Unfortunately, SEO Just Changed Forever

Growth Newsletter: https://levelingup.beehiiv.com/subscribe Need marketing help? Visit: https://www.singlegrain.com/ and https://npdigital.com/Want to recruit great marketers? Find them here: https://marketingschool.io/hire Neil Patel and Eric Siu open with a shift they say will define 2027: AI agents, not people, now do the searching, running 40 or 50 queries to pick which company to hire or buy from. They break down new data showing AI-referred shoppers convert far better than other online shoppers, and how much of Anthropic's own work AI now leads. Eric then shares what he learned at a YPO summit, from needs and leads sessions to a founder who raised $1M after a five-minute conversation. Neil walks through how debt changes the maths on buying a company, how lenders price risk, and why calm beats leverage. They also cover why posts stay online, short-form fatigue and picking guests for impact. The takeaway is simple: make your business easy for an agent to choose. Key takeaways◾If an AI agent runs 40 to 50 queries before choosing, your business has to be easy to find and pick◾AI-referred shoppers convert better, so optimise for agents and assistants as well as for Google◾High-risk lenders charge 40-50% in fees, so cheap debt and a calm life beat chasing 5x leverage Chapters00:00 AI agents now pick who wins00:51 Google search is up, but ad revenue only +12%02:01 Agents as personal assistants: the water heater story03:29 Eric's AI assistant for his AI Summit04:36 Grokbot, the genealogy bot and rising costs06:16 Anthropic: AI now leads the work09:18 AI in R&D: from assistant to coworker11:21 AI shoppers convert 60% better14:45 The Coachella of business events17:16 Needs and leads: 8 hours, about 40 leads18:29 A friend invests $1M after a 5-minute chat20:26 Buying a company on debt: Neil's maths24:02 Private credit: a thin spread for lenders26:54 Intros and clear offers27:29 Storytell to sell: the staffing pitch28:53 Give intros without expecting anything back30:24 He raised $1M in 5 minutes32:13 What the YPO ticket costs32:49 Being transactional: Neil's one-line DM34:08 Midterms: why the Democrats won on messaging36:57 AI layoffs: Microsoft, Google and Canva38:27 Tailor the pitch: sell the bottom line40:21 Relationships: Neil sees about 200 clients a year42:10 Same offer, new wording: audit vs AI workflows44:31 Run your own needs and leads without YPO46:13 YPO Gold: the age and profit rules50:13 Nextiva founder's advice: low debt, calm life54:00 5x leverage: the maths56:15 Eric on his 2021 debt deals58:01 How lenders price risk: 1 in 400 loans60:42 Agency roll-ups: when the founder wants out62:52 Don't buy data centers: the Saudi energy guy65:56 Elon deleting tweets: what you post stays68:09 Short-form fatigue and who speaks freely70:23 Who can say anything: the All-In hosts73:13 Make content about what excites you74:14 Steven Bartlett: interview who you want76:14 Interview for impact, not views76:37 Lose sales: ask once, ask clearly 𝗔𝗕𝗢𝗨𝗧 𝗧𝗛𝗘 𝗖𝗛𝗔𝗡𝗡𝗘𝗟Welcome to Marketing School, one of the top business podcasts with over 61 million downloads. Each episode delivers actionable marketing tips and strategies from two entrepreneurs who truly practice what they preach. The show is hosted by Eric Siu, founder of Leveling Up and Single Grain, and Neil Patel, co-founder of Neil Patel Digital and recognized by Forbes as a Top 10 Marketer. 🎙️ Learn More About the Hosts Eric Siu – Leveling Up: https://www.youtube.com/@LevelingUpOfficial Neil Patel: https://www.youtube.com/@neilpatel 📩 Free Resources Ubersuggest: https://www.ubersuggest.com/ Answer The Public: https://www.answerthepublic.com/ ✅ Subscribe for Daily Marketing Insights!

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Speaker 01

  What you're not seeing, and this is gonna be the big thing in 2027. AI will go run 40, 50 queries. And if you're not optimizing for the agent, you're not gonna be selected. Companies are missing the next big wave in this. I think the biggest thing that's gonna impact AI, and I've been talking about this at more and more conferences. And if you think about organizations right now in marketing, they leverage the channels we already know about, social, search. And most of it is paid than organic, and you can just see that within the revenue charts of Meta and Google. Or Alphabet, whatever you wanna call them, the company.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Now, companies are starting to optimize to be found by LLMs. You can buy your way in through ads, but they haven't put too many ads in. And if you look at Google and their earnings, people are starting to use Google like they use ChatGPT. Google search volume is increasing at a rapid rate, faster than they've ever seen before. People are typing in longer tail questions. But if you look at their revenue, I believe their earning numbers showed it was only 12% increase in search ad revenue. The market hit them really hard for that because they're worried that they're gonna get crushed by ChatGPT. But what the market, in my opinion, doesn't understand is, no, they're being used just like a ChatGPT. The only difference is they haven't figured out how to really monetize the AI responses. And eventually, it just means they're gonna just shove in more ads.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  And what you're seeing now is corporations starting to optimize to be found in these AI results. So whether it's organic or paid. What you're not seeing, and this is gonna be the big thing in 2027, is Dots, Grokbot, Muse, they're all blowing up. More of them are coming out. They're being used really heavily. I don't know if you saw the post on Grokbot on how they're limiting usage now depending on your plant type because their cost is much higher than what they're generating in revenue. And these are, just think of these, forget the word agent. Think of them as a personal assistant. It's someone going out there and helping you do whatever you're looking for.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  So I, did I ever tell you the story of my co-founder Mike and how he's looking for a water heater and he used Grok?

• 2:51Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  For it?

• 2:52Speaker 00

  This will be your third or fourth time telling it.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Yeah. So he had AI, AKA a personal assistant, but a digital one, find companies to come to his house and give him a quote. And then he picked the one that was within his price, but he told the agent or AKA the personal assistant what price range he was looking for. Companies are optimizing to be found on search and social, and now AI, specifically LLMs. But companies are missing the next big wave in which there won't be as many human searching. There'll be more total searches, but it'll be AI doing a lot of the searches behind the scenes. And I believe that'll make up more than half the searches out there, way more than that. Because as a human, you may run two, three queries.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  AI will go run 40, 50 queries to get very specific and granular to find the exact company, product, solution that you're looking for. And if you're not optimizing for the agent or the assistant, whether it's Muse or Dots or Grokbot, to showcase you, you're not gonna be selected. And I think that's a big opportunity in marketing that pretty much we don't really see companies optimizing for yet.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  I gotta show you something with my, my agent, Neil, and then we can, we can, I can go and respond to, to what you just said. So I had this issue yesterday because we are, we have all these speakers coming to this, my, my global AI summit tomorrow, right? And I wanted them to, to, you know, be able to, to join, right? So my, my, my ChatGPT dot spotted an issue. And it's like, hey, do you want me to just handle this for you, right? And so it ends up talking to, you know, this, this gal I'm talking to, Carol. It's like, hi Carol, this is Dudu, Eric's AI assistant. Who should Eric contact to escalate a request for city of light access for speakers who aren't registered for a global business summit? Thanks Dudu. Like, damn it, maybe I shouldn't name my assistants Dudu, but

• 4:48Speaker 00

  it, it just shows you how useful these things are. And I'm using it in so many different ways now, Neil. Like I, a lot of the stuff that was booked this week, it was, there's like, there's like, whether it's like for tennis or like dinner reservations or all these other things. I'm having it handle more and more complex things just because I'm trusting it more. So I think we're gonna get to a point, Neil, I think very quickly where it's just like, yeah, you know, I just trust it and you, you just give it more and more. Now, the other thing, you just mentioned Grokbot. So I don't know if I showed you this, Neil, but I've, I made this genealogist bot here and it showed me just how influential my grandfather was. Like my mom never told me these stories, like how he was, you know, he was a government, you know, he started like a government newspaper, like he ran a county during the war with Japan.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  He was at the center of Taiwan's stock market. So I think he was one of the guys that kind of started the, the, the, the stock market there. And so, but nobody, like my mom never told me these stories, like he, like all this other stuff. He founded and paid for his own newspaper, right? So anyway, all that to say is, um, yes, Grokbot, like Elon saying Grokbot's too expensive. And I, I think my usage has probably been cut in half. And I'm seeing my API bills just go up a lot. And a lot of people are, are not too happy about that. So, um, anyway, I'll have to say two things here. Grokbot is great still, but you know, your usage has probably been cut in half. Second thing is, um, use your AI agents, but you wanna make sure you're smart about naming them. You don't name them Dudu because it ain't gonna make you look good if it's responding for you as Dudu.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  No, you, you need to go change out all of them. When you say your usage is just cut in half, you're saying they cut your usage down in half. You're still using it as much as you can.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  We used to be able to do a lot more. And then now I'm looking at, I'm seeing all these API bills come in. I'm like, we didn't have those like a week or two ago, right? And now the overages are coming in. And I'm like, okay, like, and by the way, like, he knows he can sell compute for more to these hyperscalers. So he's gonna go where the money goes, so.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he's gonna reduce your usage and then sell that compute to someone else because he can make more money from that. I don't blame him for that. We would probably do the same thing if we owned the company.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Yep, totally. So this is a, this is tweeted from Sunny Madra. You can see, you know, one of, one of my, my Twitter homies over here, VP of Nvidia. He previously CO and President of Grok, which was G R O K or G R O Q, which was sold to Nvidia for about 20 billion, I think. So he's, he has this tweet over here. It says, the impact of this trend is underestimated. So let me, let me tell you what we're seeing on the screen over here, okay? So when you look at August 2025, this is how AI share of AI model research and development at Anthropic. So this is how Anthropic works with AI basically, right? So in August of 2025, so not too long ago, guys, you had minimal AI, okay? So you can see AI assists with like 50% of tasks. And then, you know, maybe the other, um, let's call it like, you know, 25, 28% or something like that

• 7:35Speaker 00

  was minimal AI. And then, um,

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Can, can you start again? You lost me on this whole thing. I don't understand it.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. So thank you for that. And is my connection okay still, by the way?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  It's, the audio is good enough.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  Okay, good. So AI share of AI model research and development at Anthropic, okay, by, by month, okay? So this is, um, this is the share of work that they're, that Anthropic is doing. Go ahead. What were you gonna say?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Okay, so it's a share of Anthropic's doing their, AIs doing for other companies or for themselves?

• 8:05Speaker 00

  AI's share. This is, this is how their AI is doing AI model research and development. So this is a, this is minimal AI, okay? AI assist with the work that they're doing, with the work that their researchers are doing.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Sorry to cut you off. I'm still confused. When you say this is their model research and development at Anthropic, I'm assuming this is internal use for Anthropic, correct?

• 8:28Speaker 00

  That's correct. Exactly. So, and, and if you read this part at the bottom left over here, Neil, it says, at this time last year, so October 2025, AI played a minor role in AI work. Am I making sense there?

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you're saying AI wasn't used as much for AI work. Now AI is used to help AI more frequently is what you're getting at, correct?

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Correct, yeah. So at this time last year, AI played a minor role in AI work. Okay, so now you see when things start to take off. So AI is starting to assist more and more. Okay, so you can see the minimal is going lower and lower. AI is starting to assist with more and more work, right? And then what happened, probably the most important part about this chart, Neil, if we were just to focus it, is the part in orange, okay? So what you're seeing over here is in orange, so March 2026, right? So AI is starting to lead on the work, right? It's leading more than 95% of the time on the work, which means that maybe humans are involved less. So AI collaborates, right? So you can see it's jumping up more and more. But August 2026, Anthropic, keep in mind, they're at the frontier, right? Twenty, twenty-six percent of the work AI is doing is just, you know,

• 9:32Speaker 00

  AI leading the vast majority of it. And so in AI, people like to talk about RSI or recursive self-improvement, which is where the AI, the work that's being done, it improves on itself over time. And that's kind of the Holy Grail. Am I making sense there?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  It is. So what you're saying with this chart is, if you look at Anthropic and the internal stuff that they're working on with their research and development, it used to be where AI was assisting humans. Or technically, if you look from a year time span, before AI wasn't helping much at all. Then it started assisting humans quite a bit. Then AI was collaborating with humans instead of just assisting like assistant. It was actually collaborating kind of like employer or coworker. And now around 26% of the time, all within a span of roughly 12 months, 26% of the time, AI is leading a charge like a coworker, just taking action and doing something without needing to be told what to do. And that 26%, at this pace, it looks like it's rising very rapidly.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  And it'll probably eventually go to 50-plus percent of the time. In other words, that would mean that more than half the time, AI is taking initiative and getting work done. And it's doing more than your employees within an organization. Which is kind of crazy to think about.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  And the thing that I think is worth calling out here. So a lot of people say, oh, like, I'm just not seeing, you know, AI being that effective, right? Like, out in the news or the media, right? It's like, oh, you know, the ROI is yet to be proved. And the people that are reporting on that, it's just like, they haven't seen this yet. Because the, the, the people at the frontier right now, like Anthropic, they're just starting to see this right now, which means the rest of the world is not going to see this for like another while longer. Because there's going to be lack, right? Because they're at the very forefront of this. And so even again, again, if you go back to August 2025, which is not too long ago, you can see a lot of their work was still minimal AI, right? And then it starts going down rapidly. And now you see, you know, the AI leading with 95% more of the work. That is like, it's staggering how fast this is growing.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  And so typically, when people say, oh, it's not there yet, one, they're typically behind. And so naturally, their narrative is going to be, well, yeah, it's not working yet, right? Whereas the people that are living on the frontier, the people that are working in the top 0.2%, they've already seen this stuff, right? So, you know, you have to take that reporting with a grain of salt when people say they're not seeing the ROI. All right, so let me, let's call out some things over here. So I'm looking at some of the trends from this week. So I saw this report from Andreessen Horowitz. Let me pull it up on my screen right now. So do you see my screen right now? Here we go.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Okay, great. So Andreessen Horowitz tweeted this. It says shopper sent by AI show up ready to buy, okay? So you have AI referred shoppers versus other online shoppers. So conversion is plus 60%. Revenue per visit is plus 53%. And then bounce rate is negative 34%. So if you look at this chart over here, AI referred consumer traffic is high value traffic. And we've reported on this before, but it's nice to see updates to this over time. So this is, the sources, JP Morgan and Adobe. And you can see, you know, the year-on-year growth over time over here. So Neil, do you want to report what you're seeing on the screen and what you think?

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you look at traffic growth from,

• 12:56Speaker 01

  what is it called, March 2026 all the way to July 2026? Traffic growth year over year is continually declining from 269% to 130 to 62. So traffic growth is just getting worse and worse. Or is it, is that, am I reading it right? Is it declining? It is, right? That's what it's showing?

• 13:18Speaker 00

  So traffic growth is year-on-year.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  The growth is slowing down, no.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, growth is slowing down, correct.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  The growth is slowing down, but it's not going, yeah, it's not going negative. Engagement is relatively flat. Time spent uplift is going up. Pages per view, pages viewed per visit, and not big of a change. But the big change is conversion uplift. And you can see the conversion uplift is at 60%, while, you know, in March 2026, it was 42%. And if you look at revenue per visit, from March 2026, it was 37% to now, it's 53%.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that, that, these are the numbers that matter. Conversion uplift, revenue uplift. And then time, I would say, you know, balance rate's going down. So they're more engaged and time spent, they're spending more time, right? So anyway, I think, you know, it's a, go ahead.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  And I'm not trying to talk crap on A16Z here. They're much more successful than I am. And they're much smarter, both of them, Ben and Mark. I don't know them, but they're smarter. When you look at the data, Eric and I have seen a lot of GEO data or an AI traffic data. And we see it in quantity because we're agencies and we just have so many friends in marketing. We are not seeing conversion lifts go from 40-something percent to 60% plus in a matter of months from AI traffic. We're not seeing the lift that high. And A16Z is pulling the data from JPM and Adobe. So I don't know, you know, where JPM is getting the data from. I know they're a big bank,

• 14:56Speaker 01

  but it doesn't necessarily mean they have access to tons of marketing data. Adobe does. We are seeing AI traffic convert exceptionally higher compared to any other traffic sources. And again, I could be reading the chart a little bit off or interpreting it in a wrong way.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  So Neil, I gotta tell you this, you know, you've been to EDC before, right?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  The, the electronic concert in Vegas, right?

• 15:23Speaker 00

  But it's not like, you went in and you left. It's not like you were doing drugs or anything like that, right? You've been to that, it's not your thing. I just want to confirm that, correct?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I've, I've been to it. I went with people. Funny enough, they did try to force me to take stuff I didn't. And I bounced within an hour, maybe? It actually takes forever to walk in because it's a concert and it takes forever to walk out, but yes.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  Yes, right. So the reason I asked Neil about EDC, one, I know he hates EDC, right? It's just not his thing. But to many people who like electronic dance music, such as myself, and in my twenties, it was Nirvana, right? It was like the best thing ever. Now, let me, let me put it to you this way. This event that I'm at right now would be EDC. This would be Coachella for business, right? Neil would love this conference, okay? So let me, let me tell you about this and then you can ask me clarifying questions here. Because this will probably sell you on coming back over to, to this thing, okay?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  But, but wait, I don't like EDC. So why would I like this EDC of conferences?

• 16:19Speaker 00

  But if, I'm just comparing, so you wouldn't go to EDC, you wouldn't go to Coachella, right? I'm just saying for normal people, the normal person likes EDC and they like Coachella because it's fun, right? You're getting to do all these different things, right? People have different interests. I'm just saying, this is, this is EDC, this is Coachella for someone who just loves business, okay? That's my best comparison.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Because I get what you mean. Because I don't care for music in general. I'm not, it's not like they hate music, but I don't really care for it. So you're like saying, for me, because I love business, this is like the conference for people who are entrepreneurs.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly, right. And so Neil and I are traveling right now. So Neil's staying in some, you know, some crappy hotel. And Neil gave me some crap about my crappy hotel a few weeks ago. Now he's at a crappy hotel, this is what you get, Neil. So, so anyway, all that to say.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  I'm in a motel, not a hotel, but yes.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Which is fine, but it goes to show you guys, we can be very humble, right? And we are, in fact, I won't say we are humble, even though humble people don't say that. So anyway, I'm at this YPO Global Business Summit right now, okay? And what's interesting, Neil, is remember two years ago, I did the YPO Global Marketing Summit? So I helped put that one together, right? And Neil spoke at that event. And one of the guys I met, his name's Alan. He runs a direct mail company. And he met up with me last year when this YPO Global Business Summit was in LA. And he's like, this is the best conference that I, that I do. And he's like, it's the best YPO conference, right? And then Neil was kind of in and out of YPO for a little bit. I'm still in it right now. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give it a try. So I'm, right now, I'm in Istanbul, I'm in Turkey right now. And then Neil's in Colombia.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  And so this event, Neil, literally, all I did was I spent eight hours doing this thing called Needs and Leads. And it's just you saying what you need for your business. The whole time, your needs and leads, these are, I didn't even watch the talks. Like, screw the talks, man. I just need, there's like eight of these sessions. I went to every single one of them. And basically, the way it works, Neil, is you have 30 minutes. You're with a table of 10, 10 people, right? And one, one guy might be like, you know, we're looking for companies that are doing at least 15 million EBITDA. We'll give them $75 million, up to a billion dollars or so, or even more than that. And, you know, I work with Carlyle Group, right? Which is one of the largest, you know, asset managers in the world. And so I was like, huh, I know some people that, that have, you know, these revenue ranges, right?

• 18:36Speaker 00

  And then, you know, the next person you hear is like, you know, I, I developed something that, you know, solves, you know, extends lifespan for animals. I'm like, huh, that could work really well for like extending the lifespan of like, you know, chicken to lay more eggs, for example. Like, there's a lot of implications. You can extend the lifespan of your pet. And then, then I met another dude, super successful guy, right? He, he sold, his company was doing like 500 million in revenue. I, I, I think it was like kind of in the medical device space. And then now he has something in, in the cancer space, right? And then my friend spoke to him. And within a five-minute conversation, my friend puts a million dollars into his company, right? And, and like, it just, it's just crazy the amount of deals that are being done here. And you can pitch, because typically in YPO, you're not allowed to pitch, right? But at this event, you can pitch hardcore. And this is why Neil would love this.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  Because he could just talk about business the entire day. And this will be Nirvana for you.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  So it's very transactional. I don't mean that in a bad way, but for me, that's a great thing.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  No, it's super transactional, super direct. People are asked like, whatever you say you need, people like, basically you go thirty seconds, talk about what you need. And then the table asks clarifying questions for a minute. And then everyone's like, okay, you know, five, I can really help you for like, I can, you know, decently help you three, I like, I can kind of help you, right? You just take pictures and then you just follow up with these people afterwards. And so all that to say is like, I probably got like, I don't know. I want to say like forty leads from this thing in in different capacities, right? And then people are like, I didn't ask to raise money for any of these, but a couple of people are like, do you want to raise money for your thing, right? And I wasn't looking to raise money for my thing, but anyway.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  You should say, yeah, see what they say.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  I'm I'm still gonna, Neil, I actually, I so I I made some introductions for Neil in other place. I actually met another dude. Um, who had like a hundred ten percent I R R on his last fund and he's looking for more investors, right? So I might throw him your way too, because you know, just for the hell of it, so.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  I like hundred and ten percent I R R.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  So so do I.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Introduction. E- Eric also did an introduction to the guy. Who does uh, who's looking to lend money um, to me and then the guy followed up through WhatsApp. He was like, hey, let's meet up tonight, you free? And I'm like, no, I'm not in Turkey.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  I'm like, I'm in Bogota.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Dude, I gave that guy three intros, Neil. I gave that guy three intros. So and then the funny thing is like the table, like nobody else was able to give intros, right? I'm just not that I'm amazing or anything, but I'm just saying that sometimes you might have an ask and then nobody will be able to help. So, but anyway, yeah.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I looked him up, wh- wh- which was interesting, right? So Eric has this guy that he met from this Y P O event and he's just like, all right, uh. You know, as long as you have a minimum, I think Eric said it's fifteen million in profit, they'll give you anywhere from. And and they do it on a multiple, was what it looks like, because he's had seventy five, so I'm assuming they do up to five X uh, leverage. And they're, my guess is that interest is expensive, right? So I'm guessing that they're gonna charge, call it like twelve, thirteen, fourteen percent interest rates. That's the tough part with it.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Probably, right? But it's still worth the conversation, which is why Neil might take the call, so.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  I'll I'll take the call, but you you you know, like, if I look at my interest facility or my debt facility right now. I can do M and A, interest only, I pay two percent plus sulfur. So I'm paying under six percent or somewhere around six percent and sulfur's high. But that's a really cheap rate for money. Now, I can't go five X leverage. I want to go two times all day long, no problem. Potentially even three times, no problem, interest only, it's a really good deal, no picks, you know, uh, payment and kinds or no, no one trying to take a percentage of your company. It's a really good deal. The the issue you end up having is is it's actually very hard to make the math pan out when you're paying fourteen, fifteen percent interest.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  And I'll and I'll break it down to you, because I or for anyone who's listening. Let's say you got a steel and you're buying a company that does a million in profit, okay? And you buy it for six times, right? Good business, low churn, so you're paying six million dollars. Your interest rate on that six million dollars, right then and there, is nine hundred grand. So out of the million dollars that you're doing in profit, nine hundred of it goes back to pay just the interest payment on that money. It's hard to make the economics pan out, because you're only left with a hundred thousand dollars in principal. That's assuming the million dollars you do in profit, you actually cash flow a million dollars.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  That's two very different things. You could do a million in profit, but you may not see that money until it could be delayed on a. Factor of call it three months, four months or whatever, and you still had to make the payments. In that case, it would be hard for you to make the payments. But let's let's do the reverse. Let's say you bought it for six million dollars, okay? And your interest rate is um, call it, you know, I'm at six percent, so three hundred and sixty grand, around up to four hundred. At a million dollars, i- if you collect a million dollars or you collect close to a million dollars. You still have, call it five hundred to six hundred thousand dollars in free cash flow, which you can use to pay down the principal.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  You got to pay taxes on that money, because the interest you can write off, you can't write off um, the profit after interest payments. You you got to pay your taxes on it, but you can chip away on it and eventually um, the business can pay itself off, right? Now, there's many ways to structure a deal and who says you have to give all six X upfront and all that kind of stuff. But what I'm getting at is, a lot of these guys are doing, I would say twelve is on the low end, when they're giving that much leverage. In today's market, if you got a deal, call it three years ago, would have been better, but in today's market, they're trying to charge you, call it, you know. Fifteen, sixteen percent, not sixteen, sorry, uh, thirteen to fifteen percent.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  And they really are trying to clip fifteen percent. A lot of these guys, they're uh, people that are giving their money are we are looking for a minimum of eight percent return a year. So you're talking about a delta of seven and it's not really a delta of seven, because there's some people that you'll struggle to get to pay back and stuff like that. So maybe they end up making twelve percent, um, but their investors are guaranteed, we'll call it a minimum of eight percent. So there's only four in profit. The numbers aren't that attractive. Um, that's what makes debt really hard when the rates are expensive. This is the core weave problem.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  So much debt. That's why, that's why they're getting, how much do they get hammered by?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Uh, I think their their yields went up to like fifteen percent.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  If you can get a lot of debt, but it's super cheap and it's cheap for a long run and it's locked in, like my rate at two percent is locked in for a long time. And again, my rate isn't two percent. The bank is charging two percent plus the sulfur rate and sulfur rate right now is three point nine seven. So I'm paying pretty much six percent, but sulfur is really high. We're not used to these levels of sulfur. If sulfur comes back down to two percent or two and a half, or let's call it three percent, then I'm only paying five percent interest only. If someone's willing to lend me a billion dollars. And they won't, because my company isn't profitable enough to get a billion dollars in lending, but let's just go with this hypothetically.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  If I was locked in at five percent interest only or six percent interest only, I would take on as much debt as possible, because I can arbitrage and buy companies for. Uh, a low enough multiple where it's extremely profitable and make out like a bandit. The problem is, is people don't want to give you lots of money unless your business, like a billion dollars, unless your business is doing. Three, four hundred billion, uh, three, four hundred million in profit, which my business is not doing that much in profit. So I can't get that level of debt.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Yep. So I'm gonna tell you a few more stories from from this thing. So um, you know, we're sitting at the table, right? And I'm talking about um, the things that that that we're building, right? And then the the needs that I have. And so um, one guy used to be the C E O of Publis List of uh, Australia, right? And so he handled like A K Q A, he handled like all these other um, agencies, right? He kind of uh, spearheaded uh, a lot of these acquisitions as well. Um, so him and I had a had a good chat as well, and then he he he kind of went out of his way to make intros. I had breakfast with a guy today and he's like, you know, um, I need someone who handles influence from market. Okay, boom, I made an email intro, right? He's like, you know, I need someone that can help with like A I transformation. I look at this Indian guy that I just met. I was like, hey, hey, come sit over here, right? Sit down over here. And then he's like, you know, I'm thinking about selling my company, right? I was like, okay, hey, friend, come over here, right?

• 27:23Speaker 00

  And so so it it's so easy to just get people to get, and Neil's actually someone who's very giving um, when it comes to introductions. And he's just like an introduction machine, right? Here, I just find myself giving introductions left and right. There's like one guy, he's like, he has a really good offer. It's like, you know, we do uh, we do television ads and it's on a pay for performance deal. I was like, that's a damn good offer, right? Immediately three intros. And so one, so there there's a couple of lessons from this, right? One, you have to be very clear with the offer. That T V guy is very clear. It's like, hey, I do T V and it's pay for performance, you can run. You know, we're gonna put up our own money first and then, you know, uh, anybody that wants to go into T V, let's do it, right? That's a really good offer. Now, um, this, the conversely, there's this other dude that had a had a staffing company in Philippines.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  When you see like Neil, I'm like, hey, um, you know, I have a staffing business in the Philippines, um, you know, would you be interested in that? Like, could you help with that? Is that something that sounds very interesting to you? That's a real question.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Uh, Philippines business for staffing?

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I'm like, hey, Neil, I have a staffing company in the Philippines. Um, does that sound very interesting to you? Just say yes or no.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  For me to be as a customer, or are you talking about for me to buy?

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Just in general, in general, like, how interested are you just here? Okay, now let me let me get, let me reframe it for you. You know, I um, I helped get top talent um, that works at companies like Amex, um, and they're based in the Philippines.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  That's a little more interesting, right?

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:45Speaker 00

  Right? So it what's interesting is sometimes at these needs and leads tables, you start to see the same person uh, the over and over, right? The first three times I had this guy at my table, I was not interested at all. The fourth time he changed his pitch, right? He's like, yeah, so we, you know, um, we hire, we help hire top top talent from, you know, that works at Amex and like all these other, like two or three other big companies, like Amex, Visa, all these other companies, right? And then instantly, I'm like, I'm like this, right? Five is like, you know, I can help, right? And so all I have to say is your offer, your offer goes a long way. The way you tell your story goes a long way. Um, and you know, the second, the second day I will say here, the lesson is give without thinking about getting, because you know, Neil's always been like that.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Um, I've I've tried to give as many intros as possible and you don't try to get back, because what ends up happening to you, Neil, is when you start to give a lot of intros, people start to feel bad too. And they're just like, they want to give back to you naturally, right? Uh, so one, make sure that your story is clear, two, give without getting and just know that you're, everything's gonna come back to you at some point.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yes. Dude, I I I totally agree with you. And and you know what? If if you give and you don't expect anything back in exchange, a lot of things work out, but you shouldn't expect. You should just give because you want to help people out. And uh, some people could end up being competitors. It's your choice if you want to end up helping them or not. I know when some competitors ask me for help, sometimes I feel it's too much and too competitive. Um, sometimes if it's a competitor and uh, or or I'll I'll give you a great example. I just got introduced to uh. H VAC, plumbing, uh, roofing, home services agency, and they have a different brand for every single vertical. So one just for H VAC, one just for plumbing, et cetera, right?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  And they're growing at a rapid rate over a hundred percent a year. It's kind of ridiculous, uh, and they're extremely profitable. I don't mind giving him free advice, because I would say we're more of an enterprise shop than a S and B shop. Um, and we're trying to get away from S and B and just focus purely on enterprise globally. So for me, I didn't mind helping him out, because I just thought it was a, you know, it was just a good thing to do and we're not really competitors, even though we're in the same space. Yes, I do have S and B division, but it's not really what we care for.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, by the way, I want to also tell the story like, but so the one guy that had the um, well, I'll just talk about my friend who put a million dollars into a company with a five-minute conversation. So originally Neil, um, the offer was he was he was putting two hundred fifty K in. But when he had a five-minute extra conversation with that person and that person told him his life story about how, you know, he lost his loved one, um, you know, from like a disease. Um, and you know, that's why he's going all in on this. And, um, you know, at the same time, you know, he had a company doing hundreds of millions in revenue before. I was like, why did you go from two fifty to one million? He's like, dude, he has credibility. Okay? So one, the story is really good, right? But the second piece that's really important, Neil, when you invest in someone, you're investing in someone's ability to get shit done, right?

• 31:38Speaker 00

  And when someone has a company that's that's done a couple hundred million dollars a year, um, and done it for a long, very long time, you know that they're just gonna make it happen. Um, and that's why he went from two fifty to two million. And then by the funny thing too about this guy, he wasn't even trying to raise like a million dollars. He just wants a bunch of people on the cap table because that's what's required, um, to go public. So.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Oh, that's really cool. So he's just trying to get the right people on his cap table so he can.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, and he's like, dude, at this event, because you have seven hundred people who are in YPO, just get all the people in, and that's all he needs. So.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Uh, so this event was pure YPO, right? No one outside of YPO?

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Pure YPO. And then by the way, Neil, like for perspective, like some of these people are super successful. Some of these people are in their sixties, seventies, and probably even eighties or so. And they're still coming to this thing like with a lot of spring chicken energy. So.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  So is this the first time doing this event? Because you didn't do it last year, right?

• 32:30Speaker 00

  I didn't go to it last year because I thought it was gonna be whatever, right? And I was totally wrong. This like, I love this. For me, I'm like, oh, this is how Coachella used to feel for me. This is how Edie used to feel for me. And I'm like, this will feel so good for Neil.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  So why did you have to spend to go there? Like, uh, other than your plane ticket and hotel?

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Um, so the ticket was five grand. And then the thing I did, Neil, because you know, I like to throw events. I'm throwing my YPO Global AI Summit tomorrow. So it's tied to it. So we we cut down the cost on that. And then I'm able to bring my my overall cost down. So.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Got it. And so is it over? Like, are most of people already heading back now at this point?

• 33:05Speaker 00

  No, there's like a full on, full on party tonight. I'm just throwing a dinner for the speakers and then I might go to that thing. But then I have that event all day tomorrow. Um, and so that that's gonna be a whole thing too. And we sold out on that thing as well, um, which is great. So.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I really do appreciate you telling me it was really transactional. Because the guy you introduced me to from Carlyle, he wanted to set up a call. And I just mentioned, I just messaged him. I'm like, question, what are your rates that you guys charge for debt? I'm like, we're already with the big bank and, you know, we're at two X leverage. And I'm at two percent plus silver. I'm like guessing your rates are ten percent plus uh, to fifteen percent due to leverage ratio, question mark. I'm like, this is just much easier than setting up a call.

• 33:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it's, there's no, um, to Neil's point, what what's happening here is there's no beating around the bush. Like, when someone says they need something like at the table, everyone's just like, so what's your revenue at right now? Okay, what are you, okay, how much are you looking to raise? What's the ticket size over here? Like, it's just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But nobody's getting offended and everyone's very humble, right? And the funny thing is, I was talking to that, that, uh, the TV guy, the guy that does pay for Performance TV. And we were just joking because we're both, we we're both direct response marketers, right? We're like, dude, you've been affiliate, you've been affiliate summit before, you've been to all these other events, right? It's just a different vibe overall. He's like, yeah, this event, like, everyone's just humble, everyone just wants to help each other. And again, perfect. Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson shows how modern brands grow by removing the friction in their marketing and customer experience that pushes customers away every single day, often without leaders even realizing it. Each episode delivers practical insights, real brand examples, and conversations with marketing leaders, showing brands how to win with the new rules of growth, identity-driven marketing, cultural relevance, and frictionless customer experiences. Listen to Frictionless Growth Marketing wherever you get your podcasts. Event for you, Neil. All right. So I wanted to take a moment to tell you about my podcast co-host Neil's agency called NP Digital. And they work with a whole host of global companies or a global organization. Also, Neil has SEO tools such as UberSuggest and Answer to Public.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  All you have to do is go to npdigital.com to learn more, and we'll see you on the other side. So Neil and I, we're not gonna get political here, but let's talk about why the Democrats won, right? So from from the midterm, so this is, this is a, it's like a political topic, but I want to talk about it from a marketing standpoint, right? And so the way I think about it, so Democrats, uh, so we had these midterms in the United States, okay? So Democrats, they swept, right? So they won, I think, Neil, correct me if I'm wrong here, but they won, they took the seats in what?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Pretty much everything.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Senate, right?

• 35:42Speaker 01

  House, the Senate, they pretty much won everything.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, which makes it harder.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  And some of the people, like in Georgia, some of these people running were spending hundreds of millions of their own money and the people who are Democrats that didn't spend any of their own money and barely had any cash won. You look at Texas, Elon spent hundreds of millions of dollars for Republican candidates. The people who barely had any money just swept. And Texas is usually a right-leaning state. It turned blue, which is very rare.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  They haven't had, I don't, I think it's since like nineteen eighty-eight or something like that. They haven't had like a blue governor or like a blue, it wasn't a blue state, right? Which is, which is crazy. So my point of saying this is that not to be, it's not a political podcast, right? But the reason the Democrats won, the reason they beat the Republicans is because, one, their message made a lot of sense. It's like, you know what? Price, gas prices are too high right now. Prices are too high in general right now. We're gonna, we're gonna make sure that that comes down, right? By the way, you know, um, all these other things that are happening right now, like, like, here's the thing, the Republicans we're talking about, you know, we're, we're building, you know, AI progress over here, this is happening, you know, we're building these data centers that are, which is good, right? But the, the average person just cares about getting their bills paid.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  And so your messaging needs to be tied to the vast majority of the people that are gonna be voting. And what happened is you looked at all these districts, like, like, the last one Trump won, like, it showed all these people moving right. This time it showed all these blue arrows moving to the other side. Everyone became like more Democrat, moved to the more Democrat side. So it's just, it's just a messaging thing. Um, and I think they need, they need younger, more vibrant candidates if they want to try to win next time. Um, but anyway, not political advice, not trying to be political, but it's a marketing thing. It's a messaging thing. Go ahead, Neil.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yes, when you think about it from a, a marketing aspect, a lot of the Republicans were talking about the future, technology, um, you know, like AI and all this kind of stuff. Some of them were talking about, hey, we have a big deficit of all these billions of dollars we want to get into control. It's unsustainable for the future. All right? So just imagine you being an end consumer or an individual. And if your issues, yes, you may look at the forty trillion dollars that the US government is in debt or whatever that massive number is. If you can't get your bills paid and you're struggling with food costs and rent costs, do you really care if they have forty trillion dollars in deficit or forty-five trillion dollars?

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Or if there's this AI boom, which could potentially negatively affect your job? Because you're hearing all these AI people talking about, hey, you know, it'll replace a lot of jobs and you'll see it in the future. And then Microsoft doing, um, uh, voluntary, uh, buyouts. And I believe Google announced that and Canva just laid off a large chunk of their workforce. And you're seeing all these layoffs. So would you, from a marketing message, want people to talk about the future ten, twenty, thirty years from now? How we're gonna win or beat China? Or do you want people to just talk about how you could pay your bills tomorrow? How if they stop a lot of this AI stuff, your job is more protected and you're more likely to still have money and still have a job? You're gonna go with the stuff that's related to you.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  And this is where I think people get it wrong in marketing. And I'll, I'll give you an example of this, that's, you know, if you're an agency owner that you can use. If I'm pitching a customer on SEO or you're pitching your boss on SEO because you want to do more SEO, or even if one of your employees wants to spend more on it. It's not about ranking higher on Google or getting more clicks or getting more leads. It is actually you as a business owner just want more revenue. Or you, your boss, just wants more profit and more revenue. So if you're pitching, I can rank you higher than a competitor, I can get you more visibility on ChatGPT than a competitor. If people don't understand what it's gonna do and how it's gonna economically benefit them, no one gives a crap.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  You may be able to convince some of the early movers and you may be able to get a really, really tiny percentage of their budget. But most people don't give a crap. What they really care for is how is it gonna impact my bottom line? Because the more profit they make and the better they perform, they're more likely to get promotions, raises, um, you know, uh, and just do better overall with an organization. That benefits them. So when we are doing marketing pitches for our clients, especially on the enterprise end, we try to all relate to bottom line numbers and knock it out of the park. Because if you can make them look good, they look good for the corporation that, you know, that ended up eventually hired you.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  They'll get raises or promotions, or they'll go to another company and they'll bring you along with them too. It's all with marketing, it's all about focusing on the benefit, not necessarily focusing on individual things. You gotta focus more on big picture.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  I have a question for you, a random question. How many clients do you think you see per year? In person?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  If you were to throw a number on it.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  I don't know, at least like three, four a week.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  In person?

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  So yeah, so that means each month, right? You're you're that's up to three, four a week. So you're sixteen a month, twelve to sixteen a month, right?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, some months I'll see like twenty, thirty, December, November will be slower. So I'm just.

• 41:09Speaker 00

  So if I'm just call it like one hundred fifty to one hundred eighty, something like that, right? And the reason I'm even asking Neil this question is because um AI or not, no matter what we like, like it's a relationship business, right? People wanna see you, people wanna do business with you, they wanna talk to you, they want that they wanna dine dine with you. Um, that's just, that's just how it is, right? And that's how this, a lot of this is too. It's a lot of like, hey, let's go grab a coffee here. Hey, let's go grab like, let's go grab some food, right? Um, that's how you build a relationship and that's how you add to your account. That's how you make the accounts better because they like you and they wanna do more with you.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the number is actually probably higher. When I'm in L A, I don't see clients as often. When I'm on the road, I see him very frequently. So this week is Mexico and Bogota. Um, last week was Milan and uh Madrid. I think in Milan, I saw maybe six, seven clients uh that I met up with, like one on one, eating, conversing, presenting, going to their offices. Madrid, I think it was either five, maybe six. I know it was five at least, though. So you're you're talking about in that one week, I saw at least call it ten, eleven, twelve uh clients in person.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  And I don't count just seeing some at a conference and saying hi as really meeting a client in person. I'm talking about like sitting down thirty minutes, hour plus, it's usually an hour plus. Giving them attention, understanding issues, helping them out, all that kind of stuff. Um, and then this week uh from Mexico City to Bogota. I don't know, maybe I'll see eight, nine this week. So call it in the last two weeks, let's just round and use a simple number, twenty clients that I saw.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so let's just call this, right? Like it's it's basically two hundred fifty hours, like let's say two hundred meetings and then I'm just multiplying by one point two five. So let's call it two hundred fifty hours Neil spending uh with clients a year and that's ten days, basically, right? That's ten like full days, by the way. Um, anyway, I just I just I was I was curious. So um I wanna go back to the messaging piece real quick and then we can we can move on from from, you know, these these topics, right? So we the it was interesting, Neil, I was sitting at one table for one of these needs and leads and we had two marketing agencies there, me and someone else, right? And what's interesting is when we were going around the table, like you have to kind of pitch, you know, what you're looking for, right? So the other person was like, yeah, you know, we're a marketing agency and we'd like to offer you a free audit, right? And how many people do you think were interested in that?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Good chunk.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  One or two people, ten, one or two people out of ten. Now, let me give you. One or, yeah, exactly, right? So then it goes to me, right? I'm like, yeah, you know, we're we're a marketing agency, but yeah, we've been building these these um AI workflows and, you know, I totally think marketing is F right now. And um, you know, these workflows, they help you scale G E O and S E O at at, you know, high quality. Um, and then also helps you scale, uh, you know, ad creative as well. We also have another workflow that can scale, you know, uh, cold email infrastructure. Um, and we also have another one that helps, you know, help you find uh helps you find AI native talent. And we're just looking for a couple of people to, you know, uh, try it out and pilot it right now. And uh, that's that, that's the ask, right? And of ten people, it was like eight or nine people that raised their hands, right?

• 44:26Speaker 00

  So my my point is you have two different market, similar business, two market agencies, but it was a different different messaging and different offer, right? Um, and you just had to position it just a little bit differently and your conversion rate goes way higher.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz it's a similar type of offer. It's just the wording on how what was used.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  It's a free audit. It's the same shit, so.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  It's the same thing cuz you're gonna audit workflows, you're gonna look at how they're doing creative, you're gonna look at how they're doing G E O, S E O, it's the same thing.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  And one more thing I'll say, Neil, uh, like I would, cuz I would get to test this, right? Cuz I I did like sixteen tables, so one table I tested, I was like, I just, I said, hey, guys, I just focus on the the the talent plot, right? I was like, hey, guys, um, we have a talent workflow right now that just focuses on on hiring AI native talent. Because I believe that, you know, the top A players are AI native today, right? And they're all nodding their heads, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Um, that entire table, they they they all raised their hands. And it's like a three, four, or five, five is like, I really want this, I really need, like, I can really help you. There are like all fives across the board. And you know what's gonna happen, Neil? They're gonna look for that, but the team's gonna say, well, by the way, we also do marketing too. Would you like to have a marketing audit with that? It's like, would you like to have fries with that?

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, this is crazy to think about. Um, question for you. The event you were at was a Y P O event, so you had to be in Y P O to attend, I'm assuming?

• 45:47Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so so there was no non Y P O, so a lot of people listening can't go unless they figure out how to join Y P O.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I but here's the thing, like, okay, that Neil, you actually you actually triggered a thought, okay? So doing this needs a lead thing, the guy that was running it, he he knows me, right? He's Eric, Eric, come over here, come over here. I'm like, yeah, he said, what do you think? I'm like, this is amazing, man. I was like, I would do this like every week if I could, right? Like, uh, it just keeps spamming this thing over and over. You you would love it too. Guess what, Neil? So he's like, well, Eric, you know, it's it's hard to run it with these chapters. What if we just had all these networks within Y P O? And we brought him over to like, I was like, L A, L A, right? He's like, yeah, yeah, L A, right? He's like, yeah, we let's just have six or seven hundred people come to L A, let's just throw a dinner and we'll do three hours of needs and leads. I was like, yeah. He's like, yeah, he's like, I think we do it like once a year. I'm like, how about we do it like every month, right?

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Or like every six months or so. He's like, yeah, I like your energy, I like your energy, right? So my point of saying this is that um even if you don't join Y P O or if you don't join E O, any of these groups, you can probably put something like this together. You just should probably make sure like there's Hampton, there's E O, there's Y P O, or you could put together your own and you can be the one that brings people together. Cuz I think honestly, if you just had a group that does this all the time, like once a month, it would probably be a very successful group.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just totally. So funny enough, I got introduced to another Y P O chapter two weeks ago. I have a call uh about potentially joining Y P O again next week.

• 47:15Speaker 00

  Which chapter?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Uh, Los Angeles.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  So I met one of the Los Angeles guys here. Actually, no, no, he's Los Angeles gold, so he's even richer. So so he's like, yeah, so anyway.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  That's the one I tried joining, remember? And they didn't let me join.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  I told him, I said, my friend tried to join and I said, he's how old's your friend? I'm like, you know, just like a year older than me. He's like, nope. You're just not gonna, he's like, why does he wanna join gold? Cuz gold's a little, like, you have to be age wise a little older, I think like fifty plus or so. And Neil's not there yet, so.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  No, but yeah, but the businesses are much larger in gold than uh the traditional Y P O Los Angeles. That's what's appealing about it.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Y P O Los Angeles is still a million, like a hundred million or more in revenue typically, so.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  It's it's either a hundred or fifty, I forgot what it was, and I think they may have some profit requirement, I don't know the details, but it's something like that. Um, so the size is bigger. Um, and I met one of the guys, actually, no, it can't be. Cuz the guy who introduced me to it, cuz I was telling him my issue with my old chapter, I was like, yeah, there's a lot of smaller businesses. The guy that introduced me, his business, I think, does three, maybe four million in um profit, maybe five, and I think his revenue is somewhere between forty and fifty million a year. Still good size.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  It's probably fifty, but Neil, also, these groups make exceptions sometimes. If they find that they really like you, they'll make exceptions, yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz he asked me why why I left and I was like, I wanna get into Los Angeles gold cuz there's so so many heavy hitters that I would love to learn from. And they just wouldn't let me in and I tried really hard, two times, actually, once through Eric, once through another friend. Um, they just didn't like my age. They just feel I'm too young.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  They're ageist in a different way.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  But yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  But they all say the same thing. They're like, why don't you just join a chapter and then when you're old enough to be in gold, then just transfer to gold. I'm like, but I wanna be in gold now. They're like, no.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  I guarantee you and I will be at G B S together next year. So they're gonna do it in the Americas, either in Brazil or Mexico City or New York or Dallas, right? So by that time, you'll be back in and this will be the best event you've ever been to in your life. I'm willing to bet on it, so.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  If you're an entrepreneur and you do really well, the the creme de la creme is Y P O uh Switzerland, is it? Or is it Zurich or something like that?

• 49:45Speaker 00

  The richest, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  They're the richest. And I remember the guy who you introduced me to, I forgot his name, really good guy. Um, he's in Y P O L A Gold. He's just like, hey, they're open to talking to you uh if you wanna join the chapter. And they'll trade businesses like trading cards, like no joke. But the problem is is I don't wanna fly to Zurich or wherever it is every single month, like it's just, it's too much.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  You fly all the time anyway. It's it's a fourteen hour flight. It's not that bad, you know?

• 50:15Speaker 01

  But going from Los Angeles to there every month just for the Y P O meeting, dude, I struggled to go to the meetings in L A when I was in my backyard.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  I mean, it's it's different. I mean, it's like, um, I think, you know, not not talking about any chapter, but I I know of a lot of people here that that they left their chapters because um, they some chapters just like to party, right? And that's not what Neil does. That's not what I do. Neil likes to transact, and that's not a bad thing. Neil likes to do deals, right? Um, and

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  I think going to Zurich one month a month to go do deals, that's pretty cool. Um, but anyway.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  That that's actually a good point. The way way you put it that way. I'm like, yeah, you're just going there to transact. That's actually a good idea.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, why we that's like, that's the the love of the game you have right now is that, literally to transact and do deals.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  Okay, well, let me know how it goes.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Real quick, if you want to acquire customers faster and more efficiently this year with the latest strategies and tactics, then check out singlegrain.com. That is my ad agency again, www dot singlegrain.com. Check it out. And if it seems like a fit, we'll get in touch and help you with a free marketing plan.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  I'm gonna actually share a piece of advice for any self-funded entrepreneur. Um, I got it from a mutual friend of Eric's and I mine. Um, his name is Yaniv. He runs a company called Nextiva, which is a really good phone service company. Um, so if you have a sales organization.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  We both use them. We both use them.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, we've been using it for a long time. Um, I I I use them not because it's Yaniv. I use them because their pricing is good. That sounds bad, but it's true.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Which is because of Yaniv, so.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, no, the company overall just has good pricing, right? It's not because of our relationship. It's just their pricing is good.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  I know, yeah, exactly. But it's because they they care about their people, but continue.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, um, you know, Eric's a self-funded entrepreneur. I'm a self-funded entrepreneur. A lot of you guys listening are self-funded entrepreneurs. Um, and as a business, as you grow, debt is a good thing. You know, you can use it to spend more money on marketing quicker if you know your profitability is there, but it takes you six months to get. That allows you to float some of the things like that, right? Especially if you know your numbers. And my debt ratio is extremely low. Whatever my yearly profit is, our debt balance is much lower than that, and we have more cash in the bank account, and I can pay it all off tomorrow, right? With ease, I wouldn't have to worry about it. I wouldn't have to start shifting money around from bank accounts of,

• 52:47Speaker 01

  you know, just to give you a perspective, it's very little debt. And Yaniv has been an entrepreneur for a long time. I believe their previous business was Endurance International, which was publicly traded and then got taken private, made a killing from that. Um, they owned, I think they owned SiteLock back in the day, right? Like the SSL certificate before SSLs were required and GoDaddy or all the big hosting providers were selling their SSL certificates. So they they these guys made a killing. They're serial entrepreneurs. Um, Nextiva is massive. Uh, I believe it's it's public. They ended up raising money from, uh, was it Goldman or someone like that? Right? And they they raised money a few hundred million bucks, if I'm not mistaken, and it was public.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  I think it was, uh, somewhere at a multiple billion dollar valuation.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  Here, I'll I'll give it to you right now. It's Nextiva raised 200 million in its first external funding round from Goldman Sachs Asset Management in September 2021, achieving a 2.7 billion dollar valuation.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  There you go. So really successful. Think about it. Grew a company to being worth this. And this wasn't his first company, but his current company, Nextiva, to 2.7 billion in value, uh, before taking outside funding, and this was their first check. Now, this company has been around for a while now. I know it's more than 15 years old. If I'm not mistaken, it's getting close to 20, right, Eric?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  And he's nodding yes. Uh, the feedback Yaniv gave me, which I thought was some of the best feedback. He's like, dude, you can take on more debt if you want, three, four, five, six times. He's like, but your business is big enough, right? He's like, yeah. I'm like, yeah. He's like, is your life good? I'm like, yeah. He's like, do you really have much stress when the economy goes down or up? I'm like, I stress out that we're not doing as good as we can, but I don't really stress out like for money or worrying about bills or anything like that. Like, life is pretty chill. And he's like, if your stock portfolio goes down a lot in a in a day or a month or a year, do you worry? I'm just like, no, life is pretty much chill.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  He's like, then why take on 5X or too much debt, so 5X profit? And have to worry about payments and have to worry about changing your life and figuring things out when times could potentially get really bad um, and dark. So he's just like, it's better to just live a chill life because you don't have investors. And he's like, that's a better way to operate than pushing for, you know, doing 5X leverage and trying to create this multi-multi-billion dollar company that could go public. Um, and he's like, look, if my company, you know, going public is a pain, he's dealt with it. And he's like, if your company gets to be worth a lot on its own, great. Maybe you get to billions of valuation without ever having to deal with people, and it just takes a little bit longer.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Or maybe you're big enough right now, and you don't have to worry, and life is just chilling. That's okay, too. He's like, you have optionality, but the moment you take on too much leverage and your entrepreneur being like, I'm gonna acquire three businesses this year, and you're pushing yourself to do it. It adds a lot of unnecessary stress and pressure, and if something goes wrong, you can pretty much lose it all. And most entrepreneurs are optimistic, and you have to be a little bit delusional and optimistic, uh, whether it's with your marketing or how fast you can grow. But the moment you start missing numbers and you spent too much and you're over-leveraged, you're now beholden to someone else who can decide the fate of your company.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  Yep. So here what here's what I'll say, too. Let's just think about it from simple, you're let's think about your stock market portfolio, okay? So if you take five turns of leverage on that, okay, so 5X leverage, right? What if your stock market goes down 20% or so, or your stock portfolio goes down 20%? Remember, that's multiplied by five, right? So you have to grow by 100%, right? Um, so just keep that, and I think it's very hard to do, okay? And that's why you, when you think about, um, situational awareness, that's how they kind of got in trouble, right? It took it took on too many turns of leverage. I think it was like four or 5X, maybe even more than that. Um, but not only that, right, Neil, like I have, um, so that happened with Yaniv, yes, but I I think, um, or Yaniv gave us that advice, rather, not it didn't happen to Yaniv. Um, but when I think about, you know, when I think about what I did in 2021, very similar situation, right?

• 56:56Speaker 00

  It was taking on too much debt. It was being unnecessary, and it puts you into a world of, uh, into a world of hurt, right? So we're not saying don't take risk. We're saying you want to be calculated with your risks. Um, and like, sure, it's easy to look at someone else growing much faster than you, but you don't know what they're going through or how much pain they have to go through at times, right? So just keep that in mind. Um, you know, it's it's it's not worth sacrificing, you know, the the what you need, um, you know, the entire village for for, you know, what you want, so.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, Eric, do you want to go into detail on what happened to you? Was it 2021 or 2022 or whatever the year was when you did the deals? Because I'm thinking that's what you're alluding to.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, 2021, we we I'll I'll give what I'll I'll give what I'm I'm willing to share. But 2021, we we did, uh, you know, a couple of deals on the on the agency side. We took on debt to do these deals. So this is a, you can call it revenue-based financing, right? Um, and, you know, the thinking here is that, okay, we can combine these these two companies into ours. Um, and, you know, combine the revenues and grow a lot faster, right? Now, what didn't happen is, um, you know, we we didn't execute well, right? And what ended up happening was that, well, well, the bill came due, right? It doesn't matter. They don't care if, you know, the the lender doesn't care if you're not executing well. The lender just cares if they're getting their money ultimately. And in 2021, it was at the height of, um, all this mania, right?

• 58:18Speaker 00

  And so it's it's it was very easy to get this revenue-based financing, and you have, you know, companies out there um, that were, you know, raising all this money, doing this revenue-based finance. And guess what? The lender that I work with, they no longer even have that product, Neil. That that product was performed so poorly for them that it's no longer even there. And so anyway, all that to say is like, for me, when I was waking up every day, and Neil actually called me at the time. This is when I shared the story before. Neil's like, I think he's just bankrupted, right? And and so, like I said, guys, like, it was very logical, and Neil was coming from a from a place of a like a caring friend, right? Um, but all I would say is like, every day I was waking up, it was very stressful to go through that. And we navigated our way out of it. I'll just leave it at that. Um, but and that that's that allowed us to survive, but that was unnecessary pain, unnecessary stress.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  Um, and there's a lot of other personal stuff going on at that time, too. So thankfully, it all worked out, but it was very unnecessary, so.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and this is also why revenue-based financing or lenders charge interest. Um, when they charge interest, they understand that there could be some failure. Uh, interesting story, when we took, when we refinanced our debt, we went from C A B C to Wells Fargo. C A B C is a Canadian bank, but they also have a US branch, things like 100 billion dollar bank. Um, Wells Fargo, they're also publicly traded. I don't know what their size is. Call it maybe a uh, 300-ish million dollar, uh, bank, right? Or something like that. Wells Fargo's stock, what's their market cap? Uh, 262 billion, uh, dollars in value.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  And I met up with their team. They told me something interesting. So with the revenue-based financing, with the car laws and all that, they typically will charge higher interest rates because there's a higher failure rate. At Wells Fargo, my rate is really low. Do you want to know how many businesses can fail? Um, out of, let's say they do 100 of, or what percentage of the deals can fail? Uh, or or can they fail, or what percentage of the deals are allowed to fail for them to, uh, lose money? Like, what percentage have to pay back or however you want to slice it? And I said, I'm a little bit wordy there, but I think you know what I mean.

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  No idea. You tell me.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  One out of four hundred. If more than one out of four hundred doesn't pay back all their debt, they lose money.

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  So you're getting a cheap rate, but at that point, they're really doing diligence to make sure they're not losing a single dollar, right? Uh, so it's just like you can get places that'll charge you more, but they're willing to have a higher acceptance rate. Like I was just doing dinner with someone. I was in uh, Mexico City yesterday. And uh, they just charged a fee. So it's not necessarily an interest rate. Call it their fee is forty, fifty percent. So if you borrow a hundred thousand, you pay back a hundred and forty thousand dollars, right? And that could be within six months. So you can calculate whatever interest rate you want at that point, or maybe you pay back in a year.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  But the failure rate is extremely high where they have no choice but to charge those kind of rates. If you're you're going to a bank that is not looking for any failure, yeah, your rates are gonna be really cheap. But you know, it's you're not gonna get crazy amount of leverage where someone's gonna be like, sure, we'll let you go to five, six X uh, your profit.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  So something else I wanna share, I mean, cause we're kind of talking about, you know, lending, like we we might as well also move to private equity as well. Because I talked to some of these agency owners here, right? And uh, some of them took on money from private equity to, you know, build a platform, which is to go out there and be the company that's acquiring other agencies and gobble them up, right? That's, you know, kind of been the the the strategy. And, you know, one of the guys I talked to, he just seemed like he wasn't into it anymore, right? So he did the deal and he wasn't interested anymore. I'm like, so so how's it going? He's like, you know, well, you know, it's it's it's been a couple of years now, you know, it's um, you know, the um, you know, the timetable's coming up, which means, you know, they're gonna they're gonna sell the the agency to somebody else, like another private equity firm, right?

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  That's how it typically works. Like you might go for, you know, a period of like five to seven years or so, um, you know, when you sell to try to sell to somebody else. Um, so I was like, so what's gonna happen next? He's like, well, you know, they're trying to keep me on, but like, I don't I don't think I wanna stay on. And he's like, they're probably gonna offer me more money. I'm like, so what are you gonna do? He's like, I don't think I wanna do it. I'm like, why? It's like, cause I can't do the things that I wanna do ultimately. Um, so it kind of it's it's kind of similar in a way where you're you're not behaving naturally anymore. You're not allowed to be yourself anymore. And, you know, when I think about meals there, where I think about uh, my day, it's like, it's not like we're perfect, but at least we get to do what we wanna do ultimately. And I think you can't put a price on that.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  If you can't, if you're trillion dollars, I would do it.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't need a trillion dollars to do it, but I would do it for much less than that, but yes. Um, I I remember I was thinking about raising money from a group of celebrities, cause I'd be like, oh, maybe they'll make my company more sexy, help me with, you know, generating more business and buzz and differentiating ourselves. And I remember Eric telling me, don't do it. And I was like, why? He's just like, you don't wanna deal with other people. He's like, you don't work well with people telling you how to do stuff, even if they own a very tiny percentage of income. I'm like, I could just buy them out, they'd be putting small amounts. He's like, but do you wanna answer to anyone in their emails? I was like, no. And I'm like, good point. I'm like, thank you, Eric. That was good advice.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  I I met a guy here, okay, so so um, I don't know why this triggered our memory. Oh, okay, I I know why now, I see the connection. So anyway, there's this guy uh, based in Saudi here, right? So he's in energy. They build data centers. And so this is alpha, I wouldn't get anywhere else, right? Cause you would assume, Neil, that data centers are you hear being talked about in the in the media all the time, that it's a it's like, and you and I, I mean, to be clear, like, we believe in AI, we believe that, you know, data centers are are good for AI. But he's an energy, he gets it. He sells these data centers all over Europe, right? And he's like, just a word of advice to you, and this guy was totally coked out, by the way, just a bit of advice to you. Do not recommend getting into data centers, right? He's like, it is not going to work out for the long term, but hey, I sell them, so haha.

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  So so anyway, I I I thought that was, I thought that was pretty funny. Um, but.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  And when Eric says a guy's coked out, he's using expression, not the guy's actually on drugs.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  No, no, he's not, he's not, he's not.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Like energy.

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get that a lot. I talk really fast, so people think I'm coked out, so.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Yes, that is true. Um, but Eric doesn't do drugs, so he is not. Um, but um, but yeah, dude, I I didn't realize that data centers wouldn't be a good investment. I thought they would all say, do tons of data centers. Did he say why not to do data centers?

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  He he thinks the numbers don't work out, and he thinks because token costs are gonna come down, which like, I should have pushed him on on this a little more. I'm like, okay, if token costs come down, that means usage is gonna go up. So like, it's still gonna kind of net out to the same type of usage, right? With the data, you're still gonna max out on usage. So I don't understand his argument, but I didn't wanna push him on it because, you know, we're in the middle of a conversation with multiple people, so.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I agree with that. Like, if you look at like the core weaves of the world, this is a financial advice, but their stock, you know, at least in the last few days, because in the United States, um, there was midterm elections and most states are making it harder to just create data centers whenever you want, cause a lot of citizens don't want data centers everywhere and it's causing power to go up or down. I'm not saying that's a good decision or bad decision, I'm just telling you reality. It caused like Micron and all the software, I mean, all the memory chip companies to go down. Um, it caused CoreWeave to just, you know, just get hammered. Uh, and if you look at the last five days, CoreWeave is down twenty eight percent.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  And if you look at pre-market, literally this morning before the market opens as we're um, doing this, this is November fifth, early in the morning. Uh, it's down another four point one three percent pre-market. It's just like, this is expensive.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  First of all, Neil, it's four four thirty nine PM. It's the evening for me. But anyway, I the the, I'm just joking around, but um, what time is it over there for you? Six AM?

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Uh, no, eight forty. I'm in Bogota, so I'm three hours ahead. So normally uh, five forty, but I wake up at four AM. So this is, when it, when you ever, when you're international and you schedule stuff for a five AM for me, it's so easy, cause I'm already up. Cause I I trade stocks, so I'm up before the market. And then I sleep around eight PM, so it's hard for me to sleep past four PM. By the way, did you see how Elon started deleting tweets?

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I didn't. Call it, yeah, what would you see?

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  in business in general, and I would say in marketing in general, what you put out there stays out there. And what you put out there can hurt you. It doesn't matter if you're the richest person in the world, or you're the poorest person in the world. Just stuff that you put out there can hurt you. Um, do you remember the Central Park Karen story? Right? She was uh, in Central Park. Uh, I think she had a dog when she wasn't allowed to have a dog in a certain area of Central Park. And there was a guy who was African American, and she was saying he was harassing her and trying to call the police, when the guy didn't do anything wrong, like he didn't do one thing wrong, he was just following the rules and she was just being really rude.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Um, uh, to that person. I think she worked for Franklin Templeton or something like that. She got let go. Uh, and you know, it's pretty much out there on the internet. Remember what you do stays out there, what you post stays out there, especially if you wanna get involved in political stuff or things that others may agree or disagree with. And I'm not saying you should do it or not do it, it's each individual's choice, but just remember it stays out there and it can impact how you perform in the future. Um, and it goes on both ways. If you look at some of the companies in marketing, I'm not saying I believe this or not, again, I'm trying to stay, I'm just being neutral here. There's a saying in marketing uh, that a lot of publicly traded companies have internally, go woke, go broke.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  And if you look at the stocks that have pushed some of the, and in their words, woke agenda, and I'm not saying that's true or not, and it should be named that or not, um, their stocks have gone down. Uh, the example of this would be Budweiser, and that's where it first started from, and then a few others uh, piggybacked on those type of campaigns and their stock prices went down as well. So just keep in mind, I'm not saying you should do some of these things or not do some of these things. Um, it's own internal decisions on whatever you want, but whatever you put there on the web, it has long-term ramifications, so just think it through on both ends.

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  By the way, Neil, I just, um, I'm thinking about this right now, like, because I'm, one, I'm pretty tired from this event, but I'm like, you know, a- as we get older, I'm like, I was talking to someone, he's like, yeah, I want to do, I do, I, I, we need to create content, dah dah dah. Um, and I just get exhausted thinking about having to record short form content, right? Like this, I enjoy because it's just having a conversation. Um, and I don't mind doing long form YouTube either because I'm mostly just screen sharing. So like both of these are just like, it's more free form. But when it comes to having to think about concepts for, you know, the, the different topics for, you know, like for, for short form, and you have to record like thirty at a time. That is probably least enjoyable for me. I don't enjoy short form. What about you?

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  I don't, but that's why I record thirty at a time.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  So I, in general, I don't enjoy recording when it's scripted. Or some, you know, and I'm reviewing the scripts, but even if I create the scripts, I still don't enjoy it. I don't mind free form. It's just chill. You're having a conversation. It's like you're living life. Like you and I just, we, we, we probably are much more, um,

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  uh, what is it called? We're probably way less censored when you and I talk to each other personally on the phone. But it's just like, this is just like, uh, a mild version of our conversations. Like a, a much more mild version of our conversations. I remember you and I sitting at a dinner with, uh, Chris from, uh, Wistia, right? Do you remember that when we were in Boston years ago?

• 1:10:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  He's just like, dude, your guys' podcast, it would just do so well if you just take what you guys are talking about here and just put this in a podcast. And we're just like, no, no, no, no, no.

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  Never. We'd get canceled. We'd get in trouble.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, we would get canceled. It, it's not that we're political or anything, just some of the crazy.

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  It's just like funny, funny like banter. So it's not like anything that's bad, you know, so.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Yes, but still, you know, it's just like a lot of organizations would just be like, no, this isn't fashionable or whatever it may be. Some people are, say whatever they want. A, a good example of this is the All In Podcast, right? Like, I believe they say whatever they want. They don't, a, a lot of them don't really have customers, so they can say whatever the heck they want on either side, right? It goes both ways.

• 1:11:39Speaker 00

  I actually think they're really censored. I think they're very censored. I think the one, the one that does, that, I, my opinion is one that says, that, that, uh, kind of says what he wants is actually Donald Trump, so.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Y- yes, but on all end, I, I would say Sax is pretty, uh, he says pretty much anything he wants. I would say Chamath is close.

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  Chamath has customers now. He has customers. He can't be like that.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  That's true. He, he's starting, well, he started a company, but Chamath and I would say Sax pretty much openly say whatever they believe. Um, and I would say Freeberg and Calacanis are more censored, in my opinion, or more.

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  I feel like, I feel like Sax says what he wants. I feel like Calacan, Jason Calacanis kind of says what he wants to. I think Chamath is more censored than he's, he's ever been. Um, I think Freeberg is measured.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Freeberg is definitely the most measured and, and you're probably right about Calacanis. He just made jokes about Texas turning blue, right? So you're probably right in which, but when they first started All In, I personally believe he was much more censored um, than he is now, but Sax, I would say out of everyone is just the most more vocal and doesn't care.

• 1:12:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, but going back to the short form thing real quick.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  You and I are the opposite. We, we, we, we would be more, we're more, I would say we're more censored than even Freeberg.

• 1:13:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I want to also say like those of you that are maybe in your twenties listening to this, I think it's okay to learn short form and then learn all these formats and learn about typography and all those things, right? Neil and I are just a little older now, and I think the benefit you have to when you get a little older is you, you start to get more credibility over time. And that credibility actually balances out the, the need to have to follow all these trends and all these formats and all these things. And you can hire a strategist to help you with that. Um, there's nothing wrong with that. But even if you do hire a strategist, it doesn't work for me as much because I start to read the scripts or I start to look at these things. I just get more and more pissed off as I read them. Um, and sometimes these are really good people and really experienced people too, right? And they, they come with a strategy. You're like, yeah, we're just going to copy everyone else. I'm like, but I don't want to copy everyone else, so.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 1:13:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you got to figure out what works for you in marketing, like your own angle, right? Um, like for Eric and I, I would say in person, when we talk to most people, I know this podcast, sometimes we rant about a lot of random stuff.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  I, I would say nine out of ten times, we prefer to talk about marketing and business and just that. We don't really care about the other stuff. And when we're talking about subjects that we really care for, we love it. Like, if you wanted to talk, if, if we had to create content right now on SEO basics, I think both of, both of us, I can speak for myself for sure, though, we would hate it and it would be boring for us and we'd be like, man, get me out of here.

• 1:14:30Speaker 00

  You know, I was thinking about that, yeah. Finish, finish, go. You finish.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  But if we're talking about optimizing for agents like Muse, it's new, fresh, not just for the listener, but for us, we're genuinely interested in it because it's like exciting. It's something new for us as well. And we're in it, in the trenches, experimenting, playing around, and we're like, oh, cool, this is what's working for us. What is working for you? And that's the kind of stuff that we find really fun and you can tell that in the content and that's the kind of stuff you should try to ideally focus on.

• 1:14:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And by the way, if you're not excited, like the audience can tell that you're not excited, right? Like one thing I will say too, when I look at some of these short forms, I was, I was scrolling through it the other day. I'm like, some people are talking about some really basic stuff around AEO and SEO. And you can definitely do that. It's just, our excitement just wouldn't come out, right? Like we're just at, uh, you know, I, I think it comes down to like, one, what is, what excites you and also what stage of the career? Like what stage of career are you in right now too? Um, you know what's interesting? Um, Stephen Bartlett spoke here, the Dyrva CEO. Um, he spoke here, uh, yesterday, actually, right? So he spoke in the morning. And, um, one of the things he got was like, okay, um, he's like, I, I could, you know, my, my staff would often pitch me on, you know, interviewing this celebrity that has like a hundred seventy million followers.

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  And he's like, but I don't want to spend four hours doing the research before interviewing this person. And I don't want to spend another four hours with this person, right? And, and why would I do that? Like, it's just, it's not enjoyable at the end of the day. I want to talk to people I want to talk to. And the interesting thing, Neil, is he used to, it used to be all about business, but he's like, I'm more dynamic now. I don't want to just talk about business. I want to talk about other stuff as I get older, right? But that's what works for him. And so kudos to him for saying, for pushing back on, on his team and saying, I don't care about all the views. I want to talk to who I want to talk to because that's what I want to do. Um, and you know, the second thing too is also understanding that, hey, he's evolved. He doesn't want to just talk about business anymore. He wants to talk about other stuff. So to each his own, um, and, and, and that's what it is.

• 1:16:25Speaker 00

  I have one final thing here.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  And it's also really, go for it.

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  No, you, you, you go. You finish your thing because I have a little lag here. Then I have one more, one final thing. Go ahead.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  The, the, the cool part about interviewing, if you ever want to do podcast interviews, it actually takes a lot of work. Eric, uh, used to do it on the leveling up podcast. I don't know if it's still going. Um, he would spend a lot of time doing interviews with other people and you end up learning a lot. So if you pick the right people, right? Like he interviewed people like your rich BFF. And she would talk about stuff like, if you're not moving jobs every few years, you know, you should, uh, you're doing something wrong. And that kind of stuff would get him tons of views. The, I'm talking for Eric. He may disagree with this, but I bet he didn't learn anything from those kind of things. He did get views, but he didn't learn anything from interviewing those kind of entrepreneurs. But on the flip side, he's interviewed other entrepreneurs who are really successful. The clips didn't get tons of views,

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  but the knowledge he's gained has changed the way he operates his business or what he does or how he makes investments. And it has had a much bigger impact on his life, even though he didn't get the social views. So when you're creating the content and you're considering interviewing people, don't just optimize for views, optimize for impact. And the impact may not be shown by recognition.

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  Yep. The last thing I'll say too is, um, so at this event, right? Um, when we do these needs and leads like this, this, um, you know, we, we, people would kind of pitch, right? When you're pitching, if you're trying to sell something, a nice way to get no deals done is to have too many asks. Some people would have like three asks in one, right? So ideally you have like one clear offer, one clear need in one sentence. So people can understand you. But when you float like three different things like, oh, I have a fund over here, um, you know, I have this new startup over here. Um, and also by the way, we're hiring over here. It's hard to remember you, right? Um, that's just one thing that, that stuck with me. And, um, you know, anyway, all these things kind of combined together at the end of the day. So you take what you like, um, and Neil, anything else from your side?

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  That's it. Thanks for attending. Sorry that I'm in bed, but, um, there's no desk in this room, so I had to sit in bed.

• 1:18:28Speaker 00

  That's okay. All right. Catch you guys later. All right. Catch you guys later.