The True Economics & ROI of a Super Bowl Ad.

Neil and Eric break down the true economics and ROI of Super Bowl ads, explaining why they rarely make sense from a profit standpoint. They unpack real costs beyond the $7–10M media buy, debate short-term versus long-term impact, and compare Super Bowl advertising to digital ads, influencers, and low-fi content. The conversation also explores brand value, CAC, LTV, marketing efficiency, and why even the biggest companies avoid heavy spend on traditional ads in favor of scalable digital channels. Key takeaways • Super Bowl ads rarely deliver positive ROI • True costs often exceed $20–30M • Digital ads usually outperform on efficiency Chapters (00:00) Super Bowl ads ROI debate (02:16) True Super Bowl ad costs (03:15) Measuring brand value and ROI (05:11) Long-term marketing efficiency math (07:09) Digital ads vs Super Bowl ads (14:16) Why big brands avoid TV ads

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:37Speaker 01

  I already know it, but continue. I did a chart and a post on this a while ago, but it's terrible.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  So, why is it terrible?

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Super Bowl ads do not work out from a profit standpoint.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  So, get this. The, you know Ro, the health company, right? So, they did a post yesterday, you saw it on Twitter?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  Okay. So, they do, I think they do about 500 million bucks a year or so. Okay, so he actually wrote a post about this, the economics of a Super Bowl ad. So, check this out. So, he's gonna have Serena Williams, known as one of the goats of tennis, right? Or, it just can't be one of the goats, you're just the goat, right? Of tennis. And so, he's doing, he just kind of broke this down. So, he's like, "Look, you're not actually paying," and this is where we talked about it, "you're not actually, if it's 7 to 10 million dollars, you're not actually paying 7 to 10 million dollars. There's a lot more that goes into it." And I'm gonna, I'm gonna get to that. And then you can push back on some of these things that we've done, or that he's talking about here. But, he was just saying, "Look, the ads are a part of the product, but there's asymmetric upside." So, here's the table that he made over here. I know you like tables. So, assuming his marketing spend is 200 grand, sorry, not 200 grand, 200 million a year,

• 1:40Speaker 00

  the annual percentage you're spending on this ad is maybe 5%, right? And then you kind of go up. So, I think their spend is, it's, I think it's around here, 200, 300 or so.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Very, very few companies, Eric's showing a chart that goes up to 900 million a year. Very few companies spend 900 million a year on marketing.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  But, I would say, I mean, you would agree with this, that a lot of companies that are spending on these ads are spending a good chunk of money on marketing.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Much higher percentage than the 5%.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  Yes. Now, so, you know, first, let's talk about the full cost, which you've kind of addressed, and then let's talk about how he's breaking down the ROI in the short term and the long term benefits, because the Super Bowl is coming up. Sad that the Rams lost, but you know, it's okay. I still like the Seahawks. So... So when you look at the production cost of this thing, okay. Typically, okay, a 30 second ad, Neil, I'll let you answer this one first. How much would the 30 second ad spot cost initially? Just for the Super Bowl one, just the Super Bowl one, not all in.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  So when you say all in, are you talking about the other costs like production? Or are you talking about more ad buying?

• 2:42Speaker 00

  I'm just talking about, yeah, I'm not talking about the additional ad buy. I'm just talking about the Super Bowl ad buy, not including the production cost for the ad.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  It's typically less than $10 million.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so he's got it here. 30 second ad media cost is seven to $10 million, okay? Then he says production is one to $4 million, okay? Talent is one to five million because you're paying the influencer, right? And 64% of these ads last year had influencers. The total Super Bowl, you're paying nine to $19 million. I don't know where that comes from, but additional media spend, which we've talked about because the networks.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  The nine, he's doing seven, one for the commercial, one for the influencers. So he's saying low end is nine.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  So then the additional media spend that we're talking about where the networks require you to buy another shows, right? That's additional seven to 10. So your total committed media plus production spend, 16 to $29 million. So do you agree with the cost on that before we talk about measuring success?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I would say 16 is on the low end. Usually you see it, if you're going to do it, you're going to do it right. Typically, all the companies we've worked with, when we've done Super Bowl commercials, you're looking in the twenties.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  Okay, so exactly what he's saying, right? So 16 to 29, 16 on the low end, right? So how do you measure success here? So the value of a brand to a customer can generally be distilled down to two parts. One is an association with a set of values, so privacy, craftsmanship, the environment, status, wealth, et cetera. Number two, the reduction in uncertainty, trust that the company will deliver on the promises it makes. So you know, you don't want it to be like, brand awareness is not necessarily a brand value, right? A lot of people know Enron, for example. So what he's saying is that the way the economic value of a brand typically shows up is in one or a combination of the following. One, lower CAC, right? Lower cost of acquiring a customer through more efficient ad spend or word of mouth. Number two, premium pricing power. If there are two identical products, but people are willing to pay more for one because of the brand, the brand is driving additional LTV, lifetime value.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  And you have loyalty and retention, right? So just to wrap this up, then we can finally discuss. So how is Ro, again, they're the health company, they sell like, I think the ad is about GLPs, right, GLP ones. So the peptide that helps you lose weight. So how do we think about measuring the financial impact of the ad in the short and long term? So short term, it's all about tracking the conversion funnel from beginning to end across all touchpoints. So he's basically saying, okay, overall, zooming out from the moment our Super Bowl ad airs through the rollout of complimentary campaign elements, we will track the entire funnel. I'll save people from DDC metric diatribe. We tracked additional, we tracked traditional funnel metrics. This allows us to see the impact, the uplift over, over time, right? Holding as much content as possible.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  So long term, which I think I'm more interested in, and then we can talk about this, is you are now able to, um, short term impact is immediate customer acquisition. Long term impact is improved efficiency of future marketing spend, right? Because you have awareness and hopefully the idea here is that that one, two, three, four, five percent of marketing spend that they're spending on this, they'll drive further efficiency across the board. And to him, that $30 million bet is worth it for that. Like it either does nothing for it or it lifts it slightly and that's a lift across the board for all advertising. That's what he's saying.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we've done a lot of Super Bowl commercials. Um, we're eight years old now. I think we're going on nine, but we've done quite a bit. And what we found is it is great brand awareness. And most companies do look at it from the perspective that he is saying in which if you end up doing a Super Bowl ad, you get not just more brand awareness, but you get more brand loyalty or love, whatever you want to calling it, where in the long run, your conversion rates can go up and people are willing to pay more for you over the competition. But here's what companies don't really talk about.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Because on our end, if a company runs a Super Bowl ad through us, we make more money. And I'm usually the advocate telling them, don't do it. And that'll cost us money. And the reason I say that is what companies tend to forget is when you take all those brand dollars. And let's say you're gonna spend thirty million bucks. Because you have to remember, they usually make you, um, I've done it in the past. I'm assuming they're gonna do it this year, depending on the channel that Super Bowl's run on. But a lot of times they'll do things like make you buy ads for the Olympics, which are coming up really soon, right? In February, the Winter Olympics, assuming it's the same network. I don't know which channel the Super Bowl is playing on this year. So usually, uh, yeah, you would, you'd have to buy Olympic ads as well.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  If you just took that money and you bought Facebook ads, Google ads, influencer marketing ads, um, you know, you, you did more partnerships and you did a lot of things like that. We see not only a higher ROI, but you're also getting the brand love and affinity because you're getting so many impressions. And with the Super Bowl, yes, you're getting a lot of eyeballs, but we find that we can get way more eyeballs spending thirty million dollars on digital ads than we get from running a Super Bowl ad.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. So what I'll say is, is this, so he's actually got some, uh, you, you like these charts, long-term math, efficiency compounding, okay? So the more interesting math and the more, often more important happens over time. For the long-term analysis, we'll look at twelve-month time horizon. This is likely conservative, but it provides a clean frame. So let's imagine a company's annual spend and estimate that the Super Bowl increases the efficiency of that spend by one percent, three percent, five percent, and ten percent. As discussed, it could do this in a variety of ways, decrease the cost of traffic through higher performing ads, increase word amount. So he's just saying that it provides like a booster to everything, right? So the chart here shows that, you know, efficiency gained by marketing budget. So if your marketing budget is two hundred million dollars and then you gain one percent, um, you know, you're, you're, you're in the red here, right?

• 8:27Speaker 00

  Um, which is, you know, two million bucks. If you gain by three percent, then six million bucks, five Five percent, ten percent, it kind of just goes up from there, right? You got uh ten million bucks and then twenty million bucks over here. So that's the bet that he's making. I'm not sure Neil, because they're they're a three-year-old company, I believe. Um, I think this is their their first time running these ads. And so I don't know if this is just the math to kind of justify in his mind to run it. That's that's that's that's like, if this math worked out, great, right? But I don't think it's as simple as this.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  No, I'm assuming he hasn't done this before.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  I don't think he's done this before.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  I think A, he's totally off. I've done it so many times, dude, like.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  I I don't think he's done it before.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Because the other thing that companies don't think about is, dude, even LinkedIn had a post about this. This lady worked in the ads department of LinkedIn and she broke down the highest converting ads. What kind of ads do you think they were? Highly-produced ads with influencers or lo-fi content?

• 9:22Speaker 00

  Low-fi content.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yes, you nailed it. So if you think about how much companies spend doing a Super Bowl ad, Coinbase did one one time that was really low-fi.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  They bought a double. Remember, it's a sixty-second.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Uh huh. And then it was just a QR code moving around.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, and and they're number one for a day.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, they they did really well because people are like, what the heck is this? That's lo-fi. Cost is really low on that. But most companies don't do that. They spend an arm and a leg. When you take the cost of how much you have to spend on the Super Bowl, how much more you have to spend on other ads like Olympics, okay? How much you're spending to create the commercial? If you just take the majority of that money, almost all of it, and you spent it on digital ads and you did lo-fi content as your ad, your economics are way better because you're spending more money on reach than the actual creative and you're picking your audience instead of just blanketing most of the United States.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  And on top of that, I just asked ChatGPT or Google, actually, not ChatGPT.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it pulls from AI overviews, but same thing. What percent of publicly traded companies spend at least two hundred million dollars a year on marketing? And they couldn't give me a good answer, but they pretty much said it's generally reserved for like the top hundred companies. Right? And it's saying hundred to two hundred companies. But I don't think in the US you're even having two hundred companies spending over two hundred million a year annually on marketing. Um, I could be wrong. I'm just pulling this from the web. That's too big. It it his baseline is two hundred million dollars. That is not the normal spend on marketing by.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  You know, by most companies globally.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Like, that is just an extremely large number.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  I was trying to use perplexity for this, to do the research. And then, uh, how many companies spent over 200 million a year on marketing? Okay, you know what's funny, Neil? Uh, we'll, we'll come back to this. I had a nightmare yesterday. You wanna know what the nightmare was? Nightmare was I was getting on a long haul flight and I forgot my, my iPad was in the.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Oh, the container, security?

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  But, okay, so there's no public data set. Okay, what we can say with confidence, global ad spend is projected, okay, 1.5 trillion, whatever. Industry reports show that top 200 advertisers in the US alone accounted for over 130 billion dollars a year. Um, so, yeah, you're not. So, given that one country, the US already has 200 leading national advertisers, many of which cleared a 200 million threshold domestically. It is reasonable to estimate that hundreds of companies worldwide, on the order of a few hundred, not thousands, spend 200 million dollars a year. So, not many. So, here's what, he's, he's saying this.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  How many companies in the US spend over 130 or?

• 11:53Speaker 00

  This is an estimate. So, he's, so the best you can say, given available data, is that there are several hundred companies globally, not US, um, with annual marketing, um, advertising budgets greater than 200 million dollars. But no authoritative source gives an exact count.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's when I saw something.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Two hundred.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Is because it's like, he's saying minimum in that table, 200 to 900 million.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  These numbers are extremely large.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  So, he says this, right? So, he says, for a company spending 500 million annually on marketing and 2% improvement sustained over a year, effectively covers the full cost of Super Bowl ad, without counting any short-term acquisition out. So, I think this is well-written, but the point is, I think he's trying to justify it with these things that are actually not realistic.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  And I think you, like, the problem is, you, you should probably write this after you've done it. That's what I would say.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Dude, and I've been in the offices, speaking to CMOs and marketing executives all around the world for companies like Pfizer, Procter & Gamble, uh, Walmart, like, these are some of the biggest advertisers in the world, right? Pfizer and pharmaceuticals are more restricted on how they can do marketing, but they spend.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  And like, even then, I'm telling you, dude. Some of these companies that I mentioned, like, okay, they spend over a billion dollars. They're some of the biggest advertisers in the world. There's not too many companies like that.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  This guy is the CEO and co-founder of Ro.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  He's delusional on his metrics.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. So we'll see what happens. Um, Z, I'm, I, I hope you hit these metrics and then maybe prove us wrong because then we can have something else to talk about, but I, I don't think this is realistic.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  No, and, and not just that. What Z is not taking into account, and dude, we've done this side by side for so many corporations. If you just took the money that you spent and spent it digitally, you would have made a much better ROI. You would have got a lot of brand love. You would, people would get to know you, your target audience would more likely see it. And you'll generate way more revenue.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Yep. All right. So that's our little Super Bowl piece and I agree with that. And I do want to shift gears because Neil, I'm, I'm going to start creating this series now because I'm finding that the more.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  One, one thing before we shift to that topic.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  I have something that's similar.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  But um, I, I would love your take on it because I already know you're, you and I are going to think the same way. All right?

• 13:58Speaker 00

  We'll see.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  The largest companies in the world are like the Nvidia's, the Microsoft's, the Apple's, the Googles.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  You agree with this, right? The Amazons, there's not too many that are just multi-trillion dollar companies, Meta. All right? So when you think about traditional advertising, a lot of people, or when you think about advertising, a lot of people think Super Bowl, Olympics, FIFA World Cup, they even think sponsoring like jerseys, teams, okay? Uh, stadiums and all that kind of stuff. Would you agree with this statement?

• 14:29Speaker 00

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• 15:06Speaker 01

  If this form of marketing was so profitable and so effective, would you agree that these big corporations would start spending way more money on this kind of stuff?

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Yes, and they only do it for fun. When they do it, like Google, when they sponsor McLaren, the F1 team, that's almost for fun. It's actually a little logo there.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Totally agree, right? But do you agree that none of these guys really spend on any of these marketing channels like crazy? Because they just don't care?

• 15:31Speaker 00

  No.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  And it's because of ROI and it's not as effective as people think? If it really was, these large corporations, the largest corporations in the world, be running tons of these ads, taking up all inventory. Every damn stadium would be called the Microsoft Arena if it was that profitable.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  It isn't.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  There's only one Super Bowl ad I remember, and I feel like it's only the one you might remember too. Let's guess, okay? Let me guess for you. Is maybe the only Super Bowl ad you remember, the Oreo one?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Uh, I remember a lot of Super Bowl ads.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  But the one that comes to mind first?

• 16:01Speaker 01

  The Doritos one.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Oh, the Doritos one. I don't remember the Doritos one. I remember the Oreo one. But my point is, and then the Coinbase one, right? There's not, first, there's not that much brand recall, and a lot of these brands are doing it.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  GoDaddy, you remember that one?

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Uh, with Danica Patrick?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Uh-huh, uh, GoDaddy Girls before that. Also put GoDaddy on the map.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  It was risque.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, but like, still, a lot of these, like the Oreo one, like what happened to Oreo, right? Like, you know, it is what it is, right? So, um, was that a, that was a Super Bowl ad, right? The Oreo one? Oh, it was a tweet. It was a tweet. That was a tweet. Never mind. That was a tweet. So, anyway, all that to say is, your knowledge may vary. I think Z, I'm curious to see how your study goes in about, um, you know, a year or so after you do this evaluation. Um, but it was a good justification from your side, and I like the numbers and the charts. I think it convinces many people. Okay, so I want to jump over to this piece, because, and then I'll tell you kind of where I'm going with this. So yesterday, you saw me tweet something about how I did $50,000 of copyrighting work in 10 minutes. There is a reason that I'm doing this, and I'm going to almost be making more and more of these, um, these videos, and I'll tell you, I'll explain why maybe, because I think we did briefly touch upon it.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Now, you saw the copy between the old version on my site and the new version. So, um, and then you, being unbiased, you saw the old version. How would you rate the old version copy on my site, 1 through 10?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Like, honest?

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, honest.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Do you want me to just give you a number or give feedback?

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Just a number. I don't want feedback. I just want a number, yeah.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  I would say it's like a four or five.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Okay, and then, and Neil, give me, Neil saw the new version too, where I was kind of going through a video. The new version is better. I wouldn't say it's top tier, but I would say it's better. What would you say?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  I would say your new version is more like a seven.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Okay, great, which is a lot, right?

• 17:41Speaker 01

  It's a good improvement. There's mistakes in it, and I can always break them down if you want.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  So, this, what I'm calling out here is this whole, you know, fifty thousand dollars of copywriting work in ten minutes. This prompt was generated off of the legendary David Ogilvy, Eugene Schwartz, Claude Hopkins, and it did a few rewrites, right? And this is like my initial version. It actually does a few rewrites and it keeps rewriting until it feels like it's a ninety out of a hundred. And I can actually tune it even more. But I have a prompt before that that does like a page CRO thing, right? So my point of saying this is that this, if I can get something at a seven or eight with copy, me as a marketer, I can refine it to eight or nine, right? I just need a starting point. Oftentimes, like, we just, like, even with the ideas from this podcast, we just need a starting point, you know? And then we can work off of it. So now, not only did I do that, Neil, that's not, that's not the point that, hey, guys, oh, I did this, like, this, this copywriting piece.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  My point is, the SEO work, the forty-five thousand dollars of programmatic SEO work that I did in twenty minutes the week before, that actually ended up being like, you know, four times the amount. So let's call it a hundred eighty thousand or something like that, because people like big numbers. That was done in about an hour or so, right? The thing is, earlier, earlier this week, we were supposed to, because I did some math on Carrot. I'm like, dude, it keeps driving more customers, but we're not driving any ads on it. I'm like, am I stupid? And so I did a-

• 18:54Speaker 01

  You're not driving any ads on it?

• 18:55Speaker 00

  We weren't driving ads for Carrot. Remember the account-based marketing tool?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Oh, you're saying you're not running any ads?

• 19:00Speaker 00

  We're not running ads for it, yeah. That's what I mean. Thank you for that. So I'm like, I went to Claude, I'm like, hey, based on all my goals, and you know how we're trying to hit revenue higher for tech-enabled services this year, like, am I stupid? Like, what should we be putting more dollars towards? It's like, yes, you should be putting dollars towards it, right? So, anyway, I create this whole go-to-market strategy with Carrot Ads, and then it's nicely done together. I do it very quickly, probably twenty, thirty minutes or so. I'm like, this looks good. I refine it a little bit. I send it to my CTO. He sends it to the person working on ads, right?

• 19:30Speaker 00

  I poop you not. Okay, I'm not even gonna cuss. I poop you not, right? That was two weeks ago. Like, two days ago, it was still not up. I was like, you know what? What's the holdup, guys? Right? So I check in, I'm like, oh, um, the ad, the creative team, um, you know, they're, they're, um, they're behind right now, whatever. I'm like, okay, that's fine. I'll tell you what, I got it, right? So I was just like, I got it, right? It's like, oh, I have a planner. Don't worry, I got it, right? Twenty minutes goes by, I'm on Manus, and I'm like, looking at the ads and all that, boom, four new variations. I just, I just get the ads up, right? So my point of saying all this is not necessarily my team, my team's very busy, they're great, right? It's not, I'm not even blaming them, right? I'm just saying that the world that we're going into

• 20:12Speaker 00

  is not so much about the task that we do right now. The evolution of tasks is changing. And if anybody says, like, you tell me, like, imagine if I'm working for you, you're working for me. You can't say that anymore because the tasks are changing and you're able to do a lot of these things quicker. I'm not saying it's, it's top tier quality initially, but the speed, right? It's, it's no longer about, we talked about this, like radiologists and nurses, like, it's not about reading charts anymore. It's about, now it's about other tasks that you're working on. That's my point. And that's where this is going, is I'm just gonna make a lot of videos on how I'm doing these tasks quickly now, and just gonna keep publishing them.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  I thought it was a good piece of content that you publish. I didn't know how you got to the forty-five thousand dollars worth, but I can see companies spending an arm and a leg on it. Bless you, Noah.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  Bless you.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  You know, but I know internally, you can do it for much cheaper than forty-five or fifteen grand, or even ten grand. But I know a large company would pay even more than fifty grand for a homepage copy. And I look at this, the, the bigger issue here, you may disagree with me or not, I look at it as a team problem. In which your team should have had better copy in the first place. But I know your pain, because when you, as you grow and scale your organization, It's hard to hit up a random person or a few random people and always get what you're looking for.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  But because of AI, there's no excuse for them to not give you the stuff really quickly. And there's no excuse for them to not run your ads ASAP.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  That's why our mandate is Claude, it's not even AI fluency, it's Claude code fluency in the next six months or so. Because it's unacceptable to say these things, right? So I'm still not going to blame the team because they're still kind of figuring this stuff out. And so, but in the next couple of months or so, like, yeah, like the chickens will come to roost, right? Like this, this stuff matters. And let me just ask you real quick, because we're like, my point initially was like, hey, guys, like, you have to figure out how to even, if you're still doing the same task in 12 months or so, that's actually a very negative signal, right? So let me ask you, you have, let's just give or take, you have about a thousand staff right now. What percent of your staff do you think are on top of these things?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Uh, as in learning Claude code? Or just learning on top of things and getting like stuff done?

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Acceptable AI fluency.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  I would say the majority, more than 50%.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  That's interesting because our other mutual friends who I talk to, they're like, they might have different standards of you, but they're like, it's like 5%, 10%. And when I talk to like Zapier or Gamma, it's like, it was, maybe it was at like 5, 10% before, but even right now, it's like 65%.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  So to be very clear, when I look at AI fluency internally, we measure it based on, do they have AI fluency for what their role is in the organization and what they're doing?

• 22:47Speaker 00

  We look at it the same.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Eric has amazing AI fluency. We do not expect someone who's just focusing on on-page SEO to have the same AI fluency as Eric. Because Eric is doing a lot of stuff, design, copywriting, you know, uh, developing products, uh, coding, building free tools. He's doing a lot of stuff that we wouldn't have a certain specialist do. But if they're specializing in a certain thing, whether it's creating content or uh, creating social content or doing on-page SEO, and they're not using AI really well, we got a problem. And they either A need to learn it and we help them learn it. And if they can't get there, then there's a bigger problem.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  All right, bye.