Snapping and Holy Terror by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. And then there's the book Cults in Our Midst by Margaret Singer. So if you put these together, you have the foundation of what we understand cult brainwashing to be.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  And Lifton breaks it down into eight criteria to determine whether or not a thought reform program is ongoing. And one of them is social isolation. That is becoming removed from society at large, becoming so preoccupied in a particular group or a social structure that you really are neglecting previous relationships, your family, et cetera. And you're just hearing one train of thought, one version of what reality is supposed to be. And so the most extreme expression of that would be a cult compound.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  But now what we're seeing is people getting really kind of embedded online. So they're following people that are like-minded, they're watching streaming of what this group is putting out or this movement, endlessly going through YouTube videos, even though...

• 8:32Speaker 00

  Information is so accessible, they become cocooned online in a world of like-minded people. And this is often manipulated by the leadership of various groups and movements.

• 8:45Mayim Bialik?

  It almost seems like social media was designed to propagate cults.

• 8:50Speaker 00

  I'll give you an example. There was a man that I was retained by his wife to do an intervention. And this was a man with an MBA. He had a position with a Fortune 500 company. He worked from home. He had gone through a tragedy. His best friend, like a brother, had died. And, and he died very young, in his 30s, suddenly. And it, it really affected this man. And he went online and he started watching certain videos that were based on a search that he had done.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  And as you know, on YouTube, if you watch certain videos, YouTube's algorithm will push up more of the same. And so then he went, as they say, down the rabbit hole and into a very extreme group. And it all happened within his home office while his wife, an attorney, was working. And so that's an example of how people can be pulled in. And I think we all want to think that we're impervious, that we're immune, that it couldn't happen to me. But you know, I've deprogrammed through interventions, five medical doctors. One was a orthopedic surgeon, another was an anesthesiologist.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  They were not stupid. They were well-educated professionals, very astute and well, well-respected in their field. So it seems to me that given the right set of circumstances, that anyone can be had. And I think if we accept that, understand that, then we're more prepared to deal with it when it confronts us.

• 10:38Mayim Bialik?

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• 14:56Mayim Bialik?

  We have that bias of there's a certain kind of person that this happens to, right? Maybe you can explain a little bit about deprogramming. There's a quote I actually wanted to read. You're quoting Ted Patrick, which was the first, you know, kind of deprogrammer. And he said, "Deprogramming is like taking a car out of the garage that hasn't been driven for a year. The battery has gone down. In order to start it up, you've got to put jumper cables on it, right? Fine. It will go dead again. So you keep the motor running until it builds up its own power. This is what rehabilitation is. Once we get the mind working, we keep it working long enough so that the person gets in the habit of thinking and making decisions again."

• 15:37Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, as a neuroscientist, I'm fascinated about how the brain can undergo such a significant change, that logic, reason, nothing can penetrate that. What is it like to deprogram someone? And you've deprogrammed people from some of the most famous, persistent, and tragic cult stories, right, that, that many of us have heard in our lifetime? What is that like? What are you going in with? And what's it like when it doesn't work? I know you have a very high success rate, but what happens when it doesn't work?

• 16:11Speaker 00

  When it doesn't work, the person decides to return to the group, stay in the group, and their family has to use what I would call coping strategies to deal with them afterwards, which is to maintain a line of communication, make it clear to them that your love is unconditional, that you will always be there for them regardless of their choice. And what the deprogramming is, is essentially an educational process. So it is in, in ways like a drug or alcohol intervention. It begins as a surprise.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  The family is there, I'm there, and we basically cover four blocks of discussion. One is defining what is a destructive cult, which Lifton, in a paper that was published at Harvard, identified what I would call the nucleus for every definition of a destructive cult, which is number one, a charismatic leader that becomes an object of worship. He is the defining element and driving force of the group and has dictatorial power over his followers.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Then second, that that leader uses identifiable techniques of thought reform, coercive persuasion, to gain undue influence over his followers. And then finally, if it's a destructive cult, the leader uses his influence to exploit and do harm to those followers. So you take those three core characteristics, and it could be a religious group, it could be a political group, it could be a therapy group, a multi-level marketing scheme, whatever. And, you know, if it quacks like a duck and it walks like a duck, it just might be a duck.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  So that is the first area of discussion, is what is a destructive cult? How is it defined? Are there parallels between that definition and the group that you are now in? And then second, what is thought reform? How, how could I understand whether or not a thought reform program or coercive persuasion is being used on me? For example, in Edgar Schein's book, Coercive Persuasion, he identifies three stages of coercive persuasion. The first, unfreezing or breaking someone down. The second, changing them.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  The third, locking them in or refreezing them, as Schein says. So is the group that you're in, do they have a breaking down process? How do they break people down? How is that accomplished? Do they expect you to change? What are those changes? And finally, are you socially isolated in an environment that essentially locks you down? People that surround you and reinforce the group think. And then the third issue or the third block of discussion would be, what do you really know about this group? Are they keeping information from you? Are there secrets?

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Has the leader been involved in various things like fraud or, or violent behavior, criminal behavior that you're not aware of? What do you not know that you should know to make a more informed decision about the group? That's where research comes in about the group's history and the leader's history. And then finally, why did your family convene this intervention? Why, why are they here? I mean, are they crazy? What is it that they saw that caused them to be so concerned that they brought in a professional and feel that they need to do this intervention?

• 20:18Speaker 00

  So those four blocks of discussion are covered. And it could take three or four days, eight hours a day. So 24 hours, 32 hours to complete that intervention process. And at the end, the person will decide to take a break, stay with the group or leave entirely.

• 20:39Mayim Bialik?

  It's so unbelievable that, you know, you're approaching someone who has an answer for everything. Because when people become involved in these cults, and this is from my vast experience, watching every documentary that I can, the programming is such that it's like they're trained to know what people will say to try and get them to leave. Right? Like they've heard it all. I'm thinking of the TikTok dance cult that, you know, is kind of more recent in a lot of people's memory. And, you know, the, the documentary series follows in particular this family that sees what's going on, but every time they try and approach their child,

• 21:24Mayim Bialik?

  they're met with, you know, I know what you're trying to do. I can explain away where the leader's money went. Like I have the answers to everything. It's so fascinating to me, the level of mind control that, you know, that takes place. Can you give us some examples of the breaking down process? Because to my understanding, the only way that you can get someone to believe so deeply faithfully, turn over bank accounts, have sex in, you know, situations that they shouldn't, right? The only way to do that is for them to be broken down and feel that they're essentially an open vessel for whatever the cult is delivering. Can you give us some examples of what that breaking down process looks like?

• 22:08Mayim Bialik?

  And, and I have some guesses, but I'm curious if there are categories.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  There's one group that had it very systematized. And that was the drug rehabilitation community called Synanon. They had a kind of therapy process called the hot seat. So they would take a person, put them in a chair in the center of a circle of people. And that would be the hot seat. And then everyone in the circle surrounding them, other members, leadership would be bombarding them with questions and criticism about how they behave, how they react to things.

• 22:49Mayim Bialik?

  That's just a Saturday night in my house growing up. Like that's just too soon.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I had a Jewish mother who could be critical. And, and by the way, I had a bubby who was always critical.

• 23:03Mayim Bialik?

  Sorry, I was, I was just kidding, but that's kind of funny.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  I can, I can remember taking my grandmother out many times for lunch. And I'd always give the waitress money upfront and say, look, she's going to send things back. She's very critical. She's going to attack the food. Get ready.

• 23:22Mayim Bialik?

  She also may attack you personally and find your deepest insecurity and magnify it.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, can you imagine a bubby cult?

• 23:30Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, okay. So go, so go back. So you're in a, you're in a circle and everyone's saying bad things about you.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  And you're going to collapse eventually. And also they're soliciting confession from you. So they're, they're saying, you know, this, this thing that you came to us with, you were addicted to heroin. You were an alcoholic. You did this, you did that. You know, they're, they're trying to cave you in and create and engender dependency. And so what frequently is the narrative of people entering cults is that they were at a time of vulnerability. Something went wrong. They were going through a divorce. They lost their job. They weren't doing well in school.

• 24:19Mayim Bialik?

  They were suffering from addiction.

• 24:21Speaker 00

  Suffering from addiction. Someone close to them died. They were depressed. It isn't always that narrative, but that's a very frequent narrative. And we all go through rough patches in our lives. And some of us just have the bad luck to be recruited by a group called a cult at that time. And, and it may be someone that we know, a relative, an old boyfriend, girlfriend, someone close to us that we trust, who then is the one who says, hey, I know you're not feeling well. I know you're feeling bad. I can see you're struggling. I have a group that I go to that could be very helpful.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  Would you, would you come with me?

• 25:08Mayim Bialik?

  There's many things going through my head. The first one I thought of was Scientology. And I'm not just sort of being like, oh, Scientology is a cult. I'm saying that one of the techniques that, that was designed by L. Ron Hubbard, one of the techniques was a sort of truth telling, right? It was placing you, and they also, you know, had equipment that could supposedly, you know, tell where your weakness spots are. Is that what we're talking about on a larger scale?

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Well, Maya, what you're discussing is what's called auditing. So it's, or spiritual counseling is how Scientology would describe it. And you're holding a couple of metal cans that are connected by wires to a box that is called an E-meter. Now, what it really is, is a galvanic response measuring apparatus. So it measures nervous tension.

• 26:05Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  Perspiration and the needle moves when you're nervous. So as you're going through a Q and A with your auditor about what's going on in your life, that person that is your auditor, they can see what makes you nervous. So they can stop at a particular point and then drill down into a series of questions to go deeper. Once they identify an area of, that they would call as a problem or that is making you nervous. What, what that is, is confession. You're confessing everything to the auditor. They're taking copious notes with, which they put in your, in your file. And they now know you.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  They know what buttons to push. They know what your vulnerabilities are, et cetera. And in fact, in Scientology, there is a desire in, in their training and their courses to identify what they would call your ruin or the key thing that is wrong in your life, which you want to deal with and you need their help to deal with. So Scientology has a way of breaking people down through their, through their courses and their auditing process.

• 27:25Mayim Bialik?

  The other thing I thought of is when we're in a vulnerable place, right? How many times have we spoken to a friend and said, I'm feeling down. I'm feeling depressed. Or whether it's the state of the world or politic, you know, everything feels too much. I'm going to say this, not because I believe that all meditation is a cult, but there's a certain recommendation that people have made to me, I'd say half a dozen times. I live in Southern California. I'm not going to name names, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. And people have said, like, oh, you're in this state? I've got the thing for you. I know the thing that's going to change your life. And they

• 28:04Mayim Bialik?

  recommend a particular type and category of meditation. How do you know if something is a legitimate, good idea that involves a necessary connection point, right? Sometimes with a group, sometimes with a teacher? How do you know the difference between that? And is this the way that I accidentally slide into a cult?

• 28:28Speaker 00

  If it's a group, like, for example, TM, Transcendental Meditation.

• 28:32Mayim Bialik?

  Which is a very legitimate, significant kind of meditation that people do.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  I would question it because Maharishi Maheshiyogi was an interesting character guru. And my, my question is, when you're in meditation, you're in a very suggestible state. How does the group use that suggestible state? Do they try to use it as an opening to instill loyalty to the leader, to the group? Do they try to make you feel indebted to the group for whatever you think you've gotten out of the meditation? I mean, to what, to what

• 29:15Speaker 00

  extent does the group conform to the criteria of thought reform? For example, you know, milieu control, social isolation, the cult of confession. Do they, do they solicit confession? Do they look for that kind of catharsis? And, and where does that lead? To you becoming more dependent upon them, or more independent and critical thinking on your own? And, and to what extent can the groups, as Lipton would call it, their sacred science be questioned?

• 29:54Speaker 00

  Are there basic assumptions about the group's practice of meditation that cannot be questioned? Is the leader ever wrong? When was Maharishi wrong? What, what ideas or, or theories did he have that were later disproven? For example, with L. Ron Hubbard, L. Ron Hubbard believed in, in this idea that drugs or, or, or toxins could be stored in the fatty tissues of the body indefinitely. Now, later, science would prove that that's not true. That, for example,

• 30:33Speaker 00

  if you use drugs, if you use controlled substances, they are not permanently embedded within your fatty tissues, and they, in fact, are dispelled over a period of time. Hubbard, Hubbard did not ever acknowledge that. Science would later prove that. But Hubbard created a ritual within Scientology called the Purification Rundown, where you go through saunas and you ingest vegetable oil and high doses of niacin to dispel these toxins from the body. But the theory that is the basis for the Purification Rundown has been proven to be false. So,

• 31:18Speaker 00

  science has proven that. Can the leader be wrong? Does Scientology acknowledge that this theory of Hubbard became outdated? And because they are Scientology, they're based in some way on science, and therefore new discoveries, new research? No. The Purification Rundown is still being done, and the group does not dispute any part of Hubbard's theory. So, so that's when you know you're in a kind of cultic group, when those kind of questions and, and criticism cannot be offered.

• 31:54Mayim Bialik?

  There is a, a spiritual concept here, that damage that we do to our bodies, right, stays with us. The, the memory is held kind of psychically, but that's not what Scientology was getting at. However, there's something interesting about the, the physiological components that you talked about, because some of the early treatments for alcoholism, right, before we even called it alcoholism, some of those early treatments were kind of a, you know, a, a nutritional purging, right? There were all these crazy stories of the things that, like, when you'd be put in the sanatorium, like, they'd put, they'd give you, like, lots of pickled onions, or, you know, they were trying to basically leach

• 32:34Mayim Bialik?

  the alcohol, right, out of your body. But that leads to my next question. And we've spoken to a lot of people who belong to 12-step programs here. You know, we talk a lot about mental health and spiritual recovery. You know, the thing that's interesting about 12-step groups is there is no centralized leader. You know, our leaders are trusted servants, they do not govern, you know, there's actually no human that you can speak to, you know, for any of the 12-step programs. There are local chapters, and we have things like that. But I think it was when we had Moshe Kasher on, he actually talked about, he was, found recovery very young, I think he was 15 years old, when he first stepped into an AA room. And he talked about, you know, the evolution of what it's like to

• 33:17Mayim Bialik?

  have a set of rules that really cannot be challenged, and what it's like to stay in that system. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, and this is not to disparage 12-step programs, but when people are in a vulnerable state, can you talk about, you know, how, especially in addiction, that can be manipulated? My Beelk's Breakdown is supported by Incogni. As someone who's name is a little bit everywhere online, I know how difficult it can be to keep track of what personal information is out there. Your name can show up in places you never expected, and removing it manually can feel basically impossible. Thankfully, that's where Incogni comes in. Incogni acts as a personal privacy advocate. It finds the data brokers exposing your private

• 33:59Mayim Bialik?

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• 34:41Mayim Bialik?

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• 35:11Speaker 00

  Well, what I, what I would say is that Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous in and of themselves are not what I would describe as a destructive cult.

• 35:21Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  Based, based on the previous three core characteristics that I identified. To some extent, they are using a kind of coercive persuasion. You have a sponsor, there's group confession, et cetera. But as you pointed out, the leader, the originator of AA is long since dead, and there is no authoritarian leader that is running the organization. Having said that, I think that we can question the effectiveness of AA, how many people are successful in staying sober and for how long. And there are other alternatives to AA. It

• 36:02Speaker 00

  is not the only way to go. And to the extent that someone might believe that AA is the one and only way, that could be seen as somewhat cult-like.

• 36:13Mayim Bialik?

  That's interesting.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  And I would add this, Miam, is that there have been a number of cults that have insinuated themselves surreptitiously within AA meetings to recruit people who are vulnerable, who are going to those meetings. And in fact, Synanon, which was the creation of a man by the name of Charles Diedrich, Diedrich started with AA, and then he had this rehabilitation community, which became a very destructive cult. So, so there's, there's that history interwoven within the AA, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous community.

• 36:56Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, my next question, and this is all from literally you describing cults and describing the deprogramming process. So I am a person of faith, but I cannot help but notice that the ways that you describe a cult, especially that vulnerability, the confession process, which literally is part of certain aspects of religious practice. I mean, when you describe what people suggest when you're in a rough patch, right? Come to my church. I've got the place for you. I've got the answers. You know, come here. Can you talk about, and again, not to disparage religion, but where do we go from, you know, the opiate of the

• 37:38Mayim Bialik?

  masses to, you know, a religious structure that's helpful, that can very easily slide into a lot of the things you're talking about? There is a centralized figure, and in many churches, synagogues, mosques, right? You have a leader who's your teacher. I mean, in my tradition, you stand when a person of authority, whose line of thinking you believe in, enters the room. You stand for them, right? Where is the line between religious devotion and religious insanity?

• 38:08Speaker 00

  I think the line is not about what you believe, it's how the group behaves. So we focus on behavior. And then the question needs to be asked, okay, the group, or the synagogue, or the church, or the mosque, they have certain beliefs. How do those beliefs specifically empower the leadership? And how does the leadership use that power? So in other words, many times when I'm sitting with someone and I'm going through this deprogramming process, I'm asking them, okay, you were indoctrinated to believe certain things. Let's take each

• 38:48Speaker 00

  one of those things and look at it, and ask ourselves, does that empower a particular leader and give that person control over you? And what are the limits of that control? And what is the accountability for that control? So, for example, in the group, the Waco Davidians, which I had experience with and brought a number of people out of that group through deprogramming, they believed that David Koresh, whose real name was Vern Howell, that he was the Messiah, that he was God's elect on earth, speaking with the authority of God.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  And my question to them was, how does that empower him? Can you tell him no? Can you refuse his requests? For example, he would ask married women to have sex with him, and they would comply because his was the voice of authority, the voice of God. The husbands would demure because they could not oppose his authority. So the question is, how does the authority in your group use beliefs to empower them? And what are the limits of that power? And what is the accountability of that power? Now, I was raised within Judaism.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  And I was bar mitzvahed at a Union for Reform Judaism temple or synagogue, and my rabbi worked for the congregation. He was under contract, and he was paid a salary and benefits. But there was accountability. And then our synagogue was accountable to the union for consistency in what was being taught in the religious school.

• 40:47Mayim Bialik?

  And you could challenge it. People could challenge it if they wanted to.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And if my rabbi would say to me, no, Rick, I want to ask you a question. And if I said, what rabbi? How, did you get lucky this week? How's your sex life? Let's talk about that. I would look at him and say, Rabbi, why are you asking me that? That's none of your business. So you need to ask yourself, what are the limits of what the group can ask me? Do I have a right to privacy? What are their boundaries? How does the indoctrination that I've gone through empower them and disempower me? Does it put me in a position

• 41:31Speaker 00

  where I cannot question authority? In my experience, for example, rabbis love questions. The more questions, the more they get excited and they enjoy it. And of course, we have ordination requirements in order to become a rabbi. And there's a process of accountability. Likewise, most churches have democratic governance and checks and balances. So do you belong to an authoritarian group where there are no checks and balances? And how do the beliefs that you've been indoctrinated to accept put you in a disadvantage, in an imbalance

• 42:15Speaker 00

  of power with the leadership? And how is that affecting your life?

• 42:19Mayim Bialik?

  The more complicated question, you know, is if religion consists of mediators, right, that get between you and God, or that help facilitate communication, you know, is God the ultimate leader that cannot be challenged, right? And I think that's sort of this place where a lot of rabbis, priests, ministers, right, can get in the way, because they can translate what they believe God wants. And since most of us don't actively have conversations with God about God's desires in a practical way, I mean, that's where the manipulation can happen, right?

• 42:59Speaker 00

  Yes and no. So if I'm in a situation with a group, like there's a, what we could call a Jewish cult, and it's called Lev T'Hor, translated, it is the pure ones, which was a group that was started by a man named Shlomo Helbrins, that's now dead. And I've been involved in helping families leave Lev T'Hor, working with children that were victims of Lev T'Hor. And in fact, I submitted a report for the Attorney General of Guatemala in the proceedings where 150 children were removed from a Lev T'Hor compound. And to

• 43:42Speaker 00

  give people a little background, Lev T'Hor members were drawn from Israel, the United States, and Canada. And Shlomo Helbrins originally was an Israeli who was not a rabbi, who actually came from the secular community, but then became involved in the Hasidic community, and then moved to New York, and had, he was a kind of Hebrew teacher. And then he developed a following, and he fled from the US to Canada, to Mexico, and then the group ended up in Guatemala after he died in Mexico.

• 44:23Mayim Bialik?

  What was the messaging?

• 44:25Speaker 00

  That what we follow is true Torah Judaism. We are living a life that is absolutely authentic to real, true Judaism. We dress, they've often been called extreme in their dress. The women will wear like burkas, covering themselves to the extreme. The men will wear very unusual outfits. Their dietary restrictions at times were very extreme. So the inference of the group was, we are more Orthodox than any of the Hasidah. And some of the people

• 45:09Speaker 00

  were taken from the Satmar's, from the Brezlo, and so on. So my point is, to get to this, when I sit down with the families, the young people that have left the group, or have been extracted from the group, my question is, how do these extreme claims of the group empower the leadership, disempower you, and keep you from thinking critically? And so the group was very socially isolated. There were no Jews outside of the group that could be considered equal at parity with the group. There was always something wrong with them.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  How did that empower the leadership that isolated the people from the rest of the Jewish community? So unlike typical Judaism, mainstream Orthodox Judaism, or Hasidic Judaism, Helbrins wasn't really following the Torah, the Talmud. So part of unwinding the control is taking it apart, looking at it, and I would at times work with rabbis from the Jewish community, and ask the question, is this really the Torah? Is this really the Talmud? Or is it something that is very extreme? It doesn't follow that tradition.

• 46:33Mayim Bialik?

  But if you have a leader that believes that they are talking to God, right? That's when, to me, this gets very complicated. Because how much do we want to believe that someone's got a direct line, right? And if they've got the direct line, I mean, that is the basis then for a perversion of all sorts of practices and beliefs.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  If what the leader says is not in the Torah, it's not halacha, it's not Jewish law, it isn't in the Talmud, then how can it be from Hashem, from God? Because if it isn't consistent with what God reveals in the Torah and the Talmud, then what is it? So I was once involved in an intervention to get a woman who was a devout Roman Catholic out of a weird group that believed that they were exorcising demons and freeing people

• 47:31Speaker 00

  from limbo, and ultimately from hell. And at one point, I got a Catholic priest on a speakerphone from New York, who was the head exorcist for the New York Diocese.

• 47:50Mayim Bialik?

  Yep, we know of him.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  Father James Labarre, may he rest in peace. He was a wonderful man. And he's on the speakerphone. This woman is a devout Catholic. And I'm saying, Father Labarre, according to this group's leader, they can deliver people from limbo through prayer. And he said, hmm, that's okay. And then I said, and also, they can pray and bring people out of hell. And Father Labar said, what? No, once they're in hell, they're in hell. They can't be delivered out by prayer. They've been judged.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  And I said, but, but Father, the leader says that he is receiving revelation from the Virgin Mary. How do you respond to that? And Father Labar said, I'll never forget it. He said, well, why would the Blessed Mother of Mary say things that were directly in contradiction to the beliefs of the church? I mean, the church and what Mary believed and what Jesus proclaimed are consistent. So when you have a leader that is what I would call isolating scripture out of content or is extra biblical, they're speaking things through revelation.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  The question to ask is, is that consistent with the religious traditions that they claim they represent? And if it isn't, what does that mean? And the next question, if it isn't and it empowers them and gives them control over me, isn't that a self-serving device? And shouldn't I really question that?

• 49:33Mayim Bialik?

  When you're in a cult, when you're in this kind of tornado, right? I mean, I think this is the challenge that you have with deprogramming. You know, the entire belief system about how information is even passed down shifts. And, you know, the example I'm thinking of is in Trust Me, The False Prophet, which is about Sam Bateman and the, you know, the infiltration, right? Of this very, very extreme outside of LDS, you know, community. The notion that these prophets were able to communicate was that that was the truth

• 50:16Mayim Bialik?

  and I've got the new truth, right? That may have been what Jesus said at that time, but I have received, right? A series of fill in the blank revelations, visions, whatever it is. The, the question that I have with every cult that I have ever heard about, does the person who's the leader actually believe this? Meaning, is this the delusion? Is this, you know, what we would say, oh, this is a, a mental illness. This is a psychosis. This is a, a sociopathy, right? Do they truly believe it in all of their soul and being?

• 50:56Mayim Bialik?

  Or, you know, I think with the NXIVM, you know, kind of situation, it almost felt like, is this a part that's being played? Is there a way that you can help us understand what the difference is between someone who truly believes it? And even though there may be evil and harm done, they, they honestly believe that this is the path? Or I've got the ability to get people to do whatever I want. I can have sex with whoever I want. You see this a lot with, you know, cults from yogic practices and traditions, you know? How much of like, how do we know if it's true? Can you tell if it's true?

• 51:33Speaker 00

  Margaret Singer was a clinical psychologist. She wrote the book Cults in Our Midst. She worked in recovery with over a thousand former cult members. And I once said to her, Margaret, do you think that David Koresh is a psychopath? And she said, Rick, they're all psychopaths. And so many, many cult leaders, Charles Manson, David Koresh, and I believe Keith Renary, are Shlomo Helbrun's psychopaths. And in the case of Samuel Bateman and Shlomo Helbrun's, pedophiles who sexually abuse children. And, and what, what is their motivation?

• 52:18Speaker 00

  They're deeply disturbed personalities, frequently described as malignant narcissists. They, they, they don't have a sense of right or wrong like you or me. Their attitude is what's right is what's right for me. And what's bad or wrong is what doesn't serve my purpose. And I think many of them are very much aware that they're deceiving people, that they're lying, but they believe in the philosophy, the ends justify the means. And the end is I get what I want. And what you see in groups, and they vary, let, let me just point out that not all destructive

• 53:03Speaker 00

  cults are equally destructive. So there are some that are much more destructive than others. The Bateman group is an example of one of the most destructive. And what, what you see in the Bateman group is the extreme isolation that was necessary in order to, to preclude any other thought, any other consideration of what was going on. And what, what the psychologist who managed to permeate the group did was she was able to percolate and, and feed into alternative perspectives, ideas. And this is why I frequently will recommend to people who are troubled and they're in

• 53:48Speaker 00

  a particular group and they're saying, gee, I'm, I'm kind of confused. I don't know what to think. I've seen some things that bother me. Unplug, unplug from the group because so many of these groups are dependent upon you constantly being recharged by group indoctrination, by being plugged in, by being isolated in the group. So if you can get away from the group, you can then think independently, bounce things off people that are outside the group that have no agenda. And, and then you can think more freely.

• 54:27Mayim Bialik?

  That's kind of what happened. And, you know, the reason that I think also, you know, why Trust Me, The False Prophet was such a, you know, powerful depiction is, you know, the, it's very, very difficult to infiltrate these kinds of groups because part of the control is to create a distrust of the outside world, right? I mean, it's like the best way, right? I mean, best in quotes. It's the, the best way to do it, which makes, you know, anyone kind of penetrating that circle, you know, an immediate threat. I think what's, what's also, you know, what really touched me about that story, and it is more recent, which is why I'm, I'm bringing it up. It was one mother who said, something's not right, right?

• 55:11Mayim Bialik?

  Like something snapped her out of this trance. And it was like a maternal instinct, right? That said, like, something is not right with my kid, you know, in this situation.

• 55:26Mayim Bialik?

  We're going to hit pause here on our conversation with Rick Allen Ross. There is so much more coming up in part two. The warning signs of abusive and controlling relationships, how to know if you're dating a narcissist, and how many psychological mechanisms that are found in cults appear in everyday life, in our workplaces, in our conversations about UAPs? How are intelligent people becoming trapped in systems that erode independent thinking? All that and more in part two of our conversation with Rick Allen Ross, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.