Re-Air: Embrace Your Eccentricities & A Petri Dish of Creativity | Rainn Wilson

This week we’re revisiting an episode from 2021 with Rainn Wilson, best known as Dwight Schrute from the beloved series The Office. Rainn holds a special place here at MBB for a couple of reasons: he was our very first in-person guest and one of our first spiritual guests. In this episode he discusses his nerdy childhood, growing up with social misfit parents, and the evolution that therapy has provided to every area of his life. Rainn describes growing up in a petri dish of dysfunction, feeling unloved and alienated as a child, and how all of this led to anxiety, depression, panic attacks, and addiction issues. He learned early on in his acting career to embrace playing the alienated misfit, and opens up about his meditation process and the tools his faith gave him to find his own path and identity. Mayim and Rainn bond over being band geeks and chess club members, and all of the expectations, insecurities, and limitations that come with being a sitcom character actor. They examine the similarities between a recovery journey and spiritual journey, the benefits of going to AA even if you’re not an alcoholic, and the reasons that some people are resistant to therapy. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to https://www.quince.com/breakdown for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Upgrade your kitchen with Our Place today. Visit fromourplace.com/BREAK http://fromourplace.com/BREAK and use code BREAK for 10% off sitewide. Go to https://helixsleep.com/breakdown to receive 27% off sitewide. Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our Breakdown. Today, we're going to revisit an episode that we did with Rain Wilson. You most likely know him from his iconic role as Dwight on The Office. We're huge fans of Rain here at Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, not because he was our very first in-person guest of all time after the COVID lockdown, but he's someone that we would consider one of our earliest spiritual guests. He talked about his meditation process at a time when I really knew very little about meditation. He talks about the tools that his faith have given him in finding his path and identity, especially in the midst of massive fame, and also the similarities between recovery as a journey and spirituality as a journey.

• 0:50Jonathan Cohen?

  Rain also discusses his nerdy childhood and how he eventually embraced that side of himself to channel acting roles as a misfit and someone who didn't fit in. And he also discusses the evolution that therapy has provided to every area of his life.

• 1:07Mayim Bialik?

  It's really a beautiful conversation. And also, since Rain was last on Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, he's launched his own mental health and spirituality podcast, which we highly recommend. It's called Soul Boom with Rain Wilson. It digs deep into life's purpose, our human experiments as spiritual beings, and spiritual tools for modern problems. It also gets ridiculously silly. It can border on chaotic. He sits down with actors, comedians, psychologists, scientists, spiritual teachers, and everything in between to talk about life, meaning, and in some cases, idiocy. The show is really equal parts funny, it's curious, it's irreverent, it's thoughtful. And Rain and his guests find levity in really

• 1:48Mayim Bialik?

  the biggest issues through comedic, psychological, scientific, and spiritual perspectives. If you enjoy the kind of conversations that Rain and I have had together, that Soul Boom is definitely the show for you. Watch or listen to new episodes of Soul Boom with Rain Wilson on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. You are going to love it.

• 2:08Jonathan Cohen?

  And remember, check out Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack to join the growing Breaker community and get access to ad-free episodes and bonus content you cannot get anywhere else.

• 2:19Mayim Bialik?

  And now, we hope you enjoy our look back at the conversation we had with Rain Wilson. Break it down. I know you from Six Feet Under, and I was an enormous fan

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31Mayim Bialik?

  of that show and of you. And I know that you're on this extremely, you were on an extremely popular, important show that really changed the face of a lot of television. I'm just, I'm not a watcher of most

• 2:45Jonathan Cohen?

  She's a little behind in her pop culture.

• 2:47Mayim Bialik?

  Television.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 2:48Mayim Bialik?

  But I'm, but I'm allowed to still be an enormous fan of yours. I've seen clips. I know what you do and how funny

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Do you want to just take like 21 minutes and 30 seconds right now, just watch an episode?

• 3:00Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 3:01Jonathan Cohen?

  Just get it over with.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02Jonathan Cohen?

  Get over that home.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  We could just, in fact, that would be a great podcast, is watching The Office with Mayim Bialik, 200 episodes.

• 3:10Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I've also never seen Gilmore Girls. I've never seen Friends.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15Mayim Bialik?

  There, I've never also seen Top Gun, which I'm told is a must see.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  I've never seen Top Gun.

• 3:19Mayim Bialik?

  We could watch it together.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 3:21Mayim Bialik?

  Anyway.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  It's a new podcast. Rain and Mayim watch movies they haven't seen together.

• 3:27Mayim Bialik?

  I should also say that in 2009, you founded Soul Pancake. You created a space where people from all walks of life discuss and question what it means to be human. And I got to be part, a little bit, of the world of yours outside of acting.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:41Mayim Bialik?

  When I was on Metaphysical Milkshake with you and Reza Aslan, and we talked, I mean, you talk about some very, very deep things. And we talked all about, do we still need religion?

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:53Mayim Bialik?

  Just that little thing.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Just a tiny little topic. Yeah, yeah.

• 3:57Mayim Bialik?

  We're very excited to have you here, and welcome.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Thank you. So it's a mockumentary. So it's like a documentary, but it's pretend comedy about a workplace.

• 4:07Mayim Bialik?

  And there's like funny jump cuts. It's like a paper company?

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, funny jump cuts. It's not really how I, I would not, I would go there as like number 13 of the list of things that it is, but okay, all right.

• 4:22Mayim Bialik?

  It's irreverent, satirical, based on a British show?

• 4:26Speaker 02

  It's based on a British show. Yeah, like your new show.

• 4:28Mayim Bialik?

  And yes, that's true.

• 4:31Jonathan Cohen?

  With direct to address.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  Yep, talking to the cam, awareness of the cameras.

• 4:35Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, right. Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Right?

• 4:36Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Because they're aware there's a documentary crew there. Yeah, okay. Well, we'll explain later. Anyway.

• 4:41Mayim Bialik?

  We're sorry, we're kind of freaked out because we've literally never had someone here. I don't know if we're funny in person with people.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  You're doing great so far.

• 4:49Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  I think this is good.

• 4:51Jonathan Cohen?

  Speaking of which,

• 4:52Mayim Bialik?

  What?

• 4:53Jonathan Cohen?

  Rain has my desk, which comes with a whole host of responsibilities.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, let's talk me through this.

• 4:58Mayim Bialik?

  So Rain, Rain, because you're sitting at Jonathan's desk, you have a picture of me looking at you adoringly.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 5:06Mayim Bialik?

  Because I like Jonathan to remember what, what I, what I look like when I look at him adoringly.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Oh, that's very sweet.

• 5:13Mayim Bialik?

  You have some Canadian flags.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Why do you, how did you get a couple bobblehead?

• 5:19Mayim Bialik?

  So we got that as a gift, and it came in the mail with no note. So we're thinking, is this from a fan who shows too much interest in us? And it turns out it's from our, it's from Rabbit Grin. It's from our, our producing team, and they just didn't include a note. But now they thought that maybe if we hated it, they would say, we don't know where that's

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Who's the 3D, 3D dog?

• 5:42Jonathan Cohen?

  So she's come up in episodes past. That's Jazz the Dog, encased in glass.

• 5:47Mayim Bialik?

  This is Jonathan's most beloved pet.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  That's so macabre.

• 5:51Jonathan Cohen?

  It is strange. But I think the podcast listeners should know that there are four signs that Mayim printed in the early days of the podcast.

• 5:59Mayim Bialik?

  I believe they're on plastic knives.

• 6:00Jonathan Cohen?

  Plastic knives, and that one, which says

• 6:03Speaker 02

  This makes no sense. Confidential voice? What does that mean?

• 6:05Mayim Bialik?

  It does. You clearly have never had vocal cord issues. I'm a person who has a history of vocal cord issues, and I had vocal cord surgery about two years ago.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:12Mayim Bialik?

  This is the voice that the speech pathologist told me I have to use.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  So you have to use like this. You have to have a gentle confidential voice.

• 6:20Mayim Bialik?

  Well, Kathleen Turner.

• 6:21Jonathan Cohen?

  So that's when she's

• 6:22Mayim Bialik?

  When I'm talking.

• 6:22Jonathan Cohen?

  ramping it up too much.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I have what to say. What does that mean?

• 6:25Jonathan Cohen?

  That's in the early days of the podcast when she wouldn't let me speak.

• 6:28Mayim Bialik?

  That is a Yiddishism, meaning that is, that's an expression that is typically

• 6:33Speaker 02

  I have what to say?

• 6:35Mayim Bialik?

  Exactly. It's a Yiddishism.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:37Mayim Bialik?

  It, it

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Oi!

• 6:39Mayim Bialik?

  Also that.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  You're doing great.

• 6:41Mayim Bialik?

  That's just because sometimes I need to be told.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Oh, that's nice. And slow down.

• 6:45Mayim Bialik?

  I need to be also told that.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Okay, all right, good.

• 6:48Jonathan Cohen?

  Now you know the lay of the land.

• 6:50Mayim Bialik?

  You don't have to use this.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  All right, okay. No, that's great. This is wonderful.

• 6:53Mayim Bialik?

  So our podcast focuses on all things mental health.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:58Mayim Bialik?

  And mental wellness. You have spoken a bit about a bit of your journey. Just for your general information, this is not a show where we bring people on to like, tell us how they fix themselves. You know, we're not

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:11Mayim Bialik?

  Unless you, unless you have that formula, I would like to share.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  I'm all better. I'm all completely better. Can't you tell? I'm so well adjusted.

• 7:19Mayim Bialik?

  You know, you do come from an interesting background, and we talk a lot about combination of genetics and environment, you know, which is kind of the most basic way to talk about, you know, an approach to how we get the way that we are. But I think part of my interest also in speaking to you is, you know, as a character actor, which is what I'm called, I don't know if you like that term.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  I love being called character actor.

• 7:41Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, great. So we're both

• 7:41Speaker 02

  But

• 7:42Mayim Bialik?

  But

• 7:42Speaker 02

  It's, in Hollywood, it's so limiting because back in the day, you could be a character actor that was playing incredible lead, juicy, amazing roles. And now, character actor, you're, you're relegated to like the sixth lead or something like that.

• 7:57Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  But you have a lead in a show. Congratulations on that.

• 8:00Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  For, on behalf of all character actors.

• 8:02Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I appreciate that.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  It's wonderful.

• 8:04Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you. And I think it's something, you know, I started acting when I was 11, and back then, it was 1986. And I went out for roles, I kid you not, that said, submit all ethnicities, because there was one kind of actor that could have a lead. And it was not, not this face, not this voice, not this body type, like, different. And so I was kind of like grouped with what, what was called, submit all ethnicities. And I did, I started getting parts as, you know, a character actor. But I think that notion really never left me that like, I'm not like them, you know? There's still this notion for me, you know, as a grown up, that really does tap into a lot of the insecurity that

• 8:46Mayim Bialik?

  I had, even before I started acting, you know? You're an unusual adult. Your, your sense of humor, your sense of self, the way you hold yourself. What were you like as a small person? What was Tiny Rain like?

• 8:56Speaker 02

  I've never been introduced as you're an unusual person. You're, you're an unusual person. Tell us, tell us how you got there.

• 9:05Mayim Bialik?

  This was a terrible idea to have a guest in person. This interview is over.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  This is great. No, it is. I am an unusual person and I own it and it is absolutely very true. Yeah, um, where do I start? I mean, there's so much to say about that. I grew up in a very weird family. Growing up in that family was extremely alienating and disjointed. And I remember my, my parents were so awed and awkward and such social misfits that I didn't learn kind of regular social cues growing up. So I didn't, I didn't learn how to just be in the world, be comfortable in the world.

• 9:41Mayim Bialik?

  Were they introverted? Were they extroverted? Were they, uh, what, what, what kind of lack of cues were you getting? Meaning some, some people have parents who are very cloistered and they never leave the house. And so they're not getting really any information about interaction with the outside world.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Well, what does it, what does it say? What did Tolstoy say? That famous quote of like, every happy family is the same and every, uh, unhappy family is completely different? Like, so it's hard to type what my parents were like. So, um, you know, first of all, my mom, uh, and dad split up when I was two. My mom left because she went to go have, uh, an affair with the theater director. And then she moved into a house and raised, uh, a pet goat. And she lived on communes and she, so she, so that was my mom. I didn't really see her until I was about 15.

• 10:30Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Okay. So my dad, he grew up under tremendous abuse. I mean, his is one of the most horrific childhoods you could ever possibly imagine. And he kind of just, as a nine-year-old, was raising his seven-year-old sister as his dad took off on drunken sprees across Europe. And so he was just awkward in that way. And then my stepmom, who kind of raised me, she was just awkward and odd too. Introverted, artistic, bohemian, offbeat in every conceivable way. But I remember, I mean, there's so much to unpack around it. And I don't want this thing to be just an extended therapy session. But I will say that when I was in junior

• 11:11Speaker 02

  high and high school, I would watch kids to see how normal kids related to each other. So I'd be like in the lunchroom in junior high and I'd see like Steve go over to Mike and be like, hey, Mike, how's it going, brother? Have a good weekend? And like hit him with his elbow, let's say. And then, so I would, I would take mental notes like, oh, okay. That's a, hey, what a, what a cool, like, uh, what is it? Relaxed, social interaction between two bros, between two dudes. Let me try that. So I'd go up to, you know, uh, John and be like, hey, John, how'd it go this weekend, brother? And hit and, and try

• 11:53Speaker 02

  and reenact it, obviously failing miserably. So I felt a little bit like an alien in suburban Seattle that was like observing humans to see like this, what do homo sapiens do and how do I fit in? It was almost like Mork and Mindy or Third Rock from the Sun, kind of literally an alien in, in a human environment.

• 12:12Mayim Bialik?

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• 13:39Mayim Bialik?

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• 14:22Mayim Bialik?

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• 14:49Mayim Bialik?

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• 16:16Mayim Bialik?

  hair and skin the upgrade they deserve so you can feel confident and refreshed. Did you have siblings?

• 16:23Speaker 02

  No, only child.

• 16:24Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:25Mayim Bialik?

  That's also a lot.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  And, and then my parents were also members of the Bahai faith. So Bahai, only child, and they didn't love each other. So that was also, you know, weird. So it was this weird, it's a Petri dish for total dysfunction.

• 16:41Mayim Bialik?

  Mm-hmm. You went to public school?

• 16:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:43Mayim Bialik?

  There's not schooling as part of the Bahai faith, correct?

• 16:46Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah.

• 16:47Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  No, I just went to public school.

• 16:48Mayim Bialik?

  So you went to public school, you played the clarinet and the bassoon?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:52Mayim Bialik?

  Let's talk about it. I was a trumpet player.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 16:54Mayim Bialik?

  And I was in band.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Sexy, yeah.

• 16:55Mayim Bialik?

  Well, you know, not as sexy as the bassoon.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 16:58Mayim Bialik?

  But let's talk about the bassoon. Did you start, did you start with clarinet?

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So recorder, everyone played the recorder, you know, green sleeves.

• 17:08Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  And then, um, moved to clarinet.

• 17:10Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  And, um,

• 17:12Mayim Bialik?

  No oboe in the middle?

• 17:14Speaker 02

  No oboe in the middle. That sounds, that sounds dirty, doesn't it?

• 17:16Mayim Bialik?

  Straight to bassoon.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  You want to play oboe in the middle?

• 17:19Mayim Bialik?

  Let's go straight to bassoon.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  So I want, I played a little bit of saxophone and I wanted to play saxophone and I went to my junior high.

• 17:28Mayim Bialik?

  You're like, this reed is too big. Smaller reed, please.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  But I wanted to play it in my, in the, in the band teacher, who was actually, his name was John Law. John Law, Kellogg Middle School in Seattle, said, oh, we've got too many sax players. I mean, the sax players were cool. They, they had Hawaiian shirts and they'd wear sunglasses and they'd, they'd do the thing kind of like Bill Clinton did.

• 17:48Mayim Bialik?

  On the second dance, right.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Like, you know, they'd kind of sway back and forth. And I wanted to be part of that group so much. Again, I wanted to fit in in that row of saxophone players, you know? And finally I'd be able to fit in. And he's like, oh, but you know what?

• 18:01Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, God.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  There is an instrument.

• 18:03Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  That is so cool. And it's so, it's really interesting and awesome and people are going to love it. And it sounds amazing. And it's called the bassoon. And, and I, I was just hooked in. I was like, okay. You know, I had visions of being like people just admiring me with me and my beautiful bassoon, you know?

• 18:25Mayim Bialik?

  It like comes in a million and a half pieces too.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  You have to, it, it takes 20 minutes to assemble.

• 18:30Mayim Bialik?

  That's right. It's like a very, it's the instrument for people who need to show up early and stay late.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Exactly. But you're not even bringing in the whole, the reed thing. You have to pre-soak the reeds. You have to, you have to carve the reeds. You have to make the reeds. You have to, uh, adjust the reeds.

• 18:49Mayim Bialik?

  They always break.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  They're breaking. You've got to have backup reeds and a little vials of water to soak the reeds.

• 18:56Mayim Bialik?

  So Jonathan, you clearly were not in orchestra.

• 18:58Jonathan Cohen?

  I wasn't in band, no.

• 19:00Mayim Bialik?

  Cause there's like a very-

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, he has a blank stare on his face.

• 19:03Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm the third child and after the first two, my parents were like, no, we don't need to put you in music. It's too much trouble for us.

• 19:09Mayim Bialik?

  Just go play hockey and see what breaks.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 19:12Mayim Bialik?

  I actually wanted to play trombone. And my arms were not long enough. True story.

• 19:16Jonathan Cohen?

  Still aren't.

• 19:18Mayim Bialik?

  So I ended up playing the trumpet and I was in jazz band, actually, for, um, for all of middle school.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 19:24Mayim Bialik?

  We had an unbelievable, we had one of those music teachers who like, she won awards and like, she, you know, she-

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:30Mayim Bialik?

  Her name was Miss Gardaia and then she married a man whose last name was Matsumune. And then she was Miss Gardaia Matsumune.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. That's mouthful.

• 19:37Mayim Bialik?

  So, yeah. But she was, she was unbelievable. And so we had full orchestra and, um, and then I was also in jazz band, which was humiliating for a lot of reasons. I was one of the only girls-

• 19:45Speaker 02

  We should duet.

• 19:46Mayim Bialik?

  Playing trumpet. Yes.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Do you still have a trumpet?

• 19:48Mayim Bialik?

  Just, I, you know, I finally just parted with my trumpet. I do play piano, which was my first instrument and I play bass guitar. This is a keyboard that I'm gesturing to.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:00Mayim Bialik?

  Did you have friends? What was your kind of social life like?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  I did have friends, yes.

• 20:06Mayim Bialik?

  Were they also misfitting?

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, um, you know, suburban Seattle, late seventies, early eighties. As nerdy as you'd ever want to possibly imagine human beings. And, and I'm really not, it's not an exaggeration. I mean, it's walking home from school with, with my bassoon, my pimply face. I was about 143 pounds and still six foot two. And Dungeons and Dragons all weekend long.

• 20:36Mayim Bialik?

  Oh.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  I was on Model United Nations. I was in the ceramics club, the computer club. Sometimes all of these would be at the same time. So, yeah, and it was, but it was, you know, it was really different back then. It was like, there was something really wonderful about that. Like, I'm really grateful because we were so nerdy that I never even worried about fitting in. I'm never gonna be liked. I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna be, I'm never gonna fit in. It wasn't like nerds today where they're, they're kind of revered and like, oh, gamers are cool. And, you know, comic book readers are cool and, you know, nerdy filmmakers are cool. It was, you were, you were ostracized and cast out and you got the shit beat out of you.

• 21:19Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I, I went to, um, I went to a, an absurd middle school, which was essentially a academic prep school. And we were all expected to really be like, finishing our high school requirements by the seventh grade. And it was just one of these like, you know, we were all expected to go to Ivy Leagues. And, you know, we had a portion of the quad that was ours and we weren't, we could not leave that because of what would happen if you did. And I was in chess club. I mean, like-

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was on the chess team.

• 21:45Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I was in chess club and, I mean, I have many, many stories. And, you know, I was also on television for part of this time, you know? I started, um, on Blossom when I was 14 and I was, yeah, in ninth grade. It didn't help, you know? People like, oh, is that, because I wasn't like a hammy, like, I love being famous kind of kid. I was very embarrassed just to exist. You know, I just wanted to like, be swallowed into the earth. Like, I really, that, you know, I was like an accidental, successful person as a teenager. Uh, I, I really do, I, I relate to that notion, you know, also of like, you know, finding a niche of, of comfort, but still kind of wishing that it wasn't the comfortable place. You know?

• 22:28Mayim Bialik?

  I really, there was a hierarchy even among, you know, this, this group of academic kids. And a lot of that has stayed with me, you know? Girls in particular had a very hard time. I never really clicked well with girls.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Girls aren't interested in chess and trumpets?

• 22:45Speaker 02

  And neuroscience?

• 22:48Mayim Bialik?

  And boxing and sports cars. Where I kind of, and I wanted to kind of ask you about high school reign because, you know, when I found Salinger and when I found Sartre and when I found Camus, I, I mean, there was absolutely a level of, of pretension to it. Like, you know, I had like, I had pen pals and we would write with ink that we dipped. You know, we had like a quill and we would write with glass pens and we would go to the antique markets. And it was, yeah, we were, and like for purses, we used vintage medicine case. Like, I was that girl. I was the girl with like the vintage medicine case as my purse and like, and besides the kind of superficial aspects, you know, for me, there was a deep, you know, a deep comfort that I found in intellectualism.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:30Mayim Bialik?

  And not for the purpose of thinking I'm better than other people. It wasn't like that. It was like, there are people who speak a language that's very familiar to me and they wrote books about it many, many decades ago. And so it kind of became a big part of my, my kind of high school experience and identity. And obviously being on television at that time and growing up in the public, I like, very, very complicated and confusing. Um, and I also came from a very complicated home. That, you know, in many ways looked really good. And there was a lot of, there was a lot of darkness. You know, I, I come from a home, uh, with a tremendous amount of, of mental illness and, you know, parents who did the best they could, but hurt people hurt, as I'm sure you can, you know, relate to.

• 24:13Mayim Bialik?

  There was also this tremendous sense of needing to belong anywhere, you know, except the place that I really had to be. So I'm, I'm curious, you know, for you, as you kind of got into high school, did you, did you find performance then? Did it come later? You know, where was a place that you found sort of, some sort of comfort?

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, just going back a little bit, you know, my gratitude for the, the nerdy times at school was that I could read hundreds of science fiction books, which I spent my adolescent doing. And I spent countless hours playing Dungeons and Dragons. I spent hours playing chess. But then also my nerdy friends and I were comedy geeks. So we were watching all the early Saturday Night Lives and Staying Up Together and, and discovering SCTV and, and Monty Python and memorizing Monty Python scenes. So it was this little, again, I use the Petri dish analogy for my fucked up family, but, um, the Petri dish of kind of that, kind of weird little creativity that we found in our little corner of, of suburban Seattle.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  So, but yeah, as I, so I had a transformational moment happen when, um, uh, I said my, my parents were members of the Baha'i faith. And when I was 16, we moved across the country. We moved from Seattle. My parents were extremely unhappy, fighting all the time. And we moved across the country to, together though, um, unfortunately, to, uh, Willmet, Illinois, north of Chicago, because that's where the Baha'i, uh, temple is. The Baha'i House of Worship on, uh, for those who have seen it, it's this beautiful structure on Sheridan Road, right on the lake, north of Chicago. And the Baha'i National Center is close nearby. My dad got a job at the National Baha'i Center, kind of working in the, in the church offices, essentially.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  But that area of Chicago is extremely wealthy. And I was, we were very poor, even in Seattle. We drove a Ford Pinto and had a 900 square foot house. And so then we moved, literally it was like being in a John Hughes movie. Like, we moved to the wealthiest suburb, one of the wealthiest suburbs in America. And we stayed in the only, we lived in the only apartment building that was in the locus, the circumference of that school district, a little two bedroom apartment. And all of a sudden I was going to this extremely wealthy high school. Don't get me started on the educational system in America and how being based on property taxes, how screwed up that makes everything. But it had an incredible arts program and a very famous theater program. And it was kind of infamous.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Rock Hudson and had gone there and I don't know, Anne Margaret and lots of famous actors had, had gone through this program and people that had, were members of Steppenwolf and, and whatnot. And so I had always harbored this secret desire to be an actor, even as nerdy as I was. And so I auditioned and I got in an, an acting class. And I remember the first week of this acting class at this new school, one of the, I, I tried to re-identify myself. When I went to this new school, I was also into kind of punk rock and stuff. So I started wearing, you know, Black Flag t-shirts and Clash t-shirts and ripped jeans and skinny ties and stuff like that. So it was, again, very John Hughesy.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  And, uh, in the first week of, of school, they had an exercise called, uh, uh, private and public. So you're, you're supposed to be like in your room, but in front of an audience, doing what you do in your room, right? And I put on an Elvis Costello song and was like dancing around with my fake cat and just going crazy. And, and it got this rousing applause and people were screaming and laughing. And, and I finished it and I was the new kid and all of these really cute girls came up and were like, you're so funny. And they were like, touching me on the shoulders and like, you're so funny. You should sit at our lunch table. My name's blah, blah, blah. My name's blah, blah. Come sit with us and hang out.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  And, and all of a sudden I was like, in my head, it was just, there was this gong of clarity. Gong, like, you are not going to go on the chess team. You're not gonna play bassoon anymore. You're, you're not gonna, this is it. You know what I mean? Which is cute and funny and also a little bit sad that I would just completely turn directions. Like, oh, I have some skill here in acting, but it allowed me to, to fit in. All of a sudden, I was like socially desired in some way, shape or form. But that, that desire to fit in and being alienated from fitting in is a thread that runs through my life as, as well as other, you know, mental health issues. But that has, I've embraced it as an actor.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  I just feel like this is who I am. And I kind of learned that early on in my career, that- I'm not gonna pretend to be something that I'm not. And I'm just, I'm gonna play misfits. That's, that's who I am. I'm, I'm gonna play alienated misfits. And I'm gonna be damn good at it. And, you know, so be it.

• 29:16Mayim Bialik?

  This is an odd question, which I don't think I've ever asked anyone in my life.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  I will not take my shirt off.

• 29:22Mayim Bialik?

  No. I was on a show called The Big Bang Theory.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:25Mayim Bialik?

  And I'm curious if you, if you watched that show.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've seen, I've seen many episodes of that show, yeah.

• 29:31Mayim Bialik?

  Cause you know, our show was, uh, you know, about the, the kind of people who were in Chess Club and,

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:38Mayim Bialik?

  you know, played D and D and we had episodes around D and D. You know, seeing characters also who were exceptionally unusual as the norm, you know, really felt comforting to me.

• 29:48Jonathan Cohen?

  I have never heard you ask anyone if they've watched.

• 29:50Mayim Bialik?

  I don't think I've asked anyone in my life if I've ever.

• 29:52Jonathan Cohen?

  I usually hide the fact that you were on that show.

• 29:54Mayim Bialik?

  I don't even like to talk about it. I don't talk about it.

• 29:56Jonathan Cohen?

  You don't talk about it.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  The show was kind of everywhere.

• 30:00Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, but people say that about The Office. Now I feel like such a dolt.

• 30:04Jonathan Cohen?

  But that 10 years also was sort of the turning point in the zeitgeist of popularizing the, the nerd and, and making the nerd cool or the quote unquote nerd.

• 30:13Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, but, and I would get asked that a lot. And as someone who does like, who has played D and D and like, who was on Chess Club and you know.

• 30:20Jonathan Cohen?

  You still play D and D?

• 30:21Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, but I haven't had a campaign right now, but yeah, okay. No, but I like to point out that like, it's, it's fun to have photo shoots of like nerd chic and you know, like the sexy scientist, like with her shirt unbuttoned and her glasses, like that's not, that's not the reality of, you know, what.

• 30:36Jonathan Cohen?

  It's not every lab you've ever met.

• 30:38Mayim Bialik?

  No, and just like you're, people still don't like you if you're weird. And I think.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  I have what to say?

• 30:47Jonathan Cohen?

  It's the best use of that card so far.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Listen.

• 30:49Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  The thing that pisses me off is all the people claiming their nerd cred, like Charlize Theron, like.

• 30:57Mayim Bialik?

  I love this.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  I was so nerdy in high school and no one like talked to me and I was so nerd. It's like, can I swear on this?

• 31:06Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Fuck you. Fuck you. As someone who got the shit beat out of him and mocked and humiliated, um, they, I, when our chess team, our chess team won the state tournament and I was, I was fifth board. And they created a giant banner in the high school. Congratulations chess on winning state. And we all walked in one morning, me and my chess nerdy friends, we were like, oh my God, that's so great. And they were waiting and they saw us and they started laughing at us. They made it as a joke. The, the glee club, pep club made it as a joke. So fuck you Charlize Theron. And, and Jennifer Aniston and everyone is like, oh, we're so, give me a fucking break. You have no idea.

• 31:52Mayim Bialik?

  My favorite, my favorite is when they ask people like, were you a geek? Or like, I was a theater geek. That's totally different.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Totally different.

• 32:02Mayim Bialik?

  Being a theater geek is very different.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Very different.

• 32:05Mayim Bialik?

  Than having your nickname be weirded out.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 32:09Mayim Bialik?

  Very, very different.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  You know, it's, we can joke about nerd-dom, but under, if you just dig a little bit deeper, it was a kid who'd never felt like he would fit in. And then you dig a little bit deeper and it's a kid who never felt like he was really loved. And, um, and then a kid who didn't love himself. And living in a, in a home with a loveless marriage where we would pretend to be a family. We would have meatloaf for dinner and watch MASH on TV, but there wasn't actual love there. The anxiety and depression that that created in me, while it's like, oh, it's goofy. I read, I was reading science, I read 200 science fiction books or 500 or however many. Yeah, that's, it's funny to joke about, but in reality, it was because I was lonely and depressed and sitting in my room

• 32:55Speaker 02

  and not socializing and just reading science fiction books. Thank God there weren't screens, cause I would have just been looking at porn or, or, or whatever in, on, on thumbing through.

• 33:05Mayim Bialik?

  I would not have lasted in school if social media had existed with the level of fear and anxiety that I experienced, especially from other girls.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. That dysfunction, um, you know, led to me being really miserable in my twenties, you know, because then I was suffering from acute anxiety disorder. I would have panic attacks all the time and, you know, suffered from depression and addiction issues. And all of these things stemming from this really like seemingly happy, but, but terribly unhappy, alienated childhood.

• 33:38Mayim Bialik?

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• 34:23Mayim Bialik?

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• 35:08Mayim Bialik?

  It's completely risk-free with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Check the link in today's episode description to get started. I just made a movie and.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Congratulations.

• 35:17Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you. And I keep telling my mother it's not an autobiography because it's not.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  It's about a 14-year-old girl on a sitcom.

• 35:24Mayim Bialik?

  No, no. You know, one thing that I, I'm, I'm curious about, and, and you know, my parents were together for 53 years and my father, of blessed memory, died six years ago. And like, this was, you know, literally like my mother's other half, you know, they met as teenagers. They kind of grew up together. They, they both lived at home until they lived with each other and, you know, fell into a lot of kind of old country. They were both first generation Americans and fell into a lot of kind of, you know, old country sort of patterns. Like I never saw my father cook or clean or like go to the supermarket, but like she also, she never pumped gas. Like, you know, like he did, they had a very old fashioned relationship and they were deeply madly and, you know, sweetly, codependently, you know, attached at the hip.

• 36:05Mayim Bialik?

  But there was, there was a lot of, um, times where I thought it might be better, maybe if we didn't all live together, you know? I think about that in terms of, you know, the impact that it has on a young person in terms of how you structure not only your own kind of self-worth and your concept of feeling loved or worthy or, or like there's space for you, you know? But I also do know that it, it has and does impact my interactions with other people in terms of intimacy. And I don't just mean, first of all, I'm not just talking about like sex. I just mean even friendships, you know? The way that I organize the world is based on a very specific model that, you know,

• 36:50Mayim Bialik?

  from a neuroscience perspective, is not something you can snap out of easily, you know? For me, I, um, I started going to therapy when I was about 17 and, you know, to be honest, I've never really left. I'm one of those people who believes in, in psychotherapy and I've been with my current therapist, you know, for 20 years. It's very hard to admit that, but it's true.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:10Mayim Bialik?

  You know, for me, I, I cannot function without therapy. I can't, I can't and I don't. But I am curious about sort of when you think about kind of growing up without, without love like that, what were the steps that you took or continue to take to build up that particular aspect of your life? Cause it's a very specific way that you describe, you know, a kind of loveless marriage and, um, I'm curious if there, you know, if there's been a process of therapy, is it a process of, is, is it your faith? You know, was it meeting the person that you chose to build a life with?

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, great. Uh, thank you for sharing that and a great, uh, question. Yeah, I have been in therapy. Um, I've had the same therapist for 10 years and I had another therapist for 10 years before that. I started therapy when I was incredibly depressed when I was about 23, 24 years old and, um, I was doing a lot of drugs and I couldn't get out of bed in the morning and I fortunately, I was still under the, covered under the NYU plan, so I paid like $5 to go to therapist and, and that got me started on that journey. And I, and I think that, I agree with you 100%. It's so weird how people are resistant to therapy. Like you'll talk to a couple that's in trouble, like, oh, he doesn't want to go to therapy.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  It's like, or she doesn't want to go. Why don't you go to therapy? Oh, I tried therapy. I don't like, like, like, why would you not spend 50 minutes in a week? Here's a week, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Why would you not take 50 of these 60 second minutes? 50 of them, that's all, to, to deepen yourself, to learn how to break patterns, to, to process trauma, to examine your life, your feelings, your emotions, your soul, to like, why would you not make that investment? And, and it is, sometimes it's expensive, but there's cheap therapy. You could absolutely find, now it's online, which is great.

• 39:04Jonathan Cohen?

  This segment is brought to you by BetterHelp.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that process has been really important.

• 39:09Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  I've been in 12 steps. I've gone to pretty much every kind of 12 step meeting that exists out there. I have dabbled in and gotten great, uh, comfort and help from, and some of my best friends are ones that I've met in, in 12 step meetings. Because it's hard, you were talking about like intimacy and making friends. It's really hard in contemporary society to make friends. It really is, is hard. People don't want to go deep and they resist. But in 12 steps, in fact, folks, listening at home, maybe you're not even addicted, hit a 12 step meeting just to get to know people and to share your heart and share on a deeper level and create kind of bonds of friendship. Then I hate, you know, I'll go out to quote unquote, friends of mine to lunch here

• 39:54Speaker 02

  who I've worked with for years in Hollywood and we'll talk about like, what'd you think of this movie? Why'd you watch that on Netflix? Can you believe so and so got cast with that? Can we, it's just like,

• 40:03Mayim Bialik?

  Call a program friend and they'll be like, I'm deep in grief because this happened.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:08Mayim Bialik?

  I'm processing heavily. I need some self-care. Would you like to take a walk? And then I need to take a nap and I need to not speak to you for a day and then let's hit a meeting tomorrow.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 40:19Mayim Bialik?

  And also just a shout out for that, if you know anyone who's drinking bothers you or drug use, go to an Al-Anon meeting. Chances are, it doesn't have to be someone in your family. If you, if there's anyone in your life who's ever accused you of trying to like, manage or control them, or you're too bossy or mind your own business, you probably need an Al-Anon meeting.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Amen, amen.

• 40:40Mayim Bialik?

  Just go online and find one.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  And if you find your life powerless because of the behavior of others, go to a Coda meeting.

• 40:46Mayim Bialik?

  There you go.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  So it just can be any kind of someone else's behavior. Yeah.

• 40:49Mayim Bialik?

  We could go on and on.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. But most importantly, and I think part of my journey, similar to yours, has been my faith journey. So when I was going through these dark times and mental health struggles, and I still deal with them on a daily basis, but when I was greatly suffering, I had rejected the Baha'i faith of my youth. And, and I write about this in my book, The Bassoon King, about my journey kind of coming back to faith. And the tools that I found in the Baha'i faith that helped me with this, prayer and meditation, thinking, learning to be of service to others, not that I succeed at that a whole lot, but you know, attempting to be of service to others and to the world as a way of finding your own path and identity.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  And many, many more things, uh, I found great solace in my faith journey and my spiritual journey, which is supported by good therapy and supported by 12 steps and is, uh, something that should be embraced.

• 41:48Mayim Bialik?

  Also supported by science, uh, because the, the notion of routine and, and ritual.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Community.

• 41:56Mayim Bialik?

  Community, the things that happen to you when you meditate, when you pray, when you have focused attention, and when you build a life around making space for those interactions, those are things that actually do contribute by and large. You know, to a larger sense of, of well-being, which is not to say that religion saves you from ailments, that's not the point. But we're talking about, we are human beings and human organisms that are living with a need for a support system and structure surrounding our mental health, because we are functioning in a reality that is very, very bizarre. Like our existence is unbelievable, you know, there, I, I, you know, I'm grateful for that awareness.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:36Mayim Bialik?

  Let's go back to your question. When you said, why wouldn't people take, like, why, what is that resistance to therapy?

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:44Mayim Bialik?

  What, what do you think it is? I mean,

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Fear and denial. I think that they're afraid to face challenges that they might be having, and I think they're in denial about challenges.

• 42:54Mayim Bialik?

  What do you think that fear is?

• 42:55Speaker 02

  I guess it's a fear of having, a fear of being confronted about patterns, you know? Because a good therapist will do care frontation and,

• 43:08Mayim Bialik?

  What?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Yes, that's one I learned along the way. But a good care frontation would be a therapist saying, you know, Bobby, I've noticed you doing X, Y, and Z time and time again.

• 43:19Mayim Bialik?

  Calling you out on yourself.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Why do you think that you do, like, that can be, that can be challenging. People get very defensive, you know? And I think that defensiveness is something that should be obliterated. Why does anyone need to ever be defensive, ever? Think about it. Why do you ever, why would anyone ever need to be defensive?

• 43:35Mayim Bialik?

  Well, you want to know what all the people I've dated say? If you wouldn't attack me, I wouldn't be defensive, which could also be true.

• 43:40Jonathan Cohen?

  You're hiding shame and fear most, most of the time.

• 43:43Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, he didn't like my joke.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  I think he did like your joke.

• 43:47Jonathan Cohen?

  No, it was funny. Mayim also, the running joke on the podcast that I need to go to more therapy and Mayim wants me to be more engaged in therapy. I believe in therapy wholeheartedly. And more than that, I believe that we are taught from a very young age not to address whatever emotion or, uh, issue that is going on with us, so that we fit in. And so that conditioning happens at a very young age. And then, so to be told at pick an age that, okay, now I'm going to go and I'm going to face whatever discomfort I'm used to masking or pushing away from. And that now the very appropriate response is I'm going to lean into that. I think fundamentally, people are, have been trained to, to avoid that.

• 44:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Part of the reason people have a difficult time with therapy and 15 minutes is because I'm going to, or 50 minutes, I'm going to open up something that I don't know that I'm going to be able to put back together. And the goal of a good therapist is to round it up and sort of package you back up so you can exist in the world. But it does feel like two separate existences. One is this world of being, uh, exploring your, your insides and your feelings and your patterns. And then the other is you're dealing, a lot of the time in a world that's, has a ton of BS in it. And you're having to not express what's really going on for you. And people have a very hard time when you're talking about 12 steps and you're talking about people who have been in a lot of therapy. They have a lexicon of self-reflective skills and, and vocabulary that can share.

• 45:11Mayim Bialik?

  I paid a lot of money for these skills. Well, and I think also COVID, you know, this past year has been a real shakeup for a lot of people. Because, you know, I like to point out, if you didn't like the person you were married to before, how about you can never leave the house?

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:29Mayim Bialik?

  You know?

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:29Mayim Bialik?

  You know, I, I think that that's, um, it's pushed a lot of relationships to very interesting places.

• 45:34Jonathan Cohen?

  People also, because of the coping mechanisms and where their life is, if you start unpacking it, you may realize that you have to rip it all down. And I think there's an investment in, oh, maintaining status quo as survival versus it takes a lot of work to discover that you don't like the person that you may be married to and you have to change your entire life.

• 45:52Mayim Bialik?

  That's when the acronym becomes face everything and recover.

• 45:58Mayim Bialik?

  I could do this all day. One of the things we talked about when I metaphysically milkshaked with you and Reza, you know, there's also this notion of it takes a lot of work. You have to put in a lot of work to, to reap benefits that get you what you want. A lot of people don't want to do the things that religion requires of you. You know, they don't like that there are requirements and it, it feels very counter to our liberal and progressive consciousness. Like, what do you mean I have to show up at this time? What do you mean there's a way that people dress? Like, I don't want to do that. You know, I'm just going to stomp my foot at it, right? Or the notion of like ritual, what do you mean? There's certain times of day that I have to do that. Well, I'll do it whenever I want, you know?

• 46:42Mayim Bialik?

  And, and I feel like there's a similar, you know, we can get into a similar kind of mode of thinking about therapy or about recovery, right? Like, what do you mean there's steps? I have to, I have to call someone? I have to pick up a, like, I'm so terminally unique that if I don't want to do it, it means that it shouldn't be done, right? Instead of,

• 47:04Mayim Bialik?

  There are other people who have been where you are before. And I think that's, you know, ultimately, and this feels like a good place to kind of, you know, close, close up, as it were. There are people who have experienced a lot of tragedy and a lot of trauma and a lot of pain, who do go on to find ways to, to have contentment, to have fulfillment. You are a person who, you know, not that being married is the end all be all, but you are a person who has a family. You have pets, you don't have a goat, but you have other pets.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Pigs.

• 47:34Mayim Bialik?

  Pigs, that's right. You also, are you plant-based, is that correct?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 47:39Mayim Bialik?

  But you have been?

• 47:40Speaker 02

  I was.

• 47:41Mayim Bialik?

  You've dabbled.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  I was for a while, yeah.

• 47:43Mayim Bialik?

  But now you're flexy.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  It says that I'm on, on my Wikipedia page, but I'm not.

• 47:46Mayim Bialik?

  I'm just saying, we need to change your Wiki, because I had it. But, okay, fine. But in any event, you, you are a person who, who has put in a tremendous amount of work.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  A recovery journey is the same as a spiritual journey. And it frankly, it's a human journey. And that is to make ourselves the best possible version of ourselves over the course of our lives. We're gonna make mistakes along the way. But this, you've gotta put in the work if you want the benefit to it. Some of the benefits are a feeling of well-being, you know, that maybe you didn't have. I have a feeling of well-being now, generally, day in, day out, that I didn't have when I was in my twenties, because I've done a lot of fucking work on it. And it's been work, in a lot of ways, it's work to develop a relationship with my higher power. And it's work to learn how to be a better husband to my wife, which is, I was a really crappy husband for a lot of our marriage.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  And I've learned how to be a much better husband. And it's been a lot of fucking work. And it's been therapy and it's, it's been, you know, consultation. And so, this, again, going back to the therapy thing, a lot of people are like, ah, therapy, it's expensive, and I can't afford it, like, well, if you're stuck in your life, and yes, you're, and let's say you're spending, you know, a hundred and fifty, two hundred dollars a week on therapy, and that's, you know, that's super expensive, and I know a lot of people can't afford that. But if you look at it as a long-term investment, if over, if three to five years later, all of a sudden, you have renewed confidence and belief in yourself and well-being and an open mind, all of a sudden, like, incredible bounties can come your way.

• 49:19Mayim Bialik?

  And also, you don't, I think another, another point along that, along those lines, it's not like when you think about weight loss, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna put in the work so that I can lose the, you know, name a number, the fifteen or twenty pounds. And it might come back, right? But the progress that you achieve, when you do this work on yourself, the, the idea is not that your life will never be hard, or that you'll never experience hardship, or that you won't get depressed, but the idea is that you now have a foundation with which to be, if you arrive in the same place, you have spiraled up. You're not in, you're never in the same place again.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  It's evolution.

• 49:53Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  You have evolved. And the same thing happens through the spiritual work. And whatever your faith, community, or however you find a connection to something transcendent and bigger than you, and you were referencing contemporary society, because we live in a society that values the ego above all things. I mean, look at who our president was. Like, it's, it's ego uber alles. It's like, I'm me, I'm self-will, and I can do it. And what about me Instagramming myself and, and broadcasting myself? And so, the faith journey, recovery journey, therapy journey is about, you know, you, we're, we're in a self-centered society, it's about being other-centered. So, other person-centered, and how you grow and evolve from that.

• 50:38Jonathan Cohen?

  Do you have a meditation practice?

• 50:39Speaker 02

  I do, I meditate every day. I keep it very simple. It's about fifteen minutes, and it's just about quieting the mind.

• 50:46Mayim Bialik?

  You do it in the morning?

• 50:47Speaker 02

  I try to do it in the morning. Sometimes I'll forget and answer a bunch of emails and get on a call, and then like, ah, shit, it's one o'clock, I'll do my meditation. But I try and do it in the morning. I think a lot of people think that it has to be fancy, and has to use an app, or have a mantra, or something like that. It really can be, and in fact, it can just be sitting at a stoplight in your car and closing your eyes for thirty seconds to, to breathe. Breathing is part of meditation. And to just quiet the thoughts of the mind, because we are, and that's another thing, spirituality teaches us, we're not our thoughts. Thoughts are a helpful tool, they can be. Sometimes thoughts, you were describing OCD thoughts, can be an impediment to feeling of well-being.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  But my identity, your identity, our identities, is not based on thought. It's, it's based on some other reality that is above and beyond and within and without thought.

• 51:45Mayim Bialik?

  I love that. Can I ask you one silly question?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:48Mayim Bialik?

  Do people expect you to, I mean, I'm asking you this because this is something that happens to me and has for pretty much my whole life.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:53Mayim Bialik?

  Do people like, expect you and want you to be like, cute and funny?

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Sitcom character actors having a conversation about being sitcom character actors.

• 52:03Mayim Bialik?

  That's not what I'm asking. No, I just like, because...

• 52:05Speaker 02

  No, but it is where you are, and it's fine.

• 52:07Mayim Bialik?

  No, but I know that your character on The Office, like, I, I mean, I've seen enough things to know. Like, you know, you, you had, you were quirky, and you had like, isms, and you know, like,

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:15Mayim Bialik?

  And I just wonder, like, is that a thing that people, like, do they expect that and want that?

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Yes, they absolutely do.

• 52:21Mayim Bialik?

  What's that like?

• 52:22Speaker 02

  People, people want me to be Dwight, they want me to act like Dwight.

• 52:25Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  I, I, I always find it really funny on like, Twitter, I'll tweet about vaccines, or I'll tweet about climate change, and people will be like, Dwight would never get vaccinated, unfollowed.

• 52:35Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Dwight wouldn't care about climate change, he would think it was BS, unfollowed, like, right, so, create an account for a fictional character that was on a TV show and follow it. That's fine, but, but I, so, but there is, yeah, there's a constant standard of like, and it's, oh, you're not like Dwight at all. It's like, do people understand how acting works? Like, seriously, like...

• 53:01Jonathan Cohen?

  She gets it all the time.

• 53:02Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and also, because, I mean, I think because I was on television as a teenager, there's a certain ownership that we have over young people, you know, as a culture. And yes, I will say that there's a certain ownership we have over females, that is, it's different. I promise you, it's different. And that notion of like, why aren't you smiling? I mean, I got asked that all the time as a teenage girl. And I was like, because do you not know what's happening to the planet? Or, like, I was, I was like, because we're all dying slowly. Like, have you not read The Plague?

• 53:33Jonathan Cohen?

  Rin, you, you said something that I don't have the exact quote for, but you were talking about meditation, and you were talking about your spiritual practice and a relationship to a higher power. You were talking about the mind and our thoughts, and you're like, there's an existence outside of that, that is, you didn't say another reality, but it did speak to me as like, a different form of consciousness. And can you talk a little bit about your relationship with another, not reality, but it is, to a certain degree, like, when you have a relationship with a higher power, with your spiritual practice, you're tapping into something, you're opening up another form of consciousness, and, you know.

• 54:07Mayim Bialik?

  Well, can I actually... I'd like to answer this briefly first, because it is about your faith. And one of the most profound experiences, which I think we spoke about on Metaphysical. One of the most profound religious experiences I have ever, ever had was at the Baha'i temple in Haifa, which is in the north of Israel. And the, the temple there is, I mean, it, it's exquisite, and in particular known for its hanging gardens. And it's, it is a stunning, stunning place, visually. There were a lot of different rooms, but there was a prayer room that has no icons in it. Um, you know, the Baha'i faith respects and honors the traditions of all prophecy. I mean, is that a safe...

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, we find a universality in all religions, coming from the same divine source.

• 54:50Mayim Bialik?

  Great, yes. And so, it's a beautiful room, there were some flowers, it was very, very quiet. And something happened in that room that, to, to, to me, meaning in my experience, that is not, it's not quantifiable. And it was, it was a very specific sensation. I was not on the drugs, I was not drunk. I was simply sitting, and this was even at a time in my life when I wasn't particularly religiously dialed in. But something happened that I call divine, you can call it whatever you want, but to me, that's the ecstatic, transcendental experience that we can have as humans.

• 55:33Mayim Bialik?

  And I'm, I'm sure it happens other places, but I would be curious kind of your, you know, your take on this kind of other reality.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Tell me more, you just had a, just a glimpse or a feeling?

• 55:44Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a special feeling. If I had to put names to it, I'd say that there was a sense of like, safety and comfort.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:53Mayim Bialik?

  There, there was a sense of calm, which felt different from any other calm. And it felt like, there has to be a different word for what this is than any other word I've ever used.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, a kind of tranquility.

• 56:05Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, but, but even that doesn't feel sufficient.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:09Mayim Bialik?

  You know?

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Jonathan, did you want to say something? You wanted to add something?

• 56:12Jonathan Cohen?

  I discovered energy work when I was seventeen. My sister had decades of health problems, and she transformed her life through a variety of things that I didn't really understand, because I was six years, six and a half years younger than her. And at seventeen, I started doing somatic bodywork. And I went in, you know, extremely emotionally shut down, and living with an enormous amount of family trauma that had happened. And I went in and I was like, thinking that I was gonna get some sort of magical code or saying to say, to like, give me superpowers. And I quickly realized over a four-day workshop, like, that wasn't gonna happen, and I was very disappointed. But at the end of the four days, I began to have a sensation in my hands that someone, you know, could call energy, but I didn't understand what that would even mean.

• 56:57Jonathan Cohen?

  But it was fundamentally unexplainable and profound. The larger takeaway for me has always been, there's more that I don't understand that I am curious about. And meditation is a way to get there for me. Um, and so, when you were just talking about... You know, where this all started, that what you were sharing made me feel like there was more there that I was very curious about.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  For me, it's really simple. So if you're an atheist and you say, "We live in a material world and there's just a lot of empty space with stuff in it and there's energy and there's certain scientific laws in that empty space." And that's all there is because that's all that can be proven. And through some accident of molecules bumping into each other, we became human beings and we have this consciousness and we last 70, 80, 90 years and then it snuffs and it's out. And the only meaning that we have is what we have along that way of those 70 years. That's one way to live a life and that's all fine and good. But

• 58:00Speaker 02

  I think a spiritual perspective for any one of any spiritual tradition is that we are something greater than our bodies and our consciousnesses, that there is a soul, if you'd call it that, there's an eternal aspect to us and we're riding around in flesh suits for a limited amount of time. And when our meat tuxedos fall off, schluff off and die, there's some continuation of a journey. And in, in looking at life that way, I think it allows one for hope, that there is a purpose and a meaning to this beyond just kind of like, "Oh, fuck it, I only got 70 or 80 years on this world. What do I do? I don't know.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  I guess I like spearfishing. I guess I'll go for spearfishing." Like, there is more, like, we're building something, we're working on something, we're, we're growing something beautiful inside of ourselves, our, our souls, our spirits, that we're taking on some eternal journey toward the divine, whatever that looks like. I won't even use the God word because that could freak people out. But, but I think, going back to, to mental health, I think, yes, I've had experiences of that. And I think that using spiritual tools can help us on our journey toward, toward mental health, toward balance, toward finding hope, meaning and purpose in our lives. You found it in the energy work, you find it in the,

• 59:26Speaker 02

  in the Jewish community, I find it in the Baha'i community and the holy writings and practice. And, and that's okay. And we can all work together and love each other and support each other and everyone listening and whatever, you know, their spiritual path is.

• 59:42Mayim Bialik?

  That's so nice.

• 59:43Jonathan Cohen?

  That's beautiful.

• 59:43Mayim Bialik?

  Let him go.

• 59:45Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm gonna just say that I am just such a, so appreciative of Soul Pancake and, you know, in my day job as a, someone who had worked in the corporate world making content, a lot of content.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:57Jonathan Cohen?

  I would always use Soul Pancake as the example of how you can make content for good and with purpose.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:04Jonathan Cohen?

  And that you, you know, making content is a wildly powerful endeavor that reaches so many people.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:12Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm just so appreciative of that as a model and example. So having an opportunity to share that with you is, is very special.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks so much. I appreciate that.

• 1:00:20Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you again for being our first in-person guest. We obviously got very excited and just kept talking and talking and talking.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  This was great.

• 1:00:26Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  This is fantastic. What a pleasure. What an honor. Thank you for having me. I was in Mayim Bialik's bedroom, folks. That's what this was all about. That's the title of the show. I spent hours with Mayim in her bedroom, folks.

• 1:00:40Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, okay. From our breakdown to the one that we hope you never have, from us and Rain Wilson. We'll see you next time.